Nuanced. - 5. EQ in Workplace & Career Advancement | Emotional Intelligence Explained

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

In the final episode, Aaron and Carolyn explore the art of self-leadership, navigating the evolving job market, dissecting leadership styles, and offering insights on remote working, bravery in career advancement, and the importance of emotional intelligence in daily life.Join host Aaron Pete on the Bigger Than Me Podcast for an enlightening Emotional Intelligence mini-series with renowned expert Carolyn Stern. In this 5-part series, we'll delve into why EQ matters and how it affects you, your family, and your workplace. Get ready to explore the various facets of Emotional Intelligence and enhance your life in meaningful ways!Learn more about Carolyn Stern:https://carolynstern.com/Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

This book is all about how do you lead yourself? And you got to start with yourself first. Because I cannot, you know, how I show up each day, I choose how I'm going to show up. And in fact, one of my clients said they have a little post-it note that they put just outside their garage door before they leave the house. And it says, how am I going to show up today? And I wish people would ask themselves that question before they start their day. How am I going to show up today? The final episode, we've made it, Carolyn.

We're ready to dive in to a topic I think you mentioned initially that your idea was to write a book more for the workplace, but you realized that we needed to start within. Can you talk a little bit about where you were going to start with that book? Yeah, actually, I wrote, this was book number two, but I realized it was actually book number one. I do have book number two half written, because halfway through writing this book, I realized I was writing the wrong book. So the second book is going to be about how do you lead teams? This book is all about how do you lead yourself?

And you got to start with yourself first, because I cannot, you know, how I show up each day, I choose how I'm going to show up. And in fact, one of my clients said they have a little post-it note that they put just outside their garage door before they leave the house. And it says, how am I going to show up today? And I wish people would ask themselves that question before they start their day. How am I going to show up today? Because how you show up impacts the people you lead.

First, let's start with the idea of finding work, the idea that you're going to choose a lane. We ask this question perhaps too early, and then we don't ask it again. Again, we ask it in grade 7, 8, 9, 10. And then after that, it's kind of like you've chosen your gear and you're kind of stuck in this lane. When people are developing an understanding of themselves, how should they think about where they want to work and what workplace matches up with their type of approach, their type of mindset? It's actually a process that I've started doing in my leadership class at the university, which is what problems do you like to solve? rather than what role do you want to play? Because right now, let's be honest,

the jobs that exist today are not going to be the jobs that exist tomorrow. AI is going to take over all of those jobs. And I don't know. So as a professor, I have no idea what your future jobs are going to be like. All I can do is teach you, you know, in my classes, social skills, emotional intelligence skills,

like those are the things that I know will not change unless we become, work with people anymore. But I think the key really is, is trying to figure out what problems you like to solve and then that kind of be your path. I think that this is one of the biggest challenges we face because we don't know what the future holds. And there's been, I'd say, an addiction to having what your education is going to be complete and then you go off and do your job. And the people I find most admirable are the ones who go through their education and take a left turn and take a right turn and explore the different dimensions of themselves. Because to your

point, there isn't one problem you're going to want to solve the rest of your life. You're going to want to stay engaged and interested. And despite the fact that AI presents problems, it also presents the opportunity that the creative grind is going to become more needed because that's what we were designed as people to do, to be creative, to think outside to box, to fill the gaps that AI could never fill because we're unique and the problems we see are so unique. And I think it pushes us to be more entrepreneurial, more open-minded, and more artistic in our endeavors. Yeah, and I think E.I can really help AI. I think we, I mean, what does AI offer that

