Odd Lots - The Booming Business of Chinese Peptides

Episode Date: December 19, 2025

You probably already know someone doing peptides — the amino acids that form the basis of popular new drug treatments like Ozempic and Wegovy. Today there are peptides meant to help with everything from weight loss, to cellular regeneration, to improved eye contact while talking. In San Francisco, there are even organized “peptide raves.” Yet most of these underground peptides haven’t been approved by regulators for human use in the US. So where are they coming from? And how do they get here? On this episode, we speak with two guests who have seen this growing subculture up close, Jasmine Sun, an independent writer covering AI and San Francisco culture, as well as Zak David, managing partner of Pirsek Technologies, which runs a peptide supplier, Peptide Partners. Subscribe to the Odd Lots NewsletterJoin the conversation: discord.gg/oddlotsSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Wisenth. Joe, I have a present for you. Okay. I'm excited. It's December 10th. Yeah. Christmas is coming up. Christmas present, cool.

Hanuk a present. Here you go. Let me see what is this. Okay. Quality, it's from Quality Sprays. dot com and it's a wait that seems like an illegal drug it says oxytocin it's not illegal it's not illegal i got it off amazon for like 60 bucks oxytocin that sounds illegal it's not okay do you know what oxytocin actually is i'm sure it's really bad it's a peptide okay i didn't know that yeah i actually

don't even know what a peptide is i've been hearing this word peptide i don't know what classification of chemical or molecule chain or anything a peptide is But I've been hearing about this word peptide more and more. This is important. Thank you. You're actually going to give this to me, or is this just a prop that I have to give up? It's just a prop. Okay. And I just said that, that it's yours, but it's actually mine.

Okay, peptides. Peptides are the P in GLP ones that are so popular. I think I do it. Yeah, I think I knew GOP1s is a peptide, but I still don't. What is it? Anyway. All right. The reason you're hearing about it a lot is because a lot of people seem to be using them in various ways.

And there are all these different types of peptides that supposedly do different things for the body. This one apparently makes you better at eye contact and more sociable. You know, it's really funny back when I was in, I could have used this like 25 years ago. When I was younger, like in college, it didn't happen very often, but I occasionally went on a few dates. And very rare, very rare. I'm not going to say anything. Very rare occurrence. But one of the things I would notice is if I was out on a date and like the girl would start like messing with like her hair a little bit.

She likes you. No. And she's like, is there something wrong with my hair? Because you keep looking like three inches above my eyes. And I'm like, no, I'm just very awkward. It's very difficult for me. And she's like, oh, I was like, it's very awkward for me. I'm not very good at eye contact and so forth.

And so I just assumed it was something in my hair that I was like trying to get out. And I was like, no, I'm sorry. I'm just like that. This happened to you more than once? Yes. So I could have really used a chemical that would solve the eye contact problem. Now I've grown up. I've grown out of it. I can look someone in the eye now. I will say I have tested it. I'm not entirely convinced of its effects. But, you know, in the name of science for all thoughts, I have been a guinea pig. So we know GLP ones, whatever they're called, Wigovi and all those, those are good for weight loss. And we know it's almost a miracle drug, right? Everyone's an incredible. But in theory, there are other peptides out there that could.

be equivalently miraculous. We just don't really know about them and maybe they're not sort of medicinalized the way that the weight loss ones are. Yeah. And also not distributed the same way as GLP ones in America. And we're going to get all into that because it's actually a really interesting topic, both culturally and from a supply chain perspective. And we love supply chains. We love supply chains. All right. So for this particular topic, we're actually going to have two guests. Great. Because it's so interesting. And I got so into the peptide world. Our first guest is Jasmine's son. She has an independent writer covering AI and San Francisco culture. And this is definitely a San Francisco cultural thing. So Jasmine, you are truly the perfect guest. Thank you so much

for coming on all thoughts. I am so excited to be here. So first of all, why don't you just tell us a little bit more about what peptides actually are and how they first came onto your radar screen. Right. So peptides are basically short chains of amino acids. They are the building blocks proteins. There are peptides that are naturally occurring in the human body. So for example, oxytocin like you have right there, we produce it during pregnancy when you hug somebody, hug your partner, hug your family member. But there are also synthetic peptides that are manufactured in labs or people can take these peptides that already exist in the human body. and inject extra of it if your body, say, doesn't produce enough.

So insulin, for example, is an example of a peptide that's been used, obviously, to treat diabetics for a very long time. So peptides are actually a very broad class of drugs, but I think the interest in more experimental peptides and within biohacking communities and things like that has really exploded in recent years, I would trace it to basically the boom in GLP1 use. A lot of folks who I spoke to over the past few weeks who have been experienced. experimenting with peptides and injecting them themselves, first started getting comfortable with even the idea of injections, which were previously seen as a bit intense for people. Yeah, you're injecting yourself with drugs. That has certain connotations.

