Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A life of letting them dangle

Episode Date: February 4, 2026

This is an after-hours podcast episode…Welcome to the twilight zone… well, 4:12pm. Expect more butter-dish chat, non-traditional ratatouille, neutering your pets (and your ex), and there's an accent warning... Plus, Steve Crawshaw, journalist and former UK director at Human Rights Watch, joins us to discuss his book Prosecuting the Powerful: War Crimes and the Battle for Justice.Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Now, I am so happy to admit that every day is a learning curve day. And the next time I discuss the outcome of an incredibly popular TV program, I am not just going to say spoiler alert like that and then carry on. I'm going to say spoiler alert, and then I'm going to count to five. I won't even be doing that in my head. I'll be going very slowly, one through to five, because I just rushed in to the night managers, de Numer and a couple of people,

Jeannie in particular. Quite angry. Yes, just said, you've ruined the ending by giving your opinion on the outcome of the series which you had already watched. I very much hope that nobody has joined this podcast. Well, what I will say about us is that we do own our mistakes.

Well, we do, no, and I'm happy to because it's not enough to just say spoiler alert because it doesn't give people who aren't listening with something in their hands at that moment enough time to run across the room and turn down the radiogram. So, Jeannie, sincere apologies for that. But hello to all of the people

who did agree, actually, that they weren't satisfied by the ending. I'm not going to say anything else about the colour of the ending or the type of the ending, but Helen Clark is feeling very much the same way as well. And a couple of other people,

this one comes in from Oh no, that's Rowena. She was gutted as well. All right. Well, it didn't bother me at all because I haven't watched any of it. So you say what you like. Well, that's kind of you.

But I would have been really annoyed. Oh, it's Alison. Maybe that's your sister. She got in touch to say I would have said exactly the same about it. So there we go. Okay. Well, that's Apology Corner over with.

Very early in this podcast. It is Wednesday as we speak. And we're doing it in a little bit later than we normally would. We'd normally do it before lunch, we're doing it after lunch today, the podcast. Let us know if you can detect any difference in quality or whether it's still the same old Tosh.

Can I just say we had a little NHS appointment this morning at the local hospital at the Homerton, nothing to worry about, etc, etc. But it was a real insight, actually. The staff was so lovely. And when we went in, we were completely surrounded by people saying, you should go that way, what times your appointment? Oh, the volunteers?

Yes. Yeah, they're great. It was really amazing. There was a little bit of a delay in the appointment system but I think that is to be expected but then by the time he got out it was chaotic. It had just gone from early morning, absolutely on target, wonderful.

It just seems a chaos two hours later. We couldn't understand it at all so we made our excuses and left. And I've got a photograph as well we were sitting in the waiting room for a while. My legs just don't touch the floor, Jane. Oh, dear. The family member I was with thought it was very amusing to take a picture of that of the dangle.

But this is why my back's gone. Because for 57 years. Seriously, you might be right there actually. What can be done? Nothing at all. I just have to let them dangle instead of trying to overly cross them or I suppose it's because

we're sitting down for most of the day here, aren't we? And you do slightly clench if you can't put your feet on the floor. Maybe we could become the standing up jocks that we... What a good idea. Have you ever done stuff? No, of course I'm bloody. What do you think? Of course I haven't.

No, but maybe... Well, it might be the thing that you need. It might suddenly cheer you up. Maybe we should both start standing up to broadcast. I think that's very odd. Let's try it tomorrow. Very, very odd. It was a big, big thing, wasn't it, in the commercial radio? Blokes really went for it, yeah. I'm not sure about the ladies. They thought that it gave them a much more kind of...

Energy. Gasly thought. Right, regarding heated rivalry, writes Anonymous. on this occasion. This is the steamy show available, as you might well know, on certain TV channels, but not available to me in my now television package. I was chatting on the phone, says Anonymous to my mom a couple of weeks ago. She is in her 80s. And she mentioned that they both, her and her dad, my dad, not her dad, her and my dad, had been watching a very interesting TV show over the weekend. She couldn't remember what it was called, but said it was

about two ice hockey players. Was it called heated rivalry? I asked, slightly nervously. I hadn't watched it myself at this point, but had heard all about it from my daughter, who's in her 20s and had loved it. Yes, that's right, said my mum, and proceeded to tell me all about how her and my dad had really enjoyed it, finding it interesting and a bit different. I asked how much of it she'd watched. Oh, the whole thing, she said, it's funny, but I wouldn't have thought that an old married couple in their 80s at the target audience for heated rivalry, but I guess it goes to show it has wide. appeal than one might think. I myself binged watched it a couple of weeks ago.

I don't know if you two have got round to seeing it yet. I started it last night, but then I thought, oh, it's a bit too late to have started this. I might get a bit hot under the collar. So I transferred my attentions to a Linda Lapland. Okay. But Mononymous writes, I think the sex scenes were overhyped, not a willy in sight, just a few buttocks and lots of heavy breathing.

It's a very Hollywood depiction of sex. You know, the kind of scenes where, if they're a heterosexual couple and yeah this is hilarious the woman would still have her bra firmly fixed on at the end that always used to be the wade anyway I'll be interested to hear your thoughts

if you do or have got around to watching it so based on the little flavour of it you gave yourself last night will you be returning well I think I probably will I will give it a go yes it's an interesting point though isn't it I think actually when I'm in my 70s and 80s

and it would be lovely to imagine that I might get there I think I want to watch some pretty hot stuff. Why not? Nothing to lose. I'd be having seven sugars in my tea. Full fat milk and some... Quite lots of porn. Fun time, Jane.

