Nuanced. - 53. Kris Cu: Wildlife Photographer, Science Communicator & Birder

Episode Date: April 25, 2022

Aaron asks Kris Cu about moving from the Philippines to Canada, finding his passion for nature, researching bugs, and photographing birds throughout British Columbia. In this conversation, Kris and Aaron go through the amazing photos Kris has taken of owls, birds, ducks and other animals. More specifically, Kris shares his tools, techniques and ethics around his nature photography. Kris identifies himself as a birder, and shares the apps he uses to identify birds and hear their calls, camera equipment and tools he uses to capture photographs of various birds.Kris Cu is a biological sciences alumnus from SFU and the Conservation Engagement and Outreach worker for Birds Canada. He is passionate about biodiversity conservation, sustainability and science communication. In his spare time, he enjoys capturing images of wildlife, landscapes and outdoor portraits.Visit Kris Cu's Nature Photography Website: https://www.kriscu.com/ Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

This episode is sponsored by the Real Estate Foundation of BC. REFBC is a philanthropic organization that supports sustainable, equitable, and socially just relationships with land and water. Learn more about the foundation's grants and initiatives at REFBC.com. My name is Chris Kuh, and I am a nature photographer and the conservation outreach and engagement worker for birds, Canada, BC. And for my work, I do communications and outreach. So that comes in many different forms, such as photography, videography, giving webinars, leading bird walks, and yeah, just general all things, birds. Amazing. Can you tell us about how, when did you become interested in nature or the environment? Because I think for some, we're so disconnected from it. And I'm just interested

to understand when people make those tie-ins and when they start to go, like, this is so interesting. And for some, it's bees, for others, it's like things that swim in the ocean. For you, it seems to be more nature and birds. And so could you tell us a little bit about that journey? Yeah, for sure. I actually grew up in Manila and the Philippines. And as with any young kid, I was obsessed with nature, dinosaurs in particular. But the funny thing is, like, back home in that city, there's little to no green space to explore as a kid.

So the way I experienced nature was through, like, TV shows on, like, BBC Earth or National Geographic or Animal Planet, and also just reading, like, a ton of books from the library about reptiles, amphibians, insects, fish, whatever they have. because I was just so like curious and I really wanted to yeah experience nature but I couldn't like there wasn't a ton of space so I did it through like various media like that and then for some reason I just kept holding on to that and at some point back home my dad got into birding because he saw an ad on a newspaper and it was like talking about all the different birds that we have natively to the region. And we thought the only birds that we had were like invasive house sparrows, which we called Mayas back home. So we're like, oh, there's other birds beside Maya. That's weird. So I picked up birding then and unfortunately I dropped

it a little bit when we moved to Canada because it was just my fault. I was a little bit underwhelmed by like the birds here like they're not like you know bright yellow or red or blue or green I was like oh that's weird so which is my fault because you know all the birds here have their own unique beauty so but yeah and then I was able to pick it up again like 2019 through bird photography which I'm very grateful for interesting can you tell us about growing up in the Philippines that seems really interesting and the fact that it was perhaps you didn't have as much access to nature, made you more passionate about it. Can you tell us about what it was like to live there and perhaps moving into Canada and what that kind of change was like? Yeah, it was

very urban. Like, the famous pastime to do there is to go to malls and like go shopping or things like that. And it got quite repetitive to me as a kid because, you know, I got tired of like hearing tricycles like barrel down the road or jeeps or like air pollution and things like that and so I always wanted to like escape to somewhere a little bit more natural and you know like look at bugs and birds and things like that um and so when we moved to Canada and I remember we first moved to Winnipeg and I just remember seeing like deer like walking along the side of people's houses I was like oh my gosh this is crazy But there's nobody freaking out.

Or like bunnies or things like that. Yeah, because it's just something I never experienced as a kid, right? Like there, it's like a different mindset of seeing animals in wildlife as like resources to like consume versus here, you know. It's a bit more. There's a lot more like respect to like nature and wildlife. Interesting. Which is what I always thought was supposed the way it was supposed to be. But back home, it was kind of a little bit odd.

Like, you know, for example, somebody finds a deer, you know, they're going to shoot it and they're going to eat it. Yeah. Right. But yeah, like that different sort of mindset was just like, I was so happy, like, seeing deer around Winnipeg. Interesting. Just lots of green space. Where did your family move to from the Philippines? What, like, what area and what called them to move here?

Yeah. So, yeah, we moved from Manila, which is the capital in the Philippines. and then we first moved to Winnipeg and we moved for a couple of reasons. It was definitely for better opportunity for my parents thought it's better opportunity for our family. I have two brothers and we were in, my eldest brother was in high school and I was also in high school then and they just wanted something different for us because there's a little bit of like nepotism that goes on back home. So, you know, it's not necessarily how good you are as a, to get into a career.

It's more of like who you know or like your uncle knows this person or you're as close friends with this person. And yeah, my parents didn't want us to like grow up with that and just kind of like those business dealings that go on. And yeah, they wanted something a bit better for us. That's amazing. And so Winnipeg, when did you end up? Is that why you weren't a huge fan of birds to begin with? We first moved to Winnipeg because we had relatives there, and they were the ones who sponsored us. So we're very grateful for that.

But yeah, it was quite the change from like 40-degree, you know, tropical rainforest sort of temperature. And then you can go to like negative 40 in the winter. It's a lot of snow. And then what was the change? When did you move to BC? Moved to BC in 2015. So we stayed in a pike for about two years. And then my parents decided there's like nothing for us to do here.

It's quite slow. And, you know, coming from like a very busy city, we wanted some more opportunities. And so, yeah, we moved to BC in 2015. And what were those changes like? Did it impact you at all? Like we hear the term culture shock. Was that, did that affect you at all? Oh, yeah, 100%.

Um, my family grew up, uh, well, we went to an all-boys Catholic school back home. So, and then we moved straight into public school when we went to Winnipeg. And back in my old school, they were very strict. Like, um, everybody had, like, standards for a certain sort of haircut. And like, you know, can't touch, like, the top of your ear or, like, can't touch, like, the collar of your, of your uniform. And you have to, like, ask permission to, um, drink water or stand up or. Oh my gosh. drink water wow I can understand that going to the bathroom one by drinking water wow yep so it was quite strict

and I understand why they were like that they wanted to instill discipline into like all these young boys but yeah it was quite different and then when I moved to Winnipeg

I went to Sturgeon Heights high school and there were kids like putting their feet up on the table and I was like what's going on here you're going to get set out to like the principal right like that's something that will never be tolerated back home so I was quite surprised interesting do you did you like appreciate the the strictness it's easy to think that like from my perspective like that's crazy

but there is and I've talked about this before like in Israel right now they have the draft still There's challenges to making sure that people develop fully, that they have a sense of discipline, a sense of responsibility, and that's one of the things I sort of worry about with the people around me is that they're not being called to like take responsibility for perhaps the environment for their family. Many people are like, they want to move out, they want to leave their parents behind. But at some point in time, you're going to have to take care of them. They're the people who helped raise you. You're going to have to take care of them. And so that sense of responsibility, I think, sometimes gets lost here in Canada. And I've talked to Scott Sheffield, who's a military historian.

And we kind of talked about, like, how do we make sure that people develop, but in a way that's not nonsensical or unfair, or in a way that's going to discourage them? Because not being able to drink water, that might be too far. But there needs to be some sort of discipline. So I'm just interested to know how that kind of shaped you. Yeah. That's a great question. It's definitely, I don't think I would be the same person I am today if it wasn't for that sort of like education information. As strict as they were, they really did shape, well, they did their best to shape students to like be like a servant for others or doing more than what is expected of you. So I'm definitely very grateful for growing up with like those qualities and I would definitely say like when I move to Canada like my qualities as a person has already been like solidified and I just kind of matured in this country but that's sort of like being kind to others and like you know taking responsibility

for your actions and things like that that's amazing because I think that that's something that it's easy to kind of push off into the future but when you do it I don't for me I feel better when I'm making sure that if I wrong someone or if I came across the wrong way that I'm checking in and trying to make sure that I'm doing things correctly because I don't want to burn a bridge unnecessarily. I want to make sure that people feel understood and valued around me. But it does seem like a lot of those values come from more religious sides. And I'm interested in like the overlap between my grandmother was a Roman Catholic, but I'm

indigenous and so trying to bring the two together to see what they were trying to teach what kind of wisdom they were trying to share because I think we often get lost in like intelligence how smart are you how did you do on that test but how you treat people is far more indicative of like the quality of life you're going to live than just the grades you get and I think it's interesting to see how religion shapes us even if you're not practicing even if you're not involved anymore those early developmental years seem to to imprint something on people. For sure. And yeah, I've always

had that dilemma too. Like now that I'm, you know, been able to think about it more critically. Like, the Spanish, like, came to our country and colonized our indigenous people and converted them. And, like, I've always wondered, like, what would have

it been like if, you know, they didn't like convert everybody to Catholicism? But at the same time, I wouldn't be the same person I am today if it wasn't for them. That's the complicated. thing, right? I've sat down with Keith Carlson, who is interested in the history, and

we talk about, because there's this kind of tying together of what happened at Indian residential schools to the Catholic Church. And it's complicated, and I talked to Andrew Victor, who's a pastor about this, but he's also an indigenous pastor,

about like, is it clear that the tenants of the belief system caused the problems? Or was it bad people. And I think Keith Carlson does a good job of kind of highlighting that these schools were set up in such a way that they attracted the worst kind of human being. You're going to be alone in the middle of nowhere, completely unsupervised with children. That calls certain people who have abusive tendencies who want to cause harm to children. That's like a flag to them

of like, come over here, there's no oversight for these children. And so that was a problem just with the setup of it. Now, I, of course, do not agree with Indian residential schools to begin with. But that is a complex problem as to why there was perhaps more sexual abuse in these schools in comparison to other schools is based on the setup of your honor reserve in the middle of nowhere. And so I don't want us to throw the religious ideas, the values that help people be a good person, with just like all religions are bad. I think that that's just a dangerous route to go down

because every once in a while there's someone who is really insightful on something that I didn't consider about the belief system. And I think we underestimate the values to our peril, but I used to be that person who was like, I don't need religion, that's silliness, that's superstition, and now I'm starting to appreciate it more.

Yeah, for sure. No, that's a great way of, like, yeah, pointing that out. And, yeah, never thought about it that way. That's a great analysis. Yeah. So when you come to BC, is that when you started getting back into, you went to Simon Fraser University? When did you realize that, like, biology and nature was the path for you?

Well, I've always knew that I was going to go into, like, biology and conservation in some way, shape, or form. Like I mentioned, ever since I was a kid, I was just obsessed with it and just never let it go. so yeah coming into like going into SFU I already knew that I wanted to be like some sort of like biologist and so that was the path to pursue and yeah through my university experience lots of different things everywhere like podcasting as you mentioned and yeah and just took on those opportunities can you tell us more about that because I think that university is often touted as like this is where you go learn things and for people who don't attend for people who don't see themselves as university people. I always feel like that's unfortunate because they kind of,

they're thinking of the tests, they're thinking of the studying, but you seem to have found a community of people with like-minded interests. And I'm interested to know what that kind of educational journey was like because you figured out what your passion was, but you also found a way to make it interweave with everything you did at SFU. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, It can be daunting to get into university and, you know, just only think about the tests and, like, the midterms that, you know, people talk to you about. But definitely for me, university was more for like a professional development. I joined the co-op program as well, so I was able to get into a couple of, like, job opportunities and see what it's actually like. and the more I learned about like biology

and what you need to be like a good biologist the more it became more of like a stats and genetics sort of career and that's something that I know is super super critical and important but I found that it wasn't really something that I personally find joy in doing and so what I started to do was delve into like science communication and like talking about birds and like talking about insects and writing articles about people's research, which I found really interesting in talking to researchers.

And so I just kind of, yeah, through my university experience, I just kind of started embarking on what I call like passion projects, things that, you know, you find a need for, but no one's doing it. And so I jump on something like that, or, yeah, I talk to different people and try new things out, that are in the realm of biology, but not specifically the science itself. Interesting. Can you tell us about what that was like? What did you learn through your biology education? What did you sort of take away from it that built upon your passion? Yeah, I would say the thing that impacted me the most was learning about evolution.

So learning about the history of this planet and how like all the species we see today. have come so far and like all these unique adaptations are a result of like four billion years of evolution and all the life that has been on this planet before. It's just incredible. And I remember sitting through like, you know, classes like that and where my professor was talking about, there used to be like giant insects during the carboniferous and, you know, dragonflies the size of, you know, people. And I'm like, oh, why are we talking about that? That's kind of cool. Yeah, what that was like there were giant bears too, right? They were just like all the species were crazy big.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, there were points in history where there's just massive animals like roaming around. I was like, that's pretty cool. Like, you know, that would be fun to like talk about and research and kind of explore a little bit more. Does, do you feel like we talk about that enough? Like, what is your viewpoint on, like, our understanding of like life's history? Yeah, I definitely don't think we kind of appreciate it enough. because as people, we're kind of concerned with ourselves and what we're doing now

and what we're going to be doing for the rest of our lives, for example, right? But if you look at the grand scheme of things, we're here for like a blip. The universe is history. Like, you know, Earth has been around for like four billion years. And dinosaurs have been around for like 300 million years or something like that. And like humans have only been. around for like 200,000 years and I saw in a documentary before where they described it as if you fit all of Earth's history onto like a 24 hour clock where do humans fit just a few

seconds before midnight. Oh my gosh. So that's how like early and young we are in like this planet's history and I think if people talked about it more in like a larger scale then we're able to appreciate everything more in nature like how it's come to be and how we're going to existing with this current biodiversity and how we should be protecting and appreciating them more. Yeah, I have a suspicion that we have like an increase in anxiety

and increase in depression but I feel like a lot of that is because we're so disconnected from the things that remind us to stay humble. So like you took this amazing photo of like the night sky and then you remember that we are like

literally like a small little dot hurtling through space. and just like the earth is spinning the sun is moving like everything is moving around us and we're just kind of flying through space and you can forget that if you're in an apartment and then you go to work in an office and then you go back to your apartment you can start to forget that we're just kind of flying through space you can start to forget about your role like one of the interesting things to me is people who believe in reincarnation it's not that that's not possible it's just like to me the best way to look at it is like your kids are your reincarnation. Your kids are the you can make, you can like try and help them remove all the baggage from your life. You can say, this is how I messed up, this is what I did wrong. This is what you shouldn't do because it was a waste of time and I was silly for trying this. And then you can say, these are all the things I did right. So utilize that knowledge and go do better. And they're like, they're you going into the future without all your

mistakes. And I think that's just an optimistic way to look, but we all, there's like this desire for us all to live forever. And I think that when you're striving for that or wishing that that were the case, you're forgetting that you have a role to play today, that you can improve the circumstances of your children, of your community, of your family, of everything around you today. When you're wishing that things weren't going to come to an end, it seems like you're kind of neglecting that responsibility to how you treat other people, how you shop if you're shopping the best you can in trying to be strategic in how you're purchasing. You can forget all those things because you're wishing that it wasn't going to come to an end

and you're kind of hedging your bets on that rather than let's assume that it's not going to go on forever, that you're just a blip in this time, but that that's an important blip. And there have been people, if you think back in history, you can think of a few names of people who played like a huge role in where we are today and the values that we carry and that we all kind of sort of take for granted today like freedom of expression. Somebody had to come up with that idea and explain why that idea wasn't nonsensical. Somebody had to come up with the ideas for like the values that we have today like innocent until proven guilty. And so people played an important role and we rely on their knowledge from 100 years ago to do better today. And I think

that that hopefully is inspiring to people that you are. just a blip, but it's an important blip. For sure. And yeah, that especially comes up with people who just don't want to deal with climate change, right? Like they say, well, I'm going to be gone, you know, in like this predicted amount of years and it's not really going to affect me. But like that the choice, yeah, the choices that you make today will affect the people who are going to live after you,

which is even more important because you're shaping their future. And, you know, they can't do anything about it. So, yeah, that's something how people kind of take away as well. Just, you know, it's a small fraction of, you know, the universe is history, but it's an important one that you're in it and what your actions matter and things you say matter. Yeah, I think that climate change conversation is just, it's because we had that problem with the ozone layer, I think in the 1980s or 90s, that they actually ended up fixing. And the nice thing about it was that it was clear that there was a hole in the ozone layer.

and everyone could go, there it is, and I think even then there were still people disputing whether or not it was actually happening, but it was simpler. Now we have this problem of like, I feel like a lot of the policies to correct climate change are falling more on individuals. And I think the challenge the individuals have with that is they look at a giant corporation pouring out whatever pollutant, and then they don't see or feel the same obligation on that corporation as they feel and that it's somehow disproportionate. And so there's this desire to push that back onto the corporation.

