NZXT PODCAST - #088 - Gina Jackson OBE

Episode Date: May 15, 2021

This week on the podcast, we are joined by Gina Jackson OBE from Safe In Our World Gina and the crew discuss mental health, meeting the queen, and finding meaning. Follow Gina on twitter: https://twitter.com/pompeygina Listen live to the NZXT 💜 CLUB CAST on our Discord server at discord.gg/nzxt every Thursday at 10AM PT and submit your questions to [e-mail]! Thanks to Gilless#9740 for the artwork!

I feel like going to time that intro better to like the drop of the song. But it's okay. It's fine. I don't think it really matters. Hello everybody and welcome to episode 88 of the NXT Clubcast, the official podcast of the NZ60 community. My name is, no, it's not. This podcast is recorded live every Thursday at 10 am. Pacific Standard Time

of the official N60 Discord server. It is available to stream on demand on Apple Podcast, Google Podcast, Spotify, and SoundCloud. So if there is a bustle in your head, Joe, Don't be alarmed. It's just the NZXT Clubcast. My name is Dennis. With me as always is Ivan. 88 episodes in and 88 messed up intros. I like it. You know it is. It's because I was I was doing the intro and I'm like, I got this off top of my head, right? And I have it pulled up here, but I was looking at the recording software and I'm like, did I hit the record button, right? Did I do that? There's a lot of steps, man.

Did my brain get the better of me? And did I just forget to do something? And no, because I always had it running. So we have a lot of pre-roll, which I want to start saving like we were supposed to back in the past. One day we'll get it right. One day, yeah, one day, right? I'm still putting my money on episode 100. That'll be the day where there's like no issue with anything.

That might be the one where we do the worst. You just screw everything up, you know? It's like the worst. I wouldn't put it past you. I wouldn't either. Today's special guest, a very special guest, is Gina Jackson from Save. Safe in Our World, I want to write Save, Safe in Our World, a charity centered around mental health in the gaming space.

How are you doing, Gina? I'm very well. Thank you very much for having me. We're really excited to have you. So, Safe in Our World, Mental Health Month. So just to reel it back real quick, if you guys don't know, we are celebrating or we are doing a, Mental Health Awareness Month, extravaganza, all over NZT, whether it's through our Discord, our podcasts, our Twitter, our Facebook, our anywhere you see us, we'll probably be talking about it,

probably be posting about it, and we'll have stuff to go along with it. So keep your eyes, peel to do a lot of stuff here. Gina, can you give us a quick overview of safe in the world, what you guys do, what your mission is, and why it's so amazing? So our mission is just simply to demystify mental health or destigmatize it and to encourage people to talk about it more. And we look at two things. We look at games development and publishing as an industry and how we can change the way people think and talk and create really safe and productive environments. And the other one is to work with gamers and to say actually games is a great vehicle to talk about mental health. So let's be at the heart of that and start those conversations and create the structure in which people can talk.

Nice. How do you, do you find it difficult to kind of broach the subject with a lot of people, especially in gaming when it comes to mental health? Honestly, no, not compared to other sectors. So I think millennials in particular are much more comfortable to talk about their mental health. I think we've got greater challenges with older people, which I'm going to say one being over 50. Getting us to talk about our mental health and getting us to introduce stuff within the workplace around mental health. I think those are harder things. I think starting the conversation, getting people to feel comfortable about talking about their mental health in the same way they would about their physical health,

but also then to take it from a conversation to action. What can you what can you do to create better well-being? whether that's going to therapy, whether that's creating different networks, what can you actually do rather than starting the conversation? So there's lots of things we're trying to do. Sorry, going to go ahead. Real quick, I just want to mention something real quick that I recently was thinking about and no pun intended. It literally blew my mind because it's what Gina just said right now, like I literally came to the realization that, yeah, Yes, it's like super normal to, you know, to say something about your physical health, right?

Like, oh, my back hurts or, oh, you know, I think I need to go to the doctor because, you know, I have a weird feeling in my left thigh or whatever it is, you know, like your physical well-being is all. It's like super normal and accepted to talk about it. But that is not true at all with your mental health, you know. Like if you tell someone like, hey, I'm not feeling well, like mentally, I'm not all there or something, like, they're still like, well, first of all, people don't like talk about it, it seems like, but there's also still like a stigma attached to it where like if you, if you say that, then there's, you know, some people think, oh, there's something wrong with you. But in reality, no, it's we, the same way we all have physical health, we all have mental health. And it should be fine to be, you know, open about it and to say whether you're feeling good or bad, right? And that's not the case. It's even more than that. So the stigma is not if you talk about your mental health or you're not having a great day, then you're weak.

It goes that far. And you wouldn't say that about someone's physical health. So I think we've got an awful lot of work to do to roll things back. And I think you're absolutely right to talk about physical health and mental health, you know, with parity. Yeah. You wouldn't say, you know, you've got cancer because you're weak. it would seem like a really odd thing to do, but people would say that about someone

who had a mental health diagnosis. Yeah, and, you know, like, a body is more than just, you know, the body, basically. There's like this whole, this whole brain behind it that's controlling everything in it. So you're totally right. Like, it's very stigmatized and it's really, there's no reason for it to be that way, right?

I think it's actually really empowering to be able to talk about your mental health. And actually that sense of well-being that you can get from friends, from colleagues, from online communities, when you're able to talk about your mental health and take the power of that. And that's the kind of stuff that we want to inspire people to be able to do. That's great. Yeah, that's something that I've been kind of trying to deal a little bit more of as well as kind of being more open with my own mental health and things that like I'm struggling with, especially here in the podcast, right? Like I've talked, I think for the past maybe like six, seven, eight episodes about how I'm

going through the process of getting diagnosed with ADHD, right? And there's definitely like a toll that goes along with that. And I think like, you know, if those who have a platform talk about it in a more just like, you know, matter-fact ways, like it's just a thing that's there. It kind of also allows other people to feel like it's not so bad, you know, as opposed to I'm dealing with some stuff and then you just kind of quickly slide it away, you know, there's no reason why you can't just be open. Hey, you know, I'm going through some stuff.

I'm working towards getting help with it. Everyone should too, right? Yeah, we had an amazing young woman who was on a games design degree course at university. And she came to us and she says, I have a mental health diagnosis. I don't know whether to talk about it when I go to a job interview. And we said, you know, it's totally up to you. We don't think we can advise you on how to deal with that. And we saw her another panel we did about.

four weeks later and she said I've decided to when I go for a job interview to talk about my mental health because it's part of who I am and if I'm going for a job particularly a job in games I want to bring the whole of me so I'm going to talk about my schizophrenia diagnosis and and I make games about how I feel and I release those on it's you and it's part of my process and she spoke about that with zero shame. And the way she was able to speak, everybody found it inspiring. And our charity is about creating moments like that

and supporting people like her. She was remarkable and she will be massively successful in the games industry because she'll be able to be herself and bring everything to the games that she makes. That's awesome. That's really, really great. Yeah, I feel like it's always weird because I remember applying for jobs before I landed here.