Bucket of vanilla slices. What's not to like? Taco Bell is your friend. This is an email that I was very grateful to receive. This comes from Adam. He's a director and he works in road haulage. And you and I have all right. often said that in our third age, this might be our future career.

He's a trucker. He is a trucker. So little Jane Garvey and little Fieglover in the Pantechnican. Well, you'd need to have a special seat. I don't think realistically you could drive. I mean, I might be able to, with a booster seat of some description. Oh, no, I don't think you know. You don't want to follow whatever the opposite of a boost. But then how would I see her? Anyway, never mind. We can't do that, Adam. Anyway, he's not inviting us to do it. Diffie, in the absence of the Burger King, Spicy Bean Burger, the

Taco Bell 7 there, Burrito is your friend. Enjoy, he says. There aren't that many... I never know how to pronounce that place, which is why I never go there. What, Taco Bell? I thought it was Taiko Bell. Takeo Bell.

It just had no idea. There aren't that many in Britain, are there? I don't. Is it Mexican? Well, I would imagine. So if you were in any kind of a Mexican restaurant, you would be ordering the takos? Yes.

Yes. Could I have a... Hello? Could I have a teaco? Honestly, didn't know. How do you go at an enchilada? Well, nervously. And actually, I've only ever tackled one or two of those in my life.

It wasn't good. Terribly messy. I mean, there's not potential spillage. There is, isn't there? No, I'm not a fan. Yeah. No, I don't know how they're coping the heat in those places. Eating that sort of food.

Anyway, good luck to them. Yeah, but they'll probably say the same about our suet puddings and stuff like that. Oh, come, you can't argue with a jam roly-poly. Imagine introducing a Mexican. Would you like some jam roly-poly and custard? And a big pie. A big pie. Although I think there can't possibly be a cuisine in the world

that doesn't have some kind of interpretation of meat wrapped in pastry. I put that challenge out there. Gosh. Presumably in incredibly hot countries. You've got your bow buns. You've got your empanadas. You've got all kinds of roti wraps. I don't know.

Okay. Let's ever think about it. Are people chowing down on the so... I was going to say sausage rolls in Riyadh, but they won't in Riyadh, because... No. Okay. Jewel, it's just that was so unfortunate. Of all the things he could be. Of all the places I could imagine. Okay. Oh dear.

We got one. We've got one from Julia. This is very funny. Hearing you chat about how companies and organisations are desperate to maximise marketing around Valentine's Day, I thought I'd send you just how... our local animal rescue charity are fundraising during the Festival of Love. This is lovely. Yeah.

It's the G.S.PCA here in Galway in Ireland, and they're offering the option to neuter your ex. Now, this is an imaginative way of getting the love message across and helping our animal friends at the same time. For 30 euros, they will name a feral cat after your ex and neuter them as part of their trap, neuter and release program. You have to ask why could this not be broadened out to the human population? And why on earth can't we all take part in this? It would be great to have one of your feral exes trapped, neutered, then released. I'm not sure if somebody from the organisation.

I wouldn't release them. Not sure if someone from the GSPCA has recently been heartbroken and are not in the mood for the traditional Valentine's activities, but I thought this was pretty decent marketing. Also attached is a picture of our cat, Keema, not named after an ex, but a detective from the wire, who we adopted from this organisation, the GSPCA, two years ago. Well, that animal looks delicious and very comfortable in your happy home, Julia. Thank you very much for this excellent idea from the Republic of Ireland.

I think it is great. Yeah, absolutely. If I'm out and about in the park and I see a dog roaming around with its knackers still intact, I just find it really disturbing now because most people are neutering their pets. It's a sensible responsible thing to do. I've been a dog owner really not of a male dog so I don't know

and when they're great big you know ball swingers going on. Just absolutely I tell Nancy look away darling look away it's not for you Dear both this comes in from Jenny does anyone put margarine in butter dishes well

could we say I didn't know when I was starting with the butter dish thing I think we've established it's very much back. My ex-late or late-ex mother-in-law, late mother of my ex-husband, did. Nearly 40 years ago, I was confronted with gloopy stalk in the butter dish, complete with toast crumbs generally, generously added by my ex's dad. When the margarine ran out a new block was inserted without washing the butter dish, it shook me to the core. Another highlight of those times was a recipe shared by mother-in-law for Ratatooey. Just cook a bag of mixed vegetables, which would include a few bits of coagette, along with various other unidentifiable things from the freezer in the

microwave, add a generous dollop of tomato ketchup. Bob's your uncle. This would be served with mints. Mother-in-law was very proud of the bargain mints she had found in Bradford Market. It came in plastic tubes like dog meat and cost 50p a pound. Jenny were amazed you're alive. I should add this family was financially pretty comfortable. Blime it, they're always the worst, aren't they?

I wonder sometimes which are my habits making a mark on my grown-up children and their partners. Perhaps I would rather they didn't tell me. I've emailed a few times before. Hope you find room for this. We absolutely have family for this. And also, Jenny, I think it's such a lovely question to ask, actually. It would be really interesting to hear of habits that, you know, that you have inherited from the older generation. You kind of just wish you hadn't.

you know, with a sensible logical head-on, nobody should be putting a bag of mixed vegetables in the microwave, adding a dollop of ketchup, and calling it ratted to him. I just shouldn't be doing it. I bet somebody is, Jenny. Just run through the price of that mince again. 50 pounds a pound. Come in a plastic tube.