And then it's like they don't want the responsibility anymore. And I think that that seems to be the challenge is that the conversation is more complex than I think any conversation we've had previously in regards to like people will say, well, you should switch your like gas vehicle to electric. And then another person will say, well, what about the batteries in electric cars? they're not perfect and then it's like you can just complexify i don't think that's a word um you can make the conversation so complex as it like it isn't clear what you can do but and then people try and simplify it down to like recycle reuse reduce like don't waste stuff and i think

it's valuable but it seems like we're just spinning our wheels in all these like trivial questions of well was it was it this or was it that and it just feels like i see so many people get lost in the minutia of the conversation, that it's tough to get anywhere with this particular conversation. I don't know if that's true with, like, you think of the Cold War. I don't know if it's true with all problems, but it seems like that's where we're at right now. So many people are on board, but then there's a whole other group of people who aren't on board, and it's like they're trying to make the situation so complex that they don't want to do anything. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, it's just unfortunate that because climate change is so complex and, you know, emissions come from like literally everything we do.

There's a lot of like fingers like going around, like pointing at other people for the responsibility. That's a really good way of putting it, just fingers being pointed rather than just kind of taking that responsibility on. So when you were with SFU, you were part of some clubs and stuff. Can you tell us about how that impacted you? Yeah, I was part of a couple clubs at SFU as well as some research labs. It was really great to able to talk to researchers and like-minded people about things that I was passionate with. Like when I was, when you're in like elementary or high school, not everybody's into like snakes or beetles. They're like, oh, that's kind of weird, especially as a teen.

so it's good to like join those groups and clubs and have you know people completely nerd out over like the same things that you do and it was also a great way to like make connections and learn about like what it's like to do research as well and what it takes can you tell us about what kind of research you're talking about because for some people they've never done research before they don't know what the processes or what that may look like at a university yeah um so most of my professional experience in biology is with insects and a lot of like the research that we do involve like conservation or management of insects at least in the labs that I went to and it was really an eye-opening experience to learn like how important data is when i was working in agriculture and agri-food Canada in summerland a research technician Tyler was telling us that data sets have to be like 30 years old to be robust enough to be analyzed and to have like meaningful, meaningful results. And that's just crazy to me, right? Again, because, you know,

we kind of think in like these smaller human lifetime scales. But it's true that if you're trying to study something long term, you need a really broad range of data to be able to determine like if a species is actually declining or if it's like expanding into a place that we don't want it to, instead of just taking like five years' worth of data, right? Right. That makes me think of the pine beetle. Oh, I think it's an invasive species. I don't know what happened to that.

I feel like we were worried about it taking over all our forests, and I haven't really heard anything about that. Yeah, the mountain pine beetle kind of disappeared as well. I'm not sure what happened there. But yeah, it was a story about, it's actually not invasive. It's native to our province. But just the fact that because it is getting warmer, the beetles are able to survive longer and, like, prey on a lot more of our trees and, like, evergreens. And, yeah, we haven't really heard much about that.

Like, other things going on in the news, like murder hornets. Yeah, that was an interesting conversation I had on the murder hornets. That was crazy. I'm glad to know that they're not thriving, that it looks like we've eradicated them. But, yeah, to call something a murder her, Hornet is just terrifying. Yeah, I think that's mostly the media, right? They want to get like headlines and story grabers and things like that. Yeah, Paul Van Westendorp, who I spoke to about it,

he did a great job of kind of summarizing how, like, the U.S. had one patch of them, and that's where a lot of the media came from, and that it got blown up into a big story, and they love reporting on those types of things. And yeah, it's just interesting to hear somebody be like, yeah, no, everything's fine. There's no reason to be concerned. And then you watch the news, and it seems like we're all going to get eaten alive. Yeah, for sure.

But, yeah, the photos and videos that came out of that start was pretty cool, though, like, some gear that, you know, you even see people wearing, like, really thick suits and, like, these canisters full of, like, the hornets. Pretty cool. Yeah, he, Paul explained that they sent people, because there was one found in the night. And so they sent a person in knowing that they weren't going to kill them all, that they wanted to preserve them to figure out what they were, where they come from. And it was just interesting to know that there's a person who had to go in knew they were going to be stung by a potentially like killer B and killer Hornet. He would not like me saying killer B. Killer Hornet. And that person was like, I'm fine with it because I've been stung before by other things.

And it's like, I don't think normal people could handle that job. Yep. You definitely have to be used to getting stoned by insects like that. Would you say that you're interested in all life, or do you lean towards, you were talking about, like, working with bugs and now you work more with birds? Is it all of it, or do you have preferences? I'm trying to get better with just knowing and liking all of them. But I definitely am a little bit biased towards birds and bugs and bugs. for sure, but yeah, I think I can't like just glorify one group because they're all just so wonderful and they have all their own unique adaptations and life histories and, you know, I don't want to overlook all of that. So yeah, just getting to know more about like different groups and tax are super interesting to me. And yeah.

Well, let's start with bugs then because I spoke to Eddie Gardner and he, identified bugs as the ones that crawl. And as I've said before, I don't know if he's doing that deliberately to like, bugs is almost used as like a word of like get that thing off me and like don't bug me. Like we've used it as like a derogatory term. So him saying the ones that crawl instead showed more respect. And I think that that's really interesting. So can you tell us about some of the bugs you've studied and and what you saw that was interesting about them? Yeah. Um, Insects are so interesting. They are the most, like, diverse group of animals on the planet.

And beetles alone have, like, five, I'm missing the figure, but in the hundreds of thousands of species. Oh, my gosh. Which is crazy. Funny story. When Darwin actually was first writing up his work on evolution, and there was a contradiction, you know, with people saying, oh, this is not aligned with the creation. story on the Bible. He said, oh, then God must have like an infinite fondness of beetles because there's just so many of them, like so many different times. But yeah, I was involved in kind of butterfly research at SFU with the now Dr. Jamie Luthwaite. She was a PhD student

before. It was super cool. She was looking into how butterfly species ranges were like expanding or contracting because of climate change. Ranges, as in how far they can fly? Yes, or like how far they're kind of observed or detected. So, yeah, a couple of species. Most species were, like, expanding because it's getting warmer. So a lot of, like, species you'd see normally in, like, lower, more temperate climates are starting to move up into the Arctic because it's getting warmer over there.

So, yeah, that was really cool research. and we had an opportunity to try and capture some Mormon metal marks in the Okanagan because they were endangered and we wanted to see if they were viable for captive breeding. What did you just say? Mormon metal marks, they're kind of butterfly. Oh, wow. What type of butterfly are these? They're just kind of like orange, grayish butterflies.

and they feed specifically on like rabbit brush I believe and so there's only a few patches left in the Oknagan because most of it is kind of developed into agriculture and so that's why the butterfly was declining because they're quite specialist to like these particular plants and it's the Morgan Mormon Metal Mark Mormon Melan Mark Metal Mark Metal Mark

Metal Mark yeah Mormon Metal Mark I just realized it's a weird name I'm trying to, like, figure out how I would say that fast. The fact that you did was very impressive. Yes. But, yeah, that was super interesting. Yeah, those guys were difficult because they were quite small, and they hide really well around, like, the sagebrush and things like that.

Interesting. So you would, since they're declining, and they might be, it sounds like, endangered. And that's due to agriculture. And I think, again, it's just interesting to, like, understand that, building these monocrop spaces is a real is a real challenge when I talked to Paul

Van Westendorp, one of his arguments to save bees because we still see dwindling bee populations in lifespans that was one of the challenges he was talking about they're not living as long

and they're not as effective as they once were so we're having to breed even more of them that die faster and don't live as long and they're less effective and one of his solutions for cranberry and blueberry farmers

was to just leave a patch of the space because bumblebees, this was crazy, bumblebees don't communicate with each other. Honeybees do a dance in their hive. I'm just the only person who didn't know that and still thinks that's crazy. No, it's great. So honeybees dance, but bumblebees don't. So they just kind of go out everywhere and don't know where they're going. And he was like, well, if we put just like patches,

leave the plants there so that the bumblebees can have a place to go all throughout the season then they'll survive and they won't die and then you'll be able to use them for longer term

and then the farmers from what he said were like no because that's a waste of my patch of farm and I can maximize and it's like you're like we talk about like biodiversity and then when there's like a tangible stab and then the people are like no

because I don't make money off of that and it's like right but you're saving the planet from losing these butterflies or these bees are like you're making a world more effective and more biodiverse like that that word seems like it's growing maybe you can define that for people yeah um no just to touch on that um it's definitely um yeah a challenge to try and kind of like pitch this to people who want to make money off like their land right especially in like developing countries where they're just trying to make a living and then you have all these organizations saying, hey, you should like plant other stuff around here.

And they're like, well, you know, who's going to pay me for that? And so therein comes a challenge, you know, you have to like pay a premium to these people who are actually doing good. And so it's not just getting, you know, the land isn't just getting wasted to them. But yeah, I think we definitely need to think more holistically about biodiversity, which is just essentially all the life that's kind of defined in a given place or region. And we have to move away from just, you know, growing monoculture and thinking about it just in like the dollar value because as, you know, ecology is like all very intertwined and all the species depend on each other for survival and for growth.

And so we can't just kind of cut that sort of process away and just have something that will benefit us like specifically, right? so yeah that is super interesting and so after the butterflies did you do any other research because this is just super interesting to learn about like the research

of bugs and life because the other one that's really interesting is like how that fungi takes over I think is it is it ants I think it's ants like the biology is very interesting it is yeah

and especially like the insect scale because everything is so diverse there like it's not like with birds for example you look at a bald eagle and you say that's a bald eagle because it's got a white head and like yellow beak and it's like this size it's large but with insects because they're so diverse like from species to species the differences might just be like a little structure and like under the wing and that makes it really difficult to like properly define like how many there are like how diverse they are

that's why it's also difficult to manage pest insects because their genetics are so diverse like if you try to target one population somebody's going to have like a different gene that you know um is able to um survive like a certain pesticides and then they're going to like start reproducing it so that's why it's like continuously people are continuously making like um stronger and stronger pesticides right um because the insects are just so diverse and it's just yeah they're able to adapt to almost everything yeah that was one thing that paul explained as well which was like we have this instinct to spray everything just to just to be safe but what he was saying was that there are actually like birds and and other bugs that eat the dangerous or like the harmful bugs that are causing a problem and so it's

only when that relationship becomes out of sync and there's more harmful bugs than good bugs that you need to spray that you need to take action but the instinct because it's easy is to just spray all the time and I was that just blew my mind of like I would want to just spray. Like, my instinct would be like, I don't want to go look for bugs to figure out what the relationship is. That lazy side of people seems to have a lot of consequences. Yeah, for sure. And when I was working in Summerland, again, I was working in a biological control lab, which essentially means we're using natural predators and, like, parasitoids to manage. I want to move away from using control because we can't really control pests. We're more like managing the populations, because

there will always be some sort of pests around. If you have like a field for like really good crops, it's like a candy, you know, candy store to like a kid. Of course they're going to come and pick on something, which is how we chose to grow our crops. And so it's more of like managing the amount of pests in like a particular place, not just like controlling them or eradicating them. And through the research in our lab, we were using, are you familiar with parasitoids? No.

They are specialized wasps. that lay eggs on particular insects. So it's kind of like that movie alien where, for example, we have like lots of fruit fly species that, you know, eat blueberries and crops like that. And so what we have are parasitoids that we release in the same environment,

and the parasitoids will lay their eggs on the fruit fly eggs, and what emerges out of those eggs, are parasitoids, like other wasps, not the pest insects. And so it's like this interesting sort of control where you're not spraying anything and you're just using, like, nature's natural predators and parasitoids to, like, manage that pest population. Hold on, are you saying for all the people who hate wasps, are you saying the wasps actually

contribute? Because that's the knock that I've heard on them is, like, wasps don't, like, make honey. Wasps don't do these things. Can you elaborate? Yeah, there's tons and tons of species of wasps, and I think most people have this negative attitude towards them because of the yellow jackets, which are the most common ones. And they typically can sting you.

They're sometimes a little bit aggressive. But wastes are definitely beneficial to ecology because they manage a lot of inside populations, and especially with things like pest management, you know, if you like eating blueberries, you know, it's nice to have wasps around because they're getting all the pests that are eating your blueberries. Ah, every time I think that there's something I know that like a wass are a good thing. I keep learning more.

It keeps blowing my mind. I watched a documentary with a UBC professor and she was explaining that like trees, this is when like I just threw out like, because we don't say it, but we walk around with this attitude, like, I'm a person, so I'm better than a tree. Like, I'm more valuable than a tree. And then Susan Simmerd, who's a mycologist at UBC, and I think she's written a book, and she was on a Netflix documentary called Fantastic Fungi, and she was explaining the trees communicate with each other through mycelium, and that, like, one tree can feed, like, it's offspring tree, and, like, move nutrients towards it through the mycelium, and, like, move nutrients

towards it through the mycelium and actually like when the tree is growing it can actually push the tree farther away to get away from the it was blowing my mind and then it was like it's a tree like my my part of me that thought I was so smart and that I've got this brain was like no I thought I knew things and so every every time I think that I like okay I'm going to stop thinking I know more than nature then you explain something to me that throws my little bag of knowledge out the window it's fine yeah and yeah that you know things like that completely blow our minds because again we're just such a young species on this planet and you know all these other organisms have had millions of

years to evolve and so they have all these really cool and unique adaptations that uh yeah we normally just take for granted or just look over you know like it's just a treat you know yeah we like we're taught like be confident and it's like but you don't know anything like you know almost nothing. Even with like when you start to learn something, you just realize how complex like bugs are. And we start to get into this rhythm of like, I got this life thing figured out. I got my job. I got my money coming in each month. I got this house. I've got life figured out. And then you go into the forest and you're like, never mind. There's fungi. There's birds. There's bees. There's a whole ecosystem of things that all interact with each other and to try and understand

it. Like you, when you want to know something within the scientific realm, it's like you narrow in on this one little thing that's a unique fun fact about like this one thing. It's not like you're like an overall expert in like all of life. There's the, that's not a job. Yeah. And that's, I think that's what makes nature and natural history just so exciting. Right. Like there's all these awesome unique stories and adaptations that, you know, we know very little about and we're just starting to explore. Interesting. So when did you start working with birds? When did you start to make that shift over from the bugs to the birds. Yeah, so that was in 2019 when I got a pretty decent paid co-up job.

And I remember seeing on Instagram, like all these wildlife photos, which I've always admired and I was kind of discouraged not to try because, you know, oh, there's so many experts around here. Like, I know nothing about this subject. And how did you overcome that? Because that's the instinct that I feel like I had with this was like, I'm not an expert. Like, I don't know how to interview people. There's people out there who are better than this.

So how did you overcome that? For sure. And, you know, it was just kind of a leap of faith where, you know, I like, I want to, you know, I want to try this out. And so with some of the money I was making, just bought, like, lenses on, like, Craigslist or Marketplace and just started testing them out and taking photos, like bunnies, like invasive bunnies in my local park. And just, like, looking like a complete fool, just lying on the grass. There's probably, like, geese poop all over the place. But I remember, like, that particular shoot in, like, June of 2019, I was just so happy. That's good.

I was just so happy. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. It feels like, you know, I was looking through, I was looking at, like, a lion in the savannah or something. It was just, like, a bunny on, like, the grass in my park. But, yeah. So when did you start going out? So did you just start taking photos on your own? And then you moved into, like, a role with birds Canada.

How did you start getting more interested in birds? Yeah. So I started with a photography thing. And actually, you know, there's lots of birds around. And I just started taking photos of them and trying to identify them through, like, I naturalists or just looking back. Sorry, what's I naturalist? I Naturalist is a citizen science app where you can take photos of, like, plants, animals, bugs.

and you upload it to the app and it identifies it for you using AI and it's confirmed by other members of the community and saying, like, okay, this is correct, you know, what you photograph is a black cap chickadee. And that's also used for citizen science data, which is amazing. It's a great app, and I just threw like a couple of my pictures on there

and I started figuring out, oh, like this is a red-wing blackbird or this is a song sparrow. And so that's how I kind of found my love for birding again. Like, oh my gosh, I remember when I was younger And I was obsessed with, like, those field books from back home. And so I just started taking photos. And eventually, a position opened up at Burt's Canada where, you know, they needed communications and outreach person.

And I was like, oh, I did some of that at SFU and I'm taking photos now. So I think it'll be, like, a good fit. Amazing. Can you tell us what a citizen scientist is? Because I think that that is so inspiring for people who, like, we have this weird thing, again, where, like, if you go to university, you know, and if you don't go to university, you're treated like you don't know. But I think that that is such a terrible, terrible way to, like, teach people about how to live.

Like, if you're interested in cooking, you don't have to go to an Ivy League baking place or cooking place in order to make, like, delicious food. And so the same applies with science. The same applies with, I think that there's a scientific app for, like, identifying fungi. and it sounds like for birds and you can find these communities and start to be interested in something that maybe like my partner she attended school for high school and she didn't feel like she was like a natural sciences person because her teacher didn't make the topic accessible to her so she's like I don't like nature I don't like science and it was like that can't be true because when we're on these walks she's like what kind of grass do you think that is what kind of bird do you think that is what kind of and like you can tell she's interested but but this one teacher in high school made her feel like she was not intelligent on this topic. So she was like, this isn't for me, I guess, because my teacher said I'm not good at this. So I must not be good at this.

