Odd Lots - How to Move Freight Across the Icy Roads of Alaska

Episode Date: August 13, 2025

We're interested in trucking here at Odd Lots. It's one of those industries that can tell us a lot about the economy, both in terms of the short-term cycle, and also long-term structural trends. Of course, we know that the industry is prone to big boom and bust cycles. And Alaska itself -- driven so much by oil and natural resource extraction -- is also known for its boom and bust cycles. So on our trip there, we spoke with Josh Norum, the CEO of Sourdough Express, an Alaska based trucking company that's been around for over a century. We talked about how the business works, the history of the company, the current economic environment, tariffs, and the unique challenge (and opportunity) of moving freight in America's northernmost state. Read more:Uber Freight Founder Joins Autonomous Big Rig Startup WaabiDriverless Trucks Lumber Along With Safety-First Approach Only Bloomberg - Business News, Stock Markets, Finance, Breaking & World News subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at  bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlotsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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slash audio. That's vanguard.com slash audio. All investing is subject to risk vanguard marketing Corporation distributor. Thinking about buying the right home, but not sure when. What if you had the right design, the right lot and finishes at the right price? Not someday, but right now. Register at Democrathomes.com and get everything you want right now. Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthall. And I'm Tracy Allaway. So Tracy, we're here in a last. We are still here in Alaska. We are.

It's beautiful. It's stunning. And it's bright. It stays light until like 11 p.m. It's so bright. I couldn't believe it. It's amazing. Alaska in August.

It's the best. It's already such a fascinating place to me. What iconic industries will we be talking about while we're in Alaska, Joe? Well, there's many industries that we've hit over and over. Obviously, we like to talk to people in the trucking industry for all kinds of reasons. But also, like, one of the things that I'm aware of is that Alaska has its own distinct trucking culture. I think there was a reality TV show. about it, right?

Ice road truckers? Yeah, right? Wasn't that based here? Yes. I have questions about how realistic that actually is, but you are absolutely right that trucking in Alaska is the sort of well-known thing, maybe because of the reality TV show. But when you think about trucking in Alaska, you think like these crazy, like, mud-riddled roads and people having to cart these, like, huge payloads of, I don't know.

I heard it was mostly dirt in the summertime because people are doing a lot of road construction. But I don't know that much about it. I don't know that much about it. Trucking is a fun topic to cover, A, because it's just an interesting logistical industry in any environment. And then B, I don't think anyone has a better pulse on the economy at any given moment than people in trucking. So while we're here in Alaska, for all these obvious reasons, we've got to talk trucking. I think you have to come clean, Joe, and admit your secret dream to become an owner-operator working in Alaska.

I don't even know if that's possible. Well, let's find out. I'm really excited to say we really do have the perfect guest. We're going to be speaking with Josh Norm. He is the president and owner of Sourdough Express. Josh, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me. What does Sourdough Express mean and what is the company?

So Sourdough Express is a trucking company in Alaska. All of our assets are based in Alaska. My family bought it in the 1920s. It's been in existence since 1898. So we're celebrating 127 years this year. We are a all-service trucking company. So we were in their haul road, the ice roads up in Proto Bay. We haul between Anchorage and Fairbanks, which are the two main population centers in Alaska.

We also own a moving and storage company that focuses on DOD military members moving in and out of Alaska's military bases. What does sourdough actually mean in those contexts? Because I hear sourdough express and I think are you driving around huge loads of baked goods? Yeah, most people think that we're a bakery, but no, sourdough is basically a long-term Alaska. So somebody who's been here for many years or experienced winters here and really understand the culture of Alaska and understand what it takes to live here. So just one more question before we dig into the now. But you said your family bought this company in the 1920s and it's existed into the late 1800s. What was it actually in the early 1900s?

Because I assume you weren't, you know, it wasn't big trucks back then. Yeah. So most of the freight coming into Alaska then was gold mining and they were coming from Dawson City. And so the owner Bob Ellis ended up coming into Alaska and establishing in Fairbanks. And my family was working in and out of the company through that time and ended up purchasing it in 1923. And the first years was not trucks. It was dog sleds and sleds and, I mean, packers and walking the trails with the freight. And by the 1920s, the pictures show that there are trucks and makeshift roads that they're traveling on.

