Nuanced. - 7. Anouk Crawford: Family Lawyer & Business Owner

Episode Date: August 5, 2020

Anouk Crawford is a family lawyer who runs Vale Family Law and Mediation in Chilliwack, BC. As a family lawyer, she has significant experience working with families coping with depression, anger and high-conflict separation. Anouk and I discuss  Anouk's background, current events, family law, separation, domestic violence, Vale Family Law, and Anouk's service to the community. For more information about Anouk please visit their website at:https://www.valefamilylawandmediation.com/about-us/Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/valefamilylawandmediationAlternatively, you can follow her on LinkedIn at:https://www.linkedin.com/in/anouk-crawford-8ab19bb9/Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/valefamilylawandmediation/Join the Bigger Than Me Community:https://www.facebook.com/groups/3089667531069809Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=35374462&fan_landing=true)Send us a textSupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Hello, friends, and thank you for tuning into the show. My guest today is lead council at Vail Family Law and Mediation in Chilawak, BC. She has traveled all over the world. She has a unique experience and a very unique childhood. This was a great conversation. We talked about current events, family law, domestic violence, the business of law. Without further ado, please welcome my guest today. Anuk Crawford.

And we're live. It's absolutely a pleasure to have you here. You are a family lawyer. I am hoping you can share a bit about yourself just to start us off. I'm happy to do that. And it's so nice to be here with you, Erin. Just fantastic. So do you want a bit of my background?

Yes, please. Okay. So it was a long and winding road. for me to get to Chilawak. I was raised in an international context. So my dad was a civilian for the U.S. military. And my mom and dad met in Europe and Italy. So I spent like my first seven years there. And then was in eastern Canada for a little bit. Then I was in, I was in B.C. for a few years. And then in my teenage years, I was sort of island hopping between Korea and Japan. And I'd come back here for summer. So I lived in the south of South Korea, north of South Korea, northern Japan. And then

quickly, it was, you know, Vancouver, Burnaby, Edmonton, Calgary. And then I came here to Chilliwack 14 years ago. Longest I've lived anywhere. Wow. Okay. I know you didn't expect that answer. I did not expect that answer. Yeah. Why? Why all the sort of moving around? Yeah, your whole life. Yeah, my dad was a civilian for the U.S. military, and he was actually a teacher and a high school counselor. And when the U.S. military builds large bases, they build schools on those bases. And so they need their teachers. And so that's how I ended up with that really crazy, good, good life. Like, it wasn't easy, but being in that context made all the hard stuff okay. Wow, that is the ultimate role model. Yeah, I mean, I really learned, I really learned an identity as a citizen of the world. And so what happens in South Korea matters to us. What happens in Japan matters to us. What's happening in the U.S. matters to us so much. And so that was an amazing playground for a youth in a way, but also just to, you know, that in the high school newspaper, the annual talks at the DMZ would be reported on by one of my classmates. You know, the that was a really great way to grow. What can you say, right? I can't imagine what that would be like. What were some of the things you ran into growing up in that environment? Well, you know, I lived in the south of South Korea in a beautiful Oceanside community called Pusan, now formerly renamed Busan,

before the Olympics, right? So this was mid-80s. And girls with blonde hair and blue eyes were pretty rare. And I learned, I had to learn patience. And sometimes people were incredibly gracious to me. And it wasn't merited. It was because of my whiteness. And sometimes people were really harsh. I remember being in a market and a woman was bouncing my curls. And then somebody stepped in to touch my eyeball. And that was my limit. But I learned a lot in that. I remember when I lived in Seoul. So this is northern in South Korea. And I was walking to the subway. I was by myself. And I was about 16. So I looked about 12. And something hit me on the head. And I looked around and it was the heavy end of a broom, the big plastic thing. And some kids had thrown it off the roof at me. And I just thought, well,

okay, they threw it at me because I'm white. And I just need to accept that, right? It's complex politics. Another time I was on the subway and a man started yelling at me. And I thought, Oh, man, I don't know enough Korean, or we call it Hangul. I don't know enough Hangul to say, I hear you're angry, and I'm really sorry, you're angry. I swear I had nothing to do with any American Korean or international policy. And, you know, even in the hard situations, I think there's really great invitations for kindness, because another man stepped in and basically, I got the gist of what he was saying. Like, you're yelling at a kid. Why are you yelling at a kid? I mean, come on. What is what is, what is you? she have to do with any of this. So it was a really great life. It wasn't easy. My father, so when I lived in Canada, I'd live with my mom. When I lived overseas, I'd live with my dad. And my dad was a very violent alcoholic. And I think actually it's really important for us in our imperfections to be super honest about that, right? Because it helps us to consider that all of us suffer. So he was a very violent, alcoholic. But around me, I had this amazing life outside of that. And so I had great

friends with really stable homes. I was in volleyball. And there, I mean, there, if you were on the volleyball team, every year, you're going for two weeks to tropical Okinawa, Japan, to do two weeks of volleyball with people from Korea, Japan, Guam, the Philippines. And so I focused on the good. And I had teachers who loved me. And I was really good at choosing friends. whose families loved me well, so it was great. A good balancing act between the two relationships, it sounds like. Yeah, because the lack of stability I had was made up for the stability that everybody else provided for me so that it was still a great life and that I felt valued and I had

a place to go. And, you know, I mean, our schooling experience was exceptional and I'd go to stay at friends' houses on the weekend. And, you know, one mom always had Hawaiian punch in the fridge because she knew I'd get sick from the bus ride and stay with friends at Christmas. And it's, you know, I wouldn't trade it. Like if somebody said, oh, if you could give up the violent alcoholic dad and not have the life you had, I wouldn't, I wouldn't trade it. I think it gave me a lot of compassion and drive. Yeah, I absolutely understand that because my life experiences have been very unique and sometimes very difficult, but it's how you overcome them. It's not about trying to find a way

that they didn't happen at all. Exactly. You know, once when I was, I've met one person in my life who really hadn't had any suffering. And I realized that the absence of suffering in their life was actually a detriment to them because they had no way to connect on, just on a humble, compassionate human level with another person about what they were going through because their life had just been super easy. So I'm not advocating that we become cruel parents. I'm not advocating. We look for suffering, but it can be an incredible lesson and a good lesson. Absolutely. It helps you grow those roots with other people to be able to share your experiences or process that with somebody else and have your back and show that they're there for you. That strengthens your relationship with those other

people, those people who are helping you so you could go to other houses. Absolutely. And those are friendships I have today. I was just talking with my friend Lynette last month who, when I was 15 and living in Japan, her family was my family. And we were laughing about how I'd gone back the next year to visit for Christmas. And I stayed with them for two weeks. And they're an African American family. And I went to their like big community Christmas. And I was the only white person there. And a few people were looking at me like, why are you here? And her dad just stepped in and said, she's in our family. She's our daughter. And I thought, that's really nice.

And you carry those relationships for your life, right? Absolutely. How do you set that against the backdrop of kind of what's going on right now? Because there's a lot of discussions going on around racism. And what is your perspective based on having such a unique experience? You know, she and I were talking about that, actually. And when we grew up, when I think we were sheltered from, some of it because of our gender, because we were female. And we were just all in it together.

And so, you know, she and I were talking about just this such deep discord in the United States. And I mean, what can I say about Trump that hasn't already been said? And how he feels that. I mean, what can we say about police organizations that when you watch dash cam footage, it makes no sense. somebody ended up dead at the end of that. Though I also wouldn't wish to be a police officer, you know, the burdens of their work. I have absolutely no wisdom on it, Aaron, and I deeply ache. You know, for me, the states is pick a state, pick a friend, like, because I have friends all over the states, and I have a sister that lives there, and her husband is not white.

And, you know, what they've seen is that since Trump's been elected, there's just, there's so much more freedom for people to express their hate rather than, rather than critique it. Yeah. And that's so deeply troubling, you know, in the protests that are going on in Portland every day. And on one hand, that colliding with COVID, it's just, I don't think those protesters are being reckless. You know, I think they're saying everybody, everybody's life should have enough meaning that you have a hill to die on. And that's the hill they're prepared to die on. And so for all those peaceful protesters, man, that's tremendous courage.

Absolutely. And the police having to go out there and trying to prevent any violence is also equally, some of them aren't great, but there are some out there just trying to maintain peace. Just trying to maintain peace. I completely, I completely agree with you. Actually, my sister works for the Oregon Police Department in their administration. and I just, you know, I know that she works with good people, and actually none of us are perfect. I don't think most of the people out there are looking to commit violence, but for the ones that are, they sure are creating risk for so many others, right, who are taking these pivotal stands and saying, yeah, I totally get why they're saying Black Lives Matter, because for so many, it hasn't, and that's astounding.

Yeah, absolutely. And this has been going on protests and stances against this since before Martin Luther King. And it continues. Yes. Yeah. It's, you know, the Southern United States is so unique and so beautiful and so different. And, yeah, their dialogues on difference are really, they're troubling, you know. Though at the same time, I appreciate that they have those overt dialogues rather than the nicely nicey-nice dialogues that we have here. I mean, sometimes just call a spade a spade and let's put it out on the table and talk really frankly about it so we can heal our wounds. But yeah. That's an interesting thing that I'll put myself at risk for and say something is during, I don't know if you remember before COVID, there were indigenous people taking up protesting and taking. stances against things. And what I noticed was there was a lot of accusations that there were racist people calling the indigenous people who were protesting names. And one thing that I kind

of pulled out of that was I didn't think those people were actually racist. Do you think they were being ignorant? Yes. I think that when you see a big group of people that isn't you, you call them whatever name you're thinking of in that moment that fits that category. And it just so happened they were indigenous and horrible names were said. But that doesn't make the people who said them automatically racist, because to me, that person would have to think those things year round in order for me to deem them as racist individuals. To say it in the heat of the moment when somebody's in your way driving to work is different

than having that stance all the time. Yeah, I think that there's, I think there's value in us talking about the reality of our ignorance and our ignorances and also moving that. that further and saying, my ignorance may actually cause you harm. And my not intending that harm doesn't change that harm. But do I just deem you a hateful person in that? You know, the closest I have to that is, well, when obviously being a woman, you know, people say that women, when they move into their 40s towards their 50s, they become invisible. And I agree with that. And I've quite enjoyed it. Because when I was younger, I got all sorts of unwanted attention that made me

feel unsafe, that I didn't invite, that I didn't ask for, and I didn't deserve. But I think you're right. If I look at those men, do I think they're misogynist? Yeah. But do I think they even realize they're misogynist? No, would it help me to pin them as hateful, terrible people? I don't think that's actually going to help create the bridge, you know, particularly when I look at the Me Too movement that gained so much traction. You know, a lot of us, you know, from second wave feminism in the 80s and 90s are like, really? Everybody's figuring this out now. But we're still glad that the conversation's happening, you know, and yeah, I think, but then how do we bring people, Aaron, to the table to have a dialogue about their ignorances? How do we do that?

I've seen a lot more problems arising. I just recently was told on social media that I can't have a position on whether on feminism because I'm a male and that I can understand racism because I'm indigenous but white people can understand racism. And those things concern me because I think they stop the conversation. I absolutely agree with you. I think we need to make a space for us to talk about what you think feminism is. If you think you're a feminist and what you think about the status of women, white, non-white, indigenous, African, Asian, in Canada to date. And we actually have to have those dialogues if where we're going to, which is I think where we're at right now, if we stay here in this broader social dialogue of I'm female so I can

talk about being female and you can't talk about it, I think it really limits our conversation because you have a mother, you were raised by a single mother, and you saw her struggles and you've seen her triumphs. And that has informed you as a man. And certainly as a mom of a son, I want my son to grow, to be thoughtful, to be aware, to be curious, and to have dialogues in the spaces that are deeply uncomfortable. Absolutely. Super important for us. And if we can shift that, we will have, I think, a healthier community overall. I absolutely agree. One thing that I run into a lot is having a partner and having her even just run inside or run to the grocery store and I'm sitting in the car and I'm watching her.

And having other guys check her out makes me uncomfortable. Like, I don't appreciate those men. I'm not supporting that approach. I think that that's heinous. Like, I don't think, I think it makes people feel uncomfortable. It does make you feel very unsafe. And I'm on the side. of females that I think that there needs to be a conversation about how do we address that in

like a concrete way? Because telling men don't do that doesn't seem to, I've said it, I've said it right to their face and it doesn't seem to register as I'm going to change my behavior. So we need to figure out what will. Yes, yes. And I think engaging men in the conversation about what is it for young women today in this society to be young women, what helps them to feel safe, valued and a full part of the community and what doesn't, then helps you engage with other men. Absolutely. So it's really important.

You and I having a conversation about racism, about indigenous experience, about being an indigenous law student. It's really important for us to do that. One, to have those dialogues, build understanding, but then we're both chatty people. I'm going to go and say, I had this really great conversation with Aaron,

and have you guys concerned? these issues for your law firm. And if I can't engage in the dialogue, then I don't have permission to ask my questions, which will sometimes be stupid. Yeah. And that you trust that on the whole. There's good faith. That there is good faith and that I want to reach out and I want to be in a shared good space with you. I think that's going to get us so much further than I think what you younger people are calling today cancel culture. Absolutely. Cancel culture. They make a point, but we actually don't have a complex dialogue and conflict, and I think we've actually lost ability to have civilized conflict. I agree. Even we went kayaking the other day,

and on the tour they were talking about how the indigenous community used to plan things 100 years in advance, and a lot of cultures used to look that far in advance. Like, think of the pyramids. They obviously took a very long time to build. It wasn't within one person's lifetime. But everything is revolved around one person's lifetime today in a way that it wasn't so long ago. Yeah, it's, I mean, we're on much more rapid cycles and people aren't, our attention spans aren't what they were. But if it's just, I disagree with you. And in my gender in this dialogue, I have the authority to shut you down. And if you continue to try and engage with me, you are somehow the oppressor, it's highly, highly problematic. And I think we're going to see those

impacts in law we do we do we see it in the family law fights and and just we actually have this pervasive inability to engage in conflict while supporting one another's dignity like that if we can shift that as a community we will be better off exponentially let's get into it then because one of the interesting we'll start with family sure and let's hear a little bit more about what your upbringing was like in terms of going through those experiences Sure. Yeah. I mean, it was extremely high, high conflict. And, you know, hence my mom left when I was seven and brought us to Canada. And then I went to live with my dad at 13. But I definitely learned a lot about conflict. Interestingly, you know, my dad was, he was a very intelligent person. He had a very compassionate heart. And he was very open to having dialogue. I think that was unconventional in those times probably still with a teenager. You know, I was Okay to swear. It was okay to speak my mind. Really, the only thing I wasn't allowed to do was skip school and smoke cigarettes. So I smoked cigarettes, but I didn't skip school. And where was I going to go

on a military base, you know, to the Burger King down the street where they can say, oh, one of your students is at the Burger King, you know? But it really, I think when you're young, you choose how you're going to deal with conflict. And I think part of it is innate. And I'm not an appeaser. I'm not. And so it really primed me to stand up to the bully. And so my fight or flight is pretty much 98% fight. That does not come through through your very, very kind voice. Right, but I don't need to be, I don't need to be aggressive in my voice. And in fact, if I'm aggressive in my voice, you will stop listening to my words. You will focus on my tone and wonder what the heck is going on. And remember when I was on the Adoption Council of British Columbia, so it was years ago.

