Nuanced. - 79. Nathan Pachal: Running for Mayor of Langley City

Episode Date: October 4, 2022

Aaron asks Nathan about his work on city council, his interest in local government and his recent run to become the Mayor of the City of Langley. Aaron goes on to ask Nathan about ego, the importance of disagreeing and the role of collaboration.  Whether through his blog or by working with other members of Council, various community groups, and regional and city committees, Nathan has worked hard to bring forward awareness around intersecting components of affordable, sustainable, healthy, happy, and accessible community design.Over the years, he has written thousands of blog posts on these theme, and has helped bring world-renowned urban design speakers to the community.  As a strong supporter of agricultural and green spaces, he authored a report on the Agricultural Land Reserve entitled “Decade of Exclusions? A Snapshot of the Agricultural Land Reserve from 2000-2009 in the South of Fraser.”He believes that we need a diverse transportation system that allows people to take transit, cycle, walk, or drive throughout the entire region. He co-authored a report —“Leap Ahead: A transit plan for Metro Vancouver”— to bring awareness to the importance of accessible transit networks.  In 2010, He completed the SFU & City of Surrey Transportation Lecture Program and presented on “Complete Streets”.Support Nathan Pachal: https://www.nathanpachal.com/Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

You need people that will call you out in your life. That's really important. So lucky for me, I have people that aren't afraid to tell me when I'm being stupid. That is super, super, super important. And to be in a place where, you know, that you can accept that criticism and be like, okay, I hear you. I'm doing something stupid. Okay.

That's so important. And I never want to, like, I hope I never become. the person that surrounds myself with people that are just going to say, you're awesome. I value when people say you're not, because you need that to ground you and challenge you, right? And if you're not being challenged, you can't grow either, right? My name is Nathan Pahal. I'm currently running for mayor of Langley City, though I've served two terms as a counselor. that, I did a bunch of advocacy work in the community. I don't know how far you want to go back

because I could probably speak longer than you may care to. But I really got my start in kind of the environmental advocacy and around the idea of Metro Vancouver was sort of traditionally known throughout the world actually as a place that got it right when it came to sustainable community design, protecting green space, agriculture land, building buildings and housing right next to transit and all of that. So for me, I saw the Gateway program come out and it was like, we're going to spend tons of billions of dollars on this huge roading infrastructure. And as a, I don't know, I might have been 20 at the time, like, oh, this doesn't seem to be in the trajectory that I learned is the path we should be taking in metro, which is, you know,

investing in walking, cycling, public transit. And also, you know, learning about as soon as you build a highway, you've just basically put money into a fireplace and lit it on fire because you just get congestion the very next day. So I thought, well, I was probably just that elected officials needed some education. They just didn't have the stats. So I did some presentations, got my little PowerPoint out to counsel. I was like, here's the facts. And then I quickly learned that facts are only one part of the equation when it comes to policy and politics. So I did that. I kind of migrated a little bit more towards getting better public transit service in the south of Fraser. So I was involved with the group that was trying to reactivate the inner urban, which actually went all the way from Chilliwack, where we are right now, through to Langley City where I live, all the way to actually when I was working in downtown Vancouver before the pandemic, right to my office.

And that service was discontinued in the 1950s and replaced with a bus that kind of disappeared. we got the 66X back, I guess, after 40 years. Yeah, so that's kind of where it got started there, then kind of turned into more cycling advocacy, and then generally like how we build a Langley that's more around people, as opposed to around, you know, cars. And that was a big shift, I think, in how people were thinking at least, I don't know, 10 years ago.

So we got speakers in from, you know, Portland, Oregon and other sort of renowned experts brought them to, you know, the edge of the region and had, you know, that dialogue with city, township, staff, the public. And that was really good. And after a while, some people were like, hey, maybe you should run for the local government. You seem to be interested in this stuff. So I did that. Interesting.

So can you describe, you said you realize it's not just about stats and figures. You realize that it's far more complicated. There's people who are more likely to vote. They kind of influence how people make decisions. it's about what the community maybe wants more than what makes always practical sense. So what was kind of discovering those challenges like? Yeah, so I think one of the things you learn as well is sometimes it's also important who's saying it as opposed to what they're saying.

So if I come, you know, with the sort of shiny PowerPoint deck, you know, no one might know who I am, they'll be like, like, who's this kid? Well, isn't that cute, right? as opposed to, oh, you know, I've known Nathan, he seems like a reasonable guy. What he has to say is coming from someone that I think is reasonable, so what they're saying happens to be reasonable. And I think that's, like, one of the things that's important is building those relationships so that what you say actually carries some weight as opposed to just some random.

So that's important. And then also it's making sure that, you know, there's people that believe you that can also say, yeah, you know, I believe what he says. and those might be other leaders in the community, other members of public. You kind of need to get a broad group of people together to shift policy. Because sort of the bureaucracy kind of goes in a straight line, and it kind of has its trajectory. And at that time, it was all roads all the time. And like, I'm not against roads or anything like that.

We need them, but it was like highways, highways, highways at the time. And to shift that, it's like trying to, it's, you're adding friction and you're trying to change something that doesn't want to be changed. So you need to bring more than just your facts. You need to bring other people on board that can add pressure to actually get that change. That's the same for anything. Was that exciting to you realizing the complexity

or was it like, I wish things were the world was easier and now I have to go try and make this difference? No, I think it was, I guess it was eye-opening, but it's something that I enjoy doing. So, I mean, I think, you know, I think it's good that there is always that friction because, you know, when I think about, you know, democracy and government in general, I don't think you necessarily want it to be able to switch on a dime because, you know, I could

believe what I'm doing is the right thing. But what if there's someone else that's doing something that might be completely counter to, you know, what we believe is right or what I believe is right. Likewise, people might think what I'm doing is wrong. And you don't want to have that sort of knee-jerk change. You can think of, you know, the context of what's happening in the United States right now or even some of the stuff that's happening at the federal level. And you kind of want to make sure that government and policy slowly shifts as opposed to, you know, sort of that swing or knee-jerk back and forth. Yeah. If that makes any sense. Yeah. When did you become interested in transit and how people move around, how people are connecting? When did that become something that

you, that landed on your radar? I mean, I think it always was interested. I mean, when I was a kid, I played SimCity. I liked the original SimCity, and then SimCity 2000. I remember I didn't have a computer or a very good one anyways growing up, and my grandpa did. And I remember he was like, oh, hey, you want to buy a video game or something for Christmas? I'm like, yes, please. So I got SimCity, and whenever I visited him, I could plan his computer for hours.

So that's probably where that idea of how you connect people came together. as far as what kind of clicked for me in a big way, I was actually at Powell's Books in Portland, Oregon, which is a huge bookstore. And I was actually looking for what we now say, 2S-LGBQIA-plus material fiction. And that happened to be right across from urban planning. And there is a little bit of a, I don't know if it's a joke,

but there seems to be a strong correlation between being a member of the queer community and being interested in urban planning. And maybe we can talk about that a little bit more later, but the sort of reality was I was looking for fiction on one side, and then there was some books called, like, don't call it sprawl, and how to build sustainable communities, and they're graphic and visual, and it looked interesting,

and I picked it up, and like, this makes a lot of sense to me. This is, you know, what we should be doing to build communities. And I guess I didn't talk about it earlier, but even growing up in, like, school, they gave us a pretty strong environmental message. It's a little bit different, I think, than what it was today. But it was like, you know, conserved, the planet isn't a limitless resource. We need to do, right?

We need to live within our means. So I think all of that education from my childhood also came into play. So, yeah, a bookstore. Can you describe more of that? What is that relationship you were just sort of talking about? Yeah. So I think one of the interesting things is if you're from, and this is a broad brush. and I know that I'm not speaking for everybody, right?

But generally, if you're from kind of a marginalized community, I think you can see, you know, that there's work that you need to do to uplift people and give people equity and equality. And I think fundamentally, when we build walkable, bikeable, and transit accessible communities, that's about equity and equality. It's making sure that everybody has the same opportunities to access school, shop, services, and recreation.

If you have a community that's auto-oriented, you are actually creating an in-equal system. You're making sure that, you know, folks that, you know, have a lot of income, having a car and paying for gas, that's easy, right? Relatively easy. Where if, let's say that you are, you know, a single parent, maybe you're working two jobs,

maybe they're minimum wage. Maybe you're working one job. I don't know what the situation is. but let's say your employment's also in an industrial area like we have in Langley. Now you have to get a car. That's a huge expense on your total household burden. So if you had public transit, that gives you more income. You can either invest that in groceries or entertainment or education, right?

So I think that's fundamentally what it is when you see an unjust society. And, you know, I see that in my background, right? As a member of the queer community, I'm gay. you're like, okay, well, we need to improve that experience for folks like myself, but generally it's like, should I not be working to make an equitable and equal society for all? I think that's what it is. Yeah, there is a challenge that's existed around public transit, which is some people feel ashamed to have to take the bus. Like it, it, for the longest time was a sense of like, you don't have freedom, you don't, you aren't able to get places. If the systems

aren't effective, it's harder to get from A to B, and that can be very discouraging and cut you off from certain resources. Growing up here in Chilliwack, we've struggled for a long time with transit because you couldn't get from one side of the community to the other easily and reliably. And so it kind of disconnects communities, and what you're sort of describing is making sure that all communities can access each other and be connected. Yeah, exactly like that. And I think in Metro Vancouver now, there's been a lot of effort into making sure that transit is a viable choice for everybody. So it's not that you should feel burdened to have to take the bus.