But most of it was not far. It was makeshift trails that they were getting. where they needed to go to their mining claims. And then as the community established in Fairbanks, we continued to grow and moved heavily into heating fuel and the different supplies that people needed to live in that climate. I already want to do this for like three hours. I know.

Right? Like, we could just like, let's just talk. Let's just start in 1920. Yeah, exactly. Let's just go decade by decade through the history. I'm already fascinated. All right, but let's just take it up to today. What are the main goods that you move, whether it's industrial, whatever it is?

What are the main things that are moved in? What are like the big routes? So 70% of our freight is oil field related. Okay. And it's going up to Proto Bay. And generally it's coming into the port of Anchorage and traveling up the road through Fairbanks to Proto Bay. A lot of it runs on the rail from Seattle area, Tacoma, up through the waterways to Alaska.

And then from there, they rail it to Fairbanks and we pick it up there and continue the journey to Prudo. We do a lot of stuff down south. to the Kinae and basically anywhere on the road system that needs freight, our trucks will travel. We do not leave Alaska because we feel that our assets are best used here for the freight that's local. So most of our freight that comes from outside is coming on the steamships that come into Alaska four times a week.

If I'm a customer, I mean, obviously this will vary by customer, but what are the decisions I'm making or what are the constraints when I'm deciding whether to send something by road, by rail versus a ferry. So there's generally three options that people look at. One is over the road up the Alcan Highway through Canada. And that one is generally the quickest because you can have a driver take it from point A to point B, do the checkpoints and make it into Alaska the quickest. The second fastest is steamship.

And so there's two companies that run two boats each. And they go from Tacoma to Anchorage twice a week. And both of them are sailing on Sundays and Tuesdays into Alaska. So I always tell people that if you want to get fresh groceries, go after the boats come because that's when everything shows up. There's also barge, which that travels more on a set schedule. And there's a few different barge companies in Alaska. And that's slower freight, but it's generally more economical to ship. So there's different options.

The ship from Tacoma to Alaska, how long does that take? Three days. Okay. You know, you said all your assets stay in Alaska. Like, how long are these routes? How long are the drivers on the road? Talk to us about those routes that they do and how tough that is. So as grueling as the roads are in Alaska,

the truckers actually have a pretty decent schedule compared to lower 48 truckers. All the routes can pretty much be a two-day route no matter which way you go. So the ones going from Fairbanks to Proto Bay. Those ones generally leave Fairbanks on a Monday. They go to Prudo Bay. They deliver their load, spend the night, and then come back on a Tuesday. So they're getting home every other night doing that route. That is better than a lot of drivers in the lower 48.

Yep, and most of them have done lower 48 freight and love that they're home that consistently. The other routes are generally Anchorage to Fairbanks, Fairbanks to Anchorage, and those ones you can do round-trip in a night. So those guys are home almost every night. Are there special skills you need to be a trucker in Alaska versus elsewhere or in the lower 48? Do I have to be really, really good at taking chains on and off my tires? You definitely chain up consistently in Alaska. the thing that we look for the most in our drivers is teachability, drivers that are willing to learn and learn from the people who've been doing it for years and years. There's a lot of things

that they teach you in truck driving school and down in Lower 48 that technically is the correct way to do something, but in the situations they're in, it can cause issues that you can't recover from. So there's a lot of small, technical. Give us some examples. What are some things that people encounter here that they don't encounter elsewhere? Sure. One of the big things is running for hills A lot of times in the States, people, they'll run and get speed up for hills. But in Prudow, on the road there, it's almost critical that you run for hills. What does that mean? You have to speed up to go over them.

So you know you're coming up on a hill and everyone has callouts. So everyone has rados in their truck and they're calling out, truck whatever's coming up the hill. And so everyone waits at the top. And basically you just get speed and then your momentum carries you as far as you can before you start downshifting. And it's critical in the wintertime because if you start slow, you will never gain traction. So you will be stopping and chaining at every single hill where there's generally a few hills you chain consistently. If you run at them, you can usually momentum up and over a lot of them without having to do that. So it saves a significant amount of time and energy for the driver having to get out.

And chaining up on that road is not a fun experience. Generally, it's 20, 30 below. and once you get up further north, it's windy and it's dark. It's not a pleasant experience. So any tricks like that that you can incorporate really help their time and their quality of life. You mentioned the radio just then, and this was going to be one of my questions, which is like, are people able to use the radio out here? And are they on, like citizens band or something else? They're on CB radios just like anywhere.

