Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A cosy festival of hunker-downer-dom

Episode Date: March 9, 2023

Jane and Fi start a fond and long farewell to the podcast music, and Jane gives her latest theatre review. They're also joined by Pulitzer Prize winning journalist James B. Stewart, on his new book "Unscripted." If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Kate LeeTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Oh, that's an interesting one from Anne Godfrey in Cork City, Ireland. Dear Jane and Fee, may I stand up for your much maligned theme tune? After a hard day working in admin in the Irish health service, I like nothing better than logging on to your podcast and having a quick bop around my kitchen to the off-air tune as I get my dinner ready. Incidentally, I'll be 60 this year and have recently realised that my cooking skills have not advanced much since 1984. Of course, compared to global warming, failing health systems and the reality of women still

having to juggle everything, the loss of a signature tune is of minimal import. But I just thought I would stand up for it. Well, do you know what, Anne? Here goes. This might be one of the last times that you hear it. Get a bit of a jiggle on. There you go. Well, we might be on our own, but Anne in Cork enjoyed that. Have you been to Cork? It's a lovely place. No, I haven't visited the southern part of Ireland very much at all. No, well, I've been on a few family holidays, actually,

and Cork is absolutely gorgeous. In fact, I really must go back. I really must go back to Ireland. I wonder whether they'd have me permanently. What do you think? I would move there. I think they'd welcome you because you can tap into your Irish roots and then you can tell them all about how you're from Liverpool. That's right. They're with links to Ireland and I suspect

they'd be completely gripped like hell. Yeah, but the thing is, if you did that, you would be amongst a lot of people with that story. It's like joe biden i'm irish joe you're not okay um i can't remember which great great great grandparent he claims um to be born in ireland and i'm sure they were born in ireland but i'm always of the view that it doesn't make you it didn't make you anything because you have all of us or practically every

single person in britain has a great great great grandparent born in ireland i bet all of us, practically every single person in Britain has a great, great, great grandparent born in Ireland. I bet most of us do. I bet statistically there's a really high chance that everybody has at least one great, great, great grandparent born in Ireland. Yeah, fair enough. Have I made myself clear? Yes, you have. Right, okay. Anne would like to

correct us on the pronunciation. So we did all of those pronunciations at the Belgian place yesterday. Michelin? No, none of them were right. Oh, no. So Anne says it's McCarlan. Oh, for God's sake.

I know, the one that we didn't try. But Anne says, by the way, I spent an enormous amount of time right near there, so please pass on my address. Because we were hearing from a correspondent who was about to move there and wanted some friendship. So we might put you in touch.

Well, I hope we can. That would be great. Now, we mentioned, I think, on the podcast yesterday that Fee was going out and about empowering. And you've got some praise for your empowering last night. This is in the week of International Women's Day when, as we discussed yesterday, women do tend to be asked to go to empower. It's rather laughable.

We're both five foot one and we're asked to go out. Go on! Get out there! Empower others to be like you. I know, and there's a bit of a worry, isn't there? Because you do think, I'm just going to turn up to these places looking completely shattered. And not all that powered.

Not that powered. No. Right, Melanie says, I have treated myself to a large vessel of tea and a stack of biscuits and I've tuned into your show when I really should be working. This is the Times radio show. However, as yesterday started at 6am and ended 20 hours later,

I think I deserve it. Thank you, Fi, for coming along to our International Women's Day event and speaking so positively to us all. After an intense evening, your talk was a tonic and an invigorating way to conclude. I'm still chuckling about you being allowed to read the travel and then the travel and the weather. You should be so proud. You're an inspiration to me.

Thank you. I'm going to finish this. Thank you for your creative brilliance, quick wit and wonderful weather. You should be so proud. You're an inspiration to me. Thank you. I'm going to finish this. Thank you for your creative brilliance, quick wit and wonderful humour. And it cost me quite a lot personally to read that out. I have done it. And more power to the little lady for turning up last night

and empowering so many folk. I tell you what, International Women's Day is not easy on many levels. I wish you the very best of luck with your empowering tonight. Yes. I think, actually, yours is a slightly shorter straw

because we're at the end of our working week now, aren't we? Well, we are. Well, though we're not, though, are we? Because we're actually working tomorrow night as well. Just in case anybody's in London could get to London for tomorrow night, we're at the Women of the World Festival and the highlights of that show will be at Times Radio podcast at some point in the near future.

