Nuanced. - 43. Dr. Geetanjali Gill: Responsibilities of a Citizen & Global Development

Episode Date: February 21, 2022

Geetanjali Gill is a mother, wife, researcher, associate professor at the University of the Fraser Valley and Gender and Development Consultant.  Geetanjali studied in Canada and the UK in the field of International Development Studies.  She has taught international development studies courses at the University of Sussex (UK), as well as at Simon Fraser University and Kwantlen Polytechnic University. In addition to her academic teaching, Geetanjali has worked for more than 16 years as an international development practitioner and researcher in the UK, Sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia, and North America.  Geetanjali continues to engage in international development consultancies, working most recently with HelpAge International, Right to Play International, Canadian Foodgrains Bank, the British Council, and United Nations.  She has also worked with donors such as Global Affairs Canada and the European Union, as well as with the Government of Mauritius.  Geetanjali actively engages with international NGOs that are based in BC and Canada, and she is a member of the BC Council for International Cooperation (BCCIC), United Nations Association in Canada-Vancouver Branch (UNAC-V), Canadian Association for the Study of International Development (CASID), and Canadian Association of Development Professionals (CAIDP).Chapters: 0:00:00 Introduction 0:02:02 What is a Citizen?  0:23:51 The Role of Adversity  0:41:47 Having a National Identity 0:47:43 Gender & Development 1:20:24 What Courses Does Geetanjali Teach? 1:47:44 International Development Practitioner & Researcher 2:07:42 Understanding Developing Countries 2:17:00 Family Life 2:35:17 Choosing UFVSend us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

It's a pleasure to sit down with you today. I am really passionate about educating listeners and making sure that they understand their role not only here in the Fraser Valley, but more broad and understanding your role as a citizen across Canada, understanding what's going on in the world. And I think that that's something UFE seems to show an interest in by making this course more mandatory because I think that. that we can get lost in what's going on locally, what's going on in our community, what's going on in our province, what's going on in Canada, and then we kind of forget about the world around us. And I think the beauty of Canada was that we're bringing in cultures and communities from all diverse backgrounds. But for some reason, it feels like along the way we lost that or we were not keeping up with that the way we should. I feel like there's a lot of global events

taking place that I'm not well versed in, that I feel like having someone like yourself on who's kind of dedicated your life to understanding global issues and situating people in what's kind of taking place and explaining that responsibility to people I think is so, it's valuable. It's, it gives us that responsibility that I think encourages us to take up our responsibilities, to understand why we have these rights. So to start off, would you mind giving listeners a brief introduction of yourself? Sure. Well, as I mentioned, my name is Gytangeli, and I'm a mother. I'm an assistant professor in global development studies at the University of the Fraser Valley. And I'm also a gender and development practitioner.

So I think we will probably talk about, dig into that a little bit, what that means. Yeah. And I also am involved in quite a few different community groups. I'm on the Advisory Council for the United Nations Association of Canada for their lower mainland BC branch, as well as several other global networks that focus on gender, issues, but also development issues. Right. That is so interesting. So can you, can we start off with just understanding what do you think the role of a citizen is? What do you think we can do or what our responsibilities are in our everyday lives? Because I think we think of like, oh, I vote every four

years or I participate by voting in this. But our responsibilities, I think, are greater than that. And that's not something to like shrug your shoulders at. It's actually an opportunity to have your voice heard and to make a positive difference. So can you tell us your thoughts on what a citizen is. Definitely. I think that's a great question. And I think there's so many different levels to this. And this is what I love about teaching global development studies and interacting with students at the university and talking exactly about this. Because, you know, like you mentioned, we are citizens locally for our local neighborhood, our local community, our province of BC. We're citizens of Canada as a country. But then also, you know, we have to remember that we're

global citizens and what does that mean? So that's something that I always speak to my students about and I love actually having assignments where students break that down and let me know what does a global citizen mean to them and how do they interpret that because it's really quite fascinating. You know, quite often students will talk about how they feel a belonging to their local community and a lot of them will tell me, well, I'm taking development studies courses or I'm interested in global development studies because I want to better understand what's happening elsewhere in the world.

And so I always feel it's so important to remind students that you are a citizen locally. You're a citizen nationally, but you're also a citizen of the world. And making those connections and trying to make connections between what's happening locally around you and what might be happening

globally and trying to build bridges and trying to see the connections between maybe what actions we do here locally. how that has a greater impact not only in our country, but also an impact globally and seeing those connections. And then also realizing that a lot of the issues that concern us here locally are issues that concern people and communities elsewhere as well. So isn't this a great opportunity to understand that issues sometimes that we're fighting for, social justice issues, for instance,

are not issues that just concern us. They concern large swaths of the population around the world and what isn't it, you know, a great opportunity, but also a great way to sort of, you know, have an impact on these issues by building bridges, being allies, linking up movements across the world that are fighting for very similar things, fighting for equality, fighting for inclusion. So that's what I always try to get across in the classes that I teach in global development studies. And I love to see how students start to make those links. So quite often I will ask them to reflect upon an issue that's important to them here locally, but then also trying to make connections between that issue and issues happening elsewhere in the world.

Well, what are the root causes? And quite often you'll find that the root causes for social injustices are the same, no matter where you are talking. Yeah, and just trying to show them how, you know, in many instances, when people have linked up, you know, here sitting in Canada, we can be allies for people facing very similar issues. issues in other parts of the world. And isn't that wonderful? Isn't that great? And I think that global perspective and being able to make linkages between the local and global is what makes us global citizens. And I think that will strengthen globally our abilities to come up with solutions for the pressing challenges that we have in the world today. Yeah, and can offer really

effective solutions as well. And I think it also sparks a lot of ideas as well. So for instance, we're always talking about the fact that, you know, the traditional way of practicing development was always that we would be here in the global north coming up with wonderful solutions and ideas and then we'd be trying to impose them elsewhere. But it's not just that. You know, it's a two-way process. Also, there are wonderful things happening in communities in countries in the global south, which can teach us things as well. So that sort of, you know, understanding that it's trying to have a global perspective and understanding, but not trying to impose your ways or your knowledge systems on others, trying to find out what the knowledge systems or practices are locally and see how

that meshes or how that's different from your own can be a great place to spark ideas and solutions. I think that that is one really good example because I think that we start to, I don't know, have egos when we've attended an educational institute that we feel like, well, now I know. Now I have the answers. I've looked at the literature, and now I can tell you how to fix your communities. And when I think of like, it's a good thing that indigenous communities now have more democratic processes of elections. We lost kind of our old ways, and that's when you hear about ideas of like hereditary chiefs. But there's a lot of knowledge that was there that was overlooked or underestimated a lot. I'm currently working on a paper for First Nations economic

development and realizing that we had trade routes and the Ulican trails existing far before the fur trade and there's just assumptions made that indigenous people couldn't have had their own processes for trade they couldn't have had plans for how to grow their community that that didn't exist because like Johnny McDonald described us as savages so if you're a savage then you don't know what you're doing and so these assumptions they kind of limit your understanding and And one of my big interests now is trying to see how do indigenous beliefs and, like, Christian beliefs or like the underlying mechanisms that run our society today, how do they overlap? Because I think there's been too much striving to figure out how they're different and placing one over here and one over there. And I think that when you see that we have a flood story and Christianity has a flood story, when you think we have salmon ceremonies and Christian religions have grace.

or some form of giving thanks, that you see more of an overlap and you have a greater appreciation when you see, oh, we're not that different, that we're not completely separated. And I think that that's something you likely face when you're trying to have these conversations is don't underestimate these other communities or these other countries just because they're not where you are today. Exactly. But I love that example you gave because it's also trying to get people to understand and appreciate that there are things we have in common with different people around the world as well.

So our common bonds, you know, things that bind us, but also to respect difference at the same time. Exactly. So what has the reception been like? Because I think of in your classes, I think of like myself and where I would have been trying to take these courses. And I see myself being the person who's like, oh, like voting. Like all my friends kind of go, what's the point? Like my vote isn't going to swing an election. My vote isn't going to change the outcome.

And what I've gotten more interested in is realizing that you vote in so many different ways. every single day. You vote when you shop on Amazon, whether or not you choose to buy from there or a small business. You might think, oh, I only spent $10, so what is that? But if you think about how many times you do that a week per month, per year, that these companies, these organizations are very interested in what your habits are and what direction. And so you do influence algorithms. You influence how businesses pivot themselves every day with every purchase you make. And so you have a lot more influence than I think people realize. And I don't know why. but it feels like we're often discouraged from thinking that we have a voice.

And when people try and tell us, oh, you should go vote, it's very tisk, tisk if you don't vote, you're a bad person. It's not like, well, you have something important to say. And that's what I've tried to get across with different guests, is like figure out what your passion is and then figure out a way to share that because we're all better off if you do. It's not just you. If you start your business and you have a restaurant, well, we get to try your food now. We get to learn about your culture.

If you do certain things, if you choose to figure out what you're good at and then share that, we all know more, we do better, and we become more strong as a community as a consequence. So what has the reception been like in your classes? Do you feel like you have to kind of pull them back in and convince them that this matters? Because that's what I experience, I guess, with some of my peers. Yeah, that's a really great question. I think part of it is that. Maybe some students don't realize actually what role they can play. And so you're talking about making changes, influencing change through consumer behavior, but also I don't think we can underestimate the impact of us being, you know, sort of opening our minds to being more, you know, to having a global perspective.

But I think what that does, it sort of allows us to be more inclusive, to be more receptive of difference, you know, to understand also perhaps that there are certain groups in our society here in Canada, but also in other societies and other parts of the world, where, you know, they are being excluded. They are being marginalized. And trying to, you know, even though we might have a voice, so trying to encourage students to realize you've got a voice, you're able to voice, to voice your. opinion, but there might be groups in your society or groups in other parts of the world that don't have an ability to voice their opinion. So we should really, you know, seize that opportunity, I think, to, to, I suppose, you know, use those freedoms that we have here. We have incredible access here to certain resources, certain services, but I also want students to realize that that doesn't mean that every group living here in Canada has equal access or equal ability to make use of

certain resources and services in their society. So I think what it is is making students realize that even a change in perspective, having a more inclusive, nuanced understanding of issues in their local communities, but also then linking that to global issues, will, I think, possibly spur on A lot of solutions, a lot of solutions that we seek in the global development sector is actually just about having a shift in perspective. So that's what I always try to encourage in my classes, for sure. It's not just necessarily what students can tangibly do, or it may not be that you're going to see an impact necessarily for having a different perspective. But that in the long run, you know, I always talk about root causes of injustice or marginalization. what is it? And quite often it revolves around certain societal beliefs or certain norms in your

society that can lead to certain groups being, you know, facing discrimination. So I don't think we can underestimate at all what pushing our perspectives to be more inclusive and more global can do for the world. Right. Do you think that that's something that's easy for people to get on board with? Or do you think that that's something that people are hesitant? Like, it just seems like at least when, again, when I was in university, I was very, I think, small-minded and very, like, what am I going to do? Like, what are my thoughts going to impact? And so do you ever run into that with your students where they don't feel like that inspirational, you're saying it as an inspirational message of like, you can do, you can be so much more if you understand your

role. And do you ever get pushback or perhaps like? Not pushback, but maybe like what you said, surprise. Oh, that's all that's required? You know, I think sometimes students, think that, you know, to solve problems or to be a better global citizen, they have to tangibly actually be implementing things or doing things. No, it's actually simple things of just being a more inclusive, respectful person in the world can achieve great things. So I think when students see that quite often I boil down these huge global issues and I boil it down to really simple things of just changing the way you think and trying to influence others also to be you know, more inclusive and more less biased or less prejudiced, you know, to think about maybe what

our own internal biases might be and to challenge that, it's, that's sort of the root cause of many of the injustices we see in the world. So if I can even get students to think about that, and I think that's what surprises a lot of students, is that when we boil down global issues, we always seem to come back down to ways of thinking that are, are discriminatory or biased, can we challenge that? You have to start with yourself first, and then hopefully be an ally with others who are still marginalized or voiceless in the world and fight for them and advocate for them. Yeah, I think of like how people approach things and like that's the whole idea of university, right, is to you're going to have good and bad

from your parents. You're going to have them tell you certain good things about the world and perhaps they teach you entrepreneurship is a great thing and you should go become an entrepreneur but then they leave you with certain baggage that they haven't processed issues from their parents or their grandparents and they've just passed on these negative messages of how the world is of what to expect um like you're never going to be able to beat people there's there's going to be people out there we're going to take advantage of you we kind of like pass on stereotypes and negative negative mentalities about other people and then you start carrying that and you don't realize that you're carrying it you don't go what what are they

good and what are the bad and how do I sift it out and figure out what's good and bad you kind of just move forward and the idea of university is to take you and go okay this is how things are this is like look at the statistics on if you treat people in this way you're disadvantaging them and they can offer just as much like one of your interests is women in the workplace and there was huge negative perceptions of the idea of women coming into the workplace and just assumptions made about the role of women and then that change do you want to elaborate on that, but perhaps you can say it better than I can. Well, I'm very passionate about this issue.

I mean, I think gender inequalities and gender biases are one, what's the word, pervasive form of discrimination around the world. I probably got interested in looking at gender issues and kind of made it my area of specialty probably because of what I saw personally. So, I mean, I grew up here in Canada. I was born here. my parents immigrated from India. And I, you know, I think it was interesting for me because we used to travel back to

India regularly to go visit family and relatives. And I could see that I was growing up in a country here in Canada where it was the norm. It was the expectation that girls and boys should both equally be able to achieve things that they want in life. But I saw that back in India, it wasn't necessarily the case at all. so I and but then even so having said that my parents came from India so they were also bringing with them their own you know norms and beliefs and attitudes from India but yet I was being born I was born here I was being raised here so I had a lot of friction with my family as well trying to push

back on their expectations for me and I don't think it's necessarily that my parents may be valued my brother more than me, but I could still see that they had these, you know, beliefs that they brought with them, which didn't gel with me. Why are there different expectations for girls and boys? I couldn't comprehend that. I couldn't understand that. And I had to fight every day because of that. So I personally became interested in gender issues, I think, because I was immersed in that fight myself personally, and I could see, you know, that in much of the world, at least here in Canada, things aren't perfect by any means. Gender biases, gender stereotypes still operate here for sure. But I increasingly saw that in many

parts of the world, it seemed hopeless. It seemed hopeless for women and girls. And I was just distressed by that. How could that be? Because I think myself personally, I could feel bits of it. And then I just started to imagine, if I was living there, I couldn't even speak back to my parents. I couldn't even, you know, it's, it's, I would have been like the outlier in my society in India. I was trying to push back on some of these really patriarchal norms. And I probably would have been thrown out of my family and exclude it. In fact, that is what happens in much of the world. You know, those patriarchal norms are so dominant.

So I think, you know, the gender equality issue is one that sort of sparked that interest initially for me to fight against inequality and injustice. But now, and increasingly, as I've been working in the field, I've been finding it's not just looking at it through the lens of gender. I always talk and I teach my students about having an intersectional lens. Gender is one aspect. So, I mean, there are many different social categories in different societies in which we are categorizing people or even identifying ourselves. So, I mean, gender could be one. Sexuality could be one. Your race, your ethnicity, your religion.

all of these things play a role in terms of your experience in that society. You know, and I think certain groups of people who probably have certain multiple overlapping social identities can face greater challenges and greater inequalities in their communities and in their societies. So realizing that you need a very intersectional look at trying to find out, why certain groups are being left behind or being excluded by others or why those groups are facing discrimination, it's not an easy task. Quite often, you'll find it's for various different reasons. They could have several different social identities that are leading to inequalities for them. Right. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that looked like

for you? Were you like underestimated? Were you being like told like you don't need to worry about these things? What did that look like in terms of your life? Because I think it's so beautiful to see people face adversity and then try and make that their life, like find, find passion, find meaning in addressing that issue. And so I'm interested in more about your circumstances. I always joke about that. I always say to my parents, I thank them now for making me fight for these things, because that's really what led me down this path. I think if we personally either see or experience, and that's why also I tell my students, even if they themselves personally feel disconnected from issues happening in the world, or they can't

understand the viewpoint to someone who's been excluded because they themselves have sort of grown up with privileges. You have to get out and move around and meet people, all different kinds of people, all different kinds of groups here in your own local community, but also globally. And if you do so, you will actually be able to speak with and understand people from very different backgrounds, very different vantage points who have faced challenges. So getting back to your question, know about myself, yeah, I think that, you know, definitely not only the gender issue, so I know I fought very hard with my parents from a young age about, you know, simple things. Like, it wasn't even like, you know, I think, I don't think my parents had different expectations for us, but I could see

that quite often they would revert back to, you know, viewpoints that boys have certain roles, So, for instance, one example, you know, if we had guests coming to the house, I was expected to help my mother in the kitchen, to prepare tea and serve it to the guests. Well, my brother could go fool around outside and go play outside and, right, like simple things like that would get under my skin. And it's not that I don't think my parents, you know, it's not that they felt, you know, that I was to be a housewife because they certainly pushed all of us, myself and my brother, to, to, you know, be educated and do well in life. So, but it's just those little things can still wound you. Of course, because you think of like in that moment, you're not thinking about it, like, how that's going to impact you long term. And you kind of go like, well, why can I?

