Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A complete PR win for Ikea (with Katya Adler)

Episode Date: March 10, 2026

Jane and Fi have gone beyond broadcasters - they’re now influencers. They have a new air about them… (and that air is green tea and bergamot-scented). They also chat steamed glasses, soirée small talk, giving up smoking, Punch the monkey - and we probably owe a bit of an apology to The Observer... Plus, BBC Europe editor Katya Adler discusses her new documentary Europe on the Edge. Check out our YouTube channel here: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I like the way that you always managed it. You'd make a very, very good professor in a seminar, Eve. Because you bring everybody out of themselves and you push everybody around in the right kind of direction, I think. Yeah, not literally push because it's 2026 and we know that that shouldn't happen. Which takes me back to Vladimir, which I did try and give it another go. And? No, I just don't know why, Jane.

You need to give it a go. because I might just be completely missing something. And I did read, actually, I had to mop up some of Nancy's wee this morning and I had to do that with the observer. And I found myself reading their review as I was dabbing the wee. What did it say?

The review of Vladimir. Well, all about, you know, it's about time somebody made a TV program where the female gaze is the kind of subtext of it. And I completely get that. I mean, I get why it's a great TV show to make. But there's something about it that just made me, I don't know, I just didn't like it, Joe. I just didn't like it.

Did it make you feel a bit? Well, I must give it a try. I'm still with the missing headmaster's wife. Okay, so that's a very different educational drama that you're seeing there. It's on the ITVX. But some of my friends say it's that Vladimir's super. Yes, so there we go. I think a lot of people have put off because they think it's about the other

of lad of it. Yeah, it is an unfortunate first name to be using at the moment. It's a bizarre. I think it's a novel, isn't it? They've just taken the... Presumably, yeah. But there are quite a lot of, you know, there are lingering shots in episode two of Leo Woodall's man spreading

and stuff, and that does, it does make me a wee bit uncomfortable. But as you know, my hand is never very far away from the clutching of pearls. Absolutely. Well, you and me both. So you go for it.

it and let me know what you think. Well, we were both a bit stunned today to be told that we were doing an item on the radio show, get the Times Radio app, it's free, we're on Monday to Thursday between two o'clock and four, and about this Punch the Monkey. I actually thought it was an item about animal cruelty. And I thought, well, why are we doing this? But it's lovely, isn't it? It's a heartwarming tale.

But why is it a heartwarming tale that neither of us knew much about? I confess I hadn't really heard about it. This is the baby monkey. I had a very nasty mother who abandoned him. And also the rest of his troop had as a... zoo in Japan turned on him as well. And he was all alone and had to just settle for an IKEA cuddly toy.

It's very sad. But now he's been welcome back. Yeah, well, good. So they say. So it does have a happy ending. I've just been shown, you know, as you quite often are, aren't you? Just shown something on a phone. And you don't know whether or not to really deeply engage with it as a subject

that might change the world or actually allow your thought patterns to carry on doing what they were doing beforehand and just nod. And unfortunately, I went for the latter. I didn't pay enough attention to it. If I'd known that we'd be featuring it as item number two on the radio show today, I would have taken a bit more interest. But why did the rest of the troop turn against him?

Was it because he'd been abandoned by his mum? So they all kind of went, oh, you know, there's something wrong with you. Yeah, so we're not going to like you either. It's pathetic, isn't it? Punch had previously been dragged and chased by elders inside his enclosure. Oh my God. I mean, sorry, there's no wonder it's taken off. video clips showed him wandering alone with the toy.

Oh, God. But I tell you what, that's a complete PR win for IKEA. Well, it's not bad, and it's not bad for the zoo either, is it? It's almost like they can't possibly... I do remember in my local radio days that you could always rely over a bank holiday weekend on a wonderful berth down at the safari park. Oh, very much second. It was uncanny how you'd get a press release

just the week before the bank holiday weekend. So there was always that. And then around Christmas time, there was always the winter wonderland, you could absolutely count on those two stories. Actually, this Christmas was notable, but I think there was a really unpleasant absence of dreary winter wonderland stories. You know, the place, this is why we're talking about this now, I don't know, but where you just get a really muddy field.

And a rancid reindeer. Yeah, and an irascible-looking father of Christmas having a sly fag at the back of a tent. And some badly dressed drunk elves. Bob Serunk of, welcome to the UK. It'll be 50 quid ahead to come in. But I didn't see any of those. Anyway, we're a long way from having to face such a desperate image again. But yes, Punch the Monkey, very popular

and signs now that they are accepting him again. Well, I should bloody think so. It says here that the mother was a first-time mother and she was inexperienced. Well, maybe she just had a rather nasty bout of postnatal depression. Well, it can't actually, do you know, I was just thinking, Why should it only be a human experience? We're mammals, we're closely linked.

Maybe this proves that it's not. Exactly. But lovely that it does have a happy ending. I keep on inserting this because I just don't want people to be dragged down at the beginning of the podcast. Not at the moment. No, not at the moment. Not at the moment. We have got an erudite guest.

