Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A bit of gentle encouragement helps - with Ian Hislop

Episode Date: November 2, 2022

Jane and Fi are joined by lifestyle journalist and Wellness Wednesday regular, Rosamund Dean, to find out how to cope when everything feels a bit bleak.And, Ian Hislop talks about his new play "Spike" and the continued influence of Private Eye on the news and laws in the UK.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. And me, Fee Glover. And we are fresh from our brand new Times Radio show, but we just cannot be contained by two hours of live broadcasting. So we've kept the microphones on, grabbed a cuppa, and are ready to say what we really think. Unencumbered and off-air. Hello and welcome, a warm welcome in fact, that's what I'm going to give you because it has got

chillier since we did the item on how warm it's been. To Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. That was quite a run-up, wasn't it? And me, Fee Glover. Hello. Hello. Now, Fee has got a really important announcement to make because she's got more thoughts on winter coats. Well, I have.

So I enjoyed the article that's in the front of Times 2 today because it's all about wearing trainers to work. Apparently there's a new kind of ugly trainer that's now incredibly acceptable in even boardrooms across the country, Jane. And I like that because I'm not alone in not being able to get back into a single pair of high heels after the pandemic. Well, it's weird. The last couple of weeks I've gone back into my high-heeled, high-heeled-ish boots

and I'm OK with them. So I wonder whether practice makes perfect. But I might do a trainer tomorrow. Yes, possibly. I find that I can't move at speed at all anymore. Or maybe my arches have fallen. Were you ever threatened with that as a child? What, fallen arches?

Yes. If you didn't get the really, really kind of plonky formal school shoes that were very ugly indeed, your arches might fall. And I remember thinking that this was a terrible, terrible thing that might happen to me, Jane. A possible fate that would condemn you for all time to the home for women with fallen arches. You didn't have that.

No, it must have been a Hampshire thing because it wasn't anything we worried about up north. Too busy trying to keep warm. Oh, don't do your born-in-a-bucket routine. Maybe my arches have fallen and yours are intact, and that's why you can get back into a boot. Who's the Prime Minister who was always going around rescuing fallen women?

He could have been... Was it Gladstone? I think it was Gladstone. Was it Gladstone? Yeah. Perhaps he really intended to help women with fallen arches, but just got a bit waylaid and ended up helping fallen women instead. Possibly. Anyway, it was just a very, very reassuring article.

I don't often find reassurance in articles about high fashion anymore, Jane. But that one was because you can wear your ugly trainers and apparently it's the end of the winter coat, which as an increasingly short woman I'm all in favour of the end of the winter coat because nothing reduces your height more than a great big formal winter coat because you disappear inside you mean yeah yeah um I did laugh when I read an article about velvet being back because you know every single bloody winter you suddenly start start getting offered the chance to buy a velvet shirt or a velvet skirt or a velvet jacket. It does happen every... Don't be fooled, women. Yeah, well, we say that as two radio presenters

who sustained an interesting Wellness Wednesday feature for at least ten minutes on seasonal adjustment disorder, which you could equally argue does come around every year. Clues in the title. Yep. Wellness Wednesday, where we bring you up to date with the latest wellness trends. And as Jane has already alluded to, the clocks have gone back. Winter is drawing in. So today we're joined by lifestyle journalist and Wellness Wednesday regular. That's quite a badge after three weeks

of the job. Rosamund Deeb to find out, low bar, to find out how to cope when everything feels a bit bleak. Hello from us, Rosamund. Hello, thanks so much for having me back. I'm glad the gong has stayed. Yes, it's an updated gong because do you remember the first gong had a squeak at the end of it? So we've got a better and bigger gong already. This is the sign of our power. Do you struggle a bit when the clocks change? Oh, yes, absolutely. I mean, I think everybody does to an extent,

but some people embrace the kind of coziness and coldness of winter. I don't. I love the summer. And when it starts to get dark around, I don't know if you've got any windows in the studio there but it is about four o'clock now it's starting to get dark so you've got about half an hour left of daylight today I mean it is a familiar conversation that you can have at this time of year and isn't it just a very basic thing that in the olden times we would just be hunkering down with some potted