And so when people are able to find these apps that allow them to join a community and start humbly taking an interest in it, I think that's inspiring. So can you tell us a bit more about citizen scientists? Yeah, for sure. Citizen scientists are really, really important because as I mentioned, data in science is very critical into making really meaningful research. And the fact of the matter is that scientists can't be everywhere all the time collecting data. And so we rely on people who are, you know, go on walks every day or visit parks every day

to kind of record their observations and upload them to citizen science apps. And then we can use that for our research and data analysis. And so it's really critical for determining, you know, natural changes over time. where presence, absence of like a particular species in the region, that otherwise wouldn't be reported if a scientist, you know, didn't live in like a remote place, for example. So that's like, when we talk about like people being good stewards of the land, when we talk about people making a positive difference,

do you think that this is something we could start pitching to the general public? It's like, if you walk this trail every day, grab out your phone, when you're taking those photos, just upload them, share them with us, so we have a little bit more data. Maybe it doesn't change our understanding of how science is done, but you're contributing in a small way, just like when you make a small donation to the Salvation Army when you're picking up your food.

It's just a different way people can think about making a contribution. Yeah, for sure. And the way data works is that the more you have of it, the less significant errors in the data will be. So, for example, if you flip a coin twice, the chances of you getting, like, heads or tails, you know, will be significantly biased versus if you flip a coin like a thousand times, right? It would be more 50-50 versus flipping it only twice. And so, like, all those small changes will kind of disappear in the background if you have, like, really big and robust data set. And so having more data is really beneficial to all of the research that we're doing.

And then it'll help with things like conservation because there are various areas, Blacky Spit included, that's been working to, for people who don't know Blacky Spit is in Surrey. And one of the challenges I think they were trying to address is like people were walking so much all over the park that they were just killing everything by like stomping their feet all over it. And then that was having a negative impact on the biodiversity because life wasn't able to grow normally because you put down your bed. and you put down your towel, and then all of a sudden, like, all this life can't thrive there. I could be incorrect. Could you tell us about Blacky Spitt and what was kind of going on there? No, that's definitely correct. It's very high-use area, like lots of people walk around the trails and like to sit around beaches,

even though there are some signs that say, you know, like some birds are nesting here. Please don't, you know, wander off trail. But unfortunately, yeah, that's what's happening over at that site. and like lots of other sites as well across the lower mainland but if people could be a little bit more respectful to the environment of course and just kind of let's all work to

preserve the habitat they'll make a big difference yeah I just think that it's cool because we do have all these like I know Save On Foods just switched over all their plastic bags to paper bags we're doing a lot in regards to changing things but I think that can bug people

sometimes like now you have to carry your bag out in a different way And so, like, those changes, people kind of go, and so when we can have something that's, like, positive where it's, like, your photos can be used for good. It can be more inspirational, and we can start to address some of that. And, like, I know that people are interested in doing good in the community. And I know that with Chilliwack, particularly, there's, like, picking up garbage groups.

And I think that that's so important, like, it's inspiring, but it's so important that we have this mindset of, like, nobody else is going to clean it up. It's us. It's you or nobody, and then you've seen the footage of, like, birds getting, like, stuff wrapped around their neck. And, like, I think there was, like, a turtle with, like, a straw, like, in its throat, like, terrible things if you don't do it. And so it's worthwhile to pick up the garbage, but also take photos. And so many people love taking photos that it would be cool to see, like, signs put up of, like, consider uploading your photo of the birds to this.

The only challenge, I guess, that you could run into is people going off trail to try and go and get those photos. Yeah, and that's kind of an issue as well in bird photography because there's some really productive sites across the Fraser River Delta where lots of birds kind of migrate from the Arctic. They come down to our coast because it's mild and nothing really freezes over. and so it's a great spot for them to like rest and forage for the winter. And unfortunately, there are some photographers who are just really keen on getting those photos. And they just kind of like wander off trail. And sometimes it's a group of them like walking around, which is really not the best scenario for the wildlife that come down here to rest. Can you tell us about bird migration just generally?

I have very little understanding. something about flying south for the winter, flying north for the winter, I don't remember. I remember very vaguely, if you can explain how birds migrate. Yeah, so here in the north, here in Canada at least, we have a lot of species from Central and South America that migrate up to our province when it gets warmer because there's plentiful insects that kind of start emerging during the warmer months. and there's like lots of nesting opportunities around here and then once it gets cold here typically in like the fall let's start heading back down to like central and south America because that's where more food is like it's warmer they can survive there

how far is that flight it depends on the species but the Arctic turn for example flies from the Arctic to Antarctic like twice a year I believe the yes the whole planet basically yes from like north to south they fly that

how do they have enough food that's a that's a trip that's a great question because there's lots of species that kind of stop in particular spots or areas where they have to refuel and so for example in the Fraser River Delta Brunswick Point is a very important site

for western sandpipers because there's a vast mudflat there where biofilm grows and that's like their primary source of really high long chain fatty acids that kind of fubled their migration up to Alaska. And so this is one of those few spots where they're able to like really bulk up and have enough energy to like move to the Arctic. And so it's important to preserve habitat. tats like that, because if you take that away,

they're not going to have enough energy to breed in the Arctic and to make that long-distance migration. That's near Tuosan, right? Yes. I think I just read an article by Tuosan First Nation that they have the first right of refusal to buy back that land there. That is super interesting. Brunswick Sound, you said, right?

Brunswick Point. Oh, yes. And the surrounding water around it, I think that they're interested in reclaiming. that is really interesting and so what do they have to eat you said fatty acids biofilm yeah

the biofilm itself have fatty acids in them so that's what's a biofilm biofilm are like little diatoms which are little organisms that produce energy from through photosynthesis and what makes this site

so special is that when during the springtime when fresh water runs down to the mouth of the phaser at Brunswick Point, it stresses out the biofilm, and they start producing long chain fatty acids, which is then consumed by the western sandpipers. And, you know, this is one of the few only sites where that actually happens. So it's really critical for them. Oh, my gosh. So that's like, that's how this is delicate, because if they don't have that, then they can't go to

Alaska, you said. Yes, Copper River in Alaska, I believe. Yeah. They have like a specific spot. Yes, quite a waste up there. Oh my gosh. So, like, why do they go up there from, like, why do birds migrate? Like, why do they move so much? Why don't they, like, people are like, why don't they just hang out here? It's all good. Yeah, so birds migrate for typically resources and nesting opportunities.

And the way migration has evolved was through climatic changes in Earth's history. So for a lot of the songbirds, for example, when the glaciers started retreating, the birds started, you know, moving along with the glaciers and like staying in like the habitats that suddenly become open. And so through, you know, thousands and thousands of years, they started to like make those migrations and it just becomes part of their life history. Wow. Okay. So with birds, they're flying all around. I'm interested to understand what makes them continue to travel these distances, but how do they know? How do they know where to go? Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot of kind of theories around that, but one of the more popular ones is that they're using the Earth's magnetic field to kind of determine which direction they're going.

And so something instilled in, I believe, their brains that they're using that kind of, you know, guide them towards a specific place. That is really interesting because, like, you can, people who are woo-woo, that, like, that speaks to the woo-woo people who are like, there's, like, an energy around us that's, like, impacting us. Because then the question is, like, are we able to tap into this field? Yeah. It's a great question that I have not explored. It's just like, because like I believe that. And like my understanding is that like a lot of different creatures operate that way. But it's so interesting to think of like like traveling all around the world and being able to follow something.

Because that's what fish do in the water, right? They're they're traveling long distances. Like how does a salmon know to swim back up river, even though it's going to die like on that last train? rip up. It's going to die, but it's still trying to make the run, like what ingrains that into them to just continue this cycle and to know where to go? Do birds know each other? Because we hear, is it crows that are like super smart and people like to think of as really smart? Because they remember people's faces. How do birds know each other? Again, it depends on like the group or species. Some birds are more solitary than others. Some birds, they have

partners that they made for life with. Some have, you know, multiple partners throughout a breeding season, for example. But you mentioned like crows and like that group of birds, like crows, jays, which we call like the Corbid group, like magpies are quite intelligent birds. And they do recognize people's faces and each other and they're quite vocal and they're social as well. Interesting. Magpies. Do we have those here? Yes, in the Okanagan, we've got Blackbilled magpies. Very beautiful birds.

it got long, very, yeah, gorgeous tail. Interesting. And so what made you interested in birds? What do you think gives you this little bit of a bias towards bugs and birds, or birds specifically? Yeah, I think it has to do with a couple of reasons. So the first one is just that they're so, they're everywhere and they're ubiquitous. And it's easy, very easy to get into, like, birding and observe birds.

And, yeah, like any green. space that you go there's probably going to be some sort of bird around there. The second one is that they're just so diverse, like from owls to like albatrosses. They've all have got their unique adaptations. And the third one I would say is their incredible life history and adaptations. You know, I learned recently that there are species of albatross that don't get their like full adult breeding plumage until they're 18. so they're like humans. Really? How long do they live for?

Great question. The oldest known living bird is actually a Lason Albatross. She is 70 years old and her name is Wisdom. What? What? 70 year old bird. Yes, she's 70 years old and she's forgetting to figure off top of my head, but she's had a number of chicks already. But albatrosses are such an in.

interesting group of like seabirds you know once they leave um their nesting island like some of them don't see land for like three years they're just like wandering the ocean um and so we don't even know if this is the oldest we're just because this one is the oldest we're like yes that's the oldest one we know of at least yeah the one that's tagged yeah oh my god okay so is there different types of birds like generally, like the genres of birds? Yes, there's definitely different types. You know, we've got like eagles or raptors. We've got like owls, we've got sea birds.

You've got like wading birds. Okay, we've got to slow down. Yes. So let's start with raptors because these are the ones that people just love an eagle or seeing a hawk. Like it's something special to us to see that. You said the raptors. Can you tell us more? Yeah, so raptors are what we call birds of prey.

And they're typically, they've got like a large, like heavy-built feature to them. So like a hooked bill and then like really strong, powerful legs with talents to like kind of grab other birds and other prey. And yeah, they're top of the food chain and lots of other birds are typically scared when they see a raptor around. You see lots of small birds like mobbing.

It's a behavior that we call where like other birds, smaller birds kind of fly up to a raptor and like stop picking at it or like chasing it away from its territory. It's very interesting to watch And they're very brave little birds Oh my gosh So like that they want to scare away the raptor And so their way to kind of beat them

Is on at scale Like having a bunch of them all attack at once Just very minor And just yeah Just annoy the heck out of the raptor If I was a bird I wouldn't want to be a raptor Because I would constantly get mobbed Is that, it's common then

Yes it's quite common Um, owls, uh, especially, um, they like to hide a lot and be discreet because, uh, once, you know, birds find them, like, uh, crows, for example, they will not stop harassing the owl. They'll just keep clawing at it and until like flies somewhere else or goes somewhere else. And, uh, yeah, that's why owls. Do owls usually attack crows, though? Not really. Um, like, what causes the moth? Like, yeah, they just, they just know it's a raptor and, um, owls can take like you know smaller smaller birds for example if a crow had young then it would be more viable prey but a lot of birds just know that raptors are just no good and they prey on other birds and they don't want them around

and so constantly harassing them yeah because you can't really do that with like a grizzly bear like a small mouse is not going to go like we'll attack the grizzly bear all at once it's sort of unique yeah it's very cool and it's very interesting to see interesting how strong I think this is usually talked about in books, but how strong are the Raptor kind of family?

Like, their talons can pick up like a salmon moving in a river pretty quick. Yeah. Back home, we have the Philippine Eagle, which will snatch a monkey out of a tree. And I know in South America they have heartbeat eagles that snatch slots out of trees. And so it's even more crazy to be. Just imagine you're going about your day

and you're getting, you know, pulled away from it. especially at the pace of sloth moves. Like, by the time it realizes it's been moved out of a tree, it's like in the air. Like, it's not like a fast. Yeah, I think I watched like a 72 animal's most dangerous birds or something on Netflix. And that was one of them because they'd like grab the sloth out of the tree. And then sometimes they wouldn't be able to hold on to it. And so they'd like let it go.

Some species of birds like Osprey, they have difficulty. but like releasing their, like, opening their talents again. So some young Osprey, like, unfortunately die because sometimes they grab a fish that's too big or too heavy from them and then they just kind of can't lift it and drown in the water. Oh my gosh. Oh, no.

So what is the differences between, like, a hawk and an eagle from your perspective? Yeah, so eagles are typically larger. And then hawks are typically, typically a little bit smaller, and they go for other variety of prey. Interesting. Because hawks are smaller, right? Like a little bit. They're like more aerodynamic.

Yes, a little bit, yes. Yeah, hawks are, yeah, they definitely go for, like, smaller songbirds versus eagles. Or we're going to go for, like, a bit larger prey. For example, like, bald eagles will grab salmon, and then Cooper's hawk will grab, like, a chickadee or something like that. Oh, this is really sad. So, eagles also seem to like, like, we just went to the great blue heron reserve a while back, and there were a ton of eagles, like young ones, middle-aged ones, and like fully white-headed eagles. Are they more communal than hawks? Because I never see hawks, like, all hanging out together.

Yeah, for sure. The bald eagles do tend to hang out in groups, and the hawks, they typically only hang around in groups when they're, you know, a made-a-paired. or they, it's like a family itself. Yeah, bald eagles are interesting because they don't get like their full white head until they're about seven years old. And if you're a bald eagle with like, you know, a full white head, you typically have rights over the bets like fishing spot or perching spot. So you'll see them like kind of chase like the younger eagles away.

And, you know, if they find an eagle like a younger eagle on a good perch, or just fly into it and just like pushing moving like this is my spot now oh my gosh that sort of reminds me of when sunny mcclesy was describing like indigenous places to fish that we have like our spot it just it lines up and it's just kind of beautiful the the symmetry between nature and and indigenous people and like what they worked towards that's great yeah so moving from raptors to which was the next genre um like songwords uh for example um so why do they sing that's a great question They sing because they're claiming territory and they're trying to attract their mates. And, you know, they all have very specific songs to their species.

And, yeah, it's just a great time, especially during spring. You know, you hear all these different songs. And it's a great way, actually, to learn your bird ID because you can tell what kind of bird it is just from like the song or the call that it makes. Wow. I've heard, I watched a nature documentary where they were saying that the, like the song they sing is actually passed on from family to family that like and they'll modify it to make it their own but it's often like a family song like their parent teaches them this is our song they learn it and then they sort of semi adapted to their their own style

yeah it's yeah some species are definitely you know they they learn um they don't know their songs innately and it has to be taught from like their parents they have to hear their parents like sing this all that's incredible you think of like the recipes that you want to be passed on and the things you want to learn from your family like some generations seem less interested in learning about their family lineage and then the next generation seems to be really interested in it i think there's like there and i'm not the expert on this but i think like when families move here it's like the first generation typically wants their children to like sort of like embrace the new culture and then their children seem to

to be really interested in like what their origins are beyond this culture and there's like that connection and I think that I don't have like a lot of family recipes or like traditions that we do we've done every year for 50 years and we've always done this thing and I think that having those things passed on like nature can teach us things about like how to connect more deeply how to have things because like we like traditions we like things that we do each year and I think sometimes you forget the why like the thing I don't like is is New Year's resolutions. Because for so many people, it's like, it's silly things.

It's like, oh, I'm going to, like, go on my phone less. And it's like, sure. But the point of it is for, like, you to think about how you could be a better person next year. How you could be a better spouse, a better family member, how you can, like, make a better difference in your community, like, bigger things than, like, I'm going to exercise more. Like, that's something you could think about all your, like, there's no requirement that you only think about that once. It's like, let's think bigger and, like, let's think more impactful.

And so the idea that you pass these things on in songbirds is just, it's a reminder of us to hopefully do the same. Yeah, for sure. And, yeah, always constantly learning from nature, right? Even when I photograph things or go birding and just observing and seeing what they do. And there's definitely, like, a lot of parallels that I start to make to my personal life as well. That's good. so like for crows in comparison to songbirds we don't like the sound of crows that much so is that something is there a reason that we find their songs appealing because there could be a world where we hear songbirds and it is like children screaming or it's like it could be something worse it's not though it's appealing to our ears and when you hear like chickadees or something it's like it's a nice little melody and then you're like oh that's cool so like do you is there any

logic as to why songbirds seem to appeal to us as people? That's a great question. And I'm not entirely sure you have a good answer for that. I think it's just, I don't know, for some reason, it just sounds so good to us. It's like a little bit of like a sweeter tune, right, versus like a call, like a crow. Yeah, it's just, it's, maybe it's like we adapted for them because we used to, like now it seems like such a weird question, but like we used to live with them. We used to live in the forest around them but it's interesting

because there's an indigenous story that the crow lost, it's the beauty and its voice that it was taken away from it because do ravens have good voices? They are able to imitate a lot of different vocalizations

but yeah they typically sound similar to crows as well yeah. Okay because I do believe that it's the crow that lost its it had its voice taken away it was it was causing in the story it was causing like shenanigans and then the the creator took away its ability to like sing beautiful songs and so that's why so many people hate crows um and so like i'm just interested to try and understand what would have appealed because when you're out in nature it's like none of those sounds are annoying like the

sound of the river like you're not like turn that off like i'm trying to sleep it's like it's also soothing and I really am starting to believe more and more we're just not built for where we are now like a silent room where you can have no noise like we're just not designed for the um I listen to Brett and Heather Weinstein who are huge into evolutionary biology I have their book right behind me a hunter gatherers guide to the 21st century where they talk about like the tools that nature teaches us but also the pitfalls because like you could kind of view the world as like one or the other we should just do exactly what nature does or we should not and then you think of like some uh the bonobos are like nefariously like non-committal so

like don't copy that and so like there's things we can learn from them but then there's things to go like okay but no and we're humans so we can make our own decisions and so that book is what it's good for but i just i feel like we need to be more connected with nature because it is appealing to us it you can imitate whale songs and stuff but like the point is you're supposed to be out there yeah for sure And, yeah, again, there's just so many things to learn from nature, right? And there's so many things to take away from it. Yeah. So why are they so small?