But we've got Mayra Sayal is going to be with us on stage tomorrow night, half past seven, and also June Oscar, who is an Aboriginal rights... She's a commissioner and she's a very important woman and speaks very passionately about the rights of Aboriginal women and girls in particular. We'll also be chatting a little bit about the week's news and we would very much welcome your participation in that. It's kind of open mic at the Royal Festival Hall.

It is and there are going to be people, you can either come to the mic to speak if you want to. It's more of our conversation that we're having actually at half past seven tomorrow. So it would be lovely to see you if you're there. Drinks are available. There is a bar there. So it would be lovely to see you if you're there. Drinks are available. There is a bar there. I know, you know.

And mine's a dry carver and Jane's is a... What is yours at the moment? Do you know, I've just got into Wait Wayne. Wait Wayne? Yes. And so I'm having an evening and my daughter, I've noticed, has begun to comment on this. Are you drinking again? But I literally have one really small glass of Wait Wayne.

Do you know what? Will Lyons will be very, very pleased to hear that. Yes, it's him. He's actually beginning to convert me. And although having said that, I went to the theatre last night and had a rum punch. A rum punch? I know, and that was absolutely lovely. A rum punch? Yes. Seriously?

I did feel a bit squiffy. Did it have a cherry on top? No, it was actually really lovely. Mini umbrella? It didn't have a brolly. Slash of pineapple? But it was quite a punchy rum punch, yeah. This is a play, actually, if you're in the Shepherds Bush area,

it's called Sleepover. Now, I know people look forward to my theatrical reviews. So very much so. Sit back, everybody, pour yourself a nice little rum punch and off she goes. Jane has been to the theatre. I have. To the Bush Theatre in Shepherd's Bush to see a play called Sleepover and actually you'll have to get a wiggle

on because I think it's sold out over the weekend. It's a really I was going to say sweet play which sounds like I'm being very patronising. It's about four young women. They are great school friends. They've been together through a lot.

It's called Sleepover, and it's about a succession of sleepovers and social events that they have during the course of about a year and a bit. And they grow up and things change and there are all sorts of challenges. But they're all good. All the actresses in it are good. But Bucky Backray is in it. And if you've seen the film Rocks, you will know that she is astonishing. She's just got that presence that marks just some people out as being really special. And I know she's gone on to great success.

I think she's doing a show on Apple TV in a couple of weeks. It's either out already or it's going to be out very soon. So she's going places. And I think it's probably it might not be all that long that you can get to see people of her sort of quality on stage in a theatre like that one, the Bush Theatre in Shepherd's Bush. So also fantastic to see, actually, genuinely, a theatre audience that was, I would say, well, not by no stretch of the imagination was it 100% white. And let's be honest about this. If you go to the theatre in a lot, even in London,

it is overwhelmingly a white and frankly silver-haired audience on many occasions. Nothing like that last night. And really, really good to see it actually. Brilliant. It sounds good. I like those plays where you're caught up in just one event. You know, I struggle sometimes with seeing plays

where you're expected to, you know, the scenery changes and you're suddenly looking out over a lake. And then the scenery changes again and you're in somebody's sitting room. I like it when you're just in something with the actors. So that sounds brilliant. I do recommend it. And I think if you have young teenagers in your life, take them to to see it because if they're not interested in theatre or think they're not give them this if you haven't seen rocks i think rocks is one of those movies that suffered so much

from coming out during the pandemic because it was in that time where you could just about go and see something in a cinema but you had to be um you know know there were only kind of you could only have one person on every four seats in the cinema and I think it would have been a huge hit if they'd been able to show it in normal times it's a really good film. It's very touching and it's probably the best film I've seen about

young friendship ever actually. And it doesn't spare the punches I think it's not soppy or soft. No, it's fantastically realistic and the acting's superb. So, you know, grab it when you can. Obviously, it's streaming now, but it's well worth seeing. I just wanted to mention this, and I'm not joking about this.