E.I doesn't, the human dimension, your personal experiences, only a person. can feel that. So yes, you have lots of data at your fingertips, but only you make sense of that data. And so I think it's really important that we start to continue. And again, this is why I was so adamant about teaching emotional intelligence in schools is, you know, there's so much attention put on IQ and very little on EQ. And you and I both know that when you get into the workplace, yeah, your IQ might have got you the job, but it's your EQ that's going to get you promoted. Why? Because you're leading people. And people are creatures of emotion. And whether we like it or not, we've got to learn how to tend to our emotions as well as others. How do you feel about people trying to move

forward in their career? Is there advice you have in regards to them moving up and succeeding as a leader and succeeding in moving up the corporate ladder or through their business that you see that most people don't consider? Well, I'm one of those people that took a left turn. Like if you look at my degrees. Like I was really, most of my education was in marketing. And yes, my marketing degree has helped me run a successful business and I know how to sort of position myself and differentiate myself and talk to my target audience and all of those fundamentals. But I teach emotional intelligence, which is way more about human resources than it is about marketing. And so absolutely I took a left turn because I realized, again, like what I said in the last episode, is I

wanted a deeper connection with people. And I saw something in my life that was lacking. You talked about the lack of. It's because I didn't have that growing up that I, that I craved that. And I thought, okay, as a professor, I saw what we're teaching in schools. I see as a corporate trainer what we're teaching in the workplace. I could see where that emotional gap exists. And guess what? Guess what plagues the modern workforce? Stress, anxiety, right? All of those things continue. Because if I don't teach you in school how to deal with stress, guess what? When I graduate you, you ain't going to learn how to deal with stress in the workplace. You have to learn those emotional and social skills at a young age so that you, as life continues to throw curveballs at you,

you know how to deal with it. Was it hard to take that left turn? Was it scary? And what gave you the courage to do it? Yes, it was scary. And I would be, if I'm being, honest, I, you know, I never, up until this last year, I always kept my university job. So, like, I was a professor, which paid the bills and paid the mortgage. And I was like, oh, I'm never going to be an entrepreneur and go out on my own 100%. This will be the first year that I've actually, I'm only teaching one class and it's my EQ course because I can't let my baby go. But it ain't because of the money. It's really because I believe so much. in what we're doing. When the book came out and I got not only, the awards are lovely to win,

to win a business, you know, book of the year and all of those things are great, but it's more that, oh my God, this book is changing my life. And that the fact that it's on the, you know, the corner shelf or facing out makes me realize that you people have like realized that, hey, you know, COVID happened. People realize, hey, we're emotional creatures. We're not robots. We don't come to work and, you know, just our task completers. We actually have emotions and complicated lives. And the organizations realize we're not equipped to deal with this. And so, you know, when I started my business, no one even knew what EI was, which it's been around since the 1990s. But all of a sudden now the phones are ringing off the hook because people realize there is a gap.

There's an emotional gap that we are not teaching these young kids of these skills. So to answer your question, was I scared? Heck yeah. But I think, you know, my saving grace, I would say, is I am courageous. I will, even if I'm afraid, I'll still do it. And that's the thing I think people need to remember is you can be brave and afraid at the same time. That's really important because it seems like some of the best entrepreneurs and the best creators often start with something that they do for 830 to 430 or something that's consistent that guarantees. And then slowly they dip their toe deeper and deeper into that water until, they're ready to make the full jump, but that seems to be like a best practice that I see.

Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it's the right practice, but for me, someone who's very risk-adverse, and I realize that I actually probably think more pessimistically than optimistically and that have that mental model of scarcity versus abundance, I think that was the best path for me so that I could slowly let go of the security of knowing where my paycheck was coming from. and then once I started to build up my brand and build up my name and see, it's more the impact that we're making. Like to hear the stories that people tell me, like that story that I told you of the student who I had no idea she was going to end her life.

And my comment to her and my connection with her saved her life. Like, no money can pay for that. Like that is something that I'll never take away from. That can never be taken away from. Sometimes we forget that one person can make it. difference. Absolutely. And I think people forget that our words are super powerful. And that's both positive words and negative words. I don't know about you, but there have been plenty people in my life that have said some really horrible things to me. And I still hold that as

the story I tell myself about myself. And we need to, again, take back that story and stop and say that story, yes, it was painful at the time, but it doesn't define me for the rest of my life. You're a person who understands that policies run a lot of organizations. And policies are good because they give guidance to the organization. But to me, sometimes they can become soulless. And people can forget why the policy was implemented. And then they become hardened to the idea that since the policy says it, that's the saving grace, that's what we follow, no matter what the circumstances.