Right. But I think that GLP1s in Azempec and Wagovi were what really popularized it and made people comfortable. So it first came on my radar, aside from the GLP story, because I started seeing tweets that I'm sure you guys have seen to all over SFTac Twitter about how everybody, has a Chinese peptide dealer now. I thought this was kind of a joke until I started mentioning it in conversations. And I realized that my friends were on Chinese peptides. They were like, wait, Jasmine, are you not on these? They're amazing. I got to get you on these peptides. I got a a dealer. I got my guy. And I'm like, what are you on about? And I think the first one that I heard about people using, which is the most popular that I have since heard is read a true tide, which is what some people call a GLP3. So basically, GLP-1s are through the FDA process, people,

or something like 12% of Americans, depending on what survey you look at are using them. But there are now next generation weight loss drugs that work on not just the GLP-1 receptors, but also the GIP-Rceptors and the glucagon receptors to encourage even faster weight loss. And these GLP-3s, like Red of Trutide, are still in Phase 2 clinical trials. But because people have been watching this space, they're seeing really good results in those clinical trials, some folks have thought, okay, let me go straight to the source. I'm going to find a Chinese manufacturer that makes Reda True Tide for cheap, and I will import them at a low cost of maybe 100 bucks, 200 bucks a month from one of these gray market suppliers and using myself for weight loss for one fifth of the cost that I was getting my prescription Ozempic at or something like that. I promised you this was a supply chain episode.

Yeah, no, that's all right. Obviously, you want to talk more about peptides. That's what we're here talking about. But I actually just want to back up one second because you're a San Francisco culture reporter, among other. things and you write great stuff about AI and communication, all that stuff. One thing I think about a lot these days is that we all know that people in San Francisco really have a very big influence on all of our lives, right? Because they design the digital products that essentially constitute what makes modern living distinct. But one thing I feel like, and I struggle around my

articulate this, all of these other things that are part of the contemporary San Francisco lifestyle, whether it's sort of like believing in AI doom scenarios, et cetera. It's like weird cults that they form. Like to some extent, this is such an important beat that you're on because we are all living in the shadows of what has going on in these people's brains, right? Like these ideas that they think about,

body hacking and so forth, they become the sort of like consumer products and so forth that everyone just sort of uses without ever thinking about like some of the third. philosophical gestalt behind it all. Totally. I mean, I think that's totally right. That's why I love the San Francisco B. I sort of collapsed it too. Like honestly, I just report on San Francisco, whether that is, you know, in the beginning of 2025, a lot of it was about the young tech, right? And why did that happen?

It's about AI, all the weird sub-ideologies from AI doom to the successionists who actually think that AI has a moral duty to replace the human species because they're superior to us. There are all these weird strains of thought. And I think SF, especially this year, increasingly prides itself on sort of being the place where the future comes first. They've sort of re-embrace that identity of like, we're going to have funerals for AI models that we miss. We are embracing robotaxi abundance with Tesla robotaxies and Zookses and Waymo's. And we're going to be the ones to trial this stuff first. I'm going to a peptide rave this Saturday with a cyberpunk dress code.

It sounds very San Francisco. It's very San Francisco. There are underground robot fights that I'm sure you guys have seen videos of. But I think San Francisco is really leaning into its identity these days of we are kind of going to be the place that is not sort of suffering under the regulatory decelerationist burden that's plaguing the rest of the Western world. And we're going to embrace the frontier. And I think peptides are part of that. It's a signaling thing as much as a health thing. Well, okay, speaking of the tech community, is it true that something like oxytocin, it actually improves your eye contact?

And the way I heard it was this could be helpful for people. people who are in tech and maybe aren't that sociable. Oh, my God. Yeah, so the oxytocin is the only peptide that I've personally tried. I think I first heard about it because Will DePue, who's like a young AI researcher, Open AI, tweeted about it as I think nasal oxytocin is going to be ozempic for autism, which is an incredible line. Like what the hell is this?

And it's been tested on people with Asperger's to help improve again, those feelings of social connection, empathy warmth that comes as a nasal spray you can get for 50 bucks, 60 bucks off Amazon or something. So I also like you, Tracy, when I tried it, I didn't think it worked. But my friends did insist that I was a little bit friendlier than I normally am. And I was in fact making more eye contact. So we're going to have to do some experiments here at all thoughts and just have a bunch of conversations where we're on and off the oxytocin and see what happens. Yeah. We got to. I really, I really could have used that in college for sure. So there's all kinds of ones, right? So, okay, JLP1's weight loss. This one supposedly helps you with eye

contact and connection. What are some of the other things that people are using peptides for? So aside from the GLP ones and the GLP3s, which are the most popular, there are all sorts of peptides. They are a really, really broad class of chemical. So the most popular other than that is BPC 157, which supposedly helps with muscle healing and regeneration. So after a really hard workout, that one has been experimented with in bodybuilding communities for many years. So there's all these crazy bodybuilding forums where people are playing with this stuff and human growth hormone and things like that. There is melanotan, which supposedly increases melanin production in the skin. So I talked to a founder, a CEO of a unicorn logistics company who told me that his first peptide was melanotan because he hated being a ginger.

