Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A cure for the 20 year flaky foot (with Amanda Wakeley)

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

Rejoice! Fi's flaky foot is no more. Stay tuned to find out what finally fixed the mystery ailment. Jane and Fi also also ponder authentic greek yoghurt, what makes a good chicken schnitzel, and what they'll be eating while watching the England men's semi final...is it obvious we recorded just before lunch? Plus, they're joined by fashion designer Amanda Wakeley OBE to talk about her book 'Style DNA'You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/Our book club pick is a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Offair with Jane and Fee on a day of Great Portent. I've got a World Cup tingleffee. Have you? Where do I go to for help? I don't know. So we've got the England-Argentina game coming our way. How could you say it so lightly? And what are you eating?

Where will you be? Well, I'll be around at my friend's house. And I'm going to take a, I was going to say, a rather cheap bottle of Kremlin. because I don't want to go too far just in case we're in buckets at the end and I will have eaten a considerable carboload of pasta with homemade rocket pesto before I can out.

Lovely, that's so civilised. What are you eating? So I think we're going to be having button milk chicken with a couple of fresh lettuce leaves shoved into a bryosh bun just because I don't know why I looked in the fridge this morning and I can just about manage that and it will be very much a family affair as well.

I think we're going out Oh no Well we're both going out Oh no I'm going out You're staying in I do you know what Is can I just ask you this Why is there a little bit of me

That hopes we are I think it's because And I understand that feeling It's because I can't bear the idea Of them not winning the final It's the truth That would be too much That really would be too much

And do you know what was interesting I was watching the France Spain game last night Or some of it Oh my gosh what happened The French didn't have appear to care, did they? They were flabby from the outset. Yeah, it was extraordinary.

And I will say that, I don't think this current iteration of the England team will play like that. They'll certainly have a go. Well, we've gone in a different direction, haven't we? Because actually, we were pretty rubbish in our opening games and a little bit leaden. And actually, we've picked up the pace quite a lot. And I think France has almost done exactly the opposite. It was glorious from the beginning.

But yes, last night, it was almost as if they'd all been out too late or they'd all had a row. It was weird, wasn't it? And that's not to take anything away from Spain because they, I think they were quite bullish. Well, they've just been very good. They've just been a bit sneaky in Spanish. Just quietly getting on with it.

Oh, that's typical of foreigners. Absolutely typical. Anyway, hopes and dreams, I tell you what, just one little bug bear of mind. I will object when I hear people say, It's the first time England have got to the World Cup final since 1966. It's not women. It isn't the first time.

Stop saying that. Yeah, no, don't mind, darling. Take a deep breath. Take a very deep breath. I know that England women lost in the World Cup final, but they made it. They got there and it wasn't that long ago. So can we stop saying that, please?

Yeah. Do you know what? The other interesting thing was that last night after the Spain, France result, quite a few people were pinging on WhatsApp that I'm in saying exactly the same thing about how France would just go off now. Back in France, Paris would just go off because there have been so many riots so far

after successful triumphant matches at the World Cup. And it does make you think actually the British fan is the English fan. I'm so sorry, the English fan has got better. And France, last night, as far as I know, there wasn't as much trouble as there had been before. I know, but there shouldn't be any trouble at all. And also it's weird when you have trouble when he win. It's just bonkers.

But everybody was just going, oh my God, you know, Paris will be on fire tonight. The expectation is that after a France game, shit goes down. Yeah, and we just have to accept it, and we should never get to the stage of accepting any kind of street trouble or violence. By the way... Can you say street trouble again? That was lovely. Street trouble.

Street trouble. We've had trouble. And our street, as regular listeners, well, no. Anyway, I do... Well, they don't know the half of it. No, actually, they don't. We mustn't talk about him. He's been evicted. It took nine years.

It did actually. I tell you what, if you get Jade in a quiet moment to an airport lounge or on a train, just ask her about our streets. It's mind-boggling. Nine years. And the involvement of the council, the MP. And a very active and assertive

street group on WhatsApp. Anyway, he's no longer with us, and thank God for that. I actually think there has been trouble in the States involving England fans but it's been underreported because we're winning that is the God's honest truth and that... Is it?

Yes, I mean I actually do think there has been a bit of an issue and I'm sorry to say it but Argentina is a potential flashpoint I really hope that nothing does go rogue tonight So score predictions Sorry I'm so... My tingle's so bad I don't want to go

there? Mystic Garver's left for a summer holiday that will probably be permanent. So I just don't. I just hope, do you know what I really do hope, and I hope it very fervently, is that no player gets into a bit of penalty bother and is derided for that. So let's just hope that doesn't happen. And you know that these days you can get very effective things for your tingles. Well, I hear about it, but I can never seem to find it at the chemist. The lake in Austria has cured my flaky foot. That's it, yes.

That's been a long-term condition. You've been very plucky about. I've had a flaky foot. He won, only one, since I have my daughter. She's 18 now. And nothing, nothing has cured it. And I've tried absolutely everything. It's not been an invasive thing, but it's just not being very nice.