And they become unempathetic, an understanding of individual. circumstances and then I would say the meaning behind the words gets lost over time and we become just rats in a race. Is this something you see often where policies impact individuals or rules impact individuals is that a primary impact or is it the boss bringing life to those words that's challenge? I think it's a combination. I think that people hide behind that. I think people say, well, this is the way we've always done it. So I'm just going to follow along. There's no critical thinking. There's no, like, hey, this circumstance is different so I can change the policy or the policy doesn't stand firm on this. I think, you know, the problem with

organizations is there's hierarchy and there's fear. Like, oh, I got to abide by the policies, but which I get, but at the same time, are you abiding? Or are you complying because that's what you were told to do? Are you committed? I think that commitment, again, goes back to the heart. This is what I want people committed to, and this is why in the book I talk about, what's your commitment to this? Like a lot of these coaching models, you know, as I teach coaching in the university, you know, I found all of these models that I was teaching my students how to coach each other were all great, but they were missing that, okay, you said you're going to do this. Well, how committed on you? On a scale of one to ten, how committed are you? Okay,

you're about a seven. What can I do to make you an eight? Or you're, you're an eight? Why aren't you a seven, you know, like to find out what's that drive that's going to, because you know and I know that the only thing that's going to make your feet move ahead each day, and it's you. You've got to be motivated to move yourself forward. And life's hard. You're going to bumps around the road. And how are you going to keep getting up? It's, you talked about UFC and, right? It's not how much, what is it, Sylvester Stallone says, it's not about how hard you hit, but how many, you know, how many times you get hit and keep getting up. It's that same kind of concept. Life's going to throw you curveballs. How are you going to deal with it? Do you think that we encourage this

sufficiently within the workplace that when you face adversity, when you have a problem that's really difficult to solve, that there's going to be some sort of reward at the end? I think of like, for entrepreneurs, often it's the long-term payoff, that one day my business is going to be big. One day I'm going to sell this amount of books. One day I'm going to sell this piece of artwork. there's a payoff. And the challenge with traditional workplaces is that there isn't a clear payoff if you make a certain amount of calls, if you do a certain amount of work, if you do in overtime. We've taken away a lot of incentives when I hear about people saying there's no overtime available at my workplace. Then there's no incentive to put in more hours and put in more effort. It seems like we've leveled the playing field to such a degree that there isn't incentives for people to want to go the extra mile the way we might have incentivized them previously. And the only outlier that I can think of is often waiting staff. People who are serving, they're the only ones with tips that encourage them to do a good job in an external way. Yeah. But why do you think we're trying to level the playing field? Personally, I think it's because greatness can be really

intimidating and jealousy is commonplace. So from my perspective, it's easier to level the playing field so the worst worker doesn't feel so bad than to risk having someone below everyone else out of the water and put in so much work. One of my past guests, Roy Ratnaval, escaped prison in Sri Lanka. And he talks about how he was willing to grind and do so many hours. And he differentiated himself and built good relationships with the bosses so he was able to climb. But in a lot of government workplaces in a lot of spaces, going the extra mile is not incentivized because it makes others feel bad about themselves rather than encouraging them to say, hey, you could be that if you tried harder.

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's true. I think it talks about intrinsic versus extrinsic motivation. What is your motivator? What is motivating you to do that extra work? You know, I think that's where you need to start thinking about, you know, what is really driving me to work harder. Is it the fancier car or, you know, the promotion?

I think you've got to figure out, you know, or do I just want to be known as someone who gives good customer service? The other question I have is about unique leaders. You're a person who understands leadership, so you may have heard that Elon Musk is an individual who slept in the place he was building cars and worked out of there. And that inspired his team to know that he was putting in an incredible amount of work. Steve Jobs has a similar story of never believing perfection was good enough. and that what he'd created was sufficient. And so are these people outdated now? Were they on the wrong path?