And they have channels that they run on. A lot of trucks have, we call them the big radio, which goes further. and it's usually like more of a chatting station, but on the CBs is there a lot of chatting just because you're in Alaska and you're sort of on your own on a big highway or something? There's a lot of chatting, but everyone knows each other. So generally on that road, if you go up in one day and you come back in a day, you're passing all your friends either way at some point. So they all know each other by their truck what they look like.

They can tell on the radio. So a lot of it's just them checking with each other. How's your trip going? Beautiful day. man, that hill was icy. Whatever it is, hey, there's caribou ahead. A lot of it's just banter back and forth between friends on the radio that help each other out.

The Hall Road is very special in the sense that if a truck is pulled over and has an issue, everybody's going to stop. Oh, that's cool. Nobody's going to drive by him without checking to make sure he's doing okay and that he doesn't need help. So that's a pretty special thing that you don't see everywhere. I know there's some places that people will stop and help, But in Alaska, it's almost critical that you do because somebody could be in trouble. Someone told me that, like, used cars are more expensive in Alaska.

I don't know if that's true. Actually, I haven't gone to verify that. But I'm just curious about, like, the cost of, like, the physical, yeah, your physical assets. Like, is there a significant price gap between just what you pay for any sort of piece, equipment, whether it's the truck or some part or et cetera in Alaska versus the rest of the country? Sometimes it's hard to compare because we don't have a sales tax. tax. Oh. So without a sales tax, a lot of times that reduces the price right back to where the cost of getting the goods here is offset by not having that sales tax. So I can honestly say that

I have not noticed a huge difference in prices between food used cars. A lot of the stuff that we ship up business-wise, like big trucks and that we are dealing with the shipping ourselves. So depending how we want to drive it or what we want to do with that, we're paying the cost at manufacturer and hauling it up. What about fuel costs? Because I guess there's two things. There's the price of fuel out here. And I know there's a big, you know, oil industry, but I don't know if you actually refine that much. So I don't know what gas prices actually look like. But then secondly, I imagine when you're out in, you know, middle of nowhere, Alaska, there probably aren't that many places to have fuel stops for. And I guess maybe you have to be more strategic about where you're stopping to refuel. Yeah, so I would say fuel is definitely more expensive than, say, in Texas or the place where they have big refineries. We do refine some fuel in Alaska, not a lot. We have the pipeline going right through the middle, and a lot of it just goes south and gone.

But they do refine some. I don't think we save on price by doing that. It's just more of an efficiency thing. Fuel stops are extremely important. So our big trucks that go to Proto Bay have 300-gallon tanks on them, and there's only one gas station between leaving Fairbanks. and Prudeau Bay, which is almost 500 miles. Wow. So generally...

You don't want to run out of fuel. You don't want to run out of fuel. There's not a lot of options. And people are used to driving in the country and they see farms and they see, okay, there's a truck stop. And when you leave these communities like Fairbanks and you go north, there's nothing. It's just woods. And there's no one to help except the other truckers on the road. You'll see the tourists and the hunters.

But there's nowhere to stop. So drivers, when they pull over, they're stopping on the side of like a pull off, just a little spot to stop, but there's no bathrooms or showers or anything like that. So planning your trips and where you get fuel, you can get fuel in Prudau, but it's more than double the cost of fuel in Fairbanks. So you definitely plan your fuel and carry a lot of it. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard. To all the financial advisors listening, let's talk bonds for a minute. Capturing value and fixed income is not easy. Bond markets are massive, murky, and let's be real. Lots of firms throw a couple flashy funds your way and call it a day.

But not Vanguard. At Vanguard, institutional quality isn't a tagline. It's a commitment to your clients. We're talking top-grade products across the board of over 80 bond funds, actively managed by a 200-person global squad of sector specialists, analysts, and traders. These folks live and breathe fixed income. So if you're looking to give your clients consistent results year in and year out, go see the record for yourself at vanguard.com slash audio.