And someone gave me, they said this to me and I've never forgotten. He said, you know, you have the voice of a mouse and the words of a lion. And I thought, I'll take that. I'll take that. It's better than the other way around. But yeah, I mean, what can you say about growing up with a violent alcoholic, right? Like you become resilient or you don't. And I was really lucky to be a resilient kid looking back.

I look at the little five-year-old me. And I'm like, ah, you were really badass. You were such a confident little kid. And you knew your worth at five. You knew your worth at 15. You knew your worth. And because that worth was challenged. And honestly, the universe was so gracious to me

and dropped teachers into my life. that were inspiring and gave me their time and good friends. And so yeah, I was an upstart then too, you know, but I was given this great environment to be nurtured in by others. And I was prepared to accept that from others. And that made all the difference. What on earth do you call that? Because that seems to be a running theme is that people are placed in the most hellish of circumstances and then given the resources to cope and survive and then thrive. It's resilience. That's what they would call it in psychology, is resilience that you're given an opportunity

instead of setting it on fire, you nurture it. But that I had Mrs. McDade when I was in grade 10, my French teacher, who agreed to be the teacher rep for the spring volleyball so I could play volleyball in the spring because she knew how much I loved it. And she said yes, even though she had a home to run two kids, a full-time job. She saw my worth. And Mr. Babcock in grade 12, was grade 12, grade 11. I intentionally cheated on a biology exam. I don't know if the law society knows that now. They can call me about it. We can talk about it. I intentionally cheated. I looked back after and I thought, oh, this is why I did it. I don't know why I did it at the time. And he said, you can go tell your dad or I can tell

dad. I said, I'll tell my dad. And I realized in getting my dad's response, said, oh, I cheated on this exam, this test. And he said, well, now I'm going to be in trouble. And I thought, as soon as he said it, I realized my intention. My intention was to try and have his attention to say, do you see that I'm really suffering with your decisions? And I saw that my action didn't work. And you know what? Mr. Babcock gave me another chance and didn't hold that over me, didn't think I was a failure, and this is going to sound terrible, but we had to dissect cats the next quarter. It sounds terrible. This is what we do. I had to dissect cats. Sorry, cat lovers. Where was this? This was at my high school in Seoul. If anybody wants to start a protest, you can't because you can't fly to

soul right now because of COVID. Sorry. And I don't even know if that school's there anymore. But I did an exceptional job. And he celebrated those successes and didn't hold my misstep over me. And, you know, I remember a grade 12 teacher who kicked me out of AP English because I wouldn't smile pretty for her the day she told me to smile pretty. Yeah, that look, that was my look, except mine was more angry. And I just thought, screw you. And I didn't.

And so she kicked me out of her class. And she had to talk with me later, basically saying, I don't think you're going to make it in life. I don't, like, I really worry about you. And I've never forgotten that. And then when I went to college, I thought, oh, she really thinks I'm going to be a failure. And I finally figured out how to study and did well. I thought of her with every A-plus, with every scholarship I got.

I thought of her. And I thought, you were so wrong. And even that was a defining moment. Because I was an upstart, I just thought, I'll show you. It's so interesting that we need doubters, because I do know exactly what you're talking about. I had a high school teacher, and she brought my mom in for one of those parents. teacher conferences and looked at me and my mom and said, I think your son has narcissistic personality disorder. That's really cruel. And that I don't think he's going to succeed. I don't

think he's on the right track. And having other faculty, the counselor at the school and the principal take my side, even though my mom being incredibly vulnerable, is trying to touch or trust the authority that's saying this person has this problem. And I started a podcast about role models and other people doing good in the community. And it's crazy that I've never forgotten what she said. I've never forgotten the position she took on who I am. And I've done everything I can to show her that that wasn't the case and you were wrong. And when you look back, do you see that she was interpreting your inherent self-worth as arrogance and self-centeredness? Like if you look back, Do you say, you know what, actually, there was a part of me that knew I was worth it.

There was a part of me that knew my voice was valid. And that was the part that she was trying to demean. Absolutely. It's very much like what you were going through in thinking, like, wow, this five-year-old kid handled this tough circumstance. I knew that I was being resilient. I knew that other kids weren't living the life when I got home. We weren't living the same reality. And so I knew that I was going through way more than she realized and trying to keep a straight face at school

and trying to fit in. And so her thinking that that was all fake and that I might have had a great life. That wasn't the case. I was trying to survive. Yeah. You know, I had a teacher once have me do a report on Jesse Stewart.

And I was really resentful to her at the time. Mrs. Arms, she was lovely. And I said, I want to do the report on what meant. She said, do a report on Jesse Stewart. I really believe this will be right. And she was right. and his writing has stayed with me throughout my life. So this was over 30 years ago that I did this report.

Jesse Stewart was a teacher in the foothills of Kentucky to some of the poorest students in the country. And he wrote that teaching is the most important profession because from that one profession stems all others. And he's absolutely right when I think of Mrs. McDade who lifted me. up, Mrs. Arms, who lifted me up, their deep belief in me stayed with me long after we parted ways. And the teacher who said, you're really not worthwhile, that lit the fire. And those other positive voices softened that like sort of forecast of doom for life, right? So Jesse Stewart was right. Teaching is the most important profession. Absolutely. What was it like having your mom in Canada and then going to see your dad? What was that relationship like with your mom?

Well, you know, it wasn't in the days of text messaging and Facebook. So I wouldn't see my mom for 10 months. And sometimes I wouldn't see my sister for 10 months. So we would write letters. I still write letters to this day to people in my family that are far away. and sometimes near. And, you know, I'm by nature an introvert, and the life they unintentionally gave me made my life bigger, right? I mean, I remember the first time flying internationally by myself, I was 14, and flying to Japan and getting to Narita Airport and thinking,

I really don't know what I'm supposed to. to be doing right now, and I just faked it. And I said to myself, you're just going to fake it and you're going to make it look like you know what you're doing. Because I had to go to another airport to get to the small community I was going to. I had to find my hotel. And so all of those things. No Google Maps. There was no Google Maps. I spoke. No Japanese. I remember the first time my sister and I went to Korea, we didn't have the proper visas and they had us in this little office and they're like you can't be here you don't have the right piece and we're like well we're here what would you what would you like us to do we don't know to fix this problem yeah so um

you know it worked better it worked better with my mom on one side of the world my dad on the other and and having the time with them that I did even though my dad was a violent alcoholic the rest of my life was really supported I had volleyball I had good friends and and I changed school sometimes every year. And that was a great lesson. It was a great lesson that you can make different decisions on who you're going to be and that you can actually just make that change one day and that change can be authentic. It was a great lesson in loss. I remember leaving Japan and my dad saying, we're going to move. And I said, I'm never going to forgive you for this. This is the worst move ever and you know these people are my family and how can you make this happen and in hindsight it

was really good that I left and the people who were my family are still my family you know um yeah and then and then you you have friends everywhere and and uh yeah it was it was good i mean it was super unconventional but i look at the work i do now and i think wow um if my parents had been in the same community that would have been a disaster i would have been going to back and forth, and that's not something I would have liked. And so I would come back to Canada for two months in the summer. And then I'd go back to Korea or Japan or wherever that was. And those experiences were like out of this world. Like in Japan, we were in northern Japan and Masawa, where they get lots and lots of snow. And it was in Air Force Base. And I could look out

the tiny window. It was about this big. And at the top of the stairs in our little townhouse that I shared with my dad, and these fighter jets would be flying by, and every day you got to feel it in your chest when they broke the sound barrier. It was really beautiful, you know, grade 10 algebra. The teacher would be driven crazy because the, I think they're called the Blue Angels. They were coming to do a show, right, to keep morale up, but they need to practice in their airspace. And so they'd actually zip by our classroom, and we're all looking outside and These jets are roaring, so we don't care about X in the equation. We care about those fighter jets because they were beautiful.

I mean, just objectively, they're beautiful. I mean, I might have a more complex opinion on U.S. military as a whole. But those were phenomenal experiences, you know, like I remember one day, so a bunch of my friends lived in a different smaller community in Korea when I lived in Seoul. so for half of grade 11 and grade 12, said they lived outside of Seoul and I lived in Seoul. And I asked my friend Laura, I whispered in your ear, do you have 100 Wan? So Juan is Korean money.

And it's about equivalent to 10 American cents. And I didn't have money, right? So if your parent has money and you don't have money, you don't have money. And she said, no. And my friend Shane, he's a very sweet guy, I said, well, I can give you money for the bus. And I was just mortified. I was mortified that I didn't have money.

I was like, no, I'm fine, thanks. And so I had to walk across Seoul to get home. And it was like a two and a half hour walk. And it was a fabulous adventure. I actually didn't know which way to go. Like, I'm like, okay, I'm here and I know my home is sort of over there. But, you know, Seoul is like a mismatch of streets. It's kind of like Chilliwack in that way because Chilwick Street navigation is a bit crazy.

and and I made it and it was fun and and you know sometimes it'd be like okay that university students trying to talk to me I don't want to do that or I remember coming around on the bus at Shinshan Rotary so think of our traffic circles here so think of that like 10 times bigger and there's no circle in the middle but everybody just knows where they need to go all the cars right it's crazy so the bus comes into the circle Shinshan Rotary, and we go around the corner, and there's a university protest. And we used to say in Seoul in those days, if it's good weather, there's going to be a protest. And those students had things to protest.

And the students were really the only ones who could protest. If you were employed and you were protesting, you're going to lose your job, right? And they had Molotov cocktails, and I was the only white girl on the bus. And I thought, okay, what do I do here? Do I leave my bag? Do I jump over the bus driver and, like, run? And I'm like, they're going to be faster than me. And I got through it fine, you know.

But those were actually strange and important things to have to consider at that age. They were really valuable to me. Wow. They were great. You agreed to go back to your dad despite knowing that you would be facing those things. Yeah, because I had a lot of conflict with my mom. And so I kind of thought that. living with an alcoholic who's sometimes violent is better than day-to-day conflict. That does not seem like it would fly by anybody's, like, thinking.

It was a good choice. But nobody would be allowed to say that now, that you could succeed in that circumstance. Yeah, I mean, I think if my family had come under the lens of MCFD, my sister and I both would have been in foster care, and we would not have been better for it. Wow, that is a big statement when you think about what you were going through and choosing to go to that. Yes. It sounds like every interaction you've had, whether it's taking an airplane or going back to see your dad or having to get a cross-soul, you're always willing to face adversity, face the unknown and continue through it. Yeah.

Yeah. And they tell me that, right? Yeah. Because I'm very much an introvert. My parents had a sailboat when I was a kid and I hated it. I mean, I cannot express to you how much I hated it. And they were very skilled at sailing, so we would be out on the ocean for two weeks. And sometimes all you'd see is water. And I understood, even at four, the vastness of what was below me.

And we would be in treacherous storms. And my parents did what they needed to do, which was keep us all afloat. What they couldn't do was comfort their four-year-old and their five-year-old. And good choice, right? Because nobody went down with the ship because the ship didn't go down. But I hated that sailboat. I hated getting on that sailboat because. there would be a storm. I mean, that's just inevitable, just like we get rain here, you know,

and we get wind here, except you're on a tiny little boat in the middle of frickin' nowhere. And so do I ever want to go on a sailboat again? No. But I am glad that they just made me do these things. Wow. Because it just made my life bigger. And it really helped me to be able to connect with people. let's get into that because you went through your parents separated obviously you went through that you lived that life now you help people through it let's start off with you got a degree in psychology honors is my understanding yes so fun and so did you know then that you wanted to take advantage of that knowledge of how people work and go into i didn't have that insight you know i think one of the

things that's sort of like the, that results from living the life I did is you kind of fly by the seat of your pants. And that's, that's fine. No, I didn't know. You know, I ended up in law. Psychology was very easy for me. And I love it. I love psychology. I should have just stayed in psychology. But I didn't think I was smart. Okay. I did not think I was smart. I mean, I look back and I'm like, you were really smart. But I didn't know. that and pardon me law seemed like an impossible challenge I had two friends for two years in a row one went off to law school and the other one off to law school I'm like you guys are doing it sure I'll do that too and I thought well you know if they let me in maybe I'm smart so they let me

in they give me a scholarship thanks for that maybe if you let me stay I'm smart they let me stay maybe if I graduate I'm smart okay maybe if they let me into the bar I'm smart so it was like really expensive therapy to figure out that I was smart. You know, I look back and I'm like, what a ridiculous proposition. All the evidence pointed to that you were smart, but still, I'm like, oh, well, I was raised a Francophone Catholic, so, you know, we shame ourselves regularly. Yeah. Wow. It's part of our cultural existential experience. So, no, I didn't know. So I just, I just happened to go into law. It wasn't part of a ground plan. And I thought, oh, all these other people, you know, they have like political

science majors or I just thought other people had degrees that were better suited, but in fact, psychology was perfect. Wow. So what was going to Simon Fraser University like in comparison to going all the way to Alberta? I really liked SFU. You know, I think they were really forward thinking. I remember going to one of my professors, Professor Ogloff, I think his name was, and saying, I found this research. It was really poorly constructed. I'd like to, try and improve on it. Okay, let's do that. You know, for my thesis, I'd really like to do qualitative research on the longitudinal experience of women who lose children in adoption. Okay, how will you structure that? And so it was a really great way to have psychology be

meaningful. I think UBC has long been known as more of the traditionalist, whereas in my degree, I focused largely on women, motherhood, and madness. And as nuts as that seems, it's so incredibly relevant that the history of how women are constructed as mad in society and mother as the other in our society. And it's actually all really relevant. So I loved that I had the freedom and the invitation to be curious and novel in my approach and that was really well supported and then I ended up why did I end up going to you of a because moving is in my blood right yeah had a whole life of moving and I'd been in

BC for a few years and I'm like well sure I'll go somewhere I've never been before I mean that's how I ended up back in Chilliwack and I really liked you of a I thought um I thought that they had um i i never thought of a law school as as a healthy social experience i did not enjoy it but i knew that it was healthier than others and um i could again um do focus on interesting topics i when i was in third year i wrote a paper with a first year and a second year on what are the chart of privacy rates for sex trade workers on the street who have nowhere to go? Is there some level of privacy that they can expect in their lives if we consider privacy

from the perspective as an essential component to our emotional wellness, to our psychological wellness? All of us need to have some aspect of privacy in our lives. And what did you get out of that research? Oh, gosh, that was so long ago, Aaron, I can't remember. Okay. I can't remember. But it was really, it was really interesting. And my dad, my dad passed away in my third year of law school. And teachers were really, the professors were really supportive. And I had classmates who were really supportive and recorded all of the classes that I missed. And I had to make up in the last semester what I had missed. But, you know, I had professors saying to me, you know, law school isn't everything. It's just something. And, and, I and other things are always going to be more important.

