Nuanced. - 87. Vin Jay: Rapper & Independent Hip-Hop Artist

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Aaron asks Vin Jay about becoming a musician, his hit song Mumble Rapper vs Lyricist, the decision to stay independent, and his album High Frequency with Bingx.  Vin Jay also talks about his album The Human Experience and specifically the songs Paradise and Doubt. The two dive into the importance of pursuing your passion, the impacts of psychedelics, social media and what Vin Jay has in store for 2023.    Vin Jay is an American independent rapper and songwriter who is well known for his viral song “Mumble Rapper vs. Lyricist”, which has been watched on YouTube over 20 million times. He currently has over 700 thousand monthly listeners on Spotify, and over 350 thousand subscribers on YouTube.    He has continued to release amazing music focused on motivation, family and pursuing a meaningful life. In 2020, he released his album Prophecy, which covers topics like mental health, addiction, and the state of the rap industry. In 2021, Vin Jay and Bingx released their album High Frequency. This album, as Vin Jay describes, added many elements to his style. Shortly after, Vin Jay released his profound album The Human Experience. This album provides insights on the power of meaningful relationships, the impacts doubters can have and truly reflects elements of the human experience. Most recently, he has released several incredible singles which are available on YouTube, Spotify and Apple Music. Listen to Vin Jay on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/2DQkr7ZMTqNrlz5HcXZeI7?si=cFhKvp_eRSW28f88hDQZEg  Shop Vin Jay Merchandise: https://youngestprophet.com/Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Vin, thank you so much for being willing to do this. This is a true honor and a privilege for me. I really appreciate you being willing to take the time. Would you mind giving a brief introduction for people who might not know you? Yeah, no problem. So for those who don't know me, my name is Vin Jay. I am a independent rapper based out of Arizona. And yeah, man, music is my life.

I try to make it as much as possible. try to make music that helps people, whether it's through dark times, or whether it's just motivating music that can help them recognize their true potential. When did you become passionate about it? Has this been, since you were a little kid, always working on it? How did this come about for you? Yeah, so I would say I got into music in general when I was in like, probably like fourth grade. And I picked up guitar. And I got into a, band with my friends did that until

until like eighth grade. And then once I got my first year into high school was when I started rapping. And it was not good at the beginning, as everyone is. And treated it more like a hobby for a lot of years. And then when I was, I got into my 20s, I discovered Russ

and his whole weekly release pattern. And so I got a fire lit under me. I was like, I'm going to drop a song a week. this and a third. So that's when I really started taking it a little more seriously, decided to make an EP. And the fifth song of that EP, the final

one, was my viral idea for mumble rapper versus lyricist. So I had made, up until that point, I made $60 over the course of 10 years of rapping and had 500 subscribers on YouTube and that song

dropped and it changed my whole life. When I got tens of millions of views across several platforms and And really just boosted me a lot into six figures on YouTube and all that. And since then, I just had a fire under me and been nonstop releasing music, just taking that momentum for what it's worth. That's incredible. Having the commitment can be such a challenge for people.

It can be so discouraging your first week, your first month, your first year to kind to go, this isn't going to go anywhere and you can have other people going like, what are you doing? How did you stay motivated? How do you stay passionate and willing to share? They're such a gift. So for me, in the beginning, at least, I feel like it was just something to do, like I said, a hobby, because I would come home from my work of, you know, 10, 12 hours, and I wanted to make music. It was something I really wanted to do.

So it wasn't so much I need to do this so I can make more money and things like that. I just really liked making music, and I got lucky enough to create that song. And then after that, the motivation just came. when you see your life change that quickly, it's very motivating to continue to take that path. That song is so unique because it hits on such a chord with rap right now, which is that there's this whole group of mumble rappers of people who aren't saying a lot or are talking about drug use and being at parties, and you perfectly kind of put the two against each other.

Can you tell us how that idea came about? There's brilliant rappers like Eminem who talk about this problem with mumble rap growing, and this meaningless kind of art form that doesn't have any depth to it. And then there's people like yourself on the other side providing such insights on how to live a meaningful life and how to develop. How did that come about for you? So the idea came to me very randomly. I was working out.

I was at the gym. And the idea just popped into my head. I wrote it down in my notes, make a song about a mumble rapper versus a lyrical rapper. A few days past, I went home, wrote that song in a few hours. and pulled a YouTube beat off, you know, one of the most popular YouTube beats, never thought the song would be what it is,

and just went to it. But in terms of where the idea came from, man, I think it was very timely. I think at that time in music, I think that was a very popular standpoint. I think Kamikaze had came out probably months before that. So I think when you put, speaking from personal experience,

when you put a lot of effort into your craft, and you see people with a lot of success who, it seems like they're not putting that much effort into their songs, it frustrates you. So you make songs about that, so to speak. And I think that song is a manifestation of that. What did it mean to you to see it explode? You don't know always which one's going to do well.