This isn't a funny thing, really, but it's an illustration of how... Fee and I do sometimes talk about how the world of broadcasting has changed during the time that we've been in it. And we occasionally try to make, because we don't want to go on about it, but it is relatively unusual still for two women to be doing a radio programme together. It's unheard of. It is unheard of, yes. And a story reaches our ears today via the good old BBC about a male radio presenter. And this is just a story from a bygone age,

concerning a broadcaster from a bygone age. Pat Sharp has left his Greatest Hits radio show after reportedly making an inappropriate comment to a woman at an event. The 61-year-old presenter was comparing an industry awards ceremony when, according to Deadline, he made a comment about a woman's breasts. Sharp said he was truly sorry, adding he'd apologised to the woman directly. A spokesman for Greatest Hits Radio said the DJ would leave the station with immediate effect.

There we go. It's pathetic, isn't it? It's 2023. Can you remember what Pat Shar's kind of catch phrase was? Well, there's no need to remember it now. No? We've cast it to... Let's try and forget, eh? Audio broadcasting history.

But he did have a very, very odd hairstyle. And he was one of those people as well who just... Do you remember when he was in kind of kids' TV and he just always had to arrive on a bike? That's how I remember Pat Sharp. There's something sort of hyperactive about all the kids TV programmes, jiggle and jostle around.

Enjoy their retirement. Right, this is a criticism from Hannah who says, Dear Jane and Fee, I was so happy to find your podcast. It's great to hear you again. But on listening to your comments about Paula Yates, I was struck by how i had a perception of paula that wasn't correct an alcoholic druggie who abandoned her children i was shocked at myself it took me back to you earlier in the day when i watched the pamela

anderson documentary on netflix and realized my perception of her was very wrong too it did make me angry for both women oh i see so it's not a criticism of us it's saying that we had pointed out something and corrected we pointed out i was saying that i also had a the same view as hannah practically appalliates so it's interesting yeah i never had that though no i was always sympathetic towards her do you know i just felt that she the the the drug hell that she descended into and that was what killed her, was an overdose, wasn't it? Well, it was, but interestingly, I don't think she'd taken drugs for the preceding couple of years.

Oh, gosh. So it was really... So she was actually killed by an amount of drugs that quite possibly wouldn't have killed somebody who was a more frequent user. Yeah. So it was an absolute tragedy absolute tragedy obviously for everybody concerned. Anyway, this is because, in case anybody's

wondering, there are some documentaries about Pauliates on Channel 4, I think next week. Yeah, which I'm really looking forward to watching. And it's good, isn't it, when you can have the reputation of someone rectified in your eyes with a little bit more understanding

because, as you said, she just was put through the mill in terms of the tabloids. So Hannah, you got that reputation from, you know, the way that people sold newspapers around her. And I don't think that was the case at all. So looking forward to seeing those. By the way, our email address is janeandfeeattimes.radio. Do use it. You can talk about absolutely anything you like,

and we do guarantee that we look at every single email that comes in. This one from Jane Wall is spectacular. Inside, including my recently installed little stove, outside and the view from it, it's her cabin. Have you seen these? Oh, that's a good one. So we were talking about lady spaces on the podcast yesterday because somebody had

very kindly sent us the inside of their lady shed and we were asking for more lady spaces. Very jealous of this as well. Look at that. Would you like to describe that in your very best radio training? I didn't get onto the course as I explained yesterday so I don't have good describing

skills. I think she shed is really don't have good describing skills. I think she shed is really great. I love that term. And it does look snowy out there in Suffolk, doesn't it? It's very, very cosy. How would you describe it? Is that oak wood lined? You'll watch better at this. You got on the course.

So I would describe that on the outside as looking like a very neat and tidy, you know, end of the garden shed but once inside it opens into a luxurious wood paneled cozy festival of hunker downydom hunky downydom is absolutely i want to be i want to round off my life sitting on a porch uh with probably no teeth realistically just chewing something something soft on a porch with probably no teeth realistically, just chewing something something soft on a porch like that and just gazing out at the horizon Just rock yourself away. With my great-grandchildren

clustered around me, not making any demands on me, but just looking up at me and going, I hope I don't live that long with her or if I do I hope I've got more teeth So much to look forward to Jane. For my great-grandchildren, yes. Yes, okay.

Do you want to get to the guest or do you want to do another email first? Oh, I want to... Kate, the podiatrist, has forgiven us after my... Oh, good. ...total apology. And so it's good to have you back with us, Kate. And we did have another interesting one on these lines.