And I appreciated that message because law really indoctrinate you into this thought that law is the most important thing in your life. And even when you practice, that's really hard to get away from. I agree because the communities start to build. And then there seems to be this movement away from talking to people outside of the law field. And I appreciate that both you and Kevin understand that there's an importance in, having relationships outside of that. Super, it's super important. And it's actually really important that we actively step off the pedestals,

pedestals that we're invited to have and say, actually, law is my job. It's not who I am. My wins are not who I am and my losses are not who I am. It's hard to accept when you have a loss, like if you have to go to court. But it's actually the truth. I think we really need to take the shape. shine off of the plaque that says lawyer and say, it is, it's just my job. And not that I don't value it, not that it's not important to the clients that I have, but that it shouldn't feed any

aspect of our egos. That's really damaging. I agree. And I think that we're starting to wake up to that more and more. And I'm seeing more awareness that law is just a tool to be used. But it does, being in a law school itself, it is, you don't talk about any other topics. You don't talk about what's going on in the biology department. Like, you're not thinking of anything else other than the interpretation of the law and the words you're reading in the book. And so I think that's really interesting. Could you give us a little bit of an understanding of how you got, so you went to law school, you had a psych degree, you had experience in separation, and now you're a family lawyer. Yeah, I remember having a conversation with lovely Joanne Van Dale, and

And she, you know, of course, because, you know, Edmonton, there's going to be lots of classes on oil and gas and tax. And I remember saying to her, how can you choose to be a tax lawyer? Like, I just thought I'd pull my teeth out with any painkiller before I'd do that. Now, strangely, I find tax interesting. And she said, how could you be a family law lawyer? And at the end of the day, we all pick our poison. And you need to figure out. Each of us needs to figure out what aspect of the law is meaningful enough for me

that if I am going to miss my weekend with my kids, I'm going to show up late for my spouse's birthday, which of these aspects of law is important enough for me in this world that I would do that. That's a good giant question. People should be asking themselves regardless of what they practice is what is most meaningful. I think we're hearing more and more of what makes you happy or do whatever makes you happy. And it's like, that's a very short-term plan because you can hit that really quickly. But finding what's meaningful, what's going to get you out of bed on the Friday that it's absolutely sunny and you'd rather be on the lake and everyone wants to be on the lake, what's

going to get you into work and give you a good day's work where you actually make a difference in somebody's life. Yes. And your freedom is that motivation for me. And it's freedom in a particular context, your freedom to see your kids, your freedom to be able to buy groceries for your children because I was able to help you get child support. Your freedom to know that you do not have to respond to your ex's abusive text messages. Your freedom to sit with me in my office and say, the way you're behaving to your spouse is not acceptable. And I want to work with you to help you shift that dialogue. That is worth it to me. That seems like a huge mixture of social services and law. Yeah. What is that like? And what does the psychology help in that way?

Yes, it does. And, you know, we often are saying to our clients, we are not therapists. and therapists are more affordable than us. But understanding that people have emotional, psychological drives, and that's actually what leads us, right? That's what leads us. I'm here with you today, not because I have a practical need to be on a podcast, but I have an emotional drive to say, Aaron, I think you're doing a great job.

You're rocking it. So that's why I'm here instead of with my daughter, right? So our psychological motivations are critical in family law. And I do think that one of the things that we miss so fundamentally in teaching law students, in teaching young lawyers, is how do you communicate with your client so that they will come alongside you and work with you? And the number one ingredient in that is that they have confirmation, that I see who they are, that they are of value. and I acknowledge what they're going through, right? So that background in psych was far more important than I could have ever imagined because I thought what I was doing in practice is what everyone was doing in practice,

and that is not the case. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think a lot of people do have an understanding of what family law is, and it's just hell for most people going through it. But you have a completely different approach than the status quo, which was a huge reason I wanted to have you on is people don't know this, but you stopped me in the courthouse. I did. I was working as a native court worker. And I asked you, are you, are you an articling student? Yes. And I said, no, just a native court worker. And you said, what's that?

Exactly. The interest. And then you invited me to your office to have an espresso. Yes. And talk about what I do. And you would tell me what you would do. And that was incredibly valuable because I'd have people coming to me with criminal law matters, saying, I also have a family matter tomorrow, and could you help me with that? And I'm like, no, I don't know anything about it. I have no idea even where to point you. Huge. And you helped me understand where to direct people and how to help them through those moments. Oh, you had such huge task. I remember us having that first conversation. Oh, what's a native court worker? What do you do? This is so fascinating. Do you also have to go into family law? Yeah. You have to know family law, too. Let's talk. Yeah. Right? Because it's huge, you know,

even lawyers outside of family law think it's straightforward it's easy peasy it's something they can dabble in and i think we're going to be seeing that once again with the major shift away from personal injury because of the changes with icbc and all of us family lawyers we're just shaking our head saying you know what it's actually incredibly complex every every year i'm learning my my assistants just walked into my office yesterday's like and there you go learning more stuff again and he put down the article i'd print it out like because it's always changing so yeah How is our approach different? I'm a little bit hard for me to answer because I am not in other firms and I'm not at other

firms intentionally. So, but I'll try to answer that. My focus very genuinely is on peace. And it's actually not peace at all cost because that's not peace. That's tyranny. You know, what I say to my kids is, you know, I know other people call me a lawyer. But what I want you to think of what I'm doing is as piecework. I'm a peace worker.

And my job is to help somebody see the different options on a path of dignity to help them get this not untied and help them find ways to stay on that path. So they don't demean themselves, their spouse, they don't cause mental illness in their children. Some people really aren't interested in that. They really are interested in high conflict. They're interested in spending their $60,000 and having you spend your $60,000 on a trial. and they're interested in total domination, so that would never be my client.

I might have that other party on the other side, but it really is about inviting a client, honestly, to be accountable for the decisions they've made in a non-shaming way. We don't need to do that, but listen, you chose the spouse, and nobody starts a marriage or a common law relationship, you know, thinking, you know, let's have two good years together. three kind of boring years. And then let's make those last seven really traumatic so that we never forget all the hurt that we caused one another. Nobody starts out with that intention. And yet so many of us end up there. So, you know, it's like, well, this is where you're at. And how can we help you move through that in the most efficient manner, keeping as many dollars in your pocket

as possible, so that actually you're able to rebuild and go on and have a really positive vision for your life and to actually be really grounded in your own self-worth. So it's kind of a very circuitous answer, isn't it? I apologize. No problem. I have to touch on the peace at all cost is a tyranny. I think it is. Can you elaborate? Because I absolutely agree, but how did you get that's such a succinct way of saying that yeah well um you know here's another thing i wish they would teach in law school which is directly related to that boundary setting okay we were not raised at least in my generation have boundaries i was a born boundary setter i've been telling my parents off since i was five literally um not the best thing to do but that's how i knew how to

set boundaries at that time, right? So people come into their separation and they have what they have as they have priorities. The priorities are not their real priorities. Their priorities are their perceived priorities. Sorry, microphone. They're perceived priorities. I want to be a good parent. I want to have stable housing and I want to have a job that will help me pay the bills and have time with my kids. Those are those are the ones I say, but underneath that are actually these real priorities. And maybe my real priority is that I want my ex to finally say I'm a good spouse, that I'm a good mother, that I'm worthwhile, that he was a real lutch. And we get this huge disconnect when we keep talking about our perceived priorities and not actually getting real about these. And the underground emotional priorities are actually our drivers, in my opinion.

And if I don't have a way to create space for you to get real about that, what I can achieve in law for you will always be disappointing. It will always be disappointing because there are very few circumstances where a judge is going to look at someone in one version or the other say, you were a lech and you were exceptional. That's not their job. They are not there to shame anybody and it would only make their job worse and more toxic. They have a hard job to do. Think of all the conflict they hear day in and day out, right? So if we look at that, all of these emotional goals from the perspective of achieving peace, if my goal is to have you say, wow, Anouk was a really exceptional spouse and she was very self-sacrificing,

I might end up trying to give everything to you when I'm entitled to half. And that is not sane. and you might know that about me and you might use that to your advantage you might you know by the time you've come to me you've got 10 years of damaging scripts in the relationship and so it might be like yeah you know you always have been so greedy when really all i'm asking for is if 50% of the equity but if my driving force is for you to see me as good for your mom to see me as good i might give that all away and there is there's nothing dignified reasonable in that it's treacherous, isn't it?

Absolutely. So we need to, as family lawyers, be able to identify when someone's leaning to the side of emotional goals, acknowledge it, and say, that's actually not the side that I can get your results on. So let's get you connected with the great therapist. Are you connected with community organizations that are valuable to you? Are you getting out and doing things that remind you that life can be fun, you know, and then let's, let's on this side do the important legal work that we can do together.

Absolutely. That's so interesting because you're right. That is something that is likely a factor in all people's cases. Every single one. And we don't talk about them, and that's usually not what's on the description of the law firm, is that we're keeping an eye on those things as well. Yeah. And in the short term, it would appear to others that having an eye to stay out of court is not a great business model, right? Because a trial will get you a lot of dollars. But actually, it's really toxic. And I have an ethical responsibility as a family law lawyer to support you at any client walking in. I mean, it sound like you're one of my clients. Aaron's not my client. Just so you know, sorry. But to support anybody walking into my office to be able to solve the problem without the stress and expense of going into court. So every family lawyer has that active duty. The challenge is how do we interpret that duty? Do I see my best work as a lawyer as my client seeing me fight for them in front

of a judge and then a judge giving a decision? I think legitimately some lawyers feel that. and they might hear this or see this and say, well, a nuke's a real pansy for not wanting to take everything to trial, and they're free to have that opinion. But the divergence is how do we interpret that duty? And I take it very seriously. So how can I reach out to the other side when maybe both my client and I want to tell them off? Maybe I want to tell that lawyer off. Maybe I want to say, your letter was really demeaning and I'm sick of your patriarchal crap. And instead, I'm going to go to my assistant and say, I would really like to have a telephone meeting with that person.

And also to be mindful that that other lawyer might very well be thinking the same things about me. And so, you know, when we were talking before about conflict, maybe if I've said it wrong, to give space... for the possibility that I actually am a good person who just said it wrong. And I have found that so many times on files. I can't describe how often that happens to me. And for me, I've often called that steel manning, which is to look at the other side, despite the fact that it's miscommunicated and not very clear. And to say, this person might have a point and I might be wrong. And even if I'm

right, it's worthwhile to check out to see if I'm wrong and try and build that relationship and humble myself before attacking the other side. Yes, you know, important phrases and sometimes this is, you know, we're working with clients to help them build their communication skill on these things, saying things like, can you tell me more about that? Help me understand that that point of your argument. It seems very important to you. you know, just reaching across the table and also knowing that lawyer on the other side who's sending that letter is having their own struggles with their own client. I called a lawyer the other day who I like a great deal and, oh no, he called me, picked up the phone. I said, hi, I'm just going

into a meeting and I said, but I really wanted to talk with you. I'm so glad you called. And I said, I just, I really like your phone call. So much. more than I like your letters. I could really see on the last two that you were sharpening your claws. And I'm not judging him for it. There's actually nothing to judge there. He is doing his job to the best of his ability and I know on the other side is likely not an easy client because clients are in emotional volatility, most of them at different points throughout their entire process. So it's not like it goes away. And just to be able to have the confidence in one another to pick up the phone and believe that we can have a civil dialogue. Absolutely. And

recognizing that different mediums are good for different things because I've gotten into disagreements with people verbally and gone, you know what, this person really isn't going to understand what I have to say because if I go into it and say, hey, I want to talk about this issue, they're going to leap on the normal defenses of you misunderstood, you don't understand, you misread that, and that's on you. Like, Isn't that interesting? But if you can lay it out in like an email and say, I know you're going to bring up this argument. I know you're going to say these things.

I know that that's where you go when I come at you with this information. And so I have to be very careful and be very diplomatic in recognizing these are the three things I think you're going to say. And so if we could get past those, maybe we could actually resolve the issue underneath because these are just defense mechanisms. you're just saying the thing to try and get back, control over the discussion. I completely agree. Those strategies of you don't understand, you don't know, is really about me saying, Aaron, could you please just stop challenging me on this? I feel really comfortable in my opinion.

And rather than just saying that, wouldn't it be great if on a broad scale we all just employed radical honesty so that when I'm just feeling, insecure in the moment I could say, you know, Aaron, I'm actually just really feeling insecure about this. And I find you to be a very articulate person. So I just don't know if anything I have to say is worthwhile. That could actually be the truth underneath the you don't understand. But if I give you that, I bet you're still going to give me the information, but you're actually going to create space for me to say, I think you're really worthwhile. Absolutely.

I think you see that with apologies as well, where I'm willing to apologize in a certain circumstance, but I expect reciprocity, and sometimes somebody will apologize and say, well, I'm sorry. And then if the words out of the person aren't genuine and thankful, then it's, well, forget my apology, I take it back. You deserve what you get. And never mind. We really, but we really, and I hope this is shifting.

we really don't have a dialogue of healthy apology in our broader community. And if we did, a lot of marriages would be saved and I wouldn't be busy. And that would be okay because I could go get a job somewhere else. But we actually don't, our egos are so deeply fragile rather than just saying, Erin, I really meant well by what I did and what I said, and it just wasn't received that way, and I see it really hurt you. I have to say I don't understand it at this moment, but I'm so deeply sorry that I hurt you. And are you prepared to share with me what that was like?

And maybe I'm not going to have anything to say back right away, but I want to hear. Like, how far could we get? if we could have those dialogues. I feel so bad because the way I look at the world at this point in time is more like whoever's on the other side of the email or the call, I'm assuming, is incredibly delicate because I'm trying to prepare for all of those misunderstandings. One of the big ones that we were just trying to deal with was wage. And we were trying to figure out how to communicate, not me,

but how me and my friend were to communicate this person is not getting enough hours and they're not getting enough pay. They're making minimum wage and they're not getting enough hours. So we want one. We'd like one to increase. It doesn't have to be both. But for when I was trying to help this person write it, it was like, how is this person going to read it?

How are they going to look at the words of like, oh, you want more money and do you want more hours? And it's like, no, we want some, we need something in order to continue to live comfortably. Yes. So how do we live? Comfortable is probably not even in the equation. Just to live. Exactly.