He had always wanted to stop being a ginger. So he cured it by taking this thing that increases your melanin production and makes you tanner. Another person described it to me as the hot, horny, and tan peptide. So that one for those who aren't getting enough sunlight shut in an office, maybe that's your pick. There is epithelon, which folks have credited with increasing, improving. their sleep, their CMAX, which people believe helps with their anxiety. To be clear, most of the peptides, aside from the GLPs, have not been in any human trials whatsoever. So a lot of this sort of comes from anecdotal evidence in people experimenting rather than from like FDA approved

or like RCTs. And some of these, you know, only have animal trials or cell culture in vitro tests. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about this actually, because my impression is peptides, like, there's not much profit to be made from them for the pharma companies. And so it's just not worth it to them to actually test on humans. And yet, they're still commercially available. That is one of the stories I heard because, you know, I asked, well, GLP-1s have been so profitable. So, like, why aren't people trying to push through FDA trials these other peptides that people have been crediting with, like, transformative health improvements or whatever? And the story I heard, is that because peptides are these very small, very basic chains, they're too commoditized, basically,

like at the point where these Chinese factories are able to, without a ton of, like, extremely advanced scientific knowledge, be able to manufacture them on mass. No company is going to want to invest, like, $100 million, a billion dollars in getting it through the, like, excruciating FDA trial process. And so that sort of left peptides in this great market environment where people are saying, like, okay, like I might as well go import the stuff from China, maybe get a purity tested myself. It's going to cost a few hundred dollars in total. And let's just see.

Yeah, let's talk about that because I don't love the idea of sticking myself with needles. But then also I don't love the idea of like sticking myself with needles for some random thing that came from a factory. Or having a dealer, right? Yeah, like a whole thing. My thing. And I want to get into the legal aspects of all this as well. But yeah, talk to us about, I guess, just the comfort that people have with, frankly, injecting themselves with chemicals that they probably have no idea what's in there, can't verify it, or have no idea how the quality of the lab in China that they're getting them from. Yeah. I mean, so I've interviewed probably a dozen plus people, peptide users in and around the tech community over the past few weeks. And I will say that almost everyone I spoke to, I'd ask like, hey, are you scared? Are you worried? Did you have to like get over a mental hump with a stuff? And most of them would tell me, you know what?

Like I have a higher risk tolerance than most people. I think this is something that say startup founders in particular really pride themselves on. And a lot of these people were startup founders, right? They think I'm the kind of person who is willing to take risks. I'm the kind of person who doesn't really need to wait until I'm given permission to do something, whether that's by a regulator, buy some boss. I can sort of study up in my own way, and that's good enough. So, like, I think people were surprisingly, they were very comfortable telling me there is some risk. I know that there have been some negative side effects, but you know what? I keep a journal every day. I have friends who have used it. I'm going to suppliers that are showing their testing certifications from top peptide testing firms, and that's good enough for me, even though I wouldn't recommend that everybody do this.

But you're right, Joe, this is a legal gray area. Some people would even say black murder. So use of the vast majority of these peptides, particularly the non-GLPs, no human trials, no FDA approval, whether for pharmaceutical use or for use in compounding pharmacies, which GLPs have been somewhat approved for. What that means is that it is in a legal gray area because they're also not on DEA list. So they're also not in the sort of illicit drug list. It's sort of a, we don't know. And so one funny thing that people joke about is all of the vials for these peptides will

say for research use only. Right. Because everyone's conducting peptide research apparently. Exactly. So these Chinese manufacturers, what they are allowed to do is to ship peptides around the world for research use, for scientists, for medical researchers, for bio researchers. And so as long as you're not saying it's for human use, you don't have to prove a certain level of purity standard. You don't need necessarily a factory that follows CGMP protocols, which are an FDA approval to know that a factory meet certain quality standards. But again, research use has a lower bar. So people are basically importing the peptides for research use. And then what they'll sometimes do is then ship it separately to purity testing firms. So there are different ones that people trust and don't located in the

