Off Air... with Jane and Fi - 100% bonk-buster (with Ade Adepitan)

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Jane M is experiencing mixed feelings about a certain former prime minister and Jane G is having none of it. They also cover Balham, women-only clubs and M&S changing rooms.Plus, presenter and wheelchair basketball player Ade Adepitan joins Jane G to discuss his new documentary 'Whites Only: Ade’s Extremist Adventure'.And our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I had to be escorted in case I was seen by the gentleman having lunch. Because they wouldn't be familiar with the concept of a woman going to the lavatory. I probably could only do 500 words because I've got to tell people off for vaping, remember? Yeah, but that's 500 words on the way to work and 500 words on the way home. Don't always get a seat on the way home. But anyway, we can work round this. Welcome to Off-Ware. We're just discussing how Jane Margot...

My future literary career. ...writes her novel. And is it going to be literary or is it going to be a bonky buster? A 100% bonk buster. Right, OK. Yep. I've only ever really wanted to write a bonk buster.

I've never seen myself as Marilynne Robinson, to be honest. I see myself more as Urban Jilly Cooper. Oh, lovely. No, I'd read that. And will it be set in the gritty, challenging, yet high-octane and strangely erotic world of the media? What do you think? I think yes.

I mean, write what you know. And it might also have some other elements of London life in it. I'm not going to say too much right now. Well, I'm not going to steal your ideas. No, but listeners might. They might be there going, oh, actually, someone might be at their typewriter right now. I was just telling Jane, the other Jane,

that I have interviewed Sarah Cox today, BBC radio presenter, and also a very successful novelist. And her first novel was called Throne. I think that was right. The second one is called Way Back. I think it's called Way Back. I only read it. I finished reading it this morning in bed.

Way Back. And it's a kind of midlife crisis book, but in a good way. I mean, I really enjoyed it. I think people will love it. You can hear that interview on Easter Monday, actually, on Times Radio and on Off Air that day as well. But she just said if you want to write a book, her advice

you get up early, you do, you aim for a thousand words a day and you write between six and eight. So if anyone is thinking of writing a book that's the Sarah Cox way to do it. But I do already get up at six. And I will get up at four. Anyway, I will have to get up at four

and I'll have to go to bed now if that's okay Right, well just hang fire Just hang fire Just for a couple of minutes while we do this So the thing that kept me up a little bit later than I planned to go to bed last night was that I'm a bit late to the party here I started watching the Channel 4 documentary

The Rise and Fall of Boris Johnson Have you watched it? Oh my goodness, how did they get all those people to be so candid? I mean, Jennifer Akuri and Pensionella Wyatt. I mean, Pensionella Wyatt is kind of being nice about him, which was astonishing. She seems a very forgiving lady, doesn't she? Very forgiving.

Yes. And Jennifer Akuri was just so incredibly candid. And then all of those, you know, blokes. Yeah, well, I think for a lot of people it was therapy because they'd probably been desperate to get this off their heaving bosoms. And here was an opportunity to contribute to something that, let's face it, pretty much exposed the man.

Although, do you think it's changed any minds? I mean, I didn't like him to start with. No. I've never understood the appeal of the ramshackle, supposedly, bon vivant, when actually, if you know anything about men, you look at his behaviour and you think, no, he's just needy and narcissistic

and has all kinds of childhood-based issues. Absolutely, and I think Petra and Jennifer talking about how vulnerable he was. Yeah, exactly. It's surprising. For some reason, I was sort of slightly more impressed. I mean, he's watched episode one. No, because I really don't like him at all

and I'm so unimpressed by him. But I suppose looking back at all the things he'd done, I guess his ambition more than anything and how he'd managed to manoeuvre himself into such powerful positions quite early on, you know, just relentlessly. It's sort of, I mean, it's disgusting, but was sort of impressive.

I don't think we can give him all that much credit. I think he had quite a lot of help and privilege along the life's highway. It's not a rags to riches story, that one, is it? I did quite enjoy the fact that he's had the same haircut since he was four. Yeah, he's got, he's had, well, can I say, some of the childhood photographs of Boris Johnson they showed, showed i mean we've all got horrors from our

childhood i mean there are some exceptionally terrible photographs of me as a child i mean the photographs of me now aren't brilliant but photographs of me as a child were really terrible but he didn't seem to ever take a good photo at any point in his childhood. I mean, you just look at him and think, ooh, was help available? The haircut, the clothes, the stance. I mean, it was the 1970s. I don't care, Jane. I grew up in the 1970s. I'm going to stop being, sorry,

I'm just making a lot of excuses for Boris's photograph. I'm a little worried about you. Although I did, I remember saying to Fee that there was just one scene in, I think it might have been in episode one or was it episode two, where I began to, maybe I did begin to see his appeal.