God, buddy. Poor, poor Eve's a vegetarian. Let's move on. Let's move on to yet another shot of a off-air listeners, swimming pool. We just had no idea how many of you. You're just minted out there. We just didn't know. Well, the lovely ladies swimming in this swimming pool, they're swimming in a stand-up swimming pool. Yes, I know, but they still got one. Yeah, but they're not very expensive, Jane. They really aren't.

Jules says, look at my small unheated pool in the garden in Wiltshire. Currently getting in every day to help acclimatise for the international winter swimming championships. Coming up at the beginning of March, and I'm going to get this wrong in Ulu in Finland. where the water is expected to be about nought or one degrees. I'm absolutely terrified of competing, but I've entered the shortest distance, 25 metres, fully expecting to come last, but getting in and making it to the end will be an achievement.

Certainly will. Jules, let us know how you get on. How fantastic. This is something you can just enter yourself. I mean, you should have a go. I know your back's playing up, but I mean, come on, beginning of March, got a few weeks.

Well, no, our correspondent is doing it the sensible way, because you can't just dive in if you haven't been cold water swimming for a while in order to, I want to say warm up but that's not the right phrase, you know what I mean? Cool down. Yeah, okay. Otherwise you're going to hurt yourself. Well, honestly, I'm really impressed Jules.

And, I mean, don't, the fact that you're brave enough to even have a try, 25 metres doesn't strike me, is, how shorter distance is that? Well, that is half a length of an Olympic swimming pool. Oh, okay. It's not too far, actually, not too far. Why don't you do 50 metres, Jules? Go on. Don't, Jules.

Just do it at your own pace. Take no notice of her. Good luck. To drink or not to drink. Best wishes. I listened with interest to Monday's episode, especially the problem of trying to find an acceptable alcohol-free wine.

Not an issue is I don't drink wine, but my lovely niece has found an acceptable now alcohol gin. So acceptable, in fact, several of our relatives insist on checking before imbibing. So if anybody's looking for an authentic substitute, try tankeret ice and a slice. So tankeray is a full alcohol gin, but obviously they're doing an alcohol free one, aren't they? And interesting correspondence about whether or not dry January,

if you've chosen sobriety as your permanent path is a little bit irritating. And obviously for some people it is. And for others, it's just like, no, I mean, the good place that you reach in your head is just, I'm doing me, you're doing you. So, you know, whatever month it is. You know, whatever month it it's absolutely fine. Yeah. But mildly irritating to some people, I suppose, just because of the volume around it. There is quite a lot of noise about it these days, isn't there?

I mean, I do agree. We've got a number of people who just say, look, I stopped because I knew I had a problem. And I do, people say that, and they say it quite lightly, but I bet it took an enormous amount of courage and has been bloody difficult to do. So well done to those people who have made that decision.

Yeah. We're still such a weird country, aren't we? culture, where there's still quite a lot of oh, yeah, well there is. There's judgment if you don't drink. Well, there just shouldn't be, should they? No, no, I mean, I really do respect

people who navigate a social life in this country and never, ever, ever drink alcohol because I bet it's not always easy. Susie's in Sydney, every Christmas, my father brought me home from work, from his work, a box containing 200 packets of juicy fruit. Oh, God Almighty. I can still remember the delicious crunch and zingy taste after 60 years.

Yeah, but crucially, it wasn't the delicious crunch and zingy taste of fruit, was it? It was an indescribable melange of something. But there was no hint of fruit. You couldn't identify either a banana, an apple, a strawberry. Or a papaya. My friends eagerly anticipated this yearly box of joy because I was a good sharer. Oh, all right, Susie.

despite the myth of the only child we spent Don't take that on board We spent many hours and weeks Over the long summer holidays Chewing and slurping and blowing bubbles And seeing how many pieces We could cram into our mouths

While still being able to chat We often swapped mouth loads Just to be clear This is happening in the place we call Down Under It wouldn't be something That would happen in England or indeed the rest of this sometimes somewhat benighted set of islands.

No, it just wouldn't be done, would it? That's just disgusting. You've got to do an Australian accent. It's absolutely disgusting. Just spit it out. Now say it. Spit it out. With your mouthful of juicy fruit.

Oh gosh. I love this next bit. This stood me in good stead for the annual grape stuffing competition at the University of Sydney. Now that's just dangerous. That's really, really dangerous. Really dangerous. It gets better this. It was back in the early 70s. I won it easily in my first year. Managing to hold 31 grapes and to read clearly from a book. I mean, the book she chose is absolutely off the scale, completely inappropriate.

It was Sylvia Plath's The Bell Jar. Susie and Sydney. I don't know. We might have to ban you. That's terrible. Just definitely, definitely don't try that at home. Oh my goodness. That gives me the giggles just thinking about it. No, I mean, but yeah. Lindsay comes in, best wishes from South Oxfordshire.

Dear Jane Fee and Eve, on recently watching an episode of A Place in the Sun, my husband, observe, they should just call it a place in the arse end of Spain. This is based on our shared observation. Did you see it last night? I did see it last night? There was a couple.

