Odd Lots - A New Chilean Constitution Could Mean Big Changes to Copper and Lithium Mining

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

In theory, a big shift towards renewable sources of energy (like wind and solar and electric vehicles) mean less money and power for Russia, and the OPEC nations. But new forms of energy also require resource extraction. And we've already seen growing tension in places that have abundant copper and lithium deposits. So what are the new politics of extraction? On this episode of the podcast we speak with microbiologist Cristina Dorador who, among other things, has been a contributor to a proposed new Chilean constitution that will be put to a referendum later this year. The constitution seeks to enshrine certain restrictions and rights that may make mining more difficult or costlier than it has been in the past. And whether the constitutional reforms pass or not, it's representative of a growing backlash in many places to the way mining rights were handled in the past. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Saturdays and Sundays starting at 7 a.m. Eastern. Make us part of your weekend routine on Bloomberg Television, radio, and wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. And I'm Tracy Allaway. Tracy, one of the themes that comes up on a lot of episodes is that, you know, there is going to be a lot of demand for various metals and various minerals in the so-called energy transition in order to electrify the economy.

but that that process itself is fraught with its own environmental consequences and risk. Right. So this is the ultimate irony of, I guess, the Green Revolution. In order to save the world and bring down emissions, we have to move to new types of energy, electrification, a lot of which requires certain types of minerals and metals, and getting those is actually environmentally destructive in many ways. Right. So we recently had a conversation, for example, with Nick Snowden of Goldman Sachs. And of course, over the long term, he's extremely bullish on copper, for example. But as he noted, you know, one of the reasons for his like super bullish copper call is that there just is not as much mining activity. And he pointed

out, you know, around the world. It's not just in rich countries around the world. There's been much more concerned being raised about the environmental consequences of mining. The water consumption that happens in copper mining specifically. And he noted that Chile, which many people know, is one of the biggest sources of copper in the world. It's become a much more difficult place to get a new mine built. Right. So even if there is theoretically enough copper in the ground to satisfy the world's demands for electrification, it's becoming harder and more challenging to get it out because there are these additional environmental concerns. And in Chile, in particular, They're even writing some of these environmental concerns into their new constitution, which is very different to the types of constitutional writing that we've seen historically.

Yeah. And so copper, of course, lithium is another big one for batteries because, of course, you have copper with the transmission. And then you have, you know, this boom in batteries. But again, lots of similar environmental issues raised. And so rather than just, you know, talking about, yes, there are all these environmental issues that get, that have to be addressed. we should probably talk more about what they are, what the opposition is, what are the concerns, why are politics changing, and how do we resolve or think about resolving some of these tensions? Absolutely. And I'm also very interested in this from an ESG perspective, because one of the fundamental questions over ESG has always been, should you let the market decide this or should the government actually be making these restrictions? And Chile is really an interesting case example

of all of this. Well, I'm very, we really have, I think, the perfect guest for this episode. We're going to be speaking with Dr. Christina Dorador. She is a microbiologist from Chile, and she is a former member of the Constitutional Assembly of Chile. Just recently, just a few days ago, we're recording this July 8th, but on July 4th, this new proposed constitution that it codifies and shrines some of these environmental protections was put forward. It's going to be voted on later in the day. the year, but she was involved in drafting this new proposed constitution. And for the first time, which really gets at some of these tensions and puts it of mining and protecting the environment right into the constitution itself. So Dr. Dorado, thank you so much for coming on odd lots.

Thanks to you for their invitation. So why don't you just give us a little bit of your background in bio. I mentioned that you're a microbiologist. I mentioned that you've been part of this new constitutional assembly in Chile. But where does your interest in this space and work in this space come from? I did my undergrad in biology. Then I did my PhD in Germany, where I focused the study of microorganisms in extreme environments. So then I come back to Chile to analyze the microorganisms that are living in the desert, that Takama Desert. And also, in other places such as Salaris. There are very special ecosystem, evaporitic lakes that now are the source for lithium.