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Context changes constantly. And now Bloomberg is the place to stay on top. of it all. Hi, I'm David Gura. Join us every Saturday and Sunday for the new Bloomberg this weekend. I'm Christina Ruffini. We'll bring you the latest headlines, in-depth analysis, and big interviews, all the stories that hit home on your days off. And I'm Lisa Mateo. Watch and listen to Bloomberg this weekend for thoughtful, enlightening conversations about business, lifestyle, people, and culture. On Saturday mornings, we put the past week's events into context, examining what happened in the markets and the world. That on Sundays, we speak with journalists, columnists, and

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How's business right now? Or how does it compare to August 5th, 2024? Business has been very good and very steady. A few of the different oil companies in Alaska have put a lot of investment and a lot of bets on the future and investing. Chris Wright, the energy secretary, was, I think, in Alaska not too long ago, like Towing. We had a big delegation come up here and they went to Prudeau to pumping the gas line up, the potential gas line that they're trying to get approved.

But the overall investment in the oil. fields and the downstream effects of that of people coming up to work those and the good jobs it creates that then trickles through the rest of the economy so a lot of our business is also groceries and lumber and housing supplies and basically anything that a worker on the slope that we also provide drilling pipe to they still need everything back at their house when they're on their off shifts so the overall last economy has been been healthy there hasn't been a huge growth i don't think, but I think it's replaced a lot of what was on a downward slide five, 10 years ago. So one of the things we've learned from doing all these trucking episodes over and over again

is that it is an extremely cyclical industry. And supposedly a lot of that, at least in the lower 48, is because there are really low barriers to entry. So if people see freight rates start to go up, they think, oh, I'm going to get a truck, I'm going to get my CDL, and then I'm going to make the big money driving this truck around. I'm curious in Alaska, Is it the same way? Do you see those sorts of boom bust cycles where you have lots of new entrance flood the market and then freight rates start going down and people start going out of business and then eventually you go through the cycle once again? I would say Alaska's entire economy is that exact situation.

And so in trucking, we have company drivers and most companies that are at scale that we're at have company drivers, but they also use owner operators or they use contractors, which they hire on for the busy times. And those contractors over the years have become very flexible. So when times are not good, a lot of times they'll head south. When you need them again, you call them and they'll come back up and start hauling again. So I would say that people do buy more trucks and try to start their businesses during the really good times. But a lot of examples of truckers who've done that and not been successful when it does decline, it seems like we've done it enough that the truckers are getting more savvy to know how much they can spend. And

Instead of buying five trucks, they buy one truck or two trucks, and they keep those trucks busy with the flexibility of going out and finding other work down in the States. Because as an owner-operator, you can go out of business very quickly if there's a few slow months. How is Sourdough Express state in business so long? Like, you know, at this point, I'm sure you, have there been any near-death experiences in the last century or any close calls in there? Yeah, so through the generations, I'm fifth-generation owner of Sourdough, and my

business partner is my mother and she's a CPA and been the CFO for Saurado for 30 years and she's extremely conservative. So she's told me stories of the history of the generations. And her ability to save and plan for the future for those bad times, I think is why we've been so successful. When the big shiny loads are sitting out there, we don't always run at them. We let those go and we continue servicing our customers that have been dedicated customers and reliable freight for years. And with her management of those assets, and over time, I think it's been very successful. But I can tell you that we're in a minority in that sense where there's been a lot of trucking companies come and go over the years that we've seen come up and go down.

And I would say her ability to plan has been the biggest asset to sour in the last 30 years. What would be a shiny load in that context? Is it like, you know, some oil company needs something like right some crucial component for a pipeline or something and they need it right now and so they're paying loads of money that could be an example i mean it's just anybody who needs something very quickly that requires a lot of assets and so sometimes they they dangle that out there and trucking companies well i'll go buy 10 trucks and i can do that 2015 was a good example of where the oil companies had come and said hey we're going to produce all this oil and there's a good chance for growth we ended up everyone purchased trucks and got ready and then the oil price has crashed and

And so no fault to them, but they couldn't sell oil at a profit. And so they had to pull back the loads. And coming back around, I think everyone was a little more cautious, but we've also learned with them as a group that works together because if we're not successful, they're not successful and vice versa, that we're able to plan better and adjust how the loads work to make sure that the freight gets there without that risk of the boom bust. So we've done a lot better job, I'd say, in the last 10. years of planning those cycles and how that's going to work.