When I interview someone, I have no idea how people are going to react to it. But obviously, that one has been incredibly successful, 20 million views on YouTube. what is that meant to you and what did it mean to you at the time it was something i never experienced before i had a song go semi-viral on facebook um probably a year before that but it had no translation to my life my income my youtube channel for that matter went viral on facebook so when this took off it it like i said it just shifted my focus i was like this is it and then i put everything i had into my music from that point. How do you work

on your craft? They talk about 10,000 hours. They talk about being committed and putting in the time to develop it. What does that look like for you? Is there a focus on writing lyrics? Is there a focus on the beats in the background? How do you kind of think about developing your craft? Yes. So as of right

now, it is my whole life. I really don't do much else. I wake up, I drink some coffee, I brush my teeth, and I am in this room and I'm either searching for a beat so I can make another song. And if I'm in between songs and not looking for a beat, I'm at the, if I'm out at the grocery store, just walking around my house, I am writing words that just come to me and sound good. I may not know the home they're going to find yet when it comes to a song or what the song's about, but it is

always in the forefront of my mind. In terms of the beats, what I usually do, I used to, like, look for beats that I was like, oh, this is going to be a hit. This is going to, you know, really, you know, smack on speakers. Now my goal is always, when I scroll through beats, I need the beat to make me feel something the second I hear it. Because that's the experience I want for the listener. And then all I'm going to do is elevate that because the beat is going to inspire me to create something. And now it's two inspired pieces that the listener gets to hear all at once. And I think that is what music is all about.

I always joke that artists have a superpower. And our power is to make others feel. Regardless what that feeling is, we can change your feeling. And I was like, that's a superpower. So that's my whole goal now, regardless of the topic of the song. I love that you recognize that because I will be on a run listening to one of your songs. And it will give me the fuel, the energy to finish that kilometer to continue and not kind of let your mental, your mental fragility kind of take over and make you go,

I can, I'll just walk the rest, I'll just quit. And we don't know where that comes from. We don't understand how a song can elicit such energy out of another person. And your music consistently does that. And so it's really meaningful to hear you recognize that and you know that. Yeah, it's, I think energy is the bottom line of all of this. And I think artists or lyricists, let's say I'll say all artists, we are the voice for the voiceless.

We know how to articulate those feelings. And I think everyone has these feelings but lacks the ability to understand them and definitely communicate them and articulate them. So when they have someone who's able to do that very well, they're like, yes, that's what I've been trying to say or that's what I'm feeling. I just couldn't put my finger on it. And that really, like, strikes people. Absolutely.

And there's a brilliance to your ability to like narrow it down because I think of some people who are going through anxiety or depression, and it might take them an hour to explain how they feel and what they're thinking and work through it all. Yet you're able to cut it all down to three sentences or one brilliant sentence that kind of encapsulates a whole feeling, a whole emotion. What is that like for you? Is there a process to narrow down the lyrics and to kind of hone in on a thought? Like, what is that like? Absolutely. So the songs kind of mold themselves. So when I hear a beat, I don't know what it's going to be about, but the beat will pull a word out of me. If the word is anxiety, let's say, for an easy example, then I can craft a hook around that, around general anxiety.

And then all I can do is speak on my experiences with it, right? Otherwise, it's not going to feel genuine. So I will go really in and specific of how it's made me feel or specific things that have made me feel anxiety. and and I think that's what resonates because it's so real and raw that others can, they've either been through the exact same thing or they at least understand the feeling. Absolutely. You've also talked about how this is like therapeutic and I'm just interested. What is that journey like?

You write on such different topics. I'm just curious, how do you, how does this kind of help you? I would say it does for me what journaling does for others. It's a way to get it out, right? We all feel it and it makes people feel good when they hear it. But for me to like, to an extent, this is on some spiritual stuff, but to an extent, ideas don't come from me. They come to me, right?

So when they come to me and they come out on the track, sometimes I'll listen, I'll be like, I didn't even know I felt that way about that thing, that deeply. But it's crazy that whether consciously I thought that, clearly my subconscious has these aggressive feelings towards this topic and they needed to come out. I always say like

I'll show my girlfriend my songs all the time before they're finished and she'll like she'll literally hug me after I play her a song if it's about anxiety or something sad because she's like she thinks I'm like you're struggling really aggressively with it which I wouldn't say I am I struggle with it as much as everybody else

but when it comes from a place like the subconscious it is the most like aggressive manifestation of that feeling. So it feels really intense and like you're dealing with it that heavily right now. But I just think, I think it's just an emotional purge. I think that that's such an insightful statement about how they come to you. I don't think we give the space enough to recognize how wild it is. The ideas kind of come to us and we're almost just a vessel for those ideas and for those emotions. And it's just, it's fascinating to kind of think about where do they

come from. But I'm curious as to how you get into that mind state. Do you have to be alone? Do you have to sit with it? Or is this on a run where you're experiencing? Obviously, with one of them, you were at the gym. So I'm just curious, how do you get into that mind state to let those emotions come to you? So I think that varies for everybody. And I also don't think it's just one thing. I'm very intense. I live very regimented. If I live either on one side or the other, being in the middle is tough for me. So for me, what I've realized is you just need to do what makes you feel most aligned with and receptive, whatever that may be for the individual, is find things that make you feel good and receptive and not like there's a friction in your living, so to speak,

so that things can come to you naturally. So sometimes I work out relentlessly. Sometimes I party, and that's what I need because I've been living too regimented. And I think it's being conscious of how you feel in the current moment and adapting depending on what you feel like you need in the moment. So then you're in a place of flow and things can come to you. That's brilliant. I'm wondering what is it like to be an independent rapper? Was that something that was important to you from the outset? Obviously, Russ is independent and sets a huge example for others to take that path.

But how did that come about for you? Because I think it's so inspiring for independent podcasters, independent publishers, independent anyone to think that other people have paved away in their craft. And so I'm curious as to how that came about for you. So when I was younger, all I wanted to do was get signed. I was like, I just need to label these labels. Don't know what they're missing out on. Like, I'm the shit. Da, da, da, da. And what made me stay independent was once I popped off and you see life changing money come in and then people want a cut of it and they're not very clear on what they can do for you. It's like, I worked so hard to establish this.