Why are the singing bird family usually so teeny tiny? Yeah, so evolutionary, they're just kind of built to be that way because they feed mainly on insects. And you can't really have a large body that just feeds mainly on, like, small insects, and you can't really sustain it. but yeah songbirds are the most diverse group of birds that we have and it's interesting there's actually a particular group of birds which are technically in this in like the songbird family called shrikes but they behave like raptors and so they have a hooked bill as well

and they prey on other smaller birds about like the same size as they are But the problem is that their legs are not as strong and as robust as raptors. They're not adapted for that. And so the way that they pin their prey is by taking the prey and then impaling it on like a thorny branch or a bush or like barred wire. And because of this, it got the name as the butcher bird. And so you can like walk into a scene or like a thorny bush and you see like little insects and birds and like lizards. like impaled on there and you know that it's you know the work of a shrike oh my gosh that is such a funny name for something that does that because what was that um um up was the movie i forget

what the the beast was called in that movie but like it's yeah it was like a shrike or something so that's funny that it's called that and like they impale others like they impale all their yeah they're prey um yeah because their legs aren't strong enough to like hold on to the prey while they tear it apart, right? So they just use whatever it's in the environment. What is it like to learn this? Like, what is it like to just be living your life and then learn these facts and just be like, what?

It's so cool. And I think that's just the, that's part of the appeal that makes me, you know, still be, you know, constantly wanting to be in nature and doing something for nature's because, you know, cool things like this like pop up every now and then. And there's like some, there's always some odd animal.

that's doing like something different from like what it's supposed to be. It's also interesting because it's like we want our nature to be like PG. Like we want it to be like they're all just flying around at peace with each other. And then when you start hearing like, oh, they like impale things and like like raptors eat other birds, it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I had a deal. I was going to learn about biology here today. But I did not agree to find out that like it's far more complex and things are far more aggressive. Was that a struggle for you at all?

Or was it easier to kind of come to terms with it? This is an ecosystem. It's complicated. Yeah, definitely. I kind of just kind of accepted it as like, okay, this is just how life works, right? Like evolution cares about survival, not ethics. And so the adaptations that came about today is just because for the survival of like a particular species. Right.

For bird's eyes, like we hear about how crazy, like hawks can see when they're way up in the high. like are all birds like that like when I think of like those like chickadees and stuff they're able to like maneuver through like thorns and bushes and stuff and like do aerodynamic things to get through things is this like all birds have pretty good eyesight I would like to say yes but I know there's going to be some exception out there for sure that I don't know about um but yeah typically birds have have pretty good eyesight like that's something that they rely on pretty heavily um it's not like insects for example which rely more on their antennae and, like, pheromones and sensing chemicals in the environment. Right, and I keep hearing birds, bones are hollow. Is this the case? Is this predominantly the case?

Yes, that is correct. It's because, like, their bodies are all evolved to, for flight, right, to sustain flight. And so having hollow bones just means you'll be lighter and you'll be able to fly farther. And lots of birds, actually, if you start observing them, They, for raptors, for example, they typically, like, poop while they perch before they fly away, because, you know, less weight to carry. Right, but crows like to, and seagulls seem to go to the bathroom mid-flight.

So is there, like, differences in the... Yeah, I'm not sure what's going on there. Because that's the big fear is people, like, see a bunch of birds flying away and they're, like, checking their shoulders to... Yeah, for sure. ...in comparison to perhaps eagles, which sounds like they do it perched. Yeah, yeah. There's definitely some nuances between, like, the species and, like, when they decide to go. Interesting. And so what's the next genre? We could talk about shorebirds, which are really cool. We have a lot of shorebirds that migrate and the Fraser estuary because it is, again, we have really mild winters.

And so, you know, the mudflats are still open and exposed and the beaches are still not frozen. they can continue like foraging along there. They typically have the longer legs to kind of keep them away from the water and they like to, well, the smaller shorebirds at least, like to fly around in flocks for safety. Is this, can you give us an example? Is this like a seagull? So shorebirds would be something like Dunlin or sandalings. So a seagull would be more of like, it's closer to like a seabird than a shorebird.

So shorebirds are like little round birds with like long bills and like longer, longer legs. Interesting. Please continue about the short words. No, I was just going to say with Dunlin, which we have hundreds of thousands that, you know, over winter on our coast. They have very interesting flight maneuvers. They're called murmurations where I'm not sure if you've seen those films where it looks like they're flying. They're kind of like making like different formations. It looks like a school of fish that are like swimming around together.

And Dunlin do this to kind of avoid predators because lots of raptors like peregrine falcons like to hunt Dunlan. That's what fish do it for too as well, right? Yes, exactly. And so there, you know, it's beautiful to watch like these Dunlin murmurations because they're, you know, just flying over like mudflats and beaches and you see like a falcon following them around. That's a really cool adaptation to like observe

and, yeah, to document. Yeah, we were watching Canada geese do murmuration. Is that what it's called? Yes. I don't know if it was murmuration, but they were practicing flying. And they were just doing it locally in the same spot. And they were taking off, doing like a huge flight in a circle, going one direction, one direction, then landing, then taking off again and doing the same thing.

And it was like over 150 birds, all doing it together. And it was just so, I think I have a recording of it because it was so, wild to like they were having like a meeting in that like some birds were like I don't know how to do it like a honk and like they were like talking to each other and it's like they were all agreeing like we're going to take off now and it was like they're like having a meeting over here and like they don't care what like I'm watching them do this and it was just so it's so humbling to think that like they're communicating with each other and there's a part of us that doesn't want that to be true that like wants that they're birds they don't talk yeah

Yeah, again, you know, as people sometimes we like to think of very highly of ourselves and not consider other intelligence of other organisms and like in their own way, shape, or form, right? And so, yeah, it's always very interesting to observe and watch these behaviors. Yeah, so far, I think we have two artistic things. We've got murmurations, which is a really fun word to say. And then we also have singing songbirds that sing. What's the next genre of birds? Um, there are lots of other ones.

Sorry, they're like the next genre, the next, you said, uh, not shorebirds. Like seabirds? Yeah. Yeah, seabirds are a very special group of birds. They, um, it's a group that I wish I had more time to kind of observe and watch. But because of the nature that they're typically very far away from the shore. We don't really see much of them. So this includes, you know, albatrosses, for example.

which have really long, yeah, their life history is basically based in just the ocean. And it's a really unique group of birds because they rely heavily on the ocean. And it's a great way to kind of have them as ecosystem indicators. Because if they start declining, that means there's something wrong with like the prey that they're feeding on or like the environment that they're living in. A lot of seabirds nest in really remote islands. And unfortunately, a lot of remote islands are threatened by introduced animals like rats or snakes that typically weren't there. But, you know, humans intentionally or unintentionally bring them to the islands.

And that causes a lot of, like, seabird decline, also bycatch from fisheries. Albatrosses in particular, they're attracted to, like, long, like. fisheries where there's bait on a hook and once they you know chomp down on the fish they're not able to like let go and you know unfortunately they drown because of that um so seabirds are very vulnerable group of birds and it's unfortunate that we don't you know have more of a connection to them because we are land-based for the most part yeah that is another thing that somebody commented on um i forget who it was but they just made the point of like birds are really good at adapting so much so that you don't even realize that you're not supposed to have

seagulls in the middle of a city. Like that is how good seagulls are at adapting is that like you're just like, oh, or what are the other one, pigeons that they've adapted so much that they're just like you, like, I've never even been to New York, but New York and pigeon synonymous with each other. They're just like, you tie them together, even though that's not how it was. That's not how it's been. They adapted and we go, cool, great. Birds are adapting, but then there are others that are having trouble adapting or that don't, haven't needed to adapt to us yet.

And it sounds like the Albatross is one of them. They've managed to be out in the ocean. We don't interact with it. It doesn't. But now we're starting to have like the garbage patches in the ocean, which are like, I think one of, I think the Pacific garbage patch is like the size of Texas or something like that, which is crazy big. It's insane, yeah. And so this is starting to have effects because this is where. they've been peacefully floating on the water and then we've got so much garbage in those

patches that it's like incomprehensible and there's that person boy on slot who is really interested in cleaning up the ocean and he's got these machines that are going to go over and they're not going to go so deep as to pick up fish but they're going to try and catch that that surface level stuff but what he realized was that he needs to focus more on the communities that don't have proper like sewage and plumbing and garbage disposal and they have rivers and they all just throw the garbage and stuff and like these are not developed in the way that we're used to with our garbage delivery pickup and stuff and so they they bathe in the water but they also put their garbage in there and then that garbage leaks into the and that's

what causes a lot of the garbage patches is these so he realized putting something up there that will pick up the garbage from the river before it gets into the ocean will be one of the longer, more sustainable solutions. He's still going to work on the ocean for my understanding, but the problem is to get it where it's coming from. For sure. And yeah, it's important to be careful about a lot of these

clean-up efforts that say we're just going to sift everything out of the water, right? Because there's a lot of microorganisms that live on the surface of the water. and they contribute like really greatly to like the ecosystem in the ocean and so you know just going out with like a big scoop in the ocean you're going to take out a lot of things as well not just the garbage yeah that that's so true and we have to be careful any time that we're trying to do something good because there's always like a risk that we're going to do something like there's no zero consequences we'll do something and they'll have no effect at all on anything yeah again you know nature is so complex that

you can't just go in there with like a big hammer and try to solve the issue that way. You have to like very carefully look at the situation and talk to researchers who are actually studying these ecosystems and see like what is actually viable. Yeah. Where do like herons fit into this? Because I look at a heron and I go, that's a pterodactyl. That's very clearly like a modern day teradactyl. I would agree.

Herons would fit in like more of like the waiting birds category. What is a wait? So wading birds are birds that kind of wait around the water and they catch fish and like salamanders or other amphibians or frogs to feed on. So typically you'll see wading birds around like marshes or wetlands. So what do heron eat? Did you just say they eat frogs? Yes. So the great blue herons are actually very interesting.

They eat fish, amphibians and I've seen them like cat eat earthworms and voles. as well, which are kind of rodent. Vols? Yes. So you... V-O-L. V-O-L-E-S, Voles. What?

Yeah. And those are here in V-C. Yes. Voles. Yes. You will see them, and like rodents. I've seen, like, herons, like, you know, hang around farmers fields, and you see them, like, snatch a rodent or a vole out from, like, a ditch or something.

I'm like, oh, okay. They eat those, too. Are they, like, more community, or? Because we have like the great blue heron reserve, but is it like, but I also see them just chilling by themselves super still. Yeah, so typically they are more solitary, but there comes to time, during springtime where they do kind of become more social and gregarious because they're finding mates and they're building nests and, you know, they have rookeries and things like that, which is like a heron kind of nesting site. Rookery? Yeah. How do you, rookery?

It's like a R-O-O-K-E-R-Y, Rookery, yeah. There's so many words I don't know, rookery, okay. Do, this is just a weird, curious question. Do eagles hawk, like, do raptors mess with herons? Do they not talk to each other, they're distant? Typically, if a heron is, like, a smaller chick, then a raptor is more tempted to take it. But if, you know, it's a full-size adult, it's just way too dangerous. Like, herons are like a beak, like, super large, and nobody wants to mess with that.

Interesting. Oh that's crazy So what are some of your favorite birds That stand out to you that you're just like This is crazy this is crazy ass Yeah Recently It's been the albatrosses

Specifically, you know For their life history And the fact that They just live completely different lives from us Like can't imagine living out at sea for three years So would you, would you like if I like had like a golden card And you could go study them Would that be something like you jump at?

100%. I'm just photographing and documenting them would be amazing as well. Yeah, Albatrosses. I haven't seen one ever, so that's like my next. Next on my list. But locally, my favorite birds have to be like the American Dipper. What is that? It is a small songbird about like the size of your fist.

And typically you'll see them like bopping up and down stones on a creek. And it's a little weird because, you know, they're a songbird, but they're not like on a tree or a bush or something. And you might not think much of them because they have really drab colors of like a dark grayish head and like a navy, dark navy blue body. But what makes this bird so interesting is that they literally dive into fast flowing creeks and rivers and they will catch insects or salmon eggs under the water. So things like catas flies or stone flies, they'll fish right out from like the bottom of the creek. And then you'll see them pop right back out onto a stone. And then... Sorry, cactus flies?

Catus flies. What are these? These are aquatic insects that... They kind of look like mealworms. But if you had the back, the lower half of the mealworm, like... I don't know what a mealworm is. Oh, a mealworm. It's like those like long, like beetle larvae that look like stuff that you see at the pet store.

You know, they feed it like other things. But yeah, they look like that except like the lower half of their body is covered in like stones or sticks or whatever stuff that they find in the water. That's kind of like their shell. They make their own shell essentially because they live most of their lives in creeks and waters. I didn't know that, am I supposed to know that there are bugs that live in the water? Yeah, I know, it's crazy, right? They're perfectly adapted to the water. And the way that they create those, like, little casings is through,

they produce, like, a silk or a super glue, essentially, that is waterproof, which is how, you know, all the little stones stick to their bodies. And they use that as their shell, like, their protection. Yeah, this just reminds me. learning that our nose is a dehumidifier and so you're supposed to breathe through your nose because it dehumidifies the air and it was like I like my body didn't come with like a user's manual like these little bugs know what to do and it's like I didn't know that my nose was capable of this and like there are a lot of people who don't breathe through their nose and have huge

deleterious effects in their life because they don't get good sleeps because you actually get more oxygen if you breathe through your nose than if you breathe through your mouth it's like 20% more and for athletes it's actually one of the biggest improvements if they want to improve their whatever they're competing at is to breathe through their nose and focus on them more yeah yeah and so like when you realize it's just yeah my mind is being blown today um mosquitoes I'd love to see no mosquitoes but I have a sneaking suspicion but that they seem to probably contribute something. They contribute a lot.

Unfortunately. So the mosquitoes that kind of bother us are only a handful of species that actually need blood to... Can we get rid of those? Yes.

And no. So there's a huge benefit, right, to getting rid of mosquitoes and they're doing it most of these days through genetic control. And so they capture males, male mosquitoes. Also, the only mosquitoes that bite you are females because they're the ones who need the protein in your blood to create their eggs and lay their eggs.

And so that's why they need to bite people and they need blood. But the males, completely harmless, they just feed on nectar and pollinate flowers and things like that. Oh, they do good. They do good, yeah, exactly. But the way they're like managing mosquitoes around developing countries, especially, you know, if you have dengue or malaria, which is very dangerous, right? So what they're doing is they're taking male mosquitoes. They're altering their genes to make them sterile.

And then they're releasing those male mosquitoes out into a specific area. And when those male mosquitoes make with the female, she produces eggs that are sterile. So the population like ends there and it significantly drops the, um, uh, the mosquito population, which is a much better alternative than, you know, walking around in spring everywhere, pesticides, right? That's what we do now, right? Like, we go, like, we, uh, and the, there's something to do with, like, the river rising and lowering so much that seems to, like, cause, like a spurt in summer that causes them

to be, like, worse or something like that. Yeah. But right now, I think we just spray everything to try and, like, bring down there. Am I, is that correct? Yeah, a lot of, yeah, still pesticide use. But yeah, it's interesting to see where research is taking us, right? Like, it's a lot more safer for people. And so it's a lot more effective as well if you're stopping generations of like mosquito from coming out. Yeah, because we don't have malaria here, right, with our mosquitoes. Like our mosquitoes are pretty, they're annoying, but they're not harmful. Yeah, they don't carry the malaria virus. Yeah. Interesting. And

So what other birds interest to you? There is a relative to the Great Blue Heron. It's called the American Bittern. And that bird is super interesting. B-I-T-E-R-N? B-I-T-E-R-N? Yes, B-I-T-E-R-N. Yes, B-IrN, American Bidern.

It's super cryptic. It likes to hide around marshes and wetlands. And I found one at my local marsh last year after searching for about 24 hours for it. Like 24 hours? Not straight, but like in total, 24 hours of searching and waiting around the marsh for this bittern. They, I think the real special thing that comes from them is their song. It sounds like a dripping faucet. And I can play that for you if you like.

We have to play that. What? It plays a sound that sounds like a dripping waterfosset. That's so interesting. You wouldn't think that they. noise comes from a bird, but it does. Yeah, I blew my mind when I heard it. I am just going to get used to having my mind blown.

