Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A giant penis heading into space...

Episode Date: April 15, 2025

Yesterday was not a bad day! There was lots to laugh — postcards, space trips, and JD Vance with a trophy. Jane and Jane discuss all that and more. Plus, author and journalist Jon Stock joins to talk about his book 'The Sleep Room: A Very British Medical Scandal'. Send your suggestions for the next book club pick! If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I mean it was almost deliberately phallic. But it did talk. It was very simple. I'd say it was, I mean, what a time to be alive. I did think that actually. Then you've got to be bouncy for four hours. She's bouncy at all hours. You've joined us. It's Mulkerrins and Garvey here with another off air. Thank you for your emails and thanks for the postcards. We've got a... Eva's finally,

finally achieved our postcard wall. We'll be posting images of that. It's a thing of beauty, isn't it, Jay? It is so nice. It just cheers the whole place up. I know. But let's just cut to it. You might have to build another wall for all the postcards. Well, we might do. We'll get on to today's cluster of cards because there's a couple I really want to mention today and thank you, honestly. It really does cheer the place up. We're very grateful. What really cheered us all up yesterday was that trip into space.

Now I was live on the Times radio as it happened yesterday afternoon and there are various weaknesses in my broadcasting CV. No. No? No. There are. I won't hear of it. Well and one of the things I just have never been able to do is commentary. I mean it's a real skill that and I don't have it and though the BBC God Love Them did stick me I mean I had Princess Diana's funeral, the Queen Mother's funeral, Margaret Thatcher's funeral. I wasn't commentating. I wasn't commenting. Hosting around an event, I'm all right. Commentary, I'm in awe of those people who can do it. I think it's a tremendous skill. I don't have it. And yesterday...

We could start with some light horse racing and train you up. Horse racing is really hard. Tennis is impossible, I don't know how these people do it, football slightly easier, but still really difficult. And yesterday, I thought, well, my colleague Rosie, who is in charge of the radio show, said, you know, tell people about what's happening. Say what you see. Yeah, say what you see. What I saw was a giant penis going into space. And I thought, well, I can't say that but I notice in all the many feature articles about it today they say exactly that. Where were you?

It was so phallic, well downstairs on the 11th floor watching it on our editor's phone. Yeah it was almost deliberately phallic. It was very sad. I have to say it was, I mean it was almost deliberately phallic. But it did talk. It was very simple. I have to say it was, I mean what a time to be alive. I did think that actually. Pop stars and the fiancés of billionaires being blasted into space for 11 minutes. Katy Perry, I even printed out that picture of Katy Perry kissing the ground for you just to have a look at that.

What a historic moment. She's super connected to love. She's very connected to love and it's about making space for future women. The shrieking that you could hear was very unedifying I think. It was sort of like a hen do branch in space. But I will say Jeff Bezos falling over trying to get to the capsule of the moment of joy. Well there was also JD Vance dropping a trophy yesterday as well. So no, listen. It wasn't a bad day. I will say that I'm as bad as anyone else because I'm totally obsessed with their spacesuits. You know, you've seen the picture of me in my ski suit. And I now I would quite like one of those spacesuits to add to my collection of zip-up

neoprens. Right, okay. Would you use that costume in the Brighton area as you go about your business? I mean it has been used. Has it? Yeah. I mean it looks good on you. Just describe it for those who haven't had the fortune. It's a houndstooth check all in one ski suit. Yeah, I mean. It's nice in its sounds.

No, it looks great on you. I cannot emphasise that enough. I won't be getting one. I'd wear it all the time to work if I could. It's literally my favourite thing. I need to go for a bra measurement. I tried to book an appointment yesterday. I couldn't get anywhere. Right. Thank you for your postcards. The postal address. It's Times Radio. 1 London Bridge Street, London, SE 1, 9GF. Heed this advice ladies says the individual Anonymous who sent us this great postcard from the London Transport Museum which by the way is a great place to visit if you're looking for an Easter trip I would recommend that. Housewives please finish traveling by four o'clock and leave the buses trams and trains free for war workers. Well you can

understand I guess we are talking about the Second World War here. Yes, well, I've almost finished traveling by four o'clock, five o'clock. So I am, you know, making sure that priority people get priority. The men. Men, yeah, men. Men, you need to get home. And this is from Jules. Using this touch note, have you seen these touch note cards? I think they're really lovely. And obviously you can, they're

