Off Air... with Jane and Fi - 60 is just a number and a Freedom Card (with Tom Bower)

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Jane and Fi are about to break up for their summer holidays but there's much to cover before that... In this episode Jane and Fi discuss funeral flowers, Dora's needs and Colin and Connie. Plus, Mystic Garv makes one more appearance before Jane goes on her holidays... Sit tight for that.Also, Jane speaks to biographer and journalist Tom Bower about his new book 'The House of Beckham: Money, Sex and Power'.Our next book club pick has been announced! 'Missing, Presumed' is by Susie Steiner.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I don't know. I mean, I think sexism plays a part because there is a Connie, but I've never fancied a Connie. I've always gone for a Connie. No, I've never fancied a Connie. A Connie just seems like something of a statement cake. It's a bit try-hard. Sorry, Connie. So this is the last live edition. Can you have a live edition of the podcast?

I mean, we're alive, we're doing this. Just about. No, you can't, but this is the last podcast before we go away. Yes, because you're going to get some pre-recorded stuff shoved at you in the feed next week. But this is our final day before we take a little bit of a holiday break jane is well you're going to immerse yourself in the football and sit on your astro turf yeah i

am i've picked a great week for a staycation uh because the weather is is really looking up in the southeast it's going to be really nice i know you're going somewhere even hotter um but yes i'm looking forward to it because really we need to put some more pep in our step for the excitement of the election, which will be hoving into view when we get back to work. It will. So you can watch the men's Euros. You can keep across all of the election stuff.

And you'll be having a lovely week doing that. And I am heading off into the slightly hotter Europe. Do you know what? I've got some friends who are in Sicily at the moment. Oh, yeah. Gosh. Is it incredibly hot there? It's really, really hot.

But Sicily's having such a huge problem with tourists visiting because their water supply is really minimal. They've got terrible leakage problems. And crops have really, really failed because of the drought that they've had there so when tourists turn up you know they they we carry with us an expectation don't we if we're going to check into a hotel we want to be able to take a shower if we're checking into an airbnb you know we do expect to turn on the taps and for everything to work and they are turning tourists

away in large parts of sicily because they just say, you know, we can't open this facility. The water is ours first. I'm kind of with them on that. Well, I totally get that. I think we're on the cusp of something here, aren't we? Because there are lots of alarming stories about people really suffering in the heat, going missing on walks, for example.

Just too many of these stories at the moment. And I think perhaps we just need more education on how you deal with extreme heat. In this country, we are so fortunate. I know we complain, but on the whole, on the whole, in average summer, you might get a couple of days of 26, mightn't you? And you'll complain about that,

like I can't sleep at night and all that stuff. But actually, we don't have extremes of heat. No, I think it's a really good point. The old adage is mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun. So we've obviously never been very good at heat. Presumably, that's a phrase that came from us and our colonial expansion and heading off into parts of the world

that we probably shouldn't have gone to. But I think you're right. I think the first time that you encounter extreme heat, you wouldn't really know what your body is doing in order to counter it. So that confusion with heat stroke, the fact that you do need to be drinking kind of four times as much as you would usually drink in a day, just the fact you shouldn't be moving around.

We possibly, you know, lots of people don't know that at all. Well, we need to start learning it. We've got a heat expert on the live show today. When do we do our live show, Jane? Thanks for asking. It's Monday to Thursday on Times Radio, 2 o'clock till 4. It's so stuffed with content because, let's be honest, there's no shortage of activity

in the world right now and we'd love you to join us you can also take part there's a whatsapp number so you can chip in with your comments and indeed your criticisms quite a few people do that we don't read those things we do we take them home with us and we take them into our hearts and we have a cry we actually love it uh And the Times Radio app is also completely free and you can listen to Times Radio and all its podcast content on that app. It's great. Well, that's what I'll be doing next week. Of course.

On the beach. Now, what are the parish notices? Oh, gosh, parish notices. Well done. Right, crack into them. Totes. Right. Do you want to do the list of totes?

I'll do the first few. Okay. Do we read out all the surnames and everything? It identifies these people as listeners, and they might want to be anonymous. They have been contacted. They have been contacted, so they know. I think we'll just do the first names, just in case.

I just copy and pasted. Did you, darling? She just copy and pasted. Well, she's a busy woman. It's not like it's a list of shame. Well, it might be. These people could be living, you know, they're trying to get on with their lives they don't want their neighbors to know they listen to our fair what if their neighbors also listen they're just about to get an enormous

bag with our great big muggins oh yeah you're actually right lisa mulhern uh marcia jackson julia jones katherine lane surf and katherine's husband you do the rest eleanor baldwin diana williams kath m McCannany. I'm sorry if I pronounced that incorrectly. Philippa Rowe, Philippa's mother. And Frank J. Zarbo. Now, Frank, mate, you're the only one to put a middle name and an initial in there.

What's the J for? I think we need to I suspect it's James. I know he was the listener who emailed from Ireland. I think he was finishing off his doctorate or hoping to. Anyway, what a wonderful thing to have an academic person listening to the pod. Thank you. And we very much hope you enjoy your totes when they arrive.

And just as a point of note, thank you very much indeed to everyone for getting in touch about getting a tote. We are storing all of your emails and we're going to continue awarding them once we're back from holiday. So if you're not in this week's selection then fear not uh poor old eve she's turned into a packer of envelopes and she's got a degree in everything so just slow down on the totes kids another couple of things worth mentioning the book club book is missing presumed it is by suzy ste Steiner, S-T-E-I-N-E-R. We're going to congregate to discuss that at the end of July.

And our live event with the Reverend Richard Coles in Sheffield, that was a couple of weeks ago, is going to be available in two parts next week in our holiday period. So hope you enjoy that. And Richard was great, wasn't he? So I think people will enjoy it. I'm sure they will.