The BBC's Europe editor, Multilingual Katja Adler. And she's been making a documentary series for the High Player. And she's visited some European countries. And there'll be more on this. later. Well, that's fantastic. I think she is one of the people who really managed to nail it with her explanations of what was going on around the time of Brexit and then the post-Brexit kerfuffle and befuddledness. But I can't see an image of her in my head without the flags. No, I know what you mean. Standing outside. Yes. In Brussels. Flegs. Flegs. Everywhere. Actually,

just as you say that, I've been horribly distracted by an image on the monitor, it's a television, the studio, it's Nigel Farage wearing a flat cap to what he's up to. I don't know. He's, oh God, he triggers me. He really, he really, really does. Well, we were watching the TV earlier, weren't we? And he was there in his flat cap, standing next to him now. He has the accoutrement of Robert Jenrick, who was wearing one of those kind of puffer jillet things. And we did think it looked a little bit like a guy, Ritchie spin-off movie, locks stock and two smoking. you're not going to repeat the word you use but it was a good one

insert whatever you like can I just say a couple of hellos which I'd meant to do last week but we slightly ran out of time to Philippa who had a recommendation for the man to go to if you need your lenses removing and changing in your eyes because she's had the same problem she had minus six and minus seven eyes I mean, that is very, very poor eyesight.

One of my daughters, the older one's got sight as bad as that. Okay. Would she consider a lens transfer? Does she mind having glasses and stuff? Well, she doesn't really, I mean, she just doesn't know when she can't remember a life without contacts and specs. And she looks lovely in her specs, so I don't think she really, I mean, what does it matter what she looks like in her glasses? But they suit her. Yeah.

Sometimes I did wear lenses. I found them tiring to wear. Have you worn them? I can't because I've got astigmatisms apparently. It doesn't work. Right. So I tried them again recently just to see what they were. And I couldn't bear it.

They were really drying and unpleasant. So I think that's sadly to say. The moisture goes from everywhere, Fee. It does. Including the eyes. Well, quite interestingly, with your glasses, the moisture goes into your glasses and steams them up. Okay, let's mention what happened yesterday.

Why? What? Well, let's get it out there about the nose blowing. Oh, God, enough to do it. I feel that people... If you didn't have to do it. See it, we'll hear it. Never do.

I haven't had contact with humanity for 20 years. I've probably heard about this. I wasn't actually going to mention that. It's just you always have this weird bit of steaminess in your inside your reading glasses. And this is never, these are very focused. It's never happened in any other glasses I've ever had. Do you think it's because they're quite heavy rimmed and so they're up against your face? Maybe.

Or maybe you've developed a sweaty eye. Maybe I just need windscreen wipers. Something like that. If I, if they hadn't been so bloody. expenses. I'd have gone back to ask why. It must be irritating. Which is why. That's why I investigated the contacts. Yeah, that would drive them bonkers.

Yeah, they're not... Right, tell your nose blowing anecdote. No, I mean... People are a bit excited now. The funny thing about it was, allegedly, according to my offspring, who, as I say, do not engage with my working life, but have seen the video of me blowing my nose

and said the stupid thing about it was that they could see my glasses steaming up as well. That's what I do. We're going to play a blooper, which honestly I just couldn't believe it was happening. Well, hear what the fighting will mean for energy prices in the UK and what you could do right now with our money matters man, Adam Shaw. Vassos returns with the sport to and after 3.30 we talk books with...

That is so, so rewarding with the time. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm very, very sorry. Back away from your radio now, but not too far so you can't hear the latest news headlines with Stuart Willie. So sorry, Stuart. Thank you, good afternoon. How long have we both worked in radio? You just know that you do not. You don't cough into a microphone.

You don't blow your nose into a microphone. You don't swear in front of a microphone. And if you're going to break wind, you try and do that very quality too. And actually, can I just say that weirdly, although I sneeze and everybody sneezes, you almost never sneeze in a live radio studio. It is odd.

It just doesn't happen. And as our. regular correspondent and we honour you, Glynn, did say yesterday, Jane has always boasted that she doesn't fart and if the sound of her blowing her nose is anything to go by, that is just as well. Yeah. But I still stick to that, Glynn. Thank you though for the observation. What, that you don't? I don't. I have a witness and you know that I have a witness. We were both at your house.

Oh, what? Okay, once. Right. Let me move on to green tea disinfectant. No, because I was halfway through an email from Philippa. Shush now. So Philippa said that the new lenses that she had done by Julian Stevens, who she says is your man, is the best thing that she's ever done. And also over the summer months, and I love this idea that you kind of have two jobs. You know, many people do, don't they?

Especially if they work in hospitality or the holiday industry. And Philippa says over the summer months, I work for a company called the Big Blue Swim as a swim guide. And we run swimming holidays in various locations in Greece, where the Lido is actually the sea. Think blindingly blue water, endless sunshine, post-swim, Tsatsiki,

suvacion repeat, and the faint but ever-present urge to dance like Zorba. It's an incredible week. And the invitation is to go and swim with you and I'd really, really love to do that. I'm being a bit naughty by mentioning it here, Philippa, but I'd be interested in other people

who've been on those swim holidays who can only do breaststroke because I can't do front crawl anymore because my shoulders just went a couple of years. I've never been able to do front crawl. Oh, okay. So you'd be in a similar position because I'd love to go and do one of those.