Like, what's the difference between him and I? Exactly. It's just the fact that a difference was being made. Yeah. Why? Yeah. And I think that that shapes people, like, you don't get to choose what shapes you as a person. You don't get to choose those little moments that seem to stay in your mind and, like, like,

what somebody says to you in passing. And then you go kind of like, oh, that, I didn't like that. And it eats away at you. But the person who said it, if you asked them a week later, they're like, I don't remember that I said that. Exactly. Exactly. So I had so many discussions with my mother. She went, I never meant that.

Did I really do that? Did I really say that? I think really, quite honestly, a lot of times people aren't aware that they are differentiating and what impact that could have on you. But I don't regret any of it. I actually am so grateful that I personally could see that and experience that because that's given me a really great understanding for what, you know, differentiation can do and having that lens and applying that lens to whatever group of people I might be working with in the community in whichever country I'm in, having that really that solid understanding that we need to understand, you know, biases and norms and how that's affecting

different groups of people. Yeah. I'm interested in your thoughts on where do we find that balance? Because I think of like my circumstance. If you look at my, I don't know, my factors, you can think like, well, I have a mother who struggled with FASD, my grandmother went to Indian residential school. And you look at the overrepresentation of indigenous people in the criminal justice system. And you start to go, like, what track are you on? Like, you start to look at this. And for me, going through high school and then university, I really fought against people talking about it in this way because I was like, I'm not that. And like, it was frustrating because it feels like at least with indigenous communities, we talk about

them like they're crippled. And I've never enjoyed that. I think we talk about Indian residential schools. We talk about the 60s school, but we don't talk about the beauty of the culture, the flavors of the cuisine, the beauty of the language. And so we get this, I don't know, unbalanced approach where growing up I was very adamant that I am not a victim. I am not in this negative circumstance where you can look at me like I'm wounded and that I need a savior to come and fix all my problems for me. And when I talk about indigenous, communities, I want people to think of it in the lens of like, watch us bounce back. Like, watch us turn this around, watch us get back on our feet and start, like, cannabis isn't

my favorite example, but it's an example of indigenous communities outpacing the province in terms of our ability to find good regulations within our communities because we don't have to follow the province's guidelines. And communities have like really taken to that and tried to develop faster than the province has been able to. And I think that that's an example of indigenous community is trying to outpace the province. And I don't know if we want zero struggle for people because it sounds like that's how people get shaped. And it's what makes them find their passion. And I think of some of my, I'm a, like, my music genre is definitely rap. And like the main thesis of almost all the songs I listened to is like, I was at rock bottom and then I

overcame it. And so there's like, there's a certain amount of struggle you want people to have, but you don't want them to be removed from the game entirely. Yes. And so how do you go about finding that balance? Yeah. That's a great question. question i you're right you don't want to eliminate that struggle like i said to you i am really happy about all my struggles um but at the same time too is it really fair that certain groups are having to struggle you know so it's it's it's it's a difficult one i think you know in development studies i mean so many things that you've just addressed hit a lot of the issues that i try to get across in uh you know the discipline of development studies i've also

not wanting to see groups that are marginalized as victims, they are fighting back. They fight back every day. And that's something so important, you know, probably really important for me in any kind of global development course that I teach, is to not assume that a certain group doesn't have agency, but also to question, are you as a wealthy person from the global north in any way making things harder for this country or this group of people, or the way that you're practicing development studies, are you making things harder or are you being a true ally? You know, trying to amplify the struggles and voices from these groups. Or are you just trying to come in and impose and say, I'm the savior and do what I tell you to do and everything will be better? So, yeah,

there's a lot of intricate issues there. Yeah, I think of like Britain imposing their approach to so many countries, including India, and then leaving and then having like half a system in place that they didn't fully adopt. And same with indigenous people. And our rules, we didn't 100% adopt them because we didn't understand why they were being brought in. And I try and explain that in regards to like our voting system. Like Shiam First Nation here in Chiloha, they just did a recent election. And they had, I thought they did such a good job because they took the best of both worlds. They had the election policies that kind of governments have perpetuated onto indigenous communities, but they had elders ask the members running questions,

and then they had to give full, written out, long form answers, and it was done by the elders, and that would have been how it was done prior to colonization. And so there was like a perfect, I felt like, meshing of the two systems so that they worked for both people, but it had to take the indigenous people like pulling it back in and re-adopting it in order to start to get those benefits out of it. And so we have these so many countries like you think of Afghanistan and we again imposed ourselves and then kind of realized, well, we're not fixing it the way we thought we were going to fix it in this short time span and it didn't work. And so what are your viewpoints on how we go about doing these things? Yeah. Well, that's what I talk about today in all my classes

is, you know, thankfully the development sector in terms of the way, well, the way we study global development issues, but the way we practice in this sector of, you know, development assistance or foreign assistance or humanitarianism is really now all the talk is about decolonizing the sector. We talk about decolonizing in Canada as well, but in global development, it's a huge, you know, probably the biggest, not even debate anymore. It's all understood that we need to decolonize the sector. We need to decolonize the way we're working. We need to stop imposing these Western notions of even what development means upon others. We are supposed to be allies advocating for and trying to limit our impacts as the Global North on the Global South,

but we have to allow there to be space and to a certain degree financing for local solutions to local problems in these countries. But yet still recognizing those historical legacies of colonization and trying to do something about that. Right. So what are your, like, can we talk about some global issues? I know the Amazon has been a big one in terms of, what do we do? Because you don't want to impose yourself, but at the same time, if we have much more damage to that area, there's not much of a conversation left to be had about if we are

actually as a society trying to address climate change. And I interviewed Sammy Ken, who's a chemical engineer, and he described. the Amazon as like one of the lungs of the planet. And I think that that's apt. But what do we do then? Like how do we approach a problem like that when we don't want to impose ourselves? And I know there's been environmental organizations trying to donate, say, take the money instead of destroying the forest. But the deforestation has, I just interviewed Lee Harding.

And he said the deforestation has even increased over the past year in comparison to any other year so far. So like what are your thoughts on how we go about addressing complex problems like that? Yeah. I mean, again, I would probably come back to this whole idea. Now, you know, when we are talking and looking at climate change, this whole idea of climate justice, you know, activists from the global south arguing that the countries that are feeling the brunt of climate change are the countries that are probably contributing the least to it. So again, I agree with you. You know, deforestation in the Amazon is a huge issue. There are political issues there. There are economic issues, you know, for the the countries in the global south that are allowing this to occur. So definitely I agree that putting pressure on the governments in these regions is still important. But having said that, are we doing enough to look at ourselves? Like, are we doing enough to look at what the global north is contributing to climate change? Are we making any changes or sacrifices in our way of living here in the global north? Because we know even today that it's still the

global north that is contributing the most to climate change. But unfortunately, it's populations living in the global south who are getting the worst repercussions of it currently. Although we have felt it ourselves here in BC now. We had floods. We've had wildfires. It's touching home, very close to home for us in the global north as well. So a lot of people are asking, well, is that what is going to make us now sit up and actually do something about our own actions here in the Global North. And that's been something that activists in the Global South have been calling for for a long time. So I, you know, I'm torn with this issue. I always tell my students for a lot of these global issues, we here in the Global North are actually contributing more than we

think. Yeah. So examine our own role. But also, that doesn't mean that we can't fight and advocate on, you know, together as allies with, you know, environmental groups in Brazil that are also fighting for their environment. Why not make those linkages with us here in the north and then they're in in Brazil and fight together? But I don't want that to overshadow us from being introspective and realizing that we here also need to make changes to our lifestyles, to our own policies that we have here in Canada, to battle some of those global issues. I couldn't agree more. I get stuck because it's like it's so like I got frustrated, I guess, with the floods here because I saw politicians leaping at the opportunity to blame climate change when we know that the dike was one

out of four in terms of its rating and then they're using it as like a talking point that it's really not our fault if we just had like stopped climate change then we wouldn't have these problems and it's like what you like our governments made they got rid of the sumass river and then they didn't maintain the dikes that were supposed to prevent the sumass lake from sorry sumas lake from coming back and so that was like to me a government failure and then they leaped on the opportunity to blame climate change to abdicate their own responsibility to the maintenance of the dikes and like it's obviously a complex issue but I see the the frustrations of both sides of the climate conversation of because I saw a post on Facebook of people being like

this is an evidence of climate change and it's like well you're I guess you're right in that like if we had to maintain the dice we don't know what would have happened if they were properly geared but that doesn't make climate change as a whole not obviously an issue and so you get this it's like a complex conversation and people are trying to simplify it down to a one or a zero. And always pushing the blame elsewhere and not wanting to put the money where it's needed to address these things. Yeah, that's not only applicable to what you just mentioned about the dikes, but also very applicable to a lot of these global development issues today.

Yeah. And so I'm interested to continue this conversation on the role of citizens. Do you feel like there's a good route to go about approaching complex problems? Do you feel like we are doing better, or do you feel like we're less active as citizens today than we were, like, you think of like the Vietnam War and people standing up and voicing their distaste, their frustration with that war? And you think of like the movements that had taken place in regards to that in comparison to now. I do feel like there's people vocalizing and using their rights, but it doesn't feel like we're as informed, as thoughtful in our conversations. I don't see as many high-quality debates where you get the best on one side and the best on the other side to really hash out issues. Do you feel like we're moving in a better direction in regards to our discussions?

Yeah, that's a great question. I suppose it depends where we are. Like, I've seen some wonderful evidence of, you know, grassroots movements, very well-informed movements in, you know, different countries in sub-Saharan Africa, for instance. that are lobbying their governments on certain issues really effectively. But yet I can see what you're saying also. I can also see where, you know, we might see protests, but badly informed people who are not really even aware of what they're actually protesting. So I don't know. I think that's a hard one.

I think it really depends. I see examples that really inspire me. And then I see examples where, you know, it's exactly what you said, where I, you know, it's exactly what you said, where I feel like we're protesting, but do we even know what we're protesting? And then sometimes you're protesting, but it doesn't, it's not followed up or done in such a way that you're actually influencing or affecting change at a government or policy level. So, you know, that's something that probably people study a lot in development studies is what is that advocacy role like?

How do we bring about change where it's needed, you know, with government actors or policy makers, You know, because a lot of issues that we work on in development studies actually just a class I had last week, we were looking at education challenges in countries in the global south and how badly they've been affected with COVID and school shutting down for years is that, you know, while it's important to work at a grassroots level and to mobilize and to have a voice, you equally have to work at that higher level of trying to affect change with those so-called decision makers. You need to work at all those different levels, you know, from bottom to up. And that's what's so challenging about it. Yeah, because I think of like Rebecca and I watched the Martin Luther King Jr. documentary. And the way that he controlled his protest and talked to, like, he was like, if you're going to fight a police officer, if you're looking for violence, you're not attending. We're not doing that. If the police start to come at us, we kneel.

And like his organizational skills in regards to that was so, it feels like that's what's missing in some of these protests, is having a good, conscious, thoughtful person able to kind of navigate and have those conversations. And I interviewed Scott Sheffield, who's a military historian and was interested in indigenous people's involvement in World War II. And he talked about how we had like a national identity for a while as peacekeepers, this responsibility. of what is Canada's role globally? Then after the Afghanistan war, a lot of Canadians lost favor with the idea that we have a role to play globally. And from my understanding, more recent governments have kind of lost interest in making big differences abroad or believing that Canada has a larger role to play.

And so I'm interested in your thoughts on what Canada's role is, and do you feel like the citizens know what their role is? Wow. Yeah, that's a really great question. And I think we have to remember that Canada is also really big and really diverse, and we have a lot of different groups of people and perspectives as well. So that's a tough one. But yeah, generally, like, you know, with my work that I've done globally,

Canada has a great sort of public global opinion in terms of what our values or principles are supposed to be. And I think Canada does a pretty good job of encouraging discussion and debate. around a lot of issues. And I always like to say, possibly we're doing a better job with that than maybe the Americans do. You know, although if you think about it, you know, a lot of our ideals are somewhat similar, you know, ideals principles around freedom, democracy, but certainly Canada, you're right, is well known for its role that we've played over the years in peacekeeping globally.

So I just kind of feel, though, I always sort of caution my students and whenever I'm asked questions when I'm working globally about Canada to not generalize and to always let people know that we're also not perfect. I think it's really important for us and for other countries and the so-called global north that are supposed to be developed countries that advocate for freedom and liberty and all of these things and human rights, not to get complacent. and to really, again, have that intersectional lens at looking at our own country and what's happening internally in our own country. So, you know, also realizing the impacts that we've had historically on indigenous populations here in Canada and not getting complacent about it, I mean, the shocking discovery of graves at residential schools, globally, people have paid attention. to that. That's made a huge hit on, I would say, Canada's global reputation of being an advocate for human rights. But more than that, I think even just looking within a country like Canada where things are supposed to be fairly close to perfect and saying and being honest about it, we're not perfect. We can do so much better. There are groups in our own community and our own

society that are still struggling, not for a fault of their own. What are we doing about it? So I always like to, when I do get asked that question, when I do work globally about Canada, like for instance, I work a lot on trying to challenge stereotypes and biases in classrooms in different countries in sub-Saharan Africa. Usually, you know, the majority of teachers are male. And so we're trying to sensitize male teachers, for instance, in this case, on trying to break those stereotypes and, you know, also calling on the girls in the classroom.

to go up in front of the chalkboard and give an example or to be leaders of the classroom. I always get asked that question, oh, but things must be great in Canada. It must be perfect over there. No, it's not, you know. And I think that's really important for us to always remember and always to be constantly trying to do better. Yeah, I just think of like, at certain points, I feel like there are pivotal moments in a country where somebody delivers a speech that brings people together, like the signing of

the 1982 constitution. It felt like, I know there was like disagreements amongst Quebec, among certain issues, but it felt like a bringing together of society and that we were all going to be on the same page about this. And I feel like right now, I don't feel like we have like a national identity. Like, not that we're perfect, but where are we pointing? What are our goals as a society? It feels like a lot of it, and this concerns me, is perpetuated by corporations. Like the climate change movement, I support, but I get worried when I start seeing labels on products to say this is a green product. And then you start reading that these, you only have to meet a minimum threshold in order to have that little green stamp. And then you're like, well, is this really

making a difference? And it feels like we're being told to put that on ourselves personally, but we don't have like objectives that we're all kind of working together on. And like, I know that the conservatives and liberals, we can disagree on things. But fundamentally, I feel like we have core values about everybody should like I don't think conservatives disagree that everybody should be able to have enough food to support their family like I don't think that they don't believe in that I just think that they have different ideas on how to get there and so being able to say let's get back on the same page it just doesn't feel like we've had a national conversation where we're on the same page like during the last federal election it felt like there were a lot of just throwing

banana peals at each other rather than saying okay I want the best for this country I want the best for you and your family. This is my proposal. It might not be the best proposal, but my core values are X. Let's all as a society work towards these goals. It feels like when I see our current prime minister and how he says one thing and then does something else, it's discouraging because it goes, it makes us, it puts it back on the citizens to figure out what is our national identity instead of us all being able to say, we're not perfect, we're going to do poorly on certain things, but we're going to try. And it feels like that kind of message hasn't been shared in while. And that's, I'm interested in your thoughts on that. No, I agree with you completely.