Hang on a sec. Hang on, I've lost it. Shall I read this one from Joe Carter while you do some shuffling? Hi, Jane and Fee. I was catching up on the podcast earlier today and the chat about loneliness and throwing away the Mr Darcy checklist. And Fee mentioned about kindness being next to wisdom. This is slightly off topic, but my dad has Alzheimer's,

which is quite advanced now. And I regularly try to summon up memories of him before the Alzheimer's took hold, something which is becoming harder and harder. One of the pieces of advice he gave to me years ago which really stuck was that if someone one of your children a colleague friend etc had got themselves into a sticky situation then if you could you should try and give them an escape route a way to take responsibility without losing too much face. As often people backed into a corner only make worse decisions and make a bad situation even worse. I hold on to this as an example of his wisdom and kindness.

What's the point of being wise if you're not also kind? I think that is brilliant, Joe. And that is absolutely the correct example of kindness being next to wisdom. So to think through how you can let someone who's been a little bit of a shit get themselves out of that shitty hole and restore themselves in their eyes and in your eyes. That's just clever, isn't it? But it is also really kind and solves the situation so much more than just shouting at them. Yeah, but honestly,

resisting the temptation to shout, that takes strength, doesn't it? Well, it does. But by the time you get to that rocking position with just your gums on the porch, I think you will have mastered that. I wanted to say hello to Denise, who sent us an email about all sorts of things,

including the fact that me talking about a possible military career reminded her of when her daughter was 17. And just to get out of lessons, she would pretend she wanted to join the army and spend time with the army recruiter whenever they visited the school. But in fact, she had no interest at all in joining the army. And in the end, it all came back to bite her on the bottom when the recruiter called one evening to set up an appointment

to discuss our daughter's future. Rumble! But lastly, Denise got a laugh from a work paper done by her great-niece, who is eight. After learning about Martin Luther King and listening to his famous I Have a Dream speech, the children in her class were given a paper to colour and complete the sentence, I have a dream speech, the children in her class were given a paper to colour and complete the sentence, I have a dream too. Well, the idea was they'd say something about

philanthropy or world peace or activism, but it was lost on great niece Lucy, who wrote, I have a dream to ride on a unicorn one day. There we are. Perhaps not quite what teacher had intended, but nevertheless, that remains her dream. And perhaps, who knows, she will achieve it. Maybe. This is from N. I am an NHS occupational therapist. So imagine my delight at your discussion about a podiatrist who was talking about NHS podiatry shortages. Speaking as another little understood profession with the NHS, could you introduce a new slot? Jobs in hospitals, no one understands until you need one. We also have huge shortages,

and whilst we are 100% behind nursing and medical teams and the demands they're under, the thousands of occupational therapists in our hospitals and communities never get a mention, neither do speech and language therapists, dieticians, podiatrists, people working in the area of prosthetics. And orthotists.

Thank you. People working in the area of orthotics. And thank you for that. And I'm sorry that I balls that up towards the end there because this is important stuff. And actually, that is not a bad idea. Why don't we do a feature regularly on jobs that need filling roles that need filling jobs that need doing that is a very good idea yeah i also happen to know from work i did with the nhs

that there's a worldwide shortage of urologists so you know somebody somewhere needs to start doing those jobs why would there be a worldwide shortage of urologists? It's a question I did ask in a meeting once, and I can't remember the answer, I'm afraid, but it's a genuine thing. And obviously urologists are people who deal with... Can we just Google urologists? I tell you what, we've got the opening question to that slot, haven't we?

Now, urologists, of course, Kate, our producer, is going to tell us. They treat the what? A urologist treats problems of the female urinary system and the male genitourinary tract. Hang on. Problems of the female urinary system and... The male genitourinary tract. And the men's genitourinary tract.

Yeah, so your water works your plumbing and prostate in men obviously and um yes and i suppose it's not the most glamorous part of the medical world is it but goodness me it's important yeah that surprises me actually because i would have thought in terms of uh supply and demand there would be a very very high demand for urologists so you would choose it as a discipline if you were going through medicine because it would guarantee you a job further down the line interesting jane yes if anybody is listening uh who is someone is genitourinary tracts uh then we could do with a little bit of a pointer as to why that's an underpowered area of medicine and we're in danger

of becoming a little bit medical um no you can't do too much body stuff you can't actually i must actually consult you about my latest problem as well but we'll do that off air i don't why don't we do that on stage at the royal festival hall jane darling you can show me. Quick one from Alice, dear Jane and Sue. Right, I've got Fee's name wrong yesterday. I too generally share your slight uncertainty around the real value of International Women's Day, but I did want to share something that has boosted my optimism this particular year. Last night, MPs voted overwhelmingly