So I'm working in this subject more than, I don't know, 20 years ago. So we have a lot of experience about ecology and also the macroorganism that living there. So you mentioned the unique ecosystem of Chile. Could you maybe give us a little bit more color on that? Like, what exactly is it about the geography of Chile that makes it so important to things like copper and lithium mining? Sure. Well, Chile is a land of extremes. In the north of Chile, we have the driest desert in the world. That's Atacama Desert in the south. It's Patagonia. But specifically in Otakama Desert, there are a high concentration of minerals and also high diversity. So it's possible to find almost the whole periodic table here and also is in large reserves.

And in a special case of the water, because it's an arid desert, of course, water is under the ground. And also the fresh water is coming from raining during the summer. And it's located in these special lakes that are called Salarez, I've already mentioned, and a couple of rivers. So the water is very scarce. And actually for all the mining, the big mining that produced Chile is using the scarce water from the desert. So it's also a big paradox. Yeah. So that's something that came up on a recent episode.

And we were talking to the chief metal strategist at Goldman Sachs. And he mentioned, you know, he said, you know, the copper mining is generally improved. it's sort of environmental sustainability, but for one thing, there is a huge water need in copper mining. Can you talk a little bit about from your perspective what you see, you know, start with copper. I'll also talk a lot about lithium since I know you do a lot of work on that. But what do you see is sort of like the environmental costs or the price that Chile or people in Chile pay for being such a big source of copper mine? Yeah, well, copper mining exploitation has happened here since, I don't know, more than 100 years. And so it's a long story.

And during all this time, the water that's using for these processes have been obtained locally. So that means from underground water and also the Loa River, that is the only river that we have here in the Antofagasta region. And the large copper mining in the last, from the 90s, started. the big private mining and working, they have been used water from Salarez. So there are many cases than this big mining have

drying out whole ecosystem for using the whole water, extracting the water for more than 20, 25 years, day and night. So that is a massive environmental damage. And also it's not only the damage is

environmentally, also social, because they have practices that people were not used to deal with. And so it's very complex. But now copper mining is to start to use the salinous water from the sea. So either direct sea water or through the salinization plants. But also, of course, everything has an effect. And the main problem I think here is the magnitude.

Because the magnitude of processing this copper is, immense. It's so big that people can see these holes from the space, you know. So that means also an equivalent amount of water that have to be used. So my understanding is that a lot of water is also used in lithium mining. Could you maybe describe that process as well? And also tell us what your own research says about quantifying the economic damage from these types of processes. Yeah. In the case of lithium. Lithium is concentrated here in this evaporitic basin

called Salarez. They were in the past large paleo lakes that through the time had been drying out and the industry what they do is to pump it out the brines that are actually water full of salts or concentrated in salts

and between these salts are lithium there and they evaporate the water. So this is some water mining So it's not a mining from the rocks, it's from the water. So they have to be free of the water. So evaporate the water and then concentrate the lake. In a very arid place, produce major effects.

So we have studied through using satellite images and also other parameters. The Salar de Takama, where is the main extraction right now, has been affected in different ways. For example, it's less water in general. but also the population of flamingos have been migrated from here. In the last 10 years, population of endemic flamingo have been decreases in a 12%. You can get the news whenever you want it with Bloomberg News Now. I'm Amy Morris.

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the latest stories and developments. Get the reporting and the context from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts we're all over the world. Listen to the latest from Bloomberg News Now on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen. Your scientific background is microbiology. Can you talk a little bit further about the microbiology of the region? And I mean, this is going to sound crass, but I don't mean it at all in a crass way. But I guess the question is, why should people care more about this? And in theory, I get why people worry about the loss of wildlife, the loss of biological diversity and so forth.

But how do you, especially like even in the drafting of the constitution, how do you express the risks involved from damaging some of these ecosystems? It's very complicated because first all this ecosystem I'm talking about at a tacama desert and salaries for a long time have been thinking that they were not life there because if you see a picture from the takama is nothing you cannot see in some part any plant so but the life is there is microbial so if we take any sample from from this dry soil of soil of salt or whatever, we can't found bacteria and microorganisms that live there. And they are very important part of the trophic web. So flamingos, for example, that are in this Saladotagama and in others, they eat sediments. And these sediments are full of bacteria and that also being used as a source of energy and pigments and whatever that are important for their life. So everything is related.