He was trying to record some sort of video clip on Primrose Hill. Yes. Kept getting it wrong. Back Boris. Backboris.com kept getting it wrong. Silly me.

Oh, laughing at himself. And I was just, I remember I sat on the sofa and I had a slow grin and I went, slapped my cheek and went, stop it!

Do not be drawn in to this man. Do not find him appealing because he isn't. No, he isn't. No, the shtick is incredibly annoying. Although, yeah,

when you watched him on the University Challenge episode in the broadsheet, he is actually incredibly clever, which is why the bumbling act is so annoying. But what I was going to say is last week we were talking

about the week before we were talking about charles spencer's memoir in which he talks about you know these schools that that they were sent to and the brutality of boarding schools and being ripped away from your family and having traumatic things happen in your family and i do think that certainly is the case for Boris you know these women talking about his vulnerability all point to the fact that he just desperately wanted so feeling that he wasn't loved enough by his father made him want everybody to love him so it wasn't enough for one person to love him he needed to be loved by everyone and I do think possibly there's something in that oh I don't I don't doubt that for a second what i think gnaws away at me is that it was allowed he was allowed to portray himself as a kind of

hail fellow well met yeah pub drinking pub going he probably just never been in a pub in his life and if he did go in a pub i don't think he'd ever buy a round well no jennifer corey talks about the fact that he had to borrow three pound 80 off to buy a pint so he's actually uh perhaps through as you suggest perhaps through no fault of his, he's the victim of a really difficult childhood. He isn't a blustery, Mr Positive, let's all go down the boozer and sing, you know, sing sea shanties. No, they all say he's got no friends. Well, I'm a fan, and that should tell you something. Yeah, I don't trust anyone who's got no friends.

Well, I mean, oh gosh, now I'm beginning to feel sorry for the man. Right, let's move on then. Sorry, I shouldn't have planted that seed. And I never will do it again. I just wanted to have a brief mention for all these online conspiracy theories that we know were circulating. And let's be honest, I indulged in some of them too last week around the Princess of Wales.

And there's just a little article in The Guardian today about the theories have increased after she made that video statement. And as a very wise man, Kasim Kassam, who's a philosophy professor at Warwick University and a man who's an expert on conspiracy theories, said it was actually common for conspiracy theories to be fuelled by evidence that discounts them. Gosh.

That's the problem. He says they can't be stopped because evidence against them is treated. That's the problem. He says they can't be stopped because evidence against them is treated as part of the conspiracy and that is why they are so resilient. That's extraordinary, isn't it? Yeah, and that just proves that there is nothing that you can do to stop this twaddle circulating. And that's sort of, it does make sense

because if you think of, you think of what Donald Trump is doing in terms of talking about it's all a conspiracy against him and that has only increased since he's been voted out of office. And gosh, how terrifying. So how can we roll back any of this? We can't. We can't. And actually speaking of which,

Donald Trump's Stormy Daniels hush money trial starts on April 15th. Have you heard from your friend Stormy at all? Yeah. Have you? Yeah, we're in touch. How is she? She's OK. She's OK.

I think has obviously got mixed feelings about having to stand trial, wants to stand trial. In what sense is she standing trial? She's giving evidence. She's going to give evidence. So she's not on trial. No, no, no. She'll be wants to stand trial. In what sense is she standing trial? She's giving evidence. She's going to give evidence. So she's not on trial. No, no, no. She'll be part of the trial.

Yeah, OK. So she has been prepped by the New York prosecution team. So she's going to potentially give evidence. He has pushed back against her giving evidence. Yeah, because she's no fool, is she? No, and other people involved in the trial. She doesn't know when she'll be called yet because it really depends how long it takes.

But I think, yeah, it's going to be blockbuster. I don't think we'll... I mean, it's hard to imagine what it's going to be like watching that trial because it will be... There will be cameras. Yeah, OK. Well, Mark, put a note in your diaries uh april the 15th there will be full coverage on times radio i can guarantee that

okay um we have got a lot to get through the interview in this edition of off-air is with adi adepitan who is a former paralympian and um a british a british man who has competed for team gb at quite a number of Paralympics. But he's also now a documentary maker. And he has been to this extraordinary place in South Africa. And we'll hear what he has to say about his time in a whites-only Afrikaner town near the Orange River. I mean, I think he was extremely brave to go there. It took a lot of organising.