Is this a unique leadership style that's rare? How do you think about what they've done? I think what they've done is incredible because, again, it's the dedication. It's you are going to get a lot of nose in your life. And I think, again, as I said about what my definition of leadership was all about, is it's about going first. It's about not knowing what the outcome's going to be

and keep getting up, no matter how many times you get hit. And I think it's about perseverance, it's about persistence, it's about dedication, it's about devotion, it's about never giving up, even if you feel, like I listened to, I'll never forget I saw an Olympian share his story and he said, you know, to shave a tenth of a time off your time, he was a swimmer, to shave like a tenth of a second off your time, it takes years. but he would do it every, every day. That kind of dedication, that's the kind of person I want to be. I want to be the person that's going to die on that treadmill.

What's the biggest problem you see in workplaces when you present, when you meet with people? What's that challenge that's so common? About emotional intelligence in general. Yeah, their biggest gap. They still think emotions should be left at home and that they shouldn't talk about them. It's unprofessional. What I say in my book is having emotions is not unprofessional. Being emotional is unprofessional. So if I let my anger get the best of me and I yell and swear at you at work, that's unprofessional. But I can still be angry and not let it take over my life. And I think

these organizations that feel like, oh, shove it down, push it under the rug, pretend it doesn't exist. well, I better not talk to you about your emotions because I don't want to open Pandora's box and find out what's lurking inside. I think that's the issue that we have. And so I think if people stop being so friggin afraid of feelings, as I said, feelings are not good or bad, right or wrong. They're just an emotional reaction. So just let us have our feelings. If I feel if I'm going to cry, let me cry. If I'm going to laugh, let me laugh. It doesn't mean good, bad, right, wrong. Can you expand on the comment you made earlier about how IQ might get you the job, but EQ will allow you to climb the corporate ladder or the organizational ladder?

I think a lot of times, it goes back to that iceberg analogy that I talked about. You know, if you were to go on my LinkedIn profile, you'd see all my credentials, all the degrees I have. And yeah, maybe that got me, you know, oh, I have a degree in education. Oh, you should be a teacher. And maybe that got me my first gig. By the way, no one once asked me what my GPA was. I find it so funny about students, because you're so worried about your GPA. And I literally, I am a teacher. I could have gotten these, but no one once asked me for my transcripts. So I don't know why we're so hung up on the grade. But I think, you know, we look at our credentials and that's sort of, yeah, okay, you've got the experience, you've done your time in university, you spent the time studying

this craft, great. But as soon as you get into, and so yeah, that'll get your foot in the door, maybe. But as soon as you're working with people, you're working, you're navigating the way through emotional relationships. And that takes EQ. It doesn't take IQ. You don't have to be the smartest person. I am certainly not the smartest person, but I have seen a lot and gone through a lot and been through a lot of pain and had a lot of difficult conversations and I'm not afraid of it. And so I think if leaders, you don't have to be emotionally, and that's what I say in the book, you do not have to be highly emotionally intelligent on all 15 of these areas. I struggle with this, you know, I'm a work in progress and a masterpiece at the same time just like you. I'm struggling with this stuff just like

you are, but I'm brave enough to talk about it. So I want leaders to realize that you do not need to be perfect. My staff knows that I care to my about what people think. So they help me in that. So when I do an event and I say to my staff member, does this make me look fat? You know what her answer is? What do you think, Carolyn? She's not going to feed into my insecurity. Well, it's the same thing. If I know as your employee and I know what makes you tick for good or for bad, then I can help you. It doesn't always have to be the boss helping the employee. It can be the employee helping the boss. And one of the reasons I've been teaching for 25 years, don't think it ain't because of the money, because that didn't happen. It was because I

learned so, I love hanging out with young people because I learned so much. You all give me such faith in, because I'm going to be old, very old soon, in a rocking chair, and you're going to be running the world. And I want to know that I'm in good hands. So I love being around young people. One, it keeps me young. It keeps me hip, although I don't think hip's a hip word anymore, but it also gives me faith and hope that there are really good people out there that are doing great things. And if, you know, so much of the news focuses on, you know, we're all about doom scrolling, right? Negative news, negative. But when I meet people like you, I'm just so refreshed and I have so much more passion to do what I need to do in my lane to hopefully make a difference in the world. That is very well said, and again, speaks to the idea of optimism. Trying to climb this corporate ladder or this organizational structure, I think of needing a raise. With everything that's going on in our economy currently, things are a little bleak. So you can imagine that a lot of people are working a job that's barely paying the bills.