Now, we've got quite a lot of happy birthday to you yes and i just want to say thank you for that but we've probably i mean in the nicest possible way i'm not bored with my birthday far from it but i sense other people might be so thank you all for taking the time really appreciate it and i'm particularly grateful to those people who are also 60 who just said oh you know i'm kind of with you and it's good and it's also makes it does make you reflect there's just no getting away from that so think it must do jane i just think it must be different to that turning of other decades in your life and it's just um you know you're here that that is just a i'm very much here no but you know what i mean no i do i 100 do and And as we've got older, you know

that not everyone has had your good fortune. So, dig in and get on. Can I just do a couple of ones because some of them are quite funny. This one's from Carol who says, thank you for the many hours of interesting programmes and fun. I've laughed out loud many times, but none more so than this week. You are giddy

on the fact that Jane is about to reach 60. Very happy birthday to you and enjoy every moment. It's downhill from now on. No, I'm kidding. I thought 30 was the worst change of age. Now 60 is just a number and a freedom card. I'm almost mid 70s and cycling, exercising, playing physically with grandchildren. When they say race you goddy, I wish I didn't take them up on it as my knees aren't as young as they are in my head. But that's the only drawback. You'll rock it, Jane. Enjoy every moment.

And then Carol ends with a PS. What is Collins? Is this your local patisserie? Oh, that's lovely. It isn't, but Fee has been very generous, as I have to say she often is. And has brought in today, brought in a Colin cake and not just one, two boxes of Colin's offspring. Basically, little mini roll Collins.

Mini roll Collins. I think they look good. It's not a patisserie. It's a large chocolate caterpillar made by a well-known British high street store, much cherished in offices and workplaces up and down the land when a birthday comes round. How do you think it's come to pass that Colin is the go-to cake of the office? I don't know. I mean, I think sexism plays a part because there is a Connie, but I've

never fancied a Connie. I've always gone for a Connie. I've never fancied a Connie. A Connie just seems like something of a statement cake. A bit try-hard. Sorry, Connie. It's something of a statement cake. It's a bit try-hard. Sorry, Connie.

This, I'm going to read this because it's funny. Laura T says, the other day you read an email from a listener who talked about funny labels she saw on some clothing. This brought to mind a funny product label I ran into a short time ago in Canada because we have two official languages. All products must be labelled in both languages. A few weeks ago, I popped into my local dollar store

to buy some inexpensive flowers to make some Frida Kahlo-inspired headbands. Wow. I mean, that could stop there as just an email of note. Thank you for telling us. Below is a photo of the label on a cluster of silk chrysanthemums. As you see, in addition to English and French, the label also has a description in Spanish.

The friends for who I was making the headbands and I had a good laugh at the description, which says the flowers are a mum bush. Thank you very much. Jane and Fee at Timestop Radio. Are they not my favourite flower? I'm not keen on chrysanthemums. Well, I think there's a bit of a thing about them, isn't there?

My mum wouldn't really have them in the house because she said they were funeral flowers. Oh, I thought lilies were widely regarded as the flower of the morning. Well, lilies are blooming everywhere now, aren't they? Yeah, I don't like lilies. I don't think cats are good with lilies, are they? So we don't have lilies. No.

What is Dora's favourite sniff of a petal? Well, she'll have anything at all if she can knock over the vase, the little shit. So I got some beautiful flowers from work yesterday. Thanks, everybody. And, of course, she's already had a go at making merry with them in the vase. So I've had to lock them in my bedroom. OK.

And shut the door. Do you think it's a bit of a protest because she's locked out of the rest of the house overnight? So she just, you know, by about three o'clock in the morning, she's bored. And she just walks over to the vase and just goes. But she did it in the evening before i'd gone to bed last night i don't understand what that was about i was perfectly companionable sitting watching the scotland game she could have been with me she chose to be in the other room knocking over vases it's up to her brian got stuck on the window ledge uh the other afternoon and it was quite lucky that somebody noticed he was making a terrible i mean he really can do a catawall.

Just the neediest meow ever. I mean really, really needy. And the kids when they hear him meow, I mean they absolutely adore him. Even they go, Brian shut up! Shut up Brian! But somebody who was walking past came to knock on the door and tell me that Brian was locked out on the window

ledge because he was making so much noise. Right. You're obviously very well known in your street. I felt like saying, you know, he's just difficult. He's just a difficult cat. Spend some time alone. He's all right. It's quite funny because I've got some decorators doing some work in my house at the moment and I had to have a conversation with the, they're both lovely, but with the decorator about the cat because I didn't want her to get out of a window or the front door because she is

incredibly dense and whilst I was having this exchange with the lead decorator Dora was sort of sitting very solemnly on the bottom of the stairs while I outlined her knees and there was just something very funny about it, I mean he was a nice guy and he's just recently lost his cat so

he's very sympathetic but it's just the way she sort a nice guy and he's just recently lost his cat. So he's very sympathetic. But it's just the way she sort of sat there, curiously compliant while I just said, you know, she's very silly and I just don't want her to go in the road. That's a bit like when you have to go

and see the headmistress with your parents. Yeah, it did have a flavour of exactly that. Yeah. Yeah, anyway. I think Doris should come on a holiday and meet Brian and Barbara.

I think they would make merry. I don't want that to happen. I do not want any of Brian's genes to end up anywhere near my little cat. This is from... Ooh! There's going to be no East London in my Dora. Well, I'll pass that on to Brian. I don't suppose it'll touch the sides of Brian.

Oh, by the way, I took the flowers home on the tube last night. You know when you get on, you always think, oh, God, it's going to be a bit embarrassing getting on the tube with a bouquet. It's quite a big bunch of flowers. But, of course, the great thing about the London public transport system is I could have made mad passionate love to a moose. Yeah, nobody looks up from their phones now.

Nobody gives a damn, do they? Why do we always have that? Oh my goodness, they'll all be, no, they're not! It's just extraordinary. Anyway, I wanted to read this, not just because it mentions our book, although it doesn't do it any harm.

It's from a listener who says, after your recent mention of your wonderful work, did I say that out loud on the podcast? I remembered how much I'd enjoyed it. One of the things I found really striking was your chapter on divorce. Now, at the time, I was deep in the trenches of a divorce, and I found this chapter actually very comforting. I've recently come to the end of the whole process. Now, whilst this is a good thing, I'm slightly overwhelmed at the prospect of a new

and hopefully more peaceful life. Without wishing to be too revealing, over the past five years I've navigated pregnancy, lockdown with a newborn, a protracted divorce as a result of discovering that the vast majority of my married life was based on a complicated deception and the loss of a small business I held very dear which was profitable, it was just that the practicalities didn't work in my post-separation life. So I'm on the other side of all this, and I can say that my time and mental energy is largely my own again, but I'm just a bit lost as to what to do with it. And she goes into more detail about just how she's feeling.