And there's always like those like few questions where they ask you, you know, like, do you have any mental health, you know, things that like we should be aware of? And like I always felt weird at answering that question because I like, I didn't want to like out myself, right? Or like, or like people know, yeah, you know, like I've got this, this, this, and this, you know, like it's, it's definitely got to be tough, you know, for people who like are still don't feel like that they're comfortable talking.

about it. One of the things that we do at the charity is we have a level up program. So companies can sign up and they commit to looking after the well-being of their staff and they do various things. But we're now seeing that come out in job advert because more and more companies are realizing that if they want the best staff and the most talented staff, they have to demonstrate to people to encourage them to come in that they are, um, accepting, supportive, understanding, give people the space that they need to be who they are. And that for me is a brilliant thing.

And as more millennials come into the workplace, I think 75% of the workforce is going to be made up of millennials in four years time, who are much happy to talk about their mental health. We will see a shift. That's definitely great. I think especially the same way we treat like vacation days. and like, you know, we have snacks in the break room. I feel like jobs really should start advertising a little bit more

like what they do to offer support for their employees. Like I know here at NXT, we were in a town hall and there was a, like a, there's always a question, there's always a segment in that town hall where we asked the entire company, right? Do you have any questions for the CEO, HR, so and so forth, and someone brought up the questions like, hey, you know, like, what do we have in terms of mental health resources? And I feel like no one's really ever asked that before. And immediately, I think within like 15, 20 minutes, there was a company-wide email. By the way, guys, we offered this, this, and this.

If you need help, please reach out. And it's like, okay, cool. You know, I'm glad that we do that. But it's surprising that people don't even ask if that's a service that's, that's, like, offered from whoever you're working with. And I'm glad that we have it, right? I'm glad that we're being more mindful of that. I feel like especially now this year, you know, that we're kind of being better about

tying in our, you know, our, you know, whatever month it is, we're not just doing it outwardly, but also looking inside and saying, okay, what is NST doing from a mental health perspective, from a pride perspective, from a whatever perspective, right? And I think it, and that, that informs everything that we do. And I feel like it's really important that, you know, if you are looking at jobs, that maybe that is a question that you ask, right? Because if like the more, the more people start to ask those questions, right, the more those recruiters, those, those, those, uh, there's a HR employee start going, hey, people are really asking about this. Maybe we should look into what we're doing and what we can do better because maybe we're

losing really good prospects from these things or, you know, because we either have them or we don't have enough. And that stuff's great to hear. It's great to see people just not talking about doing stuff, really doing stuff. And it helps the staff well-being. And I think it gives people a real sense of pride to work for a company who's willing to do staff and talk about things and change the status quo. We're actually doing something today that I never thought of a million years.

Oh, yeah. We're going to have a guided meditation session right before our town hall today. That's awesome. We've just put some stuff out on our website about there's a Minecraft server that does guided, Reiki and is a whole server about well-being. So there's so much stuff going on that people can get involved in all sorts of different areas. I love that.

I'll have to follow up and tell me how it went. No, we will. I'm going to stream it on the podcast so that everybody can, I'm kidding. So everybody can join along and help relax a little bit. So, Gina, I want to talk about you a little bit. Because I, when, when Andy was like, hey, we have someone coming onto the podcast. They're from, uh, safe in our world. And, you know, here's their, here's like their like little, the little blur.

I'm like, oh my God. Like this person, Gina has done so, so much. So just kind of a quick, a quick few notes here. And I kind of one is going to go into this. So he started in 1992, which, which like, I remember in 1992. I, what was they doing? I was like, I was like, oh, don't, don't go here. This is, this is going to be painful.

No, it's great. I was, I think it was like three or four or something, right? You worked on systems such as like the S&S, the Mega Drive, Game Boy, up to the PS5 and Xbox series X&S. So, I mean, you've done like pretty much like the whole gamut, right? Yep. You've worked with Nokia when they were still doing mobile games. Idas, when they had Tomb Raider and Hitman. I mean, it's just so, so much. I'm just going through this.

It's a lot. But so how how do you feel like the industry has changed from when he started to now, at least from a mental health perspective? I know, big question. Yeah, it's like, how do we start? I think in situations it's got a lot better. I mean, I had jobs where I slept under my desk and I was put under ridiculous pressure. And I would say that never happens now. Oh, but it does.

So I think things have changed hugely, but some things have changed not at all. We're still an industry of passion. And that's why I love it, because people are doing the job of their dreams. But on the back of that, because people are doing the job of their dreams, they're often pushed into situations or push themselves into situations where they're working really long hours, have an unhealthy environment. often the environment's become very bullying and very toxic. But as we're demonstrating here, people are talking about it more and more, and more companies are taking a real clear stance. I think the next step is whether consumers will also take a stance

on the working environments of people who make great games and whether that will change their buying power. So you talked about like committing to being better in terms of game development. I feel like I'm still hearing a lot of stories about like crunch, right? And I'm curious what your take on that is and if you think that could ever really be fixed. Absolutely be fixed. There is really no reason to crunch. There are lots of companies out there who have a no crunch policy.

for me the biggest problem is to sort out crunch that people are putting on themselves because they feel often suffering from imposter syndrome, often feeling they have to go the extra mile to justify their position. But for a company to put pressure on people to work really long hours and be very unhealthy is all about bad planning. and if you don't have the staff you can step back and replan what your game is doing or how it's evolving then that's not a healthy environment don't listen to her Dennis get back to work it's funny you say that because like literally the first thing I told Dennis when he was hired here was social media doesn't sleep and neither do you you better be on Twitter like 24-7 and all this And like I said it half jokingly, you know, but it's true. Like I think there's a lot of like expectations from a lot of jobs, you know, not just in the gaming industry, but just jobs in general where it's like you have to be on call.

You have to, you know, answer your email within, you know, a day. You have to, if the boss texts you on Saturday, you better be there. And it shouldn't be like that. There definitely has to be a much better, like emphasis on. work life because work isn't everything you know the same way like nothing is everything and I think me personally like you know making sure that I unplug from work and focus on you know other stuff is definitely helping me you know be more more sane especially during the pandemic because the pandemic you know was contributing a lot I think to not just me but I

I think a lot of people, like this whole work-life balance, unbalance, you can say, where a lot of people, I think, might feel like they're always working now because they're always, you know, at home and home is work now. And it shouldn't be like that, you know, there has to be some sort of separation, right? But I also think it makes you less productive and it makes you less happy. So I think it actually doesn't work for the employer either. we've we're just coming to starting a pilot on community manager mental health training because it's the the role that we see in the most trouble as you talked about not switching off but also about people in communities talking about their own mental health and I think lots of community managers don't feel equipped to have those conversations and are terrified of saying the wrong thing and genuinely want to get involved in those conversations. But also, again, we often hear that community managers are serving their community.