But how do you communicate that through an email or through a conversation without the person thinking of you as a money grubber or trying to, oh, you just started this job and now you think you deserve all the hours? And it's like, that's not our goal. Our goal is just stability for a really dedicated employee. And so how do you communicate that through those mediums without having the person lean and that's always in my mind when I'm talking to someone is how is this coming across if I was to interpret it the worst way possible? Yeah. And so that's, I don't think a good sign is that that is where my mind goes. I think it's a, it's very lawyerly. of you. Yes. I do. Um, because we need to think of what is the worst outcome here and how can I

protect you from that. I think it's great that you're thinking of who is the audience and how can I reach them. Um, and so it's so important, right? How do you write that hard letter? How do you have those hard conversations of I really enjoy working here? And I know that you're really struggling right now because there's this huge uncertainty just in our whole country about COVID. And I believe that one of the things that helps you have stability is knowing you have employees that actually want to come to work every day. I'm one of them. I just need to be able to pay for my bus and have enough to pay for my food and my rent. And so I really want to stay here in order to do that, I need more wages and that either has to come from more hours

or more pay. But, you know, those going into conversations actually with some heart. And I know that's kind of strange for a lawyer to be saying, but actually it's really important in law because it's all about conflict. And it's really important in all of our conflict dialogues. I acknowledge you. I see you. Yeah, I don't think that's happening as much, but it seems to be happening in your practice. In my practice, it does. I think some people think I'm a little bit hokey, and I'm super okay with that, to be like, oh, you know, wouldn't be surprised if I came with, like, I don't know, like sparkles on my shoes.

I probably have done that. Let's start with the competition then to make you not sound at all like that, is what do you see the worst side of your competition? What's a really bad opposition like? so people can get an understanding of what that, what you're up against when you're trying to use this positive, I wouldn't just say positive, but because... Functional, really pragmatic. Exactly.

It has that you understand the realities of people and you put that into action. What is that like against the worst? So sure, sort of like your status quo, oh, why did that person choose that lawyer? Like that picture. sure that would be deeply disorganized taking on too many files not knowing their files well and and looking for opportunities to conflict instead of solve the problem so if you and I are supposed to have a day-long mediation and maybe it's going to take all day and that's okay because mediation's really constructive but it's not an express way in terms of we come in and five minutes

later we have it solved. I can use that time to problem self creatively with you and you can use that time to meet me there or you can just keep putting up barriers because you know what's next is a five-day trial. And I think that comes about from a variety of ways. Maybe the person doesn't have trust in the other lawyer. Maybe they are worried they're going to be taken advantage of. That's usually an indication that they don't have sufficient knowledge on the topic at hand. And some people, some lawyers are not prepared to say no to their clients. Again, that boundary setting. I wish that boundary setting was more taught in law school because my job is not to tell clients what they want to hear. My job is to tell my client what they need to hear. So what are the legal principles

affecting child support? What about spousal support, property division? What if you're on banned land? What does that mean for the property that you're living on? You know, whole host of other issues. But it's really unlikely that if I'm being honest, I can give you a yes, you're going to get everything you want. And in fact, if I'm being really honest, I'm going to say a good settlement is one where you are both deeply disappointed, which means neither of you got everything. And so, am I as counsel able to say that to my client? And if not, then I'm more likely going to be parroting them rather than guiding them and being their support in the legal process. So we have to have the confidence to be disliked. Super honest. That's what it is. I was just saying to my ex

today, he's at my house watching, hanging out with the nine-year-old. And he said, oh, you look really nice. I said, yeah, I'm going on a date. And he and I both laughed because he knows that's not true. And I said, you know, I could never get a date in Chilliwack. And he said, yeah, I guess not, eh? Your job's really strange. And I said, yeah, because one half of Chilowack doesn't like me and the other half has been my clients. Neither are the pool that you draw from for dating. So there's no dating. And we just laughed. But it's true. Your clients are not necessarily. going to like you. It is not your, it's not our job to be liked. And that's actually one of the great lessons that law invites you and I to. That's so weird though, because when you think

about trying to run a business, you want your, you want your hypothetical customers to really like you and to want to say really positive things. Yeah. Yeah. And to be honest, I actually think by large, our previous and ongoing clients would, but my job is still my job. And the ethical standards we have are actually really important. My duty to that client is really important, and it's actually more important than them liking me. Because it's really easy to give a platitude. Absolutely. What in law, we learn about something called like a duty of care and how to approach things. I don't think most people have to interact with those types of terminologies. Could you tell us a little bit about how, what a duty of care is in your

circumstance and how you view that as manifesting itself? Oh, well, I think there's, I mean, I think there's many, right? I mean, from your really standard, I'm holding the proceeds of sale from the family home in the trust account, and I have a duty of care to you not to squander that money, not to steal that money. If it's a sufficient amount, to put it in a high-interested account to help you guys have a larger pool to draw from. That would be really standard. But, you know, I would say in family law, but I can think of a whole host of other areas. Sorry, when you're talking about your duty of care to your client, it's really about being

honest about where they're at. Does the client actually understand the instructions they're giving you? Do they actually understand their options that are available to them? Or am I leading you down the garden path? Am I taking away opportunities for you to get peaceful settlement with your ex-spouse because I'm in conflict with the other lawyer? Can you imagine? I mean, that would affect somebody's family forever. It affects their children's wellness. So in each area of law, it's expressed differently, isn't it? But at the end of the day, we have to protect the client's interests above our own.

And if you're not able to do that, you need to get off the file. And if there's some conflict, you need to get off the file. And, you know, many of us lawyers say it's good to regularly fire a client. And I don't disagree with that sentiment. What is that like to recognize that and to have to go up against people who are, they don't realize you owe a duty of care? They don't, they're hoping that you're going to act ethically, but likely the person walking in is coming in very vulnerable. Yes, they are.

To not understanding your role, what you're capable of, and how much power you yield when you hold all of their money in a trust account and what that, and they're just having faith. Oh, these are, this is a great question because this is actually something I address in pretty much every consultation that I have with clients. So number one, one of my guiding principles is choice, that I get to experience choice in my, life and you get to experience choice in yours. So one thing I say to every client, every potential client that I'm meeting with is I actually would really like you to take the time to think about whether we're the right firm for you because we may not be and you need to know that that's okay. And they're kind of shocked that I'm saying, I really think you should think seriously about not hiring me. And that is basically what I'm telling them. They're like, what are you doing? And they look at me

surprised and I say, listen, your freedom of choice is really important to me and that you have choices throughout this entire process. So we start with the lawyer you choose. So I'll often say to them, let's think about it from the perspective of the relationship you have with your family doctor. It's a business relationship and it's personal to you. And do you have a good relationship with your doctor? And many of them say yes. And I say, here's what I think are the hallmarks of a good relationship with my family doctor that my doctor hears me she understands the issues and she tells me what i need not what i want because otherwise she'd say things like anewk cigarettes are great just and just drink caffeinated beverages all day right that's never what she would say to me ever and so

that's a good relationship because she tells me what i need and so i'm really honest i'm i'm inviting clients to think about the relationships differently starting with their relationship with me so if you don't feel that we're a good match for you. It's actually not my job to convince you that we are. It's my job to give you the space to support you and finding the lawyer that's a good match. So I'd like you to think about it for at least today. And sometimes there's exceptions if they're like, you know, my kid's been taken. I don't know where they are. Okay. We don't have time for that sort of self-reflection. And if you want to retain us, here's what it looks like. If you don't, call us back and we are going to give you referrals to lawyers that we would love to have as

our counsel. So one, give them choice. Two, talk about the importance of the of clients saying to lawyers, I don't know and I don't understand. You know, I had a client write me back once and I often quote this experience. I sent him a letter, thought it was super straightforward. He wrote me back two words, two and a half words. I'm overwhelmed. Excellent. Now I know where you're at. I can meet you where you're at. All right, come on in. We'll make you a latte. Let's make it decaf since you're overwhelmed. And let's just sit in this space together and we will go through it. But his honesty help me support him as his counsel better. So letting people know that they have the right to save their lawyer. I don't understand what's going on. I want to better understand that they should

expect that their lawyer help them build their legal knowledge so that we don't always have to be in their life, that they have a general understanding of child support, of spousal support, of their responsibilities to one another as parents, what they should be talking about with the kids, what they shouldn't be talking about so that we're just there for the interim so that they can go on without us because having lawyers in your life isn't always the healthiest thing, even though I think we're a friendly bunch. And then the next one, which is an unexpected passion of mine is billing. So with every client, I say you have the right. to know exactly where your money goes when you hire a lawyer.

So I talk with them in a very frank way about billing because we live in a society where it's rude to talk about money. And I don't think that's helpful. So what I'll say is every time you get a bill from a lawyer, it should say date activity time, date activity time with enough specificity that you understand exactly where my time went, where my team's time went, and where your money went. and if you're concerned about any of it, you have the right to ask about it and what you should expect on the other end of that call, or if you're coming in for a meeting, is time and willingness

to hear you and explore that issue. Now, if you want a discount, just because you want to discount, I'm likely going to say no. And I tell clients that right up front. But I'm also not going to overbill you. And I'm not going to hide fees. And everything should be transparent to you. And I say this to them in a broad way because I really, I really do think we should support individuals and choosing the right family lawyer for them. And so if it's not us, I want them to go to that family lawyer, that other family lawyer with knowledge so that if they're getting the all too common bill of a paragraph summary and you owe me $13,000 to say, let's just hold the phone here. $13,000 takes a long time for me to save. And even

if it doesn't, I have the right to choose how I spend my money. How did you spend my money? Well, it's right there. It's a summary of our work. I actually want to see your time sheets. Right? So some firms will do date activity, date, activity, date activity. And what's missing is the time column. I believe that we build respect with our clients with transparency. So I want them to see exactly where it is. I'm so curious. There's a lot to unpack there. Right. But one of them is this has been a growing consistent theme amongst most of the guests I've had on is that there isn't a fight to, that you might think Brett Kintella, who's a realtor, would want all the clients, every client he can get no matter what. That's not his position.

Kevin Westall, same boat. Johnny, same boat. And you, in the same boat of it's not about getting all the clients. It's about doing right by the clients that are a good fit. Yes, absolutely. Where do you think that comes from because it is a unique quality? Well, I mean, from my own perspective, I think law is a very hard career path. It is hard and you suffer.

And what makes it workable is not putting your ego in it, working with great people in your team and working with clients that you can do good for. And I just don't think everybody's meant to like us and I'm not meant to like everybody and it's not even about liking. When I'm in a meeting with a client, you know, they're interviewing us. They often don't realize we're interviewing them too. And my question is, is this person able to hear me? And am I able to get from them the information that I need to advise them wisely. And I have said to people before, can we just take a moment because you've paid really good money for my time and I want to make it worth your while, but I'm noticing that every time I'm talking about the law, you're moving into justice and saying

it's not fair and he should have to do this or she should have to do that. And no matter how many times you tell me that, it's not going to change what the law is, even if your feelings about justice are reasonable. So can you meet me here where I can do work for you? And so often I just say, you know, I really hope this was a helpful meeting for you. We're not going to be able to take you on as a client. Because fighting with a client to protect them is headbanging work, and I'm not interested. Well, and it's not going to work because trying to, it's like trying to save someone from drowning.

The point isn't to go in with your hand first. It's actually to swim away from the person so they can grab your feet because they're inevitably going to try and pull you down before you're able to save them. So it's about going in strategically and making sure that both parties kind of understand. But it does sound like there's a lot of humility to the work that you and other guests have done, where it's about doing. the right work. It's about doing the work where it actually, your presence can make a difference. Yeah. And, and you know, that's what makes the work worthwhile because there's a lot

of stress. I don't know many lawyers that are found of the law society and just the unending rules. We've got, we get lots of COVID notices now and I'm like, oh, another one, just trying to keep track of it. But that you get to make a difference. I remember, my first year of practice, I was in Calgary, and I went and did an application before the Court of Appeal for Security for Costs. And my argument was largely based on a very traumatic story in this family of family violence. And our firm belief, as a firm, that the motive of this person was actually just to be in the same vicinity as our client to try and kill her. And the court knew, it was a great experience being questioned by the appeal court judges, that if they granted our application, that really the appeal was dead in the water.

And I absolutely acknowledged it. And we did win. And I left court that day. I remember walking through this walkway connecting the Court of Appeal in Calgary to the mall, whatever. And I thought, I have the greatest job in the world. It's really what I felt at the moment. And I thought, I just saved somebody's life with the rules of court. How crazy is that?

And that was probably like my best day. I've had some really great days. But this person and their kids got to go on and live a good life without further interference. And that was really humbling to be a part of that. or, you know, for a client to get child support, or for a parent to be able to see their children, and the proviso is that it's healthy for them to see their children, or, you know, something so small that we don't often talk about in family law, how to support a family in shifting the dialogue from, I hate you, you cheated on me, you're a loser, whatever, to what time are you picking up the kids?

to help people understand that they're now in the business of parenting, and that's a fundamentally different dialogue. Absolutely. I did listen to some of your podcast where you do talk a little bit about that role and that relationship. What is that like to move the dialogue in that direction where people are likely happy in their place of that person's the worst? Yes.

I'm the best. Ha ha, I'm going to beat them. What is it like to go against somebody who is the hypothetical victor, the person who is probably the better suitor for the child in a lot of circumstances to move them away from, okay, you're right, you are the better parent in this moment, but you can't keep calling so-and-so these horrible names. Yeah, I think, I mean, for me, it's a, it's a really good use of my time, one, because what I'm saying is true. And they're actually spending really good money to try and have a better life and hating spending all your time in that hate and I know it because

I've been there. It actually doesn't give you a better life. It's really toxic. It makes you sick. I think emotionally it just weighs you down. But here's the reality. So few of us are taught how to be married well. I certainly didn't have great role models for that. And then none of us, none of us are taught how to be separated well. So where do you learn that? Surprisingly, from your family lawyers and your therapists. And listen to the judges. They often have really wise things to say about the conflict because they've seen thousands of them

and they really don't want that for your family. So it's really just getting honest with people about are you willing to shift your thinking? Are you willing to shift your dialogue? well you know he's got to show me some respect first and he's got to you know really appreciate how much I do actually he doesn't have to appreciate anything he doesn't have to show respect for anything um and you don't need to wait until you feel better to act better and perhaps if you change your dialogue you will find over time that things will get better not always and honestly the clients who are committed to the high conflict toxic dialogue, those are files that I will get off

because that is not why I do what I do. And I will not be the person that helps you, frankly, shit all over your ex all the way to the end of a trial and keep on going and be like, well, I didn't know that he said all these bad things to little Johnny or I didn't know. that she was saying these things. I'm not a client's moral compass, but I have my own moral compass for me. And I'm comfortable that if someone is committed to their toxic dialogue and they're involving their kids in it, I'm out. The good news is most people aren't committed to that. They just didn't know that they could shift it or have a framework. So often just working with them on that and having them go and see a therapist that can support them in that. A lot of

separated couples go to communication counseling, which is great. And it's not meant to get them back together. It's how can the two of you just be civil, decent people to each other in raising your children so you don't totally screw them up? And a lot of people will go and try. So that's fantastic. That's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on. And I know that this is going to be a crude comparison. But I do think that you're similar to a palliative care nurse. For those of you who don't know, a palliative care nurse helps people at the end of their life and tries to make that psychologically comfortable. And that's a hard job. That's a hard job for anyone to support people who they know we're going to pass away very quickly. It could be that day, all day,

every day. That's what those people do. And that's a really hard, you're in hell because you're having to let go of people all the time. You've just grabbed them a drink. You've just had a great conversation and then they're gone. And I can't imagine what that work is like. But your job is very similar in the sense that you're dealing with two people likely and possibly a lawyer who's against you as well. And all of them want the worst for each other. The clients definitely want the worst for the spouse in a lot of circumstances. They're not acting in the best interest of their children. And we can't always fault parents for not treating the children perfectly. They are the most important. But they're also losing a relationship. And that relationship is like a person.