I'm just going to try and lean into it. I just love that so much. I just, like, as I told you, my grandmother was really interested in birds, and she really enjoyed birding, and I miss her a lot, and I want to take her interest seriously, and she believed she was a practicing Catholic, so I want to recognize her religion and understand it better. But she was also, she'd go on, like she'd travel the world to go see birds.

So it's a pleasure to sit down. Please go ahead and play the sound. No, she sounds wonderful. But I will play the song for you. That is so crazy. What are those background birds? Um, a lot of like, uh, um, yeah, so that is the song of the American bird. Oh my gosh, it almost sounds like, uh, like pulling a bow and arrow back or something in

releasing it like it's got like uh that's really that's really interesting do you do we know why um it's a low frequency call so it travels over like the marsh for longer distance versus like a high pitch one um but yeah hearing that like last year over my local marsh they typically sing during like dusk and dawn so just watching like the sunset and hearing that's just so beautiful oh my gosh so they're like trying to communicate with something far away yeah so typically they sing to declare their territory and to attract mates as well and saying like, hey, I'm here in this

marsh of viable mates. So like we like I don't know if everybody knows this but I think it's interesting. FM radio is more it's more like that so that people can have higher

quality sound but it can't travel as far of distances whereas with AM it's more like the bitter which is like lower so you can you can have like talk shows but you can't have music playing because the waveform is such that that doesn't work that's what you're saying the bitter knows how to travel like do things long distance yeah and it doesn't have short where like a chickity is doing like yeah like sharp calls right um yeah but because they're so solitary most

of the time um they have to find each other somehow and so they use that song to communicate and, yeah, attract other birds, other bitterns. What? Like, it's just, it's so crazy that, like, these birds know things that I think are interesting about, like, AM FM radio. Like, they know, like, they're living as a thing. Yeah, they figured it out. Yeah. And I figured it out.

But it's just, it's very humbling to realize that there's parallels. There's different ways of, you. utilizing these tools. And I think that, like, what we can also take away from, like, the life of, like, a bittern versus, like, a chickity is, like, sometimes you need to take time and reflect, figure out where you're at, calm down, and make sure that you're happy in your life, figure out how you're going to move forward, like, just, just breathe and just meditate. And it sounds like that might be something you get out of being out with wildlife and, like, watching is, like, you're reminded that you're just, you're just one part of this great complex world. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that's what makes wildlife photography and nature photography to me so rewarding and humbling is that for the Dipper, for example, it's just a small bird, but it's so brave. It's like diving right into the water and doing its thing, right? And learning things about the bitter and how they've adapted to, you know, this sort of environment. It's very humbling to learn more and more about the birds and the wildlife and seeing them,

observing them in their natural habitat and realizing that, yeah, I'm just a small part in this world. And it's a huge privilege to me personally to be able to watch and document these scenarios and beautiful scenes. Because, you know, as a child, like I never did. And suddenly, you know, I'm listening to like bitter and sing as a son. suns like it's it's magical to me yeah would you say that this is like because we have all these different forms like people go to yoga people are trying to meditate in all these different ways would you say that there's like a meditative effect of what you're doing when you're so focused on something other than yourself like you're focused on finding a bird like you said

you worked for 24 hours to find that bird can you like what was that process like because we're used to instant gratification that's what we're accustomed to is If I want to hear a bidder and I type it into YouTube, I get it instantly. But there's like, you're missing something of that experience. You committed time to finding that. Can you just tell us about that journey of finding that one bird? Yeah. Yeah, the American Bittern really schooled me like the process of nature and wildlife photography

because what makes it so difficult is that you have no, little to no control over your subject and the scene. And so to create an image that you have in your head or an image that you think will, will be impactful, a lot of things have to line up and come together, right? Yeah, and that Baron just taught me, you know, impatient, the importance of being patient and being persistent and being respectful and just doing your research and learning more about your birds and the habitat and the environment before you can actually find this thing. But yeah, even though it's most of the time I come away with nothing when I try to find a specific species, specific bird or look for a specific image. I don't typically achieve it, but when the

stars do align, oh my gosh, it's so perfect. So how did that 24 hours play out for you? Was that like over three days, weeks? What was the process to find this bird? I think that was over two or three weeks, and it involved like walking around my marsh and scanning like all the cat tails and the reeds very carefully every single time. And then there's different. marshes around this location. And so I would like spend one night, one evening at a particular marsh and then I don't hear anything. And so I have to like try another spot, another time. And yeah, sometimes you just decide not to sing. You just have to come back and try again. So you saw it, but you didn't sing? Or like that's something that arises, I guess.

Actually, that's something that could arise. But the way that I found it was that it actually started singing. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's a bitter. And so I just followed the sound, and eventually I found him, like, hiding among the reeds. And he was in a position where it was, like, perfect for, like, a backlit photo. And so I just took that to my advantage of position myself or, you know, it was just glowing behind him, like, the marsh and the line. It was beautiful. That's crazy to think about how much, like, things are not. Because first, you have to find the bird, which sounds like it's a task.

Good luck, yeah. Yeah. then you have to get like an angle on the bird. Then you need the light to be effective to take photo of such bird. That is all like balancing on a tightrope, it sounds like. It is. And yeah, but you know, the beautiful thing about it is that the birds are wild and they can do whatever they want. They can carry out with their lives.

And I'm just there to kind of document like that little sliver in their life. you know um it's very humbling it it's really a big privilege to me to be able to do that um but yeah it takes a lot of like persistence and patience and actually really knowing and loving your subject to to be able to get to that point that's amazing do you listen to music do you like do anything else or do you just like let the environment and like how do you approach usually like going out on a day to take photos yeah um i typically research into like a particular species that I want to photograph and then I look into the potential locations and habitats they could be in and then when I'm visiting those locations I'm also

birding and like seeing what else is around like looking at them maybe there's like mammal tracks and signs that are around and typically I'm not really listening to music because you have to be attentive to your environment and you have to know like who's calling or singing and be able to pick out like oh that's just a chickadee you know um or that's a bald eagle over there. And so you can kind of focus your energy towards a specific species. And, yeah, the whole process, I would say, is like 90% of the work. And then the last 10% is when you find something and you're like,

okay, this is worth it. That's when, like, the camera comes out. And actually the photo and the video takes happens. So that seems like you have to learn, like, a lot to do this. Like, for people who are like, I could do it. Because I look at some nature photos and I could do that. And I think we all have like a little bit of a bias towards like, I'm just great. And I could do lots of different things.

But like to be able to take the patients to research what bird you're looking for to figure out where its habitats are going to be located, where those habitats are not only like globally, but like within your own within the phrase valley or within BC. And then to go out, bring all your equipment, your gear. like I've seen that you've had to like put on like like wet suit kind of equipment to be ready to be uh out in the water to get that good angle um I'm sure for listeners I'm sure in an ethical way um but then you have to also be good at photography which is like like some people just focus on the like photography is like hard just if you're just doing photography so what is that journey kind of been like um so yeah it's uh the best way and to do it, I think, is just to do it ethically because you're putting your subjects front and foremost, right? Like, their welfare is really important if you really truly love your subjects.

And unfortunately, there are, you know, photos of, like, people baiting their subject or just using callback, just, you know, playing the song, for example, like an alarm call that attracts, like, particular species of birds. So you're against that. So, like... It's not a black or white issue, I would say.

If you're doing it a lot in like a popular park, then that is really detrimental to the bird. But if, for example, you're in a remote area and no one's ever going to see this bird again, and then you use it like once or twice, and that's the only time you'll hear in its life, then the disturbance to that particular individual is very minimal. But I personally don't do that. There's such a thing as, you know, the right subject and like the wrong location. And so when that happens to me, I'm just like, oh, I have to find another one somewhere else. But yeah, I don't think it's like a black or white issue.

But it's important to note that, you know, overusing it or using like baiting methods in like popular areas is really, really bad. And like just taking advantage of like a particular species, for example. Interesting. Again, things I would have never like considered is like how we. would you approach those types of techniques and tools and, like, the responsibilities you have because you talk about your subjects with such care in comparison to the average person who sees a bird and goes, click. What about Flash? Is Flash an issue?

I personally don't use Flash. It could be an issue for, like, nocturnal subjects, like owls. Some individuals are more sensitive to it than others. So it's, again, it's like a case-to-case basis. But for owls, for example, I do not photograph them during the day because they're sleeping and I don't really want to disturb them from that. It's like every time an owl opens its eyes and looks at you, you're taking away from it's like resting time and it needs as much energy as it does to like hunt in the evening. So the way I photograph owls is that I come around during dawn or dusk when they're actually active and they're actually moving. And yeah, typically when owls sleep during the day, they're hidden, like, really thick,

branchy or thorny bushes, and it's not a good photo anyway. And you're like, I think it's not a good photo to make out of it if it's just sleeping in, like, a thorny bush. And I don't want to disturb it, you know. So typically, I will find an owl, and then I'll just come back during, like, dawn and dusk, and when it's actually active, and then I set up a shot that way. And it's a real challenge because the light is dwindling to, so you have to, be really good at like your camera settings and know what you're doing to able to to be able to capture like a sharp image interesting so i'm interested to know what process like if are there

i'm sure there are books out there that explain this i'm sure there are but i kind of figured it out on my own okay so like do you do you think that that would be you're very insightful on this and um i don't know if you know who stephen who is uh but i had the opportunity opportunity to interview him, and he wrote 105 hikes in and around southwestern B.C. He also wrote Best Hikes and Nature Walks for Children and Families, which is coming out May 22, which is next month. And then he wrote another hiking book, Best Hikes in and around Southwestern BC. And so he's written quite a few books, just draw on the lower mainland in hiking. And you have a lot of insights on on on birds on how to how to watch birds ethically how to go out

in nature ethically and so I'm just interested like what's what are some of the steps you would outline for somebody who's like they're hearing this they're going like I got to get out there right now and putting on my shoes what would you what would you want to say to that person um I would say it's definitely uh more important to learn more about your subjects and their habitats and kind of learning when a bird is showing signs of stress. So for alas, for example, you know, when nocturnal species are sleeping during the day, they have their eyes close. And when you're trying to take a photograph and you see it opening its ice, it's telling you that you're too close and you have to like back off. So, you know, knowing those little nuances, I think is more

important than just, you know, just going for the photo. I know it's like really exciting to get a photo of like a really cute owl, but it's important to research your subject and to and to be respectful and ethical of them as well. That is really interesting and being mindful. So like really, is there good books on

this that you would recommend people look into to make sure that they're, like, do they have those nuances that you're sort of highlighting about owls and about their distance? There's definitely a couple articles, I'm not sure if there are a couple books, but articles from Birds Canada ourselves and from like

Audubon Society that highlight, like, how to photograph owls ethically or how to photograph, you know, particular birds ethically. Yeah, there's definitely resources available online. Interesting. Would you, if some, this is just another hypothetical, if somebody came to you and they were like, you should write a book on this. Because I feel like either start a podcast or write a book, whichever one you're more comfortable with.

But I feel like this is a topic that's when I reached out, it's like, it feels like we're in need of more people like. yourself like it's important that we care for these habitats and even if part of the proceeds went to like restoring habitats or something that this is something that is not on many people's radar but that should be and that it would be cool to have like a good understanding of what to do in BC in regards to birds yeah that's uh i never thought about that but yeah that's something I potentially do um yeah you're right and not a lot of people talk about um like photographing what life quite ethically that way um but yeah if there's you know if there's a uh if there's a if there's

a if there's a need for it definitely something to fill it's just it's nice when people put their values first and like sometimes with people who post on instagram i'm sure that you've seen people post on instagram and you go what are you doing like no and like having educational resources i think are so important for people because you're one of the best people to do it because you care and you don't just care about getting the photo. You care about doing it right. And I think we need to work to elevate voices like yours who care about that part of it. And Stephen has done a great job in all of his books of highlighting like this is what this meant to indigenous people. This is how to approach hiking. Don't like what is that saying like pack in, pack out. Like don't

leave stuff there. Those type of information I think it's so important for people to be able to learn about. Yeah, for sure. And no, that's great to hear that he's doing some fantastic work on that end. But yeah, I've definitely seen on Instagram, like, a couple of, some owl species that are, you know, very nocturnal and they don't open their eyes until it's completely dark. And it's like bright daylight and their eyes are open. I'm like, how close did you get to this owl? Like, it's supposed to be sleeping right now. But yeah, it's important to keep the welfare of her subjects at the forefront.

That's amazing. I'm wondering if you would be willing, you have. have an amazing nature photography page. I'm wondering if we would be able to take those photos. We can go through perhaps each one and you can kind of walk us through what the process was and then we can cut to when you're describing it for listeners, what I can edit in that photo so that people can see your photo and how you went about taking it in each one. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, that sounds good. Yeah. Perfect. I think there's a couple, yeah, a couple owl species there. that might be good. Yeah, what are your favorite type of owls or what stands out to you about owls? Owls are just, they're so interesting

because they live like completely different lifestyles compared to us. And, you know, we're typically, you know, trying to avoid the dark and we're not, we're not adept to that sort of environment. And so seeing, you know, owls like wake up at dusk and dawn and, you know, they're about to, um, they're about to start their day and, you know, all these crazy adaptations, like they can hear, um, you know, mice and like small movements

throughout the forest. It's just so, so interesting. Yeah, I find owls. We got to see one in the daytime, um, on a tree just watching us. And it was so, it was the first time my partner had ever seen an owl. And it was such a unique experience. And we still, maybe you can help identify it for us after, but we didn't know what type of owl was, and we were mind-blown to see it during the day, and it was her first time, and so it was super humbling, and that's what sort of got me down the, I need to know more about birds, like, how do I not know? And so I find owl is probably one of the most interesting, because their head turns all the way around. I don't know. Do you know why that that? Yeah, that's because their eyes are so big, they actually can't move their eyeballs

like we do, so they're fused to like their sockets. And so for an owl to look around, it has to like turn its whole head it can't move its eyeballs itself does it have better sight than yes they do have better sight than most people for sure because they they need to hunt in the dark yeah interesting so we have the American Bidern is this the one that you're talking about yes this is the the Bairn that's schooled me yeah and so what was so this was the one that took 24 hours to take the photo of yes that's right interesting And so where was that photo taken? That was around in Surrey.

Interesting. Like a certain spot? Yeah, like the local wetlands around there. Okay. And then we have the Bard Owl Stricks, Varia? Yes. Yeah, that is a very interesting individual, actually. So I found this guy in a very popular park in Surrey.

It's a small forest understory, and that's where he and his mate are roosting. were roosting for the winter. And people were setting up, like, photo shoot, like, booths and, like, setups, like, right under the forest. And the owls just sitting there, like, watching them during the day. So are you okay with that? Is that what they did was... Well, they weren't really bothering their owls, and the owls chose to be there.

Like, they're completely... The owls are very comfortable with. Bart owls are very good in urban environments. Interesting. Yeah. And, but, yeah, the people don't notice that the, you know, there's two owls, like, looking at them there. like, oh, that's funny.

Oh, wow. It's very cute. Yes, it is. But yeah, they like that place because of, you know, tons of squirrels running around. And once it gets dark, it doesn't matter how busy it is during the day. It's all theirs. What does it mean to you to be able to get a photo like this? Like, this is such a special photo.

Yeah, it is. It's really rewarding because owls are typically roosting in, like, really unfodogenic sites. And so having one, finding one in, like, a good. spot and like um where it's comfortable is really really uh yeah rewarding roosting that's just it's a word i only think of with chickens so you're expanding michael now we're talking about a marsh wren cystotaurus palestris yeah i didn't say that right did i uh no i think you got that um yes this is very very small for for people just listening yeah This is a small bird that is quite loud.

Birds in the Wren family, they belt out so many notes within, you know, a couple seconds. And it's, once you get an ear for it, you can kind of tell if a bird is a wren, because it's just like so many notes, like, as it's, I can play the song for you. Okay, yes, please play the sound for us. I can't replicate this. For people just listening, this is sort of what I would call, like, a chickadee. It's got, birds' feet are so interesting Because they're like, they're orange

On this marsh rent, they're orange And they kind of remind you like chicken feet And it's on a stick and it is teeny tiny And it's just, it's very interesting to see Sort of the makeup of these birds And actually really think about it Yeah, they're great birds And yeah, they've got quite the voice

So I'll play that for you now yeah so yeah so it's that sort of um yeah lots of notes within like a couple seconds and yeah they're quite loud and quite territorial as well during this time this is such a cool I'm learning so much this is blown my mind Okay, so this isn't a bird, but it's a yellow-bellied marmotet, which is marmoda flavaventress. Yeah, fleaventress, yeah. It's very cute. It looks sort of like an order for people just listening.