offal and a jar of blackberries, and we'd just slow down for winter. And now our society doesn't let us do that. So we feel that friction more. Exactly. Yeah, we used to hibernate to an extent. And now we have obviously, electric lights, but also the blue light from our devices kind of in our faces, often until quite late in the evening. And it's not very good for our mental health or our physical health. So we know these things. What is the best way to go about solving them? So light is very important. Obviously, light is key. And the timing of your light is particularly important. So first thing in the morning, you want as much bright natural

light on your face as you can. I know that's not always easy when it's a bleak, cloudy, miserable day out there. But not only does that help regulate your mood, but it also regulates your melatonin production. So melatonin is the hormone that regulates your sleep. So by getting that light on your face in the morning, it actually helps you sleep better that evening. Does that honestly mean sticking your head outside, Rosamund? It does. It does. So obviously, at this time of year, people talk a lot about vitamin D. And vitamin D is so important. It's very difficult to get it from food. And the best source of it is light, natural light outside um so people recommend a vitamin d supplement throughout the autumn and winter which is a great thing to do but there are you know the

controversy about how well absorbed into your body it is and the best source is daylight so as soon as you see the sun on a winter day get outside uh Can you successfully use those other lamps, though, that recreate exactly that kind of light? And if they've been proved to work, why don't we just have bedside lights that have that type of bulb in them? Yeah, I mean, it does depend who you sleep with, because I don't know if my husband would enjoy being woken up by a sunrise beside the bed. And also, I generally get up earlier than him. So you have to work out your bedroom situation. So one of those wouldn't work for me,

but they sound amazing. I would definitely love to try one. Wouldn't it make sense to just, for someone to manufacture bulbs like that, that you could just put into, you know, a couple of rooms in your house when the clocks do change? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think if you can get those really bright bulbs in the rooms that you use during the day, because the other thing is you definitely don't want that bright

light in the evening, because that completely messes up your melatonin production the other way. So it interferes with your sleep. And even if you do fall asleep easily, you're not getting that deep restorative sleep, because your melatonin is all over the place because your brain thinks at daytime because of the bright you know bathroom light that you've looked in as you brush your teeth you're going to tell us about something called the harmony principle program this is intriguing what is it so the harmony principle program it's it's basically an online course and it's rooted in traditional Chinese medicine. So it's quite, you know, it depends how woo woo you're willing to go. But really what it's about is embracing the seasons.

So it's understanding that autumn and winter are a time for, you know, destroying the leaves falling off the trees and we're all feeling a bit at our lowest ebb. And then it's healing and replenishing after that. So it's about embracing the natural cycles of the seasons. And, you know, hunkering down for winter, like you said. It sounds great. But the immediate flaw in the plan is, as you said, it's online, we're going to have to look into a screen in order to find out about it, Rosamund. That's wrong. Well, you can get those blue light blocking glasses, which are a good idea to wear in the afternoon while you're looking at your blue light screens. And you can also put them on the dimmer settings.

There are so many things now that you can do to kind of tweak it and make it easier. things now that you can do to kind of tweak it and make it easier. But the number one best thing to do is just get out for a walk in the morning as soon as you can after waking up. And just, you know, reframe your school run or your commute or whatever to think that's the time when you're getting vitamin D, getting exercise, you're getting, you know, if you walk past a tree, you can count that spending time in nature, which is really good for your mental health as well. All these little things that can be a bit of a boost. Yeah, I went food shopping at eight o'clock this morning. Rosamund's absolutely right. It helps. I just feel better.

Have you noticed? Well, you was certainly you came into the office in a forceful way today, Jane. I'll say that for you. Rosamund, thank you. Thank you. Oh, thank you so much. Go on, rosamund say say what was on your mind go on i was just gonna say i would like to know fee if you took home the mushroom coffee from last week and if it's nice because i'm trying to cut down on caffeine and if it's good i might give it a go well the flaw there was there turned out to be caffeine in it didn't there oh what yes it was oh i see sorry in. In the mushroom coffee, there was caffeine, not in the mushroom tea. I might need to get that absolutely right.