That relationship is who grabbed my coffee every morning for 10 years. Who helped me make my bed. Who helped me get over the loss of my family member. There's a lot of relationship there. And you're having to cut the ties and help these people say goodbye or start to distance themselves. and become their own people that aren't reliant on each other, that aren't focused on tearing each other apart in a way that's like the palliative care nurse that you're trying to help people cope with hell. You're right. And I don't think we, I think that it's important to have you on in part because we don't

hear from people who are trying to make the whole landscape of the world a little bit better and a little bit more stable. And it's not you fixed everything all at once. It's every single day you show up at work. with this mindset of we need to help people get stable so kids do better so they do better so our society does better so our community does better because you're mostly serving people right there right here and as you said earlier it's like 50% of the people here are like your clients and so 50% of people need your help in this type of community and the other half are against you and so you're constantly

having to navigate and try and help people in very tough circumstances yeah so what What is that, what is that like in terms of being a community member here that you mostly go unnoticed unless people are in hell? Yeah, you know, Chilawak is the smallest community that I've ever lived in. Usually I've been in urban centers and you do lose the anonymity. So I do have people come up to me when I'm with my kids. Anuk, I have a question and they will ask me questions about their divorce or separation or conflict. I don't mind that so much, as long as it doesn't involve something traumatic, and my kids are used to me being stopped. And, you know, my son will poke my arm and I'll say to him later, you know, that person is asking me a question because they trust me.

And I need to honor that. One thing I worry about is if people were to be aggressive to me in front of my kids, the response just, wouldn't be good, because that's a deal breaker for me. I haven't had to deal with that face-to-face, like with my kids there, so that's great. I think one of the things that all of us need to do in law is understand how it is that we cannot be of assistance. So, for example, I will not take files where there is concerns of. about sexual abuse of children. I can't do it.

I'm not functional. I can mediate those files because I do child protection mediation as well. But that brings me to a really unproductive, broken place. It just makes me feel so hopeless and angry that I could not be productive. and so I will not take those files. That would break my spirit. I think some people get into family law and it breaks their spirit, just the general issues. Then you shouldn't be in it because your life is of value and you do deserve a good life.

Let somebody else take that place. So that's a very hard boundary for me. I won't do it. I will do it as the mediator and that can be a challenge. And usually I sit in my car after and honestly just cry. And because I don't know what else to do, because I'm so angry that that's happening, I mean, this is probably the only time you're going to see me at a loss for words, because it's just dumbfounding for me. So I stay away from those files. And on the rest of it, I feel like I get a front row seat to seeing somebody grow.

get the front row seat to seeing them get their self-worth back. I get the front row seat for a client coming in to my office and saying, I changed my name today. And that felt really good. I felt like I had a little bit of control in my own life for the first time. Or, um, you know what? my, my ex came to the door and tried to start a fight and a nuke, I had you in the back of my mind. And I've had clients say that. I was talking with a previous client this last month. And he said, you know, we still talk about you all the time. And we remember what you said about how we have to communicate. And we're not forgetting it. And we're sticking to it. And then I think, ah then your life is more self-respecting and any children you may have their life is better so

I am in the front row for the conflict but I'm also in the front row for all the great amazing joyful hopeful stuff that comes from figuring out how to conflict reasonably so it's not just putting away conflict. I hate it when people are like, we just shouldn't fight. And I think that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. No, we all fight. But how can we conflict? And each of us walk away with dignity doesn't mean we agreed on everything, but we've got a plan and that our kids' lives are stable and that child support is being paid. And we now have a plan for the property that we just couldn't resolve for a long time. I get to be on the front line. And of seeing somebody's life re-blossom.

Wow. I cannot imagine how positive that would be to be a part of those conversations and to see, like, there is terrible, hard parts of the job, but to be able to take those terrible things and to turn them into not so terrible. It's not always going to be perfect flowers growing everywhere and best friends and everyone's at peace, but it's that middle ground of making sure that everyone is taken care of in a way where they can move forward. Where they can move forward.

Just finishing up a file that I've had for years now, which is really rare for me. Usually it's like a one and done. Like within one year, most files are settled for me. And just the idea that very soon, my client will not have to call me anymore. And that the lawyers actually, we worked together so well.

And there weren't always easy moments to try and find solutions, but we actually, the lawyers stuck to it and the client stuck to it. And even when maybe a client over here or somebody over there is inviting the lawyers to really take it to an unproductive place, we never did. And that is super rewarding. That's got to be tough just because it's like a bad conversation where you go on too many tangents in the wrong direction and you have to keep an eye on what everybody. kind of doing because you can have somebody who's just all of a sudden, like, you know what, I'm in a really bad mood, had a bad sleep, and I'd like to just ask for 20% more, or I'd like to get more of this, or I'd really like to stick it to them today. And you have to navigate those

circumstances. Yeah, and that's why it's really important, actually. I know you probably here in law school, it's really important to be collegial. And it actually really is to try and develop good relationships in an authentic way with the lawyers that you work with. There's a lawyer I know we really don't get along. We really don't. And I think he would have as many criticisms of me as I would have of him. And at the end of last year, just wrote and said, can I take you out to lunch? And so that hasn't happened because of scheduling and then COVID. But I'm going to try again because I am prepared to sit across the table from this person outside of our file work and just here. And not to say, here's what I think you can do to work with me better, but actually to say to them, what would you like to see from me for our files to go more smoothly?

And have that humility to actually hear the answer and look at implementation rather than just nice words. Yeah, and what do I think I'm going to get if I go to lunch with this person and say, let me tell you, I really think there's a lot wrong with you. That is so unhelpful. But maybe if I can start by saying, I actually want to hear from you, how do you think our work on files together could go better? What do you think I could be doing? What is it about me that frustrates you so much? I may not agree with any of it. But if I can think about it and say, oh, could I shift my approach and the phone calls. Oh, I'm noticing a theme that he gets frustrated when I put this in a letter. Is it going to harm my dignity at all to not put that in a letter? Is it going to harm my client's position? It's not. So how about I be open to just shifting that so that I can have a better working relationship with that person? Yeah, I think that that's incredibly important and I think in law school it starts to teeter a little bit on on the fakeness and collegial does not mean just saying hey have a good day and playing a game it's about actually

looking for those real solutions and looking within yourself to try and build positive relationships because if you're meeting someone at a law bar and you're getting together and you're having a five-minute conversation with a lawyer you're not being real you're not figuring out what positions you both hold and how they can overlap. You're just having small talk. And one of my faults is I'm not good at small talk. And so actually, I need those connections to be real, to feel like I have that connection. And it doesn't mean I'm going to be somebody's dear Abby and I'm best friends with everybody. That that's not the point. But for us as lawyers to know where our safe spaces are in our professional

community. And for me to know I can call another lawyer and say, I'm really struggling in my work with this person. So one, they're not going to think I'm a loser because I don't have all the answers. And two, that their feedback is actually going to be really functional and it's not just going to be like, yeah, they suck, you know. And that also they can say to me, I'm having a really hard day. I know we have to work on this file. I'm having a really hard day. My kid kept me up all night or my mom has been sick or I'm just feeling really overwhelmed by the work that actually a healthy legal community in my opinion makes space for our brokenness. It doesn't mean we don't do the work. You know, if a lawyer is saying, well, I can't do this because of this and this and this,

okay, what's our other plan? But if you and I are in an all-day mediation or we know we've got to be on the phone for an hour and a half, two hours to sort something out, that there's actually space for us to say that to one another and that we genuinely hold each other up so that we can do the work. It doesn't mean I'm not advocating hard for my client. It doesn't mean that you're not fighting for your client's position, but it means we're not nasty to each other in the process. That's what that means and that we're not going to be taking dirty swings at each other. Well, and that's probably the problem with the pedestal, is that that disconnects you from reality, which is that you are just both people. You both go at home at the end of the day.

And in law, there seems to be, there's a lot of accolades to win in law. You can climb a ladder, and it's really great. But it does disconnect you from the reality that life is life. You're going to have home life problems. You're going to have to clean up after things. You're going to have normal days. Yes. But we distance ourselves.

and most of the general public doesn't know lawyers as peers because lawyers are each other's peers most of the time. And so we look at them differently and we don't expect those real conversations to occur over the phone. Yes. And I think the whole idea of the pedestal is incredibly damaging for just that because then you're a successful lawyer if your life is shiny. The truth is almost no one's life is shiny. Right now, my house is a mess. I haven't weeded my lawn in like a really long time and I need to get out there. My kitchen sink probably has dirty dishes in it.

And, you know, I mean, there's a whole laundry list, right? But if we all were in that, I think we would just, the toxic one upmanship would go away. It would just go away. And our professional community would be so. much healthier and actually kinder to one another. Well, and we definitely have an overlap because doctors have respect within the community. But for, and to me, I find doctors are just normal people. Yes.

And they don't come across as different. But I think a lot of just even having a law society makes you sound like you have some inner knowledge on the world, on how the world works saying I'm a part of the bar. These, these words, they make, they make people who don't know what the bar is feel less then immediately because it's like you're saying words I don't understand and you're part of groups I'm not aware of. You're part of the elite and I'm not. Well, from a psychological perspective, there's in-group and out-group and one of the ways you affirm and strengthen your in-group and heighten its exclusivity is you have your own language and you have your own

systems and we have all of that in spades. Yeah. And some of it is, some of it is valuable. Some of it is unavoidable. But let's not treat it as precious. Yeah. Yeah. I think let's not treat it as precious. I think Latin is one of those big ones where it's valuable because it does seem to say a lot of information in a very succinct, quick way. And you can break it down and then understand what it is. And it's actually quicker than explaining the whole Latin concept. So once you know it, it's a lot faster. But at the same time, if you say Latin to a client, you're going to just intimidate them. You're just going to bring them down on the ladder.

But maybe one way to empower your client is to say, I want you to be prepared. You know, when we're going into this mediation, this is a big idea in your separation. It has a lot of meaning. The other lawyer and I have talked about it. So if they're saying these words, this is what I want you to know. These are Latin words. We've bastardized them badly. You know, they don't sound nice coming out of our mouths.

But this is what it means. and this is what it stands for. And so that they're going in empowered. So you've pulled away the veil a bit. And also for clients to have genuine permission to say, I don't understand. And also for lawyers to say that to each other, wonderful lawyer that I loved working with. Now a judge, remember, we had a telephone meeting. She said, you know, the problem, Anouk, is I just don't understand what you're asking.

asking for. And that was so incredibly helpful because often the solutions were coming up with our creative and you're trying to articulate it in your letter. And she didn't baby me at all. She also didn't insult me. She just said, I don't understand. There was a really great place to start rather than, why are you doing this and why are you doing that? She just straight line. Or saying, I don't agree. Like, I don't agree because I don't know what you want. Right. And so that was incredibly helpful. And we solved it. Oh, okay. Oh, you want to do that. Well, that's an idea. Okay. You know, but we were thinking of novel in different ways to solve a problem. And so the first time you're trying to articulate it, hard to articulate it. But I wasn't judged for that. She just said,

help me understand what you want. And then we did move forward. So it was great. Awesome. Here's a hypothetical for you. Okay. You have a client and they're on the same page as you. We're good to go there. The other side is a little bit more vindictive, and then even the lawyer is a little bit vindictive. It's really awful. Yeah. How would you approach that in this hypothetical circumstance? Because I know that that's probably something happens all the time. It happens all the time, I'm sure.

Yeah. I really do try to reach across the table. And, okay, can we get agreements on this? Can we get agreements on this? We need financial disclosure. Okay, it looks like we need child support on this. What about this? Okay.

we've been asking for three months for these documents um it doesn't okay i should i should step back it doesn't happen all the time um but when it does it feels like it's happening all the time um because those those personalities tend to create a lot of chaos and um now on one of them in particular we're like well uh we can't wait around for two years for that person to be ready so let's try and solve it where we can and if not let's just start getting to the applications and let's prep for trial and it's it's really that's the antithesis of how I work but I've realized in that situation that um because people need time you know people need time to process it you know separating parties need time to process I got a process that you actually really did leave me I've got

a process that this really is over I've got to accept that I'm really not getting everything. And so sometimes all people need is time. But if it's actually just about draining everything from the bank account through conflict so that there's nothing left, then I'm going to try and take an express route to get that done with. It's really unfortunate. What I don't do is say to the other lawyer, you're really high conflict. You might want to think about that. I don't because that is actually them doing their best. And I need to recognize that in their high-conflict experience, my unwillingness to say yes to their behavior, to accept it, to support the excuses, for them, that's me being high-conflict.

And I have to make a room that they see me just as I'm seeing them. And so I don't have those conversations with them. That makes sense. And that's probably the best way of going about it because you are doing your bet. You're saying, I'd like it to go this way. It doesn't look like they're willing. So how do I play their game? How do I?