I am going to paraphrase, but just how fragile I think she's feeling right now. And I've just wondered whether anybody, and I'm sure there'll be great people out there, I think she's feeling right now. And I've just wondered whether anybody, and I'm sure there'll be great people out there, with just a bit of advice on how you do get through the next couple of years of this. Because obviously her child will not be very old now

if it was newborn during lockdown. So we're only talking two or three now, aren't we? So I just wish you all the very best. Thank you for mentioning the book. And I'm glad actually that chapter was of some comfort to you. But she does say my ex-husband has moved on to a new engagement with talk of further children. And I don't really know anyone else who is divorced. Perhaps I'm just not quite at that

stage of life. It's no comfort at all. But you will discover that there are more divorced people out there. And I have to tell you, there'll be more and more of them as the years go by. So don't be disheartened in that respect. But I do understand what she means. I think those couple of years or months after the process is over, you heave a big, big sigh of relief. But there are still plenty of challenges, aren't there? Enormous challenges.

And actually, my only, it's not really advice, it's just the telling of experience, isn't it? So it might not be the right thing for you. I think you really have to give in to exactly what you describe as that change in mental energy and capacity. Because I think for quite a while, I definitely just didn't have that. So I just had to recognise that I had to wind in So I just had to recognise that I had to wind in quite a lot of other bits of life in order to just let everything settle and just wait for it to settle in the way it wants to settle. You know, I think if you carry on trying to do all of the things

that you were doing before when you imagined yourself to be in a safe and solid relationship, I think if that's been ripped away from you... And that's a hell of a thing to happen by the way it is a huge thing to happen and i think if there's betrayal and deception involved it is really difficult because you do have to rework your own experience and that can be a very painful thing to do but i would say just do as little as possible just keep yourself happy number one keep yourself happy especially if you've got a baby or a tiny wee thing. Be a bit selfish about it and just see how things do settle.

They'll settle in a way that suits you. I mean, that is the plus side of divorce. You have yourself to answer to. And sometimes that can feel like a really lovely, relieving thing. It absolutely can. Just enjoy the wonderful feeling of putting, if you're lucky enough to have a house or a flat, whatever it might be, put the key in the door and enter that space.

Know that it's your own and just find your own peace within it. And as V says, just don't expect much of yourself, but enjoy what you enjoy. I would say, though, your kids were quite old when you got divorced. My kids were relatively old when... Well, my kids were relatively old when not really well mine no mine were really little but they weren't babies no they weren't babies but they were very

young but were they both in school both at primary school okay right i i think if you've got a little one who's with you all the time that's very different i might would also say uh don't fight shy of uh you know finding a a little bit of decent childcare so you can have some time on your own because obviously what you don't have is a partner who can take the baby or the toddler for a while so you can just, you know, have an hour off to go and do your own thing. I think that must feel very, it could feel quite claustrophobic. 100%. I mean, cut yourself some slack and just don't expect too much of yourself or of life just for a while.

You're also, you're entitled to a kind of period of mourning too. And your good mates should understand that and should be there for you. It's all about, I mean, you might find this hard to believe, but it is all about listening. So make sure your best mates do listen.

I'm sure they will. And a bit further down the line, come and have a drink with me and Garth. Get wellied. Wah! Can I just read this one? Because it's someone who wants to wish main Jane and her allegedly

attractive feet. It's a reality. There's no need to say allegedly here. It's a reality. She's got great feet. A very happy birthday. Also, can I just say I've also got the size that's really helpful in life five it just doesn't get any better than a size five foot why because you can get always get a pair of shoes in a size five always i put it to you that either a size three or a size nine or even a size 10 can be better because you always get sale shoes.

Right, well, there's going to be a fight about this. I'm going to take you outside. Anyway, Lorraine wants to wish your feet and main Jane a very happy birthday. And Lorraine is still in lowest oft. Now, that's not because she's upset to be... She's marooned in lowest oft. Lorraine's been in touch a few times. We always really love hearing from you.

I hope she's gotten over the Keir Starmer comment. I am sorry about that. Well, you know, it was about 25 past three I was thinking about that this morning. But I think I am almost over it now. He always reminds me of Imelda Staunton as the headmistress in Harry Potter, especially when he's frustrated.

I really understand what Lorraine means. I've never watched a Harry Potter, so what am I looking for here? Well, Imelda Staunton, so she's just quite kind of... There's a sense sometimes with Keir Starmer, other politicians are available, that he can be quite buttoned up. Yes. It's that, isn't it? But it's just a very good comparison

because I wouldn't have leapt across the genders to compare. Well, I don't think Imelda's going to be any more chuffed than I was, but thank you. And Lorraine says, I'm reading, sorry, I read Missing Presumed in 24 hours, ages since I've raced through a book that quickly, so thank you for the recommendation. I rarely read crime fiction, but this was very enjoyable.

I can't remember the name of the main character, but I really liked her. Manon. Yes, Manon Bradshaw. I'm all set for tote bags, thanks. Hope you all have a fantastic week off. Well, Lorraine, I'm really glad you enjoyed it. That is our book club. Now, the other day, we were having a little bit of a go, and quite

a few of you have emailed in about this, so apologies, about people abroad voting in the general election. We haven't got time to read all the emails we had on the subject, but I do appreciate the ones we've had. This listener is Debbie. She says, I'd like to say it's really not so unusual for nations to allow this. As a dual national currently living in Denmark, I'm obliged by law as an Australian citizen to vote in Australian elections unless I chose to officially remove myself from the role.

There are many countries in which the right of citizens to vote does not disappear when they move to another country. British citizens living abroad have many reasons to vote in British elections. For example, many of us have elderly parents, friends and family members in the UK who need access to good health and social care. I travel monthly to the UK to assist my elderly parents in this regard. I want to say in the issues that impact them and me in my support of them. So absolutely get it. Thank you very much for making that case. Yes, thank you. I concur. Thank you very much for making that case.