So I confess I had a couple of sips of it and then gave up on it. But Jane did drink half a cup and I don't know. What was the result? I'm afraid I didn't notice a significant improvement. Okay. Apparently the team's drinking it every day. I haven't noticed any. Yes, I've noticed an overwhelming improvement. Rosamund, thank you very much. Thanks so much. Now our big guest this afternoon is Ian Hislop, the king of TV satirical quizzes. He's been doing Have I Got News For You for as long as any of us can remember, really, since the dawn of time. He's also the editor of Private Eye

and he's the co-writer of the play Spike with Nick Newman. And this is about Spike Milligan, of course. Ian Hislop, good afternoon to you. How are you? Hi. Are you all right, Ian? Yes, yeah, I'm good, thanks. I just got back from Glasgow.

You just got back from Glasgow? Yeah, yeah, I'm good, thanks. I just got back from Glasgow. You just got back from Glasgow? Yeah, the play's touring at the moment, so I was up there last night and I've just returned. Right, OK, you do look a little bruised by the experience. Does Glasgow always do that to you? Yeah, no, the play went down very well, and Glasgow's a place where there are places to celebrate afterwards. How mean of them to keep them open for you late into the night, Ian.

Well, we'll be relatively gentle with you. Now, we've been talking about Spike Milligan a little bit, and I just wonder really whether you could provide just some vital information about him for people who honestly are not old enough to really appreciate his genius. I mean, it was a genius. It's just a very particular sort of genius, isn't it? Yes. I mean, the reason we wrote the play was that lots of people have no idea who Spike Milligan was. And if you mention the goons, they say, well, who were them? So they there is a feeling that we have a slight memory of the goons when they were old.

that we have a slight memory of the goons when they were old. Spike, you know, being old and bad tempered on various sort of odd shows. Peter Sellers making sort of stranger and stranger films and Harry Seacombe doing religious programmes on a Sunday afternoon. And I think we've forgotten the fact that these three young men came out of the army. They were demobbed. They'd been funny in the army and they tried to get into the bbc um and they wanted to be funny and they produced the goon show and that was the first essentially mania i mean 1953 there was goon mania um people couldn't get enough of this and i think

what we're trying to do is just recreate because spike wrote all the shows, just his particular subversive, surreal, mad comic world for those people who've forgotten it. Because he's such a huge influence. Has that humour aged? Could I listen to an episode of The Goons now and fall about with laughter?

Yeah, I think you could. And I really hope that if you came to see the play we would show you enough of it that would make you laugh. I mean, you know, I was there last night. I've been everywhere it's toured. And those jokes are still brilliant. No one comes out the theatre thinking, oh, they weren't funny. Can you give us an example? Is there anything that would translate it to a sort of conversational account of a gag? I mean, the thing with Spike is that he's always just trying to disrupt things. So whenever people listen to the radio show, one of the things they never knew was what was going to happen next. I mean, the great Spike insisted when he died that his tombstone

read, I told you I was ill, which is just, you know, a classic Spike line. But the C of E said, well, you can't have that on a tombstone in the parish. So his family then had to fight this long battle and they ended up just writing it in Gaelic on the tombstone so no one could see it and it was for us that was just an absolutely classic bit of Milligan right to the end he wanted to annoy people and he was I mean when when he was first asked about his tombstone someone said well mean, do you want to go to heaven? And Spike said, well, yes, providing Geoffrey Archer's not there, in which case I want to go to Dagenham. Right. We find this all the time. We do these sort of Q&As after the theatre and then essentially people don't ask questions.

They just they tell us better jokes. And we think, oh, we better put that one in the show as well. How much of his or their anarchic humour was rooted in in really in sometimes the absurdity of their military experience, which isn't to undermine, by the way, what they went through, because I think Spike had shell shocked, didn't he? Yes, he got blown up in Monte Cassino and basically had PTSD afterwards. And I think a lot of the edge of his comedy came from the way he was treated. I mean, he had it in particularly for one officer who accused him of cowardice afterwards and was totally unsympathetic. So there was a real anger there about the way he was treated.

And eventually a sympathetic medic said, well, you know, you're not any good for heavy artillery anymore, but, you know, what about light entertainment? And Spike started playing his trumpet and making jokes. And suddenly he could turn his experience into comedy and um harry seacombe again i mean had a milder he was said i didn't have it as bad as spike but he got sort of blown up as well so they came out of the army sort of furious about um the officer class really um and they were all all three of them were young working class men.