So, I mean, I was, I think, a little bit ahead of my time, but I decided a while ago, like I owned a car before. And I said, you know what, I don't need a car. It's a lot of money for me. And where I was located in Langley City, I made a deliberate choice of being by a transit exchange, right? And I worked in downtown Vancouver or in Langley City. So it was a really easy choice for me. but I know for other people in Langley City and Langley in general, that was a challenge. And TransLink introduced services over the years, and you can see people will actually make that choice.

So, for example, not getting into the weeds specifically with you, with the roots, but we now service industrial areas. The old notions in the past was like, nobody who works in a business park, an industrial area will take a bus, right? But we've introduced that service TransLink has, and throughout the pandemic and continuing the busiest, growing roots are ones that serve industrial areas as a shift workers. So, you know, we're seeing that when you build that service, people will choose it. And even going to where we are right now, like my notions of transit in Chilliwack was like, oh, geez, am I going to have to wait an hour and a half for a bus that goes like in circles? But I took the 51. Like, it actually worked out pretty well, got off the 66X from Langley, waited 10 minutes for the 51, which is like

a direct line to where we are right now. I mean, it would be nice if it ran more than every 20 minutes, but I suppose every 20 minutes is okay. That is way better than what it used to be, which was every one and a half hours or so when I was growing up. Yeah, and that's where you get that sort of thing about you said as being like the old notion of the loser cruiser or whatever it was. I think when you have frequent service and it's just a part of your community and you've built your community around, you know, walkability,

then it's just another mode. Like, oh, well, you're taking the bus. That's cool. It's easy as convenient. It's not like, oh, you have to take the bus. Yeah. Can you describe what the early phase of deciding to run for council was like? Was it difficult?

Obviously, I don't know if you know Chilawak politics, but it can get pretty brutal at times. We had Karen Bondar run, and I think she was egregiously treated when she was running for school trustee. It's a heavy thing to put your name forward to put yourself out there and to try and build a relationship with the community when not everybody agrees. So what was that early stage of deciding to get involved like? Yeah, I think it was really important that it was other folks that suggested I should run, and there were people that believed in me. That's really important because you can't do it on it. Well, I guess you can do it on your own, but I think it would be a lot more stressful. So for me, it was really nice because I had folks that, again, believed in me and generally kind of like most of what I said. Luckily, I had the same people that would call me on the shenanigans and say, no, you're out to lunch. Nathan, don't do that. That's really important as well to have people that can speak truth to you. You really need that. But yeah, they're like, we're going to help you. We're going to be your support because, yeah, running the first time and even running like the second time and third time and

now for mayor, like it's stressful. It's very stressful. You have sleep, well, at least for me, you have sleepless nights. Yeah, you're putting yourself out there. You're making yourself vulnerable, it's really important to understand that people may not view you necessarily as like Nathan, but what I stand for. So when people are upset, like, it took me a term. But first, you know, when people are like, oh, I think ex-policy is bad, right? I kind of took that a little bit to harden a little bit personally. It's like, oh, well, do they like hate me? And I'm like, no, no, they don't hate me. They hate maybe what I stand for, which is fine, right? This democracy. And I think what really cleared it up for me was a resident approached me and was like, hey, Nathan, like, I really think your, you know, policies on X and Y are like garbage.

I'm like, okay, fair enough. He said, but I'm going to vote for you because I like the way that, you know, you try to at least engage with the community. So that sort of was really interesting to me. So what is the early stage when you're developing that first run? What do you have to plan out? Do you have to, we'll get into the mayor part later, but like, fund. raising, buying signs, what is the early process of deciding to put your name forward like? I mean, the first part is, do you have support in the community to run? I think that's really

important. And like I said, having, you know, one or two people that can help you along on your journey. That's number one. I think the other thing is, you know, generally you should have a idea of what's happening in local government. So for me, I was part of the Parks and Environment Committee for a long time. Like I said, I did advocacy. I did presentations to the council before. I was kind of active in the political space. So having that, I think before you run is probably a good thing, just to get a general understanding of how things work.

I think after that, maybe trying to find a mentor, even if it's, you know, don't expect them necessarily to say like, hey, I'm going to endorse you and I think you're all that. But, you know, say, hey, you know, you've been on council for a while. I'm thinking of running. like what is it like for you, what's your experiences, and just sort of listen and learn from them. That was really important for me and take the advice that they have, you know, on how to campaign. The campaign itself, I mean, it's like quite, it can be an operation depending on the size of your community. Like, you know, Langley is about 30,000 people, which is a different

experience than I would think of as, you know, Surrey, which is, you know, about half a million, right? So I can speak from Langley is surprisingly a larger community. BC standards, but, you know, you have to get postcards together, social media together. Hopefully, you already, again, have a bit of a presence in the community so you don't sort of like, oh, well, who's this person? I've never heard of them before. And they're like, you know, social media just showed up a month before the election. And I don't know who they are, right? So you should probably have an established presence somehow in the community. Yeah, you got a fundraise, postcards, mailing, door knocking. It's a lot.

What is that process to fundraise? It seems like probably one of the hardest parts. And for my understanding in the states, the congressional people have, it's all the time. It's all the time trying to get support, make sure that you have support for your team. What is that like on a local level? Is it less bad? Is it awkward? So good thing in BC is there was a concerted effort by government to sort of get rid of big money out of elections, which is really good. So for every municipality in BC, there's a set maximum for mayor or council. So for Langley for council, it's around $8,000. And for mayor, it's around $24,000. And people can contribute to $1,200 each, basically. The numbers aren't exactly accurate what I'm saying. Like, you know, I'm not going to be precise to the line.

So that's good. But still, it's like going to people, generally if you're running the first time, it's like, so, partner, how much money do you have? You know, hey, mom, dad, do you believe in me? Maybe you want to give me some money, you know? Hey, friends, do you think I'm cool? Can I get some money from you, right? Yeah.

So, yeah, you kind of have to do that. It's kind of like, I don't like asking for money, but that's where I would start. Maybe there's some people in the community that are like, I really believe in what you, you know, what your vision is, right? And it's like, okay, well, if you believe that, maybe you consider helping me with a donation. You know, like, you don't need tens of thousands of dollars to run for council in most municipalities in BC. Now, in Metro Vancouver, it's a little bit tricky dynamics. So if you're in some of the larger municipalities, there's like party systems and slates and stuff. And I don't know if you want to go there, but I would say for like 80% of BC, it's kind of that way.

And the party slate system. Not party slate system. So like I would assume, maybe I shouldn't assume, but in a place like Chilliwack, It could be an independent. Yeah, all of them. All of them are independent for, yeah. Yeah. We're in a place like Surrey, and, you know, again,

they could probably have a whole conversation about ward systems and size of municipalities, but if you're trying to reach half a million people, there's no way you can do that as an independent, especially with the financial limit. So you need to be part of a slate or a elector organization to get that done and be with other like-minded individuals. Interesting. But you're nowhere near that problem in Langley, right? No, I can literally, and the folks that are helping me, we can knock on like every single family home in under a month. Really?

Well, there's, so we have 30,000 people. We're 10 square kilometers. We actually are a very dense community. There's about, I think, 8,000 single family homes in the community. And then, you know, we have a ton of apartments. Over two-thirds of our community lives in townhouses are apartments. So those you have to do like Canada Post. direct mails and stuff like that. So did you enjoy that first run? Did you face any adversity? What was sort of the experience of running a campaign and obviously succeed in? Yeah.

So the first time I ran, and this is sort of a bit of a, I call it a double-edged sword. So lots of people like when younger folks run. And they're like, cool, there's a younger person. You know, they're bringing a different perspective to council. because if you look at councils in Metro Vancouver, and the people who are on there, for the most part, are good people. So I'm not trying to paint people with like a big broad brush,

but it's white, it's old, and it's guys, right? So when you have someone different running, for some people that's really refreshing, it's like, oh, cool, someone with a different perspective they can bring to the table. But then for others, it's like, hmm, like, okay, Is this person too young? Do they not have the experience necessary to serve on council?

And for me, kind of a good response was, well, I am one member of council. So there's my voice at the table, but I'm just like one of in our community. There are six other individuals, including, that includes a mayor on council. So you'll get my perspective or the inexperience or experiences that I may bring, but that's going to be, you know, metered through the folks that have been on council for. a long time. So that's sort of how you can kind of address that. But I remember

a conversation with a woman on the door once, and I said, you know, hey, I'm Nathan, I'm running for council. She's like, are you a millionaire? Like, no, ma'am, I'm not a millionaire. Well, the city has like, you know, multi-million dollar budget. So how can you be on council if you're not a millionaire? Because you don't know

how to deal with money. I'm like, well, sorry, ma'am. No one on council as far as I know is a millionaire. It's like, well, I'm not voting for you. slam the door, right? I'm like, oh, okay. So there's always people like that, but for the most part, I think people kind of like the, they call it like new blood or fresh blood. It's a weird term, but I heard that a lot. But the other thing I dealt with at the door at the time was like, are you old enough to be running? And like, I like, yeah, yeah, I'm definitely old enough to be

running. And then, you know, back of my head, I'm like, well, would I be out here in the rain knocking on your door if I couldn't run? Right. So there's that. And I think even more so is you almost have to, and this is, I think, a thing with just like minorities in general. I don't know. Have you heard of something called the model minority? So it's basically like you have to be perfect. If it's like one fault that you make, it's like everybody in your group is like that.

So, you know, if you're gay and then, I don't know, you have, I don't know, there's pictures. of you and some tort affair on the internet. It's like, see, all gay men are, you know, horrible sex addicts, right? And I'm not going to vote for them and I'm not going to vote for any gay person because, see, they're all like that. So you, it's a thing that happens with women and other folks as well, where if you're kind of the first to run, there's this thing where people will vote for someone if you're not, and this is again, sort of just based on history, if you're not entirely perfect, then you get tossed out and then it's going to be a long time before anybody else, like, you will get in again.