And I think probably where, and I'm just going to bring this back to talking about the global development sector for a little bit, Canada has actually been not only in peacekeeping, but we've been quite out in the forefront for advocating for global development issues and for trying to redress some global inequities in the world. We are actually, you know, our government body that deals with development issues is called Global Affairs Canada. Canada. And, you know, some academics have actually studied the role of the Canadian government in pushing along a lot of sort of really positive movements in how to address global issues. We are actually, I don't know if many people know, I always love to tell my students this, that Canada is the country that's been pushing the most at trying to tackle gender inequalities, but not just gender inequalities, you know, inequalities facing different social groups that might be discriminated against in the world. We actually didn't shy away from even saying that our development assistance policy is actually called feminist.

We have been sort of leading the charge in getting other donors to really fight and to target specifically their development funds for the people who are the most marginalized. So we've done quite a bit of positive work, I would say, advocating for, you know, exactly the issues that we need to be tackling when we're talking about global development. So I certainly am very proud of that. I see that as a Canadian legacy, but you're right. We probably haven't had for a long time that I can think of these sorts of larger discussions about what are we might have political differences, you know, but what are those core values? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if maybe a political science would be able, scientists would be able to shed some light there, but I haven't heard that. I really haven't. I've been hearing a lot of division and discussion of differences, but not a lot of discussion coming back to what are our core values. And I think you're right. I don't think anyone from different political parties would say that the end goal is different. Our end goal is we want everyone in our society to be well. But it's the means and how you get there where we start to differ and bicker and fight. Yeah. And I think that that differing and bickering is not necessarily a bad thing. I just think that we need to, like again,

just bring the two most intelligent people on the topic who completely disagree and have them hash it out. So we can really think about these issues. And I don't see, when I see like political debate, it feels like this is so nonsensical. Like, we're not really talking about the issue. You're seeing who can grandstand the best. And that's very uninformative to a person who likes three-hour conversations with people. I love to watch election debates because I'm craving that. I want to have really great discussions and debates about what we need to do in our country.

I haven't seen it. Yeah, it's very discouraging because you think of all the conversations, all the nuances, that we can really disagree on. We don't need to disagree on the surface level wording of X. We can really have genuine conversations. And I'm hopeful that the podcasting world will appeal more to political leaders because we can hash it out here. You can take as much time as you want to lay out your arguments and your perspectives. There's no rush.

And then people can hear how you got to your thought and your perspective. And to have that in-depth discussion or debate or whatever you want to call it really openly, Well, again, do the same thing that I first started to talk about in the beginning of our conversation, which is building those bridges, seeing the similarities, seeing the common goals that we have and reinforcing that. You can only realize that you've got common goals if you actually sit down and talk. Yeah. Really talk, right? Absolutely. So let's talk about your research in regards to women. My understanding, and this is a surface level understanding, is that women actually being allowed into the workplace, it shows like it's an economic marker for success, which means that country is going in the right direction and they're going to see prosperity, they're going to see growth, and they're obviously going to see a higher quality of living when they're respecting all of their citizens equally. Can you tell us about your research in regards to this? I mean, so definitely, you know, at a macro level, if you look at statistics that have been gathered in countries in the global south where girls for the first time

are being sent to school increasingly compared to before, and they are, you know, going to school, they are going out into the workforce, you know, the impacts on their lives, you can definitely see the, you know, improvements in terms of they're marrying later. You know, there's been a lot of research and studies that have shown that they've got greater agency and decision-making abilities once they do get married. So certainly that linkage I can't deny is there. You know, if you are allowing girls to access equally educated. and the workforce, it is having huge societal benefits. But I always caution, you know, my students,

and whenever I have done sort of in-depth research, looking at sort of the impacts of education on girls or women, is that it's obviously, it's not always such a linear process. And there's, like, for instance, just if I could give an example, a lot of development projects now, and I was talking about Canada having this feminist international assistance policy, meaning that something like 95% of our development projects have to focus on women now, wherever we're implementing them in the global south. Focusing on women, giving them opportunity is crucially important, and I completely applaud.

I'm 100% behind all those efforts to do that. The problem that we run into, though, is that we sometimes forget that in order to really address gender inequality. Gender inequality doesn't just mean that we're focusing on women and girls. There's another side to it that we can't forget, which is the men and the boys. What is really at the crux of gender relations or the relations between men and women where we often find that there is a lot of inequality or imbalance are exactly that, the relations between the two. That's so important. We can't ignore men and boys and just focus on women and girls and hope to achieve gender equality. That's just one piece of it. So now increasingly,

thankfully, people have realized that. So an example I just want to give, and I always tell my students this, and I try to also give them positive examples rather than always negative examples, but I was involved in an agriculture project in Ethiopia. And so we were working with women and male farmers, small farmers with really small pieces of land, you know, who were quite poor, and they were growing crops for their own consumption and then selling some extra to the market. So, you know, some of the female farmers were doing really well. And actually, they were most experimental in taking on a lot of new, I wouldn't say new. They were actually local methods of farming that had been forgotten. And, but they were more suitable for the environment. So actually, they found that their

yields, their crop yields were, were sometimes four or up to ten times higher than their husband's who were still using the very sort of traditional method, not traditional, I would say the modern methods of agriculture. So what had happened was in this one village, this, you know, model female farmer got interviewed by the local radio station as being an example for other female farmers that she, you know, she was doing so well. Now, what happened was when her husband had come home and learned from the neighbors that she'd been interviewed by the local radio station, he was in such a rage that he borrowed a tractor and ripped up his wife's fields. So I always show this, I tell this example, because I want people to understand that it's also,

it's not just a matter of giving things to women or allowing women to do certain things. We are trying to disrupt notions, ideas, norms of how we think and value women and girls in a society. And that means disrupting norms held by men, too. and working from a young age when boys are young on trying to get them to think differently about equality, getting them to think differently about how they think about girls or women. Super important. That's the level that we need to work on. That's the level where you can actually say that you're having an impact or change on gender equality. So very difficult work. Like I think sometimes people simplify it too much. Oh, we've got school. We just built a school for girls. Everything will be

solved? Well, no, it won't be solved because do the parents agree, firstly, that they are going to send their girls to that school? Those girls might face barriers in getting to that school because of, you know, it's not appropriate for them to ride on the back of a motorcycle like the boys do, and if there's no appropriate transport for the girls, they're not going to go to that school. And once they, if they go to that school and they face teachers that are, you know, extremely stereotyped or abusive, they're not going to stay in school. So again, I just always like to point out to my students that it's actually a very complex thing trying to bring about positive change. It's not just about providing access. That's just like one

aspect of it. And that's a really good example of how like just a perspective shift or a conversation could have maybe made that go differently. Like if he, if that farmer was there and you and somebody he respected could have gone up to him, shake his hand and said, hey, congratulations to you and your family. It looks like you're all doing great work. Your wife has set a really good example here. You should be proud of her and make that super clear. Then maybe he goes, oh, like, I'm included in this, but not being on the grounds when it happens, not being involved. And then feeling like, well, I work on this farm twice a week as well.

And what I don't get any interview and I don't get any recognition for my hard work. And then she's going to say, like, well, like, I'm sorry. Like they just asked and like I agreed. I didn't think it was a big deal. And his perhaps his ego is bruised. And that's where just going too quickly or not recognizing that, like, let's just slow things down and make sure the whole family feels recognized in this process. Exactly. You could have gotten that person on board because now maybe that woman feels discouraged from the work she's doing.

And that impedes all growth. Like, she's just said a really good example for everybody. And now maybe the other women in the community feel discouraged from, like, I don't want to do it radio show. I don't want to get my farm ripped up. Like, this is what we used to eat. And now I'm not in a circumstance where I want to take the risk of. being appreciated or acknowledged in a positive way. Yeah. Yeah, completely. So what we, the, the lingo we use is male engagement or male

involvement in development is, is so crucial for any project that's trying to address gender inequality. Yeah, I talked to Adam Gibson, who's a mixed martial artist, and one of the comments he made is, like, it's good that we've made classrooms and elementary schools and middle schools and high schools more, less hands-on. But we need a space for that for young boys because rough and tumble play is part of young boys' development. And if you just get rid of that and go, we're just going to have participation and we're not going to have any contact, well, that impedes boys' growth more than, I guess, it impacts women at scale. And, like, perhaps there's only, like, a small, minute difference.

But for boys, they need that. And, like, I got lucky that I experienced that. But for a certain period, I didn't experience that. And I know that that was impacting my ability to relate to other people and to understand my body. And so often when we're making progress, we go, that's the direction we want to go in. And then we forget about the progress that can still be made in more localized areas, it sounds like. And I think what's so important is to realize that, you know, to achieve, I suppose, justice or equality, we need to bring everybody along in that. And another thing, too, I like to point out to students is that although in many parts of the world in sub-Saharan Africa or South Asia, you do

find that girls are still facing more barriers than boys in many respects, but be really careful with that. That is a generalization again, too. So, I mean, I was working in schools in northern Uganda where, you know, there was donors who were sending boxes of books, and most of the schools at a primary level are mixed boys and girls schools. The region we were in was a very poor region. There was an influx of refugees coming from South Sudan. All four. We families were struggling. You know, all, you know, I would say equally boys and girls were, you know, they were both coming from families that were that were poor, but yet donors were sending boxes of books marked for girls' use only. So you can imagine what the boys must be thinking

and feeling, oh, are they trying to tell me education's not for me? But also another thing, too, that you find in many parts of the world. I'm talking about societal norms and some societal norms are that, you know, girls have less value because they have to be married. And so we're not going to invest in their education because why waste our resources educating a girl if she's just going to go be married and go live with some other family? But at the same time, too, there are certain societal norms that negatively can affect boys. And we talk about that here even in our context in Canada, that boys and men sometimes feel like they have to behave in a masculine manner to fit in. And if they don't, they're, you know, considered not manly or whatever it is.

There are certain expectations for how we think men or boys should behave. That can also really negatively affect boys. I mean, just going back to that same example of education, even if you look at statistics, even if, you know, there are perhaps fewer girls making it from primary school to secondary school in certain countries in sub-Saharan Africa, there are also huge numbers of boys dropping out. And that's also going back to the norms that are. placed on them, the expectations placed on them. And in certain context, boys, because men and boys are expected to be the breadwinners for the family to go out and work and bring money home, you find

that a lot of boys are dropping out to carry out informal jobs to bring money home to their households, which those households are poor. So it's not to say, and it's really, I think, damaging when we try to generalize too much. And again, that goes back to me always emphasizing that if you are working in development, that you need to have these intersectional gender lenses that you put on to understand who's being affected and not to, you know, and to realize that probably different groups are being affected negatively in different ways. And how can you address all of that rather than just saying it's, oh, it's only one group. I'm only going to focus on this one group. Yeah, I think that that's a challenge. And you think of even here in Canada, how you said we're not perfect. We have, like,

I think it's a C or a C plus literacy rate. And it's mainly, when I was doing at least my readings of like newspapers and stuff, which I don't know how valid they are, but we're basically saying that one of the main causes is because we have trades. And we have, it's so lucrative for somebody to go join the oil patch and go work there or lumber industry or do something there than it is to continue your education. Because that payoff is so far in the future that it doesn't make sense to delay gratification for four years, six years, eight years if you're doing a PhD in order to go make more money when you know, need money on your table today. Exactly. And so people think more short term. And I think that that's a

challenge that most people face is, do I delay gratification? Is it worth the weight? What is the benefits going to be? What does that look like? And then people kind of get lost on why I got my education for English and now I want to do something over here. And so does it even make sense that I got that degree? And so it can be complicated for people to figure it out. And it sounds like having more conversations sounds like it's the path to figuring out these problems. Do you feel like the conversations that take place in developing countries, their high quality, that you feel like we're moving in the right direction? I think so. I think amazing things are happening in the world. And that's why it's kind of my passion to bring those stories to my students here. I want them to know. And I feel like

Canada does not do enough. Like I feel like we're still, we don't have a global perspective enough. We don't have enough information flowing here in our country in terms of what's happening in the rest of the world. And that really frustrates me. Because if we did, we would understand, we would see some of those stories. We would widen our perspective. We would again, like what I mentioned, realize and make connections. Oh, well, we've got struggles in Canada about these sorts of things. But look, they also have similar struggles over there. Let's link up and let's bring our movements together. And let's come up with some great solutions to our common problem. So I think we need to do a much better job here in Canada. I, you know, I actually lived for many years outside of Canada. I actually left after my

undergrad and only came back to Canada in 2013. So I feel like I'm relearning how things are here in Canada and certain things are still shocking me and surprising me. I kind of thought that by now, you know, there'd be more information flow, informed information flow about what's happening in other parts of the world. I feel like we're not doing a good enough job with that. And I think our education systems here are not doing a good enough job with that. So just like we're trying to indigenize and understand and bring indigenous knowledge into our learning in schools, I still think it's also really important to bring a global understanding and perspective into our schools as well. It'll just make us better Canadians and better global citizens. That's what's

crazy, right, is that we live in a country and, like, it was founded on the idea that we were going to be multicultural. It was founded on these ideas that we were going to bring the best of us, that we were going to, like, allow everybody to come and share their passions, their expertise, their language, their knowledge, their culture, and that was going to enrich us, and that was going to make us all better off, because we'd see those overlaps, like I was talking about indigenous culture and Christianity. And it feels like we let all the cultures in, and then we just didn't have the conversation. And it's feels like that's where for so many people, they're still stuck in, this is better than this,

or I have this opinion, and that was passed on from my grandparents because we forgot to share and build upon each other and learn from each other. And I remember when I was younger, we had like a multicultural day where we brought in the different foods from the different cultures. But they didn't explain whose culture, why, where it came from. And that's why people travel. And so it seems so crazy that we have all these different cultures. And all these different backgrounds and interests and experiences and then we just don't talk about it or we put someone in like a position on a news station and they're not allowed to share their personal story or why they're there today they're just they're representing this demographic of people

but they don't get to say hey like it's pretty crazy that I get to be here today on the news and talk to you I'm like we don't take an interest in like maybe our journalists sharing who they are where they're from how how much work it took them to get there like I don't see that on the news where they're able to say, this is my personal background. And I'm very honored and privileged today to tell you the news. This is my experience. We're not allowed to share that in the way that I think would allow people to go, that's why you're on the news and I'm not. That's what you're bringing to the table that I couldn't.

Because I think a lot of people watch the news and they go, well, I could do what you do. And it's because you're not allowed to say what makes you special. What makes you unique to this position that's going to enrich our understanding of what's going on in this community or that community. or that community. Can you tell us about your understanding of what's going on? Like you said, there's a bunch of good things going on around the world that we don't know about that would make us happy or make us more engaged if we understood what's going on. Can you give us some examples of the great things that are taking place globally that we,

that's just not in our news cycles, it's not in our everyday life? Yeah. I mean, we only seem to focus in on global issues when there's been a disaster. There's armed conflict. And certainly those things are happening and are important for us to look at and important for us to see what can we as Canadians do about it. So definitely really important. But I'm talking also about hearing what is happening in these countries and locations that are really positive. What are local organizations doing?