And he spent a week with them. And, well, I mean, he tries to navigate their world. Pretty difficult thing to do and he comes across some extraordinarily ignorant people. That sounds terrifying. It is. I think for him it must.

I can't imagine what it was like for him but I think it was properly weird. Anyway, it's on all four that documentary so you should look it up definitely because it's properly interesting. Now, what have you got there, Jane? I would like to start with this email from Nadia from Balham, who might be known to me in my real life. Now, Balham, I always remember the Monty Python film,

Balham, Gateway to the South. The only thing that Monty Python ever did that I found funny. It's changed a lot i would just like to say on behalf of ballam okay yeah so this is in relation to the garrett club stories which obviously we've heard about recently um lots of prominent men uh having to pull out other prominent men continuing to be members including some people in the world of journalism anyway a lot of high profile this is the one that John Sokol has just joined and says he'll bring about change from the inside.

From within. Oh, hello. Heard that one before, Sokol. Yeah, I've tried that one as well, John. Yeah. Anyway, Nadia, who's not a member of the Garrett Club, says, when I was researching a biography of A.A. Milne, I spent months trying to persuade the librarians

of the Garrett Club to allow me in their private archives. Milne visited the club every week for years, and on his death had bequeathed not only a large sum of money, but also some original manuscripts and letters, including one recommending his son, Christopher Robin, for membership. Eventually, after much wrangling, I was granted access. I was met by a lovely and very helpful gloved librarian who brought me the documents I wanted to see

and let me stay all afternoon. But when I needed the toilet, I had to be escorted in case I was seen by the gentleman librarian who brought me the documents i wanted to see and let me stay all afternoon but when i needed the toilet i had to be escorted in case i was seen by the gentleman having lunch because what they wouldn't be familiar with the concept of a woman going to the lavatory every time the librarian had to wait silently outside my cubicle in case anyone saw a lone lady wandering the corridors unsupervised. Imagine. Yeah. I put them off their Dover sole.

It's hilarious. I don't get it. And I am... I'd like to know, Nadia, did you try and effect any change from within that day? Yeah, I'm sure. Well, that day she will. Well, just by the mere act of a woman going to the loo,

she brought about some... But I was worried last week that I couldn't get as aerated by this story as I thought I should. Am I wrong just to be... Because I slightly take the view, well, have your stupid club if you want to, but then you realise, no,

because it was never an equal play, it was never a level playing field and these men had enormous influence. And certainly for many, many, many decades that place was up and running, women had enormous influence yeah and certainly for many many many decades that that place was up and running women had no influence at all so how do you feel about women only clubs well that's where i come unstuck a bit and i think that's why i'm somewhat ambivalent i'm not sure do you believe in women only clubs i'm not sure well on the basis that men only clubs exist then i suppose i do but i'm not I suppose I do. But I've never joined...

I've never seen the point. I've never joined a women-only club either. Well, obviously I couldn't join a men-only club, I've got to be realistic about that. There was a moment, I would say five or six years ago, when I was living in New York and there was a real burgeoning of these women-only clubs. There was The Wing, which is a really high-profile one,

and actually Stormy Daniels and I did a thing together. I moderated an appearance for her at The Wing in DC. And it was incredibly high-end. It had sort of these, you know, blow-dry bars and sort of, you know, it was this... And I think that that's the thing that I also found a little bit difficult about it was it wasn't inclusive in any way because it was incredibly expensive to join.

It was probably, you know, as much as much as joining say her house or something so it wasn't increasing diversity you know of access to anything it was just a lot of rich middle-class women all going to a nice place to do some you know to do some remote working and then have a blow dry i mean did you maybe help each other out scratch each other's back i mean i wasn't a member so i don't know but i just the idea of joining anything that exclusive particularly gender-based is just strange to me i don't know why i'd want to be somewhere that exclude men no i mean you know apart from the changing rooms at marks and spencer's that's about it um gosh do you know i'm so bad in changing rooms i always just buy things and then regret it It's a great strategy for life

Do you take them back or do you just regret them at the back of the wardrobe? Never hire me as your stylist Actually I've got a very good friend who if I'm ever going to a function she is a stylist and she will come with me and help me find something that is actually because it's not easy when you're my height. No, you need a personal shopper to get the high things down for you as well.