So it's like you have to represent and be the best for, you know, young people and gay people and, like, I'm a person of color as well. So I find it so weird to say black because I'm mixed race, but we can talk about colonialism and how they want to do black erasure, maybe on a different part of this conversation, but kind of coming to terms with, you know, black identity and, you know, all of that together. It's like, okay, well, am I standing up and have to be perfect for absolutely, like every minority that I represent, right? And that's kind of, kind of difficult. And I felt that a little bit as well, because I think of, you know, people sometimes on social media that

have been on politics for a while and maybe a bit older. They can kind of just like say their mind and, you know, they feel like there's no, you know, repercussions. But for me, I'm always like, okay, what am I saying, you know, will it be perceived negatively in the community? And even like how I act, you know, I am I, you know, too gay for Langley? That's like a real thing. So when I put forward a motion, for example, there was that horrible murders in the Orlando nightclub that happened a few years back. I guess it must be seven years now, something like that. Maybe it's a bit earlier. But a lot of communities were like, okay, we should probably raise a rainbow flag to show that our community is inclusive and we accept everybody. So for me, I'm like, well, you know, as a member of

the 2SLGBQIA community, maybe I should do something as well. But then in my mind, it's like, I don't want to be labeled as like the gay counselor because I don't want people just to see me as like the gay. I want people to say, oh, this is Nathan and, you know, he's not just like the gay. He actually cares for the community in these. He's more than that, right? Yeah. So I did put that forward. And we did pass it. Our city did get a human rights complaint by someone. And even talking to the community initially, people like, oh, Nathan, you certainly raised a lot of eyebrows. Why did you put the rainbow flag up? Like, you know, why did you need to sort of, you know, put that on display? Like, I'm okay with queer people. Like, I, but why do you need to put this in my face? Kind of thing like that, right?

And I had to have those whole conversations with people about like invisible minorities and how, you know, And they're like, well, is anything bad happened to you in Langley? I'm like, well, let me tell you, right? Have you been called like fagget and spat on and all of that just by walking on the street? Probably not. And it's sort of talking up and they're like, oh, okay, I understand why you're doing this and trying to like send these symbols out. So anyways, that's just sort of one side of the thing. And then when it was Black History Month, and I kind of learned because he didn't teach us in the education system that black people,

people existed in BC, like as far as, you know, settler history, right? It's just like, you know, the French and the British came, and then all of a sudden immigration in the 1950s, and there you go, right? We all got here. But for me, it was really eye-opening. And again, I'm not, the guy wasn't great. Like, I know he was a part of the colonial system, right? That caused a lot of hurt to people, especially, you know, indigenous people, right?

whose land we stole. But, like, it just saying, oh, there was someone who was in mixed race, right? He was black. And then how did that actually subtly, suddenly change, you know, how he governed BC even. So I learned, you know, the first militia on Vancouver Island was all black. I probably a lot of people don't know that, right? I don't know that. Yeah.

So it's just kind of learning about that. So then, like, again, I'm like, I don't want to be labeled as the minority person. But again, I was like, well, people should know this and celebrate this. So I put forward a motion on like, hey, maybe we should have some sort of thing about like, because we have like Douglas Park and Douglas, you know, Crescent and Douglas Park School and Douglas Day in Langley City. There's a lot of Douglas stuff there. Should we contextualize this a little bit? So I put forward emotion on, okay, well, let's talk about black history and, you know, who Douglas was in some of the black history, settler history of Langley. So anyways, those are sort of the things I guess that I put forward. But I'm always trying to. be careful to not be, like even in, you know, the conversation we're having right now, I hope people don't walk away with, oh, he's just an angry minority, right? Absolutely. Because that's a thing.

I agree. It is a huge challenge right now to be able to speak up and use your voice and then have people categorize you based on what talking points you chose. Was going on to counsel what you expected it to be? Was it what you'd hope it would be? Did it meet your expectations? Yeah. think so. I mean, um, with council, the good news is I had the privilege of working with others

before. Like, again, kind of talking about the advocacy I did for the community before. Luckily, I'm known more for bike lanes in public transit and I'm happy about that. And I've definitely had people like really angry at me about bike lanes, which I hear them and I understand their concerns. And I'm happy. That's why they're angry at me, not about anything else about who I am. So that's cool. I just want to kind of actually wrap that sort of, thing up and then we can move on. But I had someone post a comment when I was running for mayor that said, oh, isn't that cute, a gay man running for mayor in Langley City? And so I said, well, I don't think people should be making a judgment based on who I'm married to. I hope they're

voting for me based on what I stand for and they don't like me or like me based on that. And the cool response was there are people on social media who don't like me for the issues that I stand for and they came in and they're like yeah we don't like him because of what he stands for not because of who he's married to and that's good like that was really kind of awesome yeah so before we move on from that i'm running for chief of my community now and that is a huge thing i don't want in indigenous communities some of them still we got all of the benefits of an electoral system but nobody explained us best practices on how to use it so we don't have all candidates its meetings, meet and greets, door knocking, explaining what our platform is, none of that

is commonplace in my community. So I'm trying to bring that about. Let's say, these are the issues I want to help with. This is what I think I can do for the community. But oftentimes people vote based on last name. So there's the Florence's, there's the Johns, there's the Peets, there's the Peters, there's the Charleys, there's a few other families. And so people often go, oh, I'm a Pete, you're a Pete, I'll vote for you because you're a Pete.

I don't want to win that way. I don't want a mandate from people based on the last name. I want it based on the ideas that I'm bringing that I'm going to hopefully use my law degree for good and try and make that positive impact. And so that is my big concern right now is I would hate to be elected and have people go, why I voted for you because of your last name and not based on the issues because then it's like, I'm going to shake things up. I'm going to do things differently. So please vote for me on that. So you're not surprised when I change things up. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I think that's really interesting that that's there. And I mean, I suppose this is, you know, for my education, too, is the system of governance, one that's actually fitting for your community, or was it one that was imposed? And is there a better way of governance? Or is that a whole other discussion? I think it's definitely another discussion because some people believe in the hereditary, but I don't think, as you said, and nobody disputes democracy is better that you have people

win based on their ideas. And so I would say it was imposed, but it was imposed to our benefit. like the legal system, overall, the legal system is far more effective. We didn't have innocent until proven guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt, like some of the rules and ratios that we use in law before colonization. So there were certainly benefits. Obviously, we want to intertwine and bring the best of both together, and that's obviously what we've missed out on. That's really interesting. And yeah, I mean, the idea of all candidates and door knocking, is that something you're going to do then? That's what I'm doing right now.

So I just hold it a meet and greet. And I'm going to do like a Zoom kind of interview thing so people can hop on and ask questions. And then I've been trying to make it clear like I want to bring in about economic development. I'm open-minded to whatever the community wants to take. But I want to improve youth resources and elder resources in our community. That's really exciting. Yeah. So what made you want to take the next step into, you ran for another term of mayor or of council?

What was that decision like? Was that a challenge at all? I well as it was the so the first time you run you're running your set of issues and promises and I kept track of that and reported back so you can run on your record and I felt that there was more things we needed to do in the community which is why I ran but again you know when you when you make change you're going to have people that are in support of it and people who are not in support of it and you know I kind of looked at social media maybe a bit too heavy in the first term as being the sort of pulse of the community, right? So going into the sort of my,

I guess, what would you call it, um, uh, second term, um, it was like, did I make the right choice? Because there's certainly folks that are super supportive of me online, but then there's also people that are very not. And like, did I make, you know, decisions that weren't in the best interest of the community or people didn't perceive was in the best interest of the community? So I was very, very nervous because folks that are very, very supportive or very, very not supportive are very, very vocal. And even at the door, like it was saying, you know, I've had people like spit-raving mad at me for some things, right? And so, I mean, it's just, I guess for me, it's, I guess I'm used to people yelling at me. Oh, which is fine, right? But for a lot of people,

they're not used to people yelling at them, right? And anyways, well, we can talk about that later. So coming into it's like, do, am I going to get in? Like, was I? too much for Langley City. Did we move too fast? Did we not bring along people in the conversation? Turns out that people were generally supportive, like I got the most votes of anybody, including the mayor. So that was, I think, a good sort of affirmation of the approach. Again, you need to always make sure you're bringing people on board. And I kind of think of policy and kind of there's a quadrant. You can look at it. So there's things that you think are a bad idea, things that the community thinks is a bad idea.

so you just don't do it, right? There's things that you think a good idea, that community thinks is a good idea, so you do those things. Where you have political capital, and everybody only has a fixed amount of political capital in their career as a politician. There's the decisions that you think are great

that the community doesn't, or that the community thinks is great, and you think is a bad idea, and you have to really pick and choose those ones. So in the first term, you know, I'll bring up, you know, bike lines. example. So we did some major changes to our road system in the first term. And that was a political capital situation because it was new to people. And there were a lot of concerned people. They

luckily did see the benefit of it. But I had to be mindful of you don't want to introduce too much change because if your political capital depletes, you won't get elected again. That is fascinating. I've never thought of it that way that you have those decisions to make where it's for the betterment of the community, but they might not be able to see it, feel it, or it's a long-term decision that's going to benefit everyone over the next 50 years, but it inconveniences people in the next three years,

so there's not an appetite for it. Yeah, and I'll give you a really good example. So I think everybody agrees there's an affordable housing crisis. And in the Fraser Valley and Metro Vancouver in general, we are constrained by mountains, the agricultural land reserve in the U.S. border and the Fraser River, right? So we have to go up. I believe everybody is not into developing agricultural land. At least I would say 80% of people aren't interested in removing agricultural land for development. So up, right? So when you get that to the community level, then it gets really interesting. So we had a proposal in a single family area, like all single family forever, where it was, a six-unit townhouse complex. So you could put in, with our current, you know, zoning, four units in the same place.