digital, I'm guessing, but they just look fabulous. Fee and Jane, one for the wall. My daughter's beautiful buddy dog, Goni, or Gony. She's a beautiful soul and a wonderful companion to my daughter. Didn't pass guide dog training. Like many other dogs who don't quite achieve the discipline required, where appropriate, guide dogs will put these dogs with children with sight loss. The dogs can provide the child with emotional support, build confidence and physical activity. And if my daughter requires a guide dog as an adult, she'll transition easily into life as a guide dog owner. I cannot speak highly enough of guide dogs and the incredible dogs they train. Jules thank you so much. I think it is a she, isn't she beautiful? Oh she's gorgeous. She's a guide dog buddy dog. She's got a lovely smile as well. She has got a lovely smile and I'm so glad Jules that she's acting as a good

buddy to your daughter. I hope that continues to go well. So with the touch cards, you can type them. Yeah, touch note. They're really nice, aren't they? Very modern. And we've also got a card here from Hartlepool, the Hartlepool Monkey Legend. Thank you for that. And one that really resonated, the Picton Library's reading room in Liverpool. Anne says, best wishes, Jane, I'm upping the ante

on the postcards, sending a digital card using a photo I took of the magnificent Picton reading room at Liverpool's Central Library. Idea for a merch? Perhaps a jigsaw with a montage of all the postcards you get, Eve? That's a very solemn nod from the other side of the desk there. Adding it to the mental to-do list, aren't you Eve? And thank you for that. Sad to say, my memory of the Picton Reading Room, I only went there once. I got my purse nicked.

But thank you for that Anne. It's brought it all back to me. Was it a hotbed of crime that library? I don't know. I've never, oh you shouldn't say this should you? I've had my purse nicked on two occasions. Once in London about three years ago, that was a pain in the backside, I had to get all my locks changed because I had my driving license

in the burbs, it's got your address on it, do you know that? Yeah I did know that. And I didn't really think about it until I saw my daughter's driving, oh god my life. Anyway so that was that and then years and years ago in the Picton Library in Liverpool and I didn't have the bus fare home so I had to walk back to... Oh, that was tragic. And it took... How far is it? 45 miles? No, it's about six and a half miles back to Crosby.

Oh. Yeah, I know. But it's a straight road. And your little legs, how old were you? 38? I was at university. Oh. Yeah. No mobile legs, how old were you? 38? I was at university. Oh, no mobile phones to ring anyone. But they didn't eat that as well anyway. I mean the bore wall was on in fairness. No, it was a very long time ago.

I'm sure they cleaned up the crime wave in the Picton reading room. It's a beautiful room. I just have that memory of it. Anyway, thank you for all the cards. Honestly, it's lovely to hear from so many of you all over the world and we are really grateful. White. White. White, what have you got? I've got. Thank you so much for all of your messages regarding weight loss jams, which

we obviously started talking about yesterday. There's been some really interesting ones here. I'm going to read out the anonymous one first. Dear Joan and Jane, anonymous says I'm just emailing to say I've had a very positive experience with GLP-1 drugs. I can't remember what it stands for. Glutamate? I don't know. Anyway, those, those weight loss drugs over the past year. Having been overweight all my life and finding it very difficult to lose weight and having had high blood pressure that resulted in a stroke at the age of 48. I've lost 22 kilos which is three and a half stone over one year which was very hard work, says our listener,

it's no easy ride. You have to maintain a calorie deficit and to exercise to lose the weight. The drugs just help you do this. My blood pressure is now normal and I feel great Presumably my new health will save the NHS some money as I'm now at much lower risk of multiple health conditions related to obesity I was also and this is really interesting because we mentioned this yesterday I was also able to reduce drinking alcohol and added benefits people do say that all of those sort of cravings and that noise just Diminishes I feel much happier and more confident says our listener I paid for the drugs myself, bought from ASDA at the online pharmacy. And to be honest, it was cheaper than buying food

at the moment. God, you're probably right. It was cheaper than an air pack. So thank you, anonymous. She's staying anonymous because not all my friends and family know about this, which I also think is interesting because we did talk about the stigma.

But just to say to that person, well done. it's incredible and amazing achievement. I just want to add a quick health and safety thing I mean presumably you should get medical advice before you buy drugs from ASDA or indeed anywhere else. Yeah. But you have to qualify. I absolutely take their point that they are in better health and less likely to cause the NHS or themselves issues in the future. Yes, another listener says another big tick for weight loss jabs, she says it's a complex issue. Listening to us talk about weight loss jabs becoming more than norm while doing her strength

exercises at the gym and had to chip in. Our listener Sarah, I think she's happy to be named, has been struggling with my weight, she says, for nearly 20 years since trying to get pregnant, was diagnosed with polycystic ovary syndrome which causes insulin resistance and prescribed metformin for it. This helps to lower insulin and blood sugar in women with PCOS. While researching the pros and cons of weight loss jabs, I realised that once I'd had my son, no one ever talked to me about managing PCOS symptoms, which don't go away. I'd put in a lot of weight during pregnancy, which had continued when I entered my heriomenopause. She said she tried the slimming world of weight watchers. She lost the weight, but she gained the weight again.