So, and that's why they're very fragile, because when the system change at microbial level also affect at major levels. So the impacts are even bigger. So that's been very complicated to explain this because it's different. There is another sensibility when environmentalists, for example, they claim to protect a native forest or Patagonia, you know, is visible. life there and also the landscape are amazing so people really feel touchy about that but when you talk about please protect the desert it's like a what the desert is there to be exploded more than hundred years ago have been the the source of resources for Chile always so nobody really talk about protection of the desert is something even sometime uncomfortable because you know

environmental is not seen as something important for a long time about mining. So we have to put that information also on the table for discussion in the assembly. And we reach, I think, very important object. First, we declare that nature has rights. And this is a major advance because change or ethics regarding ecology. So we recognize ourselves as a human as part of our ecosystem. And that also means that we need as a human, of course, we have the responsibility to take care about the nature regarding certain regulations, of course. So, yeah, this was very interesting challenge. How do people in Chile feel about the mining industry? And I realize it's difficult to

generalize and probably your opinion will be informed by how close you are to any mining operations. But my understanding is that it brings a lot of money into the country, but that money is not necessarily well distributed among the population and that economic inequality is one of the reasons why the country embarked on this new constitution process in the first place. There were big protests in 2019. So how do people feel broadly about the industry? Well, in general, there is a feeling that the economic system that Chile has, mostly based on the extraction of raw materials, even minerals or forests or salmon, whatever. It's not really helping people because of the political system that we have, a legacy from

the constitution of 1980s. So that's why I was so important to change this constitution. First, to warranty social rights. So now we advance from a subsidiary state, one based on democracy and social rights. And regarding mining, so I'm come from Antofagasta. This is the biggest region of mining, as I was saying in Chile, and I'm probably in the world for copper. And my family is from here. So we have a long history in this territory.

And the feeling of the people is that, of course, it's important mining. They give a lot of jobs. But I haven't really improved life here. So, for example, we still doesn't have good railways or good transportation system, whatever. Those are the basic things for living in a place. All the money goes to Santiago and especially three, we say, communas, the most rich ones. And from there, they distribute the money back to the territories. So that is very unfair.

That's why one of the most important advances is a new proposal of constitution, is that the state create a new political and regional system is called Estado Regional or Regional States, when every region is half autonomy. And that's very important because we will take our own decision and also we will have our own money. We will not have to depend anymore of the decision of Santiago. So that is a major advance. and probably also that will have consequences at, you know, at environmental on other levels. So you mentioned enshrining the rights of nature in the Constitution. And again, this is the first time that this has really been done, done to my knowledge, on a constitutional basis.

But how far does the draft that was released this week actually go? Is it a complete ban on mining or something less than that? Nothing changed, really, as we have in short place, in the short term, sorry. The important thing is that, for example, for water. In Chile, water has been privatized. So now we demand in the constitution that all these propriety rights are compared into authorization. So before, people can freely obtain this. the property rights and are having forever, you know, for perpetual. So now we'll be focused on the humans, on people, instead of the different other uses.

Because we also write in this proposal the human right for water that was not guaranteed. In Chile, there are people that don't have access to water at all. But next to them, their population are companies using the water, you know, and the state don't focus on people. So this kind of inequalities we have already. So that's why it's so important to advance in this recognition of the nature right. So it's not only just that. Also, there is a whole very robust body of articles that will help to put that in movement,

all this rights, especially the creation of the... We call the fensary of the environment. So people could, they represent their demands or the requirements about nature protection. And of course, the environmental standards, either for mining or for other activities, will increase. But that is, I wanted to say that as it's not something bad. It's something necessary. We as our country will be one of the most affected country by climate change. So we need to also take care about our future.

I know it's a manifestation of copper and lithium is very important now for UV cars and everything. But also we need to take care about our own land. You know, and this is the opportunity that we have, you know, to write our own constitution say that we want for the future of people. I want to ask more about what the Constitution actually does and how you see it working. But before we do, you mentioned the water system in Chile. And my understanding is that it's the only country in the world with a fully privatized water market. Can you explain how that came to be? Well, that was a whole ideological plan preparing during the dictatorship of Pinochet.