Yes, thank you. I concur. This comes from Jen, who says, contrary to the usual stories of blushing being related to social anxiety and the hope that once in your own power, blushing will stop, I was always an outgoing child who loved to chat to everybody and I grew up into a confident and articulate adult. In my current role as a senior leader and principal social worker, thank you, Jane, for your passionate defence of our often demonised profession.

You brought grateful tears to my eyes. I frequently have to present at events in front of hundreds of people and regularly have to meet and greet strangers and I never blush. But in my personal life, I've had many humiliating moments, including once accidentally

kissing neil kinnock on the lips she doesn't explain how that happened no and that that needs more jen that needs more and she goes on to say however often when i'm called to introduce myself at a small training event or gathering i blush so suddenly and profusely that i have to cover it up with a coughing fit pretending that i've got something caught in my throat the sheer randomness of these blushing fits makes me feel so embarrassed and uncomfortable there's never any sense of it creeping up just bam blush I'm entering perimenopause and actually look forward to hot flushes so I have something to blame the blushing on all the very best and enjoy your well-earned holly bobs jen's term band word and happy birthday jane so i'm uh i'm really interested to hear about that jen and i'm really

sorry as well because if you get no warning of it uh then is that better or worse i don't know i don't know that's a puzzler from my memory of hot flush, I don't think I went red but I felt I was going red. You feel like you're melting. Yeah. And I think the American term flash is better than flush because I think that's closer to the actual experience. Do you know what? Jen has actually used that term and I auto-corrected

it as I was reading. You did a bit of Brit-speak. I did, yep. I'm so sorry, Jen. Yes, I should hope so. Maybe Jen's American. That's possible. Well, I don't think she is because she says, Jane, you're a legend

around our way. I'm a Worcester resident. I don't think that's Worcester, USA. There are plenty of Worcesters in America. Yeah, and a good friend with, now do you...

I do know him. You do? Yes. And he's okay? Phil's lovely, yes. Okay, well you've got to check. Oh, you have. Because we work with monsters. friends with phil simpson a great guy you used to work with at bbc hereford

and what's he's a thoroughly nice okay lovely okay and my mother met you at an event every time i mentioned the podcast she says oh jane she was lovely so little so funny oh that's better yeah uh but tell us a little bit more about accidentally kissing neil kinnock on the lips and she was lovely, so little. So funny. Oh, that's better. Yeah. But tell us a little bit more about accidentally kissing Neil Kinnock on the lips, Jen, if you've got a spare moment. And as politics is very much in our mind at the moment, I think we'd like more of your accidental encounters, perhaps of a slightly frisky nature,

with leading politicians. That's a good idea. If anyone can aim for a Lib Dem, that would be great, because we've mentioned... Oh, that's true, yes. We've done Keir Starmer, Neil Kinnock. Have we mentioned Rishi? Zunac? Yes. Yep.

There aren't that many other Rishis in British political life. No, but somebody told us off the other day for just in conversation on the programme, just saying Rishi. And it annoys lots of people in the same way that just calling him Boris annoyed lots of people because it gave him a kind of affectation of camaraderie, didn't it? I'm not sure with Rishi Sunak it's the same thing. No. But he just doesn't seem to enjoy the same level of popularity that Boris Johnson wants it.

But if you were to ask me which of the two gentlemen I prefer, I would have no hesitation in saying Mr Sunak. Right, I'm sure that'll help his cause. The poles will start turning. Anon says, You two are such a pair of absolute townies. Yeah, there is something sexual about horse riding. I can't explain it, but giggle if you must.

Having your own horse is a wonderful, heavenly, scary, absorbing experience. Sexy times. You need a good physio for the horse. You make do with a hot bath and deep heat. You need to be... No, that's just Jane. I love deep heat. You need to be a very good rider to ride side saddle.

I've never done it. Even with excellent skills, it's actually quite dangerous, says Anonymous. Right, OK, well, we wish them... I do know their name, and we wish them a very, very happy rest of their life, because things seem to be going pretty bloody well so far. I don't think they need our help.

No. Oh, God. I can't believe you've just done that. Can I just say this is so funny. Happy significant birthday, Joan. Have a Boston time. Genuine thanks to you and Fionn team for company.

This is from Adele and it is a photograph of a cake and the caption is when you leave the Colin Caterpillar cake in the cupboard too long. It took me a while to get this. I think this is very clever. Did you get it right away?

I did, but then I'm just a little bit sparkier. No, it's incredibly good and thank you because it is a butterfly cake. It's a butterfly cake. Yeah, it looks like it. I made a cake for the first time in ages last week. I haven't made a sponge in the first time in ages last week. I haven't made a sponge in a long time.

Do you ever make cakes? Well, I did give my daughter a hand last night because she was making a cake for a friend of hers. And the first cake that came out, I thought it was absolutely fine. It was quite firm, but I thought it was absolutely fine. I was congratulating her on it. And then she just looked around the kitchen and saw that there was a jug of water. And she said, oh, I didn't add the water.

So we had to go back and make another one. You actually went back and did another one? Yes, yeah. God. Well, I mean, you know, she wanted to make it really lovely. But I'm hopeless at baking cakes. I don't like the... Oh, I'm just not good at it.

I didn't used to be bad. But I nearly brought it into work because I needed to get rid of it. But then I thought, no, I'd have to carry it on the train and I couldn't be bothered. Anyway, I actually finished it last night watching Scotland. Feel loved, Eve. Feel treasured. Feel worthwhile.

Well, I know that it will just disappear. You and me both. I've been round to your house before where you cooked a very nice... You'd baked a very nice coffee and walnut cake. Well, it was the coffee cake, but I think I've lost round to your house before where you cooked a very nice, you'd baked a very nice coffee and walnut cake. Well, it was the coffee cake, but I think I've lost the knack. Because everybody suddenly went vegan in the house, then you didn't want any eggs. So I just couldn't make a sponge.