Some people are working multiple jobs to pay the bills. And one area that I find really interesting is this idea of trying to move up in your organization, request opportunities for further, like, compensation for your position. But I also think that that needs to come with more effort. That there was one person I listened to in like a short TikTok video that was like, if you're going to ask for more money, you have to show where your value ad is going to be. How do you think about trying to climb and succeed and find more compensation for the work you're willing to do? Or organizations, this is not a charity.

This is a back and forth. You do something for me. I'll do something for you. I'll give you a paycheck. You do something for me. So the only reason that as an organization would pay you more is if you're doing more, adding more value to the organization. The challenge is I find in my experience when I work with people is they'd ever want to talk about it. It's like, again, like emotions, money is a voodoo topic. I don't want to talk about it. I think, again, we need to be brave enough to say, okay, here's what I want. Let's put our needs out there. Here's what I'm looking for.

Here's what I'm hoping for. And then to have a conversation with their boss is, here's what I want. Here's what I'm hoping I'll be compensated for for what I want. Here's the responsibility I want to take on. What do you think I need to do to get that? Let's have a conversation. What's my development plan to get that? If you feel like I'm lacking in an area, let me know.

If you feel like I have all those areas, then let's talk about why I don't have what I feel like I'm, you know, my mother always taught me, you know, she's taught me a lot of wonderful things, but she always said, you pay someone what they think they're worth, and they will be. And so if I believe I'm worth this, then I'm going to tell you. Now, I'm not going to do it so, you know, you've got to be really careful. Again, it's, you know, 55% of what people hear is body language. So if I come in here all snotty and say, you know, I deserve a raise and I have this sense of entitlement about me, well, goodbye, right? But if I say, you know, humbly speaking, hey, here, you know, factually speaking, this is,

what I've done in the last few months. This is the value it's brought to the organization. I really want to get more responsibility. I really want the new title position. I really want a raise. Then again, you're taking the emotion out of it and you're just saying, here's the facts. Also, you know, look, you know, online. See, you know, what are people in my field making? How do I measure up? And then ultimately, if you feel like you're worse something more, then go out and get it. Ask for it. You're already out of no if you don't ask. So be assertive.

Assert yourself and ask. I love that, that you're at a no if you don't ask. Because there's something interesting about people that we view where we are as safe, despite the fact that it isn't. Like, I think about how inflation is going to impact people over time. $15 an hour is not going to be sustainable in six months when, you know, you're going to be sustainable in six months when inflation increases and all the costs the store go up, it feels like, well, just stay at this job because it's safe.

But oftentimes it can be a barrier to your comfort. It's not just staying there is going to be okay, especially when the value of your money is decreasing over time. And I don't think we always give credence to the idea that if you stay at a know, if you don't pursue these things, you're at a vulnerable position and you can't stay there. But I'm curious, you must deal with. this sometimes where organizations just operate based on seniority. And there's something missing about that as well because it's not about who's willing to work the hardest and put in the best

effort. It's about who's been with the organization, the longest. Yeah. And I see this. The three reasons why people get promoted the most is you've been with the organization long enough. So we promote you. You know the person in power or you've got the technical skills. It's never because they have the emotional intelligence skills. And I think the problem is when we promote people due to seniority, what we're doing is exactly what you said. Those people like you that are willing to work hard, get demotivated.

Well, why should I work? Because I'm the low man on the totem pole. This is, you know, I hate to say this because I'm part of a union. This is why I hate unions. Because I think it protects the people that don't want to work that hard. I think one of the reasons why I've been successful in my company is I work like, you know, people always say to me, oh, your book, you're a first time author, how come you've had so like an overnight success, 25 years of doing this, 18 hours a day, not having, like, as I said to you in the last episode, my family is my job, my baby is my job. So I've sacrificed a lot. And I love that people just want to hear the success story of the overnight success. It hasn't been overnight. It's 25 years of me working 18 hours a day, seven days a week. And I'm prepared to continue to do it.