And then that's going into the courtroom and saying, like, this is the only way to resolve this. And then another option. And I think every lawyer, if you'll get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm going to have a no-fly list. And if you have one or two lawyers on your no-fly list, okay. If it's more than that, then there's a problem. With you and your ability to approach people. That if somebody else, if that person's on the other side of the file, I will not be taking the file because where I need to go for my client to have that evenly matched in my mind is not ethical. I'm not saying in the other lawyer's mind it's not ethical. So I just will not take a file with them. And so I'll be like, sorry. And you know, frankly, my life is actually too short that it's just going to be an unending wall of aggression. And it doesn't need to do that. It doesn't need to be. It doesn't need to be. be that. That's not why I do this job. And at the end of the day, there has to be some element of

self-care in your practice. And part of that is saying, I actually have a no-fly list. Yeah, that makes sense. The other question I was going to ask is, it's obviously really hard to do this type of work because people are separating. And they'll be going through things like depression, anxiety, just the worst things. And then there can be alcohol involved, drugs, addictions. What are some of the anecdotal stories. You don't have to share names, but that you've gone through where that just didn't, everything just went the wrong way and that had nothing to do with you, but that some things were pushed in a way that doesn't work. Well, I think, I mean, probably the best examples are the ones that have unfortunately become really public because they've ended in

murder. And I mean, that's when it really hasn't worked. You know, I haven't had that on one of my files and I'm really grateful. We've had other things happen, but not that. But every family law file needs to, every family lawyer needs to always be thinking about what are the safety risks here with this shift? Because every shift brings stress because it's such a monumental change. You know, one of my classmates from law school was on a file where, and I can say this because it was very public, it was in the news that the child was murdered by the mother. And as soon as I learned that it was my classmate that had been on the file, one of the lawyers, I just ached for him so much and just reached out because that, you know, he gets, he carries that vicarious trauma

and it actually really emphasizes the need for us to sometimes say no to files because he's not the only one carrying vicarious trauma. There are family law lawyers that very shortly into practice have stopped practicing and actually are not able to work because they have post-traumatic stress disorder because they're involved in one of those files. That's not why any of us do this job. And what I can say is I set my practice up to minimize the chance of that and to minimize the chance of damage to me, my team or my kids from that because that doesn't help. But that that's where it all goes wrong is there's murder and suicide. It sounds awful, and it is awful. Well, and I think that that is the case, and I don't think as a society we're having

the conversation about what the realities of separation are, because we talk about how it's 50% of the population that are divorcing, but that doesn't matter in the sense that what else is going on there, because domestic violence we're trying to bring awareness to, but the hard thing for me to grapple with is it feels like we're saying the word domestic violence a lot more, but we're not talking about how that's, where is it manifesting, what is going on? And you are in a position where you're seeing that all the time, all the time, because people are fleeing the relationship in which they're being abused. Can you, can you tell us about what things we might not be informed on as much? Well, and I think it's, I think it's so complex. One of my

mentors. By the time I'd met her, she'd been in practice 30 years or so, and she said, you know, I knew three of my clients have been murdered, and in two of them, there had been no previous physical abuse. That's the level of the complexity. How do you figure out who's going to do what and what the risk is? And we do have screening mechanisms. I think the challenges, right, So with the Family Law Act, the Family Locked is much bigger than the Family Relations Act. And one of the things that it really fleshed out was, and tried to do, and I think did it well, was the complexity of family violence. That family violence isn't just my physical aggression to you. It's my financial control.

It's stalking. It's emotional. It's spiritual. It's physical, psychological. So there's this really important acknowledgement of it in the legislation. The challenges. How do you get a judge to hear that and know that that's really happening? Because there's two sides to the story.

And one of the things that I've learned that I find incredibly fascinating is that almost never does the bully feel like the powerful one in the relationship. The bully feels like they are deeply, deeply victimized. You know, they're saying things like, if you didn't do this, I wouldn't have to do that. If you didn't treat me this way, I wouldn't have to resort to this. So their wretched, horrible behavior is what they see as protection of the self. of the self. If you didn't annihilate my ego like this, I wouldn't be doing this to you. And so judges have the impossible task of figuring out, should that protection order be granted, should it not be granted. And one of the challenges, too, is that people may not always recognize that what they're living with is really significant abuse.

And I am not the person to tell them that their story is exactly as I see it. But I do have a duty to talk about what is the situation they're in. I said to them once, can you tell me if your spouse was abusive? It's not abusive. Okay. We go on. And then I come back and I say, can you help me understand what, when you guys would disagree, what would it look like?

What would it look like if I was to be there? What would I see? Oh, you get really impatient with me through the coffee. can at me through a mug once. It was my favorite mug and that broke. Yeah, it feels like I spend too much time with my sister. So I haven't been able to see my sister in three months. And if he knew I was here, he would cut up my bank card. Okay, every one of those statements is about abuse. They're all abuse relationships. But then how do you reach the client for the very basic goal of having them take steps to keep themselves safe? Right?

you're not in their home, and a protection order is not a bulletproof cape. It's just a piece paper. And if people want to respect it, which I think they should, they will. And if not, they're just going to walk right through it. So then it becomes about trying to gently say, what I want to let you know is what you're describing to me is very concerning behavior. I'm concerned for your safety. And can we talk about a plan where you can be safe? because separation is change, change is anxiety, that person's going to feel like they're losing control. And when we're losing control, we're not going to our highly functional strategies of maybe I should meditate more and read myself Help Book. We're going to the really dysfunctional

strategies. I'm going to lash out at you even more. I'm going to drink even more. I'm going to smoke even more cigarettes. I'm going to drive even faster. And that to me seems deeply critical that the client has a plan that is sound and that there's a plan A and a plan B and a plan C and getting them connected to resources. Again, letting go of our own egos, not thinking that we have to be there everything, right? I don't need to be a client's everything and that we actually have really great resources in our community that can provide assistance. Do you have pets at home? Has your spouse ever threatened to harm the pet? Because that's a really effective strategy to control. Okay. So if you need to flee, can you bring your dog?

You know, where is the kibble going to be kept and who's going to keep clothes for you so that you have clean undies for three days? Or do you have many to flee? Okay. What does that look like? So it's a very different job than they teach you about in law school, right? Yeah. And they never talk about that component of it and having to have those really tough conversations. And unfortunately, I think in many ways we're doing a disservice to future law students because it's we're making it sound and this isn't trying to be mean to any of my my other law student friends but law school is a lot easier than it was when you were in law school because because we only go from 930 to 1230 during our we have we have a few days so it was Wednesday and Friday that I would go from like 9 to 330

but that was two days a week and the rest of the week it was like 9 to 1230 and then I was done for the whole day. Wow. And so it is, and I'm not saying that the readings are easy and that the concepts aren't hard to grasp. I do agree that that is there. It's a challenge. It's a good challenge. But we're telling the law students the law school is still as hard as it was 10 years ago. And that isn't the case. And that's okay that it's not the case, but we're not preparing them for these conversations. And but you know what? When I was in law school, we were, I was going to say we weren't having these conversations, but that's not true. Because I did take, you know, advanced family law and mediation courses and that really made a difference.

But I do think from a wellness perspective, we actually need to be having these conversations because how do you take care of yourself when you are always hearing this? How do you genuinely take care of yourself so that it doesn't weigh you down so that you don't feel hopeless? of that you have joy to bring back to your family, that you genuinely feel joy in your own

life. And those are conversations that as a general profession, we haven't had much success with. Yeah, I would say that the counterpoint that I think a lot of my peers might make is that we may get a little bit of that in third year taking those types of courses. And they might argue, we'll get it in our article. We'll get it there. And it's like, that's the worst time to learn these types of skills because there is somebody in a lot of law firms that's looking you to bill hours. And the expectations aren't that you take care of your mental health and make sure that you're training your clients with the utmost respect and making sure that you have these things in your mind. It's the goal of making money. And that's happening way more, I would say,

in Vancouver. Yes. But it's still always- It's very pervasive. Yes. And so I think these are all concerns that we need to have at the forefront of our mind. Well, and I think it really influences is if we're thinking from that perspective, it influences what type of environment we work in. So Vail is a small firm, and that's very intentional for me because I frankly would rather make less money and have a team at my office that respects me deeply.

I deeply respect them, and that we actually take time to have those conversations. So last year somebody came into our office was not well and started yelling at one of the staff and really ripping into them. And it got resolved. But she came into my office and she picked up the dog because I bring the dog to the office and just said that actually really, really upset me. She just sat on the couch and we were just there together.

I'm not a therapist, so I don't have any words of wisdom of how to untramatize her. but that she knows that work needs to, we all know that work needs to stop to do reasonable care for one another and ourselves. And I think you're right. And in big firms, there is not room for that. And I make space for the possibility that somebody else would say, I don't need to consider that. That's not part of my framework.

And so they actually just may be better suited to be working in that big firm environment. I highly doubt it. I don't know if it's healthy for anybody, but that's just my perspective. And other people would find it really competitive and they love competition and would really help them strive for what they see as professional excellence. And so that would be right for them. But I would never be the competitor for their little cubicle. Awesome. Well, let's move in a little bit to you coming to Chilliwack and starting to practice because you started at Ann Davis.

transition society? Yeah, I worked at another firm here in Chilliwack, and then within two years I had my first child. And so I stepped back from practice, and then I was the legal advocate at Ann Davis when Bobby Jacob was the executive director. Fantastic. And so, you know, being an advocate, as you know, right, you give legal information. I gave legal education and legal support. I didn't give legal advice and legal representation. And it was actually really amazing. It was a great job to do. I worked with nine therapists and they really had a huge impact on my practice long term, learning about depression, learning about anxiety, learning about suicidal ideation and just, you know, one of the biggest things I took away was that anger is actually one of the

most common symptoms of anxiety and depression and that we essentially, I believe in our society have an epidemic of men who are depressed and anxious and are not getting treated. I firmly believe that. I 100% agree. I think I'm seeing it more and more where we just don't feel like a lot of men don't feel like they have a role and it's a very complex issue. There's a lot going on there and we're having a really tough time having long form discussions about it. where it isn't one side or the other side. And I think that's a real problem. It's huge.

And so it was a really great way to work holistically. I was the first lawyer they'd had as an advocate. And so I had stepped away from practice. So I was non-practicing with the law society. But, you know, I would be able to go to one of the therapists and say, listen, so-and-so was doing really great work and really getting all their documents together. I've asked them about this, this aspect of parenting, and they're really stonewalling and they're not coming in. I'm seeing a lot of, like, there's something really sensitive there for them.

Can you work with them on that? And then the therapist would work with their client and help them to explore that in a way that was appropriate for a therapist and not appropriate for an advocate or a lawyer. And then they come back to me ready to do work. It was really fantastic. It was really fantastic work to do. I enjoyed it. Wow, that must be, do you still have that now in your practice where you have therapists that you are able to help? Kind of like I had Brett Kintella on the podcast and he talked about how he has a community of people he works really well with.

And he tries to not force it on the client, but say, hey, these are some people I've worked with in the past and they're incredibly helpful if you want their information. Is that something you are still able to offer? For sure, because I do think people will get through a family law dispute more affordably, more efficiently, and with their dignity intact. If they actually are working with a therapist on the things they should be working with a therapist on, then they're much more likely to give me instructions. So certainly, because we do have great therapists here in Chilawak and beyond. And I will sometimes say, you know, will, if something's coming up, I'll say, could you, you know, will you give me permission to speak to your therapist? And so what I want to talk to your therapist about. I'm not entitled to hide anything from my client and I don't intend to.

And then to call the therapist. And if I have their written consent and the therapist has written consent, just say, I think this person is really struggling around the parenting language. This is what we've been talking about. Do you have some seeds for me, some nuggets for me that would be helpful? Or can you work with the client on this? So absolutely, that's really important. We actually want people to be well at the end of this. And in order to do that, we need to slay our own ego dragons, right?

Do you have any one in particular in the Fraser Valley that you might be able to recommend? Because there may be people who are considering taking a first step or just want support in thinking through these decisions that they might have someone who you've worked with or know who's... Sure. Yeah. I really like Teresa McKenzie. She does a lot of work with young people and children. And if I'm incorrect, she will tell me in describing her practice. But I think her therapeutic practice is really about engaging. children and young people to own their voice in a way that's healthy and productive and supporting that. I think she does incredible work. Do you know what it's called? I don't. I'll have to look at it later and give you some feedback. Jane Katz, always been one of my favorites. I think she's semi-retired. has that real ability to give you the hard truths about yourself without shaming you, you know, and I think that that's really key.

So there's two for you. I'm really hoping to have someone on from that area because I know that a lot of people, when they hear about counseling and psychology and all these things, is they think of talk therapy, which is very common. And usually how you start as you go in and you talk. But that isn't all the tools in the chamber. I know EMDR is incredibly helpful. There's different techniques and there's different tools you can use to get help and start

to resolve those issues within you and that's not often shared. And I think the unfortunate thing for the counseling community and launch any professional community is that they don't know how to advertise themselves. I agree. And so one of the problems is if you go through counseling, it doesn't say these are the 10 different therapies we offer. It's often the normal ones you think of. just choosing your favorite name out of a list and that's not how it is.

How do people choose Stephanie Visser? You would really like her from Abbotspur because I think she also uses a lot of modalities. So I'll get you her contact information. But you're right. How do people choose a therapist? And frankly, I don't think my therapist should even necessarily be a person I like. I think it should be somebody who is prepared to sit with me and has the ability to communicate to me hard truths that they're seeing. that I'm not seeing. Because if I haven't figured it out at this point, if I'm not seeing this

pattern, I don't think 10 years of Freudian talk therapy is actually going to help me out. Absolutely. That's very expensive. And I don't think I have that much time, you know? Absolutely. And so you're at Ann Davis. It's at Ann Davis. And then so from there. So I decided, I felt like I had grown the family law advocate section as much as I could. And I really couldn't do anything else with it. And even though I never thought I would say it, it was really missing law. Nancy Harold, who is a Titan in family law here in Chiluac, I had recommended that another young lawyer go and work with her. And I thought, Anuk,

if you really think that Nancy's all about to work with, why didn't you take the advice you gave somebody else? So those two didn't end up working together. And then I just called Nancy and said, you know, I think we should get together for lunch. Yeah, let's get together. And We just had a brief lunch and agreed that we would work really well together and just sort of did this Coles notes like, oh, we could work together like this. Yes, I think we could. Oh, okay, I'm going to start January 3rd. And she said, you don't want to wait. No, I want to start right now. So, and so then I came back in January 2013. And we went through different iterations and Vail Family Law became Vail Family Law in 2015. or 16 and then Nancy retired in 2016. I still ask her to come back and she still comes to the office, which I'm really happy about. And I always do everything I can to get her to come out for our Christmas celebrations. And each year she says, I'm so happy to be here, but I don't know why you keep inviting me. Well, because I love you and you are part of this team. Wow. So 2016 was when

you did the podcast. Can you give us a little bit of background about that sure it's called um this the swear jar because i do actually swear a lot uh in my personal life and um who can talk about family law and all the struggles and frankly in any field of law without throwing around some swear words right yeah and i was you know my dad was a yankee liberal so swear words were just fine and my mom was francophone catholic so the more you swear the closer you are to god like that's just how it goes for us so i was like primed to be a hoodlum so um i'm I had a junior lawyer working with me at the time, and we just thought a podcast of us discussing family law would be really helpful because I actually think family law is a really interesting

topic, and it's so overwhelming for people. And I actually don't think people want to go in, read a blog that takes them 30 minutes to read. I read all day long for work. I'm typing. I'm reading. I actually don't want to read a blog. but I wouldn't mind listening to a podcast in short snippets that would help me build my knowledge

about something. So that's how it came about and it was a lot of fun. And then life got busy as it does and then that associate went on to do other things and we did different iterations. It's something that I still want to do. And in fact, I had started a podcast just last year. I had done a few interviews to break. down into four episodes um for um one of our law organizations and um for small small and

solo practitioners and then because i said hey you guys want to start a podcast i could i could try that out and i'll send it to you guys and if you don't like it my ego's not going to be bruised tell me what you want different i'll do different and um but the national organization said no how you build a small a podcast for your small and solo practice is you just say send us your ideas. And then we pay somebody to do the podcast for you guys. And I was like, no, no, because actually small and solo practitioners are different. We're different. And this is about us having a dialogue where we are connecting with one another's about the hardships and joys and curiosities and fun stories about having small and solo practice. So that didn't take off.

but I might re-look at it in another iteration because I find it really rewarding. And I love that podcasts are so popular now. It reminds me of like the 1940s when families would sit in the living room and listen to the radio dramas. And there are actually now radio dramas on podcasts. There's something very nostalgic about it.