And I just went back to it because for various reasons, a couple of people in my life had asked for a sponge cake, so I thought I'd do one. But I have lost the knack. I need to get back into the habit. Because actually, it's lovely to have cake in the house a little bit of what you fancy fee is never a bad thing I totally agree but it wouldn't be cake no well it would actually be cake for me I've just got to be honest um R who sent me that beautiful card yesterday is actually Roseanne thank you

Roseanne she just says she's currently administering the parliamentary election for a local council. And quite frankly, she cannot wait for it to be all done and dusted. Well, I hope it goes well for you. We do forget that in the midst of all this excitement for some, there's a lot of hardcore admin going on and a lot of gnawing of gnashing of teeth and sleepless nights for the people who have to do the do so best of luck to all of them yes uh can i just say hello to george uh georgina who was uh the person who wrote to us about nick kyrgios yeah who complained to the bbc and got a very lackluster response back and we asked her to just give us a little bit more detail and she has sent us this I referred to your week response to other complaints about the appointment of Nick Kyrgios

in my original complaint so this is George relaying to us what she then wrote back to them and it's quite weird actually so they'd used within um the response to her complaint uh they kind of said that he's high profile uh and that the bbc's employment of him was in no way condoning his behavior uh and georgina goes on to say you've shared my disappointment with the team at bbc sport and she's gone on to say, please share my disgust and anger. And I don't know. I mean, I think you are condoning somebody's behaviour if you employ them. Well, yeah, I do too.

How are you not? How are you not? Exactly. Because you take a stand by not employing them. And also, I know I'm like a broken record here, but there is no way that a female tennis player with a record of domestic abuse would be hired in that capacity. It would not happen. I'm convinced it wouldn't, no matter how high profile they were.

So I just think they'd probably be ostracised. There's no way they'd be picked up and given another presumably quite lucrative role. This comes in from Maud, though, who says, I know that he's considered a bad boy of tennis. I, for one, love to watch him play. It's always exciting in the same way that McEnroe always felt dangerous. I've been at a Surbiton tennis tournament a few times

and to witness Nick firsthand and giving so much time to juniors, he never rushes away and chats with them for ages. I'm sure he does a lot for charity so he shouldn't be brandished as being violent. Lots of tennis players smash rackets and shout at the crowd. We all happily listen to McEnroe commentating and to be honest he is very entertaining and knowledgeable but was also a bad

boy in his past. Give him a chance and try to forget what is past news. Well there's two sides of that but I think I still know what I think. It'll be interesting to see whether he actually makes it, because Wimbledon doesn't start until Monday 1st July. So if they actually do carry through with employing him, let's see what happens then.

Yeah, I mean, I do think as well, it's always worth bearing in mind, isn't it, how you make other people feel when you put somebody who is controversial uh into that kind of situation because somebody's got to mic him up somebody's got to film him somebody's got to prep him somebody's got to sit alongside him somebody's got to ask him questions somebody's got to be part of it and that's difficult isn't it if it's your job to do wimbledon and you do find it difficult to be with somebody who

i mean i agree i've watched him in the past um and really been entertained by his matches i find it much more difficult to watch him now and also some of his behavior i mean it's spitting at people uh in the crowd and stuff you know it's quite, it is quite, it's very purposefully bad boy. It's very purposefully bad boy. So I don't know. It's a tricky one. Yeah. Well, let us know what you think.

Perhaps, I'm just not convinced it will actually come to pass somehow. But anyway, let's see if it does. Mystic Garve. Mystic Garve. Well, don't get me started on her. She's useless. No, come on, come on,

because we've got an England-Denmark game today to predict. I know I'm in danger here of doing a Jude Bellingham, formerly a Kevin Keegan, and talking about myself in the third person. But Mystic Garves, not on a good run. She really isn't. Come on. Come on. England will win 2-0 tonight.

2-0. But I do still stand by the fact that I'm afraid, despite my bet on them, I don't feel that they're going to win the tournament. And that brings us... Oh, I just want to mention a great email from Helen who talks about her nan... Let's move it on. Who talks about her nan, who took them on the Mersey ferry,

but also tells us that her nan had a number of noted eccentricities. At one point, she drew stamps on letters rather than actually buying stamps. I love that. I want to know, Helen, whether those letters were ever received by anybody. Because if they were, then we're on to a really good money-saving tip, courtesy of your nan. Because stamps are a right price.

Yeah, I sometimes wondered whether you could make your own QR code and where that would take you. You know, if you just did a really extraordinary, maybe if you're caught on a Vanty West for seven hours. Please don't. Just an enormous doodle where you just did your own. The chances are you would be able to QR code your doodle and it would take you somewhere magical.

That's a challenge, isn't it? Let us know. If you ever, I mean, she has been a bit niche this week. But if you've ever made your own QR code, tell Fee all about it. You must just, before we get on to our guest, who is Tom Bower, who is the author of a piece of work about the Beckhams. It's a book. It's a book. It's called The House of Beckham. We'll get on to him in a moment. But you must have seen this email from Katrina

about the green tinted moisturiser that you referenced when you were talking about hiding your teenage blushing. Well, Katrina says she'd completely forgotten about its key role in the Friday night pre-pub ritual for three of us who were prone to getting a bit rosy. Perhaps the carefully applied layers of green foundation and liberal topping of matte powder to avoid the equally dreaded shiny look also had an unexpected ageing effect as we never had any problems getting past the bouncers, even though we were 15.

The green cream routine met its demise when I volunteered to help the make-up for our sixth form school play. I set to work with gusto, confidently assuring any performers who queried their new look that professional makeup artists added extra green to balance out the orange tones of the stage lights. It wasn't until the cast of My Fair Lady sashayed out onto the stage that I realised that half the ensemble looked perfectly healthy, whereas the other half, and spoiler alert, they were my my clients appeared to be valiantly battling either a flash norovirus outbreak or the final stages of some unmentionable victorian disease the green cream never made an appearance at an underage pub venue again there we are be

aware um that's very good thank you that's that version of my Fair Lady sounds bloody awful. I think on the whole school plays can be a bit rubbish. I mean, not all of them. Not all of them. No. I covered myself. No. No, I haven't.

Let's get involved in the world of the Beckhams. I bet you've heard of the Beckhams. They are David and Victoria. Now, she used to be in a group called the Spice Girls and he used to play football for a team called Manchester United. And for a time, he was, in fact, lest we forget, the captain of England. The couple married in 1999, and they have four children. No celebrity ever, though, wants to find out that Tom Bower is writing about them. And the Beckhams, it's fair to say, will not be happy about much of the content of Tom's book, The House of Beckham. I asked Tom if David was any closer to getting that elusive knighthood.