So the constitution of 1980s was written in a way. that to think about the state needs to have less power. And it's also very important elements like the water and other were privatized because in the ideology, they think that this is the best way to manage a country. But now after more than 40 years, we know that this is not the way for us. That's why there was this, it is all these, stagio social or no in 2019 and and it's not really working you know all the system produce a large inequality in in the country that is immense and not

not only regarding to money or access to to buy thing of consumers also cultural gender base depends where you live everything so it's important to maintain a social equilibrium or social peace like that. That's why it's so important to change the constitution. And with this in mind, for example, the water code was created in 1981, and in 1982 already the big miners were already obtaining the water right, that was explodes in the 90s. So there was a whole preparation for to produce,

produce large amount of copper after the dictatorship. So, my, Cori, the last time we talked about this, our guests said that already Chile has become a much harder place to launch a new copper mine. So even setting aside the new constitution and whether it passes in a national referendum, that in 2022, it's significantly more difficult to get started on a new mining project than it was 20 years ago in the early 2000s when we had the last sort of commodity super cycle and there was tons of demand from China for copper and other minerals and it sent prices soaring. Can you talk a little bit about what's happened and what's changed over the last several years such that politics has changed, mining,

permitting is changed, and just, I guess, general awareness of environmental consequences. has become more top of mind. I'm not really agree with that because we just try to be fair. For one way, all the, in the economical point of view, usually is not include the environmental damage. We don't know, for example, the amount of money that have been maybe paid by the state to solve problems related to big mining because it's not in the equation. Also, it's not in the equation, the social cause, for example, the work that is not paid well by women, because women have all the tasks of care.

Thanks to that, men's especially can work in the mines. That's not included in this equation. So probably we are not really seeing the whole pictures. That's why we just demand more control, no, that people can also be part of the decision, because also the constitution includes that methods of direct democracy and more participation in the decision that we affect their own lives. It's more democracy. And that is a very good news for the world because also for the mining,

if they do well stuff now regarding all the world, this new, if it's a proof, of course, new demands, they will have a higher consideration at local level. Because also for some people, they are bad neighbors, you know. So it's also important to think about this point of view. So would you say that as of right now, like the current status quo, that there just hasn't been much change in that, you know, the extractive industries, whether we're talking copper, lithium, other minerals that companies want to mine. The status quo right now is still pretty liberal in terms of what companies are able to do. Yeah, it's pretty liberal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, the environmental regulation, but they're not so strong as it should be, I think. For example, just a very short example. Here in Atacama, there is a case of a gold mine that was actually everywhere in the world than was the National Geographic magazine, where to start to dig the mining, they need to move a whole colony of chintilla. That is an animal in almost...

Oh, chinchillas are very cute. Yes. Exactly as well. And they propose a plan to move the chintilla from this mountain and to move to another one. And of course, in the transportation, they'll die. And that's not good mining. It's complicated, but I think we need to face these problems in a wider way.

We need to talk about it. Not just everything has to be surrounded by market. We need to also think about the future. We cannot do the same thing forever because we have limits. The planet has limits. And if we put inside the climate change, it's even worse. So that's why it's so important to include different ways and include diversity. people that think differently in these big dialogues.

Otherwise, nothing will happen. I would be worse at the end of the event. So on the topic of paradoxes and looking at the planet as a whole, and I want to make it really clear that this is a devil's advocate question before I ask it. But what do you say to people who will look at the situation in Chile and they will say, well, we need that copper and we need that lithium so that we can shift to cleaner and greener technologies on a global basis. We need electric cars.

We need more electricity in general in order to reduce emissions and save the entire planet. And what if it is necessary to sacrifice a desert in Chile in order to save the planet more broadly? What would you say to those people? I think we need more elements in the conversation. First, I think all we are agreed, then we need to decrease emission. is something crucial. But the countries that produce more carbon dioxide, they're really doing their best.

They're really decreasing the amount of carbon that they produce. Because we, Chile, we are a very small country compared to others. We don't produce much carbon. We don't produce very little compared to the big China or the U.S. but we have the copper and the lithium. And also the question is, of course, it's important to make this just transition for electricity, but really will change our destiny of global warming? That's one question that we have to solve.

I think we need more research about that and an open research. Our research that includes other views, not just, and, you know, a way of replacement. What we do is a replacement of things. We replace cars based on carbon to cars based on electricity, but still being cars. And it's not also any incentive to decrease the number of cars. It's the opposite.