Front crawl is that one? Yes, it is. Yeah. Although you might want to work on the technique could admit that. This is where it would be great as that would be visualised. Yeah, so breaststroke is the one

where you're a little bit like a turtour. We do a version of that at tortoise. Okay. But I've always thought that you can't go on one of those kind of swim holidays unless you can do front crawl because you're just a bit slower, quite a bit slower, than everybody else. So I pop it out there to the hive. I know we've got loads and loads of swimmers who listen.

Have you been on those kind of holidays? And is it embarrassing if you can't do the kicking stroke? Right, you may talk now. Here's Hazel. Jane and Fee, I also like that M&S disinfectant. You have become influencers. I think in our own small way, we are. I'm finding the smell reminiscent of something from my past.

Could it be Elizabeth Arden green tea? Well, Hazel, I've wanted to read this. out because I was at an airport a couple of years ago and I, it was on special offer, Elizabeth Arden Green Tea, and I bought some and I do absolutely love that smell. I think it's a very, very old scent, but there's something about it. It's really refreshing. And I don't associate it with disinfectant. I just find it faintly nostalgic and yeah, it just gives you that little bit of spring zing. But it must be a similar scent. Yes, probably would be. Because the M&S one is green tea and burgomot. There we go. Yeah. So the other part of that,

the burgomot. Do you remember burgosol, sun cream and sun oil, which did smell of burgomot? It was just divine, really, really divine. And it had that spooky advertisement that we would not countenance now of two women sitting on the side of a swimming pool, and one of them has used burgosol and the other one hasn't, and the one who's used burgomol is a very, very dark kind of, you know, shoe sole kind of leathery brown, and the other one is pale. And you didn't. want to be pale. You were aiming for that leathery brown. But the smell of Bergersol is just divine. That can take me right back to the summer of 1984. Where were you then? I would have been in Winchester. It would have been just before my O levels. Yeah, it was sexy stuff, Joe. I bet. Yeah.

It really was. Winchester in the 80s. Certainly was. We used to go and lie on the playing fields, and we actually used to cover ourselves in baby oil. He couldn't always afford, or he couldn't afford some cream until he went on holiday. but we would coat ourselves in baby oil and fry on the playing field outside school. Is that terrible? Is that entirely safe? No, it wasn't safe. No.

But we just didn't. I think our knowledge about skin and skin protection is hugely, what's the right word? We've accelerated through that knowledge quite quickly. And now if I look at all of the products on offer, and of course it's about making money, isn't it, for companies. But, you know, part of it is, is fear, isn't it, that makes us buy SPF and all of the rest of it and whatever. They've tapped into that quite well and quite rightly, I suppose.

Yes. I must admit, I probably, you're always being told, aren't you, that you need to wear an SPF all year round, even in Britain. I mean, I know, I can't say I particularly do. I probably should. Should I? I don't know. Well, you probably should because you've got very, very pale skin.

And actually I always do because I've got that funny thing on my, I've got one of those big sunspot things on my face. So I'm always quite careful about that. And also because I think, you know, we did expose ourselves to the sun in all of the wrong ways, way too much when we were teenagers. So I'm quite careful about that now. But also I never understand that connection between vitamin D and sun cream because loads of people in the UK have a vitamin D deficiency

because, you know, we do have quite long winters and not enough sunshine. and if you're wearing high SPF all the time then nothing's ever going to get through even when the sun does shine. How are you going to get your vitamin D? Where to turn? Somebody listening will know an expert. And we can't eat the macro either at the moment, can we?

Because they're on the verge of extinction. It doesn't matter because normally if you've eaten a macro any time in the last 10 years, you can usually still taste it, can't you? That's very true. It hangs around a bit. Kerry says, this is about the subject of small talk. We were talking, weren't we, about people who've been to lots of different schools

and how sometimes you can find that your small talk game is really, really good, but you do find it quite hard to get close to people. You find it perhaps more of a struggle than some other people might. And Kerry says, having friends from all walks of life, the most fascinating thing for me in this area are old money people. There is never a gap in the conversation flow. It's astonishing, and I don't know how they do it. Being quite lazy myself and happy with an amiable silence,

it makes me realise small talk is an art form but it must be exhausting okay do you agree and I think carries on to something here the people I mean old money is a challenging phrase in some ways but that people who should we say are not exactly riddled with self-doubt do find making what we might call small talk easier because I don't think they believe for one minute that what they're saying isn't very interesting indeed

and I'm not criticising them for it I think it's quite charming actually in its own way. I'm sure that is the case. But could it also be born of an expectation that, you know, when you're in the room, it is on you to start the conversation and keep it going? You know, maybe you've grown up in that kind of family where actually there's a lot of hospitality going on all the time. And, you know, you're the one who has to take round your little silver salver

of cheese straws at the drinks party and all of that malarkey. It's like a Miranda sketch. Maybe that's it. Bridget Jones is. What was that family barbecue? No, family drinks party she had to go to on Boxing Day. Was that Bridget Jones? With the Christmas jumpers.

Yes. Yeah. So that. Yes. And there can be, I mean, in those kind of, that kind of drinks party thing, there is a kind of, there's a level of twittering going on, isn't there? There is. I think if you dissected it, what's really being said? It's very interesting.