And also it's just very weird. Why one and not the other? Well, it's extraordinary, is it you're right or your left? Okay. And it just cleared up after a week swimming in the lake. Right. Okay. You might want to write a book about that,

Flaky Foot Syndrome and how you eventually overcame it. Well, you could do the introduction, talk about your tingles. Oh, what's happened? I don't know. But you've got a lovely email about Austria. Well, a very nice email about Austria. This one comes from Chris, who says I was delighted to a few's conversation about the Wurthor Sea. My mother was Austrian.

I have a large family who live in that beautiful area. I visit at least twice a year, often at Easter, where all the old country traditions are still practised and in the autumn to enjoy the spectacular autumn colours. But this year it is a summer holiday with two daughters, sons-in-law and five young grandchildren, and we will be spending many hours in the clear waters of the Wurthi. And Jane, there is a million miles difference between a finders, breaded chicken and a delicious Austrian schnitzel. But is there? Yes, there is.

There just is. Okay, next time I find dine, I'm going to order a chicken schnitzel to find out exactly what the big foss is. Well, you should. The place that we go to for our Christmas dinners does a very nice schnitzel. Oh, yes. And Rosie, our executive producers,

executive. Fiance's restaurant. There are two of them now in London, even though they are Italian, their schnitzels are to die for. And how does he do his schnitzel? What are I called? Cotoletta.

Cotoletta. Go for it. Cotilletta. Yes. And, yeah, it's just like breaded chicken. Well, that's exactly my point, Rosie. It's not really on mic there. It's breaded chicken.

Yeah, but it's delicious. It's different. It's nice. Yeah, it's really lovely. It involves, you know what it involves, a lot of butter. There you go. You won't get that with Finder's. No. And we did have some

cheap schnitzels last week and the difference between a cheap schnitzel and a decent schnitzel is quite high as well. I just think if all of the ingredients are lovely, for me it's a pretty perfect meal. It's got crunch, it's got salt,

it's got a little bit of protein. You never think you're going to finish a schnitzel because they're usually the size of your head. But you always do. You can pop it in a sandwich the day off. That's so true. If there is some left. Are they chicken shaped?

No. It's not a comedy food item. But also Austrian schnitzel is usually veal. I think I'm right and saying. And the chicken schnitzel is a kind of variation. Right. But also you can get these days, wherever you can get a chicken or veal schnitzel,

you'll be offered some kind of sweet potato or jackfruit or vegan alternative, Kevin's above. I was reading an article about healthy breakfasts, I think it was yesterday or the day before, and it said, a great way to start the day is Greek yogurt. Well, two of my late-life discoveries

have been spicy margaritas and Greek yogurt, and I think I might like to end my days. Have you ever had them together? Well, I will be doing in my 10th decade if I've got anything to do with it, and if I'm spared. But it said this article, this chap, it was emphasising the importance of Greek yogurt

and how wonderful it was for you and you should start every day with 150 grams of Greek yogurt I thought well that sounds a lot so this morning I got my tub of Greek yogurt out to the fridge I thought just out of interest I'll weigh you know I'll find out how much 100 it's hardly anything it's like a dollop and a half and I've been throwing it into the bowl

adding granola my cacao nibs still don't know what they are and then peaches I have well, peach slice, a bit of honey, and I'm set up for the day. Sometimes I have two bowls. So I'm really set up for the day. So I was surprised by how little of the Greek yogurt was actually required to make you a physiological powerhouse. So I'm going to try and stick to that limit of 150. And what, are you allowed to call Greek yogurt, Greek yogurt if you make it in,

let's say, Somerset? No, because they have to call it Greek-style yogurt. Oh, okay. Yeah, but Greek- area of that. Right, but presumably Greek-style yoghurt is exactly the same as Greek yogurt. It's just you're not allowed to call it Greek yogurt. Well, it's got nothing to do with Greece. No, but it would have the same benefits in your biome. Well, it didn't say that in the article. Okay. Judith, who regularly corresponds from the Lake District. But one of those things that, so sorry, just to go back to this, just be clear, Jane, let's be clear. So if you go down the supermarket aisle and you get to yoghirts, you're saying that there is genuinely a difference in the ingredients in Greek-style yogurt and Greek yogurt? Well, I don't know because a bit like

our colleague Rosie trying to discuss the chicken snitzel available in her partner's restaurants. I'm not an expert on Greek yogurt, but I do think there's a reason why all the experts recommend Greek yogurt and not Greek-style yogurt. Perhaps an expert will contact the program and tell us, God, we've been waiting decades for an expert to contact us. Briefly, I want to mention Judith, who says she does buy chicory at least once a month. I was just baffled by this. It's delicious in salads or braised. It's slightly bitter, but very versatile. We spend quite a lot of time in France, and yes, it is always available there. I mean, I just find that slightly bizarre. My go-to regular grocery is booths. Well, we hear a lot about booths. It is the waitros of the North, isn't it?