Joe, I feel like I have to say that we are in Anchorage. And so listeners might hear the train going by just that. It's very atmospheric. Yeah, it's very atmospheric. And actually sort of walking through Anchorage, you turn your head and you see like ports facilities and you see oil facilities right there. And so it does feel like just walking through here. We are in this hub of logistics industry and commerce.

And you can certainly hear it. You know what I'm curious about, how does a family keep people at Alaska? Because I have to imagine that a lot of young people generally speaking, it's like, yeah, some tough, dark, long winters and maybe get attracted to like, it might be nice to move to Los Angeles or something like that sometime. Talk to us about, like, the culture of like who state, the type of people who stay in Alaska over generations. Yeah, no, I think that a lot of people have been here for a long time.

They like what Alaska has to offer outside of the cities. So a lot of people you talk to have cabins and have places they go and spend time and they build those family units that are strong and based on these experiences they've had together. A lot of people when they graduate high school do go out to the states and they go to college and they get their degree. And my sister's a good example where she went out and she was gone for 10 years and decided that she could be an high doctor in Alaska just as easy as she could be in Oklahoma. So she ended up moving back with her family more so to just get that family unit that she had been looking for. I think that a lot of people like the community that it has to offer and for some reason the misery of living here in the winter, I think brings people together too. I'm not quite sure on that, but I've been here for a while. Well, in the summer, it is very, very nice, I have to say. I haven't seen it in the winter. But right now it's beautiful. You know, at the flip side of 1130.

Yeah, I know. I know. I know. Look, look. I lived in London and it getting dark at 3 p.m. in December was bad enough. I imagine it's even worse here. Okay, this is my moment to just ask, can we get some ice road trucker type stories? Like, tell us some of the harriest moments when, you know, you or one of your drivers is on like the Dalton Highway or something like that. So I've driven the road twice in my career. I had got my CDO when I was 19 and I mostly worked on the moving side of our company, moving and storage. And so I never did the ice road long term, but I did drive a couple loads up there and got to experience what that was like as a driver. The benefit to our trucks now is we have cameras in every truck.

So when stuff does happen, we have very good vantage points of exactly what that is. And it was probably four years ago, the best camera footage I've seen is we were climbing Attigan Pass, which is on the Dullton. And out of the corner of the camera, it was night, but you could see snow starting to come. And an entire avalanche came down and pushed the truck up against the guardrail. And when everything came still, the snow was over the front. And he was just sitting in an avalanche that then he had to wait for the loaders to come up and dig him back out. We've had a few of those avalanche type stories.

That was the biggest one. We consistently see wildlife every day. You can see caribou or wolves or bears on the road and moving out in front of the trucks. Do wildlife pose a danger? You talk about having to chain the tires. When you're out, like, is there any risk? You're just like when you're out of the cab, is there any danger to the driver in those situations? Yes.

And they've gotten smarter over the years back in the 70s. and 80s when it was kind of the good old days. They used to feed a lot of the animals, I think, and the animals got very used to that. And we have a lot of pictures of bears standing up to windows and taking food back in the 70s. Drivers have gotten a lot smarter since then. They don't do that anymore. About inviting the wildlife to the trucks. And there are notices posted.

Those were the good old days worth that. The bear's reading out of your truck and feed the bear. This is what they took from us. Yeah. But they do post notices and you'll hear on the Facebook groups and on the communications that, hey, there's a bear at milepost 212. Make sure you watch out when you're chaining up. I mean, there are situations.

They had a wolf problem last year at one of the construction sites that the pilot cars had to really be paying attention to. And so there are risks to that. Generally, it's not an issue. But over the years, there definitely have been stories. You know, you mentioned cameras in the trucks. And this reminded me. But is there technology that people are using out in Alaska that might mitigate some of the Alaska-specific dangers. Do you have better weather forecasting technology or do you pay more attention to the

forecast? Like, are there specific things you're doing with tech that might make it easier for your drivers? I would say Facebook groups. Oh, say more about that. This is really interesting. Yeah. So Facebook groups is just an example, but text threads and the different communication between the drivers that are traveling it every day, they all have their groups of guys they know and hey, I just went through this milepost. It was really bad. You might as well stay home until tomorrow. it'll get better by tomorrow. And so their feedback is way quicker than the weather, way more accurate. And their ability to get that through the road is uncanny.