Absolutely. I think that the growth just goes to how empty social media is in terms of quality of communication, sincerity, and that was kind of my motivation was, I have a lot of thoughts, I have a lot of opinions, and I think that there's a lot of great people out there, yourself included, that we're not hearing from on a larger stage where we can take some time and actually have a real conversation because I enjoy seeing my friends, but if it's for an hour, I don't know anything more about them by the end of our time together, because it's just not enough. time. We're not, we're on a walk and then there's cars and there's so much going on that you're not

able to focus. Yes. And so I think that this is a good way of resolving it. And your podcast was great. I did listen to, I listened to it now. I got a lot of ideas on what questions to ask. Good. And so I'll lead into my next one, which is you have worked in family law. And one of the problems is being able to pay for it. Isn't that wretched? Yes. And it runs into a lot of problems because people look for legal aid. And one of the things you mentioned is that it's often given, but in emergency circumstances, not as a more holistic, let's get these people resolved and get them out the door so they can go live their lives. Now, one of the great things with legal aid is legal aid will, so if you have a legal aid certificate, so you've been given X number of hours,

they will allot some of those hours towards mediation, which I think is a really great use of those public dollars, but that's the rub, isn't it? How does somebody pay your $5,000 retainer and how do they pay more, understanding that the other person's still fighting with them? Like, in your own mind, how to resolve the conflict might be straightforward. But if the other person has a different idea, you're going to be in this for a while. So it's incredibly expensive. I know one of the things we talked about before was where to is pro bono fall in family law. Family law files are absolutely without a doubt, not conducive to pro bono work. And I won't do them. And I remember you saying that on there. And it was like,

it was like, super clear. It was a point you made. And it was just once you said it, it was like, obviously. And it was that when relationships are falling apart and the relationships are coming to an end, neither of them is motivated without money involved. Having to pay that money and having to go forward and I never even thought of that as like a one of the motivators you use is saying you're paying for my services you want this to stop right and so we'll resolve the issues and then you don't have to pay me anymore and they don't have to pay their lawyers anymore but when it's being funded by legal aid one of the problems you run into is there isn't a motivation for the fighting to end there is no I mean I do think that many people want the fighting to end in general

but if that isn't a strong motivator for you and there's no dollars out of your pocket. It can legitimately be incredibly empowering to know that your lawyer is going to go to court and fight about how so-and-so did wrong. And I don't minimize the legitimacy of the power of somebody giving voice to your concerns. The problem is that money is a huge motivator. So even if, I don't know what kind of mail I'm going to get about this one, but we'll see. You know what If all somebody can afford is $10 an hour to pay towards their legal fees, then I respectfully think that they should be paying that under the legal aid system because it is an incredible motivator because what you're asking me to do might require 20 more hours of my time.

So are you prepared to commit 200 of your precious dollars because they are precious to you and that's not a bad thing. You have that money assigned to go somewhere and it's needed. So is the fight that you're asking me to engage in that necessary? I think that that's the perfect pin to pop a balloon, which is that government programs are perfect for everything. And we should just, if we just had more money, then all family law disputes would be resolved peacefully. And if we just made a bigger program, it's not saying that legal aid isn't a tool that is absolutely necessary. But this mindset that if we just invested more money into the legal aid, then all the family law disputes would disappear.

No, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't. No, because there are always going to be family law disputes. Well, and it's like paying for therapy by going in and having a judge reaffirm or reaffirm the other side, and you getting that pleasure out of it, which is the judge is getting mad at this person for showing up late. I'm loving this because they're losing. Now you're just playing like a sport where you're attacking the other side and you won today and next week they lose. and it's just an ongoing cycle where they're not looking to, I've spent this, like, I've spent

$15,000. I need this to end. Right. And there are people who use legal aid time really wisely. And there aren't. And there's nothing we can do about that. And I don't actually propose that we get rid of all legal aid because some people use it unwisely.

I don't think that's helpful. Absolutely. But family law is hands down, not suited to pro bono files because what people don't realize when they're saying, can you? you work for me for free, it's not that I'm working for you for free, I'm actually paying to work for you because staff need to be paid and, you know, the rent needs to be paid and the law society fees need to be paid. So it's not that any of the costs necessary for going into your file go away because I'm not billing you. What it means is that I'm now paying out of my own pocket.

and one unpaid bill, one big unpaid bill can undo a small firm if they are not managed carefully. So I manage my firm carefully and I'm good at saying, no, I will not. And I had to say to a client once who I'm sure felt that they had financial hardship, but by comparison to the people who do have financial hardship, had none. And I just said, I need to be very clear with you. At no point in our work together, will your file become a pro bono file in my office? And at no point will I discount your file? You know, pro bono work in my mind can be done in other ways. So reaching out to the community, doing family law presentations for school counselors, for Chilliwack Community Services, frontline workers, for family doctors. Family doctors

are the front lines of family law because they're going to see my client months, perhaps years before I do and know that there are issues because their clients talking about it with them. And so do they have the resources? Do they understand what the order means when it says you need to produce this documentation? Do they understand the request from the client when they say, oh, could you write a letter to the judge? Like, not helpful, you know? So those are ways that I really like to give back because it actually, I think it's fantastic. I get to sit. with 15 family doctors and answer any questions they have about family law, share with them what I think is important, and they get to impact potentially a countless number of our families.

Increased knowledge means increased access to resources, which means increased peace for our families. That's what I want to see. That's awesome, and that's kind of a theme throughout your biography on veil family law. And so let's also talk about your work as the community representative for the City of Chilawak's safety committee. Oh, that was so fun. PISA, Public Safety Advisory Committee. There we go. So I applied, I think back in 2011 or 2012 because the city will put out publications,

hey, we're looking for community members to come and sit on City of Chilawak boards. And I thought, well, even though I'm an introvert, I'm a chatty, Kathy. I've got things to say. I can offer opinions. And I remember being interviewed by Chuck Stam and talking about how the fact that I'm, I'm not from Chilawag. And I said, listen, I kind of have the same approach I do in my consult. If you don't want to hire me, that's okay. And I said, listen, I share my opinions and sometimes I swear.

He was like, excellent. And I just thought, well, isn't that nice? I mean, to me, we would be very different people. And so I sat on that board for six years and I learned a lot. I learned a lot. I don't even know where to start with what I learned. So let me try and grasp that. You know, I think people complain a lot about the city.

The city isn't doing this or the city isn't doing that. And some of the things I learned were our city counselors work really. really, really hard. I don't always agree with the decisions that our city administration makes, but I know that they really grapple with the issues and try to come to the right decision. I know that if you send a letter to the city with a concern, it's going to go to the committee that it's supposed to, and they're actually going to discuss it because we did that many times that there are no easy solutions to the really hard questions for our community and that the city grapples with them at least when I was on the you know the public safety

advisory committee grappled with them continuously with heart trying to meet everybody's needs and what can our city do what can we do to protect our city what can we do to protect our citizens to make this a really vibrant place. So I left there appreciating the hard work. When Chuck Stam was working on it, when that was his committee to govern, we had had different questions percolating, like what are the big projects we want to work on? And one was family violence. And I said to him, you know, the issue of family violence is not philosophical. It's really practical and it actually has really practical solutions and it is actually a um it's a legitimate community concern because if we have violence in our families we have unstable families we have

unhappy families and that means we have unstable workplaces we have unstable employment situations like it there's a huge ripple effect and i loved his response he just opened the door for me and said great we're going to have two subcommittees now run that subcommittee and i thought i love your invitation to responsibility and capacity. And that was a lot of what I saw. So, I mean, they were really fantastic. There was a point when my son started school, I would have to bring my son to the meetings. And we were in our two subcommittees. And my subcommittee was the smaller subcommittee. And the bigger committee would go to the smaller boardroom because my son would be playing and they wouldn't want to interrupt him and they didn't want him to like have to pick up

all his toys and and you know and then if we were in a closed meeting okay well here's some coloring for you you can go sit over here and but they were so accommodating they were what we want our communities to be okay we have um this community member on our board and she's a mom and she needs to bring one of our kids the solution isn't to say well you can't be on the board, it's to say, how do we welcome her children? So I was just very deeply impressed. I really like Chuck Stam. I hope to have him on at some point in time because his experience as city councilor for those years. Absolutely. Jason Lum. Absolutely. Hats off to Jason Lum. I've been too intimidated to add him to any of the groups just because. No, you should. You should. And I just

thought every, every meeting we were in, his, to be super honest, every meeting we were in, nothing else was was too important to distract him and he was like committed okay we're in this what are we doing to solve this problem i was deeply impressed and that's not why i went into it i just thought well i am a bit of a busy body as somebody accused me of being the other day i thought yeah excellent i want to participate in my community if i want a better community if i want a healthy community i have personal ownership of that absolutely and so that was part of it and And I just, it was a fantastic experience. Well, and you're like a gatekeeper to what's really going down on the front ends of people's relationships.

And if you're seeing more people coming in because they're separating, you're aware of those things, depression, anxiety. You're obviously dealing with the most extreme circumstances at some points. And so it's important that we have that voice heard in government. And so I'm so happy that they chose you and that Chuck chose you for that role because that is what, a person we need in that room is a person who's aware of what's going on in the homes of our community. And they had everybody at the table. I just thought it was a really thoughtful structure. There would be a representative from ICBC for road safety. There would be police. There would be fire representatives. Somebody from the school board, somebody from the Business

Improvement Association. It was a big table. And I mean, the questions they were grappling with often were really big and that they tried you know the morning i woke up to learn that that trump had been elected the u.s president i was legitimately depressed i just did not think that would happen and i got up and i went to that meeting super early and everybody was there ready to tackle the problems and i was so buoyed by that i just thought oh my gosh i feel like the world is going to hell right now because trump was elected and you're all just putting that aside ready to say how do we serve our community what can we do to make our community better and i thought this right here is like the manifestation of hope that's what it really felt like

to me it was the panacea to my depression uh from from trump being elected and so it brought me a lot of gifts. And I was really appreciative just to see how hard everyone worked. Sue not. She was on there and I, you know, show up every morning at 7.30. I did petition successfully to have the meeting later. Some people were happy. That's awesome. But that does go to the exact point, which is one of the reasons I started this was because we connect way too much with what the Kardashians, with Trump, and what Kanye West is doing that we forget that there's enough going on here that we have enough load to carry right here at home. It doesn't matter what they're doing. It doesn't, you don't have to look to them to get guidance on how to make your community better.

If you're waiting for Trump's idea on how to fix your community, it's just not going to happen. But if you listen to you or Chuck Stam or local community members, they'll tell you what some of the problems are. And they'll tell you how to take action in your own. little way. It's not going to be to run for president. It's going to be something local, some small step you can just add into your regular routine to help, whether it's donating to legal aid or trying to create a fund to help people. There's lots of different ways to be a part of the solution. I agree. I do feel like one of the things that social media has done is it's sort of become an anesthetic to life. And so that people are forgetting that we can be in.

involved in our community in big and small ways. And the work that we do in that regard will almost always give you back so much more, whether it's meeting your new best friend or feeling like you made a difference, tackling a problem with somebody else or using, you know, getting to the end of your day and saying, I actually used my time really productively today. You know, those are all good things and that you actually get a sense of community. It's one of the things I love about living in Chilwack. I live downtown in the hood and I like it because you know what, I don't need to put on any airs. I know most of my neighbors and, you know, we'll just knock on a door and say, well, Marin made some cookies. Would you guys like some? Or they'll come by and say, I noticed somebody in

your driveway the other day, and I didn't really like that. So I asked them who they were. You know, the idea of being neighborly is it's kind of this almost antiquated notion, but it's actually really important for us if we want to have a sense of belonging, you know, that I'm actually trying to get to Safeway, but it takes me 15 minutes to get in the car because my really lovely neighbors Joe and Judy walk by with their amazing dog and we catch up a little bit or they say, oh, you put up a new fence. We really like the fence. How are you doing? You know, particularly in COVID. I thought, gee, I should have put a fence up years ago because they're like lean against the fence and it creates this like natural like six foot barrier kind of. But to touch base and to

say how how are you doing? Not that superficial stuff that, you know, the gloss that we create in law, but how are you? How are you? How are you? grandkids. How are you guys finding it? How does it feel not to be working right now, you know, touching base with neighbors? I love that about Chilliwack. I've never lived anywhere longer. Yeah. Well, that's awesome. And that's a true ambassador to somebody who finds the value in that. And I think that is sobering for people to be able to make a real connection that there isn't an agenda, that there isn't, well, they're just my boss. And all of our relationships

are becoming superficial. One of the most brightening part of COVID for me, was seeing, driving along the border and seeing all the people sitting there, having conversations on two sides, following the rules of the law, and connecting. And it was like, why isn't this on every newspaper? Why isn't this where we're kind of figuring out the value in simplifying and getting back into just staying in your community? There's lots to do, whether you're in Langley, Abbotsford, Vancouver, there's lots of different communities you can build to be connected. Yeah, and we have forgotten how to be connected. And an upstanding community member.

Yeah, just really to be engaged. I think it, you know, aside from any accolades or attention that someone might get for that, it gives deep personal meaning and joy to say, you know, to be able to say to my kids, I'm really trying to make a difference. I am trying in my small way to make the world better, to make it kinder, to make it genuine. And that that, I think, is great role modeling for them. And I think there's lots of pockets of that in Chilliwap, actually. I think there's just, there's a lot of thoughtfulness.