U.S., located in Europe. But they'll basically take their batch of peptides that they got from the Chinese manufacturer, take a few samples, ship them off to a testing site, get a certification that it's pure or it's impure. And then they will go mix them themselves. Certain suppliers will basically serve as the American middlemen. They will be U.S.-based companies that will negotiate with the Chinese factories themselves, sort of figure out which ones are trusted by running purity tests on like 10 different Chinese factories they find, pick the one that they trust the most, and then sort of offer their brand's guarantee of running the purity testing process for the U.S. buyers. And so like it really depends on people's risk tolerance. I've spoken with people who are

going direct and literally just being in contact with the manufacturers themselves. I've also spoken to people who have said, I'm willing to use this U.S. middleman supplier that my friends are all using and say is legit and is providing these tests and certifications, but I'm not going to go straight to the factory. Talk to us about the info sharing a little bit more, because this is one aspect of the peptide community, I guess you would call it, is everyone is sort of sharing maybe their personal dealer, personal supplier, and also info on their personal experience with efficacy. Totally. I think the sort of epistemology of the space is super interesting because it's very word of mouth-based, very anecdotal. And I think it is rooted in a growing distrust of the medical establishment and established sources. So people are sort of embracing this do your own research. So I would say that quote unquote, bro wellness influencers like Joe Rogan or Andrew Huberman have both talked extensively about these peptides. So there are very wide audiences. So followers in those communities are learning about them. There's a lot of word of mouth, for example, at certain gyms, trainers and people who train together will be sharing their peptide stacks.

One of the folks who I spoke to learned about the peptides at Less Online, which is a rationalist conference that happens every spring. There is a GLP1 session that she went to. She then discovered this person that everybody else was on Reda Trutide instead. And they all decided to tell her, hey, we're all still alive. So you should get on this. There's less wrong posts on the rationalist forum describing people's day-by-day experiences with peptide. there are amateur sub-sec blogs. There are very shady telegram and Discord groups where people are advertising their suppliers.

Though honestly, I think I would not choose a supplier off like a telegram or Discord group personally. But it is kind of the wild west out there in terms of information. And most people are really just going off social proof and the people that they personally know. You know, we did an episode a while back about Adderall and, of course, a lot of people who are, you know,

work in front of a computer, feel that they can get some edge on Adderall. Is there like a level, of competitiveness, though, in the culture, such that you feel like, look, all their people are, maybe they're more locked in, maybe they're better at office politics or maybe better at pitching a VC because they've got there where people feel like they have to be on these or they feel like they have to optimize their peptide stack so that they can compete and sort of be at their best. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the YC founders I talked to, she literally said

It's another thing I can optimize just like my SEO. She runs a SaaS business as her day job. Or another thing that somebody in these communities told me is these people, like, sometimes they're not overweight. In fact, a lot of the time these folks are not actually overweight. And the reason they're taking, say, Brett a Trutide or a weight loss peptide is because they want to eliminate the food noise so they don't have to take a break for lunch. They can just be locked in for 16 hours straight.

Or like, why do you have to go to the gym, which is going to, you know, drain your ability to run a few more experiments or whatever when you could just be locked in. be taking one of these. And so I think there is a lot of this optimization ethic that is driving people's desire. Another piece that I'm sort of thinking about is whether the looks maxing trends, you know, have impacted Silicon Valley as well. So one of the founders who I spoke to who was using a weight loss peptide mentioned that she watches YC launch videos and she realizes none of the founders are overweight anymore. And I'm going to have to be on video if I'm a founder. I'm going to have to go on podcasts, and I want to make sure that I look my best. So I do think that these sort of

optimization trends are impacting peptide use as well. Yeah, this is something we've discussed on the show before, but this idea that looks maxing is going to become more important as information gets commoditized or the knowledge economy gets commoditized via AI, then your only edge is going to be basically what you look like and how you interact with people. By the way, I'm a big fan of no lunch in the office. Joe knows that. I refuse to eat like the sad salads that cost $20 over here in New York. I find it's better just to save my calories for like a really nice dinner. But anyway, talk to us about how you've seen the future of peptides kind of unrolling, because it does seem to be, it's kind of a weird thing where these are becoming more popular.

and presumably we're just at the beginning stages of people hearing about this and more people consuming them. But there's little to no sign of FDA approval or these becoming sort of, I don't want to say legalized because they're in this gray market area, but made official in some way. Right. It's hard to say. Everyone I spoke to, whether suppliers or doctors in California, definitely said that they saw peptide use booming this year. I've been seeing more news in mainstream newspaper outlets about personal peptide use. I think that peptide use is going to explode. I mean, as soon as people realize that I can be paying $200 for the same semaglutide

that I am currently getting for 1,200. I find it very hard to imagine that that is not going to explode. They're TikTok influencer niches telling you how to mix the bacteriostatic water with the powdered stuff in the vials and how to inject it if you've never done it before. As for the policy environment, I think it's hard to predict. Last year, RFK Jr., the Secretary of Health and Human Services, said that he would end the Biden administration's war on peptides. He sort of has embraced these, take your health into your own hands, like experimental therapeutics. At the same time, there hasn't actually been action so far this year by the Health and Human Services Administration

to bring peptides into a more legal zone. So while RFKKs, has signaled that he will. There hasn't been policy action yet. I did reach out to the HHS and the FDA for comment. And they said that they cannot predict future regulation, but that they are actively revising the list of bulk peptides that are allowed for compounding and compounding pharmacies. So sort of classic, we don't know, maybe looking at it language. But folks in the peptide community are really hoping to see a more, at least less a fair regulatory stance where they're not going to be shutting down these peptide suppliers. Jasmine Sun, that was absolutely amazing. You were truly the perfect

guest to talk about the intersection of peptides in San Francisco culture. So thank you so much for coming on all thoughts. Thanks so much for having me. Better get ready for my peptide rave. That's right. That's fun. You can get the news whenever you want it with Bloomberg News Now. I'm Amy Morris. And I'm Karen