And that serving sort of requires them to be online 24 hours a day and always there and never allowed to take any holiday or vacation time, never have any downtime. But then also, you make them the messenger for the community back to the dev team and the dev team to the community. So they get it from every single angle. And I think we really need to protect community managers and work really hard to support them and give them the tools they need to do the best job they can. It's awesome that you say that because I actually used to work as a community manager before here. And you're absolutely right. You're literally like the punching bag, right, for both the developer or the publisher and the community.

You literally do get it from both ways. It's either, you know, the community is angry at one thing or another. because there was a change meeting of the game or something got delayed or whatever the reason is. And then you got the developers and the publishers who were like, hey, why are people so mad? It's like, well, because this is happening. Well, why aren't you communicating it better? Because you did something bad and people don't like it. Like, you know, I can't help it.

I'm literally just the messenger. Why are you shooting me? Right? And it's like something that we dealt with here before we started our own mental health channel in the Discord. So by the way, guys, if you're not part of Discord, check it out. Discord.org.org. We do have a mental health channel. And one of the things that we were really worried about is like having a space where people can accidentally get hurt, right?

Either through like bad advice or someone who's like airing out a little bit too much of their stuff, right? Because there's there's like a space to talk about like really, really personal things among close friends. And then there's like talking about things among like a much wider community with like hundreds of thousands of people where you maybe don't want to say too much because you don't know who's also listening. right so the way that we kind of handled it and and maybe you know if you want to offer you know a little bit of like advice or just give us like your your thoughts on it we kind of position the channel is more of a positive affirmations place right for people to kind of talk about their successes talk about their like small victories and it's kind of like let everyone know hey you know I'm not doing so great today but I know today's going to be better and you know we're always keeping an eye on it we're posting you know

inspirational quotes and kind of letting people know that you know everything's okay we're fine you know come come here this is a safe space to kind of just enjoy enjoy yourself and relax. So I would totally agree. I just want to go back to one thing you said about or the community management thing. The other thing is community managers are very isolated from each other.

That's true. Ironically, communities managers who manage a community don't really have their own community where they can feed back on best practice and stuff. And that was what I was talking about, about supporting them. On the discord and people openly talking

about the mental health, I think it's really challenging. I'm not a clinician and safe in our world isn't run by clinicians. Neither are we. But it's how we all make that division between creating spaces where people can talk and feel supported versus offering professional advice. And sort of following a lot of the guidelines with mental health first aiding is about offering that support, listening without judging people. which is much harder than I think people think. And then allowing people to set up,

one, showing them where they can get professional support, but also encouraging them to create their own support networks. And again, I think, and it's something that we've found recently, is it's also very easy within an online community for people to become dependent on other individuals and make sure all of us are sharing that burden because you don't want to burden your mental health on other people and impact how they feel.

And I think all of that is really challenging to do that well. And as I speak, I am terrified of the stuff that I say because I don't want to get things wrong either. And I think part of this is getting over that and being able to talk honestly about the challenges of the mental health space without worrying about getting everything wrong. Does that make sense? 100% makes sense. I think that's probably the biggest challenge, right?

Is there is there is a moment in time where we didn't allow a lot of stuff on the server because we were just afraid of doing the wrong thing and not handling your property. So we didn't even do it at all. And then we realized this is probably doing more harm than good because now we're not allowing people to kind of be themselves, right? for example we didn't allow any talk of like you know sexuality on the server

not because we didn't feel like it wasn't important but because we didn't know if we could handle it properly if the community can handle it property until someone spoke up and said hey like this is this is kind of dumb like hey this is dumb you know it doesn't make any sense how can you say that we're being open

and we're being you know inclusive if we're not even allowing people to talk you know just to say that you're gay and we're like you're right so can you help us you know, figure this out better. And I think that, you know, going back to what you were saying earlier, if there is a place where we can kind of like, you know, get some of this support from other community managers

who maybe have kind of figured this out a little bit better, we might have been able to do this a lot earlier and maybe had a better plan going forward as opposed to you, it got to the point where someone was upset that we just weren't doing a good job at it. Yeah. So I would say, what's your space and we'll be in contact because that's definitely on our radar to do this year,

not only creating the space, but publishing the best practice. Yeah, so we, sorry. I was just going to say we had over 200 community managers to apply for our course. That's awesome. Within 24 hours from 24 different countries. There is absolutely a need. Where is this community going to live for these community managers, if you're able to say? It's most likely to be on Discord on their own server that we,

will support with activity, but also with events that we can then bring together community managers to be able to create best practice. So some of the stuff that I've done in my past is about creating education qualifications from people in the industry to write that for academia, not the other way around. So that extraction of information to create qualifications and training is in my background. So I want to be able to bring that to this forum and be able to do that globally to support, you know, the stuff that you guys are doing, the stuff that, you know, other community managers are doing, whether it's a community of streamers, a community of gamers, a community of game devs. There are so many really powerful and supportive communities. We just need to get

a little bit better at supporting the people who manage them. That is amazing. I, a love that. It's such a great idea. I'm surprised that no one's done it before. Yeah, I think people who work in the community space definitely need that support. What I like about that idea is that it's actually like Gina was saying,

the community managers don't always have a community on their own. Which is funny when you think about it. It's true, right? Because like for example, I very rarely post on my own social media accounts or like monitor my friends and families, social media accounts and things like that. And it's not because I don't want to. It's literally because I'm looking at NZXT social media accounts.

And the last thing I want to do after, you know, checking our Twitter mentions or our Instagram DMs or whatever is like, now I'm going to fire up my own Facebook and let the world know how I'm feeling, you know, because it's just, it's draining to just constantly be on, social. So I think it's cool that now there's, you know, a community for the community managers. It's ironic that they don't have their own space, right? But it's kind of true. Yeah, that's weird when to think about it. Like, wait a minute, you're right. They don't have their own space. Like, what the heck? Like, you're in community and don't participate in a community

yourself. Like, how the heck can you? What are you going to do? So, Gina, one thing that I noticed is, is you have this like title, I guess you can call it title on your name. And me and Ivan were Googling it trying to figure out because we've never heard it before. It is so your name on Twitter is Gina Jackson, OBE. Can you please explain to what the OBE stands for? Because if I say it wrong, I feel like I'm going to feel like a dummy. No, and it's, so it's fundamentally a medal from the queen to one of my services to the

to the video games industry, particularly in education and diversity. The irony is that it would make me an officer of the British Empire, which of course linked with the word diversity does throw up a whole bunch of kind of oxymorons. They are talking about changing that, but yeah, it's basically a medal from the Queen. Have you ever met the Queen? Not yet So I was I was awarded this last year

During lockdown But I do at some point need to go to the palace To pick it up from someone That is that is crazy You're walking hey I have a medal here I don't you guys know me I think I'm on a list somewhere So I was to meet the queen

Well I have I have been lucky enough to go to one of her Garden parties she hosts summer garden parties with tea and cake in the gardens of Buckingham Palace. When I saw your title asked Dennis, what do you think this is? And Dennis said, I don't know, man, I think she's a knight or something. But I think the importance of that from our point of view is that there are people in the games industry in the UK who are being recognized by government for the work that they're doing. I mean, I know it's from the Queen, but really it's from the government.

