Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A little bit backed up (with Dr. Sian Williams)

Episode Date: March 17, 2026

Jane and Fi are back together and taking a trip down memory lane - hair bobbles, sun cream, puberty, and embarrassing photos that, thankfully, they’re willing to show to the team... They also discuss unwanted surprises, celebrity sightings, the manosphere, hair adornments, and meddling with the thermometer. Plus, Dr Sian Williams, presenter and chartered counselling psychologist, discusses her new book 'The Power of Anxiety'. Check out our YouTube channel here: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Recently going for it, you're hanging on in that. I think we're solidly motoring down the middle lane, just annoying drivers behind us as we go at the middle lane. You shouldn't hog it, should you? I find it difficult these days. Not to. I don't like the buzzing in and out of the slow lane. No.

No. At all. And I wonder whether, do you think, driverless cars, because they would have scraped the AI on drivers. who were just rubbish drivers. Do you think some driverless cars will just be shit drivers? Well, yeah, it stands for reason. Thought about that, but that's a really good point.

There'll be some really careless, useless, incompetent lane hogging, driverless cars, yeah, if they are using AI, yeah. And there'll be, unfortunately, there'll be aggressive boy racers as well, won't there, logically? There certainly will be. Can that be true? Could someone help us here?

That can't be right, can I? No. I'm sure it won't be. But let's just imagine a world where it is because that's daunting. We're sorry we had a day off yesterday, but thank you for the amazing emails over the last couple of days.

Much, much appreciated. And I just wanted to mention that we've had a couple of people asking about and singing the praises of the amazing Lisa Tarbuck who was never... Well, she wasn't... Was she a colleague about?

I suppose she wasn't directly a colleague, but we're both big admirers, aren't we? Yeah, I mean, we work for the same corporation and we loved her. So let's call her a dear colleague. A dear, dear friend and colleague, but a certified radio genius. Very much so. Absolutely no doubt about it.

And I can tell you, because I have a friend who's a friend, and Lisa's fine. Don't worry about her, she's just had enough, and she just wants to do her own thing at the weekend. For people who are maybe outside of the BBC broadcasting realm, and there are such creatures, Jane. I know, hard to believe. So Lisa Tobok was doing a show on Saturday evening, wasn't she? And long running, I mean, over a decade, I think. long, long time. And it was more parallel universe than show, wasn't it really?

I used to listen on the train coming back from the North West and sometimes it would just, it went to a kind of surreal gallop and took you to places you had never dreamed existed. And played music that you didn't think existed. No, I mean, but truly in a world of Anodyne blandery here was something exceptional, beyond quirky, that does a very disservice. And also she just had, and I hope it's a has actually.

I hope she goes on to do a show somewhere else, come in, greatest tits. She had the most amazing rapport with her listeners, so it was a proper, proper radio club. And you can find, if you just want to have a little bit of an indulgence in a Lisa Tarbuck moment, she did a fantastic, do you remember talk up to the hour once, that just went viral. And if you just type in Lisa Tarbuck on any of the social media platforms, somebody will have reposted it over the last 24 hours

where she does the talky bit up to the hour. She says something along the lines off, BBC sounds has spilled all over my kitchen. And if you were listening at the time, it was a proper, I just love you. You're so fabulously close to the bone on everything. Yeah. Well, she was a truly amazing broadcaster on your right.

She will resurface in some form somewhere. I hope so. But you can't underestimate the toll, even though it's only a once a week show, of being on a Saturday night. Because it does mean you can't really switch off on a Friday night, you can't really switch off on a Saturday, and you've only got your Sunday.

Exactly. And then everyone goes, oh, yeah, but you've got the rest of the week. It's weird. It's weird. It's different. Because you're off work when everybody else is still in work. So those days aren't, aren't as fabulous as you might imagine them to be.

But I just want to say, do people worried about her thinking that don't worry? Yeah, she's good inside of knowledge. On her own terms and the very best of luck to you, Lisa. Fantastic. BBC management are mad to let her go, though. Well, they are, but we've said that before about them. Mind you, don't bother coming for us. We're absolutely fine, thanks.

Can I just do some quitting smoking things? Some of which are faggans from last week. Incoming, Sue from Skippton. I'm listening to Tuesday's podcast whilst finding a U-3-8 recorder music library University of the Third Age. Very, very good at organisation, I always think. You asked about preventing children from smoking.