No, I think further away than ever, because firstly, his tax affairs, as I show in my book, are pretty murky. I mean, 19 companies were turned over about 40 million. If Dior, with a turnover of 60 million, had the same number of active companies, they'd have 30,000. So it's all deliberately, his tax affairs are deliberately opaque to legally avoid tax. And the second reason is

that he wasn't a great footballer. I mean, he was a good footballer. He scored some brilliant goals. But the football career is pretty patchy and very few footballers get knighthoods. Stanley Matthews, Robbie Robson, but that's very limited. We'll get on to that then a little bit later, because I do think it's really interesting what you say about his ability, or potentially lack of it as an actual player. But his tax affairs,

I mean, it's creative accounting, he's done nothing illegal. Don't lots of very rich people do exactly the same thing? Well, if I were a politician here at the election time, you wouldn't say that to me, would you? So if a politician can't have murky, opaque, incomprehensible accounts, and they are incomprehensible, you'd say, well, how on earth can you do that? And here's a public figure. The Beckhams are the second most popular couple in the country

after the Prince and Princess of Wales. And he's deliberately, legally, but deliberately avoiding tax by a whole range of contortions. It gets to the actual effect. It's so confused that my forensic accountant I employed found that there was nine million pounds owing to him by the German tax authorities. And it was me that raised it with Beckham and said, you realise that you're out of money? And he hasn't said thank you yet. But that shows you the confusion. You honestly have contacted them and told them that they are owed £9 million.

Yes, and they denied it at first because they couldn't believe that my accountant could actually go through their account so forensically, but he did. I did notice in the acknowledgements, Tom, that you say that you didn't even attempt to speak directly to them for this book. Now, why didn't you? Well, because I knew that he'd say no. I mean, the Beckhams dominate the media and they dominate who can see them. And the only people who are allowed access and interviews them are people

who will write what they demand. And there are censors who made sure that what is said is in their favour. So they know that I wasn't going to play that game and they would have said no. So there's no point actually asking them. If we're to believe your account, they both, they emerged from this book as a pair of self-obsessive, very thin-skinned, quite greedy people. But again, that probably, you could probably say that

about almost everyone who's become a celebrity, couldn't you? Well, I don't know. I haven't investigated that many celebrities. I've investigated Beckhams because they are the pre-eminent celebrities. Well, I suppose everyone. That's the whole point of my books, and this is my 27th, that I always pursue people who have climbed the greasy pole.

They're two very successful, self-made people. And that self-made is significant, isn't it? Very significant. And that's why they're so popular. But the point is that when they get to the top of the greasy pole, they then seek to control the narrative of their rise and their background to make sure they remain pristine and untouchable. And it is that sort of campaign

which I seek to pierce and undermine and expose. Talking about controlling the narrative, you could definitely accuse the royal family of doing exactly that, couldn't you, in many, many ways? Well, of course, and I wrote about Prince Charles. I know, yeah. And exposed his many, many transgressions and he had to change his operations because of my exposures,

especially his money-raising operations. So I'm not apologising for doing this. I mean, I think you've got to follow the money. So you're not a snob, because I sometimes felt, reading this book, that you took a rather snooty tone, particularly when talking about Victoria, and actually elements of misogyny in there as well, Tom, if I'm honest. I mean, it did, it rankled a bit with me.

Yes, I think women don't like any criticism of Victoria. They admire the fact... Well, it's not that, not Victoria. I have no personal, you know, I admire her ambition, I've got to say. I just don't think you were as cruel to David as you have been at times to Victoria. Well, I don't think I've been cruel. What I've been is honest. The point is that Victoria, for women,

is understandably a champion of having overcome all the hurdles of his infidelity, trying to establish an alternative career in fashion, being the mother and all the rest of it, and at the same time, promoting herself. I think she should be judged just like you judge a politician today, if I was here. She is, in the the end a public personality uh you want to feel sympathy for i think most of the reviewers of my book who are all women want to be sympathetic to her as well and don't like the criticism it's not that it's just that we can see misogyny um it's not misogyny i'm just going to take issue with that because there are at

times tom where it does appear you talk about her figure you talk about her breast enhancements, all the rest of it. I mean, there are elements of sympathy obviously because here's a woman in the public eye and women are treated differently and they're treated more harshly. No, I don't think that's fair at all. I think you're completely wrong. She is the person who put her figure into the public eye. She constantly talks about

her figure. She constantly talked about her breast, denying breast enlargement. It's not me that put it into the public domain. It was she. She didn't stop talking about her figure. She constantly talked about her breasts, denying breast enlargement. It's not me that put it into the public domain, it was she. She didn't stop talking about her breasts. She didn't stop talking about her diet. She doesn't stop talking about her keep fitness thing. So are you saying that in a book

about the Beckhams, I should ignore what she herself thinks is so important? That's ridiculous. Let's talk about David and his infidelities. I mean, I think I was going to say a ledge there, but I don't need to say a ledge, do I? No. No his infidelities. I mean, I think I was going to say alleged there, but I don't need to say alleged, do I? No, not at all. I mean, they're quite clear, and it's in the book, it's not alleged.

But I think that's the point. I mean, he has been adulterous, I think, for a long time. Does it matter? Well, clearly it matters to a couple who paraded themselves as a happy family. And that is the hypocrisy that gets to you. Exactly, exactly. And actually, it's the hypocrisy that gets to you in all the books you've written.

Well, exactly. That's the point about people who climb the pole and want to stay there. They project an image. And whether it's Conrad Black or Bernie Eccleston or Tony Blair, whoever I've written about all these different giants in our lives, in the end, it's the hypocrisy, which in the end is their vulnerable point. You hint at relatively recent infidelities on the part of David Beckham, but there's no actual proof is there that he's been unfaithful recently? Well, I'm not going to go into that because legally it's impossible. The point at the moment is that the privacy laws which have encroached into our lives and limiting the freedom of the press have made it

impossible to do what you did in 2003 and 4 with Rebecca Luce and all those affairs you couldn't do the same again even if a woman wanted to tell her story now she couldn't uh because of the privacy laws but you know David Beckham hasn't changed his spots I go as far as that and you believe that the couple employ NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, quite freely? I believe I do. I mean, they're draconian and they enforce them. And people are terrified.