Constant cravings have made it very difficult to sustain. And then she talks about, you know, all the ultra-processed foods, petrol stations, you know, sweets, all the things we're faced with. And she says basically it's not our fault. Our hormones plus the food and retail industry keep us addicted to unhealthy eating habits and weight loss jabs, says Sarah, stop the food noise. They stop the cravings. Weight doesn't magically drop off. You need to eat a healthy diet and be in a sensible calorie deficit but it gives you a huge advantage as that constant noise in your head, saying, eat chocolate, eat chocolate, goes away.

Sarah says, I'm on week six of my injections and I'm no longer battling those food craving demons in my head. It's been a miracle, like a switch has been turned off. It's given me control of my diet so I can focus on eating healthily without the food noise and the constant cravings. And she makes a really important point.

She says, ideally, everyone who needs them should have NHS access to these drugs. It would save the NHS millions down the line in treating the health conditions linked to obesity. But ideally, the food industry should also be more tightly regulated and not allowed to make food that harms our health, that manipulates our hormones and the biochemistry that keeps us addicted to junk food. I'll let you know how I get on, says Sarah. Please do, Sarah, I'd be really interested to know about your

journey. But I mean, those are all really good points. You know, we are, I think everyone who is a propensity to put on weight is, you know, dealing with a food industry that is, you know, that is some... Out to get them. Yeah, totally out to get them. And out to make a profit. And out to make a profit and wildly un to make a profit and and widely unregulated. And also a big taxpayer. Yeah. That's the, isn't that really why the government doesn't clamp down on it? Well, can't.

Yeah. Can't, literally can't afford to. But I mean, I get that point that the food noise is something that, I mean, I don't have a huge issue with my weight, absolutely no pun intended, but I do hear after I've had my main meal, I always feel the call of something sweet. I mean, after any meal, after breakfast, lunch and dinner, I want to eat something sweet. A hundred million percent. So I've started to put my chocolate on the top shelf of the store cupboard. Now I am very short. this necessitates dragging a chair across the kitchen and I don't always have the strength to do it and last night I didn't. Wow. I didn't have any. I wanted some but I just couldn't be bothered.

I bury it seven foot under. I can't find a spade. That reminds me, I wonder how that mouse I buried is getting on. I wonder if it's been tug up. I'll go and check. But I think, please, I'm so interested and Sarah, I'm interested in whether you have your drugs on the NHS or whether you've gone private with them because I have yet to hear from anyone who's actually got them via the NHS. That could just be because of all the stories that we tend to run in the Times magazine about people doing it privately, but I am very interested because the numbers of people... I think it's half a million people currently taking them and very, very few of them are via the NHS.

Yeah, yeah. And the NHS say that there's a supply chain issue for the people who need them, but I don't understand that. If people are able to buy them privately, is it that the NHS isn't doing enough to buy them for the people who need it? Well, that's a good point. Or is it yet another thing the NHS is, you know, is being asked to pay for that, frankly, on top of... It doesn't really want to pay for that frankly on top of...

It doesn't really want to pay for. Yeah, it's possible. But I think that's a really good shout out. So if you are getting these drugs on the NHS and you're doing okay, or even if you're not, we'd love to hear from you. We'll never mention your name if you don't want us to. And now Jane has been interviewed herself by Varsity magazine. Now you were kind enough to send me a copy of this, so've already read it but Ali says as Jane M is back this week I

thought I'd send through her recent interview in Varsity magazine with my son. Thank you Jane for being such a friendly interviewee and putting Ethan at ease. He said you were very chatty and easy to talk to. Well that's lovely to hear that you were so nice to young Ethan. I enjoyed it very much. Once I got over the slight... it's odd being in... when you're in an interview it's very odd being interviewed yourself. It was a slightly odd situation but I enjoyed it very much. Well what's good about it is that you... well you make clear that you've enjoyed your career. It's not over yet. Isn't it? Well, it could be any day now.

There's a couple more podcasts to go this week. No, but not everyone does. No. You always get carpers. But no, you've been very positive about it. Well, I do enjoy it. I feel it's an enormous privilege. There's a great quote from here.

2016 was terrible for the world, but it was a great year for news. People call journalists cynical. Sometimes you've got to say, yeah, tough, but also very interesting. Busy. Yeah, very busy. Greetings, Jane and Jane. It's our old friend Marie. Hope you're recovering.

Enjoying the banter? I've had a dose of norovirus, she says. Your petrol story reminded me of something a friend told me recently. She's originally from the North East but now lives in London. Visiting recently, she stopped in a local garage and said, "'Fill it up.' The petrol pump attendant looked a bit taken aback and said, "'You're not from round here.'