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that can only be heard on Bloomberg News Now. And we don't wait an hour to publish breaking news. When news breaks, we'll have an episode up in your podcast feed within minutes, so you're always getting the latest stories and developments. Get the reporting and the reporting and the context from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts we're all over the world. Listen to the latest from Bloomberg News Now on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen. So Joe, Jasmine, did a great job of introducing us to the peptide space about which we don't really know anything. But I think we need to talk to someone who's actually in the business. Yeah. This is one of those stories where it's obviously a cultural story, but it's also a supply chain,

regulation marketing standpoint. Like, where they're coming from? How are they getting them? And for me, it's like, how do people have any confidence, like, what they're literally injecting into their bodies? Right. Where's this coming from? So I have the perfect second guest.

We're going to be speaking with Zach David. He is the managing partner of Persec Technologies, which runs peptide partners, which is a supplier of peptides. So, Zach, how did you get into the space? because you've had an interesting career path. Right. I got into this space basically solving the problem for myself. A few years ago, my health was very poor.

And I started working with a specialist in the wellness and longevity community and functional medicine. And I noticed the peptide therapies that she was prescribing were highly effective, but also extremely expensive. So then I started doing a little supply chain sleuthing of my own. and found a much better solution to that. And the question that she asked was, do you think it would be legal for me to do that for my patients? And the answer is, of course, no, but that set off a 14-month investigation on how to bring that into the legal market,

which is what we're eventually working on. Why don't you tell us just sort of the basics of what you do? What is the service your business provides? So very similar to what I went through. A lot of these peptide therapies are either multi-year or lifelong, and they exist, and people are going to Chinese peptides to find cheaper solutions. And so we started pushing for independent testing, for endotoxin screening, for heavy metals testing, which the incumbents in the industry were not doing at all at the time. and now pretty much everybody is. So I have so many questions already, but how do you actually go about finding a supplier for a particular peptide?

Because I imagine, you know, you're dealing with people who are all the way over in China. There's probably a lot of different companies to choose from and not that much information out there about them. How do you even begin to go about doing this? There's a good mix of how to find them. a lot advertise on, say, TikTok or they'll find you on WhatsApp. They will hunt down your website and then introduce themselves as suppliers. And so we go through a long vetting process. By some estimates, there are 10 major manufacturers,

and there are a handful that manufacture in-house. And then there's something called liophilization, which is kind of like the finishing step that puts it in the bottles. We basically were just constantly talking to new potential support. and we'll give them a try. We'll send everything out for testing. And the labs that we use are based in the U.S. that follow U.S.P standards and FDA guidelines, which is a little bit different than some of the more popular testing labs that are overseas. Okay, talk us through the step-by-step. Okay, you find a supplier based in China, you like them, whatever, et cetera. Where does it arrive

when it gets to the U.S.? Does it go to the lab first? Does it go to you? And if it goes to you, percentage of vials or what percentage of whatever is actually checked such that you can say, okay, this is a good batch? Right. So we randomly sample from, say, we order 1,000 vials. We'll randomly sample between three and five. Okay. And if the variance in the quality is very tight and we consider that a good batch, we famously

throw out batches we don't consider up to our standards. And sometimes we'll post pictures of us dumping it in the trash on Twitter, which gets us a little cache, but it's not fun to dump money in the garbage, but sometimes you have to do it. Can I just ask about the sequence of the chain in particular, because it is a peptide? What is the type of storage that it has to be involved in from the container on the ship to the dock? Is it a temperature type thing? How do you ensure that sort of quality doesn't degrade during the shipping process?

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, if you were shipping very large amounts, you would want a, cold chain supply the entire route. However, the liophilization process keeps things shelf stable for quite a long time. And recent studies have shown that it doesn't degrade as fast as people initially thought. So when we use commercial grade freezers as soon as we get it in, and then we'll, you know, we'll label the vials and then we'll randomly sample. Tell us more about the manufacturers in China, because I'm having a sort of hard time wrapping my head around who they actually are. So I take it, most of them are not big pharma offshoots. They're sort of independent

manufacturers. But how are these companies actually, I think, has coming into being? Yeah. So there's an interesting mix of what are the gray market manufacturers and, well, let's call it the lit market manufacturers. There are a handful of $10 to $15 billion publicly traded companies in China that do contract manufacturing. But they only only, only sell to FDA supply, like FDA registered companies with supply chains. The major gray market labs, they only sell to other companies within China, who then finish it with the liafulization and then sell directly to the consumers. And what's the actual material that makes up a peptide? When we're talking about peptides, like what are the building blocks of a particular, you know,

I get a vial in the mail. What is it exactly? So the FDA definition is that is an amino acid chain of 40 or less. That definition was added to the Federal Register in 2020. And it is no surprise that things like semi-glutide, otherwise known as Ozenpic, Lungaro, otherwise known as Tersepetide, and the next generation that everyone is currently using called Redisutide, all happen to be exactly 39 in length. So I think there was some clever lobbying, but also things. less than 50 tend to be very stable, unlike larger proteins, which tend to fold it on themselves.