Yeah, it's actually a member of like the rodent family. Right. And when I first moved to the Okinawana, one of my targets was the yellow-bellied marmot. And I was like, oh, you know, there's not a ton of them around. It turns out they're everywhere. like squirrels to pop up left and right during the early spring

I would drive out to like this location because I knew there were like a couple of marmots hanging out and I would try and photograph them but never come away with something like

you know photogenic and then as I was driving on the way home like beside the road of our street there was just a marmot there I was like oh okay it's like a five minute walk

from my place oh my gosh that's so interesting so how long did you live in the Okanagan for? I stayed in the Okanagan for about eight months. What was that like? How did that compare to being in like wetlands? Very interesting. A lot of the places in the Okanagan aren't as well developed. So there's a lot of like dirt roads and yeah, a lot more like grasslands and hills and things like that to cover, which can be unnerving at times because I was still a newish photographer

and, you know, just wandering into kilometers of, like, hills and tall grass. Like, oh, I don't know what's like looking around the corner or around, like, those trees. Is that a challenge? Like, is there differences in, like, the makeup of the animals depending on, like, desert versus wetlands? Like, we hear about, like, the color of certain animals. Does that change? You said in the Philippines, they were more colorful. Do we know why that is?

Yeah, for sure. so there's definitely different species that you see in like specific habitats so for example you won't find an albatross in the prairie right like that's not their habitat they live in the sea but yeah typically birds who are more colorful those are the males because they're attracting females and with species that are polygamous meaning they have many different mates the males will typically tend to be more vibrant and

exaggerated, I guess, with the colors because they're trying to attract many different mates versus birds that are monogamous, for example, like Canada geese, you know, males and females don't look very different from each other because they mate, they only have one mate and then they raise their chicks. But yeah, the result of males looking like really decorated and colorful is because of the sexual selection. So that's because the females are preferring males that look, you know, more and more brighter and ridiculous and, like, more colors and things like that. It's, it's interesting that, like, the beauty that we see. So, like, I already forgot it. What was that word to describe them flying in that beautiful? Murmuration.

Mirmeration. Yes. That is caused to try and protect them from being attacked. It's not for beauty. But we see it and we go, that's beautiful. Yeah. And then with the sounds that they make to try and attract mate. That is for sexual selection. And then the color is for sexual selection. So it's just interesting that like the things that make birds beautiful to us aren't necessarily all just for sexual selection of the other mate. Sometimes it's just for protection and for safety. And that we see beauty, despite the fact that it wasn't meant for that, we see beauty in that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's like lots of great memes on the internet, you know, with like birds singing, they're actually, you know,

saying profanities and things like that. It's not like a sweet song to it that we hear. That's true. Yeah. Okay, so now we're looking at the great horned owl for people just listening, which is, I'm going to mess this up. Bubo Virginianus. Virginis.

Yes, Bubo Virginianis. No, you got it right. That's great. This is one of those scenarios where I was kind of looking for around a particular location, and suddenly, you know, I find, like, an owl, and I have to, like, run back 20 minutes to my car, grab my camera, and hopefully he was still there. And I believe this was a female, and I could tell that because females hoot seven times versus males that hoot, like, five or six notes. No way. Like, they have a different number of, who figures this out?

How do you... murders. But like how, without going into their business, how do you make sure that you're correct? Like they hoot seven times or they hoot six times and you're like, now I'm 100% sure that this is a male versus a female. But like, you have to go check. Yeah, and the people before have checked and that's what we're going off. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah, there's some species of owl that sing like the female's singing.

higher note of like the same song and then the males sing like a lower note and so when owls like two owls sing together it's called a duet i didn't even know that they i didn't know that yeah they sing together like they make a song together yes so are owls typically monogamous yes they are yeah uh typically did you have one mate yeah until the mate um dies or yeah i don't know why I take it personally like I'm like more proud of out like good for you owls like penguins I'm like I get you guys I just appreciate the monogamous move more yeah and so what was the journey of taking this photo you said that you had to go back and get your camera but were you out looking and you saw it or yeah I was I was out looking uh it was my first time around this

park and yeah I was just looking to see what's there and then I saw the owl and ran back grab my camera and she was quite active on this branch there and I just took that to my advantage and you know photographed her that way because typically as I mentioned they would be like like a very obscured location not very photogenic but when I saw her singing there I was like oh you know this is my chance you know this doesn't happen often and that was actually one of like the more challenging photographs to capture because I shot it with a very slow shutter speed so that means because because because I need to gather more light for the scene this was at dusk, you have to open

the shutter of the camera a lot longer. The problem with that is that if the aisle moves, it's going to become a blurry image. So you have to take lots of frames and kind of strategically wait for like the owl to pause and then you take your photo. Right. So that it looks sharp and bright like that.

Okay, you have like a crazy camera. Can you tell us a little bit about like so like people who bird watch, they have this crazy tube over their camera what please explain this to me

yes so yeah wildlife photographers have a what you call a long lens or a telephoto lens

and we used that to like magnify the image seen on the camera and so that means we don't have to get as close to our subject and I think that's good

for like our safety in there's like you definitely don't want to walk up to an L and take its photo because you're disturbing it or you know it's going to fly away

and it's going to get scared And so, yeah, long lenses really help in trying to, like, bring the animal closer to you. Can you tell us a little bit about your camera and your setup for people who might be like, this is really, like, I'm excited about the idea of doing this. What is your process? How did you go about choosing your camera and your equipment? Yeah, so I'm currently shooting with a Canon 500mm F4 that is the IS version, the one that's 12 years old, and I'm shooting on a crop sensor camera called the Canon 90D.

and I chose a crop sensor camera because it actually magnifies the focal length, well not, it technically multiplies, air quotes, the focal length more of like whatever lens you have by the crop factor. And so the crop factor of my camera is 1.6 times. And so shooting that with a 500 millimeter, it looks more like a 60040 millimeter, which is about like 11 times magnification. And lots of people, like the professional photographers, they use full frames, full frame cameras,

which, you know, it's just there's no crop factor to it. And it has lots of benefits, like better in low light, shallower depth of field and things like that. But I choose to shoot with a crop sensor because I find the reach really valuable in, yeah, just keeping, a good distance between me and my subjects, and, you know, typically, you know, wildlife don't want anything to do with you anyway. So, yeah, I think it benefits both me and the

subjects that I photograph. Interesting. What has the journey of learning about photography been like? Because it's, you just had a lot of words that, whoa, whoa. Yes. It's been, it's been interesting because I, I only learned from YouTube, like, just watching tons of YouTube videos and yeah I knew really nothing about it I only started in 2019 and I just got obsessed with creating better and better images I'm like oh this needs to look better or this needs to be more sharp and things like that and so I just watched a ton of YouTube videos and I didn't realize until recently when I was teaching like photography workshop I was like oh actually know a lot about settings and things like that that's amazing yeah

What is this? The northern shoveler, or also known as Spatula Clipida. Yes. That is what you call a dabbling duck. And so in the duck family, there are two main groups. So we have like diving ducks and dabbling ducks. So dabbling ducks are the ones that kind of feed on the surface, and then they kind of tip their butts up into the air.

So if you've seen mallards at your local pond, they're like, you know, their tails are up but are up in the air. And then diving ducks are the ones that have to go underwater and forage for their food that way. So this one is a dabbing, dabbling duck, the northern shoveler. And you might have noticed that it has a very large bill. Yeah, it sort of looks like a beaver's tail if I were to like compare it on its face. Yes. Very flattering. Yeah, it's a great species to kind of observe

Because you just see them like swimming through the water With their bills in the water And they're just sifting the water for like invertebrates And things like that And I've actually documented cool behavior With northern shovelers where You know, lots of ducks start swimming in circles They kind of make their own whirlpool

And I was like, what is going on there? Like, you know, it's just you walk into it You're going to blow my mind Don't just do it. Yeah, they just see a large, you know, flock of birds just swimming around in circles in the wetland. You're like, what's going on there? And I learned that they're doing this because they're stirring up the sediment at the bottom of, like, the water and, like, the marsh. And so a lot of like the invertebrates, you know, get, you know, suspended in the water and they're filtering it that way.

And the more they do it, the more, you know, the bigger effect is. So super cool. How long do you think it takes for something to develop? that skill because like when Paul was describing like I think it was the honeybees dancing he was like that takes thousands of years to develop and like I believe him but I also believe that it's possible that these things can be learned quicker than that yeah it depends on like the brain or the learning ability of like particular species right so for crows for example they pick up skills a lot more easier, right?

Like, they're quite smart, like, how to get food around urban areas, right? When they see a potato chip, they know how to, like, flip it on a potato, like, a chip bag, they know how to flip it on, like, the open side. And so it comes out, like, the food comes out. Have you, what? Yeah, I've seen Croix, like, do that around parking plants. Yeah. Like, they know, like, you know, the opening of the garbage, right?

Like a garbage, like a plastic bag. They know which side is, which, you know, is open and which is close. And so they'll, like, pull it from, like, the closed side. so all the food like gets laid up. I swear I'm not doing this on purpose. It's just it keeps freaking my brain out that these things are taking place. Because I knew that they like, they pick up a nut and they fly up high and they drop it. Yeah.

That I'm fine with. Picking up a garbage bag from the right side. That's freaking me out. Yeah, definitely seen them do that. So the weird thing about ducks though really quickly is like they have like something weird with their mating though, right? They have, like, a curled penis. They have a curled, and then, but the female, they can cut it off. Yeah, she also has, like, a maze of, like, you know.

Yeah, they make it, like, so it's like a puzzle piece that you have to, like, go through to, and that, that's developed because there's such, like, what is it called? Because dolphins have a similar problem. Like, just them, like a bird attacking and basically, like, raping the other bird. Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of like, yeah, a lot of, like, ducks kind of force, like, the male ducks force themselves upon other females. And, yeah, in response to that, the females have evolved, you know, corkscrew vaginas as well for, like, the corkscrew penis. Yeah. And insects have even more interesting adaptations to that.

Oh, let's do it. So there are, yeah, there are males with like a brush at the end, at the tip of like their reproductive organs where it kind of brushes like the sperm away from like the females, you know, vagina to like take the sperm away from like other other males who have previously made it with like this particular insect or beetle, for example. So he wants to make sure that it's only his genes that it's, you know, fertilizing the female. That is crazy.

What? It's, yeah, it's excited. I would never have thought of that. I know that, like, praying mantis is pretty crazy.

And, like, I guess we can't say that, like, what we just discussed is too crazy because, like, black widows kill their spouse after they usually eat them.

Yeah. So that's pretty. Yeah. So do you study, like, spiders when you're studying, um, insects?

Because they're not, they're not, they're not technically insects. We do have a lab that kind of study spiders, but I never really studied them. Yeah, they're more related to, like, crabs, honestly, than insects. They're more related. Did you just say they're more related to crabs? Yes.

No. Yeah, and like lobsters, yeah. What? Yeah. So people are saying, like, for some countries, you know, they eat spiders and, you know, they barbecue it or something. and then some people who have tried to say, like, oh, it tastes like crab or, like, lobsters. I guess, like, when you think of how a crab looks, spiders aren't... What do you think would win?

A crab or a spider, if they were in a fight with each other? Who are you betting on? Who are you putting your money on? Well, spiders have, like, venom, so... But, like, what are you going to do with that crab, that shell? That is true. Yeah. You can bite it in the eye or something.

Yeah, and then the crabs have... those pincers. They do, yeah. They could stomp on particular spiders. But spiders also have silk, so they could do, like, that little Star Wars thing where they wrap the legs and the crap just falls to the ground. I'm really guilty for, like, finding those videos fascinating. There's a video of an alligator eating another alligator.

Wow. And it blew my mind. And, like, I find that fascinating. Like, there was another one of, uh, not a cobra. um what are they called they're really predominant in florida right now they're like a real problem uh like reticulated pythons yes yeah and their uh one was eating an alligator that blue there just blows my like it just i don't know why i like those weird ones where you're like what would happen yeah yeah it's crazy yeah it actually happens in real life it's weird

it's like anacondas like eating cayman's or something like oh what are camels are kind of like a smaller alligator and they're yeah they're the quite populous around like the amazon rainforest yeah super interesting i just yeah now i'm curious as to how that would play out because even like when you watch like a praying mantis fight like a spider it's like whoa and like you realized that like you didn't know who was going to win yeah yeah okay now we're on to the northern harrier which is circus hudson yes yes um that is a raptor. It's more of like a hawk, actually. But it's its own group called Harriers. And you'll see them like flying over marshes and wetlands. And they typically go for mammal prey like

voles and rodents around. Bowls? Voles. Yes. We're back to voles. Yes. You're right. They are like a hawk, but they've got a prettier face. They do. A lot of people actually sometimes mis-id them because their face is quite flat. They look like owls. Yeah, but they're similar to owls that they're listening for, you know, wrestling or movement around the marsh. Interesting.

Their hearing's really good, right? Yes. They're crazy. All birds are just more? Owls especially. But yeah, not all of them have like this similar adaptation. Interesting. Okay, this one has got to be the cutest.

For people just listening, you need to go on to his website. Chris K-R-I-S-C-U, if you're just listening, and you need to go see the Bard Owl Ed. It is the cutest thing. Like, you need a picture of this owl in your house. You just, this is what you need to wake up to in the morning. This is adorable.

It is like a little fluffball with black eyes. It is so adorable. Please tell us about the Stricks very eye. Yeah, barred owls are great. I ran into this particular one. it's not shown in the photo but there were actually four or five owls that day and I was just out for a stroll in my local forest you know just birding seeing what's around and then I hear like the sharp call which is a begging call of the owl and I was like oh my gosh there's owls around here what does that sound like I don't want to be yeah I don't want to be weird but so like again this is just like the most fluffy looking owl and it's beautiful because it's got this green backdrop so you it really pops out and it really pops out and it's just like the most fluffy looking owl and it's beautiful because it's got this green backdrop so you it really pops out. and yeah I just I think you're an amazing photographer and it's just so cool to see these photos and yeah this is just an adorable I will play the call for you

that is crazy so that is the that's like the begging call of like an outlet like hungry yes like give me food yeah wow Yeah, so imagine it's just walking around your forest and you hear that and you're like, oh, you know. Again, you know, if you want to get into like wildlife and nature photography, you, it's good to know. It's very helpful to know, like, to know who's making that sound. You're like, oh, you can tell immediately, oh, that's an owl, you know, that's worth photographing. You're trying to photograph. Yeah, so you did you know when you heard that?

You're like, that's an owl? Yes, I've heard that one before, yeah. And I've seen them, I've seen the juveniles before I make that call. Do you listen to that prior? Like, do you, is that, like, something you need to look and do in your research? You absolutely can, and it's great with, you know, apps like Merlin. They have, you know, which is what I'm using now, they have, like, the list of the calls and songs of, like, a particular bird.

And so you can practice anywhere you'd like. That's just Merlin. Just Merlin app? Yes, Merlin. Available on, like, Apple. Yes. All free. Now we're talking about the American Robin,

which has got that beautiful orangey color and tortoise migratorious. Ooh, I like that word. Microtorius. Migratorious. Yeah, American Robins are great. They, yeah, a lot of people kind of pass them over because, you know, you see them all over the place. But it's a great species. They're quite vocal. It actually fooled me when I first started birding because they have so many different calls.

And you have like three or four. And you have to learn all of them. And you realize, oh, it's just the robin. It's not like a different bird. It's all robin. Oh, interesting. Um, but yeah, this was shot during like a snowfall in, um, in Vancouver and I noticed them like feeding on, on these berries. And I was like, oh, it'll be a great photo to, to Snappo.

Yeah, it's beautiful because the berries have got like a little snow on them and they're snow falling in the background. What, do you know what type of berries those are? I feel like we can't eat those. It's, it's passing me, but I did, I did look into those berries. I can't remember it right now. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. photo. Wow. Okay, so what we're looking at for people just listening is like when you go to like an exhibition park where they play games at night, they've got those big lights and then there is a great horned owl on it. Again, Bubo Virginius. And it is sitting, but it's just, it's like a silhouette almost. I just learned that word last week. Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah, this was

this is also interesting because this was early in March or February, sorry. Owls typically start calling and breeding quite a bit earlier than other birds. So they start

hooting and claiming territory around like February. And so I found this owl and his mate around this local forest which is very close to like a neighborhood and they would just hoot around dusk and this particular

male he flew to the light stand and he just sat there for a bit called out a couple times and then flew back to the forest and be like okay this patch is mine that's amazing do you ever feel like it's just luck or is it strategy like this photo just seems like so unique

but it feels like it needs to be on the front cover it was luck oh yeah this is definitely luck you know I I wasn't attending to You know, I didn't have this photo in mind when I went to look for the owls, but they flew, you know, he flew right to the stand. I was like, okay, I got to get shot of that. That's pretty good.

Yeah, that is an amazing. And the ears too, I love that. Yeah, because it really stands out. And this is Northern Harrier. This is beautiful because it's more of a front end. How big is that wingspan? Like if you had to guess. That's a great question.

They're not terribly large, maybe about like the size of this desk. That's really, yeah, a little bit smaller, I think. Yeah, does that impress you at all about birds, though? How crazy the wingspan is? Uh-huh. You should see a wandering, oh, I have a photo of a wandering albatross next to a person. Oh, my gosh. So I will just find this.

So that's how big that bird is. Oh, my gosh. So for people just listening, this is, the wingspan is big. than the person. It looks like a person probably 5-8, 5-9, and then the wingspan, even the body of it is like the size of this guy's body. Like it is crazy how wide it is and then like the wingspan is far longer than the person. That's incredible. And so that's the albatross. Yeah, that's the wandering albatross. World's largest albatross. Oh, that's the photo of the... A wandering albatross. Yes, yeah.