I mean, you wouldn't ever disclose a really important emotional, Well, you'd be careful enough to avoid real emotion, wouldn't you, in those situations? There'll be a lot of chat about routes and weather and weather forecasts. And what else is deemed entirely acceptable in almost every social setting as a topic? I think previous engagements and future engagements. How do you keep yourself busy these days? Yes, the health and well-being of your children. Although, obviously, you wouldn't give away any kind of misdemeanors that were happening.

No, so you'd be boasting, basically. Well, it'll be the equivalent of those round robbing Christmas letters. Oh, God. So all of that. And I think there's a, it sounds like we're both being really patronising and cynical about it. But quite often those people, they are buoying up communities and houses and places and playgrounds and all of that. So let's not knock them too much. A hundred percent, I agree.

And I think it's often actually on women, isn't it, to facilitate social occasions and keep the conversation flowing. And also on us to ask questions. Oh my God. Well, we all know that. Yeah, bloody hell. Yeah. And, you know, you can find yourself on question number 23. Yeah.

And actually, you'd just really love to start a sentence with I and just tell them something. But you don't get the opportunity, do you? Well, to be fair, I often do. Well, that's true. I shoehorn myself in. Let's just own it. I'm not going to try and argue too much against that. I just want to mention that Kerry... Do you think you only ask questions for money?

Yes. Yes. Oh, God, you've spotted it. Kerry remembers that I cleaned out my fridge recently and discovered that I had four jars for horseradish. Heading off to do a stretch of the coast path in Dorset, says Kerry. I fancied an egg and mayo sandwich to take with me. I'd never choose that. But anyway, a husband and teenager went for cheese. It was such a lovely walk. We sat on a hill overlooking Lulworth Cove.

24 hours later, I began to feel a bit strange and barely made it to the bathroom. I'll spare you any further details, but suffice to say, it was unpleasant. On FaceTime with older kids trying to trace the cause, my eldest son said, he didn't use that mayo at the back of the fridge, did you? Of course I had.

Needless to say, a clear out of all ancient condiments followed. Well, I mean, let's just take this lesson in life from Kerry. P.S. we finished all 639 miles of the coast path, unlike some who claimed to have. The youngest son started with us at the age of 12 and he was 18 when he'd finished. Wow. When you'd all finished. Well, congratulations to all of you. It became harder to get him going as he got older, but he still says it's one of the best things he's ever done.

Actually, I really admire that. What a lovely thing to have done as a family? Fantastic. It's really good, isn't it? It is. Would you be able to have done it? No. I couldn't have got them to do it, no.

Me neither. Giving up smoking. Now, thank you for this, Liz Cooper. I thought you might be interested in how my father gave up smoking to put it into context. My daughter was three at the time and she'll be 52 tomorrow. Well, many, many happy returns. My parents lived in South Devon. We spent all our holidays there. After a day out on Dartmoor, we were relaxing with a cup of tea in the garden.

My dad then appeared and announced that he'd just had his last cigarette. We were amazed because he'd smoked quite heavily all his life and tried several times to give up. He was obviously very upset about something. Back to earlier in the day, being a typical wet day, we had to have our picnic in the car. So to make room in the back of the car, my mum said to my daughter, you go in the front with Grampy. Quite innocently, she said, no, he smells.

He never smoked again. As you can imagine, it was a terrible blow to a loving grandfather. Unfortunately, as the oncologist told him, it was too late, and he did later die of lung cancer. and Liz says that she's been listening to us since the other place well we need a special badge for that really don't we and email before and had some of them read out on the podcast well keep them coming if you've had something read out on the podcast

it certainly doesn't mean that we won't be able to read future correspondence out because we're just not that organised are we? We're really not and we also we appreciate loyalty we do and also it's just worth saying your emails are brilliant and they're so brilliantly written as well you're just really you're clever funny people and we like you. Yeah, we certainly do.

So that would work, wouldn't it, if you're an adult? And it would be heartbreaking. I think, you know, any parent who smokes when they get caught out by their kids, it's just a horrible, embarrassing, weak, difficult moment. But I'm also really interested to hear of success stories of how people have got their kids to stop smoking or to never start in the first place.

I just don't know what that cut through is. Thank you for your comments about yesterday's visualised version of Offair with Jane and Fee, which is available where? It's on the YouTube. And if you type in Offair with Jane and Fee, you can get the whole episode in all of its gorgeous glory. It is worth noting that obviously, you know, we're part of a digital world that we also feel quite free and criticising from time to time. I would just say when I watched a little bit of it at home last night, on the sidebar, the first alternative video that you will. them be encouraged to go and watch spring jackets on this morning. Spring jackets.

A discussion of spring jackets on the ITV show this morning. Right, so nothing about geopolitics or... No. No. What does that tell you about? Well, that's governed by YouTube's view of people who might watch our podcast. Certainly is. Okay, well, there we are.