So I think the conversantial have to be more honest. It's not just we sacrifice ecosystem for the good of the planet, because I'm not sure that it's like that at the end if we put all together. So the current status quo seems to be you have a few extremely rich countries or very big countries in the case of China that produce a massive amount of emissions. And then there are mining and it's in smaller countries. As you mentioned, Chile is not a very big contributor to emissions or global warming directly. And so the rich countries in the world want to electrify and need or want the minerals and metals of poorer countries.

Do you work with activists and scientists and politicians in other countries as well to think about a sort of global response to this? And more broadly, like, why do you think it's happening now? Because my impression is that it's not just in Chile where people are sort of becoming more aware and waking up to some of the costs associated with industrial scale mining. Sure, sure. You know, science and knowledge is a collective work. My case also have been a personal way, personal road, because I'm from a very specific discipline that is microbiologists.

And I have to, and when, how realize this thing? Because I'm work in Salaris. So every time I've been there working to study the biochemical mechanism for bacterial for adaptation to extreme conditions, we went there and we noticed of the lake that we are working. I say that it's also having a personal road. You know, me as a microbiologist, scientists working in a very specific mechanism to understand the biology of microbes. Then we worked to the salary working and every time we were there, we realized that it was something different.

So the place that we're used to work that doesn't exist anymore. They were completely drying out, for example. So at some point, we faces that personally. So, okay, it's very important. The science, it's very important to write papers, to be in the system. But what we as a human, as a person living here, we can't protect this ecosystem. we know that is so important. They have a high biodiversity.

They're probably in terms of bioptic compounds. It's a source of new medicine for the world. But the use that now exists and this ecosystem is the destruction because lithium extraction is the destruction. It means the destruction of the salaries. There's no other way until now. And that's why I start to talk with other people, with other countries, with other disciplines.

I start to also create a name. network of people from anthropology that also works in economy. And we are discussing this. And I realized that it was not crazy to think, you know, could be another way, and other possibilities. And that we are trying to work now. Can technology save us from having to make some of these hard decisions? I feel like that that's what people are often hoping, right? That there will be more efficient ways to use water when it comes to copper or lithium. and it won't have as big an environmental impact, and we can keep doing it while electrifying the planet. Is that a possibility? Yeah, technology is important. Science is very important.

Chile, especially a country that invests very, very few in science and technology. That's why is something that we put a lot of attention in the new constitution. We declare the rights of knowledge, and we hope, I really hope that that will produce more alternatives and also more technology. But there is no one solution to this. You know, it's that very, very complex. And we also have to face this complexity. And to face complexity, we need to include more people in the discussions. So July 4th, the new constitution was unveiled.

What is the process now, just for our listeners, there's going to be a referendum. later this year? Like what happens between now and then and how does this work? Yeah, yeah. It would be a referendum this September 4th in two months, more or less. Now already started the campaigns about two decisions. Just approval, approve or reject, recusal, and the proposal that we did. So if it's won the recital, we will stay as we are.

without changes, but also it's a complicated situation because we will not give any response to the social demands of people. So probably that also we produce a time on political instability in the country. And if you win the approval, we need to also, I mean, as a country, we need to work install what the constitution say, that of course would be a long-term process. probably would take years to do that, but I think it's very necessary, considering that we need to advance in wellness for the people and also to face this big challenge that we have as a small country that also will be very effective by climate change.

Do you think the new constitution will be approved? Yeah, I think so. It's complicated. There is a lot of fake news around it. Mass media are not really helping. But I think people are very interesting and they're really looking for changes. So, yeah, now we have to work a lot for that. How exportable do you think some of the principles enshrined in this new constitution would be to other countries? And, you know, I've seen it described, well, in all types of language, I think the economist called it a fiscally irrespective.

left-wing wish list, which seems quite harsh. I've seen people call it a woke constitution. I've seen other people just say it's more progressive in the sense that it pays attention to what people in Chile actually care about, which, you know, is gender and economic equality and environmental concerns as you've been laying out. Do you think the principles or just the idea of some of these principles could be used in other countries? Well, during the dictatorship, Chile also live, I think, one of the biggest experiments in the world. No, no, we were the experiment for the neoliberalism. And that's the consequences.