This is extraordinary, Sue. About 30 years ago, our then 7-year-old son was called in to see the elderly senior GP at our local practice. He introduced himself and solemnly explained to the said 7-year-old the health impacts of smoking. He then got him to sign a pledge never to smoke.

It made a huge impact, and as far as I know, it worked. I don't suppose a modern GP would find the time to do something like that, but I honestly think it made a difference to the chance of that little boy growing up to be a smoker. Have you ever heard of anything quite as insanely sensible? I would have thought the strike rate may actually have been quite low, but just to have been taken seriously at the age of seven and told something quite important. I think that's really interesting. Well, well done to that.

That's an old-school GP. isn't it? Yeah. That's what you'd call a family doctor. Yeah, definitely. And we used to have them, didn't we? Those GPs who properly knew generations of one family. And they would be the kind of people who'd come out. Did you remember the doctor coming to see you at home? Oh, gosh, the home visits. Yes. Yeah. We used to have a home visit. There was one terrible one. I had tonsillitis, and it was bad, but not super, super bad. And I knew that when the doctor came, I'd have my temperature taken. And when the doctor was fiddling, around doing something else or talking to mum outside my room, I put the thermometer on the radiator so when he came back in, the temperature

of about 42. So were you kept off school for longer? Yes. And I felt really bad. Yeah, well, I... Because they were suddenly ashen faced with worry. Don't do that, kids. No, don't. Don't. Don't. Do not. Actually, that reminds me.

I happen to be in an NHS hospital over the weekend and I met Vera. Vera, I hope you're listening to this episode, Vera was a very busy member of staff. And apropos of absolutely nothing, she said to me, you know what? She hadn't introduced herself. I mean, she was just getting about her business. And she just said to me, you know, the best episode of your podcast? And I said, what? Sorry? And she's, the best episode of your podcast was the one where you and Fee went over to see Jeremy Vine. And I said, that must have really annoyed you. I said, right.

Okay. Vera, I really do hope you're listening. It really made my time. day to meet you. So I'm glad you enjoy the podcast. She's a big fan of Times Radio as well. Her favorite Times Radio presenter is Carol Walker and she likes to end her day in the company of Carol, which is a great choice. So Vera just thanks for the work you do and lovely to meet you at the weekend. We went over to see Jeremy Vine very, very early days. I was struggling to remember that episode, but back in the old, old mothership. Vera told me it was really funny. Okay. Well, I remember sitting in his office because he had an office. He had an office. and he had some very strange turmeric protein shake stuff.

Do you remember that? I think Dr Sarah Jarvis had advised him to tape because he was essentially working through his lunch at our every day, 12 till 2 on BBC Radio 2. We're talking about Radio 2 a lot, aren't we? But no, he was funny. I mean, Jeremy Vine makes, he does make me laugh. When he came in here, it was actually when you were off on holiday

and it was me and Ryan Nika doing the interview. And we just got into the most terrible euphemistic, finar-fana saga about whether or not he was going to show us his penny far thing. But it was funny, actually, he did play a lot. Well, actually, you've told me earlier, he's coming back on, isn't he, quite soon? Yeah, back in a couple of weeks in April. There we are, Vera. What's he on in April?

The next book. The next book? He just does not stop. He doesn't stop. You and I could learn a thing or two from these people. We could. I know, and he's got his Channel 5 celebrity, what's it too. I know.

And I don't mind a bit of jazz. I admire a bit of jazz. I don't mind a bit of. But what we do with our downtime? Cleaning out fringes, taking dogs for a walk? No, I tell you what we're doing. I'll tell you what we're doing. We're having downtime. There's no shame in that at all. Absolutely no shame in that, Jane. Have you seen a woman of substance?

No, I haven't actually. I'm a little bit backed up on the TV shows. That's no way to be. We can give you something for that. No, I know what you mean. I've watched, I'm three episodes deep into a woman of substance and I'm enjoying it. It's a good old pot-boiler. It's a pot-boiling saga. It's a saga. and oh if you've got a funny email about a saga cruise have you seen yes

we'll get to that in a minute but but but if you're going to mention are you enjoying it yes is it well done no no it's well done and um it's um you just you start to care and it kind of takes you by surprise a little bit also over the weekend i did see the louis theroo documentary now have you seen that yes we've got one or two emails about that haven't we we'll try and get on to that yes maybe tomorrow if we run out of time today yeah we we definitely should just can you give me three adjectives to describe your viewing experience of Louis Thru meets the manosphere?