So that's, you know, two single-family homes with a basement suite. So you're adding two new units. The community, that neighborhood, didn't believe that was good for their community. So they probably got 200 emails. All of us on council did. People were very, very upset about this proposal. And it's good that they express their ideas and their concerns. And, you know, we did put a moratorium on future rezoning until we got some more

details from the community on, you know, how we interface townhouses with single family. But there was a proposal at the table and I voted in favor of it. And I voted in favor of it even when there were people who supported me in my last campaign in a big way that were very disappointed in my decision. And that was really difficult for me because I knew I was upsetting people who supported me. But also, I know we have an affordability crisis. I know people in my generation will never be able to afford a single family home. But we want families in our community and we want to give people a housing choice. So for those individuals, it's like, I understand that you're concerned with this change. But, you know, once it's built, I don't believe some of the concerns you've brought up

will materialize. Like, I do hear you with what you're saying. And that's why we're putting a pause on future stuff to make sure we get it right, but we're not putting a, like, some of folks were probably thinking, like, this is going to be the equivalent of density of a 10-story apartment building kind of idea, right? But saying, you know, I'm doing this because we need future generations to be able to live in our community. That's why I'm doing it. And so that was, in my mind, the right decision, even though it was very unpopular in that

neighborhood. Wow. And I don't know how many votes I might have lost coming up to this election, because that was in May. So not too long ago. No. Yeah. So it's still sitting with people.

How do you go about making a tough decision like that? Do you have to, uh, like, communicate with friends and family? Like, it seems like you did like the correct level of analysis, which is, is this good for the long term? Is it how many people is it going to impact? Is their concerns, uh, like, well balanced or are they perhaps, um, like being a little bit not in my backyard, kind of having that attitude towards things, but still. respecting the fact that they used their electoral voice, they participate in the democratic system,

so we don't want to discourage that. Like, it seems like it's a tough thing to process. How do you go about doing something like that? It is a tough process. So you think about it. You sort of, like I said, you sort of make that, is this something that you believe strongly enough to put capital into, right? And then you want to make sure, especially on council, is what does the pulse of other counselors, right? So if you're going to invest and you're passionate about it, are there people that support you in that position, at least in my mind.

That's how I approach it. So if I'm going to, you know, if I'm the only person who believes this is the right approach and everybody else is like, nah, Nathan, this is a bad idea. And the community is saying this is a bad idea, then I have to check myself and say, okay, well, if the rest of the council thinks it's a bad idea,

if the neighborhoods think it's a bad idea, but I think it's a good idea, maybe it's a bad idea, right? Yeah, that's kind of the test. You have that trust, though, in other people's judgment. Yeah, and I like talking to other people on council, too. So I think, you know, one of the things that I find valuable is maintaining like a human relationship with other members on council. So it's not just transactional and at the council table.

So that you can have those informal conversations and that builds trust amongst members of council. So you can have those discussions and you can disagree and, you know, it doesn't become like, oh, well, you know, Nathan hates me or, you know, this other member of council doesn't like me. It's like, no, no, we're just talking about the issues because we have, like you said, that trust. Do you think that that's a challenge for some people to keep it about the issues? When I at least look on social media, it feels like the person is their ideas. And that seems to be one of the challenges people face is they have a position on something and then it becomes who they are.

And then if you attack that, you attack them. It seems like you're very good at sort of navigating that. Yeah, and I think for myself, like I was saying in my first term, you know, I had to teach myself really early on that no, and people disagree. It's not because they don't like me. It's just they don't like the issue. And that took a change in my mind and my heart, right? And I don't, you know, I cannot see into other people's hearts and minds, but that's a thing that everybody needs to come to terms with. And maybe that's a piece of advice for anybody that's thinking of running, right? is, you know, you're going to have people that support you and people that don't. And, you know, you're going to feel really passionate sometimes, but just realize that hopefully it's just about the issue. Now, I know for a fact, some people have a challenge just connecting, you know, if you don't like my idea, you clearly don't like me and then we're not friends, right? That's definitely a thing that exists in politics. And for that, I suppose, if you're on the receiving end of that, you just have to not get sucked into that.

How did you overcome that? Was there a point in time where it was becoming too much where you were taking in other people's information and having trouble processing it and being able to relax and de-stress from that? Like, how did you overcome that? So you could go, okay, this is about the issues. It's not about me. it seems like it would be a challenge to disassociate from because we do want to be liked and respected and hopefully admired at different points. And so how did you address that? I mean, I think distraction is really good. So for me, I have a full-time job and I'm a counselor. So I can't necessarily let

things simmer because, you know, I have worked the next day. And so that's a good distraction. And generally, if you get that kind of break and you come back to the issue, at least for me, it's like, okay, the temperature is a little bit down in my blood now, right? So I've completed a day of work. Okay, what really happened? It's not just an emotional response. And then when there's times where I truly feel like I've been hurt, and I've had a couple of those.

I've talked to members of counsel, I said, hey, like, you know, I respect you and I hope you respect me. And I'm saying this out of respect, like, this is how I felt. I just want you to know, just so that you're aware. And, you know, every time I've done that, like, oh, like, I didn't realize that, Nathan, like, I'm, you know, sorry how I presented it or whatever. Like, I don't, you know, I'm not trying to convince them that their thing was right or wrong, but like, oh, I appreciate how I said it or how it came across kind of stuff. And I think

that's important. Otherwise, you can build that resentment. But that again, boils back to trust because you need to have that relationship with your council colleagues or wherever you are in government that you can say that. If you don't, then it just builds. So for me, I really like the independent system with councils because it forces you to collaborate, right? Where when you have these slates and party systems, it's us versus them. And then you start seeing, you know, your other members of council. You're not a council in the best interest of the community. You're a council looking after the best interest of your slate.

And you see the people that aren't on your slate as enemies. Yeah. I don't like that. It's the leaking of like the provincial system, which is very much like I had Daryl Plekisson from Abbotsford and he was an MLA for a period of time and he talked about how one of his first times kind of sitting down was like that he likes the NDP he thinks they're fine people he just doesn't love how they spend money and he got attacked by his own team for saying anything nice about the opposing side like how could you say something you're a BC liberal you should be

saying the best things about the BC liberals and saying the NDP are incompetent terrible people and he was like but that's that's not what I think like that's that's not how I feel. And so it seems like that slate system is like a leaking of that kind of process. It is. And that kind of goes to the, you know, system we have in BC where, well, it's not even. In BC you can actually have war systems. It's just some municipalities choose not to. So when you have large communities like Surrey or Vancouver, really for the sake of democracy and, you know, I have an extreme opinion that nobody supports but myself. But I think Surrey and the city of Vancouver are too big. And, you know, I think Surrey could probably

be two municipalities at this point, South Surrey, White Rock, being its own municipality, and North Surrey, and Vancouver probably, I look at the dynamics there, and it's really like three different communities there. So you have a smaller representation, and we are in a federated government, so it works. It's not like you end up with more waste, you actually end up with less waste, counterintuitively. So you have a smaller government, so it can be closer to your residence, because that's what we are. We're supposed to be close to our residents and our businesses. But then even when you have a large geography, you really have to look at wards, I think.

And this has been a shift to me because I used to not like wards. What are wards? A ward is, you represent a geographic area. But you need to be careful with that so you don't end up with an us versus them with the ward system as well, because that can happen. So if you're in a large municipality, say, I'll pick on Toronto, where you'll have a ward that's like downtown Toronto and a ward that's like a Tobico, which is a sort of edge city, then you'll have people in this ward almost voting against people in downtown Toronto

because it's those Toronto downtowners, or you'll have Toronto downtowners voting against reasonable policy because Atobico is just car driving Hicks, right? So you need to be very careful with wards. But that's something I think we need to have a real serious discussion with, especially in Metro Vancouver for our largest communities, is how do we make it easier for people to represent a smaller portion of people and lower the barrier to running? So you don't need to have a slate. So the process of a word, it sounds like, is you have Vancouver, but then you say people will represent like West Vancouver as like a specific geographic region, and then they go to the main, all of Vancouver, but they're representing West Vancouver's

interest. Yes. And then you're saying that it's a good system because then you actually have people from that area speaking on that. Like hypothetically right now, you could have all counselors from West Vancouver making decisions on downtown and all the other areas, even though they don't have the lived experience, but you're saying the counterpoint, the challenge with it is then you have West Vancouver

versus downtown Vancouver. How do you think we overcome that or make sure that we don't become polarized? Yeah. So I really believe in the federated system we have in B.C. Nova Scotia is adopting it now and we're very unique in at least the U.S. Canada

perspective. And from what I can tell you know, I guess I can't, I can just say European, I guess, experience. So we have our local governments and for areas, you have electoral areas as well. Electoral areas are rural areas that are unincorporated in B.C. So in the Fraser Valley Regional District, where we are right now, you have Abbotsford and Chilliwack and Kent and Hope. I believe those are the municipalities. I don't think I forgot any. Agassi? Agassiz's District of Kent. Right. Oh, Harrison Hotsford. I forgot the village of Harrison Hot Springs. And I think you could argue DeRosch, if I'm not mistaken.