I mean, people have been very wronged. And that is, of course, always the source of my information for all these people, that it's their victims who want to talk. It's the victims who feel they've been very badly treated and belie the public image of a genial, generous couple always giving to charity, who want to tell you the truth about a raucous, very unhappy, loud shouting and all the rest of it in the private household.

Yeah, but there are lots of relationships like that. Yes, there are. Lots of marriages like that. And lots of situations in which couples who've been together for a while have reached an arrangement that actually, you know what, it suits them both. Well, you're absolutely right, except they don't all make their fortune

by parading as a family unit and coming, arriving at events separately, posing for the cameras, then leaving separately ten minutes later. And that happens. Of course it does. And I don't mind. It's not that I personally think it's outrageous.

It's just that it's not the image they seek to portray and from which they profit. And what about their alleged meanness? Well, I think that is something which is very important. I mean, there's no doubt that the emails that Beckham sent at the time when his publicity man's emails were hacked do show him to be not only money conscious, but down to the most pernickety detail.

You know, he'd got a UNICEF trip organised for him. He got a private jet to take him out to the Far East. UNICEF would have had to pay £6,000 for his business class tickets. He thought he should get that money back because he saved them the tickets. I mean, that was... And he did the same for hotels and everything. He's tight-fisted. And what's interesting is the one who's very close to his age said to me, well, he's not that tight-fisted.

He gave me an Apple Mac laptop or something for Christmas. Well, you know, £1,000 for a man whose turnover was getting towards £50 million. Yeah, but I wouldn't say no to a free Apple Mac. Well, no, you're right. But, you know, his staff often, especially the domestic staff get very fed up with his tight fistedness. And, you know, it's not a matter that it's wrong to be very money conscious. I don't blame him. He comes from a very poor background. I mean, all his money is self made.

I admire him for that. I admire Victoria for it too. They really have carved a very successful career. But all I'm seeking to tell in this book is the story, and it's a very fascinating story, of two self-made people who belie the image and who work very hard about the image and all the ups and downs they go through are constantly concerned about money and image and everything else.

Can we also just mention, because you said earlier in passing, you know, I like football, and you actually said that David Beckham wasn't much of one. Well, I didn't say that. I said he wasn't the greatest footballer. He was a good footballer and scored some amazing goals. Yeah, no, he did. But he missed hundreds more. Yeah.

You know, that's the point. And I think lots of people listening are not fans of Manchester United. I'm certainly not. There is no doubt that his... Is it his good looks that have... Well, it must be, mustn't it? That have added to his reputation as a footballer. Well, he's a beautiful man.

He was a beautiful man. And he played beautifully, especially in Manchester United in the late 90s. They scored the most miraculous goal in 2001 against Greece to get us into the World Cup. And after that, it was a downhill ride. And that's why Alex Ferguson got rid of him, because he got obsessed by celebrity and posh and all the rest of it.

But what is really important about his football career and why he was not one of the greatest is that he was a very poor captain of England. He wasn't someone who could galvanise and lead on the field, and therefore he had a series of terrible defeats, even by Northern Ireland. I mean, it was unbelievable. And also, he missed a lot of shots.

And when he got to Real Madrid, he failed again. I mean, there were times when they wouldn't play him for game after game because he was playing so badly. And then, this is the remarkable thing about David, is that when he was down, really down, he scored a miraculous goal. He could pick himself up. And that's what I do admire him.

His stubborn determination to always succeed when he's down and reverse fortune in his favour is a very interesting story. And it is a role model for people who, and that's where, you know, the book is pluses, and she too. Yeah. Alex Ferguson, no flies on him. He could spot his flaws.

Sven, you're an Ericsson. I'd almost forgotten about him, but what a comic creation the man is. And I should say, I know he's not very well at the moment. But he really, I mean, you hint that he had more than a soft spot for David Beckham. Well, a love for the man. I mean, you know, when you saw David, he does have a marvellous manner.

And there's no doubt that it has a great effect in the dressing room. He could galvanise people to be nice to each other, although it was very difficult in the England team, was their downfall. But in the end, the reason that David stayed the captain was because the FA, the Football Association, needed him to get money for their shirts, for appearances and things like that. He was a money machine. He was an icon across the whole world in China and Japan, not least in Australia and New Zealand and America then.

So he was very important for the finances. And Sven-Goran Eriksson thought he didn't have an alternative. I mean, I have followed what you might loosely describe as the fortunes of the England men's football team for many years. And one of the great details in this book is about the kind of calamitous decision-making at the Football Association, which really takes itself seriously as a body, doesn't it? But they're rubbish.

Well, they are. They are. And that is the tragedy of English football. And Beckham was a beneficiary of that rubbish because they felt they couldn't do without him and without Springer and Eriksen, paid him more than any other, three times more, than any other manager in world football. And then they did the same mistake with Capello,

who got them kicked out in South Africa. So, you know, this is a story really about vanity, about narcissism. It is also about some sort of inverted commas, moral corruption. Moral corruption from whom? Well, all sides. I mean, the point is you don't get to being that sort of famous and being propelled into it by the Football Association, who in the end did dreadful deals to try and win the World Cup bid to Stasia in 2018

with this dreadful character in Trinidad and Tobago, without being morally corrupt and being blind. And they didn't get it. Obviously, people will know that they didn't win. They didn't win because they didn't bribe enough, or they didn't realise it. We're in the midst of Euro 2024 in England. I mean, they sort of bumbled their way to a 1-0 victory in the first match.