He assumed she was a blow-in because she didn't ask for a fiver's worth." Right. On another subject, if you saw someone you'd hugely admired in your youth, would you say hello? I ask because in Chichester last weekend we spotted, are you ready, Brian Ferry. We were in the Pallant House Gallery and he walked past us rather hurriedly on his way to the Gents. Well listen, we've all been there and Brian is of an age now. I literally turned into a wobbly jelly and came up over all Mavis from Coronation Street. I love Mavis. The banter between Mavis and Rita was the,

to me, it was the best chocolate in the Coronation Street selection box. I absolutely love those two. I don't watch Coronation Street anymore and I kind of really miss it in a way but it used to be perfection when it was on just a Monday and a Wednesday. Did you watch it? No, not really. That's great. Okay, so would you approach someone like Brian Ferry if you saw him? Not if he was on a rush to get to the gents. No, you don't want to interrupt the man of an age on his way to the gents. I do love

Brian Ferry though. I would be very tempted to speak to him always. What would you say to him? Ooh. I saw you at Coachella. You old lounge lizard. How are you doing? The Avalon album I absolutely loved.

I have to say that was when that was my peak Roxy music. I haven't been as keen since. But I love that he... He'll be shattered. He can... I mean, I don't know if he's still performing. He probably is, but I did see him about not that long ago. Oh no, he's performing at Coach Allen and he was amazing. Was he? OK, there is... He is. He's just put something out,

which is a kind of spoken word experimental album that was really critically acclaimed. So there you go. There we go. This is from Georgina. Dear Jane and Fee, I felt compelled to write in after hearing you say Volvos always make you think of vulvas. Well, yeah. Years ago when my son was about three he was chatting to a female buddy about cars. She said, I've got a Volvo, to which my son, very emphatically, perhaps borderline mansplaining, said no, it's called a vulva. Turned to me and gave a slight look of incredulity that he clearly knew more about

female anatomy than his female pal. Well done him. Yeah, it's good to know they start mansplaining at three and then grow up to maybe be David Dimbleby. Oh Jane, gosh. On behalf of the Dimbleby community, I just want to say... Hey, I defended him yesterday. Yeah, no you did. I'm just trying to, you know, even things out. We're still getting stuff about Swiss Army knives. This is from Karen, who says,

She's a long time listener, one day younger than Jane, and scarily similar in so many ways. You would be one day younger. Why can't you be one day older Karen? Nevermind. When my eldest Lizzie was 13 or 14 and a keen girl guide she asked for a Swiss army knife for Christmas. When said gift was unwrapped and examined she looked up delightedly to say, oh great it's got a lip gloss applicator. On closer examination and with a careful look at the packaging we realized it was in fact an implement to clean and or remove stones from a horse's hoof. She's now 37 and she

still uses that Swiss Army knife but not for applying makeup. Right. I think that's absolutely fair. I've never had a Swiss Army pen knife but I did for some years have a Vespa. I used to drive around on a little Vespa and so I had a screwdriver in my handbag. Did you? Yeah, it was taken off me at various check-ins at airports when I would forget to take my screwdriver out of my handbag before boarding a flight. Would you take it abroad with you?

Not intentionally, but I'm just not very good at tidying up my handbag. Right. So just bring out a large screwdriver and look at me quizzically. For some reason this reminds me of a TV recommendation I wanted to make. This is on Amazon Prime. If you're looking for a slightly daft thriller, just to occupy the family for an hour and a half, it's called G20. Have you seen it? No, they marketed it quite hard. Yeah, I bet they did. I mean, it's gone straight to prime. It's not being shown in the cinema. It's very funny. I mean, how much is intentional? I don't know.

I've got another hour to watch and we've reached the point, just to fill you in. It's Viola Davis, right? Yeah. Well, it's Viola Davis as the American president. Brilliant. She's gone to the G20. I trust her. Well, and indeed you do. She's gone to the G20 in Cape Town and there's been a, you know,

an appalling terrorist incident and she finds herself basically on the run trying to solve the situation in the company of one secret service agent, the head of the IMF, who's a French woman, so basically Christine Lagarde, the Japanese, I think, First Lady, and a bumbling idiot who's the British Prime Minister. I mean, who can that be based on? Who knows? I just can't imagine. Is he played by Rory Kinnear?

He seems to play the Prime Minister in everything. It isn't Rory Kinnear, but I thought it might be, you're right, but it's not someone else. Anyway, it's quite funny. Viola Davis has a backstory in that she was an army heroine, so she's quite useful. And so she's really, and she's also wearing a long red ball gown, which can be, bits can be stripped off, which help her in her fighting escapades. So, yeah. You've actually sold it much better than most of the marketing.