It is. And still has proper people serving I know. Proper conveyor belts. And there's a lot to be said for that. Kate's is just angry about something. And I like people who are just, you know, they've just got it something that just they can't put up with it anymore. Longtime listener from East West, Buckinghamshire,

I did email in the past about losing my skirt in the House of Commons. Can we all agree that saying co-award when referring to a top and bottom of clothing that match is beyond annoying? Zip it, influencers. Stop it. It's wanky. Right. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the co-ward anyway.

I just always think whatever variety it is, you just look like you're in your PJs. Good time to reference our guest today. Who is it? It's Amanda Wakely. Designer, fashion designer, style guru. And an interesting woman, she's going to tell us all about how we can,

well, establish a capsule wardrobe. Oh gosh. No, this is important. And venture forward. and also buy properly. Now, I had a funny arrival today in the post of, actually it was yesterday, of a purchase that I must have seen online

somewhere of a dress that looked like it would be all right. It was quite moderately priced. I should have known better. The material thing. I don't know what it's made of. I put it on and my daughter went, and then she felt it and it was just, oh God, you've got to be wary, haven't you?

You have to be very wary. It did look all right in the picture. I know exactly what you mean. And I did a very similar thing with the summer dress that when it arrived, because I was looking for something that had a bit of shape to it. So, you know, a kind of slightly... Come in, Amanda, you've got your work cut out.

I gathered waist and then a nice kind of a line skirt to it. And of course, they can make any dress appear like that in the photograph. So when it arrived, no joke. It was made from the same fabric as incredibly cheap tents. No, well, it was. Because yours's the same. Yeah. I think I could safely spend the night in the countryside under this dress.

Yes. It's so weird, isn't it? And I did think, you've just got a job lot of tenting material, very, very flimsy tenting material. That hasn't really passed the tenting test, and you decided to make dresses out of it. But also you just knew that it was going to create the most unholy static cling if you walked anywhere at speed. Oh, God, I'll be setting off alarms all over East-West Kentington

if I'll wear this thing in public. You need to taking up, but you did say yesterday that... I can do your hemming for you. Well, I'll bring it in. Okay. I really do like a little bit of hemming, actually, of an evening whilst watching something completely daft. I did find on Sunday evening that I just couldn't find anything to watch. I wanted something that was suitably end of the weekend type stuff.

And I came across Razor Ruddox. We're back with Big Dunk. Yeah. Celebrity escape to the country. Oh my God. Just if you've got half an hour of your life that you don't mind never getting back, then indulge in that. It's on the eye player. Oh, it's just quite, it is quite something, Jane. Quite something. I mean, if a new neighbour moved in and said, hello, I'm razor rotter.

I'd certainly reactivate our street WhatsApp group, that's for sure. Have you seen, I don't know why, I think I might watch more of it, I'm not sure, the dark on ITVX. Oh gosh, no, I'd never go for something with that kind of title game. It is so unremittingly bleak. God, it's bleak. It's set in Scotland, I mean the countryside's lovely,

but it's quite bleak, and there's dead bodies everywhere, and the detective, it goes, she's beyond taciturn. It's just, oh, dearie me. Is that the one where the couple have moved from London and we don't quite know why, and they've pitched up in the Scottish Highlands.

No. Okay. Well, that's the same kind of thing. What else. Right. Well, that's two fantastic non-recommendations from us. There's absolutely nothing on television at the moment because of the World Cup and the sport

and the fact that it's summer. And all of the streaming channels are doing that naughty thing where they say new series. What they mean is new to them. And quite often it does take me about 20 minutes to remember whether or not I've watched some. before and I've been diddled twice on that front. I sat through 20 minutes of Scrublands thinking

because Scrublands was amazing. It's based on the... Chris Hammer Book. Yes, thank you. And I thought, oh, this is absolutely dreamy. This is before I had to turn to Neil Razor Rudder for my company. And yeah, it's not a new series. No, I'm increasingly thinking I might have to turn to Little House on the Prairie. No, I don't ever do that. Well, I don't know, because I love the original.

Did you? And the guy who played the dad was my, I think, one of my first crushes along with David Sol. And Prince Andrew. Yeah, we try not to talk about that. No, no. I think I was wrong about him, obviously, but I think I actually probably a bit wrong about David Sol. I think you were a bit wrong about David Sol. But the guy from Little House on the Perry.

Are we sure? Well, he's not with us anymore. Rosie's going to do some checking. Oh, dear. I hated Little House on the Pro. My mum really, really loved the books. And so we were allowed to watch the TV. the series. Do you what, I just remember

thinking it was so, it was quite dark, wasn't it? It had some themes in it that were. Yes. I mean, there was, I liked it in many well, partly because I love the guy who played Charles Ingalls. Michael Landon, I think his name was. And Parr was always getting his fiddle out

at times of crisis. And people would have a little dance. And there was the Olson, the spoiled brat girl called Olson from the shop. Do you remember? And there he is. Michael Landon. He was a beautiful man, actually. Lovely to... I think it was all

of the dungarees. I just didn't like the fashion in it. He didn't wear dungarees. He wore tweedy trousers with a pinkish shirt and braces. There we are. Okay, did you find some dungarees and little house on the prairie, please do back more. They had neighbours. They had neighbours. Oh, okay. So I used to really like that.