There was a guy on there and he's wearing my... Look, I'm not... Look, I'm no fashion. knows I don't know anything about fashion. I cannot stand those utility shorts with the big deep pockets. What are they for? I don't know, but I didn't, I didn't think that, I didn't think it was the thing that let him down the most. Sorry. Well, okay, I'll let you have that, but carry on. They were in Italy last night, weren't they? I tell you what, I'm sure he's a lovely guy, but if you're on a property program looking to find your dream house in your dream location for your dreamy rest of your life,

you've just got to look a bit more with easy. He didn't, he wasn't a gusher, was he? He wasn't incredibly hard to please. Oh gosh, anyway. A place in the arse end of Spain, says Lindsay's husband. This is based on our shared observation, having watched more episodes than I'd cared to admit. Well, you and me both, I'm Jane.

That the locations to which the guests are taken are invariably completely desolate. There's never anybody around. It's very true. it's no surprise that nobody ever wants to buy any of the properties there shown the housing developments in towns look entirely bleak the only explanation I can think of is they film the shows very out of season which I imagine comes as somewhat of a disappointment to the guests who only apply

because they want a free holiday well there's quite often a shot of them shivering on a beach isn't there at the end and last night they were shivering on a beach in the middle of nowhere actually it might have been the day before and they're always having orange juice because it's that time of day they're never having a glass some wine. So if they do end up buying a property, that then after the credits rolled, it turns out they didn't buy anyway, they can't really do a proper cheers. They're just... There's no clinking cheers, is there? And it just sometimes it does look like it might be 8.30 in the morning before, you know, they hop foot it back to Stansted on Ryanair.

Well, the couple last night, she wanted genuine, rustic Italian, didn't she? Yeah, but she didn't, want any, any neighbours, but they didn't want to be too far from anywhere. I mean, the list was just a ping pong of things. It was awkward. The presenter was absolutely tearing a hair out. She was incredibly patient showing them all these properties. One was gorgeous. And, I mean, when you compare them to British prices,

it does look like a bargain, doesn't it? There's one beautiful place. It was 100,000, I think it was 103,000 or something, beautifully modernised. And it had its own olive grove. Oh, didn't it? It's own olive grove. That was the one.

And she didn't either of them like that. No. God. Honestly, what do people? What are they often? I don't know, but they couldn't. They couldn't buy their dream house because they had a problem with their visas. And I suggest that they're just failed on the, are you happy?

Are you alive? Lindsay just ends saying also on the subject of whether you can predict a pet's personalities when they're tiny. I will say that my two cats, brothers, now eight years old, have had more or less the same personalities from when they were nine weeks old. One is confident and deloof, the other affectionate yet anxious. I also don't feel that I did the choosing. when I'm going to meet them as kittens at their then foster home. One of them, confident and aloo, fixed me with the most intense Disney-eyed stare

that I was basically done for. He's now very much my cat, whilst the other prefers my husband. Gosh. When Dora went for a check-up at the bets, she was described as a very confident cat. And I was rather flattered. Yeah, that's nice, isn't it? I thought, I've done something right. That's very nice.

Yeah. It's an little bit like a school report, isn't it? It's like a school report, isn't it, basically, on your child? Yeah, yes. I mean, you don't want somebody to describe her as a diffident tow rag. No, she's certainly not diffident. Congratulations to Philly, who sends us a beautiful photograph of her baby. Look at this.

Their passport photograph. Oh, it's so lovely. What a happy, happy, happy, happy, smiley, beautiful. Slightly teething on the right hand side, I think, face. Yes, it's Cora. Her name is Cora Pepper. And I've just been to see my sister and her newborn in London, writes Philly. I just jumped on the train home to Wiltshire.

And I went to ask the train conductors on the platform. There were three of them. I don't know why. If I could possibly use the loo in the first class to pump, to use my breast pump. As these loos are bigger, they are bigger. I don't know why in first class you qualify for a bigger bog, but for some reason you do. One of the train people, they were all men in their 50s, replied, instantly, only if you leave the door open.

With a lechy look. With a lechy grin. To which one of the others laughed uproariously and the other one looked awkward and at his shoes. Right. My question is, am I being oversensitive? Because this made me feel horrid. I nearly said that's not funny.

But then I thought he'd just say something along the lines of eyes to the heavens. It was only a joke. And I've still got the postpartum hormones swirling around. So genuinely, maybe I'm being oversensitive. I trust your collective judgment, says Philly. Oh dear, yes. Well, always trust. Well, trust us, yeah, on one level. Absolutely. Thank you for that.

I'm just, at the moment, I think a lot of us are just feeling just a bit tired of men. Not all men, but quite a lot of men. And we could just do without that, Philly. And I don't blame you for feeling that you just didn't want to hear it. They can just sod off. Yeah, I completely agree. Really just had a belly full of that kind of thing. It shouldn't happen.

They shouldn't do it. and the one who knew it was wrong should have done something. But actually we were talking on the radio program, and weren't you today, about it would be lovely if one of those men, one of the Epstein men, came forward and started to speak. So it is astonishing. I'm not comparing those two experiences, but it isn't yet enough,

it's just another example. There are kind of opposite ends of the same line, though, aren't they? Yeah, they are. And the only people who are really talking about what happened are women, so that's the survivors. And recently joining the fray is Bill Gates' wife, Melinda, French Gates. But as she says in a podcast that she's done when she's asked about whether or not Bill Gates was, I mean, there's an astonishing email, isn't there,

which basically alleges that he had all kinds of liaisons and might have needed some medication after them. He says that's not true. And he says that's not true. And she says quite rightly, you know, it's a really painful memory for me to go back there and think about my marriage, which didn't work out. And also you've just got to go and ask him. And they've just got to start answering questions.