Oh God, I can't really get beyond frustrating, I'm afraid. Okay. I would add disturbing, annoying and pathetic. I just, honestly, there's silly little men and they're too tight. Everything's too tight. I was saying to Eve earlier, they're so, I mean, we were talking about camp last week,

with their funny little over-the-shoulder man bags as they strut about. Cross-body bags. What's all that about? Anyway. Yeah, no, we need to talk about it some more, definitely. But in an uplifting moment, this comes in from Gail,

who says message for Fee, but it is to everybody. Deadlock's back. So, season two, it's out on the prime, on March the 20th. If you never watched season one, then the best days of your lives, life, best days of your life,

are still ahead of you because it's just one of the funniest crime dramas I've ever seen. So get it down you, if you didn't watch season one and season two starts on March the 20th. Thank you for alerting me because I would have missed that guy, totally. Yeah, it's back, is it? And you really love that, didn't you? Now, let's just bring in Glynn, because you made us both laugh last week, Glynn. We've kept this back until now, not because you made us laugh, but because we both forgot to mention it earlier. We're so slick. I was veering down 5 Live Avenue last week

and I was stopped in my tracks when reading a review of Liza Minnelli's autobiography in The Guardian. It referred to an affair Lisa had with Peter Sellers. Not only was Sellers married and 20 years older than Menelli, she was already engaged to someone else, not to mention still in a marriage

to her first husband, Peter Allen, that had taken a knock after she found Alan in bed with another man. I'm pretty certain it must have been a different Peter Allen, but what a glorious image, says, Glenn. It wasn't our Peter Allen, our Five Live, Peter Allen. But it would have been fine if it was. 100%, 100 million percent. But thank you because that little note I saw that review too.

I did think, oh God, should I send it to Peter? I didn't actually, perhaps I should. I think he should. It wouldn't be Peter Allen of Five Live fame. Another great presenter, by the way. We're mentioning all the greats today. You've gone really weirdly BBC-tastic. I don't know what this podcast has turned into.

Can we talk about surprises? Yes, please. Yeah, this is from Anonymous. Now, just to be clear, Anonymous would like to know our opinion, and indeed you, you listener, what you think about surprises. To be clear, says Anonymous, I hate them. They're all for the surpriser and not for the recipient. I think that's true.

That is true. One person's surprise is the other. nightmare in my book. I turned 60 in a couple of weeks and as I turned the calendar over at the beginning of March, I said excitedly, oh, I've got a big birthday coming up, let's get planning, to which my husband said, oh, I've got some ideas for that. Cued jawdrop, eyes wide. When probed about these ideas, he refused to reveal what they were and it's caused me no end of anxiety. Well, talking of anxiety. Oh, the power of anxiety is a book out by Dr. Sean Williams Is she on the podcast?

She's usually on the BBC. This is so strange. Let's pull away. Yes, she's on the podcast. She'll be up in about 10 minutes time. Right. So seriously, I know a lot of people suffer with anxiety, so we'll have some good tips a little bit later in this podcast.

But anyway, back to Anonymous. For birthdays in the past, we've woken up. He's just wished me a happy day and then said, we can do whatever you like today. So you can understand my dilemma. I just hate surprises. I always make sure that I do all the planning for our holidays, days out, birthday trips, and I share this with him so we can be sure that we both get something out of the event.

We're both excited about what's coming up, the event runs relatively smoothly, and we can both look forward to it together. Well, she goes on a little bit longer, and I just think I completely hear you anonymous, and I think you do too, don't you, that surprises are, do you think it's right to say that they are all for the surpriseer and not for the recipient? I think if you know somebody so well and you know that they would enjoy a surprise and they would completely take it in the way that you've meant it

i.e. you're incredible and worth celebrating and everybody's pitched up and we just want this to have a huge impact on you and that's great. I'd say there's quite a low strike rate of that being the case. I wonder what it would be like one in ten? I think fewer than that. And I completely hear our correspondent. You know, there's a great pleasure in knowing your timetable.

