Nuanced. - 90. Tchadas Leo: Our Native Land Podcast & Journalism

Episode Date: January 31, 2023

Aaron sits down with Tchadas Leo to discuss his popular podcast Our Native Land, his passion for journalism and storytelling.  Tchadas Leo is an award winning Indigenous podcasting/TV host and producer of CHEK TV’s Our Native Land.  He is currently completing his Broadcasting and Online Journalism Diploma at BCIT. Tchadas’ journalistic stories has also been featured on CBC Edmonton and he enjoys making stories to share with the public.  He is also the host of 2 other podcasts that are based in Indigenous culture, tourism and language. Besides being in the broadcasting industry, Tchadas is an Indigenous actor who’s been on such films as Luna: Spirit of the Whale and the Great Salish Heist. Listen to Our Native Land Podcast: https://www.cheknews.ca/podcasts/our-native-land/Send us a textThe "What's Going On?" PodcastThink casual, relatable discussions like you'd overhear in a barbershop....Listen on: Apple Podcasts   SpotifySupport the shownuancedmedia.ca

Well, I have the distinct pleasure of sitting down with Chattis Leo today. I really appreciate you being able to share your time. You are the host of an excellent podcast called Our Native Land. Can you give listeners a brief introduction of yourself and the work you do? Absolutely. Yes, like you said, my name is Chattis Leo, and I am half indigenous and I'm half South American, indigenous from the Humalko First Nation, as well as the Stilluamish tribe of Indians out of Washington just below us. My mother is South American, both Peruvian and Argentinians, so I'm quite the

mix. And that's about my background. I grew up on Vancouver Island. I'm temporarily in Burnaby studying at BCIT, broadcast and journalism. And yes, I host a show called Our Native Land through Czech TV, which is an employee-owned company based out of Victoria. And we started the podcast two years ago. We just hit our two year anniversary, our 100th episode. And through that, the show focuses on indigenous people, culture, heritage, food, anything that is indigenous that I find interesting or deem interesting, I want to learn about it. So I invite guests on the show, just similar to yourself, to talk about whatever it is that they do. So that's, in essence, my background, who I am and what this show's about. Brilliant. How did you get started in

communicating with others. You mentioned journalism is an interest of yours. How did this come about for you? Yeah, absolutely. So you're trying to clarify, like, how did the show come about? Is that correct? No. How did your interest in this field come about? Oh, yes. Yeah. Well, it actually started through this show would be, be like how I got re-interested. I started when I was very young, 12 years old. My mother gave me a video camera, and I just wanted to do something with it. And at the same time, a local TV station in Canber River on Vancouver Island, showed up at my high school or middle school or high school and said once in a blue moon, we hire, you know, volunteers or we bring volunteers in, especially students who are interested in TV. And I just got in this video cam.

I thought, hey, maybe these two go together. And sure enough, I went and volunteered at this station and just fell in love with the craft right away. And I did that when I was 16 and then eventually they hired me as a associate produced student associate producer and from there shaw tv bought out the local company and i worked for shaw up until i graduated high school and moved to an imo to further my studies and so the interest kind of dissipated for a while and then come to uh march 2020 which a lot of people will have a bit of PTSD when it comes to that date uh obviously covid uh i was managing a restaurant and bar inside of a hotel in an Imo. And because it's a hotel, tourism, everything shut down. So that meant my job was no longer. And at that point, I had to make

decision, what is the job that I love the most? Where have I gone where I didn't feel like I was working a day in my life? And it was the TV station. So sure enough, I started trying to reach out. At that time, check had a posting for a TV personality. Didn't quite get that position but they found me intriguing for lack of the better word and sure enough um you know rolled to about a few months after making initial contact with them they opened up a podcast booth and they asked me if i could be the first podcast on that on on the tv station i said absolutely and then through that podcasting i was like i want to do more of this how can i do more of this and I knew, you know, looked into it.

BCIT, a broadcast and journalism program, and Burnaby is fantastic. You know, most, a lot of the journalists you see on TV right now have gone to this exact school and are extremely successful. So I had to make the change and leave my family temporarily to pursue this dream. So in long form, that's how I got here. Fascinating. Can you tell us about the podcast? What was your idea for it? how did it come about for you? What was your vision for it?