Oh well, honestly it's going to be worth another hour of my time. You should get that Radio Times column back. Why do you have to mention that? Can I tell you, it's not a Swiss Army knife story but it is related to things being designed for ladies. When I was still living in New York, I went to interview Diane van Furstenberg. We should have a sound effect for when you drop a name. Clunk. Yeah.

So I went to interview Diane van Furstenberg, not for the first time. And anyway, she was doing perhaps you should remind people who she is. She designs DVF clothery. The famous wrap dress. Von Furstenberg is not her maiden name. She married a European prince where Von Furstenberg came in. She divorced him when it turned out he wasn't totally know totally into only women and um but kept the name as you would. Well I always think that's a quite a good talking point. Absolutely. Actually let's put that out there um if you are a divorced lady as indeed I am um that's you know we're all

in it together ladies uh and some chaps have also been divorced um just widening it out there. Have you hung on to the name if you changed it in the first place and why? That's a really good one actually. Yeah, because I do think it's a very, very personal thing this. If you've got a von in the surname and you just like it, why not keep it? Yeah, oh yeah, please if you're a von, please write in because I love a von. If you've got a von, it doesn't work with Irish names love. There's just no hope of being a von Garvey or a von Mulcairons.

Let's just own it. Right, let's go back strolling down Alex Dote Avenue. So anyway, I went to interview Diane von Furstenberg and her office is in the West Village in New York and she's got a sort of townhouse attached to it. It's really glamorous and fantastic. She was doing some sort of campaign at the time about, you know, empowerment of women and representing women and anyway she, we'd done the interview and she was brilliant and hilarious as ever and then she sort of said,

have you got a copy of my book? And I got about three copies by the point of view and got me more copies of a book and then she said, oh and what about my necklace? And this necklace was part of the campaign for women and it's a necklace that says in charge on it and she gave me the necklace and said I'm really sorry it's not the diamond one you can get your husband to buy you one of those. Because that's the way she rolls. So anyway I have I might wear it tomorrow I might wear my in charge necklace for tomorrow, just the cheap one, not the diamond one because I didn't have a husband to buy me one. Do you keep hold of that kind of promotional tat?

It's such a good necklace and it's attached to a story of you know well it's a pseudo empowerment. A heck of a talking point. Do you wear it on dates? I have done. And does it get a conversation going? Yes. Yeah, you see they go. Little point to that. Sometimes I wear it ironically because I'm not really in charge of anything. Oh no darling, I think you're slightly underselling yourself there. Not really.

Really? Yeah, no. Weren't you the head girl? Deputy. I knew it. Right, let's move on to our guest. I wanted to mention it because... I won the popular vote, not the official vote.

You won the popular vote because you'd probably been seen smoking by some vulnerable younger girls who thought you were really pacey and interesting. Okay? I mean that's nothing to be proud of. I ran a campaign for my friend's head girl election. Did you? Yeah, thank you for asking what I did. You were the Morgan McSweeney of your six forms. And she did win.

Anyway, but that was as close as I got to real power at school. It was never gonna be, it wasn't ever gonna be me, was it? Never mind. I'll get you a badge then. And it shouldn't have been. I wasn't suitable. Clearly, nor was Jane. Right, she just got closer than me. The guest is a really interesting man called John Stock, who's written a book called The Sleep Room, a very British medical scandal. And I wonder whether it's, you know, those journalistic experiences that just never leave you as a young journalist? Mine is without

question. And it made me think this book about that, because he references the psychiatric hospital that I went into as a very young reporter in this book. This is about, I'm going to call him a rogue psychiatrist, a man called William Sargent, who frankly, what you'll hear about in the interview, behaved in a way that you would have to imagine would not be tolerated today, but he went largely unchallenged during his working life. And one of the hospitals mentioned, although I don't think he worked there in this book, is a place called Poick Hospital in Worcestershire. And when it was closing back in the 90s, when they were closing all the huge mental asylums,

I was sent in as a young reporter to try to make a feature about it. I mean, it was, you know, I was totally out of my depth. I was 25, 24, 25, really couldn't do the whole thing justice. But there are things about that day that I will never forget. And it is one of those. I mean, that's why to go back to you giving an interview about journalism, I would also heartily recommend it as a path in life because it makes you ask questions and it takes you to places you'd never normally see. No, and I think, and the sheer variety of places you go and people you meet, I mean, yeah, I went to the sex offender treatment wing of ones with prison at about 25 with Ian Rankin, you know, 600 of the hardest sex offenders.