Oh, I want to say that again. Yes, and knowing who you want to see and when you want to see them and when you're up for it and when you're not. And I think that surprise thing, I mean, I know just personally, I'd absolutely hate it. I mean, really, really, really struggle in the moment to even put on that face of delight. Well, we don't know that Anonymous is going to get a party as such.

It's clearly that something is in the planning. But yeah, we hear you. I'm really sorry. We completely agree on this. We're with you and I don't know whether you could just say to your husband. It's your husband after all. Yeah, just say the absolute joy would be in knowing what it is. And then I could really look forward to it, Brian, if I knew what it was.

Yeah, I'm with you. I would just try to say that. That's not his name, by the way. But it's such a wise thing to say, actually, about it being all. about the surpriser because I hadn't really thought of that before because it's often it's then the person who's arranged the party

who does get all of the attention and the credit and the oh wow it's just extraordinary and you've done so well and you've kept it quiet and you've really pulled out all the stops and that kind of stuff and actually yeah that is a bit me me me me me isn't it

I think it could be interpreted that way yeah Eve cancel the surprise 65th cancel the boat stand down the mariachi band I think we've investigated this and she doesn't want it

that's what we're saying you've already planning my sixty-fifth I suddenly forgot how old you were so I just went for 65 I do forget a bit are you 62 this year just thinking yes yeah so okay

I don't think anything big's required for that is no I don't think so no okay so we're still a good couple of years off anything monumental right I'll get out of that one group This one comes in from Louise. Dear Jane, Fee and Eve,

Fee unlocked a memory for me this week with her memories of the Burgosol sun cream smell and tanning habits of the 1980s and I found the ad that she was referring to but my memory involves a wiantropic and it's very coconuty smell my tale comes from 1983 when I was sitting my O levels

we had English in the afternoon we thought the start time was 2pm do-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da So my friends Emma and Francis and I was sunning ourselves in my back garden, which was about a 20-minute walk from the school when the phone on the wall rang. Remember that, kids? It was the school asking where we were and say that we were half an hour late for the English exam, but they would give us half an hour to get there.

Now the thing that had to happen, though, was that everybody in the exam hall had to wait for them to arrive. They couldn't stagger the exam just in case. So the whole hall was waiting for them to get there. and they walked into a sea of pissed off fellow convent girls sitting at desks in the hall waiting for us we sheepishly sat down in our places and the exam was able to start one of my friends actually failed

because she couldn't pull herself together enough and afterwards the comment was mainly all we could smell was Hawaiianropic because they didn't have time to wash themselves down now I'm sorry about your friend actually because that's quite a sad sad sad I laugh too quickly there.

Don't worry. She's probably over it now. Popping a little bit of empathy there. I'm back to laughing at people. So here we go. With the Burgosol ad, and it is. Can you describe it with your best radio description head on, please? Well, you've got two ladies in bikini bottoms with their backs to us perched on the side of a glorious looking swimming pool,

overlooking the Aegean, I'm going to say, and one is pale-skinned, one is darker-skinned. It's not fair. That burgosol seems to protect you from anything. says the first image, and underneath it is an image of the tanned lady, and she has, well, a sailor has swum up. A sailor? You don't get that many sailors in hotel swimming pools wearing their sailors' hats. But you do in Bergesol ads, it turns out.

So he's swum up to say hello to her, and the pale skin one, she's just had to disappear. Well, she's not in any way attractive. No, she's not. So this is, I'm just going to read you part of what's underneath in terms of the copy. The human body was not designed to change colour easily. Two weeks is not enough for a pale English skin to go a deep gorgeous brown, certainly not without help, the kind of help that Burgosol gives better than any other suntan preparation. So they knew a little bit, but not enough, didn't they, in the laboratory there.

And it goes on to talk about the different sunscreens that they've got. so one to screen out UVB rays and one to screen UVA so I mean that's not bad I think some of the others were only doing one of them but we get to the end of it and it says from the day you arrive

pale and one till the day you go home beautifully brown but even Burgosol isn't perfect if you want more protection from the opposite sex it's the last product you should use

good Lord right there we go it's just I love the little sailor It's just not that long ago, Joe. It's not that long ago. Oh my goodness, that reminds me.

I've now finished a town like Alice. And, well, when are we going to record that? When are we talking that? Yeah. When are we talking that? We are talking about that. Next week, you're going to do a recording with Laura Hackett and then it will go out next Friday.