There's usually something personal that's pulled you in. I'd never heard the name on telly before, so I was excited. Okay. I just don't remember it being a particularly kind of engaging or youthful. Yeah, Rosie's just mouthed the word boring at me. Oh, shit.

And that's what I was searching for. She'd rather talk about breaded chicken. Can we just say that I wasn't wrong in the end of the feast as we know it? Because Nell has said, after 40 plus years enjoying feasts, imagine my horror at biting into the first of a new box and finding them changed beyond all recognition. walls have created this awful sickly replacement and are selling them as feasts

but the hive always turns up positivity after signing the petition to ask for the restoring of the original I read with interest that Aldi sell a very similar feast it's called Fiesta we see what you've done there and the lovely lady at Aldi told me that they've had to stock up because the fiestas have become so popular so there we go let's just all buy the fiesta

There was no need to change the feast. Why do they change anything? I don't know how to change. But it's just very annoying. And sometimes you think we're falling for it because then it generates publicity and then they re-release the old ones. I hope it's not that.

No, I really hope not. A quick shout out to Lorna, who is recovering from brain surgery. She had it last Monday. She's been discharged from the excellent, I believe it's excellent, the Walton Centre in Liverpool. And it's been a difficult week, though,

she says, of sickness, pain and despair. old Lorna. I was still very poorly, but I definitely feel brighter this week. I can't begin to tell you how much it cheered me to listen to you both last night. Reunited after your holidays, especially as I never normally miss an episode, but now I am a couple of weeks behind. Well, look, we're sending lots of love to you and I hope you continue your recovery, Lorna. But it's a really tough one, Matt. So let's just hope you can relax and, I don't know, just rejuvenate yourself in a gentle kind of way. And do you know what, actually, a friend of mine last year, and she won't mind me telling this story, had to have brain surgery. She had a brain tumour. Just a horrible, horrible, horrible thing to happen to her. And actually, she said something so wise about the recovery of it,

that actually in our society, we always want to wish people a speedy recovery. But with something like a brain injury, what we should be wishing people is the opportunity to take as much time as it takes for them to recover You know, this notion that, oh, you must get better really quickly, really quickly, and then you get back and you get back and you get back. You know, quite often with a brain injury, getting back is actually not possible either. You'll go back to a changed place.

But I thought, gosh, what a fantastic thing to point out to people. I'd never thought of that before. And I think it's quite a valuable thing to hang on to in your head. Yeah, well, it should really be get well in your own time. Yes, take as long as you need. Get well soon. Yeah, not, you know, get back to this. get back to this. I mean, that can't be helpful at all.

So yeah, we send you lots and lots of love. Rabbits. Leo says my grandmother, Celia, was evacuated to the country during the war with my father and uncles. She bought a rabbit from a farmer and posted it to my great-aunt Lily, who screamed when she opened the package because of the eyes looking back at her. They never resolved this falling out and could never be invited to the same event. That's quite drastic, isn't it? Leo says there was probably a lot more to this story

but I'm both amused and saddened by it. Yes, there probably is more to it but, you know, nothing wrong with Baron a grudge, is there? I don't know, I will not go to that christening if she's going to be there because of that rabbit she sent me. Fair enough. Yesterday you introduced many of us to the Cliff Richard Classic. Hello's.

Goodbye Sam, hello Samantha. Hello, Samantha. Have you got the lyrics, with you. No. Oh damn, I haven't got my telephonic device. Press pause please Rosie or should I find it on? Yeah, you'll find it yet. We have found the words to Cliff Richards. I looked at our 1970 hit. I thought it was the 60s but no we'd entered

the 1970s and Cliff had a big hit with goodbye Sam Hello Samantha in which jaunty young man laments his lost male friendships because he's about to plunge into the world of womanhood. Goodbye, Sam. Hello, Samantha. Goodbye Sam, hello Samantha. Yes, we get the message. Sam, I'm leaving the gang, so don't come around for me on Sunday.

Joe, I want you to know I'll have to skip the game on Monday. Had a whole lot of fun, but now the time has come. I need the sweet touch of a woman's love. Goodbye, Sam. Hello, Samantha. Goodbye Joe. Hello, Joanne. There are some other nuggets here. Goodbye, Lou. Hello, Louise. This is great.

There's something about playing pool, not being able to play pool anymore. Terrible, terrible tragedy men have to live through, Jane. Guys, you ought to get wise. There's more to the world than pool and fishing. And I regret to say there's no G there. That's the late great Steve Wright would have said, no G. No G. There's more to the world than pool and fishing.

Easy riding is really. fine but look around see what you're missing Cliff you've really let yourself down here easy riding missing and then girls are waiting in line

you've seen Cliff Richard recently does he still do this at one of his gigs I don't think he's I don't think he does no but it's just a little it just reminds us of a different time

The songwriters here, people responsible, Jeffrey Stevens, Mitch Murray and Peter Callender. Right, Peter Callender rings a bell. Does he? Yeah, I might look him up. Actually, I'll get ready to look him up. I don't want too many elderly men on my search engine. Right, final one from me, Alison McLeod.