What were you doing there with Ian Rankin? He was going to do a talk to inmates because at the time his books were the most borrowed books in prison libraries. Right, okay. And yes, it was a kind of extraordinary day. But then, you know, then you're interviewing Davon Firspenberg and Gwyneth Paltrow or whatever, you know, it's the range. It's, as I said to Ethan, and actually some other students that I spoke to recently, you're not going to have the same, you know, house in the south of France

that your friends might have if you go into banking or, you know, commercial law. But you will, I think, have a more interesting and hopefully a rewarding life? Listen, I'm with you. I'm absolutely with you because I think you're right and I think it's a great privilege to be able to experience both good and bad and see it through your own eyes and then hopefully become a, oh my god this sounds awful, just a slightly better person.

I just like being able to ask in person and questions to people. Yes and she has kids, she's made a fortune, don't believe a word of it. She's absolutely minted and she's got that, well it's not quite diamond necklace that says in charge but she's got a free necklace. Right let's go to the guest, here he is. John Stock author of The Sleep Room a very British medical scandal. Now this book is about the Stock, author of The Sleep Room, A Very British Medical Scandal. Now this book is about the life and work of a psychiatrist and a man who, I confess I hadn't heard of John, but he specialised in deep sleep treatment and ECT. He also championed the lobotomy and his sleep room, because there was such a place, was based at St Thomas's Hospital in London. That's right, isn't it?

Yes, yeah. It was actually at the Royal Waterloo which became part of St Thomas's in 1948 when the NHS was formed. Okay, so we should say the man in question is William Sargent. He was hugely influential, man of huge charisma as well, but did have links to the security services. There's so much in this book, I wish we had two hours to talk to you about it, we don't. Really, people will be shocked I think by some of what you say about him and what he did and it isn't all that long ago he only died in 1988. So I know that you're very keen not to upset anybody and I don't we don't want to trigger anyone who's been through similar sorts of experiences so if you think this conversation might upset you then obviously you don't need to listen.

If you rejoin Times Radio at about 10 to 4 that will be fine. But tell us a little bit about how you came across the story in the first place. Yeah well I'd been writing fiction for a long while and I did a lot of real-world research in those books and I was looking more recently when I was writing psychological thrillers at sort of the whole world of psychiatry. And it was actually I was interviewing another author at our local literary festival in in in Marlborough where I live. And it was a chap called Sam Knight who wrote a book called The Premonitions

Bureau and it's about postwar psychiatry. And it was a really interesting story. So I had a look around just thought, could I find someone else who hasn't been written about? And I do think it's probably one of those rare situations where the more I discovered, I thought, why hasn't a book been written about this man? You know, it was, the seas parted, you know,

there was a chapter here, a little bit there, there was a little half hour radio documentary back in 2009, late great Michael Moseley did a tiny bit about him in 2012, but nothing definitive had been written. And he, but someone started writing his biography and then, and then she died and handed her papers back to the Wellcome collection. And I discovered all this material there, all his personal letters and things. And it was just, I just thought this is the person. I mean, it's hard to, hard to think about it now, but William Sargent was a household

name. I mean, in the fifties and sixties, by the end of the 60s, he was on the television all the time. He was the public face of psychiatry. And he was, I think why I found him very interesting was that he decided to reject talking therapies. He didn't believe in any sort of couch work. He called them Freudian sofa merchants, the sort of the psychotherapists. He believed in a very physical mechanistic approach couch work, he called them Freudian sofa merchants, the sort of the, you know, the psychotherapists.

He believed in a very physical, mechanistic approach to problems of the mind. So if your leg is broken, you splint it, if there's a problem with your mind, you splint the brain. That was his approach. And that really culminated in the sleep room, as you say, but he was the first person to flick the switch, or the second, I think the second person in the UK to flick the switch on an ECT machine. He championed lobotomies throughout his career. And he also was a big advocate of medication. He believed in anti-psychotic medication, which came along in the 50s, and antidepressants. And these all sort of came together, which we'll talk about, what actually happened in the sleep room.

I've heard the term lobotomy. I don't, if I'm honest, don't fully understand what it means, what is it? You're sort of, you're severing, you're severing the sort of the prefrontal cortex from the thalamus, if you think of a, like, again, I don't want to upset people, like a windscreen wiper operation with a, with a sort of knife, it's, you are just literally cutting away bits of the brain. And, and Sargent, as late as 1972, he said, if a depressed woman is in a relationship and suffering with a difficult husband The woman not the man should consider having a lobotomy to better cope with that marriage. That's 1972 right Here he is because I do want people to hear this man's voice. This is William Sargent He's talking on the BBC about sleep therapy, which we'll talk about next. It's 1971 I wonder whether they