Well, partly that, yes. Thank you, Jane. No, she's very good. But we were talking about the Masons, and actually this is not unconnected to the Garrett Club and men-only spaces. This is a good one from Catherine, who says... Oh, I love this email. Yeah, I'm sure you've had lots of emails far more enlightening

we haven't Catherine I thought I would share my experience as a waitress for the Freemasons about 20 years ago the Masons Hall was next door to my postgraduate halls of residence and was the subject of much discussion in our communal student kitchen when a notice for waiting staff wanted went up at the Masonic Lodge

I had a nose around on the pretext of picking up an application form. I was interviewed on the spot, though, and despite my protestations that I couldn't possibly carry three plates at once, Pam gave me three plates, watched me walk around the room, and promptly hired me. The job was largely standard waitressing, plus ornamental wallflower services. I love that.

That's incredible. After serving food, we were supposed to just stand unobtrusively in the banqueting hall, alert to any minor dining emergency, a lack of condiments, additional water required, etc. But otherwise, stand entirely still and silent. We would then be dismissed from the room before the ceremonial activities began and recalled when the pudding was to be served.

So I didn't know that. They had the ceremonial before the pudding. when the pudding was to be served. So I didn't know that. They had the ceremonial before the pudding. That's interesting, isn't it? On one occasion, a fellow waitress and I had apparently become so adept at being unobtrusive that the masons had begun to sing their ceremonial songs while we were still in the room. This is entirely against protocol.

And we absolutely panicked and looked aghast across the hall to each other. Never have I tried so hard to blend into flocked wallpaper. Certain I'd be fired on the spot when our presence was noticed. As soon as the first song ended and the toast to absent members completed, my hapless colleague and I left the room as swiftly as possible. Given that I never intended to interview for the job, never mind get it, it would have been no hardship

if I'd been fired. But actually, I went on to waitress in some of their more senior halls while completing my studies. There's a seniority based on Greek pillars. Ionic, Doric and Corinthian. I love that detail. God knows. From an entirely selfish perspective,

it was notable that tips were excellent when the masons had their men-only weekly meals. You could make a third of your night's pay again in tips. However, no one wanted to work on the family or wives' nights when in the absence, or in the presence rather, of their significant others, the tips dried up entirely. Make of that what you will, says Catherine. Make of that what you will, says Catherine. Well, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, Catherine. You don't tell us whether your association,

your brushing up against the Masons has served you well in life. Are you now a leading member of the judiciary? I can never say that. Judiciary. Or do you work elsewhere in life? Let us know. Or are you a Corinthian waitress? Are you? Did you have a waitress? No, because my lack of motor skills prevents it. My youngest daughter is a member of the waitressing community.

And I would say she was overburdened with skills in that department. I don't think that's a problem. I think charm goes a long way. Well, you don't know she's got any. She's relatively genial. I mean, she does all right. But it's hard work, isn't it? It is hard. I spent years and years waitressing.

I loved it, actually. I think it's a bit like journalism. You just sort of chat a bit, put people at ease, drop some potatoes. I've never chatted or put people at ease. Is that where I've gone wrong? I had to do silver service waitressing. Yeah, is that the three plates? Three plates up my arm.

And they're not very long arms. I had a lot of burns just there the sort of bottom of my bicep but um i agree with katherine about the tips so i used to waitress for a lot of weddings at a sort of hotel that i worked at and men at weddings would tip heavily uh especially if you were working on the bar just saying right just that old uh give me tip you the wink before they give you a tip and say, have one for yourself. Have one for yourself, love. Have one for yourself, love. Yeah.

I loved Waitress. Because Boris Johnson wouldn't do that, would he? Well, no, because he'd have to borrow money off Jennifer and Corey, according to the documentary. I don't imagine him as being a generous tipper. Sorry, that's casting enormous aspersions. But he just, it was saying. Kat says, Gino De Campo has never been on my radar

until I heard for the interview. And I found him a really difficult person to listen to. I've actually toned that down, what she actually said. You've toned it right down. He came across as entirely disconnected from any individual's experience except his own. Yes, I'll certainly give you that, Kat, because he did seem a man who was living his best life. Singularly.

Singularly. And what impact that had on his nearest and dearest didn't seem to especially concern him. But look, we don't know the other side of the story. It may very well be that his other half is delighted to see him go. Have we heard from her yet? Not yet. I'll call out to see if Mrs. De Campo might like to come and give her perspective. We've put out a plea, but as yet, no word.