Why? Because it doesn't feel like work. It feels, it's my passion. I know how this changed my life. I know it can change yours if you're brave enough to do the work. It's a really interesting point you make about unions because, yeah, in the early stages, they seem like they can help kind of level the playing field and make sure that people are compensated fairly.

but over 20 years, 30 years, that fight, that gusto that they had when they first formed is no longer there. And then you're paying 200, 300 bucks a month and union dues to an organization that you've never interact with that doesn't help and that doesn't push you to be better that basically just protects you from a sense of accountability. Yeah. And also, or losing your job. And so absolutely, like I said, I'm not a big fan. I think that I think hard work begets hard work. Yes, and meritocracy, it sounds like you also believe in. Yeah.

Yeah. Can we also talk about with this idea of inflation? It's at an all-time high since 2001. We're seeing it impact grocery stores. Money is a topic that is incredibly heavy for people, as we've already kind of discussed, this feeling that it's an uncomfortable topic. The reference case I'd like to use is, like, a family that loves their children but can't afford, like, Christmas gifts. or the gift that she really wants

and having that conversation even with your spouse and saying we just don't have it in the budget or it's very unrealistic to try and afford this $300 thing or this $600 Xbox or whatever it is that that's outside of the line of say how do people have these types of conversations

where there's a no-win situation in a healthy way? I think ultimately speaking what's real. Erin, you're my child. I don't have enough. money to buy you the next gadget that you want and you're going to be disappointed about it and I'm sorry but that's like I think families that you know you know my mother she worked three jobs to give me the education I had three jobs because my father didn't support that like he had

wanted nothing to do with it and so I you know this is why it's payback time now she's living with me and I'm taking care of her for the rest of her life. Because her sacrifice to put her life, my life before hers, is one of the reasons why I am who I am. It's one of the reasons why I got into emotional intelligence. I think parents need to stop, you know, trying to, you know, do more than they should overcompensate and like, oh, let's just buy him this so he'll shut up or I don't want him crying. Let the kid feel sad that they're not going to get the bad, the present that they want. People need to learn about disappointment.

They need to learn about, is it going to be an uncomfortable conversation? Absolutely. Do you want to say the conversation? Probably not, because you want to be the hero. But you got to tell your kids, this is what mummy and daddy make or mommy and mommy make or daddy make or this is what our family makes and this is what it costs for this gift. And unfortunately, this Christmas, we won't have money for that.

And I think being honest and open rather than racking up your credit cards or going into debt, you know, it's just, I think we're just putting Band-Aid's solutions on the real issue. Then how do we overcome the shame that comes with, like, there's, it's different because it's not that they didn't work hard enough. It's not that they don't care enough. It's that the world has changed in such a way that they can't afford a thing they may have been able to afford last year, but our economy has changed. in such a way that makes that unfeasible and so there's a shame that still felt that I'm not enough that other

children and other families and other communities are going to be able to afford this and I can't and had I gone to school longer had I changed to jobs five years ago had I been another person had I succeeded or gotten that promotion six months ago

I would have been the person able to deliver this how do they not go through a shame spiral they may and I think you know again as they say feel the feelings like again shame provides you a gift it definitely tells you what you can and cannot do like right now I am bounderied by how much money I bring in I'm not saying shame is like that's a good feeling to have but it's it's it's your truth it's what you're feeling then I would dig into okay if you're questioning your your value and you know you know, I didn't choose the right education or I made the wrong choices, well, what can you do?

Because, you know, you can't change everything. You can only change your circle of influence. So what can you do to make yourself feel like, okay, you know, given the circumstance, what can I do to give my child what I'm hoping? And again, it goes back to intention, right? What are you hoping? Is it about the gift? Is it about the $300 gadget? or is it about what I want that child to feel? To me, it's about that emotional connection and no money can buy that. Is there a way of overcoming this in a developmental way where we can start to grow to be able to afford those things or to inspire the child to think differently?