What are the positive stories coming out of these countries in terms of achievements? We don't spend time focusing on that. Well, maybe we do in classes or courses, but certainly not in the media. We don't hear that enough. We don't hear those sorts of discussions happening enough. But I think also what you are pointing at, too, we here in Canada have people from all over the world. We are, you know, a country that has, I think, as our ideal for a long time, been to welcome immigrants to our country, welcome refugees. But that's another thing, too, where I feel like we have so many diverse.

people that have come here. Where are their voices? Are we hearing their backstories? Are we hearing what struggles they've been through? Are we hearing what their experiences have been like settling here? We don't hear that enough. We really don't. And I think that would also help Canadians to get a more global understanding and perspective just by speaking to other groups right here in our own country. Yeah. And I think that that's so important because it's not even like it comes across like it's a responsibility when you kind of describe it like we should hear from these people but it's like we should want to hear from these people like it's it's it's it's so cool that somebody came here and like we have um a few restaurants run by syrian people here

and like you came here you had nothing and you figured it out like that's that's like you think of the american dream and that's the story that they share with people and there's something just so strong about that that i think we need to find that in Canada. It might not be identical, but that feeling of like, we want to hear the cool stories of people coming here and starting from nothing and then building their life out. But like, I have friends whose parents were refugees. And one of them is a very close friend of mine. And his dad and his mom came here with nothing. And then he went and became an electrician and his mother went and became a nurse. And they work every day. And they're always doing something.

And they take off time from 6 p.m. to 9 p.m. And then they do it again. And it's like, that's not just somebody's life. That's a really inspiring story about what it meant them to be here. And like, I think we should hear those stories more. Yeah. Because it, like, I think of the people who were born and raised here. And like, a lot of my friends are like, I'm just going to do half the work. Like, read the, read the synopsis of the reading. Say that I read it. Fill in the blanks and hope for the best. And, and not try. And it's like, your parents worked so hard for you to be here today. And I see that within their children as who are my friends. And they go, like, I have to work hard. Like, my parents instilled that in me because they sacrificed everything for me to be here

today. And it's like, that's the story that I think you could put on the news cycle every single night. Nobody's ever going to get tired of hearing about how somebody overcame adversity and grew as a consequence of that. Oh, yeah, completely. And I think that's what I really admire about you doing this podcast is you're trying to dig at some of those stories and get those out, which is just so wonderful. Yeah, and that's what I try to always, I think, at the base of everything that I do at the university with my students, if I can spark an interest, if I can see a student's eyes just kind of glow with like, oh, I never thought about that and I want to dig into that more. I want to understand this person's story. Then I've done my job. I just want to spark that interest.

I think all of us should have that interest in us to want to know more about not only the world around us, but the people around us. Yeah, I think the secret to this is people are infinite. interesting and we I think got a traditional kind of approach in media to saying like this is how long you get four minutes to talk about this issue and then we've got to cut to the weather and like whatever it is or in the news article you want to simplify it readers aren't going to understand if you use big word so you got to and we we started to assume things about our listeners and I don't I don't worry about how many people are going to tune in I worry about is it going to be engaging are people going to learn something are they going to grow as a consequence of hearing this person talk

And people can always go back. They can re-listen. They can learn. And I think we've just, we've underestimated people so much. And right now, during this political climate, it's like we're tri, we're simplifying people down to one team or the other team. And the beauty of both sides is they both, if you, and like my favorite, I think, word over the past couple of years has been steel man is to take the position that you disagree with the most

and make the best arguments for why that exists. and then do that with the other side because you might not agree like on the surface you're right they might be wrong and you might be able to point to a flag or a point that they're making and completely wrong but if you really think about what were their intent what were they thinking and and do they have any valid points that you should hear out that's where you're respecting the side even when they don't maybe perhaps deserve your respect but that's what i think brilliant academics do is they're able to say yes we should focus on girls there's no doubt about the nuance here is that we should also focus on boys. Like, that's something that so many people overlook when they're grandstanding or trying to show a sense of ego. And I do worry about that sometimes when I teach, actually, that I worry that sometimes students come to a class just wanting the solutions or wanting the answer. And I'm not giving them that. I'm just letting them know that things are highly very complicated, but you need to study them in depth and you need to have an understanding from different people's perspectives. And I don't, and it is really hard to make conclusions on certain things.

things. Everything is gray. You know, there's a right, there's a wrong in everything. So I don't know if that frustrates students that I do that. But yeah, that's just how it is. That's what, like, I guess I would argue that's what thinking is, is that like you're going to improve something perhaps, but you're not going to fix the problem. And so we're going to make gradual steps in a direction. And we get to pick the direction, but you're going to be involved in whatever takes steps in improving the process. Like interviewing Lee Harding, we talked about wolf culling, which is the act of taking a gun and a helicopter and shooting them. And like, so it's tough for me to hear that. And like, I don't want wolves to be killed arbitrarily. I recognize that there's a need for

conservation, a balance between having enough wolves and not losing the caribou. And so there's a balance to be kept. I don't think shooting them from wolves is the right answer. I'm open to the idea that there is some sort of hunting we can do to bring down wolf populations, but it's a complex, there isn't a correct answer, and there's nuances to the process and thinking it through, and then I posted that episode, and some of the comments were like, kill more. And it's like this surface level understanding of an issue and a sense of like, I'm just going to poke, and I'm going to cause shenanigans with my one perspective. And I think that that's the challenge social media is created is because there's no price of entry with your thought, whether it's really

low quality or really high quality. There's no differentiation on the algorithms of whether or not you've contributed something brilliant that's going to inform us or something that's not. True. And so I'm interested, like, have you ever thought about starting like a podcast or something where you can, because I think you're one of the only people I know of that knows about what's going on in the broader community that's able to give a balanced perspective on these issues? So maybe not a podcast, but some sort of page where you're able to share what's going on in the positive because I agree with you, I love Fraser Valley Current. It's my go-to news now. But they're not talking about global issues. And obviously not. They're Fraser Valley Current. They're talking about what's going on here. So have you ever thought about doing something like that? I have. I'm not really big on technology, but I've been forced to learn. So I have actually started up a GDS program Facebook page where I post a lot of stuff for students in particular. But I've been playing around with the idea of actually have. having my own sort of faculty specific to me, like external to UFV web page where I can post a lot of

this stuff. So, yeah, I've been thinking about it increasingly. I think there is definitely a place for that. I've seen a lot of academics in developments who do sort of have a personal page where they will put sort of really, you know, cutting edge stories on what's happening in other parts of the world. And I think, yeah, there's definitely a need for that. If there's any way I can support you with that, whether it's helping with the technology side,

I think that that's something I'm passionate about, is making sure voices like yours are heard because I think it's valuable for us as a society to get information from reputable, reliable sources that's going to help give us that new perspective. And one of my favorite professors during my UFE time was Mark Lalonde, and he was interested, criminology educator who was interested in risk management. globally. And so he would talk about, well, like, this company's trying to get gold from here, but they have to worry about an uprising going on in the nearby country. They have to worry about this. And then his assignment was like, pick a problem and then talk about all the challenges

that come with that problem. And so I chose rising sea levels and trying to sort out what all the different opinions are and figuring, it makes you realize that it's so difficult to come to any one conclusion on something. And that's that form of thinking again where we get to realize that there's so many different avenues to look at one issue. If you look at your iPhone, you realize that the minerals from that are gathered by children in developing countries. And they have to use their teeny tiny hands to do that. And then you hear like people who are really interested in social justice go like, well, we need to like stop shopping at Lulu Lemon for whatever reason. And then you go, we all of our phones are from this terrible like developing country

where we're abusing children. China has the people making the phones. They have nets over the building so that they can't jump out the window anymore. And, like, when you learn those things, like, if that doesn't humble you, if you don't stop and go, like, what are we doing as a society where I'm accepting this level of abuse and, like, the atrocities of, like, to think that somebody would want to jump out a window is hard to comprehend. To think that they said, well, we'll put up a net to prevent that. Seems even, it's like a darker step in the wrong direction.

Yeah, I completely agree with you. you. And I'm thinking, you know, academics, we engage in research and we do research dissemination in the form of, you know, academic articles and papers. And we go to these really specialized academic conferences to present them. But for me, personally, I don't actually come from a long history of, you know, of academic teaching. I come from a practitioner background first and foremost. And I think that that kind of grounds me, but drives me also. So I'm thinking, you know, back to this idea you had of having, you know, like a website or some kind of social media where I'm actually talking about a lot of these really tangible stories that I'm hearing in a really, not simple,

but sort of reader-friendly way. I'm not targeting an academic audience per se, but I want to disseminate some of these ideas and perspectives and share stories of specific people. For me, I find that as a priority. Whenever I take on any kind of research project, I'm I'm not thinking from the lens of an academic, oh, yeah, I can get so many, so many academic articles out of that. No, I actually want to share some of these ideas and solutions for the common person. And I think that's what's actually so wonderful about studying global development studies is we are very much a new discipline.

We're really interdisciplinary. We don't have this long traditional baggage that other disciplines have of having to stick within these, you know, disciplinary norms that we have to follow. We're an applied discipline. We are working on issues in the world today with social consequences that we want to find and address these issues. And so it makes us, I think, as global development studies professors, to be trying to disseminate information in that way. We want to have an impact. We are not just doing it for the sake of saying, oh, we've dissected this issue and this problem.

and, you know, we've gone and spoken to other academics about it. No. And I think if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't be in academics. That's the only reason I'm teaching is actually because I'm doing it in this way that makes sense to me. I still feel like by helping students to learn about global development, by me doing these research projects and getting, you know, the word out in a way that most people can understand about these issues, but, you know, also a lot of my research is focused on the

solution bit. there's always like a policy advocacy component to what I do and what I want to look at in the world. I must say I sometimes do get taken aback by some academic papers that I come across and they're just dissecting a theory for the sake of dissecting a theory. And I'm like, but what's the point of that? Like, what are you actually applying it to or what are you actually making better in the world by doing that? That's just for me personally. If I can't actually see an impact of what I'm doing on a real world problem, I'm just not motivated to do it. So I'm happy that for me, I've found that ability, I think, to feel motivated within teaching and

carrying out research in global development. Yeah, I think that that's important for students to be aware of is that there are two different types of academics. There's the academics that believe that what they're teaching you is a tool and it's going to go in your tool belt and you're going to go make a difference or hopefully you're going to keep in mind and it's going to spark something in the future. And then there are academics who are more just focused on research for the grants that they received and the processes within the university that open more doors that lead to other opportunities. And it's like they're more focused on themselves and where they want to take their career and rather than what am I doing and is there a purpose behind that and I'm like

it's not just academics people fall into that when they start a business they start with a good cause and then 20 years later they've forgotten what that cause was because business came up and they were focused on the next deal and the next opportunity and they lose why did you go to law school why did you attend this university why did you go into this field and when you kind of stop talking about it you stop having that passion for it. And I think that that's where people can feel like a genuine connection with their educator because Rebecca is very picky about who she takes as a teacher. And she looked at it in a completely different way. I was being supported through my education by my indigenous community. And so I had more of a, I have to take the course. I don't care who I take the

course with. So I'm going to take the course. And then I'm going to pass the course and I'm going to go on to the next course where she was like, well, I'm paying for this, right? So what am I getting out of it. I'm going to take this course. So I want to take it with somebody who actually wants me to learn something. And I know certain educators don't care about the rate my professor's review. I don't agree with that mindset. I think that there are obviously nonsensical. I get nonsensical comments on my YouTube channel. That's not where I'm going to go. But there are insightful responses. One of yours is caring. That is one of your number one responses. If students find you caring and that's so important when you want to take an interest in something,

You first need that person to actually care about what they're teaching. Completely. And then second, you want that person to be invested in you and sharing their passion with you. And so can you tell us a little bit about what your courses are and how you kind of approach it? Well, I'm humbled by students calling me caring, but I'm not surprised in the sense that, you know, when I said to you that my whole focus when I teach is that I want to spark an interest. I want students to start to ask why and what's my role in that and what can I do about that. I mean, you can't achieve that by being, I don't know, harsh or not caring. So, but having said that, too, I think all the work that I've done, like even before I started teaching, my work as a practitioner, was driven by the sense of caring.

So I'm not surprised that I suppose I bring that into my teaching as well. But, yeah, since I joined UFE in 2020, I've had the opportunity to teach almost all of the core GDS courses. So, you know, we are a small program, but we're hopefully growing. We do have a lot of students who take GDS courses as electives from other programs, which is great and wonderful. So, yeah, I've, you know, had the ability to teach many, many courses. now in GDS, but also to create some new courses. So we're also hoping to fill and to sort of bring along the GDS program, update it to decolonize it. So I've also been working on and I've created quite a few new courses. So there's a new course on gender and global

development. I have a new course on global health. I have a course on development issues in sub-Saharan Africa, a course on refugees and population displacement. Hold on. Could you go through each one of these, just briefly to describe what kind of students would get out of each course. Yeah. So I think for all of them, I think something common is I, you know, it is global development after all. So it's not just looking at these issues through the lens of what's happening in so-called developing countries, but again, always making linkages to what's happening here in Canada. So making those linkages between the local and the global. So for instance, are, you know, the refugee course, which I haven't yet started teaching, but it is approved for me to start teaching.

is doing just that. So we're looking at, you know, from a macro level, what is happening globally with forced migration, people who are forced to flee their homes. And then how does that impact us here in Canada? But what is Canada's role in that? So then looking also at sort of refugees' experiences of being resettled here in Canada.

My gender and global development course is a really interesting one because that gives students a really hands-on opportunity to interact with global development organizations. So when I was talking to you about this gender intersectional lens, I actually do a lot of work in that area of training NGO staff on how to use a gender intersectional lens. So I bring a lot of that training into that course for my students. So it's quite a hands-on course of trying to say,

these are the gender issues, but what are we doing about it? And what are the tools that we have to address it? And helping students to understand how, in today's, world are development organizations attacking these issues? What tools are they using? Are they effective or not? So most of my courses all tend to have quite a practical applied aspect to them as well. And I always love to bring in speakers from NGOs from different parts of the world, government actors here in Canada to talk about the government policy aspects to the issues that we talk about. so I really try to give our students not just a theoretical understanding of the subject, which is

important, but that to me is just one key component. The other components are how is that being applied? How is that being used? Let's assess and evaluate what impact that's actually having on different issues in the world. Right. And can you tell us more about the health one as well? So the health one actually I'll be teaching. I'm co-teaching it this summer with a faculty in nursing, Catherine Liao and I would be co-teaching that one. So again, we're looking at global health, I just seem to find that there was a gap. So Catherine Liao, who's a nursing at UFE, she also works on, we're actually collaborating on a global health project in Sierra Leone currently. And she actually has her own NGO and she does work in Sierra Leone

from the health aspect. So I was bringing in the sort of social and gender aspect. And so we're collaborating on this project in Sierra Leone. So we will be drawing in that course on a lot of the issues directly related to our work on this project in Sierra Leone. So we're actually working with persons who have albinism. And albinism is a highly stigmatized health condition in many parts of the world where, you know, essentially, so in sub-Saharan Africa, where you've got larger populations who have this health condition, they have a very light, light colored skin and hair. And so they tend to get very badly affected by the sun. They've got really high rates of skin cancer, but it's not just the health condition. That's the issue here. It's the

fact that they're stigmatized in their society for having this condition. There's a lot of misunderstanding why they have it. People in the communities feel like they can catch it in the air. So anyway, so this community is highly stigmatized, but finds themselves unable to go to school, unable to find work, and living in the utmost poverty, you can imagine. So that course is going to be looking at, you know, a broad range of global health issues and also bringing in, again, that practical aspect of what's being done about it and what needs to be done about it. That's super interesting because it reminds me of, like, conversations, the catching it isn't really the case, but like the idea of autism as a problem that needs to be removed from people.

And then I'm a pretty big fan of Breton and Eric Weinstein, who are one's a biologist and one's a mathematician, and Eric has, he's on the spectrum, and he talks about how throughout his education, he was underestimated, even though he just, he was able to figure out the answers, it was just through a completely different route that is foreign to everybody else, but that allowed him, and he's one of, like, he works with Peter Thiel, who's a really famous investor, and they're close friends, and the idea that he isn't capable because he's on the spectrum, or that he's disadvantaged in some way, he would refute, profuse And he believes that, like, we need to create space because people who are on the spectrum often bring a new perspective, something that's valuable.

And we're, whenever we see difference, we want to underestimate it. And I don't know, that might just be, like, human nature to think that, like, why have the edge, like, too much investment in ourselves? But, like, the idea that growing up, I was taught that that was a disability, that placed somebody at some sort of disadvantage, I think, is an error. And then the other is my mom. And, like, FASD is caused by alcohol use. But to think that my mom is not providing some sort of value, like, she was on my team since day one. She couldn't do complex math questions. But what is that, like, is that the marker of, like, her value in our society?