So I think that camaraderie between the drivers is really what keeps that road safer. So I take it to our wildfires this summer in Alaska. This summer was a drive beginning of the summer. And there were a few that were very close to the road. There's two ways to get from anchors to Fairbanks. And so we had to send our trucks to longer route this summer for, about a week because they had so much activity next to the road. And it wasn't a reliable route to send the trucks to get stuff through. So we had to deal with that over the years, a few years ago,

south of Anchorage, there was a lot of them that it was delaying the drivers on a nightly basis waiting for openings to get through. Oh, yeah. On this topic, is there seasonality in this business in the sense that some routes are only open at certain times of the year? So I heard, you know, for instance, some roads have to be frozen for the trucks to go over them. And then I also heard that there are some trucks going over like actual frozen water. So you have to wait for the water to freeze before you can actually get to the specific part of the world. So the big ones that everyone talks about are the ice roads up in Proto Bay. And most of those are not actually frozen lakes or rivers that they're crossing. There are some, but most of it is they're building up the ice to

protect the tundra so that when the ice does melt, there's no damage to the tundra. So if you fly over four-wheeler trails that in the summer you can see where all those vehicles went but if you go up to prudow and fly over the oil fields you can see no trace of trucks because they build those roads up so strong they do go out on the ice in certain areas but it's very controlled and very measured there was a Netflix movie about that I think a few years ago it was like it was not a reality show about protecting tundras or about icebrush just about like those like the literal like going over the frozen water and stuff like that now I I forgot about it. It was really stressful.

They always, in the shows and the reality shows, they obviously dramatic. They over, they over bake a little bit. They over bake a little bit and nobody would go on them if they were that unsafe. Yeah. Yeah, the movie made it look like it was a 50% chance. And then it gave a time of like making it. The volume of trucks that travel on it and they're, they have dedicated crews to just maintain those roads on a daily basis. It's, it's not something that anybody's willing to risk. So something I'm curious about is, are the tariffs showing up in any way that you notice in your business? Have they had an effect on anything? Maybe even with Alaska, Canada trade or anything like that?

We haven't seen significant ones yet in our pricing other than we pre-ordered a lot of stuff with the anticipation of tariffs that might not have come. And when you say pre-order stuff, is this like equipment or parts or something like that? Mostly parts. So parts that were specifically tire chains. We ordered a lot of tire chains, a lot of gear that was related. So you're still sitting on inventory from some of this that you've pre-ordered. We're prepared for winter.

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decision is always better than no decision. Listen to new episodes every other Monday. Follow leaders with Francine Lacroix wherever you get your podcasts. What separates good leaders from transformational ones? I'm Jessica Chen and in season two of Leading By Example, we'll sit down with executives like Grace Chen of Bertie Gray to find out. It's important to understand where you spike, but also really acknowledge where you don't and find people who can fill those gaps. Listen to leading by example, executives making an impact on the IHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's the big constraint on your business now? Like if you had to name a single frustration that is stopping you from growing further, what would it be? You know, whether it's labor or, I don't know, money available for capital investment, regulate,

what would it be? I would say it's probably the availability of work. So the more that they open up the oil fields and allow us to produce on them, I think that's going to be the biggest factor to growing all of the businesses in Alaska. They've proven over and over again that they can continually do it safely and that we're one of the cleanest producers in the world. And so as they open those up and responsibly start producing them, that's what grows the Alaska economy is when we construct those sites and then

produce over the long term. The oil pipeline, since it was built, has declined in volume that has traveled through it. And for the last couple years is the first time it's upticked again. So that's a very positive thing for Alaska because it's kind of a lifeline of almost all Alaskans is the oil and gas industry. DoD is not very far behind with the Department of Defense spending, but for what really drives Alaska, it's oil and gas development. So you said DOD just then and I noticed at the airport there was like a military lounge. So I guess like military is a big presence here, right? Like what exactly is going on? I should know this already, but like what is happening here? Looking over the water at the Russians. Yeah, no, I get that. But like what exactly is

here? So in Anchorage, which is where we're sitting now, there's a joint air force and army base that's fairly large. If you go north the Fairbanks, there's an Air Force base and an Army base separated, but also very large, that that Air Force Base is used for all the training for a lot of our allies. They come there in the summer and you see fighter jets parked all over and they're doing war games. Outside of Fairbanks, they have Fort Greeley, which is missile silos in there. It's more of a protection base. And then on the other side, they have clear Air Force Base, which is more of a identification base where they're able to monitor closer to our enemies. All right. I'm going to I'm asking a hot button question that I know divides much of the freight community, but is there

a truck driver shortage? I don't think there's a truck driver shortage. I think that there is an industry that has put truck drivers in positions over the years where maybe some of them have left their profession or told their kids not to join the profession. I think there's a lot of quality truck drivers out of there. I think there's a lot of companies who don't treat their truck drivers the way they should be treated.