And the manufacturing process called solid-phase peptide synthesis is almost a solved problem. But how do we actually make amino acids? That is a good question. I would have to follow up with you on that. Some are naturally derived and some are synthetic. The resurgence in peptides from its original heyday is partially due to synthetic amino acids. Just talk to us about law and regulation. What is the stance of these things? I actually still don't totally understand.

Are they legal to be sold? I don't know what this term gray market means, et cetera. Just walk to us about how the government, whether we're talking criminal authorities or just FDA-type authorities, think about these things right now. So the guidance is very careful. There has to be a lot of disclaimers about not for human use. on anything sold for research purposes.

Doctors can prescribe them. For example, there's one called Cormoralin, where it was abandoned by the manufacturer for economic reasons, not for safety reasons, in around 2008, but you can get it from compounding pharmacies in the United States. And so doctors will,

it was formally FDA approved. However, thanks from compounding pharmacies do not undergo the same safety standards, but what doctors will still prescribe, stuff like that. The FDA, I think, what's how we put this? When it's for research use only, and you're legitimately selling for research use, it does not fall under there. So a lot of people are conducting peptide research in the comfort of their own homes.

Yes, as I'm sure, you know, most odd lots listeners are aware. The market for micropypipes is growing 8% year over a year projected through 30. So I do believe that a lot of people have the home labs. Yeah. We need micro pipettes. What are we? Yes. Little pipettes.

What is that? Oh, that's like a little thing to extract some liquid. Is that what we're talking about? Yeah. So this is our proxy for peptide consumption. Is the booming market for micro pipettes? Is the booming market for micro pipettes? I'll take it.

So that's a little tongue and cheek, but. No, no, no, but this is useful. It's like, okay, like if we see this thing rising, then intuitively this is what they're using for. So in your marketing, what do you have to say? say such as that you don't run a foul of people in D.C. or wherever. We have strict terms and conditions for research use only, labeled on the boxes, labeled on the vials, labeled on the website. We do not even use the term dosing. We only talk about sample

sizes and just we are very, very, very, very pro-research. But there is a big movement of people who self-organize in telegram and Discord communities who are experimenting on themselves. Long time internet friend of the podcast, Burb, Chairman Burb Bramette. Oh, yes. I saw she had a Chinese peptide rave in San Francisco this week. Yes. Are you there, Zach? Yes, we sponsored it.

It was nice. We had a great time. She's a very, very good friend of mine. I'm guessing that's the same one Jasmine went to, probably. I assume. Unless there are San Francisco. Could there be two Chinese peptide raves and weekend? It would not surprise me at the slide.

So, Zach, how do you actually decide which peptides? to stock. Is it whichever ones are getting the most buzz on TikTok, do the manufacturers approach you with new things that they're making and then you test them out? That's a, yeah, that's a very good question because the formularies change a lot, although between the manufacturers and the suppliers, they do have very, very similar formularies. The ones who deal with the controlled substances and antibiotics, we tend to stay away from, but the ones that we stock, We look for good safety profiles in humans. Unfortunately, for almost all of these,

there are not a lot of good randomized control trials, but a lot of them have good safety studies in humans. So certain things, like there's a popular one called AOD 9604, which has not had a successful human trial ever. And so we just decided not to stock that for ethical reasons. Okay, so we know that in theory, Well, we know more than in theory that the most famous peptides can curb your appetite and therefore facilitate weight loss. Tracy had a little thing of a spray that ostensibly helped autists make better eye contact,

which is, of course, a valuable skill if you want to live in human civilization. What are some of the other popular? What are the other things that people are consuming peptides? Are there any that might surprise us? So there is a class called growth hormone releasing peptides or growth hormone. stimulating peptides, they have very short half-lives, rather than HGH replacement therapy, like human growth hormone replacement therapy, which will eventually cause your body to naturally stop producing its own. This class works with your pituitary to make like an impulse

and release some growth hormone rather than replace it. So that would be good for like weight lifters or bodybuilders or anyone who just wants more strength or that we're talking about. And yeah, and it's also been increasingly prescribed by physicians for improved sleep as well. I could use that. Why don't we manufacture peptides in the U.S.? How is it that China seems to dominate this particular market? That is a great question as well. I believe it's the input, input materials, and the labor and expertise required to engineer it.