So the list of men involved with all of this nefarious activity who all want us as journalists and you as people listening to take heed of their denials, so we have to say, after nearly every person we mentioned, denies any wrongdoing, has never said that that actually happened. We have to say all of that to protect their reputations. Well, why don't you join the conversation? Why don't you have the conversation with us

about exactly what did go on and why you weren't directly involved in it? Name some names. Yeah, because you've got nothing to lose. Because you've apparently got nothing to lose. Yeah, absolutely. So you cannot be having it both ways. And the silence, the absolute silence

from hundreds of men who attended these parties and were on emails to him. I mean, it's just the silence is deafening, Jane, isn't it? And somebody, please day, God, just break rank. you'll feel better. I mean, you know, these aren't men who don't have consciences. They've got good lawyers.

They might have consciences too. Oh, yeah, there we go. Dismal. Really dismal. We've come a long way from Philly's email, but thank you for it, Philly. And honestly, you're absolutely entitled to feel angry and upset. Oh, do you know what?

It's so, it's shaming something that's not to be shamed. It's horrible. No, it's really, really awful. This is about group singing from Barry, who's in Wellington in New Zealand. A couple of comments. He says, first of all, I won't be watching you when you start to video your podcast. As part of the joy of listening is me smiling, as I imagine, all the laughter and the looks and the connection. And the energy, Eve, the energy that is going on in the studio.

Eve was nodding off there. It's the natural spontaneity that keeps what you do fresh and interesting. Yes, I think perhaps it's about time we heard from Eve, because. because she hasn't spoken in this podcast. And we're still getting emails about her lovely voice. So come on then. I don't know. It's such an aggressive introduction.

Come on then. Speak. You've just had a big box of chocolates from management. Come on, you've got plenty to celebrate. I didn't have one. I haven't had one yet. Okay. So come to me after the sugar rush of that.

Okay, right. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for that. Heartfelt stuff. Oh, go ahead. The microphone's falling off. Right. Barry says, this is good for you.

Not once in. nine years. Mary's been listening to this for nine years. Has he ever thought the podcast has become stale? Oh, well I think that's generous, Barry, because certainly I've told a few of my stories

more than eight times. I know that I have, too. And actually, we've... We had some episodes, I think, during the lockdowns and stuff. Oh, we're going mad. Yeah, we knew that we were slightly end of tether and repeating

and just gabbling away. So it's kind of you to say that. Well, actually, Barry goes on to say the significance of that nine years is that throughout this time, I've been a real up-and-down journey of recovery and coming to terms with living with a depression that was episodic, now chronic.

So thank you. Look, Barry, if we can keep your company just for half an hour of some of your days, then that does us, and thank you very much for your loyalty. She says, after listening to Jane's experience of a large group singing, I thought the members of the hive

would be interested in the pub choir. Now, I think it must be a New Zealand thing. He says, in these heavy times, I often watch one of the pubs pub choir videos, just to be reminded at what happens when a group of strangers come together and share in the beautiful human experience of singing. Honestly, you should see their joy-filled faces. It says it all.

It says it all, and you'll be pleased to see the number of men joining in. Right, and you send us a link. Barry, thank you for that. And I think that must be a New Zealand initiative, where you get together in a pub on one night or another, and you just let rip. Sounds good. Oh, I'm sure there are pub choirs around here.

Because that Gareth Malone bloke, the choir master, he did a very good thing, didn't he? About 10 years ago, starting community choirs. He did the military wives. That was very moving. And lots of, he started choirs in lots of places. I'd like to end just with this one, which comes in from Jenny,

who says, I recently fell for an ad on Instagram, spent the most money I ever have on seaweed shampoo and conditioner. Oh, I've seen that ad. Yeah. Don't go near it, Jane. Really? Don't go near it.

Jenny says, I was very disappointed in the product, which left my hair feeling dirty and flat, even though I'd wasted 40 pounds. And I've tried that too. I've fallen for it too. The stuff that says it, you know, basically cure your menopause hair. It comes all the way from Cornwall. It's got special stuff in it, and it didn't work for me either.

I heard Feas comment that a sister mistakenly used conditioner as a moisturiser and her skin look great, so I leapt out of bed, put the conditioner on my face. It did tingle to start with, but my face feels nicely moisturised now. Many thanks, that's £20, not wasted. Maybe I will do a Stig Abel and wash my face with shampoo in the morning. There's a birthday treat. Now, Jenny celebrated her 60th birthday on the 4th of Feb last year. Can you remember what happened?

The 4th of Feb last year? Yep. Ooh. We were at the Barbican. Were we? Yes. Yes, it was a night. Thanks for coming, Jenny.

I'm glad it stayed in your mind. Well, I hope your birthday is even better this year. I mean, how can it be? How can it be? Now, look, we've got an interesting, and I've got obviously a serious, I mean, it's not obvious that he's serious, although he is serious. He's talking about a very serious subject. He's a journalist called Steve Croshaw,

who's written a book called Prosecuting the Powerful, which is really about just how tough it is to bring people like Putin, Netanyahu, al-Assad to justice. Steve Croshaw is our game. this afternoon. Fantastic to have you in the studio with us. Really appreciate it. Thank you. You are the author of prosecuting the powerful war crimes and the battle for justice, a timely book, which is out in paperback tomorrow. Justice is very much in the air at the moment, or sometimes you feel lack of it, quite honestly. Steve is the former chief foreign correspondent at the Independent

and was UK Director of Human Rights Watch. You've also worked for freedom from torture as well. And Amnesty International, correct. And Amnesty, okay. So a man with an impeccable credential I should say that on the cover of the book are three men, Putin, Netanyahu and al-Assad. Now two are still in power, one's in exile, in a luxury tower block presumably in Moscow. Will they ever face justice, do you think? This is, as you say, it's the question at the heart of everything really. And so I guess the short answer to all that is none of us can know for certain. I mean, there are no immediate ways of getting our hands on any of those three.