But she's probably, look, she's probably happy as well. She's having her six months off, right? Well, that's what I mean. From him, potentially. Anyway, as the non-wife or girlfriend attendee to a Freemasons dinner in 2009, I've got some experience to offer here, says Kat. I was 17 and my date, the Freemason, was 28. He did have a girlfriend, but it wasn't me. I was a troubled young person and thankful for the attention and the free booze. And actually, that feels sad now.

I'm afraid I don't remember a lot, so I can't help with any juicy details. But do find or try to find the divorcee of a Freemason i bet there'll be some good stuff right well if that's you you can write and we will of course protect your anonymity it's jane and fiat times dot radio so we'd like to hear from mrs decampo and some divorced freemason wives um can i just uh read this out from Ali and Candy? This comes from, actually, Ali has sent the email. He's an expat living in the US and her sister is visiting from the UK. They've been talking about you and Fee all week because they both bond over your podcast

and it makes us feel like we have friends in common, they say. So they're driving along, thinking about you, talking about you, and then a truck stopped in front of us at the lights and its number plate, which they sent a picture of, says off-air. So... Do you think it's Fee on her holidays? No, because she's sticking around.

I know where she is and she's not there. She's not in Nevada. She isn't. In our hearts she might be, but she's not. That is quite frightening. Yeah. And yesterday I interviewed a UFO author, Richard Lawrence. I remember the name.

I filed it away for future reference because I want him back, basically, because he was sort of squeezed into the end of the programme, but he was just talking about extraterrestrial life and how the Pentagon has now officially dismissed any suggestion of extraterrestrial life. Yeah, exactly. Because you believe in them don't you no well he was just their their explanation uh which richard does not entirely

buy was that they were just experimenting with um military technology which they're not at liberty to completely divulge the details of as yet and that's why there were so many sightings of so called ufos back in the day and apparently they have calmed down a bit. You don't hear so much about it. Or it may be just that E.T. has been a few times and thought, I despair and I'm not going to bother going back there. Found a better planet. Yeah, that is distinctly possible, isn't it?

Anyway, I don't know. But that was just, it reminded me of that. A spooky happening. So last week on the live show on Thursday, we were talking about doodles because of the piece we had in the magazine about the rise of the doodle, the crossbreed. And we've got a lovely picture here of Willow, a golden doodle.

Willow does look absolutely delightful. Absolutely stunning. That is a lady dog, isn't it? It's a lady dog, Willow. She was bred by a recognised breeder from a golden retriever mum and a standard poodle dad. I love standard poodles. Oh, they're the big ones.

I love them. I saw an enormous poodle the other day in the park. It's as big as me. Oh, there was a standard poodle on my train the other day and he was so lovely. He was so well behaved. He'd lay under the table. Anyway, so this is Willow.

Willow's parents had excellent hip and eye scores according to their breed standard. So our listener says, oh, Susan, presumably she's pretty healthy and carefully bred, more so than the recent French bulldog we know from Crufts, for example, that his breads have virtually no snout or nostrils, which Susan says is cruel and in no way healthy.

Susan says, I'm not a snob in the dog breeding world and I can't understand why my crossbreed is any less healthy than any other. My sister had two retrievers who both died young as well as a lab who sadly suffered the most awful arthritis from a young age. You can't guarantee the health of any dog, but knowing the good health history of my dog's parents

has been at least a positive in Willow's life so far. Perhaps we should just call them crossbreeds and stop all the ridiculous prejudice. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, Willow's life so far. Perhaps we should just call them crossbreeds and stop all the ridiculous prejudice. Yeah. So, yeah. I mean, Willow looks lovely. Seems to be happy and healthy. Yeah.

It's a funny thing, isn't it, about the sort of prejudice and snobbery about, well, pure breeds and no crossbreeds. I don't get it. No. I mean, if you want a dog, you want a dog. Well, I think partly it's because they've become sort of status symbols, haven't they?

You know, there's certain dogs that are fashionable, which want a dog. Well, I think partly it's because they've become sort of status symbols, haven't they? You know, there's certain dogs that are fashionable, which is a terrible thing, because it's a... I was going to say it's a person, it's not a person, it's a dog, but it is a creature. It's like in the 70s, people lusting after a ceramic hob. Mind you, you couldn't take that out for a walk, could you? Before we hear from Addy,

quick email from Leah, who says yes to Jane and Fee tea towels. We've been looking for some merchandise and I think it is high time that we had something to hurl in out there. Yes to your tea towels, says Leah, but do be sure to test them for absorbency first. She's been through a harrowing experience herself. Listen to this.