But the fact that we can work closely with politicians to change things and to support our skills development or to change the way we do tax around games development, those things are really key. And as our industry matures, those things become more important. But on the flip side of that, how games are perceived in the media is still really challenging. When I talk to people who don't work in games about the charity, they automatically assume that our charity has been set out for people who play games too much. Not that we're a vehicle to talk about mental health. Games are still seen so massively as a negative thing. And that, I mean, some of it comes down to easy journalism,

that it's easy to create those sensational stories. And it's, you know, a little bit more dull to talk about the power of a supportive community and the way that it's changed people's lives. But that is the reality of it. And that's a real struggle for all of us. And I haven't yet found a conclusion to it. But we don't get treated in the same way as the film and TV industries get treated. We're not seen as a cultural space.

game makers or gamers. I think gamers are treated in the same way too. Which is insane when you think about it because I mean the video game industry is huge and I think it's like at this point it's probably probably clips like the film and music industry now just with the amount of money is generally. Oh massively. Yeah. And did a long time ago. Yeah. Evan did you have something say? Yeah, I was like on the subject of, you know, how we treat people there and traditions. There's one tradition and that, uh, that involves the queen that I want to get your,

you know, this whole thing about like. Okay, but I haven't got my medal yet. So yeah, like, I got careful about what I say. Yeah, I want to be careful too, because I don't want to offend, you know, anyone here. But it's just a question as an outsider, like someone who lives in the United States, right? Like, I see people, you know, bowing or curtseying, however you want to call it. Oh, here we go.

To the king, to the queen, to the prince, to the princes, etc. And I know it's a tradition. I know it's like what you do when you meet the queen or whatever. But in my mind, I try to put myself in that position. I'm like, could I possibly just bow to another human being? Like, it's, I don't know. I don't know if I could do that. Because like I think like, okay, the president of United States of America,

like if I met the president, I feel like I would shake his hand. And like if someone told me, oh, you have to bow down to this guy and like show your respect or something. I don't know. I don't know how I would I would take that to be honest. It'd be a little a little weird for me to do, I think. I don't know. What do you what do you think it's a weird thing for anyone to do? I don't I have I haven't met the Queen or any any member of the royal family. You should not not bow and then tell us how that goes. But but it's interesting with social pressure I think would that that that requirement to fit in and do what everyone else does is so powerful. Well, yeah, I mean, if everyone's bowing and you're the one that's like, oh, I'm not going to bow, then you're automatically the one who's like in the wrong, you know. So I might try and be a little controversial.

Would you ever not stand for the national anthem? Would I ever not stand? If I'm lazy, I don't, to be honest. If I'm like at a baseball game and he's like, I have a hot dog. one hand and have a view and another. I'm like, listen, I'm not getting up for this. I love it. You've taken the pragmatic approach. Yeah, it's like this thing, this is beer was 13 bucks. It's like 12 ounces. I ain't getting up. Yeah, I mean, like, I, the only opportunity I ever get to stand for the national anthem is when I go to baseball games. And I always stand. I even

like take off my hat, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I would ever not stand to. to be honest. I guess if I had a, you know, a reason not to, I guess I wouldn't. But I always do. You know, and I guess it's part of tradition, too. Like, if I'm at a baseball game and everyone's standing and I'm the only person who's, like, sitting down eating my hot dog, I would probably think, like, oh, man, I'm being the bad guy here because I'm not standing.

I feel like a god when I do that. I'm like, I look at you all standing up. But I would say, though, when it comes, like, meeting somebody like the queen, right, I feel like there's almost like a bit of ceremony that goes with it, right? It's like part of that ceremony is doing like the bowing or the whatever it is that you do. And I feel like if you don't do that, you kind of miss out on part of like that ceremony, you know. Yeah, I guess. It's just a weird thing for me.

I don't know. I've never bowed to another human being. It's like I'm looking at a person who if I go to Disneyland and I see like Darth Vader, right? I'm not going to be like, yo, what's up? Darth Vader. No, you know, and be like, hey, you okay. You know, this, you know, this is the Sith, right? He's doing his thing, right? I'm going to sit back. And I'm going to give him the respect, right? Because it's like part of like playing into it and like having fun with it. And just like understanding that, you know, we all do it. It's, it's, well, I don't know if you

all do it, but I do it. But there's like that ceremony or like the almost bit of like theatricality that goes with it. And you kind of become part of that. Right. It's like, oh, you know, I did this at one point, you know, I met the queen and I bow. Right. I did, I did the thing that everyone does. I'm like in a little part of this history. I'm now, you know, I'm, I've done the thing, essentially, if that makes sense. It doesn't, but I'll accept your answer. I did have a question, actually, because we were talking about gaming and mental health and how people just kind of automatically assume that any charity is about people who play games too much. I want to jump a little bit to a community question real quick.

from wire fleece. Is gaming a healthy form of mental decompression after a stressful day? What is a healthy habit to keep your mental health in check? So I think it can be. And actually we're working with another mental health charity to see if we can measure that as part of a research program and see if we can actually identify the mechanics which support well-being, to see if we can then proliferate that back out into devs. So particularly as we come out of COVID,

we think the idea of being able to create mechanics that feed on well-being will be really powerful. So absolutely agree with that. I think it's interesting that that question would be asked of games where it wouldn't necessarily be asked of other consumption, whether that's TV and film or whether that's gambling or other entertainment forms. Obviously, gambling or drinking or there are other things that have an addiction about them.

So I think it's about moderating and particularly monitoring your moods. And there are some great websites that enable you to monitor your mood and see whether that is impacted by the amount that you play or the activity that you do. I mean, it's really clear the more physical activity you do, the better that is for your mental health. So again, it's learning your body, your moods, your patterns, and really what works for you rather than being prescribed by somebody else on what would be best for everyone. Yeah, that's what I see it. Like for myself, and this thing, they're like I've told Ivan that because I do work social media and like I'm always kind of quote connected and I'm always, paying attention to stuff. I'm always looking at things.