But I think it's worth dipping back into history briefly of like so many of the big conflicts that we've seen. It seemed nothing would ever happen. And for me, a kind of central moment in my own biography, my own life, but also in a sense for the storytelling of the book, was when I was a journalist, as you mentioned at The Independent, I was covering the Balkans, and I met Slobadoa Milosevic, the then Serb leader. The way that we met was pretty random itself, but we mentioned this fancy London hotel, and I kind of bluffed my way in different ways, sat down with him. This was 1992, the very beginning of the Bosnian War,

and I was just back from a trip to Sarajevo. And people had just started to mention the possibility of a war crimes tribunal. So at the end of a longer interview on other themes, I said, by the way, what about this? Oh, yes, a marvelous idea. And I said, yeah, but what about you, Mr. President, my you? And me, no, I am for peace. And that meeting was very memorable to me for lots of different reasons.

but I remember thinking afterwards, not only did he feel confident, he would never face justice, but I also thought it could never happen. And yet, if you like, quote unquote, only nine years later. Yeah. He landed up there. Just last year, within the past year, we had the former president of the Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte. He was trotting around Hong Kong saying, come and get me, if you like, to the International Criminal Court in the Hague, who had put out an arrest warrant for him.

Yeah, yeah, come and get me. get me, he flies back into Malala and sure enough, handcuffs are put in and he has flown to the Hague and he's about to go on trial there in the Hague. So we never know. To go to the three that you mention, Assad is now in Moscow, as you say, living in luxury, but he's disposable goods now. He has no value to Russia, really, so there's lots of reasons why. And Putin and Netanyahu, very, very interesting, both of them have had to change their travel plans in the last couple of years. He couldn't go to South Africa, couldn't do this, couldn't do that. That's all they've had to do. That's absolutely right. That's so far, but the same could have been said of Milosevic in 1995 or 1996.

So don't give up hope, please. Don't give up hope, really. And what it means is the pressures and where does the society itself go? So Israel at the moment, there's not great love for Netanyahu to put it mildly. Before 7th of October, of course, there was even less. And I think it's a question of does Israeli society come to that sense of actually this guy really should be put on trial, not just for the sake of the Palestinians who've died, but for Israeli society, for the stability, the security of the future. The same kind of journey that other countries have been on thinking actually accountability does really matter. We should also say that actually haven't Hamas also been indicted?

They have, exactly. And that's really important. It's not like either or. Of course Hamas leaders were indicted for the horrendous crimes, not only, but especially the horrendous crimes of 7th of October. and those terrible crimes clearly, they're so obviously very, very serious crimes. What is odd sometimes is when you get the narrative, well, they've done all these awful things, so therefore somehow the other side in a way that trumps. And it doesn't.

That's, of course, not the way justice works. A crime is a crime, whoever has committed it. Goodness me, though. I mean, this book was such an education because there are so many grey areas. And perhaps we could talk about how the USA conducted itself after 9-11 because that was obviously a seismic and terrible event. But how did the USA react?

Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? So as older lists as we'll remember, we kind of lived through that period although it's slightly slid into history and been forgotten. So, as you say, horrendous, the attacks of 9-11, so dreadful and so brutal. And the then-U.S. administration, their takeaway from that was, well, they've done terrible things,

so we need to go on what was called the dark side and how dark it was, of torture was just completely normalized. Things that the Americans themselves had prosecuted at the Tokyo Tribunal, for example, after 1945, waterboarding. That was a crime then, and of course remained a crime, but no, no, that's okay.

And again, first morally and legally it was completely wrong, but what they were so slow to understand, but I hope has now been accepted in the meantime, looking back, was it of course made life more dangerous. It made the world a less secure place. The photographs that came out of Abraib, the prison in Iraq, where terrible torture had been committed constantly, and people took the photos of it, and those got leaked eventually.

Those, not only were those shocking to those who cared about such crimes, but it also fueled violence in the years to come. Terrorists were born. Terrorists were born, exactly. Terrorists were born. And so that I did quite a lot of traveling during the, when I was writing the book, I went to Ukraine several times. This past year I was in Syria after the fall of Assad.

Amazing to people pressing for justice there. But I was also in Israel and the West Bank and met inspiring Israeli human rights lawyers and activists who were saying we need to have the accountability for these crimes because how are we going to be living in some kind of safety and security in the years to come? You know, the 10-year-old now who's lost both his or her parents in Gaza, what are they going to be doing in a decade's time? You need to think that you need some kind of closure.

To quote the chief US prosecutor at Nuremberg, Robert Jackson, he talked about the importance of Nuremberg because it could stay the hand of vengeance. And that phrase, I think, is so resonant today. A lot of people say Nuremberg was, what's the expression, Victor's Justice. Yes, yes. And again, something I learned from the book.

Of course, Britain and other allies, we did not behave impeccably in World War II. We did win. We were on the winning side. And therefore our carpet bombing of German civilians was not part of what went on at Nuremberg. And the Germans were not, they weren't in the dock either for their bombing campaigns. Is that right?