I don't think that's a municipality. Okay. I thought the regional district, though, doesn't leak a little bit? Yeah, we'll talk about that. So you have five municipalities, and they, based on population appoint directors to the regional district here, then you have electoral areas. So if you're in like Boston Bar, right, you are part of an area. I don't know what area.

I'm not that far in the weeds, but you have direct elections there. So you have people appointed from the municipalities. based on population, electoral areas, based on population, and they're looking at in the best interest of the region. We see this in Metro Vancouver, too. And for whatever reason, it might be because we have that sort of tradition, and I think tradition is really important, right? Okay, well, when I'm at the regional district level, you know, yes, you know,

I have my experience as, I'm not on the regional district, but. as a director, but I'm looking at the best interests of Metro Vancouver. And we actually see that, at least in Metro Vancouver, where people aren't trying to punish downtown Vancouver or downtown Vancouver people trying to punish Langley or something like that. They're like, no, we're in this together. We're here for the best interest of Metro, so we're wearing our Metro Vancouver hat.

So if you bring that down to the kind of, you know, municipal level, it could be something as simple as having that tradition already embedded, but also even things like if you're doing your oath of office. And, you know, this might sound a little cheesy, but it's like, you know, I'm, you know, here from, we'll use, let's say South Surrey. Let's not talk about Vancouver.

They get enough airtime already. So, you know, I am in the South Surrey ward, right? I am representing South Surrey and the lived experience, but I know that the decisions I'm making is in the best interest of Surrey. And so when you're doing your oath, it's like, I'm here as a representative for Surrey and the best interest of Surrey no matter where you are. And just making sure that that's driven home.

And I mean, there will be people that try to exploit that for sure. But if you always have people that try to rein that in, I think that's an approach. So what made you shift when we're talking about this ward system? You originally said that it was something you were hesitant on, then you decided to sort of pursue it. And you've changed kind of your viewpoints towards it. Yeah, because, you know, a lot of places with wards are these big uni cities like Calgary, uni levels communities like Calgary or Edmonton or Toronto, where you have this one level of government that's responsible for absolutely everything. It's too big for itself. And your wards

are massive, right? And I saw the kind of conflicts that happened. So I remember when Ford won was the mayor of Toronto, his first act. is he's from a Tobacco was gonna he ripped out all the downtown bike lanes ha ha because that was retribution or whatever just stuff like that I'm like okay well we don't want people just you know getting payback because they felt like you know downtown Toronto got all the shiny things or whatever yeah that's why and then what made you believe in it so um I mean again it's different context but going back to metro Vancouver and just being involved with it now I just see that you have these different levels of government, and I can see that people can wear two hats.

I guess I've just seen that. So I'm like, well, you know, if we can do that at the regional level, can we not do that at the, you know, local government level? That's fantastic. What has it been like to work as a team with other people? Like, you don't get to choose the people who are elected alongside you. Yeah, it seems like being collaborative is something that's a value of yours. Well, you have to be to move forward in local government. So I think the first thing you need to do is understand what your priorities are and understand what other people's priorities are, you know, try to get to know the person at a personal, like, who they are, you know, like, what's their background? Why did they get involved? You know, what's their favorite drink? Like, just get to know people, right? That's really, really, really important and be genuine around it. So I think people can suss out, folks that are transactional pretty quick. And I think, think at least my experience in government is if you're not genuine and honest and you're just like, you know, hey, what can you do for me today? So if I do this, you know, I'm going to

do this for you. They call it horse training. You're not going to get very far because people be like, oh, all he cares about is, you know, tip for tat and, you know, it's not genuine and just transactional. So really genuinely wanting to know other people is important. I think if you're looking at an individual situation. Now, I mean, I'll give you an example, too. There was a, when I first was getting involved in local government in Langley and was first elected, there was a counselor, and I didn't have a good relationship with her, and she didn't have a good relate, like, we just didn't know each other. And so we kind of were all, you know, even today, we find ourselves on the opposite sides of opinion a lot. But, you know, we both put in an effort to

get to know each other over time. So now I know that, you know, I can get together and say, hey, you know, how's it going? Let's try, you know, grab a coffee and then the person will offer me like a ride home sometimes, right? That kind of stuff. And that just makes it better. And then we can actually say, hey, you know, I have this policy idea. What do you think? And they'll be like, yeah, actually, I think that's a good idea as opposed to, oh, Nathan said it. I'm automatically voting no. Yeah. And they can help you see, like, if you have a good idea, but it has some holes, you sort of need that person occasionally who can go, oh, it looks like you missed that, have you thought about this problem, and kind of help you flourish your idea?

Like, our whole legal system is based on the idea. You get one person on one side and one person on the other, and they go to war, and then you have a middle-grounded person to make the final call, but you need both sides to kind of get the best of the idea. Yes, you need that in government as well. You always need someone to who's there that is going to be counter to the majority narrative. You need that. That's very, very important. Otherwise, you get into group think, which is very dangerous. Yeah. Do you think there's any danger, though? In Chilwaukee, we had this problem of not collaboration, but bullying and pushing people into a position or convincing them or doing things behind closed doors. At least those are the rumors I've heard in Chilawak is one of the challenges. So I'm just interested. Is that your idea of collaboration? It seems like it only works if everybody wants to participate in that.

It doesn't have to be everyone. So if you're being pragmatic, you just need the majority of council to be wanting to collaborate. So as long as there's enough votes for a collaboration to work, then it will work. So if you have like, and I'm being very pragmatic, so let's say you have a council of seven individuals. If there's two people that really, you know, put in, everybody puts in their best effort, they're just not willing to, like, be a team player. And that doesn't mean group thinking voting along the same lines, right? but they're just, it's us versus them kind of personality.

Well, if you still have, you know, five people that are interested in dialogue and discussion, you can move forward. Yeah, that makes sense. So you have on your website right now a tracker of all the things you've accomplished during your time as council, can you talk a little bit about that? It seems so needed. It seems like such a breath of fresh air when so many people go like, I don't know how you voted, I don't know what, like, we talk so much at the provincial and federal level of like,

did they accomplish anything they set out to do, and it can be very discouraging to people, but you're putting out the information of the things you've gotten accomplished. Can you talk about that? Yeah. So for me, transparency is important, and also, like, realizing that you're not going to get everything done, like, on the first term and just be trans, or any term, and just be transparent about that as well. I know some people will be like, oh, well, he promised the moon, and now he's just lied to me. But I think I'd rather have, you know, hey, this is what I was able to accomplish. Here's what I wasn't able to accomplish. push out there so people can see. That's important. And for me, it also, I look at it because

four years is a long time in politics. So I always check in. It's like, what did I say? Oh, right. That one, right. It's like, oh, right, we need to do something about streetlights or whatever. And I can constantly refer that to keep me, you know, kind of grounded to what I said during the last campaign. Right. Because there's always going to be, there's those things you run on. And then there's always going to be something new, a new crisis, a new situation that comes up like every month and you can really get kind of drawn into and I don't even mean this is not like drama but like actual things you need to deal with right that come up day to day that you can sometimes forget about these longstanding things that you also need to address so that's why I kind of did

that to both so people know you know what I was able to work with others on on council and what together we were able to accomplish but also for me just so that I can stay grounded in what I talked about say four years ago yeah is there anything that stands out here you over your time so far that stands out to you as an accomplishment or a moment that you maybe didn't think was going to come to fruition that you were able to bring forward and collaborate and bring something to life that you're proud of? Yeah, there's a few things that I'm particularly proud of that we did as a council. For the first one, I think, just the shift in how we deal with our transportation network. So Langley City, when I first moved to Langley City,

it was just like big old roads transit i mean transling in the region does it so i can't claim any credit for the improvements to translate well maybe a little bit because i was a pretty big advocate and was on like the news all the time from no langlet nathan from langley saying translic needs to do this so you know maybe that that helped a little bit but just being able to have the conversations with the community so i remember going into the basement of a resident and they brought their neighbors over and 203rd Street was a two-lane road, but like big and people sped on it. And there was some money from ICBC and TransLink to put in bike lanes and kind of narrow it and all of that. So just going with the residents there and, you know, they're like, oh, we need some parking.

So how can this work with parking and just kind of coming up with the plan and then presenting that to staff and other members of council and seeing that get done? That was pretty transformative. and just generally, like, kind of making our community a place where there's travel choice. That's a big change for Langley, right? So I'm really proud of that. I'm really proud that I was able to work with others on council. There was a redevelopment happening of a seniors complex. So I think we have one of the largest seniors housing complexes for, like, low-income seniors in BC.

And they were looking at reducing, like, basically, Basically, it had that it was going to be like 80% for seniors, 20% for other folks. And the group was looking at eliminating that 80% required. Like, it wasn't really a requirement, but they're just like, we just want to open it up. So I worked with others and was able to ensure that that, you know, remained 80% for seniors. Because, you know, as an elders need a place, right? And I'm old. I want to make sure that I have a place, right?

being able to put forward policy on making sure that as we redevelop that we're the policy is being worked on right now that we have um 10 you know some percentage of units that will be below market rent forever that's really important right because we need a community where everybody can live and I know it's like not a panacea and we're still going to have affordability issues but it's a step in the right direction um Um, you know, being able to fly the rainbow flag. I mean, that spawned, you know, we have two queer seniors groups now because there's a lot of seniors in our community because there's gay folks everywhere that were like, oh, okay. So, you know, I can be out. So that was really good. And, you know, have young people saying, you know, oh, I actually feel safe in Langley City. I didn't, you know, that was, that's really important to me. Um, I think we did a new official community plan list.

Skytrain, which was with the community, other members of council staff, all of that. But it's like very transformative because we've re-centered our community around walkability and around transit. And we were able to present that to the premier of BC. And he was like, wow, this is amazing. So that's pretty cool. I'm pretty proud of the work we did with that. And even be able to introduce like small scale commercial into neighborhoods.