Greetings from Canterbury, long-time listener, first-time emailer in response to Eve's comment about nobody making pastry. What did Eve say? Oh, she's been so controversial. Yeah, she really has. I make pastry. It takes about 10 minutes and tastes amazing. We've been sold the lie by many of our food suppliers that speed is everything.

I would argue that we need to reclaim the mindfulness of preparing, cooking and eating rather than consuming the lie that quicker is better. By making your own pastry, you can make the amount you want, no additives, no packaging, just flour, fat, salt and water. I appreciate that cooking from scratch isn't for everyone and sometimes it's a luxury if you're short of time, but I'm sure I'm not alone. Let's not lose the art of simple cooking.

Couldn't agree with you more, Alison. And sometimes it is better than therapy. I agree. In the autumn, I'm sure I've said this before, nothing I love more than just batching up a big fat of soup, even if no one wants the resulting soup. It's just something, I don't know, there's just something earthy and satisfying about it.

And also, I find getting home of an evening and just doing some chopping and whatever. it is a lovely time to just... What do they say? Busy hands, calm head. Calm head, busy hands? You know, if you're doing something that you have to do hand-eye coordination with,

you can't be thinking and, you know, by our stage of life, catastrophizing about everything that's happened during the day. So I'm with you, Alison, completely. I think at the moment, it's a pretty difficult time in British politics, isn't it? And I think, you know, the death of Anne Whittakeron was just horrible. and I don't think it's helping with the old catastrophizing.

It's certainly not helping me, I have to say. So I hope everybody's got through the last couple of days, all right. Really wanted to mention this from Kate, who is in Suffolk. Now, she's 53 and says she spent the majority of her career working in an office travelling internationally and on board cruise ships. She had COVID years remote working, but then went back to the office. But then she was made redundant and says she was thrust back into the world of job hunting. But I did get a new role.

It was hybrid though, due to a massive pay cut. I couldn't afford to travel into the office in London more than one day a week. And I'm in Suffolk. So not only do I live alone, not married and no kids. I now work at home four days a week as well. It's been a massive shock as a people person who literally gets energy from being with other people. Some days the only people I might interact with are when I go to my wonderful gym, which has an amazing sense of community.

And I think sometimes we underestimate that point in the gym. I mean, I'm not a gym person, but I do gather there is a level of community, a lot of gyms, not every one of them. And people really enjoy it. It's been very detrimental, she says, to my sense of belonging. And I miss daily social and professional interaction. Some might find it attractive to be homeworking, but for some it's just isolating. To be home alone so much has been a huge challenge. Radio, podcasts and music keep me company.

Now, due to organisational changes, I have got a new role, and it's at Heathrow Airport. That is a massive change, as I will be on site three days a week. I literally cannot wait to be surrounded again by people and the buzz of a working environment. Kate, thank you for that. That's a slice of contemporary life. I'm very grateful to you, and I really do hope you enjoy being back in the buzz. I'd really miss it if I left it. I know I would. Totally, and it's all of those other things that aren't necessarily. necessarily to do with work.

I mean, it's about, it definitely is about the snacks that you can buy. You know, the fact that you can pop out for lunch, the fact that, you know, you just bump into people that you would never normally bump into. And you don't have to have deep meaningful conversations with them. You don't have to seek out company, do you? I think it's fair to say that Heathrow Airport will be lively. It's a very well-known airport.

So I've often wondered about the behind-the-searchs. scenes at places like that. So what, you know, is there a staff room on every floor in every terminal? Are you, are you fraternising with all of the stewardesses and stewards and pilots who come through? Is it actually quite kind of enclosed? I'm fee, fly me. What are we saying here? Anyway, let's talk fashion. You know that I gave up that logo years ago. But no, today's... I'm much more about green energy. You are an absolute wind farm. Right, let's bring in our guest today, fashion designer Amanda Wakely.

Amanda, welcome to the programme. Lovely to have you with us. A fashion designer, of course. You have dressed some of Britain's most famous women, royals, and global megastars like Beyoncé, Angelina Jolie. You've got a podcast series, Style DNA. It's been a big hit. And it is also the title of your first book.

Welcome. How are you? I'm well. Thank you for having me. Can you just tell us, first of all, what you are wearing today? What I am wearing, I am wearing vintage Amanda Wakely, my air shirt, which is a sort of signature style, which is in my current collection, which is available at John Lewis. Yes, get that in.

And I get that in. And some vintage Ralph Lauren's silk pants and some ancient Greek sandals on my feet. Ancient Greek, literally ancient Greek. No, they're called ancient Greek, is the name of the brand. Right. Yes, just get some air on my feet. my feet. Right, and the Greek thing, that's very much in vogue because of Odyssey, the film. So we're all

going a bit Greek over the next couple of weeks. Absolutely. And I've always loved sort of Grecian goddess dressing. When I had my brand, it was something that I just loved doing for evening wear. Right. Well, we'll talk a little bit about, because you had a tough time in COVID, didn't you? Your business had a tough time. You personally had a tough time. Exactly, yes. But you're very much back now, which is great. Has fashion always meant something to you? Tell you. us about your childhood, your adolescence and the people, not just the women in your life, and how they dressed, how did that impact you? Yeah. I think style more than fashion has always been important to me.