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the crazy thing when you start a podcast, and I'll be perfectly honest, when I heard a podcast, I hadn't listened to one yet when I had the offer. So at that point, it's like, okay, now I need to figure out what podcasting is. So, but making my own. So what I did is we just needed to kind of construct an idea. I worked with the general manager, Rob Germain, Chihuahua, great to did a gratitude. to my success to, and we wanted to do something indigenous focus, and I like talking to people. I love interviewing people. I used to have an old radio show back in the day at CHOI 101.1.1.7 FM in Animo when I was

going to school the first time. And I did a similar format of just like calling people in and talking them and finding out more about them. And I felt like there needs to be a platform to do this or more platforms to do this and check obviously having a fairly large reach across uh you know vancouver island bc and western canada uh i thought it was just i thought like all the stars align it was just the right thing to do right brilliant and how do you go about selecting guests is that completely up to you how do you think about choosing who you want to speak with yeah absolutely um it it's evolved for sure like uh when i first started and you're starting to show when you have, you supposedly have zero listeners, you know, and reaching out to people and be like,

hey, do you want to be on this show that doesn't exist yet? So you really got to, like, battle in email and explain and, like, really put yourself out there. So it was a lot of just thinking of, okay, what do I find interesting? What do I find compelling to me? And then I find an indigenous version of that. So, you know, like as recently as just last week, I interviewed a micro wrestler. So I like, I used to watch a lot of wrestling when I was younger. I was like, maybe there's an indigenous wrestler out there. Found a little person wrestler is how he likes to be referred to. And just like that, I have them on the show.

So it's really fluid to what I want to learn. And then I find an indigenous version of that. And then hopefully the guests and guests get to teach me something new. And hopefully the listeners enjoy learning with me, which is I think the basis of it. Now because the show is being quite successful, I just get a lot of emails and suggestions of people who want to be on the show or they have agents who will email me and say, hey, can you have this person on? So now with the popularity, I can kind of pick, you know, what I want to have on the show, who I want to have on the show rather. And how do you approach it? Do you go in with a list of questions and say, this is what I want to ask about or do you let it free flow?

how do you kind of approach that preparation part of the interview? I think people would notice kind of within the early first year of the show that I was a bit more, I'm just going to say, I was a bit more prepared if that makes any sense. So I was prepared and like I had questions and I wanted to stick to my questions, especially when you're doing journalism, you really want to get those points across so you can make this story happen, right? But podcasting has this fluidity to it just like your show where it's like it's a conversation. So I found myself that I was so curious about these guests that I knew that as time goes by that I'm just going to get more comfortable with myself and the guests and that I was just going to go in and just ask questions.

So to be honest, you know, if a little behind the scenes answer for that is I really don't write my questions down, I really like to engage in the conversation I'm having with somebody because I find myself, you know, if I got these questions listed and, and they answer my last question, I should be diving in more if I find it interesting. Instead, I would just hit that question, and it was fairly irrelevant to the conversation. So I find some of the best podcasts that I even like to listen to. They're just, you know, very loose and groovy and friendly and has this fluid feel to it. You mentioned journalism, and I'm just curious, how do you think about the responsibility to ask the tough follow-up? That's, I think, the art where we get into a bit more detail when you're having individuals on who hold a stature in our community, who have responsibilities. How do you like to approach that when you're thinking, okay, this person's maybe giving a vanilla answer, something very safe?

Do you feel an obligation to do a follow-up or how do you kind of think about that process? Yeah, that's very interesting, too, because I've been criticized online for being vanilla with my questions. Um, you know, like a perfect example is with, with John Hogan, uh, I had on the show a few months back now. And the, you know, there's a lot of people that have a lot of hard questions that they want to ask a politician. And, and you may never get to sit in front of that politician ask those hard questions. Um, and maybe if I was a podcast where I wasn't part of a news situation where I'm studying to be a journalist and like, I have to ask questions that are hard, but I also have to ask questions that are fair and neutral and, and make sure that it's in the

interest of all listeners, all Canadians, right? So I do like to ask hard questions. It just depends on who it is, right? And surprisingly enough, a lot of those hard questions I don't ask politicians. Sometimes I ask hard questions to an artist or, you know, an activist or that kind of thing. So I find the hard questions more compelling, you know, that people that are politicians, right? because I think hard questions tend to really be veered towards them. And I think there's other shows for that. There's other people that do that really well. And I'll do that in my journalistic career.

But I like how I ask questions. And some of the hardest questions I've ever asked, and I've said this on another podcast before, I'll just ask, why should people care? Or why should I care? And it sounds a little rude, and I haven't been punished out yet, but it really brings out passion in people.