What happens is a lot of the raw materials. materials are produced in China. And then over here, they're finished in facilities like doing the liophilization and purification steps by compounding pharmacies. Okay. Everyone who uses these, they have to inject them. Is it all needles and vials? Mostly at this time, however, we've seen an increasing amount of oral formulations. The problem is because of these are small molecules, the digestive system breaks them down very quickly. So creating reliable oral formulations for peptide therapies as has been historically very difficult. This is Caroline Hyde. And I'm Ed Ludlow inviting you to join us for Bloomberg Tech,

a daily podcast focusing exclusively on technology, innovation and the future of business. Every weekday, we bring you the top headlines from the world's biggest tech companies. From finance to defense, AI to entertainment and from startups to the magnificent seven. We highlight the latest stories of the people and companies pushing the tech sector to new frontiers and the politics that shape global tech markets. We do this all every weekday, then bring you the most important conversations and analysis in our podcast. Search for Bloomberg Tech on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you listen.

Join us every afternoon on your commute home and stay ahead of the tech news cycle. That's the Bloomberg Tech podcast. I'm Caroline Hyde in New York. And I'm Ed Ludlow in San Francisco. Subscribe today. wherever you get your podcasts. How do you reduce costs in this space? Is it buying in bulk from a particular supplier or, I don't know, finding cheaper manufacturers of vials and the lionization process, ionization process?

Liophilization. Lyophilization. It's just a fancy word for freeze drying. Okay. All right. The freeze drying process then. That's easier. Yeah.

So it is buying in larger and larger quantities. one of our manufacturing partners over there, they created a novel method of being able to produce large quantities of raw materials. And the next step in our company's evolution is going to be by the manufacturing facility and starting to do that finishing step here and slowly, over time, bring this above board and fully FDA compliant. Am I stupid for not using peptides? I work in a very competitive industry. I have a very demanding schedule. I have two children.

I'm 45 and so I'm at the second half of the curve where my body is getting a little deteriorating and getting a little bit closer to death each day. Like, am I stupid for not tasting the fruits of advanced science? That is a question between you and your physician. Okay. That is a very smart answer. Do you feel that it is an important element of your ability

to thrive and compete your research? into peptides? I do. I like them a lot. I've noticed a lot of good changes, especially my health, my energy over the years. But I also do work closely with a physician in order to care of one. Can I ask you a little bit about marketing? How do people discover your company? How do people serve? So let's see. Word of mouth has been great. Of several influencers have written about the cost effectiveness of our product. And then there's a website called Finrik, which has started to offer this wonderful

service where people can send in files from anyone that they buy from off any of these research use only sites. I think they've covered over 140 companies now. And we've started to take number one slots on their site just left and right. So I think we're doing something, we're doing something a little bit better than everyone else. So people crowdsourcing. a lot of the research and reviews. And also, I guess you hold peptide raves, right? That's some marketing things. That was once.

It might happen again. You know, I'm not much of a dancer, but I did. I did feel some questions. Something that sort of works a little bit like human growth hormone. I get it's very appealing. Weight loss, again, concentrate. Are there any surprising peptides? What's the most unexpected thing that a peptide might, in research,

suggest could benefit someone. I don't know if I should say this out loud. That means you definitely should say that out loud. Yeah, okay. Well, there is one peptide that goes under the name PT-141. It's brand name. It's actually an FDA-approved one. It's called Vileisi, and it is meant for low-sex drive.

It's very completely legitimate. Nothing wrong with saying that out loud. For men and women? It's meant for women, but according to people that, who have told me it works for men as well. Many people are saying, what's the customs process actually like for this? Because I imagine, I mean, customs is a pain at the best of times. And I imagine for something like this, it's potentially even more complicated.

And then also, have you been impacted by tariffs at all? Yeah. It was really fun to see the first time a UPS driver asked for cash on delivery since like 1990. You know, like, remember, remember cash on delivery? That was when they, when tariffs first came back and no one really knew, no one had the infrastructure to charge in advance. Now they'll, now they'll let you know, hey, you're going to owe $30 here, $60 here. There's like an online payment portal too, right? Yeah.

It's not. But originally there wasn't. Originally there wasn't. The driver showed up and wanted a check. Yeah. It was crazy. I'm reading about this PT-141. So unlike Viagro, which famously opens up blood flow pathways,

this one, its method of action, is actually to increase the underlying sexual excitement itself, which is sort of different. Anyway, it's interesting. I have heard that it works. You've heard that it works? Yep. I don't have any experience with it, but I've heard that it works. Wait, so what does the customs documentation actually look like when

the stuff arrives at a port, what forms are you filling out? They're fun. They're half in Mandarin, so it's a little difficult. Well, I know, is scan it, chad, GBT, we're fine. Language doesn't matter these days. How long do you think it's going to take if it happens at all for these sorts of peptides to become, as you put it, above board in the U.S.? So there's an interesting history there.