What she brings is this never-ending willingness to encourage others. And Rebecca came from two parents who never encouraged her. day in her life, doubted whether or not she'd graduate, discouraged her from going to university, said, like, well, how are you going to get there? And it's like, well, we can figure out transportation. It's whether or not she's willing to go. It's a way bigger issue. And my mother's impact on Rebecca, I think has been really positive because it's not, there's no question about whether or not she's going to encourage you and say, like, that's great. And, like, sincerely feel that. And so her, I would say, like, her empathy levels skyrocketed as a consequence

of her disability, which to me is an advantage for everybody who's in her circle, because she's going to lift you up. She's going to smile. She's going to give you a round of applause. She's going to be that person in the crowd that's going like giving you a round of applause when you walk across the stage. She's not a person who's going to sit on the sidelines and go, well, I don't want to embarrass myself and I want to look like a professional. She's going to show that emotion and really just focus on you and be proud of you. And to me, it's not, she might not be able to do, again, math questions, but that doesn't define a person. And this instinct to judge and then devalue, I think is so. dangerous because it and it's not even dangerous necessarily for the other person although I'm sure it is it's dangerous for yourself because you miss out on the potential of other people you miss out on

the beauty that someone can bring because people who have met my mom have gone like oh well like she can't she doesn't write perfectly or she doesn't do that and it's like what like what are you looking for are you looking for her to write a book like what's your thinking in regards to what value she's going to bring to you and so I think that's so unfortunate when you have to address problems like that because it's again it's like the people who discriminate who stereotype who think small-minded it's like you're the one missing out you're the one missing out on new culture new cuisine different experiences and really humbling yourself for sure and i think what's been so inspiring for us in particular with this project in sierra leone is that we're working with a

really small grassroots organization which is actually led by a woman with albinism herself so it's just been immense to see not only through our project, but she's been doing this work herself in Sierra Leone before we came along of showing, breaking those stigmas, look, you know, she's a highly accomplished woman. She's now, you know, she's being invited to speak to the media to come to government events and conferences. And something so simple that just struck me was somebody that we were working with in Sierra Leone, who I think came from a rural region, said, now people are starting to look at me as human. Before I was looked at as non-human. I mean, it's just incredible. Like, I think when you

break stigma, I mean, it could have a huge impact on people's lives in an extremely positive way. I mean, to be considered non-human to me. Just how, I'm just even trying to picture that. Like, I've never had to deal with something like that, you know. So, yeah. And the other thing, too, that I wanted to mention about the global health course that we're looking at is, you know, we, and I mentioned this before, that we have to look beyond just having access. Like, we're very proud and happy in Canada that we've got universal free health care. Okay, in the U.S., it's a bit more messed up, although they, you know, they were trying with Obamacare.

So it's not, so one key concept that we're going to be digging apart in this course is probably something you've heard about, which is referred to as a social determinants of health. So people's health and well-being can actually be drawn back to us understanding, you know, what their social group is. Are they poor? What is their gender? What's their sexuality? Are they in a group in society that's in any way stigmatized or discriminated against? And if so, they're going to have poor health indicators, even if you've got free universal health in your country.

There are certain groups that face more barriers and will have poor health indicators because of it. So really pulling that concept and idea apart and applying it not only to countries in the global south, but to countries even here in Canada. So, I mean, you know, if you look at statistics in Canada, I love to always share, you know, Canada actually puts together every year a report for the SDGs, for the Sustainable Development Goals. How are we, how well are we doing here in Canada for different things? And if you look at their section on health, you will find that indigenous populations, much poor health, indicators in Canada. Women and girls, and again, particularly indigenous women and girls, much higher rates of violence inflicted upon them. An example I was giving my students, you know, in the U.S., if I can just really briefly talk about what I mean by social determinants of

health, applied to the U.S., which is a country that is developed, rich, is that, so they were looking at infant mortality rates. And infant mortality rates is usually a statistic or an indicator that we apply to developing countries. You know, before the age of five, how many children die, which normally indicates that the health system is extremely poor or that certain groups of people are not able to access health at all if their children are dying before the age of five. And they, so this person had taken statistics from one city in the U.S., from Washington, D.C., and they were looking and comparing the rich neighborhoods of Washington, D.C., and comparing it to the poorer regions of the same city. And they found that the poor regions of

Washington, D.C. had an infant mortality rate 10 times higher than the richer neighborhood of the same city. So, again, I mean, those sorts of issues. Why is that? What's causing that? So those are, you know, caused by social determinants of health, which we're going to be looking at in the course. Yeah, I think of what's going on right now with inflation rates and government spending. And a lot of, I don't know how to reconcile the two because I know that many indigenous people choose perhaps left or leaning governments out of hopes for the social programs and resources that they provide. One of the challenges is that government spending causes inflation. Inflation disadvantages individuals on fixed incomes more. And so who are on fixed incomes, indigenous communities.

and people in poverty. And so I think it just came out the other day that we're at over 5% inflation rates. And so whatever the, like I know the government upped social assistance benefits by a few hundred dollars because of the pandemic, well, that just disappeared. Any impact that that had to help people is gone now because inflation is increased so much. And people on fixed incomes, they can't, they can't, it's not that they don't want to. It's that they can't delay gratification. and that's what investing is, is saying, okay, I'm going to give you my money.

I'm not going to use my money because now you have it. And then you're going to give it back to me in three years, four years, or I'm going to invest this for my retirement, and then I'll get it back. And it'll be more than hopefully whatever inflation was. And so I don't know how to reconcile the fact that I know that when I see like a local election or a federal election that many of my indigenous friends are supporting Jagney Singh or supporting Justin Trudeau or supporting left-leaning governments where it's like, Like, I don't, I don't think that that's going to help.

I don't think that that's going to be where you're going to address these health issues, these challenges, because I see and I've talked to Inez Louis, who was a previous guest, and she talked about the challenges of going to university from like here all the way to UBC and moving out there and being apart from her family. And you can't underestimate the impact that being disconnected from your community, your friends, your family has on a person's willingness to continue the side effects of like now you're in a new crowd. Well, what do people on UBC do all the time? They drink. And so you've got these negative peer influences now. And you're trying to better yourself and you've got these

barriers in your way. And that's not just her. That's lots of people who want to do better, but have things in their way or things that make it more difficult to stay on the path. And it's not clear what the solutions are. But I see myself at the same. dichotomy of like I look like and I think that politics gets too often in people committing to like left or right. I think it's like time and place. When we're having economic success, I think we should bring in more social programs, increase resources, make sure everybody has everything they need. But then when we're starting to see the spending go too far or when we start to see challenges that we need to shift our perspective and support a government that's going

to put like more of a like rain that in and make sure that we have jobs and resources to get through those different economic time. So I don't say I'm one or the other. It's like it's time and place. But I don't know how to reconcile those types of more political challenges, I guess. Yeah. I don't know. I don't have any answers there. I think we all ask that. That's, yeah. Yeah, I think it's just, it's really important for people to consider the different ramifications of the decisions they're making and the way they vote. And I get really nervous when people commit themselves to one side or the other because it limits you to being able to shift your perspectives or update like there are certain political leaders I thought we're going to be great

and then made some good decisions and then made some terrible decisions well that doesn't mean them and like people go too far to jump to well that means I shouldn't vote that means I shouldn't give my political opinion anymore and it's like well people are imperfect if you're hoping for a political system where people aren't going to make mistakes errors think short-sightedly you're you're not being open to the idea that like we live in reality where there are going to be challenges and problems. Can you tell us, though, about some of those stories? You said you had stories from other countries of successes or of what's going on. Can you tell us about some of those? Sure. Well, I mean, a lot of success stories that I can think about. And what I've kind of

also focused a lot of my research interest in is actually people in, you know, living in poverty who come from maybe marginalized communities where they're living, who have been able to break through. We've talked a lot. I keep talking about the root cause of gender inequality being social norms and beliefs and attitudes that are quite patriarchal. I'm really interested in those who have managed to break through that.

The so-called outliers, those who fought back, who fought against the restrictions or the expectations placed upon them. So I actually have a research study that I'm doing right now in Ghana, Mozambique, and Rwanda, looking exactly at girls' education and trying to carry out quite in-depth interviews with girls who are outliers. And their families are outliers. So in terms of what do I mean by an outlier, so in the context of those three countries, it could be girls who manage to, whose mother and father agree. to let them continue to secondary school and not to pressure them into early marriage, for instance. Why and how was that family able to do it?

Why and how, what role did that girl play in fighting against those social norms in her society? So there's countless examples of girls, women, stigmatized groups who have pushed back against these very restrictive, harmful social norms in their society. I want to know how they did it. And I want to explore their stories. I want to know in depth how and why, because I think those individual stories are the stories that we can use to move forward. So I have a huge interest in exactly that. People who have broken through the social norms of their society to reach a situation better for them,

a higher level of well-being. How do they do it? I think the solution lies there. And to show and share their stories and to have them be the role models in their local community. So a lot of projects that I work with, I'm working with an NGO right to play on many of my research projects and they work a lot on girls' education. But what they do, that's so interesting, that has, that builds community momentum and starts to shift those norms at a societal level is to take those girls who have been successful in school, who have pushed back against all the norms in their society to become employed. Some of them have become heads of their own schools. Very few women generally become heads of schools. You'll find that that position is dominated by men,

but the women who have, they're role models, they're complete role models, and they should be out there as role models, because when I've seen that happen, it can inspire an entire school of girls to follow in their footsteps. I think for me, sharing those stories of people who have fought against all adversity and their own society to bring themselves to a better place are the stories that I want to share. And I want to really, I think, try to investigate and see how those kinds of role models can actually lead to broader societal shifts in thinking. That is really inspiring. Yeah. So a lot of my research will be actually sharing those specific stories. Yeah. Yeah, because I think that that is what,

what I'm trying to do as well is to believe that like you there's something to learn from so many different people who have face challenges like Brian Minter who was a previous guest talked about he's worked for years and he it doesn't sound like he's made a crazy living off of his business but he felt a responsibility to share this with the community to build his community up and I think that there is so much to learn from individuals and being able to share their stories it's it's like soul fulfilling to know that their message is being shared and then when you think about like how few like every once in a while newspaper will put in like a happy blurb about a person and and something like that but it's not it's not done with the same passion that you're going to bring to the table where you're like you're researching this and you get to perhaps meet the person or meet people involved in this and go like wow you guys accomplished this un this remarkable thing that's going to make such a difference for other people and seeing that casketes effect. I think it gives other people hope and it creates the space for other people to figure out what they're passionate about and then to work to share that. Yeah, completely. That's,

that's definitely my focus. I didn't realize that that is what I was doing with a lot of my research projects. But then I was, I was having to write up sort of some summaries of my research and I realized, oh my goodness, all my research is revolving around, you know, these people who are able to break through the restrictions and social norms or their society in a good way and trying to showcase them as role models and trying to investigate to see what are the ripple effects of that in their community, in their society for the government. Yeah, I think that's where my passion really is. So how did you get started in this then? Like, were you planning this from the get-go? Like, you start in school. Did you see this as something that you were going to

be interested in long-term? When did this get started for you? Yeah, that's a great question. I was always really interested. And I was like super ambitious in the sense that I think from grade 10 onwards. I was probably investigating future careers and what degrees I wanted to do. And I was running through all of my passions. Like I have to also say that that was one of the things I had to fight back with in terms of, you know, trying to convince my parents that this, I wanted to study this. I remember my dad was making jokes with family members that, oh, I've spent all this time and effort to educate my daughter and now she's just going to be off digging wells in some country. You know, I think I

I can totally understand it. Like, I think especially being a child of immigrants, that immigrant mindset of we, you know, my parents came to Canada with graduate degrees, but they weren't recognized here. They struggled to find employment. And I know that. So obviously, I can understand for them that they don't want me to struggle. They want me to study something that will lead to a sure income source, a permanent job, and stability.

I totally get that. So I had quite an uphill battle when I was trying to tell them, but actually I want to pursue what motivates me and being a dentist doesn't motivate me or, you know, I want to actually help in the world and make a difference. And so I was investigating everything that I was passionate about through high school. And I was fortunate, actually, that I was able to get involved with a environmental youth group in Vancouver. And that was kind of the impetus. I actually was always interested in issues of social justice. And again, I don't know where that comes from. I think partially it is just how I am like I just I don't know I I tend to be a very empathetic person I want to understand people and I get very affected by people's struggles I want to be an ally for them maybe it's partially me hearing my parents stories of their struggles why they left India their struggles when they came here maybe it was my personal struggles of having to say I'm I should be treated the same as my brother I don't know where it came from but I was always um

I think I only got motivation from feeling like I was having an impact in a positive way. So initially I thought, you know, the environment, environmental studies is where I was headed. And then I started attending some environmental conferences that were happening here in BC. And they were bringing in speakers like, I remember once I went to this conference in Victoria as a high schooler. And they had people, indigenous people from the Amazon who would come over to speak to us. And I started to realize, oh, well, these environmental issues are not. so black and white as I thought. You know, and oh, you know, this group was telling me about, you know, private companies

coming in or what the government is doing, ruining their, you know, the Amazon rainforest right before their very eyes and they're being dispossessed and thrown off their land. And I just started to see and realize that all these things were interconnected. And I realized there was not one occupation that I felt could get at what I wanted to get at. and there was not one discipline of study that could get me there either. I wanted to understand and deal with environmental factors. I want to look at economic factors. I want to look at social factors.

I want to look at political factors. Why do I have to choose one of them? I didn't want to pigeonhole myself. I wanted to do it all. And I kind of wanted to understand it all in a holistic way. And so when I was in high school, and this will probably date me, there was only, I think, two universities, two or three universities at the time that had international development studies degrees. And so I, nothing, there was nothing in BC, which is why

I'm so passionate about UFE's GDS program to grow it, because it is still a little bit surprising to me that there are so few global development studies programs in B.C. UFEs one of only two. But I had to move to Ontario. I went to the University of Toronto because I had to go there if I wanted to study this topic. And so, yeah, that's how I ended up going there. And I just, I wanted to find something that was interdisciplinary. I didn't, I always hate restrictions. And I think maybe that's what my love is for trying to examine people who break out of their, you know, societal restrictions and norms. I hate being pigeonholed. And I hate being told, you only have to study this or you can only study it with this perspective. Why? Shouldn't we be

looking at like a wide variety of perspectives and approaches? That's what I wanted to. to do. And that's the only thing that satisfied me. And thankfully, I found global development studies as my avenue to be able to look at social issues holistically. Right. And then where did you go from there? Because you attended the University of Toronto. And you also went to the London School of Economics and the University of Suss. How did that all come about? Yeah. So again, when I finished my degree at the University of Toronto, I was still loving this area. And I knew that kind of confirmed for me. This is where I want to study, continue to study, and to work. And so, of course, being practical, I realize that it probably makes sense to go and do a graduate degree, although what, and I also always tell my

students this, luckily at the University of Toronto, my degree had built within it a one-year co-op program. So while I was an undergrad, so it was a five-year degree, in fact, so you spend the whole fourth year working abroad, I went and worked for a really grassroots feminist NGO in India for one whole year and it was tough. It was tough but it was eye-opening and it just reconfirmed for me that this is the work I wanted to do. So I started to look immediately since I had that one year of experience in India I thought okay. Sorry why was it tough? Oh where do I start? It was so tough that actually after that year um so yeah I guess so I was in my fourth year of study so I don't know what how old I would have been but um

I wanted to go. I chose India, in fact. And I chose India because I thought, well, for my first really in-depth experience of working in development, let me choose the country that my parents come from. I'm somewhat familiar with the culture and the language. I'll have a more, perhaps I can contribute more. I can understand better the situation if I go have, you know, my co-op year in India. but it was my like I had only ever visited India for short periods of time and I was like sheltered in my relatives home sure I saw poverty on the streets but I didn't actually have to live it or really try to um address it I was really sheltered whenever I used to go travel to India and this time I wasn't I was just thrown out there I mean I love this NGO and I think I know I don't regret at all the fact that I decided to work with a really small grassroots organization. I was essentially given a wad of money and thrown on the trains and said, you go travel to this state in India and go live with this community and come back after two

months and tell me what you've learned, essentially. And I had to do that for the entire year. And so I moved around to five, six different states in India. Now, I knew this, but it's only when you live it, that you realize how hard it is. Here I was a woman and I look Indian and I was doing my best to fit in with the societal norms. So I was dressing very respectfully in Indian clothing, you know, and so I wasn't trying to behave in a so-called Canadian way. I was trying to fit in. But I faced a lot of gender-based violence. Exactly. That's what it is. I mean, because I was a woman and I looked Indian, I was expected to behave like an Indian woman. I shouldn't have been on a train by myself. I shouldn't have been living in an apartment in Delhi on my own.