Interesting. We will try and put that up on the video for people to watch. So now we're looking at a California quail. Mm-hmm. Very, very cute. What are we, weird looking in comparison to what we've looked at so far. And I don't even, Calipepla, California. I like that, California.

California, yeah. So California quails are introduced in BC. They, yeah, they've become quite established, but they were introduced for hunting purposes. people like to hunt them for game but yeah they're quite coming around the Okinaaga and you see them like walking around urban neighborhoods and running around streets

and yeah the males look very dashing they've got a little crest that goes above their head very weird but very charismatic birds I would say here's a fun fact about quails did you know that vice president Dick Cheney shot somebody that he knows when he went quail hunting. Oh, my.

Yeah. That's not good. I'm pretty sure when he was vice president. Oh, geez. And people should go check out the movie Vice. Yeah. That was a really good movie. Oh, dear.

Oh, these are, see, these are adorable. So we're at the Great Horned Owlets. Are these different than the ones we were just looking at before, the other outlet? Yes, that was different. So baby owls are just adorable in general. They are. They're just fluff balls, and they look like, muppets. It's great. I like owls. I just feel like I'd be one of those terrible people who'd

only want them when they're a baby. Because they're really, really cute. It literally looks like they're just a bag of snow with eyes. It's basically just fluff. It's supposed to keep them warm and they don't have flight feathers. So yeah, this photo was incredible. Like the experience itself was incredible. I found them around five minutes away from my house. And they, I found the adults had a nest on like this big leaf maple that was quite deep into a park. And I had to use a two times teleconverter. And what that is, it magnifies the focal length of your lens by two times. So if a 500 millimeter is like a 10 times magnification, it becomes like a 20 times magnification with this like this little piece of gear.

That's how far away they were. And I photographed these owls during dawn. they're quite adventurous like this time of year because they start wandering off to get a little bit restless away from their nests, you know, it's getting crowded for them. And so I saw that, you know, it like perched upon this, this beautiful big leaf maple and there's like licorice fur and growing all around there. And I was like, oh gosh, I got to take a photo of this. Oh my gosh.

So do you have to have your camera stabilized on something? Absolutely. You think of like when you, the more you zoom in, the more you, like any sort of movement, the more difficult, like the more blurry the photo is if you move. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, this is another one of those challenging photographs to capture sharp because it has to be really stable, so there's not supposed to be like a ton of wind around.

And then it's during dawn, so very low light, and you have to open your shutter up really big, extended periods of time. And what the two-time silo converter does, The downside to magnifying your focal length is that it cuts the amount of light coming into your lens. And so you have to expose the shutter even longer to get the same amount of light without using a teleconverter versus with using it. And so, yeah, very photographic, very challenging photograph to take. But I think this is one of like two images that came out sharp. That's amazing, though, because like how many photos of Greyhorn outlets do you think exist?

A ton. You think so? A ton. Yeah, people love owls. I've just never seen any other than your photo. Like when you think of common, it's like on Instagram, is it common? Yes. Yeah.

Definitely. Wow. Alts are very popular photographic subjects in wildlife photography. The Great Horned Owlets? All owls, all species of owls. Yeah. People go crazy for owls. So you said you took these at dawn.

What is dawn to you? How early are you getting up for that? About, well, I have to get to location around 45 minutes before sunrise, which gets harder through the summer, which is primarily why winter is shooting so much, because I come a little bit later. So what time are you getting up? Like, what does that look like over again? Yeah, this time of year, around like 5 to 5.30, depending on where I'm driving to. Because once you get to the location, you have to set up, and then you have to walk to where the spot is. And that could be more or less time depending on the location, right?

That's incredible. Yeah. And then, you know, that really nice liver of light only happens with like 15 minutes, 20 minutes, and then it's gone. Can you tell us what that is? Again, I had Alex Hardon, who's a photographer, and he does grad photos by donation. He was trying to, like, support the community, and people were graduating and not able to celebrate. And so he was trying to use his photography skill to, like, give back to the community and make, like, celebrating your graduation accessible you can do photos outside so it was more accessible and he was explaining the process of

like taking photos during these small periods of time it still wrinkles my brain so could you explain that yeah so typically the light is best when it's kind of more horizontal um versus vertical like coming down from the top of you so that's what we call like golden golden hour or blue hour after the sun sets um that's when the light is a little bit softer it's a little bit more pleasing versus like the harsh midday sun. And typically, that's the best time to photograph wildlife as well, because it's when they're most active, like dawn and dusk, you know, they're getting hungry or they're just waking up,

so they're looking for food and things like that. Wow. So it's a lot of work. This is not happened by accident. It's a lot of work for sure. Yeah. So the red-breasted sap sucker. Well, that's fun to say.

Siffer-picus rubber. Did I say that one right? Yes, you did. Oh, wow. yeah um this is actually a type of woodpecker uh called the sap sucker and what they do is they drill little holes into like uh douglas fir trees and sap comes out and then they lap the sap up and then they fly to another tree and drill another hole and so if you see a tree with like neatly drilled holes in it it looks like somebody you know um just excavated it so so perfectly it's the work of

sapsuckers. Oh my gosh. That's really cool. So their beak has to be like probably reinforced or something. Yes, very sharp. Yeah. Their, um, their whole anatomy is, uh, similar to woodpeckers. You know, they, they're built to withstand like the force of like banging your head against the journey. Oh my gosh. I actually was, uh, through the, um, what is it called? A hunter gatherers guide to the 21st century. They were talking about how, um, like, we are not a blank slate as human beings, but we are the blankest slate there is. So that doesn't mean that we're not, we're just a blank slate, but we're the blankest slate there is.

The cool thing about people is that we can do so many different things. We can figure out what our passion is and go share that. And that's what I always try and stress in every episode with each person is because the last person prior to you was a person who was fascinated by leather work and heritage items and making leather by hand and like that purpose. process. That's completely different than what you're doing. And we have something to learn from each person who figures out what that is and shares that and shares how they go about working on their craft. And I imagine, and maybe you can share, what has the development over time been like

for you to, like, improve and to see, I didn't, like, your first photo probably wasn't your favorite photo. You've grown and developed and improved over time. So what has that journey sort of been like for you? It's been really great to try and, like, challenge yourself to, like, you know, reach another level, particularly with, like, the technical aspects of photography, right? Because so many things, you have to have your, like, image sharp, and also you have to have, like, really good light, or you have to find your subject. And, you know, sometimes you have to try a different sort of exposure to give it more unique feel to your image. But yeah, it's been, it's been great with social media, especially, and, like, photo competitions, because you see, like, the standard

and the level of, like, photography that other photographers are doing. And you're like, wow, that's really great. Like, I haven't tried that technique or I love the way he used, like, the light in this photo. And, yeah, it's really great to kind of experiment and learn more and explore other styles. So you're not just, you know, shooting, like, flat light every time, for example. Right. Is that challenging at all? Does it, the question I always have is, like, does it ever become a job?

Does it ever become, like, where you're competing, like, maybe there's like a financial incentive to be in this competition so that you can continue doing the work you do but then it's not it's not what it was it's it's now like a task and you have to like is is there ever a challenge with trying to balance your passion for nature with the technical job kind of more aspects of it yeah for sure um especially with like my friends tell me I'm really hard on myself and my photos like I'm always saying like oh you know something else that can be, like, improved on this image. Like, there's something else that could be tweaked

or it could look better this way, you know, a different perspective. So it gets challenging sometimes and frustrating that you're like, you have something you want in your head, but you're not getting it. Again, because, you know, nature of photography, things have to align. And, yeah, you just have to be persistent, you know, just keep trying and, yeah. How often is it better than you expected? Is it, like, typically in your head, you have like a, a standard that you'd like it to be, and it doesn't reach that?

Or is it just different? For better or for worse, there's typically a standard that I'm trying to achieve with my photos. And I've become really stubborn, especially with light. Like if it's past, like, you know, it's not like orange or red or what I'm looking for. I'm like, uh, whatever. I'll just put my camera away and just go burning. Wow. So you're really tough on yourself in that way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think so. I think my friends tell me that too. But the end result is something that I'm actually going to be proud of, right? Like, I can say, like, oh, I really worked hard to get this image. Like, the bittern, for example. Yeah. So is it good, too? Because, like, for me, what I find helps is, like, a distance.

So, like, I always go through a podcast and re-listen to it to see, did I ask good questions? Did I ask, like, was I engaging? Could I have asked a better question? I go through and I try and see, like, maybe you should have, like, you've followed up too quickly with another question instead of letting the person kind of find their way on a thought or something like I really try and hone in on that but I need to give myself like a week and a bit or two weeks to distance myself so I kind of forget what I said like exactly how I phrased something because then I will be too hard on myself when you look back at some of the

photos we're looking at now is it easier to go like that's a great photo or are you going back to like I was standing here and I should have been standing there and like this is the Do you still go there, or is it easy to look at these photos and go, like, that's great? I don't think I'm ever going to be satisfied with, like, the photos I take. I don't know, maybe just, like, the artist did me. But, yeah, when I look at a photo, I'm just like, oh, you know, there's something that else that could be, like, changed or improved with this, or I should have tried a different technique. And so that's one of the things that keep pulling me back to, like, the field, right? Like, oh, I got to try something different, or, yeah, I got to experiment with, like, different sort of light.

and you've got to find a different location for this particular bird. Why do you take photos? Because, like, you can say, like, well, I'm going out there. I want to see it. But, like, are you taking photos for your own catalog? Like, do you have a binder at home? Or are you doing this so other people see? Because, like, for me, when you're taking photos,

I get to see what you see. I get to see the beauty of these animals in a different light than if... Because when you walk through a trail, you're just sort of like, oh, there's a... a crow. Oh, there's an eagle. But there are people like you who make, um, there was somebody who did a good job of explaining this. They took photos of like a barrel of hay just at different times. Wow. And you just see the differences in the hay depending on the light over time. And you realize that this barrel of hay is different in different lighting and, and how different it is. But

it's a barrel of hay. And most of the like, who cares? But that's what photography and artwork is supposed to do. It's supposed to make you see something through the eyes of the photographer. And so what makes you take photos? Like what brings you to, like, you get to see it and you could be like, I got to see it. So it's a good day. So where does the photography come in for you? I think for the most part, I really just want to showcase my subjects and like the interesting lives that they lead and the unique adaptations that they have. For example, with the bitter and like, you know, it calling and like it hiding around the marsh. And like, lots of people never get to see that, right? Unless you're a birdie or something. And so, you know, capturing

those images and like sharing like little slivers of that particular animal's life to other people, which normally they wouldn't be able to see, you know, something that really drives me. It's like a huge privilege. Yeah. That's amazing. I think I think you should be really proud of yourself because these photos are just just amazing. Is it ever tough doing photos, because, like, part of what you want is, like, the video element. And I know you do post videos on your Instagram page. But is that ever, like, the challenge of photos is you don't get to hear it. You don't get to see it move.

Yeah, for sure. There's definitely some scenes where video comes more in handy versus photos. For example, like a huge flock of birds flying. You know, it would be great to see that in video versus, like, a still form. So it's just picking, like, the appropriate moment or, yeah, the, the right time to post the video. Interesting. Yeah.

Did you actually run into a black bear? I did. Yes, that was actually during a road trip with my good friend Derek. We were, yeah, doing a road trip to the Rockies and we saw this bear across the road. And we just pulled over it next to it. And as it was rummaging through the vegetation and poked its head up for a bit, we snapped the photo of the bear and then went about its business. That's so wild.

I find bears so interesting because they're so much like dogs. Mm-hmm. There's lots of people saying, you know, bears are super dangerous or things like that. And they can be if you threaten them or you corner them. But for the most part, most wildlife don't want anything to do with you. Yeah, what's crazy is humans are dangerous. Like, well, that's just so crazy that people are like, you know, bears are dangerous. It's like, you know what's more likely going to, like, attack you to nowhere?

Somebody driving their car down the road. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah, when you encounter them, they just, you know, they look at you and then they walk away or they run away and they care about their business. Yeah, the one experience I had, I was up in Whistler with my uncle and this is not something I recommend, but I was between a bear and her cub. Yeah. And so I just kept slowly walking and they ended up heading into the forest and everything was fine. But it was up in Whistler, so they're not uncommon there, but it was like, oh, this is the exact circumstance.

literally everyone says to avoid. Yes. So now we're looking at, oh my gosh, and Anna's hummingbird, or I'm not even going to try. Yep. You go ahead. That is the Calipta Anna. Okay. Yeah.

Great hummingbird that is local all year round around here in Vancouver. Interestingly enough, they stick around in Vancouver because people started leaving hummingbird feeders all around throughout the year. And typically they're only found, like, more central to Southern California, but they've expanded slowly because of hummingbird feeders. Right. But, yeah, it's a great species to have around, and it's beautiful to see them, like, with the males and they're gorget. And, yeah. Hummingbirds are crazy, right?

Like, their heartbeat is pretty insane. Yeah, they're, I feel like hummingbirds are either on or off. It's like they're either buzzing around or just, like, sitting still and not doing much. I've never seen a hummingbird sitting still. Oh, really? No. Oh, there we go. You can hear them around, actually.

The anus are quite common if you hear... We'll play it again for you. Absolutely. If you hear a rasping sort of noise, it's pretty typical of anna's hummingbird. And a good place to look for it is on the tops or the tips of branches, because that's typically where they sing. So I'm going to play this song for you.

So, yeah, you'll just hear that, like, you know, like a metallic sort of rasping noise. You're like, oh, that's a hummingbird, yeah. Interesting. It doesn't have a very nice voice. No, it doesn't. That's unfortunate because they're so beautiful and they're so, they're so curious. Also, fun fact, did you know that praying mantises can take out a hummingbird? I have seen, like, photos of, yeah, praying mantis is just eating hummingbirds.

I'm like, oh, my gosh, invertebrates win this one. That's so crazy. Yeah Oh We have a clock That's a bird clock Oh nice I thought that was coming from outside

No Awesome A river otter The Launtra Catanesis Yeah Cadenesis Um

Yeah this was A very interesting started to this image This was when I was like First starting Uh photographing wildlife and I was out with a bunch of friends in the Okinaagan and we were out at this semi-frozen lake and I noticed there was a spot where

it wasn't completely frozen and there was an honor that was like playing around the snow banks. So what I did was I started walking on like this lake and it got pretty far to try and get close to this otter, which I don't think I'll do again. But I could see like where I was stepping like it was you know it was it was kind of sinking, and there's only like a few inches, I guess, that it's actually frozen. But yeah, I snap this photo as this otter popped out of his hole. And then after that, I was like, yeah, this isn't safe. I'm going to go back. Oh, my gosh.

What you're willing to do for an amazing photo. Yeah. But yeah, I wouldn't do that again. I think it was too risky. But for people just listening, it's like the order is literally looking at the camera. Like, I can't get my cat to look at a camera. You've got an otter in the water. Like, it's just crazy.

Yeah, just poked her set out for a few seconds. They'll ride back in. I was like, thank you. I'm going now. That's amazing. You've mentioned this one, the American Dipper. Sinkless Mexicanis. Yeah.

Yeah, that's an amazing song where it's just, you know, lives on the creek and dives in fast-flowing water. And, yeah, they're just a joy to watch. Wow. It's really, like, it's got a fat body. It's quite round, yeah. Yeah. Is there a real, like, it doesn't seem like it's that water dynamic. You would think that, but they're quite comfortable.

Like, they pop out of the water. They're still quite dry, and, yeah, the feathers are pretty waterproof. And, yeah. Do people collect feathers? Like, weird people, like, okay, lazy people seem to just collect, like, one eagle feather. But do real birders collect feathers? Yeah, there are people who collect feathers. There's, I believe there's an organization that's kind of against collecting feathers and things like that.

Oh, why? Like, obviously don't rip them off the bird. Yeah, but. Yeah, but sometimes, yeah, there are feathers, you know, that you just find lying around. And, yeah, there are definitely people collect them. I personally don't, but, yeah. Interesting. Definitely plays for that.

I'd be interested to know why you would not support. Yeah. Okay, this, this, does this win the prize for the weirdest? looking duck that there is. It's called the Mandarin duck for people just listening. Imagine a duck meets with a mandarin, and that's sort of what we're looking

at here. Akes Gallerichal, nope. Gallericata. Yes. So this is actually an introduced species. This is a local known as Trevor. He is in

Burnaby Lake most of the time. Trevor? Trevor. His name is Trevor. So there's only one? Yes, there's only one male Mandarin duck in Burnaby Lake. And I just, yeah, I couldn't pass up the opportunity. They looked so good. Who named him Trevor?

I don't know, but it's reference to, um, the Mandarin in like Iron Man, like Iron Man, like Iron Man 3. Oh, yeah, yeah. So that's why they called him Trevor. No, that makes sense. Yeah, because the bad guy, he ended up not being like the main villain. Yeah. But it was Trevor. But his name was Trevor.

The Mandarin. That is hilarious. Well done. Yeah. So if you ever in Burnaby Lake, you might see Trevor around hanging out with the other wood ducks. Wood ducks? Yeah, it's not his species, but he likes to, you know, mate with the female wood ducks there. Can he? He can, yeah.