I'm not about to give it up very easily. So I just think that stubbornness of not wanting to give up what I created easily just kept me independent. But the larger you get and the more leverage you have in deals, whether it's music or podcasting, you can work out deals that may not make you fully independent anymore, but they work very well for you. Everyone benefits and they can help elevate you without you,

sacrificing everything you've worked for. So I think it's just a matter of is the time right or not, but I think in the beginning, if you're just starting to build something, do not give any of it away before you've created something that allows you to have leverage. Absolutely. I think of like the Compton and that movie all about people who took a path and then paid a lot in in terms of consequences. I think Hobson went through something similar. And so it can really discourage and kind of remove your own sense of worth. And it's so, it makes me proud to know people like yourself are independent because you deserve for all the sacrifices you've made as an artist, for all the investment you put

into yourself, you deserve the ultimate rewards of those sacrifices. Absolutely. You don't, you know what it is. You don't want to need anybody. Like, if you get in with them from the jump, they brought you to where you are and you need them now. But like I said, establish it yourself first. And that's that every time I take conversations with.

labels or distribution companies going into it i'm like i don't need them would it be nice to work with them if we could both benefit of course but i don't need you and when you don't need someone or something you're not you're free you're free to make much better decisions absolutely i'm wondering about the album you did with bing x how did that sort of come about because i think you both brought out such energy and positively positivity around like being your authentic self standing out standing your not being ashamed or frightened, like there was a true sense of confidence and not arrogance, but like I am my best self right now and I'm delivering that and I'm proud of myself for that. So how did that kind of come about? Sure. So just to clarify, his name is Binks for the record.

My bad. It's all good. So that actually goes back to what we were speaking on earlier. Before that album, I think the album I made before that was prophecy. It was my first like album after I popped off. And I felt like I had hit a ceiling in terms of the depth of my music. When I would listen to all the tracks on it, I was like, it's all, not all, but a lot of it is just surface level. And I was very regimented. I was in the best shape of my life, working out two hours a day, not doing anything. It was like workout music, workout music. I did nothing else, no partying.

So I had flown out to Binks's house and locked in with him for a week. and I went polar opposite of who I was at that time. We just, you know, kicked back. We partied, we made music, and it was fun with no expectation of any certain type of outcome. So that album really was just therapy for me to expand my sound. Let me see if I can get lost in the sound waves as opposed to militantly try to make a certain song. And we locked in for a week, made many different sounds and songs. and it helped me grow as an artist in the long run.

And I always say my music now is like a combination of prophecy, who I was from my roots, plus everything that I expanded on with the collaborative album with Binks. I don't think I'm either of those now. I think I'm this person who has intertwined a lot more aspects into my craft. I couldn't agree more. It also focuses a lot on elevating yourself, on almost zooming out on your life and seeing it from a new perspective. Is that where the collaboration came in

to kind of zoom out and appreciate your life for what it is and then work towards a new goal? Yeah, I think I've always had the motivational aspect to my music. Like I said, there was no real intention to making that album of what it should be about. But at that point in my life, it was definitely a point of self-reflection, which helped, I guess, create that narrative on the album.

Brilliant. And so what is it like to come? collaborate. What did that look like? Were you both on microphones going back and forth? I'm just curious as to what the kind of style looks like when you're working together. Yeah. So to start, we would either scroll through beats that producer sent us. Whatever resonated, we would hop on. Binks would cook up some beats from scratch. But this is a, that's a really interesting question because Binks taught me something during that week that I still used to this day. And it's something called Scats. And basically, all you do is you pull up a beat

and instead of focusing on the exact words meticulously what you're going to say, you kind of just, the second you hear the beat, you click record, get on the microphone, and just say anything that comes to you. And what that does is allows you to just let your subconscious speak and your feeling speak what the beat is done to you as opposed to thinking of specific. So it's just you're letting energy flow out of you that the beat has created. And then once you create those little mumbly, not word having scats, it may have melodies, may have a certain flow or energy to them,

then you can put words to it depending on what it feels like. And it feels a lot more natural. Wow. So was that like something you began to incorporate later on into your music? Oh, ever since. Interesting. And so what is it like to say things or to go through that and not know where it's coming from? Because that's, again, that's that fascinating.

We don't know where those ideas come from. Yeah, it's beautiful. man it's uh i live for it um i couldn't tell you where they come from let's say a higher power but um i've learned not to question everything i've been down that route and uh it just leads to uh exist oh my god existential crises because there's there's we're not capable of comprehending that stuff and when you try it's just going to frustrate you so just accept it for what it is keep yourself in flow be in tune with it and uh just enjoy the product that comes out of of it. What is it like? I assume that there's songs that you were considering putting on there

that you chose not to, or there's a selection process or an order process. I'm curious as to how you, you two went through that. And when this song goes first, because something light is incredible. It is the song to start it off. And I'm just curious as to how you guys make those decisions. Yeah. So sometimes it's a feeling thing. Sometimes songs just feel very introductory, like they're leading you to something. Other songs have a, a sense of finality to them that like is the bow on top of the album. But the order in between those types of things is more like, can we tell a story with these songs? What are they talking about? Do they have any sense of evolution or direction to them when they're put together?