And it would bring it out of me too. So I like to ask what I would like to be asked. And those hard questions sometimes are to those people. And they really get to demonstrate their true self. I know I answer that very long and complicated, but that's how I can answer that. That's why I like your perspective on it because I find myself thinking about what I actually want to talk about. And trying to hold to that line could be impacted by individuals who want certain. questions asked that you're just not interested in. And maybe it's an issue that's not personal

to you. So it's not your issue to raise. And it's not a fight you want to battle. And so it is a line to walk, though, as you grow and as you reach more people, that there are certain topics you can't veer away from. You need to, as the host, manage that. And it's something that fascinates me because it's the art of being a journalist. How do you make sure that you're fair? You don't go too hard, but you make sure that you hold your own integrity in line as the host. And so that's why I was interested in your thoughts. Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's, you could, you took words right in my, my mouth. It's like, how do I find that integrity, but also being myself, because obviously as a human being, I have an opinion. I have, you know, I can vote,

you know, I can do all these things, right? But I'm also trying to build a career, uh, where people can trust that I'm getting both sides of the story, that I'm really trying to to make sure that if I'm going to do a story that everybody's voice, or at least the perspective of what the story is, gets told in such a way that both sides of the story are told. And it's a real challenge. And I think I will struggle with it as long as I have a podcast that I can again have roughly my opinion and my guest's opinion and then also be able to be on the news and be critical. I don't think that challenge will go away to be honest. when you think about interviewing it can seem like it's only for a podcast or it's only for the

news but you're actually learning how to have a conversation with another person and it's shocking to me to start to see other people really struggle with that like you can see when the conversation dies down or when there there isn't a good follow up from the other person on what's going on in the world or or their thoughts on things so i'm interested how is this kind of shaped your ability to communicate with other people yeah no that's a great question i'm going to to first back up that question and let you know how I was able to do this in the first place that I used to sell cars. And you've got to have this level of confidence to sell cars. And that people skill from there helped me do what I do now, which is the confidence to talk to

people, ask the questions hard or not. So that's kind of where that came from. Now, in regards to how it's changed me now, I mean, obviously it's helped me develop an early career in journalism. but I think it makes me more of a critical thinker. It made me look at, you know, look at life in a different way, really, and again, focusing on my background, you know, from my father's the side, which is indigenous. And the focus on that really opened my eyes to issues with our people and our community from Vancouver Island and abroad. So I think it's opened my eyes.

It's opened my heart. It's made me compassionate for more. people doing different things you know it's just it gives it kind of takes over you know like i can't i can't just you know keep to myself when i'm doing this i it's it's part of the it's part of the job is to get out and and pull information from people and hopefully um it shows that i care and and the listeners and viewers can can care as much as i do right how do you go about improving do you have a process in which you think about how you want to make changes or where you want to take things? Or like you mentioned the John Horgan interview.

Did you take things away from that? Did you sit with that for a while and think about what you might have done differently? Or did you try and block that out? How do you kind of process the journey that is, because I remember my first interview, to now it looks nothing the same. In every interview, it's like, should I have asked that? Did I use filler words? How do I think about that issue?

Should I have done more research there? How do you kind of go through the process of each episode and the incremental growth that you go through? Yeah, totally. Should have, could have, would it, right? You know, I mean, back in the day, I would say within the first year, I really was critical. And we could say too critical, especially because we are our own worst critic. I spend a lot of time really, like, I should have asked that. Why didn't I ask this?

Or, you know, and you know what, you can, unfortunately, you just can't go back. And then you learn over time that, like, okay. that's where the list became shorter, where I had less questions. And then through those less questions, the questions got better because they came from the heart and the soul and less from paper and researching. And I find like if I want to research somebody, I try and do it very briefly. I don't let, you know, Google formulate my opinion too much except for the basics, right? So over time, I think the confidence just keeps getting better because people will respond Right? You know, I have friends who will tell me about the journey I've had and how they've seen the changes. And I'll have guests that have said they've seen improvements and listeners that will write in or comment online with their appreciation. And I think if you got a good, you know, fan base that enjoys your show, they're really going to dictate how you feel, how you improve. Because those compliments and stuff they say they like is going to how you, you're going to hone that, right?