I mean, it does look, I'm slightly cynical about them, it does look as though we're probably not going to win this either. Well, the problem is that it's always the same. There's always a build-up. The media, quite understandably, wants to raise everyone's expectations. And that is, of course, and so we're going to, on the pattern of the game against Serbia, we're going to be up pretty quickly. But it's the same with the Beckhams, you see,

that the media, even now, does not want to criticise their heroes. They've got to have heroes. The readers want heroes. And that is why the Beckhams have survived and prospered for 25 years. And there's no way this couple will ever break up? Absolutely not. I mean, it would be financial suicide. And that is where Victoria realised it in 2003 with the Rebecca Luce thing, when there was talk of divorce by both of them, that she realised that the only way was to stay together, to repatch their differences and form a working relationship, which of course they've done very successfully. And I mean, they are still controlling their image. The Netflix shows about them were really incredibly manicured, weren't they? Oh, well, they produced it themselves.

It was excellent television. It was their version of my book, All the Warts is the Truth, and that's why it's a rollicking story. Just as Netflix was a great view, the book is a great read because their story is extraordinary and that's what makes it worth writing and reading. Reading this, though, I did slightly fear for their children. I mean, they've got four children

and their youngest one is the daughter who... You wonder what kind of a life any of the four of them can actually expect. They're not going to get fair treatment, are they? I mean, do you feel that they're actually rather vulnerable? No, I think they're vulnerable to their parents' use of them. I think that's what's so extraordinary. When Brooklyn was born, at the age of one,

David gave an interview saying that he had to protect his son from media attention and then walked across the field of Old Trafford with his one-year-old son wearing a seven shirt. I mean, talk about hypocrisy. Difficult territory, this, to put it mildly. And I always steer clear of the children. I mean, I think the Brooklyn Peltz wedding was extraordinary and their careers are clearly difficult.

They haven't... It is difficult to grow up in that atmosphere and they haven't been successful academically at school. But, you know, I think when the parents say they're charming and lovely, I will take them at their word. Well, I've got personal experience of this, because my daughter has served the Beckham children in a hospitality setting and made a note of what good manners they had.

Exactly. So, I mean, there you are. It's just one example. They didn't know who she was. No, no, I think that's right. I think they have got good manners, and I think their parents demand it. But it's testing for them, I mean, there you are. It's just one example. They didn't know who she was. No, no, I think that's right. I think they have got good manners and I think their parents demand it. But it's testing for them, I mean, no doubt. Yeah. So, together they're very powerful, so we can rule out any divorce, that's just never going to happen,

and the knighthood has totally gone for a button. So we'll never know Sir and Lady Beckham. Well, I don't think in the foreseeable future. If he lives to 95, I think they may feel very charitable, the committee, but I wouldn't have thought at the moment there was a chance. How could he increase his chances? Well, I think in the end, you've got a lobby,

and when he was put forward originally, it was by Sebastian Coe, who wanted to reward him for getting the Olympics for Britain, and he did terribly well in that and he was an icon and they needed him to try and get the World Cup bid. I don't know if he's doing, I mean he then did UNICEF stuff which is quite clear from the emails he did to get his chance of getting a knighthood. He stopped doing a lot of this charity stuff. He's not appearing for the British government, the British people anymore. He's very much based in Miami. So I don't see who would lobby for him. And I think that he is.

Why does he so desperately want a knighthood? You've got to always ask yourself that. Well, again, it's back to the snob thing. They want to be a part of the establishment. And there are people who have entered the establishment on the back of rather less than the Beckhams, I would suggest. Well, I know, but it's because Philip Green has got a knighthood. Is he part of the establishment now? Right. Any chance that there... I mean, what about Starmer? Angela Rayner? No, no-one wants to buy a book about Starmer, the toolmaker's son.

I mean, it's so boring. And there's nothing hidden there. There's nothing... You know, in the end, to write my sort of book where the subjects do not want to cooperate, you've got to get up in the morning and galvanise that. I won't let the buggers get me down. And my job and my delight is

to find out what they don't want and publish it. And that's what I've done with the Beckhams. They don't like it. No, there's much more interesting people. Well, like who? I mean, I want to know who I should warn. Who should be worried in the morning?

We'll see. That is Tom Bower. And I imagine a few people are a little probably having palpitations at the thought that Mr. Bower might be on to them next. But it's interesting, that book. I mean, I have to say that we had a bit of a ding dong in that interview about his treatment, in particular of Victoria. He doesn't really see the misogyny i saw it and i read it and i think as he says in the conversation a number of female reviewers have said the same thing to him so i don't know um look are they a perfect couple no they're not uh is it possible that they're not as loved up as they might want to have us believe? Probably not, either. Is it a man's job to ever comment on, you know,

which way a woman's nipples are facing? No, not really. But I wouldn't... I can't say I wouldn't recommend it if you want to read about the quite destructive impact of celebrity. I don't think it's a happy... It's not a happy place to be, whether you're them or any of the other thousands of people who occupy the celebrity space. I just think it makes life incredibly hard.

And for your children, it's a really difficult set of circumstances. So, serious question, which you don't have to answer because it is your birthday. But you do enjoy reading a book like that oh i do yeah i make no bones about it yeah so so am i part of the problem yeah yeah so so that circle how how how does it get squared you can't you can't you i mean i absolutely uh and i think there is a snobbishness about the way the beckhams are treated i mean we did discuss that too. But, you know, he's...

Yes, you're absolutely right to point to the inconsistency because I will happily read books like that. I've always read the tabloid newspapers all my life. And what does that make me? I suppose it makes me somebody who wants to have it in every conceivable way. Yeah, but, you see, I think that's the huge problem, isn't it? Because the Beckhams also want to have it in every conceivable way.

Everybody is part of a symbiotic relationship with the give and take of fame. I mean, it's just true, isn't it? I mean, unless you absolutely genuinely hand on heart, never even raise an eyebrow in the direction of a headline about somebody's personal life or their wealth or their choices or whatever it is, then, you know, none of us have a leg to stand on. No, I mean, we swim through a sea of double standards, don't we?

We do, darling. Well, you do. I do. It's down the Lido. I don't. Right, thank you all for putting up with this. Have a lovely week. Enjoy Richard Coles. No, I don't. It's down the Lido. I don't. Right. Thank you all for putting up with this. Have a lovely week.

Enjoy Richard Coles and the show from Sheffield. We really enjoyed it at the time, so I hope it brings you pleasure too. Absolutely. And have a lovely, lovely week in the sunshine. Yes, and you too. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler

and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday three till five. You can pop us on

when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again

on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. I'm sorry.