Odd Lots - Why The Entire Way We Talk About Millennials Is Wrong

Episode Date: April 23, 2018

When it comes to millennials, the media has certain tropes that it likes to go back to. Millennials love avocados. Millennials aren't into homebuying. Millennials are always killing off this or that product or service. But what if the consumption lens is the totally wrong way to talk about this generation? On this week's Odd Lots podcast, we speak to Malcolm Harris, the author of "Kids These Days: Human Capital and the Making of Millennials," about what he says is a more useful frame for understanding the economic stresses millennials face.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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And we don't wait an hour to publish breaking news. When news breaks, we'll have an episode up in your podcast feed within minutes. So you're always getting the latest stories and developments. Get the reporting and the context from Bloomberg's 3,000 journalists and analysts we're all over the world. Listen to the latest from Bloomberg News Now on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere you listen. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Oddlots podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. And I'm Tracy Allaway. So Tracy, you know what's something that both of us have in common?

Oh God, it could be any number of things, couldn't it? Yeah, no, it's true. There's probably a number of things. Both of us are very old. Wait, you're older than I am, so I'm going to go ahead and say speak for yourself, Joe. Wait, you are, I am? Yeah, you're like three years older than I am. Oh, wait, really?

Yes. I thought we were the same age. Oh, my God. I actually, I honestly thought we were the same age. You don't know me at all. Thanks, Joe. Okay, so if that's the case, then that makes me not a millennial, but you are clearly a millennial, because I've always heard that like 1981 or 1982 or something like that is the cutoff.

And so you're clearly on the other side of the cutoff than I am. Yeah, I mean, people argue about the definition of millennials all the time. But by most definitions, I am included in that much maligned bracket. And you are not, I guess. I honestly never knew you were a millennial. Like, I'm sorry, I'm kind of blown away by this because I was expecting a whole intro of, like, we can't relate to millennials. And I didn't realize I was co-hosting a podcast with a millennial. I've hidden it well, haven't I?

I've also ruined your intro. This is blowing my mind right now. Oh, God. Why are we talking about millennials? Well, you know, like in the media, obviously, as you say, much malign generation, the media has some very stereotypical ways of talking about millennials. these broad strokes. It's like millennials don't want houses. They just want to buy avocados or millennials are only interested in investing this way or whatever it is. And it's always very embarrassing sort of reductionist form of coverage. And it's like we kind of have to move on.

It's kind of it's there's got to be a better way. As a long suffering millennial, I completely agree with your analysis. And I would also say that one of my. pet peeves is people writing about millennials as if we're somehow a separate subspecies of human beings with completely different desires and behaviors. It's still so weird to me that you said as if we're. I just was not, I'm sorry, I'm still having a hard time getting over that. It's still weird to me, but I get it, yes, as if you and your type are a different type of human. Yes. So anyway, as you say, we should probably rethink it, totally bust up these impressions that we have about this subspecies called millennials. And the ramifications of this

are huge because of buying power, economic cloud, political cloud. Every time there's a new generation, things are going to change. So we should probably try to get it right. I completely agree. So how are we, first of all, can I just say, I totally distrust you as a non-millennial to represent our best interest. So it's going to be up to me in this podcast. Yeah. Who are we having on then? Today I'm very excited about our guest. His name is Malcolm Harris. He's a writer. And he is the author of a recent book called Kids These Days, Human Capital and the Making of Millennials,

which if I sort of interpret that title correctly, may imply that a lot of making of millennials, that there's an element of a sort of social construct here, that the way we talk about millennials is somehow forced and artificial and maybe there is a better way of understanding this generation. Millennials is a construct of global capitalism. I love it already. Malcolm, thank you very much for joining us. Thanks for having you, John, please. I'm happy to be here.

So I've mentioned in the intro that there is this sort of cliche way in which the media talks about millennials. I jokingly, you know, said you guys all want to. You're a millennial, right? I am. I'm 1988. Great. We outnumber you now on this podcast. Definitely outnumbered on the podcast.