I'm always taking whatever feedback that's coming back and forth, right? That when I, when I, like, do my gaming sessions, I do them in a manner where, like, I just, I turn my brain off and I don't think about anything other than what I'm doing in this game. And the reason why is because there's so much I happen to focus on during the day, just having one singular focus is actually really therapeutic for me, right? I'm not thinking about, you know, what's going on in the mentions,

is our tweet doing good, doing a fill up this document. Are you saying that multitasking is a myth, dennis? Are you admitting it finally? I'm saying that multitasking is very exhausting. Yes. From a mental standpoint. And that when I have a chance to not multitask,

I will gladly take it and ignore all Slack messages from you. Yeah. But that's actually, who asked that question about the gaming? That was a really good question because I recently was conflicted with that as well because this whole year, you know, my whole New Year's resolution was like, I'm going to take care of my mind, body, and soul. I'm going to start exercising, eat better, and all this. And one of the things I wanted to do was definitely, like, waste less time.

And, I mean, I'm not saying video games are a waste of time, but I think they can be, just like anything else, depending on how you, you know, use it or abuse it in some instances. And I read this book that I want to recommend here. It's called Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. And it talks a lot about how, you know, just the way the world is now, it's like it's unavoidable to, you know, use this technology, whether it's, you know, a computer or Twitter or Discord or whatever. And his whole thing is like, you know you have to use it. So now the question is like, how can you use this? So it just doesn't destroy your life.

And a lot of the book really recommends, you know, it's like what he calls, I think he calls, I think he calls it like structured structured leisure right so like it's literally recommending what Dennis just said where if you're going to play video games just say okay I'm going to play video games for an hour and I'm not going to do anything else I'm just going to focus on this and accept it and once this hour is over I'm going to move on to the next thing whether it's you know reading a book or going back to work or whatever and I found it really helpful because I I definitely don't I'm a gamer you know I don't want to cut video games out of my life but at the same time

I don't want it to control my life, you know, and I do find it very relaxing at times when, you know, I have a long day at work and I just want to play some video games, don't wine. But I've also definitely been in that camp where I've let video games control my life. You know, I have thousands of hours in CSGO, and I've spent even more money on skins probably. Probably should be ashamed to admit that. But yeah, like I definitely have had moments in my life where, you know, video games controlled my life. And that is probably not the best way to live your life, to be honest. Even though I want people to play video games because we sell computers, you know, it's definitely, there's the balance, you know. And I think it's, I think Gina said it best where she said, it's up to the individual to determine what that balance is for them

because it's not going to be the same for me as it is for Dennis, as it is for whoever asks this question. So it's a really good question. I like that question a lot. Thank you, why your fleece. Yeah, I would say, I would say for me, I, I have recently, and like, but recently I'm in the past, like, a year and a half or so, have kind of finally realized for myself that I don't need to make every single hour of my day productive, right?

There's just, like, especially in the U.S., there's this big, like, grind culture, right? Yo, you, man, I'm on my grind, making that bread, get that paper, we're getting paid today, right? Got a flex with Instagram or something. And, like, at a certain point, I realized, what the heck am I doing? all these things for, like being productive doesn't make me happy, right? Like, like, in the sense of like every hour of my day has to be dedicated to doing something that, you know, that's working towards something. Sometimes it's okay to just do nothing, right? Doing nothing is also doing a thing

and that should totally be seen as okay. And I feel like this here in the U.S., it's very, very, like, not looked down upon, but like not as like highly regarded as like, you know, I'm out here making that paper, you know, I got 50 side hustles stacking, stacking bricks. you know, so and so forth. But it's interesting your measure is your productivity, not necessarily your happiness or your contentment. Oh. It's how do we shift those measures?

No, for sure. That's actually a great segue into another community question that is, what is the definition of happy? What do you guys think? Do you got like five hours? I actually have a definition, but I wonder to know what you guys think

before I tell your mind. I would say my definition of happy would be kind of like another word that we probably have to define as being content, right? But I saw a TikTok and it isn't it done,

but I saw a TikTok the day where someone was saying that I don't strive to be happy, I strive to be okay and content because in their definition, right, being sad is one extreme and being happy is another extreme, right? And you can't be happy all the time and you can't be sad all the time, right? So you should strive for something in the middle where you're just okay and you're fine and you're there and you're not like, you know, on any extreme. And that you're going to have times that are happy, right, where you're just really elated in times where you're sad and you're not feeling that great.

But as long as you can be somewhere in that middle ground, you'll be okay. And I feel like that's kind of where for me, I find where I'm the most happy is when I'm just okay with how things are going right. I'm not pushing for anything crazy. I'm not, you know, looking for the next big thing. I'm just here. I'm doing my thing. And like nothing's really bothering me one way or the other. Which I feel like it's a very personal view on it, right?

But I think that's kind of how it is, right? Like if you're, you know, being happy is a very personal, you know, individual thing. Not everyone's happy to do the same stuff that I am. am. But then is it about finding a place where you can actually be you in the sense that you're the authentic you? So finding an environment where you can you can display all those things. So I am the worst singer in the world. I mean utterly dreadful. My mother sent me to singing lessons as a small child because she was embarrassed to hear me sing in public. And after six classes, is the woman said, look, you're just wasting your money. This woman will never see this girl.

But I have a toddler and a husband and I sing my heart out in front of them because I know that they love me for who I am and what I am. And that to me is contentment and happiness. Because I don't feel judged. I'm not pretending to be someone I'm not. I don't feel stressed. I can just rejoice in being being me, not trying to be anyone else, not trying to be influenced by other people. And I think that would be my definition of happy. You're both wrong. Those are good answers. I think my answer is honestly the same. I think we're all pretty much in agreement, but just saying things differently. Like for me, the word is not contentment or content how you guys were saying. For me, the word is meaning. So for me, I try to find meaning in everything I do.

And when I find meaning in something, it always makes me happy. And I can find meaning in anything. Like, you know, I always try, like if, for example, if my wife tells me like, hey, can you, you know, take out the trash cans, right? I hate take out the trash cans because I have six trash cans. And it takes me like, yeah, I have six trash cans. And it takes me forever to like, not forever, but you know, it's like a 15 minute ordeal where I got to open the gate, got to walk back and forth. Sometimes the trash cans are heavy and things like that. But I always think, well, I'm going to find meaning in this.

And the meaning is, well, if I take out the trash cans, that means my yard's going to be clean, which means my daughter gets to play in the yard and not worry about stepping in trash. And my wife's going to be happier because, you know, I took out the trash. trash and things like that. And it sounds so, so I guess, like, dumb and simple. But for me, it's like a little life hack, you know, and I try to do that in everything. Like even like a podcast where, you know, I don't always want to wake up and like start talking for an hour on a podcast. I never do.