Because I believe it's important that to build a strong community. we need gathering places like throughout again all everything i'm talking about it's kind of centered on you know colonial stuff because that's what i know best but the idea of every sort of the the town patterns from you know europe and as we saw traditionally it was towns and um in africa as well is these towns all had places where people could gather that were all in walking distance so whether it's a market or a place of worship or a square, some gathering place, and introducing that into our community is so important. Otherwise, we don't have neighborhoods. We don't have people that can serendipitously connect with each other and just form, start to form those relationships. So being

able to introduce that into our OCP and hopefully see that on the ground is going to be really important to building real community in Langley. Yeah, I really want my community to have an official community plan it's again something we don't have can you describe that for people who might not realize because i think it's a it's a brilliant idea for people to be able to learn about a community before they move to understand the trajectory the community's hoping for the north star they're hoping to follow for sure and again you know official community plans and zoning can be used to for bad and for good so it can you know these things were used back in the day to make sure that black people didn't have opportunity for example so i'll just say

say that there's some negative, you know, histories with zoning and official community plans, but there's good stuff we can do with it. And I think we're moving in a good way right now with this. So official community plans at a really high level is the vision for your community. What it's focused on a lot in the past was land use. So it was more like, you know, we want strip malls here, single families homes here, I know, downtown commercial, you know, in this part of our community. So very spatial, right? What we're seeing now is official community plans are broad, where we're looking at sustainability, people, connections, and it basically lays out, like, what do we want our community to be? So in Langley City, and I'm going to fill the quiz on the five main things in our OCP right now, but, you know, we want to make sure that we have, like I said, choice in transportation and that we prioritize walking, right?

That's like our number one goal, and we connect it to transit. sorry, that's the number one goal of that section. It's understanding that we need a resilient community, right? So that's resilience, whether it's mental health or climate and how we go about that. We need culture and arts, because what's the point of life if there's no culture and arts? Really, right? So how do we, you know, make that part of our community? How do we give people those experiences?

Of course, there's land use. That's part of the plan as well, right? And then making sure that there's economic opportunity for all. And that's described in the official community plan. And out of that document, it sort of helps lay the groundwork for how we want our community to grow and change over the next probably 20 years. And you don't get to do those documents very often. So to be a part of it, like, you know, I had a small part to play in setting the city's

direction for the next two decades. Yeah. What does that mean to you? I mean, being a big policy wonk that I am, the most, like to me, that is the most important document. So if I'm not reelected, at least I can know that I was able to, I think, in a good way, change Langley City. What were some of the things that were important to you in that document that maybe were more personal to you that were more of a priority to you? Like I talked about gathering places, very important. And we were able to put that in there. Being able to shift us to

a community where there's travel choice is very important to me. Like we have a diversity of incomes in Langley City. And what I talked about earlier in our discussion is equality and equity is important. So to be in a city where you can walk, well, that's the most equitable thing you can do, right? So to see that embedded is really important. And even some like really minor things that are really important, like a pedestrian lead intervals. So as someone who walks a lot, and I think having lived experience as someone who doesn't drive a car, I do have a driver's license and I can drive but I choose not to is you get a lot of like okay on the ground that a lot of planners and staff don't because they just drive cars and they probably don't even

live in Langley right but you know pedestrian lead interval is where you'll get a walk sign so you can start crossing the street before everybody gets to green because otherwise people make left and right hand turns into you all the time because they're just looking at the light and going right so by doing a lead interval you get to be in the intersection so someone sees you before they try to drive into you. That is so true. That's so true. That's in the OCP, right? Um, and that's a direct result of me bugging the staff. So that kind of stuff is, you know, important and in there, so that is, that is probably one of the best ones because that happens so often where people are ready to make their right turn. So they just pull right into the, into the crosswalk.

Yeah. I didn't even know that that was the thing. And now that's a part of the community plan. Yeah. Is that something that was important to you when, uh, when we would, getting ready to have you on, we were talking about how great it is that you're getting the real world experience of what it's like to take transportation because so many people shape things they don't know anything about and they don't care about. So like it's like little things like that where if you know, you know, but if you don't walk, you don't really understand the challenges that walking can have and the safety concerns and all of those smaller kind of details that put things into a better context that make walking more safe and more secure. Yeah, so I'll give you

another example. That was just a case, and this is just where I live, and this is not just me looking up to the interests of Nathan. This is the interest of our community. So I live on 55A Street right by the Surrey border. There's basically another street, 198 Street. So to get over to Willowbrook Mall, you'd go over and overpass, and that's where the sky train will be. So as a person who has to walk that you'd want to take the direct approach, which is a 55A connected industry, you just kind of walk there and walk to the overpass. And there you go. But because of the road set up, I actually have to walk like five minutes the wrong direction up and then five minutes back. So I've wasted 10 minutes walking. And then that means everybody's going to drive right there, right? Because

it's just 10 minutes and out of the way to get to the sky train. So I was able to talk to staff. I'm like, hey, did you guys notice like there's no pedestrian access? in this neighborhood to transit, which is literally right there, but now it's exceedingly difficult because it's blocked by a sound wall. Like, oh, yeah, that's a good idea. And so then they put a sidewalk through the sound wall.

Yeah. Right? Just things people don't catch unless they're in that circumstance. And that's a broader discussion when we talk about having people with lived experience. So, you know, as someone like I have able-bodied. So, you know, there's things I could learn for sure about accessibility and universal access, but I don't have the lived experience.

So it's much better to have someone with that lived experience represented. So it's so important, you know, at council that we have those diversity of voices on there. You know, you need someone that's driving a car or you need someone who's, you know, older or younger or, you know, a mother or whatever, right? Because they bring these unique perspectives. And when you cannot get that, then you need to make sure that you're actually having a meaningful dialogue with people with those experiences. Because they get things that you won't get.

Like, I will never get what it's like to have a physical disability because I don't. So I need to, you know, we need to, as government, make sure that those voices are there. And not just that, oh, well, we talk to them. And so we can say our checkbox. Yeah. Did we talk to the accessibility rep? Check? Cool.

Well, did you actually do what they said? Did you actually give their fair weight to what they? they said. That's really important. And listen long enough to catch those smaller things because broad, if you just go up to someone and go, hey, what are the problems? It's like, well, A, B, and C, but we need to figure out what the challenges are in the day to day. Yeah. I guess I'll knock on the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure. So their idea of consultation is like we're putting in a sound wall, do you want gray paint or green paint? Right? That's not consultation. Yeah. Consultation is, you know, we're building transportation

infrastructure, what do we need to build, and even go back, like, what's a problem we're trying to solve? And is this problem actually something we should be solving? And starting there. Is there a challenge working with different levels of government that have different priorities that are being pulled in different directions and trying to make sure that your voice is being heard? As local government, that's one of the most important roles we can play. So when we look at the situation of homelessness, for example. There's a lot of different people doing good work, but it might not necessarily be coordinated in the community.

So as local government, we are sort of where the buck stops. So when residents or businesses or whoever talks to you, they don't care if it's a provincial responsibility or a federal responsibility. Fix it. We want to fix Nathan. Don't give me excuses. So as a government, then we can say, hey, let's bring these different folks to the table.

So we know, for example, you know, there's an individual who's living rough in, you know, McBerney Plaza. We've been told there's nothing we can do for them. Really, there's nothing we can do? Okay. So as a local government, who do we need to talk to? Who do we need to get to the table to help that individual? That's a big thing we can do as local government.

So we don't have to like, we do have to pay for staff for sure. But that's our role. is that facilitator for our community. Right. That seems like a big topic that's continually growing, is how do we support individuals, but how do we still keep pride in our community and feel like it is a beautiful place

when you have communities that are struggling with homelessness? It can be discouraging to see, but my big fear is that we stop, at a certain point, we stop looking at them like their people. And that, to me, is one of the big concerns when you have growing populations in that regard is housing seems important not only for their benefit, but so we keep that sense of community and respect. And I just, I went to a dentist appointment. And the person I was talking to was like, oh, they're just the

worst. And it's just like, these are human beings. Like, obviously something's gone wrong. But like, the lack of empathy starts to grow as the problem grows. Yeah. So I guess, how would I say about this? I think there is a lot of resources that exist right now. So I don't necessarily believe we need to throw more money at the problem. Because when you look at the, again, the huge amount of people involved with this, it's about trying to better coordinate. And when you get people help and then you lower the population of people on the street

and people living rough and the associated, I think then that sort of negative discussion hopefully diminishes. So because people, again, don't have the time to, you know, people have busy lives. They have their own challenges they're trying to deal with. They don't have the time to sort of unpack all of this. They just see what they see and they want something done. Yeah. And I think they see government in action.

So one of the things I've also noticed is, again, you know, we talked about earlier about how it takes a while to steer the bureaucratic ship and how that might be a good idea. but even dealing with this, there is inertia. Like even though we've been talking about how we address homelessness, the inertia to actually act because we get these things, well, it's not a local government issue. It's a provincial issue. The province is like, well, you know, we're asking for land

and the local government's not giving us land and they're going to help us. We have the money, and the feds are like, no one's applying for a grant, right? And it's like, okay, cool. So we're all throwing our hands up and saying it's the other person's problem. Let's stop this.

because we've talked ourselves in circles for so long. So that's why I don't believe it's, like, necessarily a money issue. It's more of a willingness to collaborate issue. That seems like the case, it's Maple Ridge and its hope that seem to be having these conversational challenges from my knowledge of the municipality doesn't want to use the land. They don't want this. The fear is more people moving to the community once the resource is open, which I don't think is completely untrue.