That's right. So it was precisely because of what you've just described. So initially, when the planning was first happening of, you know, the war hadn't been won yet by any means, but earlier in the war it was like, okay, this terrible, bombing raids, not just on Britain of Coventry, London and elsewhere, but in Minsk, in Belgrade, a whole bunch of Warsaw, lots of Nazi bombing, which took no account of civilians and therefore was already on the list. But by the time it got to 1945, more than half a million people

had died in the Anglo-American raids, most famous in Dresden, about 30,000, but Hamburg was pretty much as big, and lots of other raids across the country. And it was like, well, we can't really accuse them of those things because obviously the finger will then be pointed to us. So that was dropped out and you're quite right. The phrase Victor's Justice has been used often of Nuremberg and in some obvious ways like the one that you've just mentioned there, it was, but it was also a foundation stone. The defence worked really hard and there was some acquittals at Nuremberg. People often forget this. Were acquittals. What sort of people were acquitted? The people who'd been, if you like the pen pushers a bit. Now pen pushing can actually,

in its most extreme version, absolutely be like Adolf Eichmann, who was later, went on trial in Jerusalem much later. But he, you know, he'd never pull the trigger or done something physical. But he was responsible for organising. But more generally, people who were, yeah, they were around, but they weren't maybe directly involved. Those people ended up being acquitted. Civil servant types.

Right. that the Russians were never, I mean, what went on in Berlin, for example, when the Red Army got there, is something that people still find, I gather, incredibly difficult to discuss. Yeah, it's incredible. I mean, now it is discussed in Germany, in Russia, it's a complete taboo. The rape that happened during that time, I mean, so many, it was just horrific. And that was a complete taboo for many years. It was to do, to some extent, in Germany, German society, although there might be. much later a book that had been written at the time was published. And more generally it wasn't known. And then there was a great book written by Anthony Beaver about 20 years ago now,

the historian, who writing about downfall of Berlin, laid a lot of this out, including drawing on Russian archives, archives which would now be closed, but at that time were open up. So there was a lot of that stuff that was going on, but nonetheless, I say, Nuremberg was a foundation stone, even if there were things that you left out. Right. So let's fast forward to 2002 and the establishment of the International Criminal Court.

Who actually worked to make it happen? I love these stories. And in the sense, although there's so much darkness that we're facing today in many, many different ways, and you constantly hear people saying, oh, the whole thing is gone, it's all lost, nothing can be achieved. Now, it is true that we're facing a lot of darkness. But the idea of an international criminal court seemed utterly unachievable. It was first floated way back in the 19th century when the Geneva Convention started coming up, and the first Geneva Convention was in place, but one of the guys responsible for that said,

yeah, but they don't kind of obey it. We need to have enforceability. Well, the governments which had, just like today, the governments which had signed the Convention didn't actually want it to be enforceable. So that went nowhere. At different points, the idea was there. At the time of Nuremberg, and immediately after, and especially with the creation of the Genocide Convention, 48, which was due to an absolute obsessive character, Raphael Lemkin, who Philip Sands, as has written back brilliant in East West Street. At that time, it's like, well, if we have a

genocide convention, it needs to be enforced somewhere, so we must have an international court. But of course, all the powerful governments were not interested in a place. So what I describe in the book is some of these visionary types who often describe themselves as Don Quixote figures. One was A.N.R. Robinson, Ray Robinson, who was a law. student from Trinidad and Tobago. He was studying at Oxford and his fellow student, American Robert Wetzel, was writing a PhD on writing his thesis on the Nuremberg trials and both of them chatted together and said like, why would you just have one trial? You need to have the possibility of doing it for the future. Now that could just seem like student conversations in the pub, but they

both remained obsessed with that in different ways. Ray Robinson, A. Ann R. Robinson became Prime Minister and then President of Trinidad Antobago. And that's where you have the sweetness of history coming together, because as he became Prime Minister of his country, it was just the time when everything else was changing, the Berlin Wall was coming down. So in autumn, 1989, during the very weeks that the Berlin Wall came down and everything else was up for grabs, if you like, he put onto the agenda of the United Nations saying, we need to have an international criminal court. So he asked for that in 89, a few years passed, and then in Rome in 1998. despite the hatred of the US for the idea,

but it happened. It was agreed in Rome in 98 and then became real, as you say, in 2002. And is it now under threat because of the current American administration? It really is. So George W. Bush didn't like it and he came up with something called the Hague.

Well, it was colloquially called the Hague invasion clause. In other words, the idea, if you ever dare to seize an American for whatever reason we will invade the Hague. It was kind of just rhetoric in those days. It was an absurd, it was dark rhetoric, but it was never going to happen. But Trump has taken it way forward.

He's put on a series of sanctions on both prosecutors, on judges, and he's trying basically suffocate the court itself. Incredibly dangerous because this is the institution that's been created, and as described, Don Quixote figures over so many years went for it. It would be impossible to recreate if it's crushed. And for me, it's a sadness, obviously, it's dark that an elected U.S. president can want to destroy an institution, which is fundamental about the rule of law. But not only that, we've seen almost complete silence from the European governments,

all of whom, including Britain, all the European Union governments, were all part of creating that court. And now they kind of sit and go, yeah, and haven't managed to find their voice. Yeah, well, we're all operating double standards, aren't we? Sadly. Urshla von der Leyen, I think she, well, she's been very vocal condemning Putin and the invasion of Ukraine, but less keen on saying too much about Netanyahu. Yes, exactly.