And another way that I like to improve is I like to take the show on the road because it throws you off, right? There's this comfort that mean you have of just sitting here with a mic and a headphones. But I like to throw it off. I like to go out. You know, I just recently got back from the Yukon and I think I'm getting, you know, three, four episodes out of that. So it's a great listen, but it's also even a better watch. So challenging myself is also a huge improvement for me. Is there someone that stands out to you that you really learned something from?

It's not fair to host to say, which is your favorite guest? But is there somebody who stands out to you where you really took something away from the interview where you walked away with a new perspective? Yes, I've had this question asked before in similar ways, in different ways, sorry. The one that I thought about recently that I haven't mentioned before is Art Napoleon. and he is a fantastic TV host producer through APTN and he has his Moose Meat and Marmalade episode or sorry, TV show that he does and he travels the world hunting, cooking with a French train chef and it's a beautiful dynamic. Anyways, his work ethic is what stood out for me and the way he carries himself, how he's

done everything with dignity and grace and done it the right way. because, you know, there's ways how people can get, you know, improve and maybe it's not necessarily the right road, right? You know, sometimes you take the easy one. And, you know, sometimes roads are hard and it looks like he had, you know, an incredible journey and he's still producing and doing that show to the day. It's really hard to answer that because, you know, like I said, every guest is inspiring in their own way and they're there for a reason. But I think art in particular really show me that like just keep going, right? You know, he's definitely in his, you know, he seems in his, in his, I'd say in his early to late 50s, and he's still going strong.

And, you know, his success maybe came later in life, but, you know, he's an incredible story and inspiration for me personally. Interesting. You've mentioned journalism. What, where do you hope to take that? There's a certain value that I don't think we give journalists. They inform us, they give us an ability to understand issues on a deeper level. They give us different perspectives to draw from when we're talking about an issue. What pulled you in that direction?

What made you want to sign up with BCIT? What's pulling you in that direction? Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you for asking. Now, I've mentioned this in a lot of podcasts, and I'll continue to do so because it's my truth, is that I really want to be a reporter that happens to be indigenous and does focus on indigenous stories, but other stories as well. I don't tend to be an indigenous reporter

because there's a time and place for that and there's a person for that. You know, Womish Hamilton is a huge inspiration out of CBC Vancouver. Amazing human being does amazing work and he really focuses on indigenous stories. I want to be, I want to do those, but I want to be able to expand and grow

and show that indigenous people can do all stories. And so can other people too. Other people can do indigenous stories properly because there's not enough of us. And that's the biggest goal is like, I don't think there's enough of us and I want there to be more. And so why not me? Why not I try? Why not I give it a shot and see if I can do it and get more indigenous people on the screen? More people that when I was young, looking at TV, like, you know, some amazing anchors and amazing reporters and I'd like none of them look like me, right? And I think that's, there's a huge global shift for that. And it's going really, really well, in my opinion. And I just want, I want to be a part of that wave. I just want to be, I want to be, I want to be, doing that and I want hopefully some young indigenous kid or young South American kid sees me and and hope that he can do the same and I hope he does or she does or whoever however they

identify does. Interesting. That is the challenge right is becoming like typecast and having an audience or a viewpoint that you're supposed to provide everybody where you're a multifaceted person with different interests and complexities and nuanced views on certain issues like you're not a person reporting on that type of issue that's true and like i said that's okay that's not me and there's going to be other people that can do that but i i think i think i like i like being that diverse and i'll be i'll admit there's being times where i've just done you know like story after story and it's being all indigenous and i'm like am i getting put in this corner or like and i'm not i'm just i'm just not realizing that i'm gravitating towards those stories right um

in that it's me doing it. You know, and I think a lot of people get a little scared of tokenism and this type of thing, which is the whole other topic. But in the sense, it's like I'm embracing it now and I love it. And, you know, I'm going to continue to do Indigenous stories and all stories alike. I just say, I can't wait. I've gotten started obviously through school, but, you know, school is going to be on its way out soon and hopefully full time of the field.