And that's the route I usually take. Fascinating. So then you go on to make the human experience, which I think is a demonstration of like why we have albums. Because obviously Russ releases singles, but the way you structured that, the way you have skits and breakdowns of like what you were going through, how did that album end up coming about? Yeah, so that album was the first album that was the manifestation of prophecy and the Binks album that I made. And I really took that into consideration when I was making it. A lot of those songs were singles initially, I think probably about half and half. six came out beforehand, and then I saved six for the album.

And I was definitely on that motivational wave at that time, but also introspective in this, that, and the third. So I think with that album, the reason it feels so much like an album is the order of the songs. It starts bossed up and then says, but I used to be this way. And then it gives you insight to who I was before now. And then it shows the growth from that back to who I am today and then ties up in a bow. And I think that direction is what makes the album like this living, breathing piece of art. I couldn't agree more. One of the themes of it is the struggle with family. And it really resonates with both me and my partner. Her parents are kind of moving away, kind of distancing themselves. And so I think you do a great job of

highlighting the inter-family dynamics that can kind of take place. Could you talk a little bit about how that kind of came about? Yeah, so when I popped off, I lived at home for probably, when I say home, I mean my hometown for two years after I popped off. And then I decided to move out to Arizona just for more opportunity. I love the energy out here and all that. So it didn't cause turmoil in my family. More so it caused inner turmoil for me because I,

I had to make the conscious decision to miss out on moments with my family to obtain more success in my career. So these songs regarding that are just self-inter conflict that manifest onto the song of like, I know I made the decision. I'm still comfortable with the decision I made. And you can't base your whole life off of, you know, out of a place of fear of missing out on certain moments. So I think it was. just me outwardly coping with the decision I made to potentially miss out on certain moments with family 24-7 to pursue my career. Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. I'm just curious because you've created a really strong kind of circle or working group of other rappers who do inspire you,

who do you collaborate with and create amazing music with. Is there something deeper in regards to like, who is that inner circle? It's not always family. It's sometimes people that you might not expect. Absolutely. So I've made a lot of friends in this independent artist circle over the past few years. And yeah, some relationships grow more than others. You just link up their music. You make a song or two and you go on your separate ways.

But others evolve into actual friendships just because you share a love for the same topic. So, you know, cryptic wisdom, futuristic. Binks. Those are three like my really good friends that only developed over the past few years through music. And I think it is just that shared love for something. Fascinating. I'm curious as to like a song like Paradise because it's so deep. It meant a lot like all summer long, every summer, my partner and I listen to that song because it hits home on what a real relationship should look like. And again, with other music, it's very surface level, it's very meaningless and you hit on such deep ideas of just spending time together listening to music

enjoying each other's company and that's so different than some of the other songs in that album but it hits on such important points in regards to having strong connections with other people how did that song come about for you i don't know what we're allowed to talk about on this podcast but whatever you like okay full transparency i had a hell of a mushroom trip and it it it was at a point in my life once again where I was very structured was didn't want to talk to anybody who wasn't on the path of being successful and not cutting out their vices. I viewed myself as like I can't even associate with those people. I was making traction in my career, but I was I was a pretty toxic person at that point.

Had this mushroom trip and it stripped all of that away from me. It brought me back down to earth. I got connected with a higher power. And long story short, in a few hours, I remembered what is truly important. And I felt that way. Like, I felt blessed to be alive for months after that. Everything was like the greatest thing on earth. I recognized what was truly important in this life.

And it came out in my music. And that's how Paradise came about or just a whole album? Paradise specifically. Wow. What was the decision to do that? Some people go into it very, like, I want to change my mindset. Was that just an experience you were interested in having, or had you had other experiences? With mushrooms?

Yeah. Yeah, I've tripped a lot. And, but that one, okay, long, I'll tell you the story because it's fucking funny. So I go to my homie's house, plan to have a mushroom trip. I've tripped dozens of times before it's fun. We have some drinks. We trip. We laugh a lot.

Whatever. This one. I accidentally took more than twice as much as I ever had before. Accidentally. When my homie told me how much we were taking, I thought he meant together as a whole. And I was like, okay, that's only like a little bit more than I usually do. That's perfect.

I take him. He was like, all right, you took that much? I'm about to take mine this much. And I was like, no, no, no. Like, that's how much it was all of it. Right? He's like, no, you just took that. And I was like, oh my God.

My girlfriend was with me. I was like, I'm sorry for whatever's about to happen. Like, I've never taken this much. But by far, the most life-changing, incredible, beautiful, eye-opening trip I've ever had in my entire life. And it made me a very much more conscious person of myself, of the world, made me a lot more humble, a lot more kind, understanding, empathetic. And it just, it made me a much more well-rounded person.

now I will say I've grown since then as well I was very uh what's the word I was very calm and zero I basically had no drive because I was so okay with everything and like everything was so perfect I was like you don't need any more than you already have you know I had zero interest in material and things of that nature and what I can say has happened since then I am definitely not the person I was before the trip, but I've learned how to integrate being a human in this society with that mindset, because as beautiful as that mindset is, it's very easy. You don't really mesh with the way society works, and it's easy to get walked on and things of that nature because you're so loving and so docile is a funny word, but you're so calm that it's, it doesn't really mesh with how the world works. So I've learned to integrate who I was before with who I became afterwards. And I feel like it is the best of both worlds.

Incredible. Fair to say that love came out of that experience for you? That's all that came out of that experience. Wow. What was it like for your partner, if I may ask, to see that growth? I mean, you'd have to ask her, but I know from speaking to her about it, it was night and day, bro. It was two different people.