Yeah, I never do. But then I think like, okay, well, you know, we're going to have the community listening and we're going to have a special guest on and we're going to talk about something interesting. So this might help someone. I try to find meeting in it. And then all of a sudden, I get happy and I get motivated and I want to do it. So I think it's pretty much what you guys were saying.

I just call it meaning instead of content. That was really beautiful. Oh, thank you. That's, uh, I think it's the best way I've ever heard of anyone talk about taking out the trash before. Yeah. Because I hated you because like, I have an apartment and I had to go like 50 feet to go to the trash shoot and then dump that thing and then walk back.

Yeah. Not try to find meaning in that though, you know. You're going to have a clean house by doing that. And I swear like once you find meaning in things, like you start becoming happy. Because I do think like if you're always constantly trying to find happiness, you're probably never going to ever achieve it. And I think the same is true with money. Like if you're constantly trying to get more money, you're never going to have enough. You know, but the second that you stop caring about money, It's like that's when you realize, well, I don't have to spend money or I don't have to make more money. Like, I'm fine. I have enough money. Like, I don't need to make more money. And I think the same things with happiness. It's like if you're constantly chasing it, you're never going to have enough of it. But if you find that meaning and whatever it is you're doing, you know, whether you're a garbage man or, you know, the queen, I'm sure you might be a little happier, at least in my experience.

But I haven't have bills to pay. Yeah. Well, I mean, obviously, we all have. have like this threshold of money where we need money to survive. I mean more like that, you know, like you were saying like this mentality of like, you got to be grinding, got to have a side hustle. Yeah, for sure. You like constantly being productive and all this.

And it's not true. Like, you know, like I, like I'm definitely not rich, but I'm also not broke because like I, I try not to think about money like honestly. Like I try not to think about money because I know when I'm thinking about money, that's when I want to like upgrade my car. that's when I want to buy any TV. That's when I want to like spend it because I'm constantly thinking, I got to make more money.

And why do I got to make more money? Because I want to spend more money. And the same is literally true with happiness. It's like chasing that feeling of like, I want to feel happy. I want to be happy. I want more, more, more, more, more and more and more. And just no one never stopped to think like, well,

what's the point of this? Is it going to give me meaning? And if it does, it will make you happy. You know, like more money, if more money gives you meaning, if, you know, whatever, like, it probably will make you happy, but it's not necessarily like a cause and effect type of thing. But once again, I'm not a, I'm not like any sort of expert on this. I'm just talking from my own personal experience. I'm not a lawyer. I think it's really interesting that your happiness, you're saying happiness comes from inside and by not

looking or judging ourselves against others or external forces that makes us happier. Yeah, I think like for me it's been finding that meaning in things, but in the second part has honestly also been accepting the fact that I'm not always going to be happy. You know, I'm not always going to be doing things that give me like an immediate dopamine rush of happiness. You know, sometimes I have to, you know, basically go through hell to get to heaven for, you know, to throw an analogy out there. Like, you kind of have to do the hard stuff sometimes in order to get to that happiness spot. It's balanced, right? It's balance.

Yeah, I think it's balanced. And it's also like Gina was saying, you're not letting these outside forces control how you're thinking about things. because it's very easy to get in the trap of, like, chasing something, you know. It's very easy, to be honest. I think we've, I think everyone's guilty of that. Like, even if you're trying not to, like, you're still thinking about it. You know, like, um. But it's weird because that's how I see.

That's how social media kind of started. It was this idea of, look, what someone else is doing. Use it for commercial reasons. Because if, if this influences got it, then you're going to watch it. or want it and you're going to want to buy it and do it and be like them. Or they are demonstrating this perfect life that they don't actually have. But it makes you want to be associated. But I'm seeing more and more people now using social media for more supportive, more real stuff.

I think we're seeing a maturing, seeing things going in different ways. I mean, I'm not saying that it's all going that way. but just glimpses of it. Yeah, I think you're right. And that's actually another topic that's covered in that book that I recommended earlier called Digital Minimalism. It talks about this because there is a shift happening right now with these social media platforms where people are using them for things that they're not intended for.

And all these platforms, what they're intended for, in all honesty, they're intended to hook you. They're intended to, you know, make you want to concentrate. constantly be refreshing your news feed and seeing like, you know, these things coming at you and they're designed like, almost like a slot machine. You know, that's why you have to pull down to refresh. It's not because it's the best way to do that. It's literally because your mind thinks you're pulling on a slot machine handle and it's dicting, you know, and there is a shift happening now where people are starting to wake up

and realize, well, I don't have to be, you know, tweeting my fake lifestyle and you know, anymore or looking at these accounts that are not true. I could be using this for good. And I think the biggest shift that I saw, honestly, has been with TikTok because, you know, Dennis said earlier, like I was watching this TikTok the other day and I saw this thing that changed my life. And TikTok, when it first started,

it was literally just like a platform for people to do, you know, goofy dance moves. Yeah. Right? But during the pandemic and primarily, during the Black Lives Matter movement and the George Floyd protest and all that, like TikTok became the platform,

it became the place to go if you wanted to see what was happening on the streets for those things. Like it wasn't Instagram, it wasn't Twitter, it wasn't Facebook, it was literally people that were on TikTok in the middle of a protest and were just showing you and showing you the reality of like what's going on in the world.

And people, you know, people, crying and people dying and all this. And it changed the way people use TikTok. And now you open up TikTok and yeah, they're still goofy dancing. There's still memes and funny stuff. But every once in a while, you'll come across his TikTok like Dennis did and you're like, wow, I learned something today. That's weird.

Like I'm on TikTok. I was not expecting to learn on TikTok today, but that's happening. And it's awesome to see because it's, it's, I think it's time for people to kind of you know change a little bit you know the i'm not saying like i'm perfect but i i do think we can all do better you know it's not just not just one person it's literally all of us together so actually something that i wanted to ask gina is from from your perspective working in the games industry as as long as you have what can the normal like gamer do to kind of help like some small small quick easy things like we can all do to kind of help each other

be a little bit more mindful and, you know, kind of make sure that we're treating each other as nicely as possible. Yeah, I think the first thing is really simple just to be kind. Be kind online. Be kind when you play games. Be kind to your community manager. It actually is really easy to be kind.

But it's something you don't see that often. Just to take a moment. check out how people are. You know, how often does someone in a community just, you know, shout down a question rather than just checking, you know, that the other person is actually a human being. How are they today?

What's going on? And then I would love to see, and this sounds like a strange dream, is for gamers and people in the games industry to celebrate that we're this fantastic art form, that we're not dark and evil. and a subculture. We're mass market.