I bought one from the Royal Horticultural Society once and I might as well have tried to dry the pots with a shower curtain. Leah, I'm so sorry. Deary, deary. I hope you've had someone to talk to you about that, Leah. Yes, I really hope. Cancelling is available. Cheer things up before we move on to your interview.

This is from Nella in Tobmodern. She says, I too am extremely dubious about the efficacy or indeed likelihood of flying taxis, but if there were any, surely they'd be called floobers. Oh, very good. Which is a lovely name. I'd like to catch a floober.

And I think, I've decided to be more positive about flying taxis. I'd like to think that my grandchildren will be going around London in floobers. In floobers? Yeah, that would be excellent. A floober future. Yeah. Possibly. Will they be completely without drivers

or will they have robot pilots what do you think flubers yeah i think flubers won't have drivers no drivers at all no because that would be a lot of helicopter piloting wouldn't it i think i just think no there'll be sort of like jetpacks, but car versions. I'm going to stop you there, Jane, because I sense neither of us know what we're talking about. But it's been a joy. Any views on flubers? Do let us know. God, help us out here. Jane and Fee at times.radio. Email special coming your way tomorrow.

Now let's listen to Adi Adepitan. And apartheid was abolished in South Africa in the early 1990s. But you might not know that the country does have one whites-only town. It's called Orania. Now, the black British TV presenter and Team GB Paralympian, Adi Adepitan, has been there to make a documentary for Channel 4 called Whites Only, Adi's Extremist Adventure. It's on all four now. Let's just have a listen to a short clip from the documentary. All over the world... ..right-wingers are preaching separatism. We will get our borders back.

And war is being waged on multiculturalism. I've always maintained multiculturalism doesn't work. Build that wall! But in South Africa, they've gone one step further... Welcome to Ndanya. ...and built a white-only town. I'm Adi Adepitan. What's up, boss?

Proud British Nigerian. I was surrounded by racist murderers from the apartheid regime. What kind of twisted thinking is that? Just a short extract from Whites Only Adi's extremist adventure. I asked him about this town, Orania. It has a population of around about 3,000 people and it's very close to the Orange River.

Yeah, it's the central to the Orange River. quite tumbleweed and if you want to paint a picture in your mind it'd be kind of like what you'd imagine the wild west to be you know those old wild west cowboy movies with you know a few trees here and there but they've um started uh they've they've built a pipeline um which uh they've connected to i think the orange river and it basically irrigates quite a large part of the um of the town um it's it's a small area at the moment but they're hoping to increase up to 30,000 residents there um and to basically take over an area the size of England um yes I mean there's some way off that aren't they um yes how many people are there now 3,000 they? Yes. How many people are there now? 3,000. I think about 3,000 people are there now. And it was set up in 1990 by the son-in-law of Henrik Vervoet, the architect of apartheid.

And then it had its biggest influx in 1994 I believe and I kind of look at those two dates and think you know what's the significance 1990 the end of apartheid 1994 Nelson Mandela becomes president and so to me it said something as to suddenly why a group of Afrikaners would want to create their own stronghold in that period of flux, of real flux for not only South Africa, but for also the people who used to own all the power in South Africa. How do you get to live there? So you have to pass a test. Yeah, you have to pass a test in Africana culture in the language you have to do kind of like an entrance exam and they say it's open to everyone and they say anyone or anyone can can can take the test and could become a resident of Orania.

But when you look at the makeup of the town, it's all white and all Africana. So they're out to create a monoculture. Yeah. And it's quite troubling. I mean, some of these people are, at least initially, and perhaps superficiallyially friendly towards you. At least that's what we see in the film. Was that how you felt that they were friendly enough? No, I mean, look, a lot of the people there and they all have their different reasons and their different angles.

But they really believe in Aranya. And if you really believe in something you want to, however, even if you think down, you know, it's probably flawed. You always want to present the shiniest face to people. So everyone was on their best behavior. It was a PR game. And I mean, I'm not naive. I know what the game was as to basically show me me that this place works and um you know some of the things they would say was you know a lot of south africa is ridden with crime and they've created a place that is crime free um they've created a place where afrikaners can prosper and grow and and their culture can thrive and all of that and And so, yeah, they want to show these white picket fences and these really happy families and stuff like that. It was kind of

almost Stepford Wives-esque. But what is undeniable is that South Africa is a troubled country. There is corruption. There are power cuts, for example. The crime rate is through the roof. That's quite a difficult thing to argue with them about, isn't it? Because I suppose, crudely, they've got a point. I'm not arguing with them about it at all. No, I think they're absolutely right but um i think where the flaw in their argument for me is you know any country that has been under a brutal regime of apartheid