I mean, it started at a very young age. I was lucky enough to have a giant trunk on the landing at home, which my very glamorous grandmothers would put their cast-offs in. So it was full of everything from little silk slips to moth-eaten cashmirs to, to, you know, and, you know, you know, pieces of fabric that had been picked up around the world. So it was like my treasure chest. And you dip in and wear it? Absolutely. Dip in, wear it and customize it.

I mean, for as long as I can remember, I think it must have been about seven. I was on my mother's sewing machine. I mean, I could only just reach the pedal. Let's put it that way. And it was totally instinctive, innate. Right. And you've mentioned your grandmothers.

What about your mother? How did she dress? My mother dressed beautifully. She was a surgeon's wife, and I remember to this day, twice a year, we would all troop off into Yeager in Chester, the local town, with my mother, I'd go with my mother and father for them to select what she was going to buy that season. And it would probably only be a couple of outfits, but everything was beautifully chosen. Right.

And actually you write about this in the book, don't you? It's about what you buy. You shouldn't buy in quantity, but quality, if you can. Definitely. And I think, you know, we've changed eros, haven't we? You know, when my mother back in the 70s was buying very, very carefully, there was no sort of high street to speak of. Yes, there was probably CNA just coming in.

But there was no the Sheeans and the H&Ms and the Zaras of this world. None of that existed. So you bought less, you bought better, and you looked after it. Now, to people who say, oh, clothes, they don't matter. And some people do firmly believe that, don't they? They don't think it matters what they look like. What would you say to that? I think it matters what you feel like.

Right. And that's the most important thing to me. And I spent 30 years, my business and my career in design was all about making women feel the best version of themselves. And I think if you feel confident, then you are going to just deliver your best self in whatever you're doing, whether that's rocking up at the school gates,

which can be highly intimidating, apparently, all the way through to going into a board meeting or being on the radio or whatever it is. If you feel good and comfortable and like the best version of yourself in whatever you're wearing, you are going to deliver your best job. Right. And isn't it also about showing, I don't know, without being pompous, a degree of respect to the rest of the world?

I mean, they've got to look at you. We don't look at ourselves, do we? Totally. And, you know, I talk about this in the book. We message through our clothes. And we read people within, I think it's a tenth of a second as to what they're wearing and how they are presenting themselves. From their hair, their nails to everything. And it's a split second. And, you know, that's hardwired into us as human beings. And so, yes, it is important. It does sound vain, but it is important. Yeah, the other thing worth saying is that

British fashion, British design, it's a success story. We're good at this stuff. We are really, really good at this stuff. And, you know, I feel, I wish we had a country the size of America because, my goodness, you know, if you turbocharged our turnover in fashion by whatever eight for the,

to be the size of America. God, we would have huge, huge businesses. Do you get annoyed when you know that you've been copied by fast fashion? It's a tricky one. I mean, it's always a compliment, but it is annoying. But the nature of the beast with fashion is you move on. Yes, it annoyed me. Yes, it must really, really bug you.

And is there anything that you can do about? it? There are really, really tricky trademark laws. And, you know, and these big industry, you know, the Zaras and all the rest of it, they know that if they just change, I think it's four things, then they're fine. Yeah. And what sort of things? Oh, it can be really minor. Really, really minor. So, and, you know, and they know it's David and Goliath stuff. So what do you do? Do you just move on and, you know, get on with the next? design or do you take Goliath into the courts? And none of us could afford to do that, quite frankly. And how do we as customers know a bit more about what's behind the clothes that we

wear? Because it's very hard to get details of whose little fingers have made the beautiful creation that you've just bought for £27.99. That's an interesting one. And I talk a bit about this in my book. because I think we need to educate ourselves in terms of fabrics, in terms of costs, you know, and quality too. Look at something. Look at how something's made. You know, is it made well? Does the price seem fair for that? Look at the garment label. And if something is super cheap, the chances are someone wasn't being paid a living wage to make it. Sorry to say. No, it's quite painful, actually. you think about it.

Fee and I are not big women. I'm a statue-esque, five foot one and a half. And Fee is? I mean, on a good day, if I stand up straight, five foot two. Rubbish. I've got my platforms. It's backed up by two solid sources. Yeah, ketchup and HP.

One of our issues, Amanda, not with you personally, but with fashion generally, is that sometimes it's just really difficult. because you'll look at a dress that looks gorgeous on a 5-foot-10-inch 18-year-old Slovakian girl and it's not going to translate to the real world. What do you advise us on this? Well, I talk about working out who your style icons are

and that means just try and find a couple of people that really inspire you in how they look stylistically and that should be someone who's roughly your shape and proportions. Because there's no point you saying El McPherson's my style icon. Because she's a foot taller. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. You know, and so, and that could be really helpful and informative.