What interests you about the practice of journalism, the philosophy, the responsibilities, the role they play in our society. Is there something about that that stands out for you? Yeah, it does, and it might not be as philosophical as you'd hope, but there is something to be said about storytelling, right? There's so many different versions of it. You know, there's books, there's poetry, you know. There's all these very traditional artistic avenues of storytelling,

and I truly think that this is one of my art forms, or at least journalists have this type of, way of constructing a story and doing it in a way where it's informative. It can be beautiful. It could be sad. It could be angry. It could be so many things. It could be all of the human emotions in one go. And I think that that's what attracted me to it is that it's this art form that can be, you know, not that all art forms are useful, but it'd be our very useful art form on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, monthly basis, hourly basis, right? And I just something about that attracted me to it. And I just love it. I don't know if I actually

answered your question. You did. And it was much more philosophical than you gave yourself credit for. And I couldn't agree more. When the Fraser Valley floods happened, we got to see the Fraser Valley Current, which is a very unique new source in my opinion, really deliver for people. and people actually left their homes, based on the advice of the Fraser Valley Current, before there were actual people saying, you need to leave your homes. They were saying, this looks like what's going to happen. You should probably evacuate or get ready to evacuate the evacuation order is coming soon. And people made decisions and seeing people's posts saying,

I wouldn't have gotten out of my house on time. I wouldn't have been in the circumstance. I would have lost more had I not read your article. Shows the impact that it can have in those serious moments. And that's it, yeah, like the power of journalism. is where that comes into play like it can be as small as change in one person's life you know and it can be as simple as like i'm going to use example like uh joe perkins uh the six o'clock weekday anchor for check tv he does um like uh an eating uh like um oh my god i'm forget

forgetting the name but it's a it's a segment that where they go he goes and tries a different restaurant somewhere vancouver island every single week and just popping into that one store and having a really good sandwich and telling everybody about it all of a sudden that business owner's life just blows up and everybody loves it and it's just it's changed a life so it can change as little as one life or thousands of people in the Fraser Valley when there's a flood and that's also one thing I love about because it just like you feel helpful like how nice I think a lot of us want that as human beings are like go to if I'm going to go to work how who am I helping do they appreciate it I am I making a difference all these things

come to play as human beings for most of us. And I think journalism kind of ticks those boxes off, at least for me. Absolutely. You've talked about using your voice and sharing it. Do you have advice for people? I find that that first step seems to be the hardest for so many to develop their voice and share their ideas. I just interviewed a person who was very passionate about whiskey and he had never started a YouTube channel. He didn't, he knows so much yet he didn't have the confidence to take that step and start sharing it on his own platform where he's sharing his ideas. Now, a couple months later, he's got his YouTube channel up and running. It's getting thousands of views every day, and he's got new posts, and it's doing really

well. But you can see for people that taking that first step and taking the risk on themselves can be the most daunting part of the whole process. Once you're in it, it's just about improving it. But that first step is the hardest. Do you have any advice for people who are struggling with that, who are hesitant to take their first step? Yeah, no, absolutely. I would say, like, there is this fear, of course, of just putting yourself out there. So get a close group of friends and family and then have a little, have a little premiere, is what I would suggest.

Like, do what you think you want to do, and then bring in the people that you trust the most, people that have been there no matter what, people that truly believe in you. And then they're going to be the most honest, right? And they'll be like the cream of the crop of opinions of like what works, what doesn't work. Obviously, if you're so passionate and you know it's right and everybody tells you it's wrong and it's, you know, not a crime, like try it anyways. But if you really feel like you got that close community or group of friends or family that might give you that first like premier kind of like, you know, what works, what doesn't work,

then maybe, just maybe they can give you that confidence to go the next step and post it. And that's the things. Once you hit post, it's out there, right? It's an incredible feeling when you first start. And it's, again, all of the human emotions of like scared, angry, happy, a little sad if it goes wrong. But, you know, even for me, like, the show was two years ago. So I would have been, like, approaching 29 years old and having to, like, get on Instagram and, like, be active every day. And I know even have a year ago I did, you know, opened up a TikTok account.

and especially people that aren't growing up in that generation of, like, social media all the time every day, it's scary. So I understand. Yeah, absolutely. It is one of the most difficult things to do when you're a thoughtful thinking person to be on some of those platforms and try and communicate and trying to build a level of communication with people. Exactly. And for me, it's a fine balance because I want people to, like, enjoy my character and who I am and a bit of my opinion and my personality. But the main focus is always the guest, right? So like I really want people to, it's like posting in a way where it's like, okay, this guy

is kind of cool, but this person's cooler, right? So it's just that fine line of like posting in a way where I'm hopefully attracting an audience and then hopefully that audience is paying attention to who I'm talking to. Well, I'll turn it on its head then. Why should people care? Why should people tune in to the Our Native Land podcast? I love it. I was kind of expecting you to do that at some point.