really were depressed and whether they could be got better by shock therapy. Well now if you give a person too much shock they get very upset. So what I did in the end was put them to sleep and give them their electrical treatment and their antidepressant drugs under sleep and we're now finding that we can keep people with modern drug therapies asleep for up to three months. And he really did keep people asleep. Just explain the mechanics of the process. Yes. So sleep therapy, I mean, there is a sort of underlying theory behind this that, you know, sleep, if you've got a lot of problems in life, you have a good night's sleep, the world seems a better place in the morning. And Shakespeare himself talked about sleep being the balm of hurt minds, you know, it's nothing new that sense, but maybe 24

hours or something just to date someone for a bit, Sargent put one woman poor woman to sleep for five months. And he basically decided that he was giving electric shock therapy to people with antidepressants. And then he discovered if he did this while they were asleep, particularly those patients who couldn't bear the thought of electro electro convulsive therapy He would have better results. So basically it was those people who didn't want to have ECT who were so frightened of it He would put them to sleep and he said the great advantage was when they woke up at the end of these three months or four months

They would have no recollection that they'd been given this ECT treatment. So there was no sense of consent and this all took place in this tiny airless room on the very top floor. It was in ward five, on the very top of the Royal Waterloo Hospital. People walking past across Waterloo Bridge might recognise the building with a red terracotta tiling. Right at the very top there was this airless small room where six people, generally six women, were sleeping on low-divan beds and they would be woken, and they would be woken every six hours, I say woken, they were sort of got from their beds, taken to the bathroom, force-fed, had their teeth cleaned for them and put back to sleep again. They weren't really awake and I do think sergeants, sergeant

would have had five people died during the sleep room when it ran from 64 to 72 if it hadn't been for the wonderful work of the nightingale nurses all the student nurses who worked there and who dreaded being appointed to the sleep room that was the worst shift if it hadn't been for them they've been a lot more fatalities you have um some absolutely amazing first-hand accounts in the sleep room of women who were his patients and they all reminisce and remember very clearly the smell. So Aselia Imrie, hugely gifted actress, wasn't in the sleep room was she, but she was being treated by Sargent close to it. She was there, she was admitted age 14 in 1966 with anorexia and she writes very honestly, I've got six chapters throughout the book,

which are all first-person testimonies. I felt it very important to foreground the patient's experiences, because it was too tempting to focus on this, that almost focused on this pantomime villain of a sergeant. And I really wanted to make sure that the patients were front and center. And the patients were by and large women,

I would say 95% women in the sleep room. So yeah, Celia Imrie was there. She's not sure whether she was in the sleep or not. She's very honest about that. But the problem was you went into the sleep room heavily sedated, you came out heavily sedated, and it was very hard to get hold of your medical records afterwards, some of which Sardin destroyed. So who knows, she might have been in there. But yes, there were six people who were willing to talk to me. I had the courage to share and trust their stories with me and I hope I've done them justice. They are remarkable women.

I feel very protected over them. Their life stories are actually worth reading. I mean, not just Celia Imrie, who's obviously gone on to have a stellar career, but some of the other women, the lives they've led, gone on to lead, just remarkable. Well, yeah, we were lucky. One of them them Linda Keith,

she came to the launch party last week in Marlborough actually and it was lovely. She was admitted at 1969 age 21. She was a vogue model in the 60s, her first boyfriend when she was 17 was Keith Richards. She left Keith Richards for Jimi Hendrix, had this wild, in her world, in her words, sort of sex, drugs and rock and roll lifestyle, descended into a drug addiction and her parents sent her to the sleep room. They sent her a copy of the book first and they drove her past his house in Hamilton Terrace in St. John's Wood and said this great man is going to help you. He was this huge, charismatic superstar of psychiatry.

He was and he was also this kind of patrician figure you know in an era when male consultants weren't challenged by anyone you know I know some people say that's still the case today but there is there was in those days you know his minions trailing behind him he was bursting through swing doors and he he was a big six foot two player with these really dark kind of black kind of like wash pebble eyes you know and he was a big 6'2'' player with these really dark kind of black, kind of like, washed pebble eyes, you know, and he was a rugby player, he played for the Barbarians. He was very old school, went to Cambridge and had lots of very, very senior friends in the establishment

and no one dared challenge him. No, you say the nurses on the whole were brilliant. Some of them, I think, did ask questions, didn't they? Yes, I mean, there was, he also worked on a Friday at Belmont which is in Sutton. He had another sleep room there and there was one remarkable, I interviewed someone for the book called called Rose and she talked about Sister Brown and this figure Sister Brown was the only person I ever heard about who stood up to Sargent and said not on my watch he's not giving ECT to anyone on my watch and she I don't know I don't think she's alive anymore and if anyone ever heard hears more about Sister Rand I'd love to know

because she was a formidable woman and she she called him out she saw what he was up to and I'm afraid that's the other the other side to the story is that he was also a sexual predator and that's that's something that's becoming clear since publication the people have been getting in contact with me since publication, two or three people a day at the moment. Really? And the story seems to be much worse than I've told. WhatsApp has just said, you're not asking a question, did it work? Trust me I was about to, but now you've asked me to ask it, I'm definitely going to. Did it work? Well, he claimed it did but only on a short-term basis.