to make protests within 150 metres of abortion clinics against the law and a 14-year campaign ended in victory. Now, I happened to pass a Mary Stokes clinic overwhelmingly to make protests within 150 metres of abortion clinics against the law, and a 14-year campaign ended in victory. Now, I happened to pass a Mary Stokes clinic twice a day on my commute, and the regular presence of protesters outside its gate makes my blood boil every single time. Seeing the news this morning that the law will change genuinely made my International Women's Day and reminded me that progress is being made, albeit slowly, by the power of women working together. Thank you for that, Alice. I suppose I should say, you know, in the interest of absolute balance, that the person, at least the

most notable person who's been in the news around this subject, protesting outside an abortion clinic is a woman. So that view of abortion, which I mean, I happen to share Alice's view of abortion, is a woman. So that view of abortion, which I mean, I happen to share Alice's view of abortion, isn't shared by everybody, including some women. So it's, but it's, yeah, the idea that you would decide to spend your time.

A peaceful protest outside an abortion clinic is one thing. Shouting at women going in is quite another. Yeah, I agree. You never know the reasons why somebody's become pregnant. It's not your business to ask. I'm going to hang fire on Louise Seymour's email because it's just fantastic. It's to do with Richard III.

It is to do with the remains. She was there, Jane. She was there. Okay, we'll fit in. No, we're going to keep it until next week. But will you remember? Yes, it's going to be on the top of my pile. I've got a special little folder at home for these emails now.

Ooh. Hang on, did you get that from work? No. I actually got it from previous work. Ah. I know. Oh, well. Ah.

I was at a BBC leaving do last week, and I've still got connections there, you know. You thought that the big media scandal was Gary Lineker's tweet? No, but it's you. I think you'll find it's my stolen stationery. Using stationery from another employer. Right, our big guest today was a journalist called James B. Stewart. He is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist.

He is the co-author of a book called Unscripted with Rachel Abrams. Now, this is about, well, it's about the glitz and the glamour and the tawdry and the appalling and the shady business deals behind the glimmering, glittering curtain of show business in America, in Hollywood specifically, and at the heart of Unscripted, which some people have compared to Succession, indeed it's being plugged as the real Succession story, is a guy called Sumner Redstone. Now you might think, never heard of him in a million years, but I'm telling you, you will have been, well, privy to some of his work and probably actually helped to put some dollars at least in his considerable family fortune.

He was the son of a lino salesman and he's the founder of Paramount Global. And in 2020, he died at the age of 97. So Unscripted takes us into his life and tells us about the people he mingled with, the horrific things he did to women, with women. And in the end, he ended to women, with women. And in the end, he ended up being treated very badly by some younger women who he had tried to... Anyway, you'll have to really hear the interview and possibly read the book.

People are about to. It's absolutely fascinating story and does suggest, I have to say, and it'll surprise V this, that power and money corrupt. So James B Stewart was our guest today. And we began by asking him to tell us the names of all the companies that Sumner Redstone, when in his pomp, was in control of. He controlled a huge number of household brands, starting with the Paramount Movie Studio, the CBS Broadcast Network, which under his ownership became the top rated network in the United States.

All the cable channels owned by Viacom, which included MTV, Nickelodeon, Comedy Central and a slew of others. At his peak, he was arguably the most powerful man in the world of media and entertainment and certainly one of the richest, with a fortune estimated at close to $15 billion. And he started out with two drive-in movie theaters in the suburbs of Boston, and through sheer willpower and determination and intelligence and ruthlessness, built that into a multi-billion dollar empire. Okay. It's going to be a long and complicated tale, obviously, but how did he achieve such success in that field? Well, he was ruthless. He was extremely competitive, even with his own family members. I heard you mention, you know, this has been compared to the TV show Succession. And

in some ways, it's even stranger than Succession. But it is at heart a family story. But he was, he had tremendous determination. One of the formative experiences in his life, he was staying in a hotel in Boston when a fire broke out on his floor and he had to escape out the window. And he hung from the window ledge first by two hands. And then when the heat became intense, one hand, his hand was burned. He was ultimately rescued. He hung on and that convinced him that he would always succeed. And by the way, it was invincible.