I'm just thinking about how we overcome these hurdles because it seems like next Christmas could be the same story. And so how do we start to get out of this? or navigate through these uncalmed waters? Well, I think, you know, when I think of like heroes, I think you've got to have hope. You've got to, I think it's that, you know, I remember once when I was in a therapy session,

my therapist said, you know, what if this was your last day on earth? What would you feel? And I said, relieved. And she said to me, okay, that's a depressed thought, but that's not all of your thoughts. What else are you feeling? And so I think a lot of times when we get in that cycle of shame, sadness, right, we can spiral down into a very, very dark place. I think really hope is our answer that there will be a better day.

Today is a really bad day, but this too shall pass. There's something also twisted about the idea that we hurt the ones we love the most. Like if it is your child and it's Christmas and the person you want to spoil with love the most is the person you're going to disappoint. the most. So there's almost like a twisted element to the idea that the people who see your flaws are not the people you see at work. Hey Bob, how's it going? It's the people who have been there for you, who've seen you at your weak moments. And those are the people you're going to disappoint on this day or on these occasions. And it's almost a darker experience than the average. Yeah. And I think, again, having those conversations with your kids. As deep as that is,

you can simplify it. Like, you know, Sally, I'm really sad that I have disappointed you today. And can I do something about that? And like, I can't buy you the gift, but what can I do to make this day better? How can I support you? Because I can't give you what you want, but I do want to make you feel better because mummy feels bad about making you feel bad. Do you think that when you do get to a financially comfortable position, there's a danger in having money blur the lines between how people truly feel that you can buy your way out of pain and discomfort?

Absolutely. Money is a very emotional topic. You know, I work with estate planners and trust planners, right? Like, your families are ruined because of money, you know, and I think that, you know, I think money means so many things beyond what money is. There's such an emotional attachment to, oh, I decided to give, you know, here's my legacy, here's my will, I want to give this person this, and people fight about this for years. So absolutely, I think it's a very emotional topic. How do people make sure that they don't, because there's this whole argument around, like, don't let money control you or make your decisions, like enjoy, like going for a walk that's free, like make sure that you don't become obsessed over spending money to find joy,

but it does open new avenues for pleasure and joy. How do we find that balance? I think it's remembering. I think this is when you see all these very successful people that have a lot. It's kind of going back to the basics, remembering what's important to you, remembering what you value. Like, because you're right, having nice things. I'll never forget.

I was dating someone once and we broke up and I moved out of his house and he was a multi-millionaire and I turned to my realtor and I said, where am I ever going to get this closet again? Because he had made a bedroom into a sex in the city closet. It was so amazing. And you know what? The realtor said to me, Carolyn, it's just wood. And I thought, you know, that's so bright.

And I'm so glad we ended the relationship. He wasn't the right person for me. But so much time, we put so much energy and emotion and attachment onto something that you're right. It's just wood. If I want a closet, which, by the way, I can now buy myself that closet. need a man to give me that closet. But at that moment, it was so painful and emotional to me was hard to see the forest from the trees. Right. Remote work has been something that's been coming about more and more. And through a pandemic, we've obviously gotten more exposure to the

opportunity to have more of a work-life balance, to see how productive we could be from home. What are your thoughts on remote work? It's a double-edged sword, right? I mean, I think it's polarized a lot of people. It's made things more divisive. Are you a techie person or are you not techie? Well, if I'm not techie, I'm scrambling doing the Zoom meetings. If you're techie, you're moving further ahead. I think the introverts versus extroverts, the introverts are loving being at home. The extroverts are craving connection. I think this, you know, this self-focused versus other focused. You know, people don't want to go back to work because it's way better for me to not waste time on my commute. But if I don't go back to work, then the buses stop running,

the world stops, like, the economy, like, I got to go back to work so that the economy continues, right? So we've got to, I think what the remote work has done has, it really has made a bigger divide in what was already a pretty divisive community. But what remote remote work has done for people is there's been a lot of loneliness. There's been a lot of isolation. There's been, but the positive is, you know, it's been better work-life balance. I can, you know, I don't waste my time on the commute going to work every day. It's been challenging. Like now, how do I collaborate with you if I'm no longer in the boardroom and we can't, you know, feed off each other's energy? I think people are making these Zoom meetings.