And it's never been easier to sort of build an inspiration album, you know, from screenshotting, you know, Instagram or whatever and just building these lovely albums of women that inspire you. And they might inspire you for. for your work dressing. And I think you can have different icons for different parts of your life. So whether that's work, it might be occasion,

whatever your life holds, it might be country weekends. And just try and find a couple of women that inspire you for those and follow their lead. Who do you look at and think, wow, that woman, and we'll talk about men in a moment, that woman looks astonishing. It's for different things, different women, but I look to someone like Catherine Hepburn, who is just timelessly, effortlessly chic.

I look to Carolyn Bassett Kennedy, who again, effortless, but cool and quirky. I mean, I think they both would just occasionally just wear a white shirt, but of course it's the white shirt, but it has got to be a good one. It has to be a good one, and there's nothing better in my book than a great white shirt. Right, okay. I can't actually... Oh, yes, your shirt is currently... beige, beige, okay. The white shirt is a part of any capsule wardrobe. I'm really interested in this phrase capsule wardrobe

and what I should have in it, what any woman should have in a so-called capsule wardrobe. Well, I don't think that's standard. I really don't believe. I hate rules in fashion. Absolutely hate them. I'm not going to dictate to you and say that you're an apple or a pair

or any other ugly label. Okay, so it's all about your life, your lifestyle, and what you need as your foundation wardrobe, really. What do you reach for on repeat and just making sure that you've got those pieces in your wardrobe? You know, when people talk about, oh, everybody needs a trench coat in their wardrobe, no, they don't.

You know, so it's rubbish. So, you know, if your life is in the country and you don't need a chic burberry mac, then you don't need it, you know, for your capsule wardrobe. So work out who you are. And that's why I go right back to your childhood to make you think about what you instinctively reached for as a child and write some words down.

And then I take you on this journey to work out your three-word style DNA. And then once you've worked that out, it is amazing how it helps you in your styling choices and in your styling mistakes too. Yes, mistakes, we've made a few. You don't like buttons, do you? No, I mean, there's a phobia about them, isn't you? Yeah, there is. I'm not that bad.

I mean, you know, if they're needed, they're needed, but it was always a joke in the design studio. It was like, okay, it's got to be a zip, or maybe we just don't even need a button. Right. I'm kind of with you. Do you like them? I'm not a huge fan of buttons. I think large buttons are one of the things that smaller women cannot wear. It makes us look like toddlers.

If we've got a coat with big buttons on, it just doesn't work at all. Interesting. It's so true. Dispense with the big buttons. Those give me the real ick. What do we do with our terrible, terrible fashion memories, Amanda? Because I think we're probably all of about the same age. And we've lived through some terrible decades.

I mean, you know, if you look back through the photo album, my teenagers spent in the late 1980s and actually some of the early 1990s there's nothing really pleasing to be found there's the PVC catsuit no we're not going there do you know what pleases me is that iPhones and camera phones

were not in existence that's so true thanks God the dodgy palms you know all those dodgy jumpsuits catsuits all the rest of it no pictures of them And do you think we're in a sartorially better place now? I think people are more conscious of how they're looking probably

because of the prevalence of taking pictures more. I do think that the high-wasted barrel-leg gene is an absolute gift to the slightly older woman. It's a very, very flattering denim. It is. I took a pair off before I came here. Yes, it is. And I think denim, you know, talking about age, I think denim and our shoes can really sort of take us to a place of being quite cool and quite current. And, you know, get your shoes and your jeans wrong.

It takes you the other way. Yeah. And we're lucky, aren't we, that we can still be wearing clothes like that in our late 50s, our 60s and even into our 70s. because I would have thought your mum, Jane, who I know, you describe as being very stylish, probably didn't think that that type of dressing was available to her. But she was a sort of northern working class lady, really, and style was very important to her.

Appearance is hugely important to people who started life without a great deal, isn't it? I mean, it's all very well for people perhaps didn't ever know, I'm not saying my mother grew up in grinding poverty, but she certainly had fewer options than I have have. but how you looked was very significant because as you said earlier people judge you immediately. It's pride. Yeah, pride. And actually I think it's self-care.

Yes, that's true. Yeah. Can I just ask about heels? Because you make quite a... I was quite convinced you were almost saying in the book and correct me if I'm wrong, that the high heel has left us. It's gone, or at least it's no longer a requirement. It's no longer a requirement. We put them on when we feel like it.

And I love that. I think that is so freeing. And so, yes, if I want to stride out in a really sexy pair of high heels, great. But I spend most of my days and evenings in flats. And it's a joint. Do you wear trainers? I do, absolutely. Okay, I've got permission to wear trainers now. Oh, God, yes.

You did obviously make some amazing stuff for the late Princess Diana, and one of the outfits that you made for her, designed for her, was the one that she wore on the day in the 90s when she effectively resigned from public life. How many conversations would you have with a client like that about outfits for occasions of that nature? Absolutely none, really. Yes.