Yes. You want to spend all your money on avocados instead of getting a mortgage. But I'm curious, when you think about how millennials have been constructed, what you mean by that specifically. Well, it's interesting. One of the first, the first thing you said when you said millennials, right, was buying power. And because the easiest data we have for any cohort period is purchase data, it's really easy to get information about consumption. It's really hard to get information about anything else, and it takes years of scholarship, and it's not as flashy, but consumption data is really easy. And there's an incentive for people who are selling things to have these consumption profiles.

And so the first voices we hear defining any generational cohort these days are marketers who are basing their ideas off of consumption patterns. That's not how I think of generations. It's not I think how generations are most usefully understood as aggregates of purchasing power. So instead of going just by, you know, sort of like generational bucket, an arbitrary generational bucket that's chosen by marketers, What do you base your definition on then? So when I went to look at what is structuring this, you know, cohort of workers, which is how I look at, you know, most members of this cohort, it's accurate. This is producers, not as consumers.

And so I was looking at, first of all, the research into what differentiates generations empirically in terms of their, like, personal characteristics, their attitudes towards the world. And a lot of that was about the social environment, the political, social, economic environment, and not quick changes. It's not like 9-11 had a psychological effect that has constructed this generation necessarily. It's about long-term secular shifts in the economy. And so the biggest one and the one that I think defines this generation more than anything is this divergence between compensation and productivity that emerges exactly.

when we start being born and has continued expanding since then. Before we get into sort of diving into your framework, I find that just your point to be both really interesting and simple, which is this idea that, yeah, marketers come up with all these things and then they get to define the rules of what aspects are most important. And of course, they care about spending patterns. Is this new in the sense that previous generations were, they defined by marketers as well, or is this because of the emergence of a marketing class that now millennials, Generation Z, every generation will now sort of be defined by characteristics

that maybe people didn't think about as much in prior generations? Yeah, I think that starts with Gen X, which is a generation that's maybe characterized by its being targeted by marketers for the first time. And that was a marketing term as well. But if you look at the baby boomers, right, That's not about consumers necessarily. That's about their demographic effect. If you look at the greatest generation, some real great self-branding there, that's about fighting in a war and defeating fascism and building a country or whatever. It does nothing to do with selling them stuff.

Whereas Millennials was created by marketers, we've got marketers right now fighting desperately to name this next cohort. Jean Twengey, who's one of the leading authorities, as they say, named her book, Aigen, which is is also the name of her consulting firm, IGEN, trying to sell things to IGN, or trying to sell companies on how to sell things to IGN or even just the name IGN. So it's generational analysis is full of that kind of marketing chicanery. Wait, I want to hear more about how my compensation doesn't match my level of productivity. Yeah, Joe wanted to get us off that.

I wonder why. Of course he did. He's not millennial. Right. Yeah. So this is, I think, the most important thing about, you know, data point over the past three, four decades is this divergence that starts and really does about late 70s, early 80s, where median compensation starts to level off for workers and productivity keeps increases. And we've seen recently that productivity itself start to level off as well, but that gap

is not closing. And there's no sign that it is going to close. And neoclassical economics doesn't really have a term for that divergence, but Marxism does. And it's called the rate of exploitation. And that rate of exploitation is what characterizes, I think, the millennial experience more than anything else, certainly more than buying things. Let's talk about how that plays out. The question of stagnant wages, the charts showing the gap between productivity and wage growth. I think there's a fair amount of understanding of that, or at least facets of it. But the sort of translation or maybe the transmission mechanism between this pace of wage growth

to cultural values and cultural definitions and what defines this generation, what are the sort of second order effects of that? That's a great question. So in a society in which the stakes are higher, because that's really what we've seen is the difference between making it and not making it is greater now than it used to be. It used to be you could do okay and do okay. And that's not the feeling that young people have growing up in America anymore. And not that everyone always did.