And then they went off to the BBC and they thought the same people are in charge here. They're just wearing blazers differently. Yes. So a lot of that subversion was was, you know, just transferred. A lot of the play is about Spike's difficult relationship with BBC management, something I find very hard to understand. No, no, I thought it might appeal. But is it something that audiences get? Do people care about the fact that BBC management were out of touch and not especially sympathetic or indeed emotionally intelligent in any way?

They do if it's funny. And we found this terrific treasure trove of letters which management had written to Spike and Spike had written back and into office memos. And the level of sheer stupidity is marvellous. And also Spike is just very funny when he's attempting to put his own point of view. I mean, a lot of the letters are just saying, can I have some more money, please? Again, which many people who worked at the BBC find very attractive. Did you use the same template, Jane? I did take advice from Spike, actually.

I'm not sure it was my best option in retrospect. But he was the writer, but wasn't paid as much as the others, weirdly. No, he was paid half what Peter Sellers and Harry Seacombe got. And he kept being told, well, they're the talent. They're the talent. You know, we pay you too much, I think they thought. And they just didn't realise that Spike had essentially created this world. And he was very infuriating for for management.

I mean, I mean, this is 1950s and we imagine that it was a sort of very deferential age. But just after the coronation, the goons did a fake coronation with Sir Richard Dingleby and a character who was quite clearly the queen. clearly the queen. And the BBC management said, you called her the Duchess Boyle de Spudswell, a classic Spike joke. And this is the queen. And he said, oh, no, no, no, no, it's not the queen at all. And then, I mean, just shortly after that, they were upbraided for making jokes about the prime minister, Winston Churchill. I mean, this wasn't an unpopular prime minister. This was this was Churchill. And the BBC literally, I mean, this is one of the jokes in the show. I mean, he he was told Winston Churchill won the war.

And Spike said, well, he had a bit of help from some of us. And that was his attitude. You know, I will not be deferential. You know, I was there. And was he a happy man in his own life? Or was he a troubled comic? He was. I mean, he suffered from depression. And I think he was very difficult. I think the happiest he was was when he was working. And I think it certainly, according to Harry Seacombe, who was the great he comes out as the hero of the play, really. He was the great peacemaker between these warring egos of Peter Sellers and Spike Milligan. But he he maintained that when Spike was working and it was going well, his job was to remind him, this is what you wanted, Spike. You know, we're on the radio. We've got four million listeners every weekend.

We're national heroes and we're creating this vast amount of pleasure. Just enjoy it. I mean, Spike nearly, nearly enjoyed it, I think. And was his depression very stigmatised? I mean, he was operating at a time before we had an open conversation about mental health. And I think a lot of people tried to keep their mental illnesses very separate and very hidden from their public kind of face. Yeah, no, he didn't spike. I mean, he was quite happy to. He was quite happy to. The original title for The Goon Show was Crazy People.

Before it was turned into The Goon Show, which nobody understood at all. And the BBC thought it meant The Go On Show, which in the end it did. But no, he he went into a place called St Luke's where he was looked after very well. And he had therapy and he had treatment of drugs. And all of this was sort of, he was quite open about. But what I think was different from that era is just Spike continually turned it into comedy. I mean, there was part of him that couldn't resist. And there's a famous interview with Anthony Clare

who used to do these radio interviews and um Spike was talking very seriously about his mental illness and then he said um yes I got it from my mother she was very highly strung uh from the ceiling gosh which is an extraordinarily black joke um which we then put in the play, obviously, because it seemed too funny not to. But he was he was very straightforward about it. I mean, he said things like someone said, oh, you psychoneurotic, because there were various definitions going around then. And he said, no, no, I'm just a bit loony. And he he was pretty upfront about his own state. If you were straight out of university or the army at the moment, Ian, do you think that the BBC would employ you?