Fascinating. When you talk about that, I don't know if you watch the UFC, but I'm a pretty big fan of Israel, Adasanya. And he just kind of talked about how it's important to be able to be strong, be powerful, but to not always have to bring that out, not to be chauvinistic, not to shove that in people's faces. And it kind of sounds like that's sort of the journey you went through is like you need to be able to stand your ground. But you don't always want to be that person. You want to be able to be at peace and not feel like you need to get aggressive with people at every. instance, but you need to be able to have that within you in case people start to mistreat you or cross boundaries. Absolutely. So I heard on this podcast, I think it was on Joe Rogan. I don't remember. Oh, no, I'm sorry. It was Tom Bylu.

And he was talking to someone who used to be a bodybuilder, but he had a whole spiritual experience. And something he said really resonated with me, especially at that time. It is okay to be all these things, the businessman, the aggressive business. man, right? But he said he's also a father. But what he learned is you don't need to be one person all the time. When he's at work, he needs to be a little more stern and a businessman and get people to do their job. But when he goes to his front door, he's got to take a deep breath and turn into dad, who's a lot more empathetic and loving and will give you the time of day and not be

on his phone. So I think it is up to us to become more three-dimensional people with a lot of layers who can be very loving, empathetic, calm, but you can't take that same empathy, calm nature into a sporting event, right? So none of these are exclusively correct. They're all correct depending on where you are. I remember I went to a baseball game a year ago, let's say, and, you know, I'm all wrappered out.

I'm wearing a hoodie and tight jeans or rips and some nice shoes. And I felt like I didn't belong there. And I had a realization after the fact, I'm like, I wasn't adapting. I should have been wearing some shorts and a t-shirt and ready to just have a good time at a ballgame. I think we need to stop forcing these identities we place on ourselves in all scenarios. I think we need to observe what we're getting into and where we are constantly and adapt accordingly. Absolutely. I think I've gone through that as well.

We've gone to my partner and I've gone to events and felt like we were bringing a different energy than what was appropriate in that kind of circumstance. And you kind of have to be prepared or reflective, introspective, prior to going to things so that you know which self you want to be and how to kind of maximize the best possible experience. Absolutely. I think gauging the environment is step one. And then as long as you're still being yourself when it comes to your values and morals,

that's really what matters. But gauge the energy, see what will be received in that environment and kind of just just adapt, man. Humans are, you know, we adapt as creatures. It's just who we are. So I think people identify a little too hard with their ego and what they should be and what their experiences have crafted them to be. And I think we just need to let go of that a little bit. And that's another thing mushrooms help with big time. Absolutely. That kind of ego death and returning and going through hard times can bring that out. The song doubt stands out to me as we're kind of talking about this because it seems

like so many people don't reach their full potential purely because they doubted themselves. And you provide such insights on an inspiration to people on how to kind of change their mindset in regards to that because so many people say they were going to go do this, they wanted to go do that, and they never end up following through on these things because of their own kind of critiques of themselves. I can't do that. I'm not ready yet. So how did that song come about and what is your kind of philosophy when it comes to reaching your full potential? So that song came about when I was in that zone I was telling you about of working out two hours a day. Like I don't want to be around anybody who wants to party and this, that, and the third.

So it comes from a place as inspirational as it is. It came from a place of real aggression. And I'm sure you could hear that in the song. And also, so it came, that was the time I was in in my life then. But also, like, people who do live in that realm of, you should. do this you should do that but don't do anything with their lives i was also dealing with that too like people who i just couldn't even fathom giving me advice at that point were trying to like tell me shit and i was like it was frustrating um so once again i took it out in the music so i don't yell at people right

is that nice so i took it out in the music now although it came across as super aggressive it's all true right like sometimes you got to yell at people to get through them and i think 99% of people can't get out of their own way and really take a hold of their potential and and put it towards something i think we waste all our energy every day on bullshit and consuming as opposed to like we just have we all have so much to offer this world regardless of what it's towards and to not use any of that is crazy to me. And back then, it used to make me mad because I was like, it's one thing if certain randoms aren't using their potential, but when you see people you care about in a shitty situation, because of that, it pisses you off, you know, and you want

to like get through to them. It makes you upset. It makes you mad. And you try to get through to them. But I've learned a lot since that point in my life. And people are only, they're only receptive to so much that you can maybe plant a seed for them, but they're only willing to do what they're willing to do at that point in time. And you can't force anyone to do anything. You can, the most you can do I've learned is, like I said, plant those seeds, but even better than that is extend that olive branch, let people know that if they ever wanted to, you know, experience this route or try to take this avenue, that you will help them full-fledge and whatever they need. But you cannot force anyone to do anything.

don't want to do. They're living the way they're living because they think it's best. And when you try to tell them otherwise, you're challenging their belief systems and their entire life and the foundation of their existence at that point because it's how they're spending their finite time. And that does not yield good results I've learned. So the most you could do is, you know, when they do good things, congratulate them, encourage them. That'll be the positive motivation they need to keep going and offer them, like I said, extend the olive branch. But besides Zatman, forcing people to be better than they are now is a losing battle. Yeah, when I think of that song and just the message, I think of grocery store clerks.

Like we look down on certain roles in our society and go, oh, well, that's not a meaningful job. But we've all gone to the grocery store and had that person, and we go, hey, where do we find this thing? And then the person goes, oh, it's down that aisle to the left over there. And you're like, okay, I'm going to go. And we've had the other person who goes, oh, I, like, let me walk you over there. so we have this product and that product.