But there is an increasing feeling that if you don't make it, life is not going to be easy. Life is going to be hard. And so to make it requires more work younger earlier, higher stakes younger earlier than it has in past generations. And so when we talk about, when I went into this project, I felt very critical about sort of the helicopter parents' archetype. But as I did more research, I found out that they're responding to real actual situations, that the risk of their children having a much harder life is higher. And so when parents are working harder, and most of these parents are not, you know, rich, because most people aren't rich, mostly working class parents who are taking on extra work to try and make sure their kid has the best shot they have in a world where if they don't make it, they could really suffer. And so I developed a lot of sympathy for that during the course of the project. It sounds like there's a certain winner take on this about how millennials seem to be.

the economy or millennial parents, as you put it, in which you can make it and do phenomenally well, and there are obviously people who have. But as you say, it's not as easy to just do okay and do okay. So the possible paths, the successful paths are perhaps fewer and maybe greater, and then there's just a lot of bad paths. Yeah, and that competition is very useful for employers and not useful at all for employees. Kevin Ruse for the New York Times has a great book called Young Money where he's talking to young stockbrokers,

you know, Goldman analysts, right out of college. And these are the people who have never lost at anything in their whole lives. And they're recruiting, you know, only out of Ivy League schools. And they take these kids who have never lost anything in their lives and they just pit them against each other.

And they don't have to know anything about finance or whatever. It's just about this competition and winning and losing because employers harness profit from that. That is an engine of productivity for them, whereas for us, not so much. So they encourage that kind of competitive behavior. Just to play devil's advocate for a second, because as a millennial, this is often the response that I hear from people when this type of conversation crops up. It's that our definition of making it has shifted.

So, yes, there's a lot of urgency to make it. in the workforce because otherwise life will be bad. But the critics of millennials say that our expectations of what making it actually looks like have grown exponentially and in some cases unrealistically. So making it to us is, you know, traveling all the time and posting photos on Instagram and affording a really nice apartment and a big house that we can show off to our friends and families and, yes, eating avocados all the time as well. What do you say to those people?

I think they're somewhat misinformed and they might be misinformed by young people in their own lives who are working hard to reassure them that they're okay. And I hear this from young people all the time that a lot of their like curating of their digital lives and making themselves look good is not just for their friends to make their friends think they're doing well, but for their parents and older people to make them think that like, you know, their life is going okay. I think in reality our expectations, our standards, and I've actually just been reporting on this about in my line of work, freelance writing, where the nominal pay has decreased, just straight up gone down. And you can see this across industries and the jobs we have now are worse. And that's not particularly controversial if you look at the numbers. I would like to address the idea of expectations or entitlement to life getting easier because that's a criticism we hear about young people, millennials a lot. But it was also supposed to be the premise of capitalism, right? Like 100 years ago, Kane said, in about 100 years, we should solve this whole economic problem thing.

And then we can spend all our days doing art and being creative and eating great food and, you know, taking pictures of avocado toast. That was supposed to be the deal. We haven't seen that at all. We haven't seen any even movement in that direction where the proceeds of this mode of production become more shared and are state of living increases. So I think people should feel entitled to a better life. I got a question, one of the talks I was giving about the book

where a college student asked me, if housing prices are always going to go up, then when is life supposed to get easier? And that's a totally valid question that I think, you know, economists need to be answering. If things are supposed to get more expensive continually forever, when does life get easier for people on this planet? One of the areas that I don't think is particularly controversial in terms of the way millennials think about the world and think about sort of state of things is the lack of trust. And so we hear a lot about millennials don't trust politicians. They don't trust the stock market.

They don't trust their employers. That all of these institutions have, to some extent, failed them. And whether that's true or not, that seems to be a real thing. I'm curious what your take is on this sort of trust collapse idea. And it's not just institutions. It's also other people. And that's one of the biggest, most qualitative gaps that I think defines a generational cohort, if you look at compared to recent cohorts, is social trust.

It's the idea that most people can be trusted, to be honest, which was not, you know, huge for Gen X either. But we're, I think, 10 points lower down to, I think, 19 or something. So four out of five millennials don't think most people can be trusted. Wow. And that, again, goes back to that higher stakes economy where if you're constantly competing with other people, of course you're not going to trust them. you'd be an idiot to trust them. They don't trust you either because they're in competition with you. Fundamentally, that is their relation to you as another person.