He went around saying he was going to live forever. I can't really believe that, but he did live a long time. And a little known fact, not known at all at the time, is he had a mistress in the room with him. She escaped out the window before him. And that was like a prelude to a long life of incredible infidelity, which, as you see in the story, lapped over into his business dealings. Well, it certainly did. We also just need to acknowledge he was a very bright man. I think he'd gone to Harvard. He also had a distinguished war record as well, didn't he?

The Second World War. Yes. He went to a very competitive and exclusive public school in Boston. He earned a scholarship to Harvard. He graduated in record time. He learned Japanese, which I wouldn't even begin trying that. He learned Japanese. He was fluent. He cracked the Japanese codes during World War II and made a, you know, tremendous contribution to the war effort. But he, in doing all of that, it was, you know, he never really

dated. He didn't have, he was so obsessed with getting ahead that I don't think he had a normal adolescence. And he decided, I guess, to make up for that, make up for lost time. He came to Hollywood at age 76. He moved to a mansion in an exclusive part of Beverly Hills. He was already a billionaire, a media mogul, and he started making up for lost time. Well, that's a very delicate way of putting it, James, and I'm grateful to you for that.

Our very nervy listeners in the United Kingdom need to be led gently through what happened next. I mean, he ended up essentially, well, at one point, he was attempting to share girlfriends with his grandson. I mean, there was so much in this book that shocked me, but that was probably the most tawdry aspect of everything. Well, yeah, you're right. You know, one of the interesting things is ultimately, I think this is a family drama, and he was so competitive that he ended up competing with his own daughter.

He drove his son into exile, who wanted to have nothing to do with him. And he even competed, as you say, with his grandson for women. And his grandson, of course, obviously many years younger, would go out with, you know, beautiful, glamorous, whatever.

And the next thing, his grandfather would be putting the moves on these women. And the grandfather had the advantage of billions of dollars to shower on them. So you wonder, why would these women decide to date the grandfather in his 90s? Well, the answer is money. And he was showering millions of dollars on a succession of women, two of whom eventually moved in with him. And slowly but surely, as he aged and his physical and mental state deteriorated, began to isolate him from his family, cut him off, get themselves into his estate planning, get control of his trust.

They came very, very close to gaining control of the whole media empire when his daughter couldn't take it anymore and finally, reluctantly, was drawn into the fray. And that's how the story here, the drama, really starts unfolding. Yes, I mean, it is quite remarkable. We should say that his really bizarre behaviour, particularly around women, was enabled by a lot of people, including some members of his own family. He would occasionally be challenged, though not all that often. No, he was rarely, rarely challenged. I mean, again, these things don't happen in a vacuum. And by the way, the culture of these major enterprises, I mean, remember, this is a multi, these are, he had two publicly traded multi-billion dollar companies with thousands of employees and shareholders. And everyone around knew him. There was one scene that Paramount is celebrating its 100th anniversary and he

comes onto the lot and there's this glamorous young woman with him wearing acrylic stiletto heels and a very revealing dress. Somebody who was president turned to another executive at the company and said, who's that with Somnia Redstone? And with a straight face, he said, that's his home health care aide. They all knew what was going on. I mean, they were having board meetings in the mansion hosted by the two women living with him. No one ever really challenged him. He boasted that the directors of these publicly traded companies had never defied him on anything he wanted to do. And by the way, if they did, he just replaced them.

So, James, as a writer, what's the lesson to be learned from his life? You know, where's the thing that you find so intriguing you want to pass on to the reader? Well, if anyone needs further proof that great wealth, not to mention the power that goes with it, does not buy happiness or peace of mind, this tale will reinforce that idea. Now, I realize that's not a new idea. And I wouldn't go so far to say that money is meaningless, and maybe it can enhance the quality of life. But if you think that that and the single-minded pursuit of it is going to bring you satisfaction, this does not happen in this story. And one of the interesting things about Sumner is he was self-aware. He told some of his

girlfriends that the reason he kept saying he was never going to die is that he feared the final reckoning. He said to one of them, I'm going to hell anyway, so I might as well do whatever I want. But you see in this story that the reckonings in life do not require death and a meeting with our maker, whoever that might be. His reckoning came while he was still alive. And the sorry state of affairs in his final years, again, it's shocking to me that a billionaire