And so that they have a shortage of employees more, to do with their policies and the requirements of what they expect of their drivers rather than what they give back to them. So Asaradu, we've always tried to treat our drivers as best as possible. We give them schedules that are family friendly and we understand that life happens. And so I think that's been a huge benefit for us and not just taking drivers for granted that they just keep coming through the door to really develop your drivers and make them the high quality drivers that they can be.

I have another hot button question. So you know, your family's owned. It's going to be self-driving ice trucks? In 100 years, your family's had the company about 100 years. Would there be human drivers in 100 years? I have no opinion on that one. I think that would be a very hard road to do an actual self-driving truck. I think if they came up with some sort of rail system or something, they could potentially do it.

But it would require an extreme amount of investment to set that up just because the train is so extreme. that road does not have lines on it. The road's shoulders change every mile. The snow, how they plow it, changes every year. So I think it would be an extremely, extremely hard road to send a truck driving itself up. Have you seen any effect yet from labor-related policies yet from this administration that in any way is, like, affected the business for better or worth? No, we have now. If you're in a bar in Fairbanks or wherever with a bunch of other sourdowers, what do you?

Sour dough people? Sour dough. Sourdough? Sourdough? Sourdough. Sourdows and trucking buddies. What's getting you guys riled up? Like, what does the topic of conversation do, jure?

Most of it goes from stories on the road back to family camping trips and hunting trips and fishing trips and what they're doing on their off time. The trucking industry in Alaska pays very well. So most of the drivers have the ability to buy snow machines and four-wheelers and go out and experience what Alaska actually has to offer beside city life. and most truckers are very independent and they like that lifestyle. So I would say it's mostly comparing camping stories.

If there's someone who's just like a young guy looking for direction in the world, if they come to Alaska and can they probably find a job eventually if they go through the CDL training, etc.? Yeah. Is this someone in the lower 48 looking for direction, looking for maybe some adventure and excitement and decent pay and that sort of lifestyle?

Like is there demand for it that right now? So we've learned over the year, that a lot of people have this dream of Alaska. Yeah. And until they come here, they don't quite realize what that dream is. They just know that it's this vast place that they want to go and spend time. So we always recommend people come and visit it, not in the summer, but in the winter to make sure it's a place that they want to be. And then we have a lot of very good truck driving school.

So if they come without a CDL in three weeks, you can get your CDL. And there is a lot of opportunity locally in the different cities to learn to be a truck driver. And so patience is the biggest one. and people knowing that the first day they get in that truck, they're not driving the haul road. They're going to be delivering produce to Fred Myers, or they're going to be delivering lumber to Spinnard-Biller supply. It's patience and then also the, like I had mentioned earlier,

the willingness to learn from the experienced drivers who have done it for years and years. And drivers are very generous with their knowledge as long as you're willing to learn it. As soon as you start pushing back, most drivers don't want to teach you anymore because it's not worth their time. So there's definitely an opportunity to grow your career and make a life in Alaska.

You just have to be patient. I'm going to ask the flip side of Joe's question, which is, is there anything that people are underestimating about the Alaskan truck driver experience or something that people might have misconceptions about when they're starry-eyed, youthful would-be Alaska truck drivers? So if you're talking ice road trucking, which is what the show is based on, I think that the show romanticized it in the way that it's kind of this very fun and entertaining thing, but the road from Fairbanks to Peru is 12 hours long and you're by yourself the whole time. So I think a lot of people underestimate how much time they spend alone. And you're not sleeping at truck stops. You're not