And that didn't used to be the case, I don't think. Especially for younger people when we're learning concepts of social trust, the level of competition between young people was just lower. So we shouldn't be surprised. June Grasso, inviting you to join me for the Bloomberg Law podcast. Every weekday, we help you make sense of the legal stories that shape the nation and the world. Listen for complete analysis of the biggest court cases, the latest actions from Congress and regulators, and the legal moves driving the markets. From corporate law to constitutional

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Subscribe today wherever you get your podcast. So how much of the blame for the current situation, this intense competition, low compensation for the productivity that you're actually giving to your employer, How much of that can you lay at the feet of, let's say, the older generation? I don't think about that quite in generational terms. You can. There's a way to think about it if you're using generational conflict as your main frame, but that's not really how I look at it.

I would blame the ownership class of that generational cohort in particular. And I think if you look at Bruce Gibney's book, and he's the most, He wrote a book called Generation of Sociopaths that is about the Boomers. That is straight up that argument, just like the Boomers did this to us. And I think he's a Gen X guy. At the beginning, he excludes non-white and non-American-born boomers, just from the jump. And, you know, that doesn't make for as good of a title, but you have to do that in order for the analysis to make sense. So the idea of blaming Boomers itself is, I think, kind of faulty.

stand up. Speaking of Gen X, a lot of JetX people are pretty upset these days too, right? Isn't there this sort of theme that the Gen Xers feel no one ever talks about them, that so much interest is on millennials and the boomers and then Gen X, which sort of felt maybe in the late 90s like their lives were all going to be awesome and everyone was going to get rich and they just had this very brief moment and now they're forgotten about. Yeah.

The thing about generational analysis is not everyone. is born at an equally important time. And that's nothing personal to Gen X, but, uh, and it also means no one's going to hold them ultimately responsible for the state of the world in the way that I think millennials will be. Well, that's good. Yeah. So you could, I would take that deal if I were you guys, to be honest. For what it's worth, I think I'm also not Gen X because I was born in 1980.

And I always, okay. And so I kind of like, you're on there, I mean the generation between millennials and Gen X. Well, and that gets to, I think, an important point about, the way I'm doing generational analysis, which is that it isn't about a year cutoff. It's about the kind of life you have, right? Jared Kushner is a millennial, but he doesn't live that way. That's not that question. I'm curious about two defining things, I guess events in the last 15 or 20 years, and that is the Iraq War and also the great financial crisis. And the extent to which

those have informed Millennials' view of the world? The Iraq war is an interesting one because it definitely, for a lot of us, myself included, was our first introduction to political participation. I started protesting the Iraq war before. I protested the war in Afghanistan.

But at the same time, the impacts of that constant state of war have been cordoned off from most of society in a way that we've never really seen with war. And so a large effort for the Iraq war was to insulate the population from its effects or even the knowledge that it was ongoing. And so you don't see millennials influenced by the Iraq war at the same rate, volume that, you know, Vietnam impacted that generation.

At the same time, we've been at war our entire lives, and it's a war that's been fought by young people. So there are a lot of veterans out there at the same time. It's not a infantry intensive war in the same way that we've had past wars. So the impact of the Iraq War has been very complicated. The financial crisis, I think, is probably a little bit more direct and a little bit more visible. And the bailouts, I think, is also part of the financial crisis as part of that whole sequence, is understanding that firms would lie and cheat and steal and get away with it. and that this was the condition of our politics and our economy and that they had the rest of us hostage

and that they could take the whole thing any day and we had to, you know, appease the bondholders or else we were all going to die and that this was the condition of our political existence. That's disheartening. So if millennials are constructs of capitalism and mostly constructs of the downsides of capitalism, it sounds like, What can possibly be done to improve the situation for our cohort of people? That's the $100 million question, I guess. Thankfully, we have one example recently, which was the West Virginia teacher strike. And strike labor actions, which, a point I'm making the book, have been basically banned since we,

over the course of millennial development, strikes have been marginalized as a practice, so much so that everyone sort of forgot that even that they were illegal, I feel like, and that they could repress them. And so the West Virginia teacher strike, which was illegal, was also successful and victorious and earned them a wage increase. And I think a lot of people saw that, especially teachers and around the country, were going to see the impact of that. So law-breaking, mostly, law-breaking labor action.