So just for those reasons, when people saw me, they were assuming I must be a prostitute. So I used to have men knocking on my door in Delhi thinking I was a prostitute. It was terrifying. You know, the everyday violence that women face, particularly in Indian cities, is horrifying. And there I had to deal with that for a whole year. And this isn't that long. Like this isn't 100 years ago.

No. This was in 1997, in fact. And so I left that experience and I, whatever experience I applied for after that, I would write on my application, send me anywhere but India. I was traumatized. I truly was. Yeah. So that's how that the India experience happened. What were your kind of summaries from that experience? What were you able to pull from that? Um, just the realities of women in that country and the women who are fighting against, uh, trying to fight against violence. I mean, even now when I hear these stories that are always shown in the media about women who have been raped and abused and killed in India, I, it, it comes back up for me. I just like feel like, oh, you know, paralyzed by this issue. Um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what it brought for me. It, it, it, it comes back up for me. It, it, it, it's, brought me, I mean, I'm sure it brought me more understanding, but it also made me run away, which is unfortunate. I actually haven't gone back to work in India since then. Yeah, I can't imagine. It's hard to be able to put yourself in those shoes because that's so outside of the experience for the average person. And I think for such a young person, and the funny thing is my parents didn't think it was going to be a challenge for me. Maybe they

lived in India in a generation when there wasn't so much violence like that, but they were quite surprised when I came back and told them about my experiences. They were, they were quite shocked. So, you know, they also thought, oh, great, she's going to India. That's our homeland. Great decision. But I don't think even they expected that I would be faced with with those sorts of issues trying to work there. Yeah. And you think of like when you know a certain community that you feel like, you know it, like we feel like we know Canada when we live in Chilliwack or Abbotsford or anywhere in BC. But when you hear about different experiences on Ontario or Saskatchewan or what some of the norms or challenges they face, it's such a different

understanding. Like, even when you think of like realizing that like a different province has like a right-leaning leader or this province has like, you realize that they value something else, that there's something else going on within that community. There's different conversations perhaps taking place. And so when you think of India, it's like, well, there's different, there's different areas and there's different populations and every community is going to differ to a certain extent. And and you don't know that until you get there and for you to be able to like experience that and then like leave with a deeper understanding of like this is really what it looks like these are the real problems other people are facing and I think before I used to think about gender inequalities in

India but when you're faced with real personal danger death violence that's just a whole different thing I don't know I take my hat off to the women in India who are fighting today that are protesting on the streets against gender-based violence. I don't know how they do it. Yeah. Can you tell us just really quickly about what's going on in India now because I feel like I don't know if you're keeping up with the protests, but I find that really, I like to see it. Obviously, I don't like to see that there's problems that they're trying to address, but I like to see that that's like the only example I can think of, of like a global understanding of an issue that we don't, we're not experiencing here in Canada, but they're bringing an issue that's taking place in another

country to the forefront to me. And that's like the only thing I can think of of my real-world GDS experience of being able to see that and agree or disagree with the truckers protest. I like seeing the Canadian flag again as a symbol for something. Because when I talked to Scott Sheffield, I was talking about how like it doesn't feel like we have a relationship with our flag anymore. And again, disagree or agree with their protest, I think that the Canadian flag does symbolize something. And at least we're having at the forefront of our mind a conversation about what that flag stands for. And it's the same with people kneeling in the U.S. about what the American flags represents to them and to their communities. I like that we're at least having the dialogue again. And again,

to me, that's us recommitting to our values, figuring out what do we agree with, what do we not agree with. What does this flag mean to us? And there's a great Netflix documentary called Explained. I talk about it a lot. But they have one on flags and how flags are often used to represent causes, issues. And they're the start of countries and they're often the end of countries in terms of their existence. But the protests going on in India, to me, it's really motivational. I know UFE has strong ties to working with India. I know that there's a lot of people from India, who go to UFE, who live in our communities, and for them to raise the problems their countries facing here, it's inspiring.

It, again, makes me think of that multicultural, what we were saying we were going to do. So could you tell us a little bit about your understanding of that? Well, the farmers' movements that happened, yeah. So I actually love the fact that UFE has got quite a few, like, Punjabi students, students like, well, Punjabi Canadians who like me were born here, but their parents immigrated. But then I've had also a lot of Indian students who have come from India to come study here at UFE. And I think it's a natural affinity for them probably to really like my courses or to like GDS as a topic. And quite a few Indian students have actually decided to minor in GDS after taking some of my classes.

Because I think what they're finding is that, you know, the issues that concern them in India, they feel like they are standing up in front of the class and talking about these issues. and, you know, all these other students here in Canada are listening to them and giving value to those stories. And actually, they're quite shocked that Canadians actually want to learn about what's happening in India or learning in other part, learning what's happening in other parts of the world. So I love that aspect. I even had when the farmers movements first started, was it last year, I had one of my students and I asked her and I said, would you, because she was really passionate about the issue and she was involved with some of the groups here in the Fraser Valley that were rallying behind the farmers in India. And I asked her to actually give a presentation to the rest of the class about that issue. I mean, she was so happy to be asked to do that and, you know, to have an opportunity to share what's happening there with the rest of our students.

And the fact that I was able to link that into our course material, I think they were just amazed. And so I even now have got a few students from India in my classes. And I can just see their confidence, their happiness at being able to get up and actually present on their own country. Um, and that's what the course is all about. You know, what are the issues happening in different parts of the world like India and giving value to that and trying to, um, you know, see what those struggles are and see how if any, any way we here in Canada can be allies for movements like that. Yeah, I think that that's how, like, that's what university is supposed to be, right? It's not that you're supposed to just listen to the professor, do the assignment, submit it, leave. It's you're supposed to participate in your education. And so, like, I don't know why I just learned this in, like, my law school, but it's like, I have to write a paper on a topic. Well, how do I make the topic relevant to me? And how do I make it interesting where I'm actually going to want to do the paper and do the research? And I don't know why that didn't seem clear to me during like my time at UF.E. Like, that didn't, like, dawn on me to like why don't you write about something you actually care about like and I think it makes a whole lot of sense to me I'm not surprised that more and more Indian students or international students are are coming to GDS and finding an affinity with it and that's like the ideal situation

I mean rather than me going to India and trying to affect change on you know gender based violence or whatever it is isn't it better and more effective to have someone from India do that work in India you know what I mean so again it's this whole aspect of trying to decolonize the sector and trying to encourage children of immigrants, diaspora populations, international students to get involved in this work of global development, to go back to their countries of origin to try to affect change. Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about what that presentation was or what's going on in India?

Because I have to admit, despite the fact I've seen the flags, I don't fully understand what the problems the farmers are facing. Could you elaborate on that? Well, I'm probably not the best person to elaborate. on the specific policies, but essentially there were certain policies that were going to be put in place by the government, which would have removed a lot of the sort of sure income that farmers were going to get for selling their products. And a lot of discussion about the role of agribusiness actually driving a lot of those policy proposals by the government. So again, issues of basically

taking away farmers' livelihoods. And a lot of discussion about who was going to benefit, certainly not the farmers. Well, that's what the farmers were concerned about. That is actually agribusinesses and companies that were going to be benefiting from these new government policies. So I can't even remember now how long did that movement and strike go on for before they were able to get the government to backtrack on implementing those policies a long time. Through COVID, through COVID, they were in the streets protesting, blocking roads, fighting for exactly this very issue of their lives. livelihoods. And for me, because I like to put that gender lens as well, you know, there was a lot

of discussion as well about women's role in those protests and movements, sort of being so important and so crucial, but women kind of maybe being a little bit not at the forefront of the protests, but they certainly were there. So I was, I had some bells ringing in my mind thinking, oh, I'd like to study what the impacts of that protest has meant for gender relations. Did it change anything, you know, did it sort of change the value or expectations that are being placed on women because they participated in this? Yeah, because they're basically, like, they're putting their stake in it. And so that kind of garners respect from perhaps people with stereotypes or ways of thinking where they can't really get away with that when you're kind of like, well,

you were there for us and you were supporting these movements as well. And I'm just always encouraged when I see, like, protests in general, just seeing people willing to vocalize or take a position on something, because you think of how many people do farm work and how hard that work is to all, like, these are not people who are looking for the next pro, like, we have like kind of like career, um, protesters who, who go to various protests and that, that's what they enjoy, do there is something about being and having a sign and standing up for something that people enjoy. That's not the population you're dealing with. you're talking about this community. So the fact that they're standing up, like, to me,

automatically adds like a level of credibility, I guess, that like, there must be something wrong here that's genuine, because these are not your typical community you'd expect to see stand up in this way. And so I think that that's really optimistic when I see people taking political stances or voicing their viewpoints in peaceful ways. Because you see it, like I saw it on trucks. I saw it on cars, vans, like all different vehicles. It didn't, impact my ability to get anywhere, but it was informative of like, there's a global issue I'm not educated on at all. Yeah, for sure. And I constantly am learning from my students. Like, you know, I think it's tough for me to keep on track of exactly what's happening everywhere all the time,

which is why I love and I always place value on students' knowledge and students' experiences. And I don't hesitate to tell my students, actually, I don't know a whole lot about this issue. If you guys are interested in this, why don't you dig into this and come and present it to our class. So I always make sure that my students are aware that I also don't know everything. There's so much going out there in the world. And they could very easily be an expert on something or their experiences or their knowledge can be expert knowledge for us in the classroom. So trying to put all of us on an equal level of learning and trying to let students know that we all value your knowledge that you're bringing here to the classroom. And if certain students I've noticed have a real passion for

something or a knowledge or a personal experience in something, I always ask them, would you like to do a case study on that? Would you like to build an assignment around that? Why don't you come to the class and actually present on that? I think that is, I don't think any student's been upset with me asking them to do that. They've all been really happy to do that. I just imagine that, like, for some students, you feel underestimated by your professors and you have this. You know everything. You're going to tell me everything. And I'm just going to wait for you to tell me or I'll read your lecture or whatever it is. And I don't know if it's actually, you were asking me before we started talking about my experience in India about when I went to England to do my master's and my

PhD. And I'm wondering how much of that experience sort of shaped how I teach today. And I'm, and I don't know. And my only, the reason I'm saying I don't know is because I didn't, besides doing an undergrad degree in Canada, I did my master's and PhD in England in the field of global development. And that's kind of where I took, I take a lot of my inspiration from in how I teach today because what I noticed when I went to England and actually I had to go to England because there was no master's degree in Canada in development studies. So again, I was forced to leave and go to England because I wanted to pursue global development studies. But what I found there, and I don't know, I always like to make jokes about this with my students, is that England is the

country that colonized and destroyed populations around the world. But they were also the first ones who said, oh, well, let's try to do something about this horrible mess we've created in the world, and they were the first to actually set up university programs in development studies. So I knew probably going to England was good for me, because that's sort of where, you know, a lot of the thinkers and scholars around development studies were. You know, when I was doing all my studies at U of T, I realized, oh, but something like 80% of these people I'm reading are academics in England. Maybe I should go to England for my next degree and really hear from them, you know, what's going on in the world.

But which was great. And certainly that is what happened. I was astounded by, you know, the diversity of scholars that I met when I did my master's and my PhD in England who, what the key difference with them. And I don't know if I'm mistaken for Canada is that what I loved about studying in England and what I found with those global development studies professors I had is that they were. were first and foremost practitioners, or they were first and foremost people from the global south who had experienced the ramifications of being colonized and what that has meant. So they were real people and practitioners before they became academics. And they brought that into the classroom with them. And they really did not teach with sort of these errors of being

experts or knowing everything. Not at all. That was never the way I ever had any professor teach me when I was in England. So I don't know. That's just what I learned. And I suppose that's what I try to do now in my classrooms as well. And I love the fact that, you know, that practitioner experience, their real life experiences on the ground, living with communities, being from a certain community themselves, was valued and was given academic value, um, not, how many conferences they attended or how many papers they published. I found them all to be so down to earth and so willing to have students work with them on their research projects. I was in complete awe of that. A lot of the people that I looked up to that I used to read about when I was

doing my undergrad were now at either the London School of Economics or University of Sussex, and I was actually working with them on research projects. It just blew me away. But their humility also. Yeah, that's super interesting. And I'm interested to know what your experiences were there because one of the parts I overheard you talking about in one of your lectures was this idea of that if we just bring in our economic systems, if we just bring that in, that's going to fix all these problems. All these countries need is some economic development. And then that will get everybody out of poverty and they're going to live the highest quality life. And again, that's just like one little sliver of pie and thinking that if you just toss that over, that's going to fix it. And so I'm interested, could you elaborate on the challenges with that assumption? Yeah. Well, and it was a lot of these development professors that I had in England, who were the ones leading the charge against that very notion. So, you know, I always tell my students, I have a class where we run through all the different sort of developments of our notion of development. So what are, you know, how did we actually first think about what development meant? And

if you go back to the 1950s and 60s, it was purely an economic framing, exactly what you said, a country's GDP, economic growth, whether a country, you know, was wealthy at a national level. You know, typically that was the way we understood what development is and the understanding is that every country, every community around the world should try to obtain our level of economic well-being. but it was actually, you know, a lot of these academics who were working on the ground in different countries in the global south, or they were from the global south themselves, who started to say, this is wrong. This makes no sense. I have been to communities. I have carried out interviews with people, and they don't think that having money gives them well-being. They're actually talking about a lot of different things. They're talking about whether they have a voice. whether they have agency, whether they can make decisions in life, whether they have freedom,

whether they are, whether they feel that they are being included in their society, that's actually more important to people than how much money they have. How much money they have wasn't being equated with well-being. It was all of these other social, psychological things that people kept pointing at. So, you know, gradually, as more people started to study communities in the global South, so-called communities that we would identify as being poor, and finding out from their views and their perspectives, what does well-being mean to you? What does development mean to you? We were realizing it was very different from our global north, Western-centric ideas of what development should be. And so, you know, I would say particularly there were a lot of anthropologists who

were doing this work in communities at a community level, trying to understand local ideas and conceptions of well-being, what are there, you know, and trying to also look at, like, local knowledge systems and, you know, who's included in that and who's excluded from that, and trying to understand at a really local level what development is, they started to realize it means different things in different places. We need a much more holistic view of development, and well-being. It's not a matter of certain economic indicators. It's not even a matter of measuring your life expectancy or certain, you know, health indicators. It's much more than that. And actually, I had the opportunity to do my PhD research in the island of Mauritius, which is off the coast of

Madagascar, really fascinating country that I find a lot of people here in BC don't, actually, when I first went to Mercia, I didn't even know about the country, quite frankly. because it is so far from here, but it's a very ethnically diverse country. And so I was actually looking at factors of ethnicity and factors, basically doing exactly what these anthropologists were doing, going to communities where we would define them as being poor, and asking them, oh, well, you know, what do you think you would need in life to feel well?

Or what does well-being mean to you? I never once used the word poverty. And I think that's something so important to spell out. It's our, we're imposing our notion of what poverty means upon others. Nobody ever used the word poverty with me. They would say things like, but yet in our Western measures, they were poor. I mean, they had very little income. They were living in really poor housing.

But when I asked them about their lives, they didn't talk about their money or how much money was in the bank. Or, okay, certainly some people did say, yes, we struggle. I can't feed my children every month. I'm not saying that's not an issue. But what was at the forefront of their minds that they wanted to talk about was their exclusion, their stigma,

the community stereotypes about them and how they felt dislocated from their own family networks. This is what was creating ill being for them. So I found that experience really telling and I take that with me wherever I go.