I thought it was right away. But anyways, why should people care? Great question. I think people should care because we're in such a critical time in Canadian history where indigenous issues are at top of mine, top of the news. And, you know, it should have been this way a long time ago. It is just now that indigenous communities are building the trust again and rebuilding the building blocks with TV stations.

newspapers, radio stations, because there was a time where if they did do an interview, it didn't go their way and it would get publishing correctly and it would be false information and it wouldn't make indigenous people look good. And then that communication was just lost. So we're just at such a critical point where people are building enough trust to speak their truth tell their story and obviously i'm indigenous and there's a bit of trust involved when i ask but this goes for old platforms and every broadcaster out there they're really we're really like for lack of it we're coming out of the woods and we're we're ready to tell our story for the most of us uh and that's you know if i could just be i'm trying not we can get emotional

sorry um if i could just be one little needle in the haystack of what reconciliation is for this country then uh you know hopefully i mean that'll make me happy and hopefully it makes you know the listeners and the viewers happy and hopefully it makes the person who i'm interviewing feel feel like they're doing the same thing too that's incredibly beautiful what can we expect in the next in the next year in the next couple of weeks. What can listeners expect to tune into? Yeah, well, there's a lot going on as of recently the podcast last year won most outstanding indigenous podcast of the year from the Canadian Podcasts Award. So that was the biggest thing and that's given us, you know, more people are listening, tuning in because of that and that's fantastic. So that is the most

recent thing that's, I guess, came up. And then, you know, right now I'm looking to finish my journalism program and be full-time Victoria. So viewers can expect, for people that watch the show, will expect me in studio a lot more, which I find I get sometimes really, really good conversations out of people when it's in person, obviously, as opposed to Zoom. Nothing wrong with Zoom. I do it all the time, too, but there is that, there's that feeling of in person that's really unique.

So people can expect that. The episodes from Lower Post, so going up to the Yukon, people should be expecting that, you know, later in the year. What topics are covered? Sorry? What topics are covered for those? Well, I go up to Lower Post, and I spend a lot of time with the community and deputy chief Harlan Schilling, and this community is having a multiplex rebuilt, because up until

very recently, this community was doing all of their functions out of the old residential school building. So you can imagine elders and workers having to go in and get their mail or go to the gym or work out of a residential school building that hurt these people. So eventually the building got torn down and the federal government, provincial government have put a lot of money into this to rebuild this for the community. So I went up there and investigate, talk to the people in the community, check out the buildings process.

We went on a bison hunt and got a bison. We went to the hot springs and went to the traditional hot things where the catasca people used to go even now ago. and I played hockey on ice for the first time in 15 years and played with a whole bunch of indigenous people on the ice. So, like, there's so much going on. I'm probably missing, like, half the stuff we did. But those were the big things that we did.

And so I'm going to be turning that into more of a documentary style and then split it up for TV for episodes. But I'm hoping to get this in more of a documentary format and really make it something special. That's beautiful. How can people connect with you? Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Yeah, so the best way, there's a bunch of ways to watch and listen. Obviously, listen, just like your podcast, you can get a web. You download your podcast, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. People can watch it on the Check Plus app as well, too. It's kind of like a Netflix app, but for Check, you can download it on most of your smart devices and watch it there. So there's lots of ways to do that. And to follow me, the best way is I'm pretty active on Instagram is kind of my favorite platform. So that's at Chattis underscore Leo, so T-C-H-A-D-A-S- underscore Leo, and that's where I post most of our stuff.

And we also have a pretty good following on Facebook if you type our Native Land podcast. Brilliant. I have been a follower for some time now. I really appreciate your ability to communicate with people. I definitely agree that in-person is much better, more conducive to a real conversation. But Zoom allows us to connect when we're not nearby. It allows the opportunity to hear from new people. It's such a pleasure to connect with you and get your insights on how you think about some of these maybe more unique issues to individuals like ourselves, but incredibly valuable for me to think about issues differently.

I find individuals like yourself really inspirational because you're involved in so much and you're eager for new opportunities and to try new things. And I'm just incredibly grateful to look out and see individuals like yourself doing the great work you're doing. So I appreciate all of your time and your willingness to hop on and have a conversation today. Hey, Aaron. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you for being a fan of the show. And I'm excited to dive into your episodes and learn about all the amazing people that you've been interviewing as well, too. So thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. No problem. Hopefully you enjoy the rest of your day. And I really, again, just appreciate your time. Thank you.