If it's not breaking laws, it's probably not going to be very useful, I think, at this point. I'm glad you brought that up because I'm curious, you know, like in the world that I kind of inhabit New York City media, I used to work for a strictly digital media company. We've seen a number of unionizations of newsrooms recently. I think places like Fox Media and Vice Media have recently unionized. Is this a phenomenon that is, okay, this is liberal, leftist journalists in New York City are sort of getting into the idea of labor action? Or is this a phenomenon that is taking root in your view in a broader way? Because I have a hard time telling what's just the bubble of the people I follow on Twitter or my colleagues versus

is the larger cohort. And this is something that's started to change, I think, since I wrote the book, actually. The numbers when I was writing the book is that millennials were less likely to join unions, even when they were available in their workplace. Those numbers might be different now. I do think we've seen maybe an excess of attention on the media space because it's the media space. Right.

We do control the media. The media controls the media. But I do think this West Virginia teacher strike is going to have a big impact because it's been so off the table for so long. Part of the problem is that just labor organizations have been weakened. The leadership is not necessarily acting in the best interest in the rank and file, which again, this West Virginia teacher strike was a wildcat strike at a certain point where the leadership was ready to go back in and the rank and file stayed out. And so I think more than just the question of labor action, it's the type of labor action, the kind of labor action that we're going to see that's led by, you know, Facebook memes rather than union bureaucrats. And that seems more effective at this moment. I, for one, can't wait for the millennial revolution.

I do wonder how much of the reluctance to join unions is part of that competitive culture that has essentially been bred into millennials in the workplace. You know, you talked about that winner takes all environment. It's kind of hard to be the one joining a union if you think that you also have to set yourself apart from the rest of the group and basically do whatever your employer wants from you in order to get ahead in life. I think that's absolutely true. It's a crucial point. We saw this with the Gawker Union, actually, back when there was a Gawker Union. They negotiated an at-will hire contract, which is insane. If any union person looked at that contract, they'd, you know, slap that Gawker negotiating team right in the face because it was a terrible contract.

But it was motivated by this idea that I think had been bred into all of them of competition. You know, we don't want to protect the jobs of people who aren't pulling their weight. All right. I'm going to ask you a question that is perhaps anathema to you. Sure. Let's hear it. No. But let's say, and maybe this has already happened because.

People are smart. This would have already happened. But, you know, someone at Pepsi or Procter & Gamble or something came across your book, kids these days about millennials. And they're like, oh, we should get that guy, Malcolm Harrison, to teach us about millennials and how we're all taking this very naive view of them and how we should be thinking about them more than just a bunch of checkboxes of consumption patterns. We really need to learn more. A, has that happened? And B, they bring you in to give a talk.

What would you tell them? So the only one where that happened was for the 21st century Fox offsite before they sold the whole company, basically. They asked if I wanted to come talk about young people at the 21st Century Fox offsite in, like, Palm Beach. So I got some email about that. And I wrote back, you know, being a good Marxist, how much? and at that point I think they sold the company.

So that was the closest I've come to corporate consulting. I think I would have done that just to go to Palm Beach to hang out with Lachlan Murdoch and see what the... All right, so let's say they had hit your bid and like, yeah, you know, come down and talk to us. I just love that vision, by the way, of you down there. But let's say they had, you know, they had come back with an adequate number for you and they're like, okay. So what would you tell them? Assuming you weren't trying to sabotage them or troll them. Sure.