I do, like if you were to say what discipline within development studies do you feel the most affinity for? I would probably say anthropology in the sense that I just find that they are the ones who take a much more complex look at what's happening within a community and within a society. And they are generally much less, much more self-critical and self-reflexive, which is I think exactly what you need to understand people's situations before you're making judgments or placing labels on them. This communities poor, this community's rich. What does that mean? What does that mean locally? That's so important to understand. So I found in Mauritius such interesting findings that I think probably

led me to focus on a lot of things that I did later on, which is like, you know, I didn't even realize at the time I was doing my research. I was actually looking at intersectionality. I found that certain women of certain religions were being excluded from their families that was leading them to poverty. I found that certain racial groups face such heavy discrimination by others in the community that they felt hopeless and had no desire to push their children in school and were therefore in poverty. So I started to realize that there were all these other factors that were leading to certain communities being poor in our Western notion of what poverty is. Yeah, I think of like in Canada, I know a lot of people who feel like they're struggling paycheck to paycheck

who live in apartments, who have a $30,000 car that they're painting payments on with insurance payments. And they're talking about themselves as like, oh, like, I'm like in poverty and like it's not fair. And it's like, I don't know if I can get on board with your version of like, and like you realize that like just more money doesn't fix life problems. And it's something that's been important to me not to overvalue is somebody's career. And me and Sonny McKelsey talked about how like for the average person, it's like, what do you do? Well, like, that's your introduction to a person rather than who's your family and like, who are you related to? And what brings you meaning? What are your passions, your interest? And when you look at people as just, like,

how much do you make determines your value in our community? You miss out on almost everything that matters and it's it's rather strange that like when you see these shows like minimalist or people who are trying to simplify their lives that they're actually recognizing that like I had all the stuff I could need and I was unhappy and that that was actually the worst I felt and the song the bigger than me came from a rapper Big Sean who's my favorite and his song is about how he had like gone triple platinum on the charts he'd done really well he's made songs with everybody you could imagine in terms of like big names and he had all the money he could ever need he'd taken care of his his family financially and he still felt empty and then he was like

well like when i realized that this was bigger than me was when i finally figured out where to go from here because you we send people on paths of how much money are you going to make and what's your title is going to be and how do you pump that up on lincoln or whatever website and and try and make yourself look like a big deal that you get super like selfish in your thinking and it's only about you and it's it's only about your success and how you get to talk about yourself and brag at these conferences and say I'm a big deal and I'm important and you should listen to me because I'm the foremost leading expert and it's like but who are you with your family do you treat your family well are you respected by your children do they want to be around you and that's something that

I think we struggle with a lot here in Canada in comparison to developing countries who are really like, this is my family because these are the people I'm trying to take care of. Yeah. Definitely. I think we can't underestimate the importance of emotional well-being and what that means to us for sure. Yeah. And so you wrap up your education in England. Where do you go from there? Because it sounds like you did a lot of work prior to coming to UFE. What were you doing prior to that? So I actually did my PhD with a view to continuing to work as a development consultant. I joked to my students that I was almost like, I like to call it a development nomad, where you know how I was saying I didn't like to be pigeonholed. I also wanted to be free career-wise. I didn't want to be stuck with

one organization necessarily in one country or only working on one issue. I wanted to try to see development from all different angles and perspectives. So that meant a lot of moving around working contract to contract. I worked with government. I worked with NGOs. I worked with the UN. I worked with different regional organizations. I wanted to see development from as many different actors' perspectives as possible. I just didn't want to stick with one thing. And I kind of felt like development consultancy would get me that. I would have that freedom to be able to choose different clients, different countries, work where I wanted. And that worked really well when I was young and I didn't have kids.

So I did. I mean, after I finished my PhD in England, I actually, I shouldn't, I should be honest about this one. When I was doing my PhD research in Mauritius, I met my husband there. So. Oh, how did you guys meet? So I was working for the UN for one year after I did my master's in England and met him during that year.

And my work permit was going to run out. And we were kind of like, oh, well, we still want to investigate this relationship. So that's actually what drove me. to go back and do my PhD when I did because I knew if I went back to do my PhD, I could do my PhD research in Mauritius. And so, yeah, I wouldn't have done my PhD as soon as I did if it wasn't for that silly reason of wanting to stay in Mauritius. So, yeah, so because I met my husband and he was pretty grounded in Maricious at the time and didn't want to leave. So was he from there? He's from there, yeah. Wow. And so how did you guys go about meeting? We just, it's a very small

island. So I think there was only one place to hang out in the evening where everyone would go. And so I met him through a mutual friend who was living in the same apartment building as me at the time. And everyone seems to know everyone there. It's a really, really small island. So yeah, that's how we met. And how did you guys connect? Like, what did you guys see in each other that brought? Like, that's a huge life investment to commit to your PhD and commit to this community. So what did you, what did you feel? What was that experience like? I don't know. I just, I don't know what it was. I just kind of felt like here's someone with really different life experiences for me, but yet our core values are the same. And I want to

keep exploring this. And I was always kind of open to the thought. Like I never had any preconceptions or ideas that, oh, I had to go back to Canada. I was kind of a free bird in that sense. Like if I could just keep floating around from country to country, I thought that was what I wanted to do. So it didn't scare me the thought of actually going and relocating and living in another country. I was up for the challenge and just wanted to explore that. And I was really into sort of studying Mauritian society at the time and I wanted to keep further delving into it. I was getting some great contracts to work with the Mauritian government on issues of poverty and, you know, exclusion, social exclusion in our society. And I just felt really fulfilled continuing to work there. But because I didn't

like to be pigeonholed. What I did was I based myself in Mauritius, but then was able to work throughout Africa. So I would go off for, you know, a one month, sometimes three-month contract somewhere else, and then I would come back home to Mauritius. So I thought it worked out really well that I am, you know, Mauritius is still close enough to the rest of Africa and that I could live that consultant lifestyle that I wanted to. But things started to change when we had kids. Then we decided, you know, at that point, okay, my consultant lifestyle is not really working, you know, and we also started to think twice about wanting to live permanently in Mauritius. And that's actually when we made the decision to move back to Canada. It was when I had two kids at the time.

Was that tough at all? Was that like, because you had all these experiences of being out in the world, was that like a sacrifice at all to say like, okay, we're going to put this kind of life experience in these experiences on a shelf, and we're going to settle down and start to make fruits? Yeah. I mean, I think it's interesting. That's why I always tell my students, while you're able, move around. Because things do change in life. As you get older, sometimes you do have that need for more stability. I can understand students who have a need for financial stability. I completely get that. Yeah. And so I just found as I was having kids that maybe, you know, this lifestyle wasn't the best thing. And,

Although I first came to Mauritius to work actually for the UN on gender equality issues, because Mauritius has populations from, interestingly, there's no indigenous population. It was an uninhabited island. And then it got colonized by the Dutch, followed by the French, followed by the British. And they each brought populations from around the world to come live there as indentured labors, essentially. So it's a very diverse island. But so because of that, they've got some pretty bad gender. inequalities happening there. But more than that, a lot of issues between religions and between

ethnic groups and a lot of discrimination in that society. But I had two daughters that were born, and we were all living in Mauritius. And we just kind of thought about their future. My whole family was back here in Canada. I had already lived in Mauritius for 12 years at this point. But, you know, again, moving around to different countries while I was there. So we just kind of felt like I and I still kind of regret to this day that it's almost as if, is it a selfishness? I'm thinking about my daughters and I'm thinking, I don't want them growing up in a society that believes that girls don't have value. You know, when push comes to shove, I want to leave and go back to Canada for the well-being of my daughters. Is that, was that behind our decision-making?

maybe to a certain degree, I did kind of feel like I want my daughters to grow up in a society where even though inequalities happen here in Canada, it's not the norm. It's not accepted to say to somebody, because you're a girl, you shouldn't do this or you can't do this. You can push back against it here in Canada. I wanted my daughters to have that as their values, as their principles. I didn't want them to start being affected by some of those norms that I felt were harmful in Mauritius. And more than that, and to add even further complexity to that, because Mauritius had populations from all different parts of the world, they each had their different religions. There is a huge sort of impetus in Mauritius to be religious. I myself am

not religious. My husband was not religious, but he's a bit of an oddball. I would say mostly everyone in Mauritius is religious. We were asked all the time, and he actually comes from the really small Chinese minority group that's living in Mauritius. So his great, great grandfather had come over from China. So I think 1% of Mauritius population is Chinese in origin. Wow. So he is an outlier of an outlier. Yes, he is an outlier in that respect. So, but I look Indian. Even though I'm not an Indian from Mauritius, I was basically, you know, seen through that lens of being an Indian in Mauritius. And something like 60% of the population is Indian Hindu, uh, living in Mauritius. I'm not a Hindu, so nobody really knew what to do with me. I wasn't religious.

So, but we got asked that question all the time. And it's very rare to find people who have married outside of their ethnic community in Mauritius. And that disturbed us. You know, we probably, socially, we were not outcast because of it, but we certainly did feel a lot of negativity and ramifications for him being a Chinese married to me as an Indian. And then people staring at our kids and asking them, what are you or what religion are you? And I was just so perturbed by that. I said, this, this is not going to fly. I can't, you know, conceive of my daughters growing up in a society where they're being forced to say what they are or what religion they belong to. And a lot of that was kind of behind our decision making, thinking about the

well-being of our daughters. And but also wanting to come back to my parents. who were here in B.C., who were getting older, you know, I think all of that was kind of behind our decision-making, but it was a hard adjustment for us. Coming from a really global situation where we were always traveling around Africa, we love that, we love that, you know, international exposure that we had, and then coming back to Canada. But at the same time, knowing that we're making those decisions for the well-being of our children and wanting to give our children stability, what was important to us at that point. say that that's the story of like most families everywhere, right, is you want to give your kids

the best. And that's where I think a lot of the, the political talk disappears is when it's your children, you want the best for them. And I find that there's, there's like real importance in recognizing that and wanting the best for your kids and not being, not feeling that guilt. Because it's at the end of the day, you're trying to position them so they can reach their full potential, whatever that looks like. But at the same time, I was privileged to be able to move. I mean, I think about so many other people and so many people that I spoke to in Mauritius who had been socially isolated and cast out of their families because they had married outside of their ethnic group who had nowhere to go.

They were trapped in Mauritius, feeling completely excluded and isolated. But I had that privilege of my Canadian citizenship where I could pick up my whole family and leave if I didn't like it. So again, that kind of guilt around that, that I just pick up and leave because I'm able to when it gets tough for me. I was going to ask you about that. What is that like to have gone to these developing countries and to know that you have a plan to head back?

And to like it would just, like as an empathetic person as you've described, there's a lot of like you develop a bond with a child. You see what's going on. You want to help. You can't fix it. You can't fix the world. And so you have to, you starve that plane ticket back home.

And so what was that, what were those experiences like? Yeah, I don't know. I still think about some of the people that I became really close to and what their lives are like and me sitting here in Canada and I feel riddled with guilt about it. But I think it just gives me even more impetus to get their stories out and to keep working on these issues and to do some kind of justice for them and their stories and to share that with people here is sort of my way of dealing with it, I suppose. Yeah, because I think that it's like, it's not, and this goes back to like the do you want zero struggle? Probably not. Like that's not the goal, but how much struggle is reasonable. And I think that that is one of the best ways you can make an impact is by telling their stories because that also, that not only encourages them, but it encourages other people to be like them and to follow in those footsteps. And I don't know what the correct amount of struggle is. But I think that when it's told as a story, like I get worried. when indigenous people get told too often about our incarceration rates and the reasons are because the government did this to you and that's the reason because that leaves with certain as a native court worker working with certain people there would be this attitude well this is the government's

fault this is my fault and so like I'm just going to wait until they they fix all their problems and then I'll leave and it's like yeah but you're here today you're in jail today and so like how are we going to get you out of here and there still needs to be that element of personal autonomy of like what are what are the steps we're going to take to get you out of here what like yes you've been disadvantaged and we can name those all day long yeah but how are you going to get out of this circumstance so you don't have to come back here because do you really want to just be a statistic for other people to refer to as an overrepresentation or do you want to live your own life and define your own story aside from that and I think that that is the freedom that I think

we talk about in terms of Canada and the US yeah for sure and that's why I think I love doing this work and getting people's stories out there because I feel like exactly what you've said. Some groups have huge immense challenges and barriers. They face discrimination even today in our country. But yet, if I share stories of other people who've had adversities and struggle through and used whatever options and agency they had

to try to make life better for them, I think that's a worthwhile thing to do to let people know that despite their adversities, despite their barriers, they can still do something, you know, not to minimize at all the barriers that they face or the discrimination they face. And yes, we should be pointing figures at government and government policies and other people's views and stereotypes and biases, etc. But these are some, you know, some of these people that I had the privilege of speaking to and researching in Mauritius and other countries, you know, struggled against huge odds. And they may not be places in their life that, you know,

they're not wealthy or they're not, you know, maybe really well positioned career-wise or whatever it is. But they got through their adversity in different ways to a situation where they are feeling some level of well-being. And, you know, I just think it's amazing to be able to share those stories with others. And if that in some way inspires other people to realize that, you know, they too can struggle on. Yeah, I think that's wonderful. Yeah. Hopefully that's the story that you go to see the movies. Because you think of, like, people underestimate, I think, movies like the Avengers or the Harry Potter's. But that is that story being retold of, like, Harry Potter as a character is, like, completely disadvantaged.

His parents are dead. He doesn't have any grandparents or support. And what does he do in every movie? Despite the fact that he has nobody to concrete in terms of his family, he figures it out. And then he finds out that these people want to kill him and they don't want him. And he continues and he never, like, wavers in the face of adversity. and I think that that's something that you're supposed to learn out of those movies that I think we work pretty hard to underestimate why that book sold like a jillion copies

and why it's reached so many people. And there's a story there of encouragement of face the adversity head-on and you're not always going to come out on top, but that's the only option. It's the best option for you. Exactly. So moving forward, how was the adaptation to moving back to Canada? Did you have like culture shock is a word that's used pretty often? Did you experience that at all from seeing a different world and then coming back here and seeing like the students and the atmosphere?

Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you think about it, well, I left BC as a high schooler, but then I left Canada after my bachelor's degree. And then I was away for like how long. I'm really bad with years more than a decade, several decades, before coming back as an adult. So yeah, I kind of felt like my husband got. the red carpet when he came. Well, he was, so he became a PR, but we were married. So I think he became a PR when we were already in Mauritius. But when he arrived at the airport, like when we first came back to Canada and he sort of declared, yes, okay, now I'm going to live in Canada.

You know, you go through this like immigration section of the airport and they welcome you and they're so encouraging. And so all the attention was on my husband and trying to get him to adapt. Everyone ignored me because I'm a citizen already, even though I haven't lived here for for decades. So I used to always joke to my husband. I'm like, I need that help too, actually. I don't know what I'm going to do with myself over here. I had never tried to get a job here. I felt like I was starting at square one, essentially, re-learning the country. And I had memories of Canada that were completely off, like things had changed. Or I still remembered it through the lens of a youth, a young person, not as an adult. So yeah, I mean, I struggled.

I think I struggled with, I guess, thinking about jobs and careers at first and realizing that actually a lot of my global experience didn't really count for much here for certain jobs and careers. It was kind of like, oh, well, you know, the thing that immigrants always hear, where's your Canadian experience, you know, and the struggles of trying to get that first job in Canada when you have no Canadian experience. So I totally get that and understand that. For my husband, I think what, interestingly, Mauritius is actually, even though the British colonized it after the French, they couldn't get rid of the French language.

So even though English became the official language in Mauritius, nobody really speaks English. They all speak French. Really? Yeah. So my husband, I think his biggest adaptation was actually the language. And here in BC, French doesn't get too very far. So, and then the other funny thing with him is that he looks Chinese, but he doesn't speak Chinese. He only speaks French.