seeing people in person. You're talking to them on the radio, but you're not getting that interaction that a lot of truckers in the States are used to walking in. You have one spot, cold foot Alaska, to stop and see people, but I think the, the lonesomeness of it and then coming back to the terminal and going home to a, in the winter, it's very dark. I think the darkness is what really drives a lot of people back out of Alaska. The cold's not fun either, but you can turn the heater on, you can put a jacket on. Actually, I did have one more question related to this, which is you mentioned, it's like, you're truly in the middle of nowhere. There aren't gas stations anywhere. If there is some sort of an accident or something like that, what are the sort of like state level

infrastructure for like emergency response out there? Like, is there a helicopter that like? Helicopter. Yeah. State troopers have helicopters that they will fly out. The problem with helicopters is you got to be able to land at somewhere. And a lot of the roads not wide enough or in a position where they can land. So generally the first responders are other truckers.

And a lot of them have training on what to do with an injured driver or or something like that you can call the different towns on either side of it, but I mean, it could be eight hours before you see an actual ambulance or something. So a lot of it is very remote and requires the help of your fellow truck driver. And weather restricted too, right? Like if you're in trouble because there's a storm, then a helicopter is not going to be able to get to you. This year the road washed out too, but it wasn't for very long. But they've had years where the road gets shut down by avalanches and there's a bunch of drivers stacked up and the road's too small to turn around. So you're stuck facing the avalanche and it's it's been a couple of days or they

send fuel trucks out to go fuel the truck so they can continue running and and staying safe and hand out food. But most of the drivers carry a few days. Do the drivers create like a little camp for themselves? I have this vision in my head of like a group of like 12 truck drivers just like getting along in the wilderness while they wait for the avalanche to get cleared. I definitely think there's probably a lot of stuff that they don't feed back to us. I don't know if a campfire is But Josh Noron, president and owner of Sourdough Express. Thank you so much for coming on Lodlop. Yeah, thank you guys for having me.

Tracy, that was a lot of fun. You know, it's funny thinking about, like, you know, obviously Alaska as, you know, a literal gold rush place. And then this idea that the whole state is a big boom bus cycle, right? Because if you start with gold mining and then you're very levered to the oil industry. Yeah. So it's like trucking is like truly the tail end of the whip, it sounds like. cyclical squared. Yeah, cyclical squared. Yeah, right. The other thing I was thinking about is, you know, in terms of new technology, Josh mentioned the cameras, but also you got to imagine something like Starlink would have a big impact on drivers' quality of life. If you're driving out where there's no cell service, maybe if you have Starlink, you finally have a chance to download a Netflix movie or download all your favorite podcasts so you don't feel so lonely on the road. But then, you know, he mentioned Facebook as just, a messaging network for the drivers. And this is something that I really didn't get until like two

years ago when I got the house in rural Connecticut, which is like Facebook is essential in rural parts of the country. Like that is actually the local network. And that's where when people see a bear coming through, you know, the neighborhood. That's where people post it. Yeah. Or, you know, maybe your like neighbor will text you directly or something. But like all that local info is going on Facebook. That is really interesting. Also, like, it's not the first time that trucking specifically is still an industry that runs on, like, sort of group chats and WhatsApp pages. Yeah, WhatsApp channels, et cetera, like that. Even for just... Yeah, the message boards. Like, that technology, that power is, like, clearly still, like,

deeply embedded into, like, sort of core industrial, you know, the core, it's core infrastructure for what makes the economy run? Well, all of logistics, right? It's Sven in the port in Europe or whatever. Yeah, right, right. And yet, I mean, as you noted, it really feels like this is a logistics hub. The listeners can literally hear it while we're doing the episode. Oh, yeah.

I mean, when you get to the airport, you can already realize it's a logistics hub. Like, I know our producer, Dash was talking about people carrying fish through the airport. There's the military lounges in the airport because you have the big numbers. military air bases. And when you're coming in, you can see all that infrastructure. So you do get that sense. Yeah. All right. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Oddlots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Jill Wisenthall. You can follow me at the stalwart. Next time you're shipping oil industry equipment, call up Josh at the Sourdough Express. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez,

at Carmen Armand, Dashel Bennett at Dashbot and Kale Brooks at Kail Brooks. For more OddLod's content, go to Bloomberg.com slash oddlots, where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes, and you can chat about these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.g.g. slash oddlots. And if you enjoy Oddlots, if you like it when Joe and I go to Alaska, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes, absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there.

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