If I wanted to talk to Lacloplin-Marfee, well, it's hard because the honest things I have to say to them are not ones they'd want to hear, right? I'd say your father dies happy and you will die in the street surrounded by lots of angry people. And I think they are aware of that possibility right now, right? It was the head of Cartier the other day was like, you know, the idea of uprising keeps me up all night every night. And I think partly that's what they want to hear, right? They get some sense of excitement over knowing their position is somewhat precarious. But it's true. I mean, I don't have anything that I think they would find useful.

They know what their strategy is in terms of labor exploitation. Maybe they can clarify it by reading the book if they want. But I'm not inclined to give them any advice about it. I'm not like Gene Twenge where I'm going to go talk to the American Petroleum Institute about how you can sell cars to. millennials and no one has reached out to me to do something like that. I think we should call this episode, do you hear the millennials sing? That should be it. Malcolm, how much do you think the pressures that we're talking about that are on millennials?

How much do those get eased as the older generation leaves the workforce and, dare I say it, actually dies off and maybe leave some money to their children, which we can all inherit, also relinquishes their voting power and their influence in U.S. politics. Is that the point where things start getting better? No, I don't think so. Because that, one, I have no idea when that's going to happen, and they sure have invested a bunch of time and money into prolonging it as far as possible. It's like Western civilization, right?

It's like a nice idea. Boomers retiring. But also that they've set up the next millennial leadership cohort is not any business. better than the boomer leadership cohort. Again, people like Jared Kushner, right? These folks are already in place, and they are responsible to an even smaller number of people than their father's work. So I'm not looking forward to our millennial overwork.

Malcolm Harris, the book is Kids These Days, Human Capital, and the Making of Millennials. Thank you very much for joining. Thanks so much for having. Tracy, I know you liked that episode. I definitely did. It was so good. I feel empowered as a millennial and, you know, I'm going to go out and start the revolution. And I know that Malcolm, as he said multiple times, he doesn't really think that the straight-up

generational warfare lens is exactly the correct one. But I do know that nothing gets you more excited about anything that sort of, any sort of vague whiff of generational warfare because it has been a constant theme of your writing. Well, come on. I think there's more than a vague whiff, to be fair. But I also think if you pin it just on the baby boomers, of course, that is oversimplifying things. But just to broaden it out and not be a completely self-centered millennial and play to that stereotype, I do think there's an important aspect to this conversation, and a lot of it you can apply to the broader workforce, right?

We talk in markets and economics all the time about that elusive wage growth. Why hasn't it happened? And a lot of what we've been discussing about companies sort of holding all the cards and the battle between corporations, capital owners and the labor force when it comes to millennials, you can apply that to a much, much broader section of the workforce, I think. Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's a lot of themes to unpack here, including an increasingly less controversial viewpoint that the concentration of corporate power among a smaller, and smaller a number of winner take-all companies, has put downward pressure on wages. I think this lens is absolutely, as you say, very useful for a much broader conversation as well. Yeah. And I like the part where Malcolm said that you weren't born in an important time. I know. I've come to realize that and I just accept it now, though it makes me a little bit sad.

The one other thing I really liked is the idea of, you know, when we were talking about the strikes and the idea of maybe the sort of labor action of the future will be. people in a Facebook page sharing memes about labor action rather than some sort of centralized union leadership. And it's a good reminder that the next wave of things may not look like the old things. And so we might have this view like, okay, we're watching for the reemergence of a more powerful labor movement. And we keep looking at union membership or something like that. But it could just be ideas taking root or some sort of more horizontal coordination, sort of a good idea to remain open to how these things could look different. It could be something as simple as millennial

employees talking to each other about what their actual salaries are and then going to their bosses and figuring out how to make those higher. Absolutely. I'm a little bit worried that maybe the revolution is going to play out on Instagram, but we'll find out. We'll say. All right. This has been another edition of the All Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Allaway.

And I'm Joe Wisenthall. You can follow me on Twitter at The Stallwart. And you can follow Malcolm on Twitter at Big Mean Internet. And you should follow our producer, Tofer Forges, on Twitter at Forhes T, as well as the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca Levy, at Francesca today. Thanks for listening. The news doesn't stop on the weekends. Context changes constantly.

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