So we were actually living in Richmond at the time, which is where I grew up as a young person. So when we first came back in 2013, we were living in Richmond. And Richmond has a very high Asian population of people who have settled from either Hong Kong or from mainland China. And we'd go to the grocery store and they'd be trying to speak to my husband in Mandarin. And he'd be like, I don't understand. What language do you speak? He's like French. So, yeah, it was quite funny.

But since then, we've actually met a couple Mauritians, actually. Not a whole lot, but there is a Mauritian community here in B.C. So, oh, I actually have a Mauritian studying in one of my classes. No way. Yeah. Wow. And so you started at Quantlin and there was one other university. As a few.

Yes. And it didn't sound like those were great matches for your level of experience and what you wanted to embody as it sounds like as an educator. And like it sounds like you have certain. values in terms of like having that practical element. And it didn't sound like that meshed very well. Yeah, for sure. Like, I didn't know what to expect teaching at the university. And so basically, when I came back to BC, I realized that I probably wasn't going to be able to work as a development consultant anymore because if I wanted to do that, I would have been better off if I was in either Ottawa or Toronto where all the development organizations are based. There's not a whole lot

going on in BC. So I kind of thought to myself, well, I've got a PhD. I can probably start to look for teaching contracts and jobs. And so I was lucky enough to first get some contract work at SFU, which, you know, is a large traditional research-focused university. And I learned for the first time what that means. And, you know, later got a bit of teaching at Quantland, which was a bit different. I felt like Quantlin was sort of almost in between SFU and UBC and UFE in some regards, and I'll explain that. But at SFU, I just kind of felt like there was not much focus or emphasis at all on teaching or teaching quality or even engaging students. Nobody really cared. It was more like, go in, teach what you have to, but then go off and do your research and do

your publications. That's what we actually care about. And I had also always had my eye on UFE because I probably knew that I would never get a permanent position at SFU because there was, my PhD was in development studies. There is no development studies at SFU. So I was actually teaching in the International Studies Department, which was mostly dominated by political scientists. And they basically wanted everyone to kind of tow the line of using the political science approach and perspective. And they didn't really know what to do with me with my PhD from England in development studies. They were all sort of like, well, what is that? Is that even a discipline? We don't really recognize that here. So I knew actually that UFE had a global development

studies program. And so I used to periodically check what was happening over there. And it just so happened. I came across it. There was a posting at UFE. And I jumped at it because it was in global development studies. And I kind of thought, well, if I ever have an opportunity to teach in my field, this is it. Like literally, there is no other opportunity for me unless I leave the mainland of BC. But I didn't know a whole lot about UFE. But what I found, when I started just made me realize, wow, this is a better fit for me than my experience that I had at SFU in particular, in that I didn't even really know until I started that UFE is a teaching focused university, not a research focused university, and we've got smaller class sizes, and that

student engagement and teaching quality is really valued. And I thought, wow, after my experience at SFU, I kind of assumed all the universities were going to be like that. So I was pleasantly surprised. I just felt like it fit my values more because, again, like I don't feel like doing things just for the sake of doing it. I want to spark a change and see students interested in the material. I want to be able to bring in my experiences I've had in Mauritius or different countries in sub-Saharan Africa and bring that to the classroom. And I also was really astounded that UFEs seem to value that practitioner experience I had because UFSAher. Fee realizes that, yes, we want our students to expand their minds and to expand their

knowledge, but we also want them to think about careers. And I'm all about that. I completely think, like, I just, I'm a very practical person in that sense. Like, you know, I don't think I would have studied in the field of global development if I didn't understand what jobs I could do in that sector, or if I didn't get that from my professors in terms of how can this be applied. What can I do in this field when I leave and when I finish with my degree? So I kind of felt like my practitioner experience, bringing that to the classroom was a really good fit for what UFE was looking for. And I just, you know, stumbled onto that completely by chance of seeing this job being advertised and it was in global development and running for it. And just later finding out

that, wow, a lot of the things that UFE is doing kind of fits with my philosophy of what I want to do or how I want to be as an educator. Right. So when you went there, like, for my understanding, it's only recently become a mandatory class that students have to take.

So can you tell us about that journey? Because it sounds like that might have still been in the nascent stages of this program and then it's grown since then. So amazingly,

the GDS program, so it's actually a whole program is you can do a bachelor's degree, a BA in Global Development Studies. So I think a lot of students still don't realize that actually you can do your whole degree

in global development. studies or you can do a minor in or even an extended minor in global development studies. But I think where I've had a lot of students take my classes from other disciplines has been through the GDS 100 course because that course offers students. It meets the civic engagement accreditation that they are required to do as part of their degree. So I get a lot of students taking that course for that very reason. So they're coming to the course not necessarily because they're interested in global development, but because it's meeting that that requirement. of civic engagement that they need to graduate.

But yeah, what is interesting about that course is that when I do get some students who come in and they're just, you know, really enjoying the material or it's opening up a whole new perspective for them. And if they're in their first or second year, they can still sort of say, okay, well, actually, now that I realize there is a global development studies program,

or I want to do that. And so they'll declare GDS as their major. Or some of them who might already be major, and something else might add on a GDS minor. So that's been really great. But I mean, definitely it's, I'm really motivated to let more UFE students know about the program, but also what they could be doing career-wise if they were to focus on global development studies in their studies, either through a minor or through a major.

So I think there's a lot of potential to let students know about the program, let them know what they could be doing with that sort of degree. or that sort of focus in UFE, but then also letting other people know in B.C. I think a lot of people don't realize that UFE has a global development studies program, and a lot of them are still actually moving out to Ontario to do that degree. So, yeah, just making it more well known. Yeah, because it sounds like you've also helped build more courses in this program. And so what was that process like?

You come on board, and then how does that, you just start teaching an initial, course, but it sounds like you've helped kind of expand the program with other faculty members. Yeah. I mean, I think when I was hired, I was basically, you know, given some background on the program, the fact that it's so new, the fact that, you know, they haven't really made any changes to the program since it started in 2013. So I knew there was already an impetus, a push to rejuvenate the program, look at where the gaps are, bring the program more up to date, bring it up to sort of the best practices of what's happening at other universities that have, you know, larger, more well-established global development studies programs. And I think they were hoping to find

someone whose degree was actually in development studies. And I think the issue we have in Canada, I've seen in many global development studies programs, is there not a lot of PhDs in development studies. So you might get someone working in global development studies, teaching global development studies, but they're actually a political scientist or they're actually an economist or they're actually a geographer or whatever it is. So I think, you know, for me, knowing that I, and the University of Sussex where I did my PhD is actually ranked globally as the number one development studies program in the world. You know, I felt really motivated to bring my knowledge and my experience of how they run their program. What are their best practices? What are the sorts of courses that they

offer and trying to figure out here at UFE, where are our gaps, what can we rejuvenate, what can, you know, how can we better fill some of those gaps and how can we bring the GDS program up to date? That is fantastic because that's like, if you looked at a map and the impact that like one person attending this school and then returning that information to all the students you teach, it's like thinking of like the, how the COVID virus kind of spreads, but information in a positive way does something similar where you can take what you learned and you can bring it back here and then it can start to grow and it grows and grows and grows and then more people know about it and then they go off and get education and then they start to share that

and pass that on and then what was once like a few courses is now a whole program which becomes a whole arm of the university which is able to allow people to see the world in a different lens And as we started this, my concern is that we get too small-minded and we think so little about everything else. And when you hear about like the supply chain issues that we faced and these different challenges, you start to realize, oh, what's going on in Ontario impacts me? Oh, what goes on in this area impacts me. Oh, what like the supply chains in China impact me. And like all these different challenges, they impact you.

And you don't get to see it like watching a car. accident happened, but they're all impacting you and having students, like, I'm glad that UFE made that mandatory because having a larger perspective, a more holistic view of the world and like you can take a biological view of something, you can take a psychological view of some, a sociological, a criminological, you can take different views, but having that zoom out of what's going on globally and what are the decisions you're making that are going to impact what's going on in other countries or how can you be. force for change not only here in Chilwaukee or in your community, but like what does that

look like on a larger and larger scale? And just having, like maybe that person doesn't go into global development studies, but having that person be aware that they play a role whether they like it or not, whether they know it or not on these global issues is super important for people to be aware of. And I just, I really think that the, we talk a lot about rights and I think that there's a beauty in the responsibility that you have that you can make a difference and you should make a difference in a positive way to your community, whether it's environmental, whether it's in the communities. And that's something that you should be proud of. That's that's worth living like a meaningful life for. And that's always what I want listeners to like take away from these is

how do you go about living a meaningful life and different guests set different examples like Andrew Christopher. He plays music. You can find meaning in music. You can find meaning in music. you can find connection and and it speaks to you in a way that a conversation might not and you can get meaning out of like helping your family and making sure there's food on the table that's why people are willing to do like um one of my bosses at my the law career um his father worked seven days a week he worked a morning and night job so that he could provide for his family that's not an easy that's not like uh laid back watching tv watching the game and chilling out and eating cheetos but that's meaningful in that it was worth him waking up and sacrificing his whole day and then

leaving, getting on a bus and going to another job all day so he can provide for his family. That's sustaining not like your relaxation system, but it's sustaining your heart and it's making you feel like you have purpose and you're making a positive difference. And that that's something to strive towards beyond what, do what makes you happy, which I hear so many people say. Yep, for sure. And I think for me, exactly what you said, it's not that everybody necessarily will have a career in global development. But what I and what drives me is that, you know, exactly that, no matter what you're doing in life, no matter what your type of work or where you're living or, you know, what your

reality is, I'm striving for people to have broader perspectives to be more understanding of others and other people's culture, to be self-critical and reflexive about our own potential biases and stereotypes and just understanding that no matter where they are in the world, no matter what they're doing, we are all linked to each other in some way or the other. We've got some common values. We've got differences, being respectful of those differences and building bridges, really, between different communities, I think is the ultimate goal and applies to anybody no matter where they are and what they're doing. Right. How long have you been educating there? And like, did you have struggles with COVID? Or what was

that experience like? Yeah, I came on at UFE when it was full COVID. So I think my first year was completely, yeah, it was completely online. It was actually only since this January that I started teaching a class in person. And two years went by like that. I actually forgot how to teach in person. I had to relearn because, but I've gotten really good with the whole online environment, learning the technology, how to get students to have discussions in an online environment. I think I've almost mastered that, but now I have to relearn actually how to teach effectively in person. But it's been great. I found the students, I've been really amazed at how well they have adapted. But also because of COVID, I've been even more aware of trying to make myself

available for students because not every student has got access to technology. Not every student can master, you know, or feels comfortable having a discussion online. And some students really are missing that component of being in class face to face. And I know that, you know, it seems like the students who probably already have a pretty good system in place for getting work done and dedicating themselves to getting assignments and on time, they're not the ones struggling so much. I think it's the students who were kind of used to having, coming to class, speaking to me face to face, asking me questions as they arise in the classroom that are struggling the most. So being aware of that is really important and not assuming that all students are able or equally capable of coping, taking the course online has been really important. So I think all the faculty at UFE have probably, you know, been making more of an effort to make sure that we're available and in tune with the needs of our students because of COVID. So hopefully now going forward, let's see, but I'm looking forward to doing more of my classes in person for sure.

That's awesome. Can you tell us about what your plans are for the next couple of years? It sounds like you're rolling out some more courses. What do you hope to accomplish over these next few years? Yeah, I mean, my long-term vision is to just keep doing, you know, at the moment I'm teaching, but I've also got quite a few different research grants going on, and I've also got quite a few students working with me as research assistants. So that, I think those three things combined has made me quite busy.

So I think I need to probably reassess. I was just so eager when I first started. I was like, yes, I want to teach everything. Oh, yes, I want to apply for all of those grants. Oh, of course I can manage to supervise four students at the same time. Perhaps maybe to just realize that I'm here for the long haul and take things one step at a time and slowly and just enjoy the whole process. So I will keep, you know, working really hard at growing the program, improving the program,

trying to teach more classes, interacting with more students, and then giving and making more projects available for students to engage with me. Yeah, that's kind of my priority. Yeah, because you're also working with the Chazzy Hub as well, correct? Yeah, I'm an associate with the Shassy Hub, and actually the project I talked about, the Girls Education Project in Ghana, Rwanda, and Mozabique is actually linked to the Shassy Hub. So because of COVID, that project got put on hold, because all the schools closed, down in much of sub-Saharan Africa, they've now reopened. So we're now actually just starting that project. So hopefully through the Shassy Hub, you'll hear some updates coming on that project

and other projects. But yeah, I've really enjoyed that networking aspect as well. There's so many professors at UFE doing interesting work and so many interesting centers. And a lot of internal funding for professors who want to engage students in research, which I find amazing. I'm actually astounded by the amount of really valuable opportunities UFE puts forward for its students. I never saw that at SFU, ever. Like, you know, occasionally there might be one student picked out of 500 who are taken on as a research assistant for a professor, but at UFE, it's like I seem to see opportunities everywhere for students to get involved with faculty on really, really valuable research. Yeah, I am a huge advocate for UFE. It is.

it did me a lot of good. The professors there had huge impact on me in terms of helping me develop my perspectives, forcing me to realize that there is no conclusive solution to a lot of these challenges and encouraging me to go reach whatever my full potential looked like for me

and I think that those are role models and I've been glad to see that they're doing more things like a career chat because I think that that's how hopefully future... The idea of just telling people go to university, which is kind of what Sardis does is they just bring in a career advisor and they say you should go to university and get an education. And you don't really understand why or who you'd be learning from. And I really admire Rebecca's approach to learning about her professors

prior, figuring out if they're going to mesh well and like really taking advantage of that process and trying to educate herself on who's the person who's going to be educating me because that is certainly not the approach that I took. And I think it gives you a greater appreciation for the years that your professor has put into what they've done to be there teaching you today because there's a certain short-sightedness or immaturity of just sitting down and you tell me what I need to know and I'll just wait until you're done and then I'll do your exam and I'll leave. You miss out on, this is a person. This person's dedicated their life to learning about this topic and sharing it with you today.

And you wouldn't be able to learn or take this course had they not done that. And there are new courses that didn't exist before that are being brought about because this person knows about this and wants to, again, expand this area so you can learn more. And I think that the university's willingness to start to do career chats and take steps in that direction, I hope they continue that because it's something I truly believe in in a way of making education accessible to people. Because we talk about like, oh, maybe we should just put a university campus here. And it's like, what's less about that? And it's more about why should those people in that community go to university and why should they go to your university? And that's

where it's not about the research grants. It's about the connection that you're going to make there and the people you're going to learn from and the role models you're going to learn from. Yeah, for sure. I just kind of feel like it seems like from my experience at UFE that there's just more of a human face on everything. I just felt as a professor,

but even through the lens of the students that I saw at the bigger universities, that it was just this anonymous experience. Yeah, it just, it seems like what is so valuable at UFE is that faculty student engagement and how it's encouraged. and how there's so many opportunities that are there for students. Yes.

Thank you so much for being willing to come out today. I know that you have a busy schedule, and it's just such a pleasure to be able to sit down with somebody who really understands these issues and who's passionate about what they're doing. I think that that's come through so much that you believe in the work you're doing, that you believe in us having a larger perspective on the world, and your willingness to tell that to people and share that at every chance you get. I think that is always what I hope people take away from this.

is that there are different avenues in life and we're all going to have different ones, but we can learn from other people and we can copy the things we like and learn from those things and really feel inspired to figure out like what we can do and realizing that there are other people in other countries that are disadvantaged not only financially, but in their willingness for people to listen to them and hear their thoughts and hear where they want to take their life. And I know that there are a lot of people who listen to this who have negative parents who say you can't go to university or like you just need to go work at this dead end job and like you need to do that and so being able to hear from people like yourself has always been one of my passions

to share voices like yours because I think that it's encouraging it makes you believe that if you didn't think university was the root for you that maybe if you take it with this professor maybe it makes sense maybe it is possible and I think that that hopefully sets an example for other people to figure out what they want to do and then go follow that so I appreciate you being willing to share your story and your journey today. Thanks so much. I've really enjoyed speaking with you and sharing my stories. Yes. Well, we just did three hours. Oh, wow. Okay. That's amazing.