separating um people due to ethnicity creating i forget what it's called it was like the bantu law which uh meant that black children or black kids going to schools with black kids in it, their education was suppressed. So they didn't learn in the same way as the white kids. When you suppress a majority group of a country for so long, when you push all the wealth to a small minority for so long. How can you not expect a country to be in this array? And to me, the Afrikaners played a massive part in why South Africa is where it is today. And rather than shy away and create your own stronghold and sit

there and start pointing fingers and saying, look, look how bad these people are. Look, they can't run the country properly. Why don't you go and help try and help fix what you broke? Yeah, well, what is really troubling about their approach is that they've completely closed in on themselves, haven't they? And I was, as you must have been, deeply troubled by this golden boy, young man, isn't there, who's very important. Yeah, very important at the school, star of the play, which we'll talk about in a minute, which was just awful. But also somebody who freely admitted that he didn't know much about Nelson Mandela. Yeah. Absolutely extraordinary.

Yeah. Do you know what? I mean, look, the kids were really interesting and I think children are interesting because they are, they're innocent in essence when they grow up, they're empty vessels

and, you know, they become or are moulded into who the adults or the leaders of society want them to be um so i don't really have any problems or grudges with with villain because he's still at a really young age where he is figuring things out and if you're in a monoculture if you're surrounded by only one sort of idea or ideology how else is he going to think they're not really looking on the internet and looking outside i i do sort of sometimes think maybe he was playing a little bit of a game with the whole nelson mandela stuff and he probably knew a little bit more than he wanted to own up to. But I think he would have.

I think he realised in the sort of chess game that if we'd gone there, he might have had to try and say some positive things about Nelson Mandela. And the easy way not to say anything positive about him is to claim you don't know him at all. Got you. OK. What about that school play then? Because you attended, I think it was a rehearsal of this extravaganza, which was so crude and he played the lead role. But just explain the plot, if you can call it that. Basically, this play was about, I think it's a group of fair-haired villagers who are fighting off or outwitting their neighbours who are dark, ape-like type people. And the fair-haired villagers or the fair-haired group always seem to succeed and win and humiliate their darker looking neighbours.

And, you know, the significance is really there. You don't need to delve too deep into that to understand what they were trying to say. Do you know what the rest of white South Africa makes of Irania? So Kniells, who's my fixer, he was my partner, the guy who traveled around with me. He'd spent months trying to secure our access to Iran. He thought it was bonkers. He's a white Afrikaner. The crew, pretty much the majority of my crew were all white Afrikaners and they just thought the place was mad and you could feel their unease at what was happening here these guys have wanted to recreate a snapshot in time and it's a time where they were in power where they dominated and they controlled everything

and that's what they want to keep and maintain here in Iran. And I feel the Afrikaners that I was with, they were quite progressive. You know, they wanted to move on. They wanted, there's a lot of pain amongst people in South Africa. They know deep down, if you are an oppressor, you know, the oppressors also are scarred by what they do, even if they don't know it. And I think the the Afrikaners who I was working with, they knew what was going on wasn't right and wasn't working. And so when they see what's happening in Iran, it makes them feel uneasy, really uneasy.

So you have had some criticism that perhaps you were too accepting. I mean, I'm not sure I entirely agree because I think your mere presence there was, first of all, a brave thing to do. But it was it was a challenge enough in itself, perhaps you could say. I mean, what do you think about that? Yeah, no, I read some of the the those criticisms and i was slightly baffled by it you know when you make a tv show then the holy grail of tv shows like this is access um it's without access you have no show and you have to really walk a tightrope and a thin line between trying to make sure you don't antagonise the people that you're with so much so that they kick you out. You know, because if they if I could have gone in guns blazing really hard, you know, about talks and really sort of attacked them. And there were moments like

that which we chose not to put in the show. But also they don't move anywhere. It doesn't go anywhere. I'd be a pretty arrogant person to feel like, just because I'm a journalist who's head front

in this show, that I could go in here and break down hundreds of years of indoctrination through my clever questioning and my anger. You know, that's a lot of arrogance to think so. And I also have to think of the safety of my crew. You know, we're 60 miles away from the nearest town. This town is full of people with guns. away from the nearest town. This town is full of people with guns. So I have to kind of walk that tightrope of, you know, not trying to antagonise them, but also trying to progress the story.