Actually, at the moment, we are going through... I don't think either of us are on either Instagram or... We're both deleted X, haven't we? We're not on there. not on there so I've got Instagram I haven't come off Instagram but I don't have it on my phone

okay I suppose I haven't come off it I'm just not looking at it which means that I don't know where any of my friends are on holiday thank God I know I'm finding it incredibly difficult to keep up with Elizabeth Day but I'm coping it's all right

I know she's out there still being brilliant I just I didn't have room for that scrolling in my day actually Jane I was taking a bit too much time and I just bought a lot of rubbish. Well, we were both a little susceptible to that. Yeah, I just found my life

had just become invaded by fitted sheets. Dora just said, I don't need any more toys. Stop buying me toys. Stop amusing me. This one comes in from Rachel from Somerset, and thank you for this. It's always good to be slightly pulled up by your belt and braces. And this is what Rachel says.

Just watched a few minutes of the pod on YouTube. It was very good to see the matching outfits. I said that we should have, we should have corresponded with each other before. We look like Tweedledum and Tweedledee. And she also liked the fire and Jane's lip gloss. Let's hope those two things don't get too close. But we'll return to the listening only version

as you keep me company on my commute home. Well, that's absolutely fine. Nothing changes. No. The content doesn't change at all. It's just you get to see our silly facial expressions. Just a little concerned that Fia has not been selling her house very well. and may not sell to any fellow listeners.

Over the years, Fee's mentioned a broken boiler. Bathroom door that swings open. Paul flushing downstairs loo, bad workmanship on the patio. Put in an offer well below the asking price. It's worth it. And now the animal aroma.

I know most of these things are getting fixed, but please, Fee, you need to sell your house a bit better. Obviously, don't go for an estate agent on us, though. It's such a good point, Rachel. It is a good point. point. So actually I just say a big hello to Carl and Paul who are currently they're painting and decorating in the kitchen today. I'm sorting things out at one tragic domestic incident at a time. You've done it again! The house is lovely. It's

in a very, very nice part of London. Yeah no I should I should say it's flooded with natural light. Not flooded, it's flooded with natural light. Do be careful. Do you want to sell this gaff? Obviously not. I don't really, but I am. Let's bring in anonymous. I think you may be overstating it, dear wise and worldly inhabitants of the Jane and Fee universe. Actually, we'll take that.

Yeah, because that's our listeners, not us. Yes, exactly. Now, this, I'm intrigued by this. Our son, our lovely daughter-in-law, and I am going to keep some of the details a bit vague, because we don't want to dob this lady in. Our son, our daughter-in-law, and our two energetic grandsons

are about to move in with us for somewhere between three and three, five months while they bridge the gap between house moves. Now, as everybody knows, it may be a lot longer than five months, mightn't it? It could be. My husband and I have had the place to ourselves for quite a few years, says Anonymous. Since our three children flew the nest, we've been happily settling into the gentle rhythms of almost retirement. Cups of tea drunk while still hot. Radio four heard with Radio 4, heard without interruption, and now it's time for Moneybox. And the general luxury...

Do you have 75,000 pounds in a while I'm saying? No, I don't. And the general luxury of peace, quiet, and a dishwasher that only needs running every couple of days. So I find myself wondering, what exactly will happen when the entire family unit descends upon us? Well, it's a good question. On the one hand, it could be rather wonderful. And of course, it could. couldn't it fee? It will be such a treat to see our grandsons every day and to be part of the small

ordinary moments of their lives. Are you sure? On the other hand, I do have a small nagging worry. Will we all, despite the very best intentions, end up mildly irritating one another? I've heard the cautionary tales of host mothers who suddenly find themselves cast as unpaid housekeeper, cook and washer-upper for their perfectly capable adult children and their partners. We all genuinely want this to be a happy and harmonious arrangement, but I can't help wondering whether there are pitfalls we simply haven't even thought of yet. We are already considering investing in some industrial strength ear defenders for the inevitable bouts of play fighting. But I would love to hear the wisdom, warnings and survival

tips of any listeners who've hosted their adult children and grandchildren for an extended stay. Well, I think this is a really lovely dilemma to have. First of all, how wonderful to have smashing grandchildren, a couple of little lads, and they are going to be running around, and it's going to be absolutely fabulous, and also at times, challenging, slightly challenging. So we'll definitely, definitely take people's experiences on that. You probably just have to write from the get-go, are you going to blow that? Yeah, I think so. Thank you, Eve. And keep it off for a little while.

It's all right. It's happened. It's happened. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I actually, the problem with your nose blowing yesterday is I didn't probably feel like I had your snot in my ear. I actually...

Because the headphones are very... They are. They're quite sensitive. Yes. I actually sounded like a bloke. I sounded like a... You did. 22 stone truck driver.

Yeah. Better out than in, I feel so much better to do. Hats off to... Stuart Willie, our newsread and not losing it. Yeah, Ben, I mean, he managed that fabulously. I think to our dear correspondent, you've just got to have a timetable, haven't you, from the outset? You've got to put your rules in first.

You've got to get, I think you probably have got to get some ground rules. This happened to a friend of mine, and it was lovely, but sometimes it really wasn't. It was properly difficult. And also, all households are odd in their own way, aren't they? I completely own that. Well, they are. And I think the older you get, the more you are absolutely entitled to enjoy the rhythm of your own life.