you would think would have the best lawyers, the best medical care, the best nurses, the best staff, in fact, was living in his own hell in the final years where he's crying all the time, he's isolated from his family, he's cut off, he can't speak. It's a very sad tale in that sense. But I think it's an important one for anyone who wants to get some insight into what really counts in life. You're listening to Off Air with Jane and Fi and we are talking to the journalist James B Stewart. Now we asked him about the group Sumner Redstone did try to champion. They were called the Electric Barbarellas. Well here's an example of no one standing up to him because he was infatuated with the lead singer

of this group called The Electric Barbarellas. So he insisted that they be placed on, they get their own reality TV show on MTV, which they did. And even though the executives of MTV were all appalled and horrified, and when that predictably failed the electric Barbarellas came back in a new variation called the electric

that's spelled a l e t r i x which is basically the same show in the same group but with a different name and then that failed and then he also insisted that um they perform on the cbs television network which the executives managed to put them on the latest possible show in the last act at about 12 30 a.m but anyway you can you can see the electric barbarellas on youtube if you want to see firsthand just how like off key and how absurd this whole idea was. But this is an example where his infatuation spilled over into the company and he knew no boundary. I just wanted to ask you, to those people wondering, actually, what does any of this have to do with us, this tawdry and shocking behaviour in the higher reaches of the entertainment industry? So what?

What is your response to that? Well, I think anyone can relate, first of all, to the family drama here that the daughter who has to come back in and wrest control of the empire from first these women and then the men who are trying to seize power. And I think it's an incredibly moving story of her quest for her father's approval and love. And, you know, as a child myself, I can relate to that. And it's a very interesting story of a father and a daughter, which I think hasn't been explored so much in nonfiction. I think we all yearn, you know, for our whole lives of the love and approval that we sometimes still we didn't get. So there's that. And then secondly, I think anyone, especially women who are in the workplace in any environment, we got an incredible trove of emails and texts that show what these powerful men were really thinking and saying. And it's it's horrible. It's so much worse than I would have guessed.

And somebody said no CEO will ever write a text again after reading this book because we got the actual passages. And the level of sexism in the workplace, I'm sorry to say, is much more pervasive than I feared. And that battle is not over. That's a really interesting point. And of course, these white men, and it is actually overwhelmingly white men, hugely wealthy, are giving us the entertainment we devour. I mean, if you've watched Friends, you're a part of this, aren't you? Yes, absolutely. It completely spills over into the programming and their sense of what people both want to see and should see.

And, you know, the treatment, there's a scene where one of the directors takes Sherry Redstone and grabs her by the chin and lectures her, and when she later says that was completely inappropriate behavior, he said, well, I didn't treat you any differently than I treat my own daughter. But I'm not your daughter. I'm the vice chairman of these publicly traded companies. And I think, you know, you see this paternalism. And, you know, these are men who, if you ask them, oh, no, no, I'm not a sexist.

I'm not misogynistic. But then their behavior completely belies, you know, the platitudes that they spout. So I think, you know, that's something that, you know, everyone in the workplace needs to be aware of and it's very revealing in the story. Well, it's a prize-winning author, James B. Stewart, and that book, Unscripted, about Paramount Global

and all the other shady goings- on in Hollywood, is out now. Now, we do love hearing from you, so please do feel free to email us. It's janeandfee at times.radio. And do make the most of the theme tune, because we've already had one production meeting where we've been played some samples of alternatives. We're just going to take it down tempo, aren't we? We're going acoustic. We're going a to take it down tempo, aren't we? We're going acoustic.

We're going a little more, I don't know, late night jazz. Yes, well, are we late night jazz? A little bit more strings, guitars, definitely. Do you know what? We would not be able to enter our next theme tune in the Eurovision Song Contest and hope to even come on the first board. I'd like to hear a little bit of the lute.

You know, like a medieval lady. No, we're not going to hear anything featuring a lute. We are not. Well, I want to sort of get the vibe going of a kind of medieval banqueting hall. No, I don't want that. No, Kate, I don't want that. Don't let that happen.

No. I'll tell you what we don't want. We don't want a lute. We don't want a madrigal. We don't want that. No, Kate, I don't want that. Don't let that happen. No. I'll tell you what we don't want. We don't want a lute. We don't want a madrigal. We don't want a bassoon. And I don't think we really want... The oboe. You and your bloody oboe.

That's absolutely done it. Bye. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy.

Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.