So you can make a difference in your life, even on a small level, even though you might think that job isn't as high, as high caliber as other positions. You start there, you do a good job there, and then you work towards the other things in your life. And that's kind of the message I got from that song, which is we all have a potential. And it might not feel like that what you're doing matters, but it absolutely does. And the mistake I think we so often make is undervaluing that. absolutely i was going to say it's the it's the value we're placing on things like it's how you define success like our definition of success whether it be financially

or making um living out your dream whatever you're passionate about a hobby no that should be your career that's the most valuable thing like says who and and if what makes you happy is working a chill nine to five because you just you know money if you have enough you have enough right? Anything more than enough is whatever. So if you have enough money and you just want to spend some time there and then spend the rest of your time like chilling with family and friends, guess what? Maybe that's better than what we're doing because you're having like incredible relationships and life experiences. So we can't, we can't tell anyone what's more valuable than the next thing in terms of life experience. For sure. Has the definition of success for you

changed throughout your career, it seems like there's a lot of pressure put on people like yourself for either, whether it's views, whether it's monetary value. There's so many things coming at you as like, this is what the bar is for success. But has your definition personally of what you're proud of and what success looks like for you changed over the years? Absolutely. I'm still very big into finance and business. I just find it interesting. It's like it's a game of monopoly. So it's just it's fun but yes i used to when i was younger wanted to be famous i can give a fuck about that now like i cool i have fans and that's great i love that and i don't take any of them for granted but i'm not like yeah man like i wish i can go outside and everyone swarms me because they know

who i am like i don't want that and and like i said i have more than enough money so when i had you know three times more the money that i needed i wasn't noticeably happier when I got five times of money I needed. It felt like when I had three times of money I needed. So that was a learning experience. And now as long as I am, I guess my definition of success now or what I'm striving for is making an impact on others, which in turn will give you financial gain because you're adding value to the world.

But so yeah, impacting others and meaningful relationships, good times with good people. because at the end of the day, that's all that fucking matters. That is incredible, and I couldn't agree with you more. Is there a place you hope to go moving forward? Is there ideas you have in terms of what success might look like in the future? In terms of the music, obviously you want it to be as big as possible. But all I can do is continue to have life experiences and then speak on them in the music and hope that they just continue to impact a greater number of people.

That makes sense. What was the transition like? Because it sounds like now you have a studio at home. You're able to focus on this full-time. Someone who gets to do kind of this podcast part-time, what was it like to be able to transition and say, I don't have to have a 9-to-5, I don't have to do anything else.

I can focus on what I absolutely love to do in a space I want to do it in. What was that transition like? That was one of the greatest days in my life. when I pulled out of my 9 to 5's parking lot for the last time ever, and I knew it was the last time ever. That was incredible. But it comes with a level of stress, man, because if you are the deciding factor of how successfully your business is,

when do you turn the switch off? And that's something I still struggle with. I could make the best song in my life. And if I don't get back in the studio in the next two days, I'm stir crazy because I feel like I'm doing myself a disservice. So I still struggle with that balance of turning that switch off because I just feel like there's so much I can offer. But that's not to be mistaken with remorse or regret that I've done this. It's just it's a balancing act.

No one teaches you how to do any of this. Yeah. Yeah, you think of like you get what 15 hours maybe in a day. And there's a certain point where you realize that you could be as effective as you want to be with that 15 hours. a day and then there's like well when do you stop what when is when is success enough when should you stop working on a song when should you stop working on a podcast editing trying to improve something because it's all in your hands and i think a big thing that that you point out is like you are the only person standing in your way and other people aren't going to encourage you

the way like they're not going to do it for you you have to do it for yourself and so your metric of when you're done for the day also has to be kind of checked and monitored was that a challenge for you? And do you feel like you found a balance? I'm currently finding the balance. And at one point in time, I had my entire day optimized, like on paper of what would be most effective for my business and how could I squeeze the most time out for music. Like, this is breakfast time. This is lunch. This is dinner. I'll read a book here. I'll do music here. I'll meditate here. And what I realize, though, bro, is when you make lists like, that to optimize your business or your success level, you don't incorporate things that actually

really make you happy. And it'll project your business further, but you'll feel the effects of it sooner or later because you're not being a human. Yeah, it's like a short-term plan because if you don't have it for like longevity and one of the kind of concepts I like is like, you need to figure out a way to do your best, not only today, but this week, this month, this year, in the next 10 years, the next 20 years, but not only only that. You want to do that in a way that's good for you, your spouse, your family, for the long term as well. And that's a very narrow line to walk in order to kind of get all of those things right. For sure. At one point, I was like, oh, I'll incorporate relaxation into my day,

right? Like, as a part of the schedule, I'll play some video games here, oh, whatever here. That necessarily didn't work for me either because life doesn't work like that. Life is a very flowing thing that isn't regimented, right? Like look in nature and how it operates. So I think having a rough, if we're talking about success and happiness and balancing that, I think it's have a rough plan of when you want to work and just make it your main focus, right? We overcomplicate everything as humans. And it's like, make that one thing that you want to do good at your main focus. Stop trying to do the 10 things to start your morning routine. That'll make me a superhuman. all that, right? Just

allocate a solid amount of time towards the shit you want to see do better, and it will, because you're watering that seed constantly. And then when opportunities to have a fun life experience with friends, family, a new thing that came out of the blue, fucking

jump at it, because that is what's going to fill your cup so that you can continue to pour energy into that thing you're trying to develop. I couldn't agree more. My partner, Rebecca, and I actually went on a trip to Hawaii as our first ever trip. It was like five years ago. And we had a terrible time because we were checking other people's boxes. We were going to the beach and taking the photos and we were doing the

tour that everybody says you're supposed to go on. And we just didn't have that good of a time because we weren't maximizing the experience for us. And we were still bringing that fiscal conservatory to the experience of like, oh, does that really make sense to go all out here? Shouldn't we be fiscally conservative and responsible? And it's like, what are we doing? This is a trip. This is supposed to be fun. This is supposed to be an experience. The other thing I wanted to ask you about is social media. It seems like such a gift because it exposes your voice and your craft and your abilities to other people.