Although it was sometimes almost exactly the same crimes. She described, you know, attacks on infrastructure, the starvation. Those kind of crimes, of course, were exactly what we saw later in Gaza. So do you honestly think that the court will carry on? I do think it can, but I do think it needs all of us to stand up for all of the countries. And, of course, voters affect what politicians are thinking in some ways as well. and I think that it absolutely can survive and it's interesting, you know,

heard there's a key former senior British military prosecutor who was also very senior in the court, resigned because some of the pressures, but he said absolutely we can. And I think when I talked earlier about how impossible things have happened, that's not just the creation of the court, but even as I began writing the book

and talking to very, very wise heads then, he said, yeah, but so the Ukraine war had just begun. and terrible crimes were being committed, yes, but the president of a permanent member of a security council, they're never going to indict a man like that. But they then did. They did. And they indict and they requested an arrest warrant and then confirmed by the judges, six months later issued arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and his defense minister,

as well as the Hamas leaders, which we've described as well, which is, if you like, less complicated. But the fact that they said, we just do what we do. do. That's the point. Justice is supposed to be blind. Look at the statue on top of the courthouses. The idea is that you don't look at who's committed in making your choices. You look at what has happened and then you go where the evidence leads you. So the court is trying to do that. And I think it's important. I hope that European leaders will stand up for that. Understanding not just as it's legally important, but as described that for the practicality of living in a safe world, you need institutions like that to exist.

Okay, and you also need people who are able and willing, brave enough to bear witness. Yes. To speak. Yes. Is that always possible? That is so, so important. I'm glad you highlighted that one because that was something which, in a way, was a bit of a learning curve, I think, for the International Criminal Court as well. You know, international justice, as we've just been discussing, is pretty new.

You know, in the 1990s was the Hague Tribunal former Yugoslavia, then on Rwanda, and then came the International Criminal Court, which kind of emerged from. those. But in a way, it was still a lawyer's thing, and they weren't really thinking of the survivors. But in the meantime, the survivor's voices have been incredibly important. And it was interesting when I spoke to the chief prosecutor of the court, and I said, who is your legal hero? And I expected him to say, you know, one of those names perhaps who helped to create Nuremberg or the courts and this or the other. And it turned out he did have some of those. But he said, my heroes are the people who come and stand and give testimony, knowing the difficulty of doing that is obvious to all of us, you know, the sexual violence, the rape, the killing, all of these things,

you have to relive that and be questioned about it, but showing that courage and having the belief that by my giving testimony, perhaps I can help first bring this person to justice who's now in the dark, but also help for the future to stop those things happen. So I think that's unbelievably important and those survivor voices and their role has become more and more important in the past 20 years. I think so many people this week just feel something approaching despair about how justice only ever seems to be meted out to the small person. Yes. And the big guys just get away. They just get away. They just get away. Whatever they like. I mean, it is odd to reflect on that. I mean, prosecuting the powerful, the title of this book, and I've been reflecting on that,

as you were saying earlier, I mean, this is, it's so horrendous the way they have been protected, but I have to say I do see parallels. I mean, before it seemed impossible, a prime minister or a president or a former prime minister or former president could be prosecuted, and now that has definitely changed. Equally, the Epstein's and the Weinstein's and all of their friends, they were absolutely confident, but it is, of course, shocking to all of us reading those email exchanges because they just drip, they drip with the entire, titledness, which I guess makes all of us feel sick to the stomach. And I think there are significant parallels.

Weinstein, of course, now is in jail, the Hollywood mogul, and Epstein died behind bars. But more generally, that's still a huge challenge. And I think it's interesting that those two things, those domestic crimes and those international crimes, of course, are different in some ways. But I think there's a real parallel of, if try hard enough, we can do it. And again, there were, of course, individuals who bore testimony that helped with those cases, which, you know, with such courage that they came forward, initially ignored and eventually not ignored. Yeah, I mean, absolutely huge respect to them. So interesting to talk to you. I mean, of the three on the cover, Putin, Netanyahu and Assad,

who do you think is the most likely to end up behind bars in our lifetime? That's a great question. I suppose I'd go for Assad because he has so. little political value. So the Russians could just say, you know what? We'd like this to happen economically. Please lift that's that and you're going to have Assad. But Netanyahu, very, very interesting to see where Israel is not a matter maybe delivering to the Hague, but will Israel also say, you know what, we need to draw a line under this. I'm less confident. I myself, I studied Russian and I lived in Russian. I'm much less confident that Russia can get to, but that same place, I hope it can. But I do hope that we'll see some of those brought to justice eventually.

Really interesting. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. For coming in today. Steve Croshaw, prosecuting the powerful war crimes and the battle for justice. It's a fascinating paperback and it's out tomorrow. And it would be a great gift for you if you are just interested in history generally. But if you know a student of history, I think they'd learn an enormous amount from this book. I mean, it's depressing, but God, it's informative.

If only that court was so busy, it had a backlog, like our courts at the moment. It is a court that you'd like to be absolutely stuffed full. It's been lovely. Thank you very much indeed for doing the podcast at a different time. I don't know whether or not it's had a different energy. You and I now get to go and Eve has to top and tail it and it'll make her late for, I don't know what Wednesday evening has in it. Nothing. Nothing at all. Jenzie Yoga on Ice or something. What was it?

Yeah, puppy yoga. That's what I'm going to tonight. Lovely. Okay. Watch out for the puppies. And we're back tomorrow. Thank you very much for bearing with. Goodbye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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