I mean, you know, I had no idea she was going to wear that suit on that day to deliver that speech. What it looked like. So it was a forest green cavalry twill, wool twill suit. It was a double-breasted with little gold sort of horse. horn buttons. They weren't buttons. They were horns. A lovely dark green velvet revere and a little pencil skirt on those fabulous legs. Right. Yeah. Which I can't claim. No. Well, I certainly can't either. And that was that power dressing or defiance dressing?

What was that? I think that was just confidence dressing, which you could define as power dressing, yes. Yeah. Okay. And Andy Burnham is going to. to be our leader. We keep saying almost certainly, but let's just face it, he is going to be the prime minister this time next week. What do you think of what some people have described as dad core, which is what he wears, the t-shirt and the jacket and the jeans? You know, whatever makes him feel good,

but, you know, if he's going to be leading this country, which he is, he can't go and visit Macron and, you know, any of the other heads of state or Trump wearing a t-shirt. He just won't be taken seriously. But, you know, I did notice he's now in a suit and tie. Yeah, he's scrubbed up for London. Do you think that that will ever change? Because, I mean, some of the titans of industry in Silicon Valley

and, you know, the richest people in the world choose a completely different way of dressing and it is cocking a snook at the suit, isn't it? Totally, totally. I mean, you know, success, you know, with those guys has just meant that they can wear whatever they want to wear. And they always did. Yeah, do you think it will knock the suit out a bit?

I don't, actually, not in a hurry. And for women, too, I think there's nothing better than, for those tricky moments, putting on a really well-cut jacket, it just is empowering. Can we talk about what your COVID experience was like? Because for anyone running a business, it was tough. But you had other things going on as well, didn't you? Proper Anas Horribulus. Yeah, so I just got through from, um, uh,

doing my audio book over the last two days. And I must admit, and when I got to that bit in my book, I had a complete meltdown in the little. It was all back. Yes. And so yes, it was not the happiest of times. One of my brothers was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor and the private equity sort of majority shareholder of the business decided they no longer wanted to fund. And so the two came together. And it was a very tough May 2021. Yeah, it really was. And you had to dig pretty deep to get through all that, didn't you?

I did. And then I'm a big believer in silver linings in everything. And to me, there were so many silver linings. God, I would give anything to have my brother back. Don't get me wrong. But so many silver linings in terms of our family being so unbelievably close and tight to get through it and we still are, to going into a new chapter at a point in my life that, you know, most women are thinking about retirement or whatever. And I have never felt

as excited, as energized, as inspired as I have over the last few years. And it's just brilliant. And I just want to say to, I want to shout from the rooftops to women out there who may have even lost a job or just coming back into the workplace or whatever, do it in whatever way suits you that you want to do because it is so rewarding. And in the past, I think people would have thought, well, I can't afford anything that's in any way associated with Amanda Wakely. The truth is now, because of the collection you have at the aforementioned High Street shop, people can. People, it's not cheap, let's be honest. It's not cheap. Let's be honest. It's not cheap, but it's something that will last.

Yes, and it is a completely different price point to the original a few years ago. So, yes, I really do believe strongly in timeless style and buying pieces carefully that you know will be friends in your wardrobe for a very long time. You know, when you came in, Amanda, and we were talking about that kind of, you know, first couple of seconds when you meet people and you make up your mind about their style. I'm going to put you on the spot here. What do you think of us? We were getting on so well.

I think you look very comfortable in what you're wearing. Okay, all right. And I think that's all that matters. I think you look very elegant and fantastic in what you're wearing too. Oh, thank you. We've got comfort on our side. Well, I'll always have comfort on my side. I will always have comfort on my side.

On a rainy Sunday in November, tell me you're at home in a pair of really awful track suit bottoms and a scuzzy old jumper Amanda? I won't be because to me, to me it's self-care. So that would make me feel horrible. But I will reach for my father's old Kashmir cable knit that I had him made back in probably 1991. And when he died, that was one of the first things I chose to keep.

And so, yes, I'll pop that on. And how old is that? That's 30-something years. years old. Yeah, but it's special. It's really special and it's not, you know, that is past its best, but that is a garment that's imbued with memories. Yeah. Well, it's been lovely to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Amanda Wakely, the fashion designer, her book is called Style DNA, How to Dress with Confidence. And just a brief parish notice to those of you who are struggling to see the visualised version of Monday's edition of Offair, it is available now,

isn't it? Yes, it was a little slow to make its way to YouTube, but it's absolutely that it is redolent in all of its glory. Take it away. Just enjoy it. And we are going to do the Book Club book. Shall we say, at the end of the week after next, Jumper Lahiri's, the interpreter of maladies.

And our guest tomorrow is the novelist Claire Powell. And, well, what can I say? The tingle hasn't gone away. To listeners in Scotland, Well, just come on, just hop on board, just for once. Hop on board the England, but no, they're not going to. No, they're not going to. I think it's entirely fair that they don't.

No, so do I really. Yeah, support who you want. Go to Malvinas. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day. Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio.

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