It's what you've earned. You've brought up a family already. As you say, you've got your quiet time sorted. You've probably just the air in the house is kind of, it's circulating the way that you want it to. And it's just going to change, isn't it? It really is. And I haven't mentioned the age of the boys, but they are quite young and they are going to be perky. and I just think

I do feel I can see this but it's in a beautiful part of the home counties and I can just hear the wireless playing some wonderful uplifting documentary on the history of the Thimble and all of a sudden you've got two youngsters

having a lively debate which might involve a spherical object and I just think yeah Tadada, peace and harmony Hello family Maybe have some holidays booked in, you know, so you've got stuff to look forward to yourself. You certainly shouldn't find yourself doing all the domestic stuff when you've got two able-bodied parents of people there, should you? I mean, that's just crazy.

You shouldn't, but sometimes, and I know that I do this myself, I will do the domestic stuff because there's a certain way of doing it that I like. Oh, you see, that's the other problem. And I don't want somebody else to do it their way. So I'll end up saying, no, no, no, I'll do that. Don't worry, I'll do that. Well, actually it would be lovely to just go and put my feet up and somebody else to it, but I'm a bit... I think the reason we find it hard is because it does, it challenges our own ways of living and makes us realize how peculiar we are. And I am one of those peculiar people.

I do have my little fads and fussy ways of doing certain things and I can't bear it when it's challenged. Yeah. But that's my idiocy. And I do notice more and more, you know, going on holiday with friends or, you know, weekends or where, whatever it is, you know, people just are so stuck in their habits. You know, some people's idea of making a cup of coffee, I mean, you practically need a UN resolution on how they're doing it. You just got to, okay, you go and do it because I'm going to do it wrong. You know, I'm not frothing the right way or putting the milk in here

or the sugar in first or whatever it is. But it's what's making that person's life tick. So, I mean, we weren't like that when we were younger. You just pile on in, don't you? I went with the flow. Yeah, but you do. You're used to sharing houses and all of that kind of stuff. But I think by the time you get to retirement, that is just quite an ask.

And I hope that your family are grateful because that is a massive ask. I think it might be challenging at times, but I suspect you'll look back on this period impending in a couple of years and think, well, that was lovely. And it was lovely to be with them while they were growing up and seeing how. Have I talked you into it yet? No. No.

Eva's lent forward as well, and it's not because she's become fascinated by these pearls of wisdom that were dropping carelessly across the desk. It's because our time is up, yeah. Well, I think once again, we fall foul of the judgment of the younger generation. So you're going to read a cue into Katja Adler. I'm going to wave a flag in the background. Where is it? She was based at the European Commission in Brussels. Brussels.

You know Brussels well. Thank you. It is interesting this documentary series she's made. She's a big fan of Germany, Katir Adler. And she does make the point that British tourists used to visit Germany in huge numbers. frankly, after the Second World War, we've just never gone back. There's a really interesting statistic here. Germany receives the fewest British tourists of the four countries that she visits in this series. The latest data on travel from the UK Office for National Statistics says

that in 2024, UK residents made 13 times more trips to Spain for a holiday than to Germany. And yet, there is some spectacular German scenery in these shows, which I think people would really enjoy. Do you know what the statistic is for German visitors here? No. Or nine. I'm not multilingual, unlike Katya. I do have a no level in German. As I think I've just illustrated.

Yes, okay, let's get on. Katja Adler, who's brilliant, by the way, has been the BBC's Europe editor for 12 years. Her three-part documentary, Europe on the Edge, is available on the eye player now. What is Europe to do? While war rages in the Middle East, Russia becomes increasingly aggressive

and the US is not a reliable ally anymore and who deals best with the current resident of the White House? Katya journeys across the continent visiting Italy, France, Spain and Germany. So it's what I call a big four next door, right? Jim, because at the moment, whether it was previous Conservative Prime Minister since Brexit or now with Sakeir Stama,

they're saying that in the world that we live in, which is extremely unpredictable at the moment. We need to work better together with our European neighbours, particularly when it comes to security and defence, but in all sorts of areas of mutual interest. And so this is a look at the big four next door. So it's France, Germany, Italy, Spain, the biggest economies on mainland Europe.

You know, if we need to work better together, if we want to rely on them more, it makes sense to know them better, to understand their strengths and their weaknesses where we can rely on them or not. But I think also it's important to say, you know, we live in quite scary times and I think the news agenda can feel really overwhelming. And obviously we put together this series before the US and Israeli attacks on Iran, but the intention even then was to do this with a light touch.

So, you know, these are countries that we think we know. But this is really getting under the skin, but also with a bit of joy in there as well. So not all doom. No, no, far from it. And thank goodness there is some joy and beauty, which is really important to emphasise. There's some wonderful scenery in these programmes. Can we just briefly, and we should explain, we're talking on Monday, which of the major European powers is closest to Trump as we speak?

Has Georgia Maloney assumed the role? of Europe's chief Trump whisperer, would you say? Well, there are a number vying for that role, aren't they? I mean, the Prime Minister thought he had the role. George Maloney, definitely, she's among very few European leaders to have a truly warm relationship with Donald Trump. She was also very close to Elon Musk as well. You've obviously got Viktor Orban in Hungary.