So, and now this is a hope for people, hope to live, I would have a good life. And also when we explained that to people, I have the experience to live in Europe, for example. analysis is something, you know, normal that someone have right to go to the hospital and have good quality attention or to go to the, or the kids can go to the school and they will be accepted, not because of the amount of money that they will have. So, they're basic things. That's the human rights that we are looking for here. So, and I think the analysts sometimes, especially when the looks of South America, they really reduce the complexity of politics to left or right.

Here we're facing big challenges. I think what is climate change? It's left or right? It's different. It's different. So I think that's also we need to do a more deep, try to understand what's going on in other countries. Think a little bit outside the box of the market.

think a little bit about the diversity, the contribution of the diversity and also the future. And that's one of the things that Chile can contribute. Especially, for example, I will mention about this is the first time that we include native, you know, indigenous people in this conversation. And that also produced, for example, we push an area called epistemic justice or knowledge justice. So we have to respect what the other think and also what they know. That's why in our constitution, regarding the right for science, we call right for knowledge. So it's the first time, and also it's a recommendation from UNESCO, that we recognize the knowledge as a whole. So I mean,

science, technology, but also arts, humanities, local knowledge and indigenous knowledge. And that, I think, very important starting point to deal with this complex problems that we are deal right now, and of course, who will deal in the future. Dr. Dorador, thank you so much for coming on. We've been needing this perspective in the conversation for a while, and really appreciate you laying it out and talking about the work that you've done on the new constitution and the rethinking of the costs of mining. So appreciate you coming on at last.

Okay, thank you very much again. I hope the ideas were understandable. Yeah, absolutely. Because this is not easy other, in other language. But thank you very much to cover this thing. I think it's important for the audience. Thanks, Christina. Yeah, thank you so much.

Tracy, I thought that was a really good conversation. And I think that, you know, whether you think, oh, electrification and decarbonization should be prioritized, whether you think, you know, wherever you wait with these various issues, Like this tension is very real. Yeah. And I don't know whether the new Chilean constitution is going to pass or not in September. But I don't think that this sort of like growing awareness and maybe backlash towards some of the environmental costs of mining is something that's going to diminish any time soon.

No, it feels like the tension is kind of inescapable at this point. I did think Christina's point about electric cars and the transition there. This is something that came up before, although I can't remember who, but this idea that even if Western countries shift to completely electrified modes of transport, it doesn't mean that suddenly the whole planet is saved because a lot of those old vehicles just go to emerging markets and continue spewing emissions. So I think what she's getting at is the need for a holistic planet-wide plan. And then when I say that, I just feel very, very sad because it feels like that is so far off. And it is really hard to sort of balance individual interests versus the whole. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing is like, look, I think it's not very hard to get corporate interests in wealthy countries or even the public necessarily behind the idea of like decarbonization.

People like electric cars, even for non-environmental reasons. And so if it's just about moving from gas or electricity, that's pretty popular. I don't, like, any time the conversation shifts towards consuming less, fewer cars, less consumption overall, then I think, like, from a sort of like political standpoint, from a market standpoint, from a public and rich country standpoint, those solutions almost seem like completely off the table and unacceptable. So the idea is like, what about consuming, what about having fewer cars? What about making cars more sustainable so that they don't need to be replaced all the time?

Like, that's when I think the conversation gets, the rubber really meets the road and you have real tension. But I think, look, if there's going to be a major slowdown, as she said, the new constitution doesn't propose a ban on mining. But if you're going to change the way how water rights are allocated, if you're going to change the way, who can be involved in the permitting process, it's going to slow down the trajectory of new mining. I would suspect at a minimum. And then you get like this real situation where like, okay, there's at any given moment, there is less available. And people don't like the politics of consuming less are really tough. Yeah.

I think that's right. And economics, by the way, not well equipped for a world where you're telling people that they basically just have to consume less. Like the whole thing is about growing, growing and consuming more. Yeah. All right. Well, shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there.

This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Allaway. And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter at the stalwart. Follow our guest, Dr. Christina Doradoor on Twitter. She's at C. Riodore. Follow our producer, Carmen Rodriguez, at Carmen Arman.