be too much of a barrier because as much as obviously I encourage people to put their cameras on because again 55% of what people hear is body language and you need to read people and read the room and hear their tone of voice and hear their words but I think people are using it as excuse so I can't connect with you as much because you're now on a Zoom call I actually think the opposite I feel when you're at home and I'm at home I now get to see a little piece of your world. You're now at home in your comfort of your environment. I think for some, in particular, when I teach, for some students, has been very much more comfortable to do a presentation on Zoom because they're in the comfort of their own home and then in their surroundings. And yes,

it's 35 little faces looking at them, but they don't have all those eyes directly and they can feel sort of the chair that they're sitting on or in their own home. But I think a lot of people, In particular, a lot of organizations are using it as, oh, well, we can't connect because we're not in the same office. And I actually think there could be a deeper connection if we started having those deeper conversations. Final question of this amazing series. What do you think people, what do you hope people will take away from your book if they read it? If that emotions are not the enemy, you do not need to be afraid of your feeling. they come and go, they hurt like hell, they're really personal and they're incredibly

painful, but they're transient and subjective. And we need to stop being so afraid of them, but we do need the tools on how to manage them, how to express them, how to label them, how to understand them, how to recognize them. And that is why I wrote the book, is to give people a roadmap of what is my emotional makeup, how is that help, how is that helping and hurting me. Any final reflections after the series? What have you taken away from this? Well, I've learned so much about you and so much, and I have so many more questions that,

like I would love to come back. I have loved doing this. Like I said, I reached out to you because I just saw such talent. I think people can say a lot about me. The one gift I think I have is I can see talent when I, when I, is in front of me. And I've done a lot of podcasts, a lot of interviews. a lot of television interviews, you certainly stood out. So I hope, you know, I wish you nothing but the butt. I hope we stay in touch and we'll stay connected. But it's, you've refreshed

me to remember that there are really good people out there, really wonderful people that when I'm in that wheelchair and rocking on that in that chair, there's some really good people taking care of this planet. Well, I can't thank you enough for reaching out, for proposing this. I think it's such an opportunity to really explore some of the dimensions of what you know so much about and it gives people the tools to kind of start to reflect and work on themselves in an incremental way. And I love the design of this because we're able to explore different pieces of people's lives. A lot of this, their work life, their family life, that's 98% of their life. So we've been able to explore what you know about these areas and hopefully make it in an accessible way

and then encourage people to go read your book so that they can continue to understand themselves deeper. Are you able to just talk about some of these self-assessments at the end of your book? Yeah, so one of the biggest things that I encourage people to do is I get them to decide where they are on that continuum for those 15 different emotional intelligent competencies. So, for instance, are you confident or are you too confident? Are you fulfilled or are you not fulfilled at all? Are you aware of your emotions? Or are you completely oblivious to them? Can you express yourself constructively, or do you yell and swear when you have something to say?

All of those questions I ask that I take the reader through to figure out where their emotional makeup is. And what I do want to say to you, which you said, I think, in a previous episode, whatever it is, it's a starting point. It's a baseline. Don't let, no matter where your levels are, it's just where you are today. But what the goal of the book is, is where do you want to go? What does that ideal, the best self, myself look like in the future? And I'm living proof of that. The byproduct of emotional intelligence is you are going to be happier.

And I went from suicidal to I've never been happier. Is my life perfect? Absolutely not. But I am content. And I know I can handle whatever life throws my way. And that's becoming really emotionally resilient to life's curveballs. Well, I can't thank you enough. I think part of the beauty of this mini-series is how raw you were, how honest you were about the experiences you've had.

I think that makes it relatable for people to know that they're not alone when they're dealing with some of these challenges. You're not a guru who's never faced any of these problems before. You understand this from a first-person perspective. You understand what it's like to face these problems. And so you're able to bring the real practical information on how to overcome them. And I think that's so valuable for people. So I encourage everyone to go grab the book, go check it out. do these self-assessments because we as a society are better off when individuals reach

their full potential, whether that be emotionally, intellectually, or in a community spirit kind of way, we're lucky and we're enriched by when people take these steps in their own lives. Yeah, absolutely. 100% agree. Thank you. Thank you.