But they don't really produce, like, viable young. Oh, so he can't. He does it for fun, I guess. Oh, Trevor. Mm-hmm. These bard owls, do you have a favorite owl? Do you have a bias for an owl? I'm definitely a little bit biased for it's like the great horned owl.

Interesting. I'm biased for this bared owl. Yeah, the bard owls are great. Bard. I'm saying baird. Yeah, bard. Bard. Yeah. Unfortunately, they're kind, they're technically invasive, the barred owls because they're native to the east coast, but they slowly started expanding to the west coast through like 1970s or 80s, I believe. and they do really well in urban environments and I've seen photos like barred owls perched on bus signs

which is crazy that is really crazy I appreciate them for coming out yeah and unfortunately they're kind of displacing our native like Western screech owls on the coast Oh what's a screechow? It's a smaller owl that has really beautiful song

that I will also play it for you Please play it for me because I think this is really cool Yes So lots of birds make noises that, you know, you don't associate with like a typical songbird song. And this Western screechell is described to have a song like a bouncing ball. And I'll play the duet for you. Yeah, so it's that, like, like the bouncing ball sort of voice. That is so wild.

Yeah. Because it had to have happened before we had balls that bounced. Yep. But it just sounds like, you know, like a bouncing ball. Yeah. That is so beautiful. So cool. Yeah. This is so much fun. Yeah.

So a common loon, Gavia Imer, for people just listening, it's got a beautiful black and white body. It looks kind of like it's got like a penguin-type kind of black-and-white neck. And then it's got red, dark red eyes. Dark red eyes, yeah. common loons are great they're the bird on our loony on our coin and yeah very

here on the coast when during the winter they look completely different from this they're just kind of like grey whiteish and most people just pass them over like oh whatever you know but during the breeding season they have like these breeding plumage and they look just absolutely gorgeous and they breed in like interior regions

of the province so you really won't find them around the coast during the summer. But if you go to like Kamloops or the Okanagan and you go to any lake that's kind of stocked with steelhead trout or rainbow trout, because people do that, you'll find loons and their chicks. It's really cute because the chicks right on the back of the parents' back. Yeah. And I had a photo.

I think I took it down from the website. but it's super cute. They're just resting on the back and, you know, they're just getting carried around with their parents. That's amazing. Love loons. When we agree that we're not going to get, like Trevor was pretty crazy.

This, this looks like a mess. It's called the yellow rumped warbler. Settophaga Coronaata. Corona. Yeah. And it looks unwell. It looks, it's got yellow on its top of its head, on its chin, on its arm, and then it's black, white, and gray. Yeah.

Yeah, warblers are a very bright group of birds. These are the songbirds that migrate up to Canada during the spring and summer months. And the yellow rump warblers is one of the first arrivals that come. So, yeah, they're actually here already. And so it's kind of a signal that, you know, all the songbirds that's, spring songbirds are coming. But yeah, this particular photo, the, the warbler is actually fluffing out its feathers. And it's like a slower shutter speed.

That's why it looks a little bit blurry. That I think it gives an impression of like motion to the bird. But yeah, very gorgeous little songbird. Yeah, their hands are quite different. Is there like a logic? Like, because some, I guess, go in the water more and some go in the water less. So how do they go about developing their hands? you mean the feet

sure yeah hands feet claws talons they don't have hands come on Aaron

it would be great though they did it would be very entertaining but yeah it depends the evolution of their feet depends on like what they're used for

so you know yellow rhump warblers and songbirds they have feet that are developed for perching so

that's typically why they're a little bit more skinny and they're just supposed to support the bird versus raptors that have like thicker legs and like talents or uh loons for example they have web feet and so helps them paddle through the water more um yeah so different adaptations that's crazy yeah it's just interesting to see like orange feet versus like black talents yeah yeah for sure oh these bard owls they've got me yeah they're beautiful i'm interested in these screech owls because you're saying that they're pretty cute too yeah I don't think I still have the photo of a screech all I had up there, but, um, yeah, beautiful.

A spotted tow he or a piplo macalatus. Mm-hmm. So spotted toys are, uh, common birds. How did I just say it? Tauhi, I think. No, that's totally fine. Like, I didn't know how to pronounce this properly before. Say it how you're supposed to say it?

Spotted to be. It's like, it's so not. It's so, like, English, it's, like, not my first language, which was I said? Oh, no. Okay. But, yeah, these are one of, like, the songbirds we have locally that, uh, they like to hide around bushes during the winter. Um, and they make, like, cat call sounds. It's very interesting.

Um. Cat call sounds. Yeah, they sound like the cats purring or, um. Yeah, the purr is a weird one, right? Like, uh, it's weird how cats are able to, like, make their purr. purring sounds. Yeah, it is. I think that there's something about it that's like, it's strange that they're able to do what they do.

Like, I don't think they have, like, they're not supposed to be able to pur, I don't think. It's something weird like that. It's a very, yeah, weird vocal. But don't trust me. I just pronounce it tau he. Let's see if this is the right one. Like that, like a purr. Wow.

Yeah, so you just hear that like around the bushes, and you can tell it's like a spotted to wee. Yeah, that is really interesting. They're so different. Yeah, birds make, yeah, I feel like birds' songs and calls are a whole different thing. Yeah, and something like you could spend a lot of time on, just focused on that. Yeah. There are people who just dedicate, you know, their bird in career is just collecting audio from songs and calls from the birds.

And that's why we have like a great library like this. Yeah. What does something make. Interesting. Yeah. So we're looking at Rufus here, Rufus the hummingbird, Rufus Hummingbird, or Salas Forus, Rufus. And it's a beautiful orange, bright orange.

How did you take this photo, man? Yeah, that's... This is crazy. Like, you have to go look at these photos because I just can't do them justice when I'm describing them with my terrible descriptions. Yeah, Rufus Hoverdds are one of those migrants that come up during disappearance.

summer months again, they're quite aggressive. They will chase, I've seen them chase robins around out of, you know, just because they're trying to establish a territory and they just chase robins around the forest and all these poor birds. They're quite small too, so it's kind of funny to see. But yeah, this photo I took when I found this Rufus Hummingbird, they have favorite purchase when they go into like a specific park or forest. They have select purchase that they like to rest in and sing from. And so I found this photogenic one with like moss and lichen at the end of it. And this Rufus hummingbird just perfectly chose this photogenic perch.

So I just set up my camera. And then whenever he'd come back every like 40 minutes, I try to take photos. So do you know that there's people out there that will set up like what looks like a natural environment and then put the animal in to take the photo to make it look like. the photos you're taking. Yes, for sure. That happens a lot with like feeder birds, for example. So they have like feeder set up and then next to the feeder, they have like really beautiful photogenic perches like this one. And so when the bird comes, they land on the perch. You take your photos and then they go to the feeder and then they fly away, right?

No, I'm talking about people who have like buildings. And they take like they, these are like not native, like they take the bird, put it in. like a container that looks natural to take the photos that you have. That's not good at all. Yeah, it's way more common than I realized. But like when you see like really cool photos of like certain bugs and stuff, oftentimes they're just taking that, putting it into like a container and making it look like the photos you're taking.

So I just want to give a huge credit that you're like out there waiting for this bird to land. And for people, for folks just listening, it's literally on a branch looking up with its chest. chin up. And it's just like, it's a picture perfect photo. And other people, like, if you go online, certain photos that you're going to see, you're going to be like, wow, that looks so natural. But behind the scenes, there's this big company that has the animal brought in to take that photo. And I didn't know that. And so I just want to shine light on the fact that you're out there with a camera hoping for the best. Yeah, for sure. And again, that's one of like my targets

with my photography, right? Like, I want to do it ethically. And I just got lucky that I found this Rufus Hummingbird perched on this beautiful photogenic branch. But otherwise, you know, it's not ethical at all to try to manipulate an environment just for your photo and for likes. And that's the problem is that like likes run so much of people's success online and they're willing to trade in their ethical responsibilities. Yeah. Oh, I just love these photos of these outlets. It's so cute. And one of your favorites is the Great Horn Outlaw.

Yes, that's correct. It's because when I was in Summerland, I found a nesting family of Great Horn. I was like five minutes away from the place I was renting at. And I spent almost every day just walking up that forest and just observing what they were doing. I think I got like two photos. I was like the whole summer, which was kind of, yeah, it's all right. But I learned so much about like their behavior and what they like to do. I learned that they have favorite purchase

I learned that you know the mother is always close by the chicks when they start fledging and things like that so definitely biased because of that because they spent a great deal of time just observing them with like a notebook and just writing down oh you know

the mom is facing this side of the canyon today and then she's on like this other tree today like the height and like where the chick is and things like that wow so you you take like real notes on these things yeah yeah Yeah, I find the notes very valuable because even just the process of writing it down, you know, it stills in your memory a little bit easier.

And yeah, I don't always walk away with a photo, but that's okay. I learn something else. That's so humble. So how long do you think it takes for you to, like, research something in comparison to going out and taking photos of it? Like, what is kind of that timeline for you? Yeah. research definitely takes a lot more than

photographing or subjects and depends on how like cryptic or elusive the subject is the more time you have to spend in the field actually looking for it right so there's lots of owl species that I would like to get photos up but I just haven't been able to find them because they're so difficult and yeah there's like unethical ways of doing it like you could use like the call of the owl to try

and attract it to you but I yeah again I don't want to disturb them that way like I want to find them naturally and just let them do their own thing and I'm just there to take a snapshot of their life yeah and you said you haven't been doing as much nature photography perhaps as you'd like yeah for sure um well I you know I work full time for birds Canada as well and yeah I just I only have like a couple hours a week where I can actually dedicate to like nature photography and you might not get a photo every week and so you have to try next week and the week after that and things like that is that a tough part like would you like if you could if you had a grant that just said you can take as many photos as you like spend all your days would that be what you'd rather

be doing um or do you like the work that you do i do love the work that i'm doing with birds canada like sharing my passion to others having like webinars and talking about birds and leading birdwalks and sharing the world of birds and the natural world to other people is very rewarding to me, especially since I grew up without it. And it's nice, really nice to see people like get excited over species that kind of passed over me like Anna's hummingbirds. You know, I've seen them forever and see somebody like, oh my gosh, you know, I've never seen a hummingbird up close. It's really rewarding. But also, yeah, just the fact that my style of nature photography just takes so much time. It'd be great to like have it.

to do it like in a semi-professional capacity and I'm hopefully working towards that as well. That's amazing. And so can you tell us about how you got started with Birds Canada and sort of the work that you do? Yeah. So about two summers ago, I applied to the job and this communications job that I'm in. And unfortunately, I didn't get it because I was going back to school and they wanted somebody a little bit more long term. but after that person kind of left and pursued their own career Brits Canada reached out to me again and be like, hey, you know, it's open now if you'd like to join us

and actually do this work and I was very enthusiasticly said yes, we'd be great but yeah, and I do like communications and outreach for them so lots of different forms of like article writing and photography, videography reviewing, editing, writing, and social media and things like that. Oh, interesting. Can you tell us about the tours that you do and some of the spots that you go to?

Yeah, so I also lead birdwalks with, mainly with the BC Bird Trail. So that is with BC Bird Trail and Stanley Park Ecology Society. And so that's around Stanley Park and just around the lower mainline in general. and it's great to just kind of invite people to go birding and the the video that you mentioned a while ago was with this program with Stanley Park Ecology Society called Birding with me and it's basically an idea or an activity

where people of like a shared identity kind of go out together and with like an expert birder from their community as well to like lead these birdwalks and provide, like, these opportunities in nature that otherwise wouldn't be there. Interesting. And so you said Stanley Park and then the spot I think you were at was Blacky Spitt. Yes. Can you tell us about, like, what people would expect to see in those two locations?

Mm-hmm. So those are quite different locations. So Stanley Park is more of like a coastal, rocky intertidal sort of area, some deciduous forest around, some evergreens around there. And then Blacky Spit is definitely more of like a sandy beach sort of. habitat and more deciduous. So different variation in the birds. Like there's definitely more marine ducks out at Stanley Park during the winter and then there's more like songbirds and woodpeckers around Blackyspit. Interesting. Do you have a preference? My grandmother loved Blackyspit.

So I'm just curious as to what do you think she saw in Blackyspit? It's very accessible. So you know, it's great to have a place where you don't have to hike like 20 kilometers. up a steep hill just to go birding, right? It's very vibrant. There's lots of people there you can talk to and, you know, share your passion about birds and lots of diversity in the habitat as well. So with diverse habitats that attracts lots of different kinds of species. Interesting. And so where do you hope to go sort of in the future? Do you have like an idea of if you have your way where things would go over time? Yeah. I'm not entirely sure on that because I currently enjoy my work with Birds Canada

and yeah just being able to do photography in like a semi-professional capacity that is something I'm working towards and like having mentorship or selling prints to coffee shops that sort of things would be great yeah instead of you know just having my photos live on like a drive or just social media actually making some sort of income out of it

that's what I was going to ask how do you go about taking these amazing photos that you have and making sure that they reach people in a way that they can be proud to own a Chris Koo original. Yeah, for sure. I think, you know, with some of the photos I have, I haven't really seen too many of like that specific stuff. For example, like the backlit bittern.

Like if you search up American Bittern on like Google or something, like I don't think I've ever seen a photo quite like that. So having unique photos like that definitely helps and having recognitions as well from photo competitions help. Interesting. So like are you working towards a. where people can go online and buy your prints and stuff like that yeah definitely um that's something down the line interesting and so how does that sort of work like what is the process to set

or are you not there yet i'm not there yet um but i'm just yeah setting up the website and i think mentorships are going to be the first one that are mentorships so there's a lot of like beginner photographers who would like to know who would like to learn the camera or like to know more about birding and I feel like I have something to impart to that and something to teach them and educate them about. So, yeah, having a couple students like, you know, mentoring them into their goals, into what they would like to see with their photo, their personal photographs and photography. I was going to ask if you've thought about it all, and I know I bugged you over the books and the podcast, but the person I just had on, his name's Tim Srigley, and he has a

YouTube channel on how to do leather work. And he's, I think he's already got something like 4,000 subscribers. And all he does is he does, like, tips and tricks on this. And then he does another video. And it seems like the way that he's chosen, so there's two ways you can go from what he explained with YouTube. The one route is a partnership where they put ads on your videos. But the other way is Amazon affiliate marketing, which is like you tell people where to go find

this tool, this thing. Yeah, link to gears. exactly and you can make money through that as well it just seems like you have a lot of knowledge to share with people on how to bird the the ethics of it like you'd have endless amounts of videos on how to bird the process for photography like you can you can take it so many different ways that people would be learning from you and you would have that that revenue coming in on and so i'm just interested have you thought about that or is that something that interests you long term because your instagram videos if for people just listening go subscribe go follow this person on instagram i'm getting my words go follow him on instagram because his videos are so like it's so unique to know somebody who's doing what you're doing and i just um i admire people like yourself yeah thank you um yeah definitely thought about youtube um the one thing that's kind of keeping me from doing it it's like the cost it's like oh it's like a whole new setup with like a tripod or like another camera i only have

one camera and like one wildlife lens that's the only one i take um so it's like this whole different setup um but yeah definitely something i've thought about and uh something i could share with other people people have definitely asked me like hey you should do youtube and like uh yes yeah i just see such value in like because then you're building up that community and you seem to be somebody who wants to share not only like hey buy this camera but hey do it in this way and like that there's like there's wisdom tied into the like it's intelligence of explaining which camera to use how to use it, but it's a wisdom of like, this is how you do this in the right way. Yeah, for sure. And yeah, people typically say,

like, gear doesn't matter when it comes to, like, things like this. I'm like, of course it does. If gear doesn't matter, we'll be shooting with, like, entry-level cameras. But gear matters to an extent. So I don't have the latest and greatest gear, but I've learned to, like, work around the limitations of my gear. And so I think anybody can do that with the setup that you have. And yeah, the more you master your camera, the more you're able to work through, like, the shortcomings of it. Absolutely.

Well, if there's anything I can do to support you starting a YouTube channel, please let me know because I really admire and I would be a watcher. I would enjoy those videos because I think there's so, like we've learned so much in this conversation. Would you mind telling people how they can find you on social media? Yeah, for sure. I'm on Instagram, and that's at chris.com, so k-r-is-t-c-U. And for Twitter, I'm at Chrisku, so there's K-R-I-S-C-U.

And Birds Canada, how can people connect with that? Birds Canada, you can visit birdscannada.org. And your website? And my website is chris-coo.com, so, yeah, quite straightforward. Okay, get ready, because I really hope he starts releasing his photos for people to be able to purchase and support because I think what you're doing is so much fun. I think I've learned so much about this. I'm always excited to be humbled and be reminded.

I know very little about this world. And so when I sit down with someone who's enthusiastic, I think that that's something, again, unique. Perhaps I don't know if it's common in the burden community, but people aren't excited to tell you about what they know. And you definitely bring that energy. No, thank you so much for having me. And yeah, it's very eye-opening and, yeah, really engaging conversation. Awesome. And we just did three hours and ten minutes or so?

Nice. There we go. Right on time. Awesome. Thank you so much.