Okay. Lovely, thank you. I'll probably keep most of my thoughts until then, but that's not that long ago either. And yeah, well, anyway Well, I suppose what I would say about that book Is that I did, I found parts of it quite moved I found the end rather moving

I just got bunged up again I found the end quite moving Anyway, there's so much that's so of its time And to our eyes and ears utterly appalling But it's quite a yarn, isn't it? It is a yarn And I don't know whether I want to condemn it For everything that it contains

Because A, it wasn't condemned for that at the time. It wasn't a book that was published and was controversial because of the racism and sexism that it contained. It was reflecting a society that was being lived by its readers. I mean, we can definitely have a conversation about how far reaching the readership would have been. So I don't really want to condemn it for that because I think it does tell us something quite magical

about how far we've come in quite a short space of time in terms of how we regard particularly women and money. And it's an extraordinary story of a young woman. I mean, very much like a woman of substance. It's a young woman who is really challenging the world's expectations of her. And I don't think we need to give out a spoiler alert because the whole point of book club is that we've all read the book. But, you know, it's not a book that then ends in the tragedy of the entrapment of

women. No. No. It comes good. Yeah. She does and it does and there's a really rather poignant final chapter which I did find quite so. Anyway, we can save that for the book club but yeah. Oh definitely. I can't wait to talk about it. I'm excited to talk about it too and then we can get your ideas for the next one. It was a really good idea to read this book. It's a very good idea. Was it yours? No, well we no rereading I think was just generally in the eth, wasn't it? And it was suggested by one of our lovely listeners that we re-read Rebecca, that's where it came from. And then somebody came in with Neville's shoot over the top and we thought, yeah, let's do that. Okay, well we won't forget Rebecca. Perhaps we could do that later in the year,

because I think that would be worth doing as well. Shall we catch up with the celebrity whose name we weren't mentioned? Yes, let's. They, she said carefully, seem to make friends wherever they go. Last summer, my husband and I, despite being, and they're quite keen to make this point, just within the lower eligible age range went on a saga river cruise. I do think it's...

I need to apologise. It's very important to make that point. If you don't need the handrails, leave them for the person behind you who does. And on the first day, I noticed a fellow guest who looked quite a lot like the afore not-to-be-mentioned celebrity.

A quick Google assured me that that person was indeed still alive and would be age-appropriate for the cruise. I engineered an opportunity to talk to the person casually, so I could hear her voice. I knew that if I heard her speak, I could be sure it was her.

That opportunity came after we went on a guided tour of a cathedral. So we heard her speak and complain about the guide, about the tour, about the weather, about her back, and indeed just about everything. So when I heard your two mentions about how I laughed out loud, as I was not really surprised after our brief experience with her. Needless to say, we didn't seek out her company for the rest of the trip, except I did enjoy looking out for her

fantastically, beautifully coordinated outfits every day and she changed every... Oh, she did it. And they changed every evening for dinner too. Gosh, just in that paragraph, I mean, oh, that last sentence, that's why I couldn't go on a cruise. I don't have enough clothes to change for dinner every day. I know some people do and it's amazing.

I just got it in me. I just... No, it wouldn't appeal to me either. Anyway, Anonymous says, please keep me anonymous, and what I have done. We loved our saga holiday, and we've got another one book for this year. We don't want to be blacklisted.

Okay. Don't worry. I mean, you must be only barely eligible for the cruise this year, never mind the one you went on last year. Your secret is very, very safe with us. Absolutely. And it might, I don't know, it's tricky, isn't it? I mean, it'd be funny of it then turned out

that there's a whole host of these celebrities, actually. We're not all talking about the same one. because I think sometimes the behaviour that's been described, it could be attributed to more than one person floating around in Ethan. Look out, 15 years' time, two very small women crashing around on an age-appropriate cruise, moaning, groaning, constantly barricing people. I tell you what, this person, though, because I've seen them on TV shows,

not in the too deep and distant past, where they did change their outfits, an awful lot and they were always accompanied by a different kind of hair ribbon you know that matched and stuff and that's what I definitely am never going to have Jane never going to have a box that is hair ornamentation on it it's just never going to work not since I had bunches and glass bobbles at the age of seven have I had hair adornments of you? Do you remember bobbles? Of course I had bobbles we all went through big tails with bogles but then when my hair went wavy. It simply didn't.