We've seen an increase in Chilliwack in regards to. to other communities going, oh, Chilliwax got all these beds, send them that way. And to their benefit, like, that's a good thing. We have resources here. That's great. But then there is that fear of, like, how many people are now moving here for these resources, for these ben. And it's like, it's a very complicated issue. Yeah. And I mean, I, you cannot, you know, say, well, people are going to move here to throw up your hands and say you're not going to do anything. Someone has to do something, right? And so what? If more people move here, maybe we can help more people. Right? Like that's, that's to me is if you just are more interested in moving people around, they're just going to move around and end up back in your community in the first place. So we need to help people. And if you can get help in Langley and actually get into housing and support and we get people off the street, I'm okay with getting people off the street in our community, right? And there's stories that I think are encouraging too. So Colonna, there's a large, you know, population of folks living rough. And I was there.

They're a while, like not that long ago, probably six months ago. And they're doing things that you don't hear on the news all the time. They have peer-monitored hygiene facilities in downtown. I was just walking down. My mom lives in Clona. So this is sort of the context of why in there, you know, just walking down downtown. And I counted probably three supportive housing, BC housing facilities. And they're like, wow.

And I talked to someone I know on council. I'm like, you guys have built a lot of supportive housing downtown. I'm like, oh, yeah, no, we've done a lot of it. I'm like, so if Colonna can do it, why can't the rest of us? Yeah. Is that a trip at all to be able to build relationships with other municipalities and see the inner workings, the dimensions, the goals, the hopes, the aspirations for other communities and see what other communities are doing and understand it on a way that

average people have no idea? It's really important, I think, to have those relationships. with other parts of, yeah, with other municipalities, other governments. That's why I think it's important. We have like this annual, annual conferences. There's a federal one and a provincial one. And then there's one just for like Metro Vancouver, or not Metro Vancouver, but for like, Fraser Valley Regional District, Metro Vancouver and like Squamish, a little what regional

district? Yeah, that one. So those ones there where we get together and discuss. I think I find a lot of value in the, the, local and provincial one, good or bad, BC seems to get things first. So when there's a discussions, it's good to talk about what's going on in BC. And then unfortunately, we become, more fortunately, we become leaders for the rest of the country after that. So I just, like, you know, we being able to go to Colonna, for example, and saying, hey, like, how have you addressed this topic

or what's your discussions? And you're like, oh, that's really cool. I can bring this back to Langley and have that discussion. And we have a similar governance because we're all under Local Government Act and the community charter where if I'm talking to someone from like Winnipeg,

it might not be as interesting because they have a totally different framework in which they operate. And also they'll be like, oh, have you guys heard about the drug overdose crisis? Seriously, like as of this year? I'm like, oh, you mean the one

we've been dealing with over the last decade? Yeah. Right? That's a wild. I actually had the opportunity to sit down with Aaron Ryan from the BCS.

SPCA. Her interest is like wildlife management in our relationship as we continue to grow. We continue to kind of invade in other areas. And her interest is, is trying to determine that. And her specific focus was rodents because a lot of municipalities, a lot of communities still use like rat poison. And then that rat poison ends up going into the owls and other animals and then can have deleterious effects. And then she talked about how even the sticky things that you put down, A rat will crawl onto or a mouse or whatever it is. And then staff members from that community will get to hear that rat scream and starve to death for days. And that she gets regular calls from people being like, what do I do?

And then she says, well, you can walk away or you can put it down your call. And she has to walk people through how to put that rat down. Because for the longest time, there's been no innovation in this regard of either rat poison, which impacts other species or having them starve to death. and there's only a couple of companies within BC that are actually trying to do something differently. And apparently North Vancouver was one of the first municipalities to go, let's try and do something different here. And so they got to run a whole bunch of tests and see if they could do something differently. And then one of my questions for her was like, is that something where like a municipality can become like a rubric for other communities?

And she's like, yeah, North Vancouver is that community that's really interested in treating animals humanely. And then they set the rubric. And then we share that with other municipalities on how to do it different. And it was like, this is so cool. This is like informing other communities on how to do things differently. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's like, that's the best part is where you can do that and learn from others. Yeah.

So is it hard being Langley? Like, is it hard like with the transportation as things grow? You're part of Metro Vancouver. I think it stops, if I'm not mistaken, with Langley and then Abbotsford something else. Yes. And so I think you're the last stop. right now still correct yeah so we're langley city so we're the small part so langley city's 10 square kilometers we're surrounded we're like the little donut hole basically we're surrounded by the

township of langley or as i like to say evil langley and uh well we we seceded from them in in 1955 um to form our own municipality and then we have surrey uh the big surrey to our west so yeah we we seceded in 1955 due to um streetlights so So I know you did I talk with the phrase Rally current about this But I have to ask Any interest in rejoining?

I thought it was funny What of your comments was That like Nobody's asking white rock and so Exactly. Yeah, yeah Yeah, I mean Again, it goes back to like

I was talking about accountability at the local level So yeah, We could talk about the reasons Why it happened But more importantly, City of 10 square kilometers I get to know about everything,

whether there's too much dog poop at a particular area of the community. This is legitimate and how we need another garbage can there, right? To talk to some of the more broad topics, you know, dealing with some issues around affordability, right? But it's really important that we can have that one-on-one relationship with our businesses and our residents. And then when I look at a large community like Surrey,

you know, I think because they're so big, as a counselor, there's decisions where it's really hard to be accountable. So if you want to put a road through Bear Creek Park, go for it because you'll upset those people, but it's such a big community that you're still going to get elected, where if I upset enough people and I'm out to, you know, up to lunch, I'm not going to get elected.

So that's why I like that sort of smaller unit of accountability. And then when it comes to efficiencies, well, we have a shared police detachment. We already have shared water, shared sewer, shared transit. Like a lot of integration already exists. so it's not like every city has their own sewage treatment plant. So do you think, I think in the article, naming was also mentioned.

Yes. How do we deal with that? I mean, I... Should Eva Langley just switch to Evil Langley? Exactly, there we go. I mean, I think it's a really interesting... And I'm not suggesting that this is a priority of mine. But I think it would be an interesting conversation.

So when I was in New Zealand, I think when it came to reconciliation, and, like, properly naming places, or, to my mind, is properly naming places. They've gone through a lot of effort of talking with the Maori people there and say, hey, like, let's start naming it what it was. And, you know, we have a lot of, like, who's Langley? Right? Do you know?

I kind of know. But it's like, does it resonate? Does it connect people to the land in place we're in today? Yeah. Probably not. And again, like, I don't want to offend anybody who's really attached to the name Langley. but you know it could be a discussion of like is there a better name for a community like is there historic some historic meaning is there a way that this can help on our journey of

reconciliation is just like there's a whole discussion we can have which I think is really cool I don't know the answer but I think that's a conversation that I'd like to have at some point because names are important and I feel like if there's two Langley's maybe we can get a better name Interesting. So what is the relationship with the township? Is that complicated? Is it similar to like, I don't know, working with Abbotsford or Surrey? How do how do the two of the organizations operate? I guess it depends on who's in government at the time. So I did a lot of work in the township with my advocacy early on. Again, we're pretty integrated as a community like you have to go through Langley City to get to anywhere in the sort of urban parts of the township of Langley. anyways so we have things like and we have you know I guess you could almost consider it a family we're a family so we get mad at each other sometimes too right yeah but you know are like simple things like we do our you know poverty reduction strategies and all these things together because these things don't end at the Langley city you know township border so from a staff level

and where it really matters it is collaboration and I can joke about evil Langley but really we do need to collaborate, and I know many of the current members on council and have a good relations with them. So that's important. And making sure that we're doing these plans and strategies together. And even things like, you know, our water systems are interconnected. So Metro Vancouver has one water connect, like this is really getting technical. So Metro Vancouver delivers water to each municipality. Most municipalities have two points of connection to the Metro Vancouver water system. The municipalities in Metro are responsible to deliver it to the end user, whether that's businesses or residences.

So Langley has one connection to Metro. So if that goes down, no water for us, right? So we have interconnections with the township of Langley. So we can use their water if we need to. So things even like that where we're working together. And I think there's other opportunities to collaborate, honestly. But it depends if you have a willing partner that's looking to collaborate further. And is that where you guys are at?

Is that easy? I don't see the collaboration right now. We'll see what happens after the next election. Oh, interesting. that's exciting so the decision to run for mayor was that difficult was it an easy decision does it seem like an obvious next step did you see it when you were a council member that that could be the long term how has this come about yeah i mean i'm i was really happy serving as council as a counselor you can bring a whole lot to the table and you know like even the mayor is only one vote and one voice at the table a mayor is not like uh does not have any real meaningful power over another member of council. So we're all equals in my mind at the table. What the mayor really is is a facilitator at the end of the day. So your role as mayor is bringing the, and this is a lot of work and it's very difficult, bringing a

diversity of voices to the table, you know, we're all running for government. So let's be honest, there's probably a little bit of ego involved with all of us, right? There just is. Otherwise, you wouldn't be running in the first place. So bringing all those egos together, being able to say, okay, so where is that common ground, right? Where can we move together as a group? That's really important role as a mayor, and that's a full-time job unto itself, right? Just having those discussions and dialogue and making sure that we're continuing to move forward or not moving forward in a good way, depending on what you want to do. And then your other role is you represent the community you serve.