But it's a fine line between being able to put it out and share that versus watching for likes and clicks and views. How do you navigate that? Because you're putting out some incredible content guiding people on how you make your music and kind of the steps. yeah that's a tough one and that is something i struggle with i try to get my screen time down but they got those uh algorithms locked in to keep our attention um i wish there was a um a branch of these social medias that allowed you to just be a creator and almost not have a feed like so it's either you you can choose to consume or put out right and because i keep it on my phone so i could put it out. And I've, I've repeatedly deleted them off my phone. So I'm like, okay, I'll download them

when I need to put stuff out and I'll delete them. Otherwise, otherwise, otherwise I'll be on my phone all the time. But there's so, there's been opportunities that come through social media for me. I'll get a DM from someone and then something incredible comes out of it. So it's not feasible for me. Um, yeah, man, the balance of social media is a tough one. I think that's something we're all trying to figure out right now. But I'll tell you one thing. It is not healthy to absorb that much information every day. It's taking up too much of our mental bandwidth and that's just hurting whatever we're trying to produce in this world, let alone content or music. Like, whatever impact you're trying to make, whether it's a solid

conversation with someone, it is chipping away at that mental fortitude that you have. Absolutely. Can I just ask, though, how do you develop your content? Because those videos where you're breaking down like, oh, you start with this, then you move into this piece and like, this is how you make a song. That's, it's incredible. It's so, like, to me as a, as a consumer of your music and a fan, it's so fascinating to see you go through that journey. How do you come up with this? Do you have someone working with you, or is this just out of your own mind? So, yeah, it's all me. I handle all that. It came to me because I know a lot of this stuff for me is so second nature and I don't even think it's cool because I've been doing it for so long.

all my friends it's not cool too because they it's like it's like me teaching you like here's how you walk you're going to take your right foot and if you're your left foot it's just so second nature so but i'm like it's not for everybody so i'm going to give everyone a peek behind the curtains of things that they haven't seen and um it also helps me because you know in today's day and age you got to be putting out relentless amounts of content but that shit destroys my soul sometimes so i'm like what's the way i could put a good amount of content out without living on my phone, and what does that look like? So what I've settled on recently is I'll make a reel in TikTok to promote it a certain

aspect of the song. I'll make another reel when it drops of a different part of the song. And then the third one will just be a piece of value content regarding that song of here's how I did this, where they could learn something from it. And that's three is fine for me, not on my phone all time, but I still give everyone a solid amount of content. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we're so lucky that you're willing to interact.

with fans and I think that that's probably one of the biggest challenge is because now you're having to go and respond to people in part because you care and you're a kind person but also because it helps the algorithms and makes sure that they're getting responses and I think that that's the big one of the biggest challenges to me with it is that there's an incentive to try and communicate on the platform even though for the creators you want them to have a healthy mind state we want them to be well and it just it seems like such a difficult thing to balance Yeah, I think we could benefit from taking that same energy that we're using to respond

to people and constantly be tapped in with the socials to creating, it sounds like ass backwards, but take that same energy to create just more content that provides value. And arguably, that's going to give you more followers than responding to your current followers will give you. And it sucks because it lacks humanity, right? Because it's like, these people are supporting you and you want to interact with them, but there's only so much mental bandwidth. that you have.

And I think being communicative and transparent about that is like, I can't, I'll respond to you guys sometimes, but if I respond to everyone all the time, you're not going to get anything else out of me. And then there's nothing to talk about. So I think it's all personal. I think some people have the fortitude to be all over social media and still live their life very, you know, normally like futuristic. My friend is all over social media.

The amount of content he makes is ridiculous, and he's still just on the up and up every day. Like, it doesn't bother him at all. He's built for it. So I think just gauge yourself, see what you're capable of, and then decide how many people you want to answer, how much content you want to make. But never sacrifice either of those things for feeling good, because that is a trash trade. Absolutely. Yeah, I think he even takes people's phone calls as well. I think he's put out on Facebook, like, give me a call.

And it's just like, you are a brave individual to take on that amount. to people. I don't know how he does it, but I respect it. Can I ask, who are some of your role models? You've mentioned futuristic. You've mentioned cryptic wisdom. Who are some of the artists you enjoy listening to? And I'm just curious, behind the scenes, do you reach out and go, hey, that was a great song. Oh my gosh, this is, this is, this hit really well. How do you guys communicate? Yeah, so I'll be honest. I don't, I don't listen to too many artists. I have like three. I listen to it. When they drop new albums, I just, copham um but that speaks to my nature in general like i said i live on one side of the fence

for three months and then the other side of the fence so um my i'll say this my biggest inspirations to start rapping if i had to say three or probably m&m obviously uh little wayne and 50 cent those are probably my top three back then now um now it's not so much the music that inspires me, right? I'll listen to whoever, but like, Russ is probably a big one for me because of just the way. He's kind of like, do it your own way, move at your pace, and do you. Don't let these algorithms or labels tell you have to do shit a certain way. And that's something I've really taken to heart now, because at the end of the day, although I do listen to some music, I am more of a creator than the consumer. So I take my