I went in there because we felt there's a growth of right wing ideology all over the world. You know, more and more people are talking about monocultures, talking about the breakdown of multiculturalism, the way that multiculturalism isn't working. And we went there to kind of look and understand how people can be sort of indoctrinated into this and what makes it tick and to see what we in the UK can learn from it. And just on that note about the world becoming a more right wing place in certain aspects.

I mean, that's quite clear. You do say at one point that there's a belief that some Trump associated supporters have backed Iran. I mean, do you have evidence of that? Well, I think our research team were looking to see how Iran was funded. And I think that certain groups that are championed and supported by Trump that are funding Iran. So I'm not saying this is Trump is directly funding Iran. But he's definitely supporting the groups with his voice. And it feels like Iran is being used as a test case to see whether this will work. They they these right wing groups want Iran to succeed because if it succeeds, then they can then go back into their countries and say, see, look, it works here.

We can bring this. We need to close our walls in the US, close our walls in the UK, close our walls in France and in Russia. And for me, it's a dangerous place. The human race, homo sapiens have succeeded when we have been able to build on other cultures, merge and blend other cultures. And yes, there's always a shake up and there's a stir up where people clash and they don't often agree with each other. But that disagreement then leads to something new and something fresh.

We can't stay in the same position. We've got many, many bigger challenges that we're going to have to face as a human race. And in order to do that, we have to be in the best place possible. And right-wing monoculture does not prepare us for what the future lays for the human race if we want to survive into the next thousand years. That adi adepitan and his documentary which is on all four is whites only adi's extremist adventure it's really hard in a way to watch that actually jane but it's because adi is and he i mean as we acknowledge in that conversation some of the critics have been i think a bit hard on him for not challenging the crazy people in the town as much as he, in their view, should have done. But I'm just not sure it was going to be possible to carry on filming whilst really, really putting them to the sword in terms of the kind of nonsense they were talking about.

The worst bit for me was the incredibly privileged young man who was very much the golden boy of the town. And I think the grandson of one of the founders who just said that he just didn't know much about Nelson Mandela. Wow. And, you know, you... And Addy is really circumspect about that and says, well, you know, I've cut him some slack because he was only 18.

And, of course... And in a sense we are all the children of our parents and we are exposed in some ways to their views and their experiences and until you get to a certain age you probably don't challenge them although I've got to say I was challenging my own parents long before I was 18 about everything I was gonna say yeah me too not necessarily just on their views and politics but um you know trying to get out the house yeah well all of those things I was very happy in the house, me too. Not necessarily just on their views on politics, but, you know, trying to get out the house, basically. Yeah, well, all of those things. I was very happy in the house.

In fact, my mother says that I would turn people away. Well, when I finish the Boris Johnson... I don't want to play out. When I finish Boris Johnson's Rise and Fall, I'm looking forward to the fall bit, I'm going to look at Addy's documentary. It sounds amazing. Yeah, I think people should watch it,

but it's not a comfortable watch. The worst episode of the Boris programme, it's almost like we're slightly obsessed with the man, but we need to be over it, by the way. If you're listening outside the UK, I think we're still processing the Boris Johnson show. I think that's one of the problems. But the episode that ends with his, let's face it,

quite astonishing election victory in 2019. And I barely remember the December of 2019 because it's been completely eclipsed by January, February, March, April and May of 2020. But there was such optimism in the air. They thought they were on the cusp of achieving great things. And then, of course, the shit show that was the pandemic um unfold and just collapsed and everybody just went slightly yeah so the other thing is i'm a bit worried that we're never going to be able to process it completely because they're bringing him back for the boris tour to try and get them you know out of the hole they're in for this election he's going to campaign

for rishi sunak i mean mean, that's... I mean... Do that big bread thing again. And that is desperation in its most naked form. So the man who you're constantly terrified might try and keep taking your job again, but you just come back and campaign because we've got no other answers. That's the view of Jane Mulkerins.

Now, actually, I'm now in a position where I can just agree with you. I used to have to say, but it's not my opinion. Anyway, thank you, Jane. We are back on Wednesday with an email special, and we cannot thank you enough for all the brilliant stories. Keep them coming at janeandfee at times.radio. My guest on Thursday, I think you'll enjoy hearing from her, is the Reverend Kate Botley.

And she's really thoughtful about aspects of Easter and some of her own life challenges. So I think people will enjoy that. And that's coming up on Thursday afternoon and indeed on Off Air. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us

every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly.

Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.