There's, you know, there's some grandstanding and naysayers, and that's fine. We need dialogue from everybody. But I think there's really wonderful contributions in this community. Awesome. Well, let's end it off with a little bit about your business and about who you work with and what a day in the life at Vail family law looks like. Oh, gosh. Okay. So I have a wonderful associate name, Aaron, who is just fantastic and hardworking. I'm really proud of her. And our assistant Devin is going to start his articling in September. So we're really excited for him. And then we have Terry, who is the voice of Vail. She's generally the person people are. going to hear when they call and the first person they see when they come in. And someone once called her our den mother. And she definitely is. Like, she's just taking care of us and loving all of us. And she's one of my favorite people. That's how I coped with COVID. I would walk to her house,

walk to her house all the time. And I would, like, leave things behind the planner, like carrot cake I made the day before, or I don't know, be like, oh, I thought you would like this. I left it behind the planner or she'd stand in the doorway and I'd stand at the end of the walkway and we'd talk she's just one of my most favorite people and we were talking the other day what's going to happen if COVID shuts down we got to shut everything down well I'm going to walk to your house every other day again and that's what we're going to do you know yeah she's fantastic so what does a day in the life of our office look like well you know it's kind of topsy-turvy because of COVID so we've reopened the office um and where we try not to

be there at the same time. And though if I'm not there, Aaron's there. So there's generally a lawyer in the office. If Dev's not there, Terry's there. And we also have a spectacular bookkeeper Linda who comes in, you know, when it works for her, right? So what does it look like in our office? To be super honest, a day in my life at Vale looks like I have two big screens. My dog is trying to get treats from me or treats from Terry. He loves Terry or he's sitting on Aaron's slab or he's sniffing through the bag that Devin brought in the hopes that some of his amazing cooking is like accessible to him. So that's what coffee would be doing, the dog. And I am, everybody knows I get to work when I have my headphones on and I have Netflix going.

That's how you work. That's how I work. I have a very busy brain. And I've learned, I learned when I was in law school that I have auditory attention deficit and my best friend from law school said to me one day, and she was so courageous in saying this to me. She said, you know you have ADHD, right? And I said, what? You are so ADHD. I know. I have a brother has ADHD. So she brought me to where I could get tested and I had no idea. So now I have a better understanding of my really busy brain. And I pay attention to all sounds. So it becomes super distracting. And so if I can pick a show wisely, then it just keeps that part of my brain occupied so I can really focus on my work. That's so weird. I think I'm in the same boat as you

because I usually write papers and I'll have like the office on in the background. Right. Because it's just easier for me. Like for me, it just always feels like I get a creative idea on how to structure the conversation in that weird background of my mind. Right. Yeah. Walking Dead is great for me because I don't actually want to see the gore. And so that screens over here, but you hear this. And I'm like, okay, I know the zombies are coming and somebody's going to be dead. I'll have to take a peek in like 60 seconds. But then I'm like, okay, zombie, zombie, zombie. And let me finish off this affidavit. So if it's just me working in my office, that's what it looks like because I'm just really genuinely curious about all the noise that's going on around me. Oh, what was Terry talking to? I just heard coffee walking down the hall. What is he doing? Is he getting into trouble again?

Oh, no. Is he bugging Aaron? Aaron? Is coffee bugging you? I'm really. sorry. So it's a way for me to focus. And honestly, my door is literally and figuratively always open because people are always coming in. I got a question. So I do lots of this. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. Right. And so. And I'm like, oh, this could be a big conversation. Then I just take the earphones off. But I wish I had known much younger that that's what I needed to focus because, yeah, what would have would have been a lot less suffering. But that's what it is. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be in a big firm in Vancouver and try and operate that way. You can't? Yeah. You can't. And I, yeah, I can't. And actually having my dog at the

office, I started bringing him last September because I was in the summer, I was there like every day, every weekend. And I thought, well, I can't leave him at home. And I noticed that when he would come to the office, he was actually quieter than he is at home because at home he's really yappy. And it actually just lifts everybody's spirit, our spirits, and it helps our clients to see, we're just people. You know, we're not perfect. We're not sterile. We're just people. And I remember somebody sitting in my office, and I really thought that this guy's going to have a heart attack. And my dog's not a therapy dog. Like, he does growl at people if he feels like growling because he's little and he's like, don't touch me, you're a giant. I said, Tim, do you like dogs? He said, yeah. I said, well, just

hold on to coffee. And you could just see him settle in. Like that little six pounds, you know, made him feel safer. And I want people to feel safe in that space. I want them to feel welcome. I want my team to feel joy and gratitude. If you were peeking into our office on Wednesday, you would have seen Devin and I throwing foam burritos at each other. That did happen because, you know, some firms are like, oh, it's Friday.

Let's all have a whiskey. I'm not a drinker. If people want to drink, I don't judge it. But that's not a requirement for being on our team. So instead, once a month, we do board games and potlucks. So I got a new board game, throw a throw burrito. And I said, do you want to take it home and try it? Because the kids and I won't have a chance.

And so I was like, oh, I get to throw this. I was like, yeah, just throw it at me. It'll be really therapeutic. That's awesome. So this is what happens when you're the boss. One of your staff members throws one burrito at you. You have two burritos and then you throw them both at him. And I'm like, that's how it goes.

That's awesome. So, yeah, that's our firm. We're on Leca Cuck, you know, beside the Safe Way. Yeah, in Chilac. Yeah, just above Coast Capitol. Yeah, and we have our boardrooms separate from our office so that when we have meetings that they're private and people feel that sense of privacy,

our boardrooms really, we've tried to make it really relaxing and welcoming. So, like our firm, we have lots of art up. Terry will tape together my kids' art and put it on the walls at the firm. She loves them. She's so good to them. That's awesome. Is there any other small businesses throughout the valley that you'd like to give a shout out to and tell us a little bit about? Oh, sure. Well, one of my favorites would be actually E. Young on Wellington. And I love Chilson. And she's the wife. This is a family-run foe business. And I think they've been here in Chilwack for 17 years. They're the original foe for Chilwack. And you know, I've

been going there since I came here. And they've watched my children grow. Chelson always knows when I'm sick because my solution is to eat their fa broth. So I'll call Evan and be like, oh, Evan, I'm sick. Can I get two bowls of broth? And they're just super welcoming and kind. So I remember it was the only restaurant I would bring my son to when he was little, my ex-spouse and I, because I knew that Chilson wouldn't be mad if my son screeched with joy or cried a little or made a mass just so kind. So that's a big one. Another man, another one is the book man. Like who doesn't love Amber Price and the bookman, right? She leans hard into this community. And it's better for that. I mean, phenomenally better. So I love Amber. And I love the bookman. And another one would actually be

a business, another law business, so it's Alpine Legal Services, and it's run by Chanel Prasad, who is newer to Chilliwag. And I just love his, I love his business model and his approach. I think there's similarities. It's very different work than us. He does solicitor's work, but just in all my engagements with him, I really feel like he's really interested in offering good value for reasonable dollars and, you know, streamlining his business so that the costs aren't any larger than they need to be. And he's really funny and he's really smart and I'm so happy that he's part of this community now. That's awesome. Could you give a little bit about what solicitors work looks like so people know what they can expect? Okay. So, you know,

we often just talk sort of in layman's terms about solicitors and Barristers, right? The old English language. And so barristers are the ones that go, we like to think of ourselves as the dragon slayers. We go to court and duke it out. And then the solicitors are the ones who are getting together the business deals and helping with the contract work. And most of us here, you know, in England it's different, are barristers and solicitors, right? So in family law, you would write the separation agreement. So, yeah, he is working with people on business transactions, on property purchases, a whole, of things. And he's just so to the point, he used to be an accountant. And I'm like, really, you would quit accounting to become a lawyer? Let's talk about that. So he's brilliant, I think, objectively. So. And the bookman still has cats, correct? They do have cats. They have a new, I don't, I'm going to trust that Nietzsche's doing well, but there has been a new cat about town. And, you know, through all of COVID, I mean, hats off to Amber and and her team. because they have worked so hard.

I mean, COVID's been hard on everybody. I think it's been emotionally exhausting. And even though I'm assuming it's emotionally exhausting for Amber 2, she has really tried to stay. How can we stay connected? How can we stay open? How can we help you feel like you're having a normal day just in your life with a simple joy of a walk to the bookstore?

And she has it all set up really well. So kudos to her. Kudos to all the businesses in Chilawak that are finding a way to make it work because that's no easy shake, is it? I can't imagine what it would be like to try and rearrange your business to cut the amount of money you have coming in if you're trying to sell products that people need to try on. Like I think of Garrison Running Co. And I can't imagine what it's like right now trying to get people to try on shoes in this environment where, no, we don't want you trying on 10, 12 different pairs of shoes. Don't touch anything. Just look at the shoe, focus on the shoe.

Do you feel connected to the shoe? That's your shoe. Let's go. Goodbye now. Exactly. But their, like, their hallmark is to make it so personal and to say, like, well, you're leaning a little bit and we need to work on this and we need to make sure that this works. And it's like, we're not even letting people touch things right now.

How does that business thrive during these times? Yeah. How do you meet with your clients? How do you keep your business running so that your staff? have confidence that they're still going to have a job and they're still going to be able to pay their bills and, you know, those really modest things that are at the forefront of a small business owner's mind, how do I keep my people employed, how do I show them that I appreciate them for all that they're doing? And, you know, COVID has been an incredible test. I don't know

about you, but for me, it's helped me evaluate who is in my family system and I, and I, and I choose that as like genetically connected family and chosen family. And is that the right system for me and who is in my work family? And I've come to the conclusion that I have the best work family that I could have and that everybody's doing their best. And I don't think everybody gets to say that. And it's took me a lot of years to get there. But I'm just so deeply delighted that if I have to be going through the upside down of COVID, that I'm doing it with this team. I mean, we're always finding a way to laugh at ourselves and laugh together, which makes it better. And to find out, yeah, actually, my family team's pretty good too, you know, when you spend like day

after day after day, say that 15 more times and then say with your kids. And you realize, I really like those little people. Yeah. I really like them. Well, that's got to be so unique for you that you've built this, this kind of mini empire for yourself that is stable and that has survived a pandemic and that is working through it. And you have people that you actually want to see even during the pandemic and you want to go see them even outside of the work office. Oh, I do. I do. You know, some people are saying, oh, I love working from home. And I actually thought I'd be one of those people. And I love my kids. I think they're brilliant people.

I actually don't want to be at home with them and working. And I've learned that I love being in the office. And June, when we opened up, I can't even say like my emotional happiness quota went up significantly because just the normalcy and the peace I had of being in the office, you know, to yell down the hall, hey, Deb, did we get that letter? And, you know, and Terry's shouting at me and not in a mean way. I mean, it's a small office, so it doesn't take a lot for somebody to hear you. It's not like emotional volatility.

But it's just been so good for all of us and just actually to be together has been really good for us. So I didn't, I thought, oh, I'd just love to be at home all the time because I'm an introvert, right? Yeah. It's not true. Yeah, well, it's crazy to find meaning in what you're doing. Find meaning with who you're working with because there is such relationships that are built from there. And you can say that it doesn't matter and you can say that like it's just a job. I don't have to care about the people. But it does in these moments show itself when you can have a positive relationship with your work environment and with your colleagues and have that mutual respect.

Well, and I have to say, I mean, there has been more than one occasion in COVID when their dedication and, and loyalty and commitment has actually, it's brought me to tears, just that they would say, like, this is where we want to be and we're not leaving. And we all need to make this work. And let's talk about how to divide the work since you're at home with kids 24-7. What do you need from us?

We are here for you. It was, I just, there's no words to express, like the humility of that. dedication. When you fostered that, like you helped you put that together. You hired these people. Yeah, you can hire people, but doesn't mean you make the right choices. And you can hire people and be a jerk to them, you know. But it's just so incredibly rewarding. I know it kind of sounds like a Hallmark card, but it's really true, actually. I think the reason it sounds like a Hallmark card is because it's so rare that we've gotten so accustomed to going to a job we hate with people we don't like

and then getting off of work and being like, I'm free from their nonsense, that the idea that you could have a job where everyone gets along and you want the best for each other, even if the person leaves and goes on to a different position, that you still want the best for them. Absolutely. And we've had those experiences and those people are still coming at Christmas. Yeah. It's like, why you invite me? Because you're part of our team, man.

You're awesome. Like, come on. You know, like, when you'll come into the office and Tara will be like, oh, Aaron's coming. Aaron, oh, yes. and and there it won't be like it doesn't matter it's super matters to terry that you're coming to see like coffee should i get a coffee ready for him um because we're super excited to have you there she knows i'm really excited to have you there i'm really looking forward to that time together because we just don't get that very much and so she will work to protect that time and like when you walk in the door and she's like hi aaron and you see that joy it's actually real absolutely and I imagine that that runs off onto the clients as well, where they're like, this is a place where I actually feel like I belong and that I'm heard and that.

I've had people say that a lot. I had a client email me just last week that we had a consult with. And she said, I just want you to know I called four firms before I called your firm. And Terry was the first one who communicated any amount of caring for what I was going through and just took a couple minutes to listen to what's happening. and I just want to tell you I'm so appreciative. She's a gem. I hear that all the time. It's true.

She is. And I'm glad they get that because we want people to feel safe. If you can't feel safe with us, I don't know if we can do our best work, right? But, yeah, they're really fun. Hopefully when all this crazy is over, you'll come for coffee again. Absolutely. Well, we just did basically three hours. Oh, my God.

Yeah, this room's amazing for that. It is. Could you tell people how to find you? Sure. Well, you can, I would say, you know, in normal times I'd say, come by the office and say hi, but actually now you can only come in with an appointment. So you can find us on the internet at veil family law and mediation.com. You can find us on Facebook and we're on Instagram. Not my favorite forum, but I figure if everybody's going to be on there, maybe I can drop some nuggets that will help invite them to peace.

So the best way to do is to give our office a call. Our number is 604-858-9-9-71, talk to the amazing Terry, and set up a consultation. Awesome. Well, I am so grateful to have had you on. Veil is spelled V-A-L-E. There we go. Thanks, Erin. This was a great way to spend a Saturday morning.

Thank you very much for taking the time. You're welcome. Hello, friends, and thank you for listening. The businesses we would like to mention are throughout downtown Chilawak. First, let's start with the bookmen. With locations in Chilwack in Appetford, it is a small business that offers amazing used books. This small business is all about culture and community. They have three cats named Gatsby, Beatrix, and Nietzsche.

Beatrix had a rough life on the streets of downtown Chilwaukee. The bookman searched for owners and ended up adopting her in May 2019. For the community, they offer a cat calendar for purchase to raise funds for local cat shelters. Similarly, they offer scholarships to individuals at academic levels to support reading as a passion. Please support this phenomenal local business filled with culture. Next, let's talk about Harvest Store and Cafe in the Heart of Chilwack. They partner with local vendors and businesses who specialize in ethical and sustainable practices and products. They are a family-run small business focused on bringing food that is comforting and nourishing.

They can be found on Facebook and Instagram at Harvest Store Cafe. Finally, we have Creekside Home Decker at Chilwack. This small business started in 2002 and offers a very unique, high-quality home, decor products to make your home a home. Alternatively, their products are also a perfect gift. Find them on Facebook or Instagram at Creekside Chilawak. You can follow the podcast online on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and YouTube at Bigger Than Me Podcast. As always, please support the guests we have on and the businesses we mention. It is a key that we build each other up. Thank you. You know,

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