inspiration from others who have um you know uh made that route very like easy to follow and um i just think i'm coming from a different place on that but in terms of who i listen to man uh it's i'm so picky i've been big into jelly roll lately he's uh i've been listening to him a lot it's weird i don't listen to as much hip hop as you think i'm big into like hard like aggressive uh not rock music punk i guess is what you would call it. And I don't even mean pop punk as much as I love it. But I'll listen to like scream-o bands. Really?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of Russ as well. I've been listening to a song, Bet, more recently because I think that song's really good. Hell, yeah. I'm curious as to where, are you coming out with new music? Like, you just dropped and that song is absolutely incredible. But do you have an album coming out in the short term?

What does the next kind of year look like? Yeah. So I'm working on a. right now, not an album, because if I was to not release music until an album's done, you guys aren't getting anything for months. So an EP, I have this, my toxic trade is that I can't not release music for more than like a month. It like bothers me. So I'm working on an EP. I have two, I'm working on the third song of it right now. So three out of five. That's what I was doing before you called me. And then hopefully that drops early next year. And we shake

the world with it because I hold myself to a very high standard. And that, that's my blessing and my curse. Perfectionism is my blessing and my curse. When it works, the music sounds phenomenal because I'm so picky. When it doesn't work, it's because of my perfectionism. Right. How can people support you? Like, I love sharing your guys's music. I love posting it, putting it on social media. But I think it's so important because there's like two realms. There's whatever the heck is on the top 10 list, which is nonsense. And then there's real creators like yourself who are putting out positive content that sets an example for people on how to live a meaningful life. But it seems like your supporters need to do more in order to make sure that your voice gets out there. And I know

from a humble perspective, you might be like, oh, just enjoy the music. But I think it's important that we support you even further because it's important that other people get access to your voice. when I think of one of your lines was like surround yourself with bosses and less consumers. Like that is genuine advice that needs to be on like every bus in town because we get so locked into kind of just consuming. And so I'm just curious, how can people really support you? In today's day and age with social media, it's weird. I'd say the typical stuff, you know, interact with the content, like, comment, share on your stories, follow me on Spotify. because that helps

algorithms. Dude, everything, it's like everything I'm saying is just algorithm boosters because that's what runs the internet right now. And it sucks to say, but yeah, share the content, like it, follow me on all platforms so that, you know, they see it and they push it even more and then

new people see it, but I would say that's it. And obviously, word of mouth, right? Share the music with your friends and the songs that really resonate with you that really moved you to your core. Maybe it can move then. Maybe you can help them. And so I I think that's very underrated, it's word of mouth. If every one of my fans told one person, I would double my fan base.

Absolutely. And I think well worthwhile, because there's such insights on how to reach your full potential. I'm also curious as to, like, where is the difference between Spotify and Apple Music? So many creators talk about Spotify over Apple Music. And I'm just curious as to why there's a bit more of a focus on Spotify. that's interesting i never thought about it i always do refer to spotify more um apple pays more than spotify by a decent amount um i think i think artists refer to spotify a lot because um there's something called spotify for artists which just gives you real time stats of your music and

how many people are listening to you live right now how many streams you got in the past week how many followers you have so i think that is on the forefront of people's minds also i think spotify are a huge career pusher. So I think everyone wants to drive people to their Spotify. But realistically, Apple pays more than Spotify. I just think, I think Spotify is like the iPhone of music platforms in the conversation. Interesting. Yeah, because I'm an Apple music fan and I often see people post their Spotify numbers and stuff. And I'm like, I'm going to share it on Apple Podcasts, but or Apple Music. And I don't know if there's a significant difference or downside. So I'm glad that it's more supportive. You know what it is too, man?

the numbers are bigger on Spotify. Like, if you saw, I don't know for what reason, but I guess it's just because more people use it. And it's funny, because I use Apple Music, too. I don't have a Spotify. So if you look at my streams, though, on Spotify to Apple, it's out of the water bigger. Wow.

That's good to know. Can you leave listeners with some advice? You've obviously bet on yourself, taking the risk on yourself, and it's paid dividends in your life. It's allowed you to share your voice, which I think is incredibly important, as we go through such weird times in our culture.

Do you have any advice for listeners? Whatever you want to do in life, don't let anybody alter your perception on that. Go at it full force. Nothing wants to stand in front of a force that is relentless. Just keep going. Keep watering that seed. Things aren't meant to manifest overnight. It took me 10 years to be an overnight success, literally as cliche as that saying is,

that was actually real. and just don't let up. When you feel discomfort, that means you're growing because if you're not feeling discomfort, you're already acclimated to whatever feeling situation you're in. Once that discomfort comes in, you are officially growing.

Lean into that. Make sure it's in something that you want to do, not something that the internet made look cool. Figure out your passion and go at it full fucking force. Don't let opinions deter you. Don't let algorithms deter you. If you know it's good, it's fucking good. And just keep getting better at it.

That is incredible. This has been such a trip for me. I'm so honored that you're willing to share your time. I've learned so much in this conversation, and I just couldn't be more grateful to have had the opportunity to speak with you today. So I really appreciate all of your time and all of your insights. Anytime, man. It was a blast for me, too.

And like I said, you guys set up is impressive. So keep going. Thank you.