The problem was he wasn't very good on long-term follow-up studies, so some people would get better briefly and be released from hospital, but they would relapse and be readmitted three months down the line. And I think those figures of five people who died in the sleep room, there are people who died of things like paralytic ileus when your guts get paralysed. Yes, because without being too explicit, these patients were given enemas, weren't they? They were, yeah, they were. So it was constipation and the gut being paralysed was the biggest problem for what people died of. So did it work? He, of course, said yes, we had quite good results. He used it for people suffering from psychosis.

He used it for menopausal women who were depressed. He used it for people suffering from anxiety and from severe depression. And it was true, if they didn't recover from the sleep room, they would then be lobotomized. It was considered to be a last chance saloon. So I think it's most of the people I spoke to said it didn't work for them at all. And there are one or two people who said, well, I got better better but I don't know if it was anything to do with Sargent. That was the problem in those days, no one really knew what actually was going to, what actually was working and why. I guess, I mean some people would say the same applies today.

Yes, yes, I mean we still don't, I mean Sargent I think, you know, the massive use of SSRI, antidepressants at the moment, we don't really know what they do on the brain. There's this big serotonin theory that it redresses the balance of serotonin in the brain. We don't fully know that. There are no biomarkers for depression in the brain. You look at a depressed person's brain, it's the same as your or my brain, you know. So, yes, when things do work, it's great, but often in psychiatry, I'm not a psychiatrist, and I've very much got to stay in my lane here, but I was amazed how many times I came across it where oh yes this seems to work but we have no idea why take lithium for example you know no one really knows why that

works. It's also worth saying that by the way I hope people have got the message this is a fascinating book I think they probably will have got the message by now but he himself had been in a psychiatric hospital you think as an inpatient. Yes in 1934 he was due been in a psychiatric hospital, you think, as an inpatient? Yes, in 1934. He was due to make a presentation at the Royal Society of Medicine in Wimpole Street in December 1933 and didn't turn up because he knew he was desperate to try and be a physician in mainstream medicine and his paper was going to be shot down by his colleagues. He didn't turn up and he was admitted to Hanwell, what was then called Hanwell Lunatic Asylum, in early 1934. And he appears to have had a breakdown. It was one of several breakdowns he had in his own life.

And it was the MP, the late Harriet Harman's, the former MP, Harriet Harman's father, John Harman, was his best friend. And Sargent's mother called up John Harmon and said can you go and visit William Sargent, your friend at Hanwell, as a friend not as a not as a colleague. Yeah I mean that's an indication that this man, although a maverick, was very much at the heart of the medical establishment and the British establishment and he did run didn't he to be president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. He was gutted not to be the first president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. He was gutted not to be the first president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists. Yeah, he'd been very involved in its predecessor and he couldn't believe it when he wasn't,

in 1972 he wasn't made president and he never really forgave them. He used to regularly get his own books printed up and sent to all members of the Royal College of Psychiatrists just to remind everyone who he was and that he was a best-selling author. And this is the guy who wrote the definitive book on brainwashing in 1957. Yeah if we had another two days. With Robert Graves you know Ghost wrote it for him. With Robert Graves I mean if we had more time I would definitely go into the Secret Service links and all the rest of it and MK Ultra which as you say is still very much. You've let that genie out the bottle now.

People will be just go down a Google rabbit hole and see what you can find out. But although he did focus on women in the sleep room, he treated servicemen, didn't he? Yes. With all sorts of LSD experiments. Yes. I mean, I was very keen. There's so many conspiracy theories around this man because he touched on so many different parts of the intelligence services, both here in America. I was very keen to sort of stick to what I could prove. I spoke to one person and there was also I found an interview with another person who were convinced that Sargent gave them gave them both LSD at Porton Down in the early

1950s on behalf of MI6 who had been asked on behalf by the CIA. And they had no idea what they were taking. So that was part of that trend in the in the early 50s when LSD was being given to people both here in America without them knowing they were taking LSD and this chap all he remembers was cycling around the corridors of Porton Down with people with clipboards taking notes you know he was off his head. John I wish we honestly I wish we had more time but thank you for the time you give me. No I think I hope it's whetted a few appetites.

The book is called The Sleep Room, a very British medical scandal and it's about William Sargent. Thank you so much for your time, John. We really love hearing from you. The postcards have just been epic. Thank you so much for all of those and keep on sending them in. Actually, well, if you get the chance. Jane, thank you for your company. Thank you. See you tomorrow. And we'll be back tomorrow.

Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.