Would they give you a red carpet into the world of comedy? I don't know. I mean, I don't think Spike got a red carpet in. I mean, he basically had to hang around in the grafted arms with everybody else who wanted to get into light entertainment and find a path in. But in the end, I think he was just too good. There was no way of stopping him. And I do think that's probably true. I mean, it's a very sort of boring old man's view

that there's no one any good anymore and you can't get in. I think there are loads of people who are any good anymore and you can't get in um i think there are loads of people who are good and i think you still can get in um and the the interesting thing about spike's story is is by the end he's still furious for the bbc i mean he used to ring up private eye when i was first there because he had a long-standing relationship with my predecessor and peter cook who owned private eye, was a huge Milligan fan. I mean, literally, you know, the phone, you'd pick it up and there'd be a voice on the end going, bloody BBC. And it would be Spike. I mean, he wouldn't actually introduce himself. He'd just start ranting.

What about your own relationship with the BBC? Because there's always a bit of BBC knocking in Private Eye. And I want to out myself as someone who has a subscription to your organ as you refer to it uh but um there's also the absolute fact that you yourself appear on the BBC very regularly and you earn a lot of money for doing have I got news for you I thought you were about to say for very little that no no I wasn't going to say that obviously the implication was there um so how does that work for you? I mean, very well, obviously. Yeah, no, it works fine. I feel entirely free to criticise the BBC and I feel entirely free to support it. If someone tries to abolish the licence fee, I consider myself an independent voice. My first big television work was for IT itv i worked for spitting image

for five years i mean that's that's that was my early break um and i've done a lot of documentaries for channel four and um other people i mean i suppose i'm saying i'll work for anyone which is yes you certainly named all of the main contenders. You covered all bases. Exactly that. What about the stuff that you know, Ian? And I suspect there are some things that I know that you also know that you wouldn't put in private eye because you couldn't. Does that ever keep you awake at night?

I really do think if I absolutely definitely know something, I will put it in. I mean, I think, again, I think it's a slight myth that people say you must know the most amazing stuff about people. And you think, well, I know what people are saying about people. I don't actually know whether it's true. And my problem and, you know, it's the problem of everyone is is um can you actually get anywhere near proving this and you know with at the moment as as we all know i mean the the rumor mill round uh westminster is just full of the most unbelievable stories um and because i'm now very old um i have to keep thinking well there were extraordinary stories milling around in the Thatcher era

and the Blair era and everyone said you never run those because you don't dare and it turns out none of them were true which was a bit of a problem and so that remains my point of view And are you always being sued

at Private Eye? I mean, I've heard you say that before, but maybe that's just a, you know, kind of a broad brush generalisation. I mean, who's suing you at the moment? No, we're not always being sued. We used to be sued a lot for libel. And then the libel laws were changed, partly because of the Guardian's sort of heroic efforts. But I mean, a little bit because of ourselves and the ludicrous cases we kept losing and getting involved with. But nowadays you tend not to be seen for libel. We tend to get legal problems over confidentiality and privacy. And we do get those letters. I mean, we've had two injunctions attempted in the last four or five issues. So there are people who are very keen. Just explain. Yeah. Injunction would be somebody involved in a story contacting you or their

lawyers contacting you to say, we want to put the mockers on that. We don't want you to publish it. Right. And nowadays you you can do this by saying we not that this story isn't true, but this story is commercially confidential. So those are, you know, in relationships between the government and outsourced providers where we feel that we have a right to know how public money is being spent. where we feel that we have a right to know how public money is being spent and they feel they have a right not to tell you how public money is being spent because it's a commercial deal with a private company. So that's a real pain, confidentiality. And the other one is privacy. Because if you get before a judge and you just say, this story may be true, but it's an invasion of my privacy

and therefore no one can know about it. Yeah, that is that is frustrating. I can see that. In the end, Ian, I'm not going to put words into your mouth, but it's hypocrisy that gets to you, isn't it? It's hypocrisy and hypocrites. Yes. I mean, that is the worst. I mean, the old 18th century satirists always said everything was, what they were interested in was vice, folly and humbug.

And I think that's probably still true. We're less pompous about vice now. We're just worried about being called judgmental. But I think straightforward sort of theft or profiteering or bad behavior is still worth pointing out without being too scared. But humbug is a great modern sin. And Private Eye has always been good at doing that, I think.