That was a sort of... Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. When your hair went wavy. Yeah, it wasn't curly until I was about at 12. Have you got pictures? Yes, I probably have got pictures of me with straight hair. So was it long and straight? Yes, I didn't quite love it. Yeah, it did. It was very conventional brunette, straight hair. What happened?

Puberty, I think. Weirdly made my hair curl. Did it? Gosh, this is extraordinary. Has it happened to you? Jane and Fee at times I'm serious it wasn't curly until it was I had a fringe until I had fringe

Yeah and now I can't I mean it just grows backwards I just can't imagine her ever grew forwards just really weird In fact we were sharing our terrible photographs weren't we with the team

because you've got one when you were pregnant which does it cheers people up I was pregnant plus because I should have had the baby that day and I had to come home from hospital

because they didn't have I've been an entirely legitimate I'm sure I've mentioned this before. I had spent a whole day flat on my back, uh, nil by mouth, only to be told at the end of the day, we haven't got time to do your cesaree today.

You'll have to come back tomorrow. But if you go into labour, call an ambulance. So that was relaxing. I had a really, really great night's sleep and waddled in the next day. But yeah, I mean, Fee, I was a large unit. Yeah, it was a, it was a perfect picture. Well, it was a spherical,

a spherical object. Yeah, yeah. And, and my embarrassing picture is actually my graduation photo, which, my mum insisted on having done, I could have done without it myself. And I've just got just terrible hair. I mean, that's the one that looks like either a King Charles Spaniel or King Charles himself. It was very, really, very, very, very curly.

It was a wig, though, wasn't it with Charles? No, it wasn't. It wasn't. No, I know yours. No, yours wasn't a wig. I wonder whether you were doing a kind of restoration comedy tribute. Well, I mean, it does look like that. It's just so appalling.

But, of course, the team here wouldn't know that I actually have curly hair. It is as curly as yours. Yeah. But I've never... don't let it go? No, I've not let it be, Curly. Since all of those days a very, very, very long time ago. Well, why don't you let it go, Curly? Well, because I look like that.

Go on, just for fun. No, no, no, not even my children can see me like that. This comes in from Jamie in brackets, female, despite the name, long-time listener, including from the old place first-time email, are very glad you've dropped the jingle. Oh, no, well, I like the jingle. I like the jingle. Yeah.

I don't think it's gone forever because I'm telling you now it hasn't. As ever, I was listening out of sequence. I try and make my jobs, decorating housework, etc. Coenside with your afternoon show. When's that on, corporate gathic? It's on between 2 o'clock and 4. Monday for Thursday, here on Times Radio. It's a completely free thing to the Times Radio app.

If you just get it, you can hear everything, including this. Yeah. And at the moment, I would defy another radio station to be better informed about world events. In all seriousness, we have a moment. amazing experts who come on and tell us things that we really, really, really need to be hearing at the moment. So it's a good lesson. I think you're right, it is actually.

Yeah. And it won't, it will inform you without alarming you. Yeah. And also, you know, then we have what's our kind of, we try and put a bit of light into the shade, don't we? So today we've got a feature about how sharks really like each other and enjoy swimming together. Yeah, which I think there's a PR agency, have just taken sharks on. It's a bit like when people suddenly start going on about kale. Sharks, lovely and friendly. No, they're not.

They bite your leg off. Anyway, back with Jamie. I get very annoyed when I catch up and have to go looking for other distractions. Anyway, I heard the bit about International Women's Day and the car manufacturer crediting all of the parts created by women. That was Ford. Do go and look at the hour

because it's a really good one. I would like to add my mother's name to the list. I guess it was the 1960s when she was reversing in the rain with my father in the passenger seat and she said, ought to have windscreen wipers on the back. My father laughed.

Yeah? And said... I can't imagine a man laughing. And said only a woman would think that. Well, undeterred, she clearly somehow made it happen as there appear to be rear windscreen wipers on all cars now. My gorgeous mum died 25 years ago, aged just 57, and I miss her still.