So you are, you know, you're Langley City. So how you act, how you behave, how you present yourself, your representation of your community. So to me, it's like, it's a big, it's an honor for sure that people choose you, but you have to treat that with respect. because you are the community. Like, I'm not saying like, I'm Langley, but like, you know, when people look at

how you present yourself in the media, what you say, you know, people are going to say, oh, Langley's, like, if you have a mayor, maybe I'll use a different municipality. If you have a mayor in a different community that you're like, oh, wow, they seem to be like saying these things that are very interesting or cause a lot of controversy in the newspapers. A lot of people might be like, well, they don't represent.

what I believe in my community and I feel a bit embarrassed. You know, I don't think, I don't want to be an embarrassment for Langley City, right? So that's really important. And then, you know, you show up at community events and you're kind of also the sort of spokesperson for council. So even, like, as a counselor, I get the opportunity of saying, like, I don't believe in this policy. This is why, right?

As a mayor, you actually, in the community charter and local government act, you're supposed to be like, if I didn't like the policy, that council put forward, I have to be like, council is moving forward with the policy. This is why, even if I don't like it. Yeah. So it's the purpose of that is to reduce the controversy to show a united front to the other municipalities, to the province, to Canada, if you're making a decision that you're all on the same page.

And while you might disagree on details of, oh, we put, we added in this amendment or this issue that really, if you zoom out, you're all on the same page that you want a better Langley. Yeah. And I don't want to say group think, but it's just as a council, the decisions are of counsel. So even in like minutes, you get the minutes of who's opposed, which is fine. But you never get the positive votes or who moved and second his stuff because it's a choice your counsel. So I'm no longer Nathan. When we vote on something and move forward, that's a decision of counsel. And I don't know if that makes sense to a lot of people, but you're a body, you're not each individual.

Right. So as a mayor, that's where it's important is like you're the the spokesperson for that body, basically. And sure, I mean, you can say I'm sure respectfully, like I, you know, I didn't, you know, agree with that regardless. This is how we're moving forward and then move forward on that. Yeah. So was it heavy to choose to run for mayor as to do that change? Yeah, because, you know, I have a full-time job that I'm really. like and I really like counsel and running for mayor things will have to change if I'm successful and that's a big scary change for me and a mayor I mean you're kind of guaranteed for four years and that's it and you know I'm you know in my 30s so like I have like I'm putting my career I don't

know in what state right so it's yeah it's it's big and scary for sure so what made you decide this is worth doing it's worth the risk I'm going to expand and go all in on this position. So we're at a real pivotal juncture in Langley and I think in BC, where we're looking at like a trifecta of issues, right? So we have climate change, right? We have affordability and homelessness, mental health, and we have toxic drug supply, all kind of at play here.

and we need to take some action on this and move forward and collaborate to move forward. So for me, that's why I want to run for mayor because I see that if we're going to go in a good way, we need to work collaboratively with others to move forward. Otherwise, like when I look at the statistics in Langley City, they're not making life better for people. So we need to work. we need to roll up our sleeves. We need to, you know, put our differences aside and just work in the best benefit of our community. Right.

That is a very rousing, positive speech. What is the process to run in comparison to council? How different is it going to be for you in comparison? Yeah. So I think running for mayor is a bigger responsibility. And like I said, you represent the whole community. So, you know, you want to make sure, I think, you know, from your other council colleagues, again, not as a slate, but like, you know, do they respect me and are they like, you know, what do you think of me running for mayor?

They might say, I think it's a bad idea or a good idea, but just sort of doing a litmus test that way, talking to other community leaders and elders and say like, hey, I'm thinking because I'm younger, right? It's like, okay, so what do you think of me running and, you know, talking to some former mayors and stuff like that and say, like, what do you think and get their opinion and also kind of, you know, float it with the community and say, like, what do you think? Is am I someone that you think could represent you in a good way? You need to do that and make sure that there's people that are like, yes, we want you to.

What was that process like? Long, I suppose. But, I mean, yeah, just having those conversations, a lot of coffees, a lot of listening, right? That's what I did. What was the day, like the early stage of opening your mind to that idea? How long ago was that? Was that a long time ago? Was that months ago?

And how did that kind of unravel? Yeah, I think it was earlier this year. Just looking at sort of where we're at in Langley City for myself, I would probably not run for council again if I wasn't running for mayor. So that was sort of on my mind. Am I exiting local government or is there more value that people can see in me? Why would you consider not running third term? I mean, you've probably read the newspaper articles about Langley City and some of the, I guess, discussions and censure and all of that sort of stuff.

Yeah, I don't, but why would that impact your decision to run? Because of the work environment. Okay. So I want to make sure that I'm in a positive work environment. That's really important for me. Okay, fair enough. Like, yeah, I'm a human being and want it to work in a positive work environment. So, yeah, and other people around me who are impacted want me to work in a positive work environment because where you work.

and what you bring home after work is important for your partner and friends and all that sort of stuff, right? Yeah. So that was one reason why it would be mayor or nothing. Interesting. Yeah. So there's that. So, yeah, anyways, dealing that, that's kind of the decision was what I run and then those

conversations. Interesting. And so my understanding is you have to work towards $24,000 to raise in order to run a full campaign. Yes. What is that like? You're asking even more people for money, which I don't like doing, but it's something you have to do.

So, yeah, it's just, with mayors, it's really interesting, though, because as a counselor, there's, I think people don't see it as important. I think being a counselor is really important. So getting, you know, even a hundred bucks is difficult. But when it's mayor, people see that more seriously, I guess. So I don't want to say it's easier to get money. but you certainly people are more committed if they're going to donate. Yeah, because it's not one of six people.

It's a closer race and that there's only a few. Is it just one other person running right now? I won't know until the September 9th. I know the only other, there's one other declared person for sure. Okay. So there's three people running right now? Two. Two people running right now.

Okay. And then the final date is what day is it? On September 9th, which is Friday. Okay. And what is the process in comparison to run? Is it same? And what are the debates like? Do you enjoy that environment,

the all candidates meanings, the conversations? They're fine. I mean, we don't have like the classic like, well, this person, kind of stuff.

It's more like the least the ones in Langley is there's a question and then you go around the circle kind of thing and say your piece. And there's usually two. So there's one with the senior center and then there's one with the Langley Chamber of Commerce. The Langley seniors is actually

seniors go and they sit at like tables which is really cool and then you basically pay speed dating which is actually really cool so it's like I like that because people get to know you and it's not like adversarial I mean we all love the like I'm the best person and I'll make the community better rah rah I'm sure but really at the end of the day that format allows you to have a little bit more nuanced conversation with people because you know sound bites are great but it's actually really good when you can talk to people and have more than 30 seconds. Yeah. What is it like to try and keep, you mentioned ego, what is it like to navigate that?

Like, it's an immense amount of responsibility. It can be encouraging at times, but there's a lot to take on when you have so many people looking at you, seeing your voice. How do you navigate that? It's you need people that will call you out in your life. That's really important. So, lucky for me, I have people that aren't afraid to tell me when I'm being stupid. That is super, super, super important.

And to be in a place where, you know, that you can accept that criticism and be like, okay, I hear you. I'm doing something stupid. Okay. That's so important. And I never want to, like, I hope I never become the person that surrounds myself with people that are just going to say, you're awesome. I value when people say,

you're not because you need that to ground you and challenge you, right? And if you're not being challenged, you can't grow either, right? Absolutely. That's a really good way of looking at it. What would you say to somebody in Langley right now who's deciding whether or not to go to the polls, who's trying to decide whether or not their voice matters? What are your thoughts on how they should proceed? I mean, that's sort of like, you know, do you think the sky is blue kind of question? Yeah, you need to go and vote, right? Your voice. your voice matters. I think it's a challenge though in local government because with mayors sure there's two of us so you can kind of do that or there might be others right

but there's probably two. When you have a slate of like there's 30 people running for council it can be really overwhelming right and so I can get how that can be a challenge for people and I don't have a answer on how it becomes not a challenge but you just need to read and see which person represents your values. A lot of municipalities will post up like a little profile of each of the candidates. So at least you can read up on each of the candidates. Or just message the candidate on like social or whatever and to say, hey, you know, things that you're,

so if there's a couple of issues that are important to you, just send a message or whatever and say, okay, where do you stand on X, right? And just send it out and see what they say. Yeah. What is your pitch to people if they're considering voting and they're thinking of who to vote for for mayor? What would you say to that person? I mean, for me, it's like I said, we need to move Langley City in a positive direction. We're at a crossroads. I have a proven track record of working with others on council, with our provincial and federal partners as well. You know, I have that track record so you can vote for me and we can move forward in a positive direction. Yeah. And how can people support you if they're sold, hook?

Klein and Sinker on this conversation, how can people show their support? They can find my website if they live in, well, I mean, you can donate money if you live anywhere in BC, so you can just go to Nathan, P-A-C-H-A-L dot com and donate. If you live in Langley City, there's also, you can ask for a lawn sign or help hand out postcards, and of course, vote. That's the most important thing. Perfect. Nathan, this has been such a blast to hear your perspective, learning about local government's a

passion of mind because I think it's where a lot of the issues impact us personally. I really love your mindset around managing your ego, hearing from people you disagree with, making sure that you remain open to sitting down, even if it's for coffee, not talking about the issues, then battling it out with your votes later on. I think that that's all such a healthy way to have your voice heard. I think when we talk about experience, that's the key thing, is having those tools in your toolbox. The big fear is somebody gets in and they don't want to collaborate, they just want to go to war,

they think they're right like that's where experience needs to be humbled and taken back it sounds like you have all the tools so i don't think age should be a concern when you've got the right mindset when you're working with other people so i'm so grateful to have been able to sit down with you i'm so grateful you're willing to drive take the bus all the way out here to sit down with me today um thank you so much yeah thank you for having me it was an honor to be here Thank you.