We're proud to play games. It's not, you know, I want to be able to tell people that I work in the games industry and them to go, wow, that's really just amazing. And that's not always the reaction I get. Great. So to try and to change people's perspective of us

so that people don't think the safe in a world is a charity looking after people who play too much. that they can see the power of games, the power of how games can not only tell a story, but put you in a situation that maybe you wouldn't have experienced and you get to work out what you want to do. It challenges your thinking. But it also brings people together and brings great joy,

great humor, great friendships. That stuff never comes to the fore. Games are hugely powerful, but honestly, really good fun. Yeah. And yeah, I'd like to see more celebration of that. Yeah, I just, it's funny to say that because I just,

I've been playing a lot of Monster Hunter lately on my Switch. And I usually play the game solo, right? I'll like throw in a podcast. I'll play the game solo. I'll grind coastal monsters. Last night, I was like, you know what? I'm in this Monster Hunter Discord. I'm just going to join a random lobby and see what's up, right?

So I joined a group and I spent like three hours through these dudes just like shooting the shit and just talking. And it was like the funniest thing ever. Because these random people have never met before, and we're just talking about the game, we're talking about other dumb things, and it was like a lot of fun. And I feel like a lot of people forget that, you know,

games are a really great vehicle for connection. Like, one of my favorite memories of playing games was when, I guess, years ago, I was playing World Warcraft during Wrath of the Litch King expansion. And I was with this group that I've been playing with for years, right? And when we took down the Litch King, which if you know anything about Warcraft and the lore is like this huge character, right?

He's been around forever and, you know, we've finally got a good chance to like beat him and, you know, save the world again, blah, blah, blah. But there's like this great sense of like connection once we finally took that fight down because it wasn't just like we beat a boss. It was we beat this boss together and we've been working towards this for pretty much like a year.

And it was, it's like those kind of experiences that that you're right, we do need to kind of let people know. like, hey, I did this great thing with a ton of of the people, you know, like, how often do you get the group up with like five, six, seven, eight, ten people and just do a thing together, right? Almost never. Are you the, are you the Leroy Jenkins guy? No, no, that was, that's before my time. That was a, that was a black rock depths or black wing layer for those who know. If you know, you know, you know. Yeah. I think that's true. Like, I think video games. is definitely a good place for connecting and not just online.

Like, just recently I started, well, I've showed my daughter video games before, but now I'm actually like trying to teach her how to play stuff. She's only three, so she's a total noob. But it's cool. Like it's her fault. I love her. But it's awesome to me when she tells me, she's like, I want to play bubble pop. And she's talking about puzzle bubble.

You know, she likes to pop these bubbles. I love that game. Yeah, and it's cool because, like, it is, we do connect over it. So, like, every night, you know, after her bath, we, we listen to this Snow White and the Seven Dwarves record that she likes, and then we play some bubble pop. And for me, it is a form of connection with her because I'm not just, like, you know, using video games as a way to distract her or to, you know, like, keep her busy while I have to do something. It's literally me and her having time together. and having fun. And I never got that experience with my parents,

because even though my parents did buy me, you know, an Atari and the Super Nintendo and all that stuff, like they always told me the opposite where it's like video games are making you stupid. And, you know, you can play video games, but you better stop at this time because they're a waste of time and, you know, you need to do something better with your life and all that. And I definitely want to have a different approach with my daughter

and, you know, let her know, like I like video games. and I'm going to show you some video games. And if you want to play video games with me, cool. If not, no big deal. We'll find something else to do. But I don't want to be that dad that's like, you know, basically not trying to, I guess using video games in a, I just want to be the dad that uses video games

in a positive way, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. It's not, it's not, there's no, there's nothing bad inherently with playing video games, you know. But even the stuff, so if you're, if you're playing games with her that's using a touchscreen, then you will speed up, and there have been studies that show this, speed up her ability to write, because she's creating that skill and functionality within her muscles

to be able to do that. And the same with playing games and computational thinking, being able to solve problems and put a variety of steps together. That's something that's really required within workforces and is a real life skill, and that comes so much from playing games. So I think, again, more and more employers across the border looking for people who play games, because it links so closely with great skills.

I can't wait for my next job interview to be like, have you ever participated in a multi-person rate in a video game? Yes, I have. And I've led them before too. It's like, all right, you're hired. All right. So we're going to wrap it up here a little bit. Gina, actually, wait, hold up. I'm going to jump in the gun here a little bit. Questions, community questions. We don't have too many this time, but I have one more I want to ask real quick. This is for everybody. Do you see mental health decreasing as technology becomes more inclusive in everyday life? It's really interesting. It's an interesting phrasing of the question as well on mental health. health decreasing or how you see the expression of mental health. I always like to compare mental health to physical health. So do I see growing problems around or diagnosis of mental health increasing or

decreasing? I think it'll increase because there is so much stuff that is under the radar now. but I think it will make people happier, if that makes sense, going back to our happiness thing. So I think people will have greater mental health because they're more open, they're more honest, and they're getting more help. Yeah, I think it's also linked to how you use it to it, right?

Like anything can be bad for you if you don't use it properly or if you overuse it. So I think that, you know, technology becoming more inclusive doesn't necessarily mean that our mental health will go down. It just means that we'll have to learn new ways to use new technology to make sure that it's helping us rather than hurting us. I think that's how that's what go about, right? Yeah, but it's, you know, we choose how we're going to use stuff.

Exactly, yeah. We've talked about the evolution of social media. Yeah. You know, I think it's, you know, I've really taken to Discord. I love some of the stuff going on. I talked a bit before about Minecraft and how people are using that for the guided and all sorts of other things. It's making sure we amplify people who are using it really well.

And I'm all about celebrating today. So but sharing and celebrating great stuff and not and finding ways of destroying a lot of the toxicity that we've allowed to happen through, particularly about through new technology communication channels. I just think we weren't particularly bright or clever about how we used them. And they were kind of, it was the commercialisation of them that came first. And I think we all need to be a little more Ivan in our thinking. Can you say that again, please? Can we be a little well, Ivan? Can you clip that and tweet it, please?

I think we'll do. But I think you've picked up some great things on meaning and setting up meaning. And then how can we all go and use that within the new technology streams and how we do stuff? And how can we ignore people who are doing it badly rather than amplifying what they're doing? Because 99% of people are amazing and wonderful and beautiful and embracing. We just need to bring that side of people out. Yeah, I love that you say that because I didn't always think that way. I used to think that most people are jerks to get me.

until I had a daughter and I, like I, we're talking in the, in the, in the, before the show here, um, how one of my favorite things ever has been watching my daughter go from a sack of potatoes to a human being, like with feelings and stuff. And now that I, I, I've seen that happen and I see it happening every single day. Like now when I talk to other people or I meet other people like Gina or Dennis or whoever, I always think, these are good people. And I know that because they were a baby and all babies are good people right and I think we're all born good we're not always good but I think honest I really do believe we're all deep down inside good people and like Gina was saying earlier it's easy to be nice you know and I think it isn't it isn't

like I feel like it is it's an easy concept but it's not always easy for people to accept it but once you accept it it is easy to be nice you know it is it isn't take a lot to be nice. It's just a matter of, you know, flipping that switch in your mind and going, like, I don't have to be mean today. I could be nice and I could help someone. So remember, we all need to be a little bit more like Ivan, like Gina said. Right. No, that's, that's good. That's pretty much it for the questions. It's a one on robotics, but I mean, I feel like if we get a robot man, we'll probably talk about that. Sorry, dogs go nuts in the background right now.