So the most popular ones, basically, in September 2023, we call the peptide Armageddon. About 17, 20 of the most popular ones that were prescribed by doctors in the wellness and longevity community were put on this, what's called the 503A banned list. And they banned the prescribing of, or the compounding of certain peptides. And according to my physician, it was not for particularly good scientific reasons, but the explanation that they give is that it can trigger immune responses. the adverse immune responses. Last question for me, has there been any change in D.C. since the changing of the administration

in terms of either at the FDA or otherwise? So I go through all of the enforcement letters that the FSO, and you can go on the website and you can see every enforcement letter and every warning letter that they send to every single website. And I believe the last one ever sent was December 24. So there has not been.

been a lot of enforcement. Yeah, that's a pretty big hint. All right, Zach, we're going to leave it there, but thank you so much for coming on Athlots. That was super interesting. I'm such a huge fan of yours. Oh, thank you. We're going to use that in the sizzle reel.

Thank you so much, Zach. So, Joe, that was really interesting. So interesting. Fun episode. Obviously, it intersects with a bunch of Othlots themes, primarily competition with China in the biotech space and also supply chain issues and medical regulation. Are we going to see the White House adopt a industrial policy to wean us off of our dependence on China for experimental peptides? Does anyone talk about that?

What I was about to say is actually, we've talked about this before, but you could envision a world where knowledge becomes very commodified because of AI. Yeah. And so everyone's competitive edge is basically what you look like, how you present yourself and interact with others. So maybe in that economy, peptides have a lot of value. Absolutely. I could totally say it. I mean, the way I think about that question is we don't even need to talk about AI in the sense that we are already on this path. Right.

People have been looks maxing prior to the invention of chatbots. People have felt ever since the maybe since the iPhone or maybe since Instagram and set all of this pressure. Looks have always mattered. But I think we're at an sort of different point. Yeah. No, what I'm saying is like this already feels. like it's accelerating some of these trends absolutely looks have always mattered people have always been anxious about their weight etc but it does feel like this pressure is just building where everyone

is thinking about these things everyone feels very competitive all of these things and everyone is open about how competitive very open it's kind of surprising yeah there was a time when people didn't talk about things like their plastic surgery but now it seems very or more transparent than it used to be the other thing i was thinking about just in terms of regulation I mean, it's notable that it's a gray market, right, as we described. And ostensibly, everyone is doing peptide research in their basements. And that's kind of a joke, right? But on the other hand, it's not really a joke because what we're doing is kind of outsourcing human trials, I guess, to, like, citizens who are opting in.

They're the ones opting in to test these new treatments. You know, it's interesting. We did that, we did that episode with DA Wallach, and he talked about how we could have a model of sort of market for pharmaceuticals and therapies in which the only thing required to sell something is the safety trial. Because right now, for any therapy, we do safety and then efficacy. But it is very, you could argue that really the only thing that should be required is a safety trial. And then it's up to the consumer or whatever. You know, I think you could make that argument that then it's up to the doctor and the consumer to get. to decide is this worthwhile, given the price of what we know about, et cetera. But what it feels like to me is we're sort of entering this era in which, regardless of what the formal law states or what regulation state, there is a cultural move towards letting people experiment as they want with things that by and large, it doesn't sound like there's much evidence of particularly harmful, dangerous with a lot of this stuff. No one has died from peptides that I know. As far as I know, I haven't seen that, et cetera. And so it feels like we're sort of, you know, this is part of the hacker culture. It's like, okay, there's probably not much danger, I suppose, but what it does for you, that's on you to figure out.

All right. Thank you, everyone who is experimenting with peptides. You're doing it for the greater good, I'm sure. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.

And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the stalwart. Follow our guest, Jasmine's son. She's at Jasmine New Son. And Zach David, he's at Zach David. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez, at Carmen Armand, Dashel Bennett at Dashbot, and Kel Brooks at Kel Brooks. From real oddlots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash oddlots.

We have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all of these topics 24-7 in our Discord. Discord.g. And if you enjoy oddlots, if you like it, when we talk about the peptide supply chain, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast. podcast platform. And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes, absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts

and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening. Hello, I'm Michelle Hussein, and for more than 20 years, I was at the BBC. But all the time I was delivering the headlines, I wanted to go further than the news of the day. To spend more time with the people shaping our world. And that's what I'm doing here on this podcast. Speaking to people from Nigel Farage, to love you trying ever so hard, to tech journalist Karaswisher. And the tech industry is running wild. You know, they've gotten what they wanted and they've seen a huge run-up in their stock prices. This will be a place where every weekend you can count on one essential conversation to help make sense of the world. So please join me. Listen and

subscribe to the Michelle Hussein show from Bloomberg Weekend, wherever you get your podcasts. You certainly ask interesting questions.