That was Ian Hislop. And I think he was quite glad to go, wasn he by the end of that interview Jay um yes I mean I've I've been out in Glasgow and uh it's something everyone should do um at least at least once in their life maybe not on a weeknight maybe not in a weeknight when you're on the radio the next day actually it truly terrifies me the idea of trying to perform in even the limited way I do um after a night out there I pick on Glasgow only because I think it probably is one of the truly great places to go on a night out in Britain. I've done a couple of radio programmes in Glasgow and they have always, they've just been terrific

because they're just brilliant. They won't need to hear this from me or indeed anybody else and certainly not from somebody with an accent like mine. They're wonderful people and I won't need to hear this from me or indeed anybody else. And certainly not from somebody with an accent like mine. They're wonderful people. And I won't use the words up there, but you know it's implied in the way I've said it. I thought a lot of what Ian Hyslop said about Spike Milligan was really interesting. I have been left with the thought, though, just about his mental illness, because Ian didn't make light of the illness at all, but of the reaction that people

had to it because Spike Milligan was so open about it. I think that's actually really important to remember because that would have been a time when very few people walked around openly saying I suffer from depression and sometimes I'm in hospital because of it. Well it was interesting today that we

did talk about student mental health on the programme and I'm not in any way demeaning that because I know it can be a tough time leaving home and you're on your tod in a place that you might not know with all kinds of expectations, it can be very difficult for you but people like Spike Milligan for the rest of their lives lived with things they'd seen and possibly things they'd done in wartime that, I'm sorry, I mean, the impact of that is going to be colossal, isn't it? So little wonder that people of his ilk had to cope somehow. And in his case, he turned his creative genius to fantastically good use.

But that obviously did mean as well that he would be incredibly dragged down by what was in his head and what was what his memories consisted of yep so the stage plays on it's touring all around the country i think the next stop is richmond and then it heads to cardiff and it's simply called spike and it's written with nick newman who is a long time collaborator of in his life and i forgot to mention when we were talking to ian that the character of Spike is played by an actor called Robert Walford. I hope I've got that right. Who is best known for being Jason in Gavin and Stacey.

Oh, we like Jason in Gavin and Stacey. And he is the guy, do you remember, went on the fishing trip with the Rob Brydon character and something happened. OK, yes. On the fishing trip that's never fully explained. Well, it's never explained. It's often referred to, though, isn't it? So he's a great actor.

This one from Ali. You can send us an email about anything you like. Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Hello, ladies. The music for the podcast is dreadful. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

It doesn't reflect the nature of the podcast. It doesn't complement your voices. It's jarring and really unpleasant. Please change it. Thank you, Ali. This is given some backup from Kate, who's in Launceston in Cornwall. I was in the audience at the Royal Festival Hall.

Oh, yes. We had a residency there. Two whole nights. I do enjoy saying that, don't you? Admittedly, during the pandemic, when audiences were halved. That's right. And you talked about that on the White Wine Question Time podcast with the wonderful Kate Thornton. I will stop the stalker element of the email now,

but Chloe, the emailer from Tuesday's pod, is entirely correct. Your music bed is really irritating. OK, well, that's, I mean, I think evidence is mounting to suggest that somebody needs to do something about that. And that person is not me, sadly, but I'm sure it will be dealt with. Well, I think when when we've been inundated, as many programmes like to say, so we've had two emails about a subject. It's definitely right for referring up. Read Annabelle's email. Annabelle says, Dear Fee and Jane, I've been enjoying your podcast very much. Found out about it during lockdown and since then it's been a joyful addition to my weeks. Being between jobs right now, I prefer the term working on my karma when asked. I love that. I'm so happy that I can hear you every day on Times Radio. This really helps me mentally throughout the week, adding some structure to my day and maintaining and stretching my perspective.

structure to my day and maintaining and stretching my perspective. I hope you will continue being just as you are and so consistently. I find you and your relationship very inspiring. Oh, Annabelle, please. It sounds like you give a damn about each other, your listeners and the world in general. Well, I think to be fair, that's true. There's an element, there is an authenticity to this, isn't there? Oh, God almighty.

Lean on your patch and it's Thursday, it's the end of the week. You will then have a whole 36 hours where you don't have to see me. But, Jane, I might pop round. Oh, no, I've moved, actually. Thank you very much for engaging with this. We appreciate it and we love hearing from you. So the email address is at janeandfeeattimes.radio and yeah actually do criticize criticize whatever you like a bit of gentle encouragement though

really does help doesn't it yes you're great thanks You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can. Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening

and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.