Gina, what is going on with Safe in Our World? What are you up to you right now? So we are celebrating mental health awareness week and month by doing a massive fundraiser for the month. And we've had huge support, particularly from streamers. And again, I think streamers and influencers get a really bad name. And I've pushed a load of stuff to government recently to say, look at all these amazing streamers and how much much

money they raise for charity and how they desigmatize mental health. So that for us is a massive one. We also have our own Discord server called Safely Together, just a place people can pop in and chat about how they feel or find someone to play a game with. And then I've talked about the two other big things we do around Level Up and the community manager mental health training. We are looking very closely at what's going to happen as various different countries come out of lockdown and the distress and anxiety that brings on to people and what we can do about starting the conversations about that. I don't know how it is in the US, but I think there's going to be a lot of battles between employers and employees on going back to the office.

It's happening now, yeah. Yeah. Or vaccinations or. or and again, I think it's, I think a lot of people are trying to get control of stuff because they felt so out of control. And again, it's seeing the best in people. And I think a lot of policies and a lot of the way people work and live is about worrying about the 1% who don't pull their way.

Whereas if people could be a little bit more trusting of the 99%, I think things would be a lot. nicer. You're here, folks. Fight the upper class, right? That's what I'm hearing. What the heck? I'm not sure that's a good summary.

But I think, you know, we come back to that whole issue of talk and discuss. We must be thrown the queen, right? Is that what you're saying? No, but definitely like, we, we as like people who aren't like you know like you're saying like that top one percent right need to make sure that we're fighting for ourselves and fighting for the things that we need and we want and things are going to make sure that we can live like happy and productive lives right essentially yeah but i think we need to stop fighting i think it's an interesting word that you picked we need to fight for it no we just need to to talk and debate and take the stress out of a lot

of things i think we've forgotten how to debate and talk to people who've got different opinions to us. And it's okay for someone else to have a different opinion to you, but it doesn't mean to say you can't feel really strongly about something. You can be passionate about it, just don't necessarily be rude. You know that folks, be nice. Don't be rude. Don't be like me and don't start fights. Start open and honest debates. Don't get me wrong. Push me into a corner and I will come out as a big mama bear and support and protect people. Absolutely. I'm hugely passionate about things. But I don't want to dominate and dictate things. I want people to have a consensus and genuinely for people to have contentment and happiness. I don't think that should be

too much to ask for. It really shouldn't be too much chance for it should be the easiest thing in the world. All right. What is Gina up to? What are you up to Gina? What are going on? I've got all sorts of things going on. I work with a bunch of days who I advise and I love working with people who are passionate and do their dream jobs. I'm involved in a whole bunch of training, particularly in the UK. We're looking at post-COVID what we can do to get our economy back up and running and games is a great vehicle for that. So trying to encourage more people to come into games, particularly from other sectors and sectors that have been massively hit by COVID.

There is no better producer than someone who's worked in a restaurant. Someone who can basically spin plates and multitask and make sure that everything's going on make the best game producers, I believe. So there's that whole side of things. And then I do a lot of stuff trying to persuade school kids that games is a valid career and to show them paths in and people who've got to their careers, not necessarily going to university, but coming through different routes and finding ways that they can showcase their talent. That's how I did it.

Yeah. I definitely did not finish school. And it's funny because my mom still. doesn't really know what I do. And though I've tried explaining to her like 20 times. Like, mom, I do social media. She's like, huh? You play games all day?

I'm like, sure, yeah, I play games all day. You'd be fair, I don't really know what you do all day even. Same, to be honest. I need a list just to figure it out. All right, and a quick community roundup guys. No, gone are the days of saying, nothing going on because you've got a lot going on. We recently opened up the NZC shop and the gaming bot.

Check out the announcements on our Discord. server, Discord.g.g. slash nzxte to find out what the heck we're going on. But TLDR, you can earn perks and points and spend those points on a lot of stuff, like podcast questions,

monthly role, nickname change, stuff like that. We also added new regional channels as well. Don't forget to check out the mental health channel and the Tiny Victories channel that we've added. There's so much going on.

And stay tuned for the office hours with Alex Chan because he'll be back. He's coming back. In effect. I think I said that completely wrong. But yeah, don't go to him on the game night. Pace yourself. There'll be like me and go broke.

Fighting other people on the server. And you'll be good. Gina, thank you very much for joining us. Really appreciate having you here. It's been a great talk. Thank you. And honestly, I've learned so much. I am so working on that meaning in my life.

Ivan, what are you going to find meaning in today? I'm going to find meaning in trying to decipher why Gina is a Pompei fan. Uh-oh. I just linked her Twitter. It's at Pompei Gina on Twitter. You guys should follow her. So in her bio it says she's a Pompei fan. So I'm going to try to find meaning into that.

I'm sure I figure that out. I don't know much about Pompeii. I want to know why. So I've got to tell you it's a football team in the UK and we are ferocious supporters. We are incredibly vocal. We travel all over the country. And I think there's nothing better from your well-being than being with a whole bunch of people who want exactly the same thing as you want and demonstrate that with their chanting, singing

and vocalizing their passion. So football, you mean soccer? Yeah. Not sure means football, Ivan. Listen, right? American football, you only kick the ball once, right? Football, okay soccer, puts on the ball all the time. Why do we call a football, Ivan?

I don't understand that. It should be called hand egg. Exactly, right. That's literally it was about to say to you. It should be called hand egg. Thank you to everybody else to tuned in. Remember to tune in next week at 10 a.m. Pacific Center time, the official NZXC Discord server and follow at NZXD in all relevant and irrelevant social

media. And if you have a question, you want to ask off the air, either spend your poochie points or send an email to Clubcast at nzxc.com. That is cLUB at nzxte.com. My phone is blowing up with a bunch of spam messages. And don't forget to listen to previous episodes on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, and SoundCloud. And if you guys do is a really big favor, it's just everyone's bringing in for a minute here. Let's bring it in real quick. Please leave us a please leave us a review on the platform of choice if you like what you hear, but especially if you don't.

I like that criticism. Thanks again, Gina. Really appreciate it so much. Thank you. Thank you, Gina. Thank you, Ivan, for being here as well. You're welcome, Dennis. I thank you to everyone else.

We'll see you next week. Bye. Bye-bye.