I think amongst those four, definitely Italy with the closest relationship. And I think, you know, while we're looking at least, looking at things going on in Iran, you can see that Friedrich Meertz, though, the German Chancellor is also vying to have sort of a seat close to Donald Trump. And I think when we talk now about European powers needing to work better together, Iran is a really good example, Jane, of where this often stumbles, because at the end of the day, it's each country for themselves. And sometimes each government or each politician for themselves, where they act in what they think is their best interest. And I think if you have a look at Germany and Spain when it comes to Iran, you know,

you really see this in sharp relief. So, Kredich Mertz was straight out there after the initial attacks on Iran, Israeli, American attack saying, you know, there's no point criticizing our allies at times like this. And there's little use really in looking at international law. Whereas Spain's prime minister, Sanchez said, this is definitely outside international law. And he was extremely outspoken. When Donald Trump last week hit back at Spain and said he wanted to slap a massive trade embargo at Spain to punish it for what it was saying about the attacks on Iran and also the fact that Spain said that the US could not use military bases in Spain to launch attacks on Iran from, who was sitting next to Donald Trump? It was Friedrich Mertz of Germany. And did he

say anything to support his European ally? He said not a word. Now, you can have a lot of have a look at why Friedrich Mautz might have done that. He wants to be close to Donald Trump. He's looking at his spluttering economy like all major economies in Europe, the German economy, once the powerhouse is now really, you know, really struggling. Those exports that Germany relies on are very energy hungry. We're looking at cars. We're looking at the chemical industry. And since Germany has lost access to cheap Russian energy because of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine and the sanctions, it now relies for 96% of its access to liquefied natural gas, LNG, on the United States and the United States is Germany's second largest trade partner. So you can see why

Friedrichmelt might have kept silent, but it does not do very much for an image of European unity that Europe says is important. So I completely appreciate what you're saying about Germany. Why do the Spanish feel free, if you like, to take their stance then? So Spain relies less on the United States for trade and Pedro Sanchez at home is extremely unpopular. He rises in opinion polls when he stands up against Donald Trump, which he's done on a number of occasions. He was very outspoken over the war in Gaza, but particularly with Donald Trump, when Donald Trump, and of course he's not the first US president to do so, pressed European allies insisted that they spend more on their own defense. was signed off at a NATO summit last summer.

The only country to say no was Spain. And that played very well at home. Also, I mean, and these things can be true at the same time. There may be cynical, political reasons why Spain's taking this stance. But also Pedro Sanchez believes in this. He believes that the attacks on Iran right now were outside of international law. He does believe, he says, in an international rule-based order, which he thinks is being eroded.

those two things can be true at the same time. Right. And interestingly, in the first of these documentaries you've made, you're in Italy, and you, I mean, you've pointed out that Maloney personally has a good relationship with Donald Trump, but I was really interested in the part of the documentary that showed that the Italian public,

quite a chunk, really mistrust the USA, don't they? And they've never really liked American influence very much. They've been very US skeptic. And I think what's interesting, to know what I show in the documentary is there is a section in Italy that's very sympathetic to the Russian narrative as well, which is something quite separate. You may not know that during the Cold War, for example, Italy's Communist Party was the biggest in Western Europe. And there was a very long time, a lot of skepticism about NATO. And also, I think what I show in the documentary is

that Italians just don't trust the states. They don't trust the government as a force. And this goes back centuries in Italy. It's still quite a young country. And in the years, hundreds of years, before it became independent in the 1860s, Italy was permanently, well, the country that is now Italy, parts of it were permanently being conquered by one power over another. And so Italians learned to trust the very, very few. So when it comes to the war in Ukraine, for example, straight after that full-scale invasion of Ukraine, we've now marked the four-year anniversary of that just now. Italy stood out as the only Western country where the majority of Italians didn't want to send weapons to help Ukraine. And now, four years later, it's only 15% of Italians that want

anyone in Europe or the United States to send weapons to Ukraine, not because they don't care about Ukrainians, they say, but because they don't trust their state, their government to protect them from any knock on effects, whether it's rising energy prices or any kind of reprisals from Russia. So that's really what this series is about. It's just understanding where attitudes come from. Right. I mean, it really is, it's a fascinating glimpse.

And Germany is a country that, I'm afraid it's still true, isn't it, that in this country, we associate Germany with only one thing. And actually, it's a country that Britain or British visitors used to flock to, because it is beautiful. There's so much to see there and so much to do. But I was really really startled by how, you know, the crumbling infrastructure that you show, those broken bridges. Germany appears to be falling apart.

I think Germany has been going through a sort of an identity crisis that is symbolized in those crumbling bridges. There's thousands of them that have been sort of closed down because they need repairs. The whole German system that it got so famous for, Germany being so efficient. and German economy roaring for on behalf of all of Europe, really, is how it was traditionally seen. But it relied very much on the outside world. So it relied on selling to China, selling to the United States, having its security guaranteed by the United States, and running on cheap energy from Russia. And each one of those things that can no longer rely on.

That's caused a crisis in its industry and its economy. And what was then revealed was actually there was a whole load of promise. infrastructure. I mean, also, it has this shiny, efficient image, Germany, but I can't get over every time I go there. How, you know, people still use faxes in Germany. Never mind the fact that your mobile phone often can't get reception there. And then there's the state of the road. So under Angela Merkel, for example, who was prime minister for 16 years, there was so little internal investment in Germany. It just was not a country that invested in its own infrastructure. And that's really come home to roost. Also when you want to help Ukraine, Jane, because if you think

about it, if you want to use traditional armory, and there has been, especially at the beginning of the war, you know, bigger reliance on tanks and, you know, sort of traditional machinery, you have to be able to move that across Europe. And Germany is a big artery there. But if it's roads and its bridges aren't up to the task, I mean, you know, this says something about the country itself. So now you have a government that says, right, we are now going to invest big time in our defense and in our infrastructure. And by 2029, NATO says that Germany wants to spend more on its defense than France and the United Kingdom put together. It wants to build the biggest conventional army. I think it's interesting, as you say, Germany, often people only think of one thing,

and I think you're referring to the Second World War there. But 80 years after that, the fact that Germany wants to build the biggest conventional army. And now that it's so rooted in the EU and so rooted in NATO, actually that's looked at with relief by its European allies and neighbours rather than with apprehension. And what about Brexit? I mean, does anybody care? Does anybody mention us? What do they think of the UK? So it's not that people don't care. They care. And Europeans would still rather we were in than out. But the rancour, the bitterness, everything that I covered as Europe editor during the negotiations, it's just evaporated. The idea of us joining or the conversation, thought of us joining, rejoining is something you only hear of here in the UK.

It's not something that's discussed in European circles. What they do do is they look at us now with a lot of warmth, a lot of respect. I think Russia's full-scale invasion four years ago made a massive effect, the fact that the UK took a leading role. the fact that the UK wants to work together more when it comes to energy security, when it comes to more conventional security, that is absolutely welcomed. And because we live in this very unpredictable world, I mean, right now the Middle East is burning, but Europe faces this, you know, Russia, which is, you know, it's an aggressive Russia that wants to expand. You know, the common understanding across Europe is if Russia isn't stopped in Ukraine, it will look to

spread its influence further into Europe as it wants to redress the security balance after after the Cold War. We've got an economically aggressive China and we have an increasingly unpredictable best friend abroad, the United States. And so, you know, Europe is contending with all of that. So it makes sense that the powers in Europe want to work together. And what the EU is realizing more and more is that it is absolutely impossible on the world stage to get 27 countries all agreeing when it. comes to foreign policy or even security and defense. So we're seeing more and more kind of ad hoc groups of, you know, coalitions of the willing, if you like. I mean, there is the labeled

coalition of the willing on Ukraine, of course, which is led by the UK and France. Then there's smaller groupings like the UK and Norway when it comes from wanting to track, you know, Russian subs. And then you have the Baltic states, the Nordic states with Canada, which is almost becoming a glorified European country, looking at safeguarding their parts of the world. And they feel that they share common values and more and more cooperation with so-called like-minded allies, Japan, South Korea, Australia. So you're seeing much more of a mix of different groupings when it comes to self-interest. So these are really interesting as well as threatening times. But as I say with this documentary, we try not to clobber anyone over the head of it.

This is a softer glide through the big four next door and just understanding a little bit where we can rely on them more and sometimes less. Katia, I know you are based in Brussels. If you had to pick another of these European locations as your base, which one would you go for in terms of prosperity, a sense of happiness, a sense of optimism? Oh, Jane, that's really, really, really hard. That's like putting lots of really good cakes in front of me

and asking me to choose and what I would normally do. And I feel we might be sisters in this. I would ask for one spoon, multiple plates and take a bit out of each one. And that is how I feel about these countries and, you know, others in Europe. I still, I really feel this is an incredible continent, you know, whether it comes to natural beauty, food, culture, history, but also the fact that we do, I mean, you know, we live in very cynical times. but things are never black and white. Basically, European countries tend to share certain values about humanity and the rules that we would like to live by.

And I believe that still exists today. And I think, again, that's why Europe on the edge sounds hard, but what we do is nothing against them, but we don't talk to politicians and we don't talk to journalists either. This is about the humanity of Europe and understanding the humans who live next door. And I think it's really important in these times that we don't lose our humanity or our trust in humans

wherever they live in the world, and however they are touched by these events, without wanting to sound too moralising. That sounds a bit dreadful, doesn't it? I'm going to write down that your answer to that question was Spain. Okay, thank you. She is fantastic. That is Katia Adler, the BBC's Europe editor.

And I do recommend this series on the eye player. Europe on the edge. Which of those four countries would you be happiest in, do you think? France. France, really? Okay. Without a shadow. You didn't even have to think. I love the cheese. I love the ancient rural aspects of it. I love the bread. You like Johnny Halliday. I don't like their misogyny. I'd struggle with that. But the rest of it, absolutely. Bring it home. Right, okay. I don't think I could give an answer really. A lot of people say, oh, Italy because of the pasta, but I still wrestle with that holiday I had at Lake Como, which I could, do you remember that one where I couldn't afford it? But we got a last minute.com and I had to keep going to the supermarket to buy drinks. Anyway, I don't know why. I can't quite forget that. So it wouldn't be Italy, although I did have a memorable meal on that holiday as well, which I did absolutely love. I suppose I'd probably, no, I just want to stay in Britain. Right, okay, that was Katia Adler, and it's, Europe on the edge out now.

Thank you very much for your emails. Jane and Fee at times dot radio. You're going to stop? No. I hope I never have to stop. Bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow

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