It would bring me enormous pleasure to hear her name Geraldine in connection with her invention, the rear windscreen wiper. have laughed so much. Well, it's our pleasure to do that in memoriam to Geraldine and the back windscreen wiper. And her fantastic initiative. Yes, let's hear it for Geraldine. And all female thinkers the world over. The Golden Hind have been in touch. I tell you what, you really don't know who's listening and you've got to be careful. Not that we've ever learned that lesson. God knows. Ahoy from the Golden Hindy. Hind. We just wanted to drop you a quick note to say a huge thank you for the

random, like so much, I'm sorry, this cold is still here, it really does hang around. Thank you for the wonderfully random and very much appreciated. Shout out to the Golden Hind in Wednesday's episode and again today. It has made our week. Just to confirm, yes, we do indeed run sleepovers aboard the ship. They're really popular with schools. We were actually the second museum to offer them just after the Science Museum back in 1996. And for this, and for the public this year, we've got a summer sleepover date on the, on the the 31st of July, if any of your listeners are feeling brave enough to experience life as a Tudor sailor. Wow.

It'd be quite the thing, wouldn't it? It certainly won't. Are you tempted? Well, not after seeing that saucy sailor in the sun cream ad, no. While we are a reconstruction of the original golden hind, our ship does have a pretty impressive history of her own. She was built in the 70s and sailed around the world in the 70s, 80s and 90s, covering more than 100,000 miles, which is actually further.

than the original ship sailed. The Goldenhine finally dropped anchor at her current home in St Mary-Overy Dock in Bankside in September of 96 and has been welcoming visitors ever since. At 53, she is listed on the National Historic Ships Register in her own right. Well, I just think I do really find that fascinating. Your observations about school trips were spot on, says Amy, who's the boss down at the Golden Hind. We regularly host year six groups and can confirm

that a great many of them are indeed larger than some members of our crew. Getting swept up by a class of enthusiastic pupils is always a very real occupational hazard, especially for me as I'm 4.41. Amy, thank you. Yeah, that was me the other day. I thought I was going to end up on a school trip. I just thought it was included in a whole crocodile of kids going down an escalator. Anyway, that's really good.

And thank you so much, Amy, for getting in touch. And I'm not sure, I think I'd be a bit spooked by a little. knight on the golden hind i don't know i've never fancied a night at the science museum i mean well oh no the science museum is not the natural history museum is it no it's not no okay clues in the title yeah so there wouldn't be dinosaurs prowling around no there wouldn't be no i love the idea of the night at the museum but i'm with you on the golden hind and absolutely no disrespect to amy at all but i just know that i would get a little bit queasy because there would be a gentle rocking wouldn't there

And you'd have to assume so Yes and I just I think I'd just struggle a little bit with that Yeah I might you know Go the way of the Portsmouth to Kahn Ferry Which wasn't pretty by the way Sean

Hope your trip went well Yes Yeah come in Sean Yeah let us know Let us know that you're all right Or at least in Kahn Tavey from Dorset says I'm a regular listener to your podcast

However I can't remember the name and send to The Eminus cleaner you recommend Now the Eminus cleaner Has just taken on a lovely life of its own. And in fact, we've got another email that I will find whilst Jane is reading the next one, because we've featured in a reunion party, haven't we, with the M&S disinfectant. It is M&S disinfectant and it's the green tea and bergamot scent. It is weirdly satisfying. I did slosh it about it myself on Friday, I think you're wearing it as a perfume now. I wouldn't rule it out.

It's actually really nice. Let's just deal with a couple of age-related. emails before we must get on to the guest actually we must it's now half a seven at night Claire says I'm 37 and I can't blow my nose it annoyed my dad so much when I was a child that he took me to the doctor and it's still annoys my husband then again they both favour a huge honking foghorn of a nose blow that you can hear from

next door I get by just fine do you though Claire I mean you must you must need to blow your nose at some point and Anonymous says, I've listened since you were at the old place. And I was quite amazed when you spoke today about an 84-year-old woman listening to your podcast. I said to myself, when I'm nearly 80,

why would I not listen? What's age got to do with anything? I live in Northern Scotland. I'm still cycling, walking, leading my normal life, and I love your program. You're both still very young. Stop going on about your age. I bet you have many listeners older than me.

I don't suppose you'll read this, but I love your topics and your program and don't think about being old yet. Best wishes. Right. Thank you. We do know your name and we're very, very grateful for the email. And yes, noted, of course, all ages, any age. More than welcome. Absolutely more than welcome. I can't find the lovely person who is having a party to celebrate reunification of friendships and involved was the M&S WhatsApp. So I'll find it for you tomorrow so I can give you a proper name check. We do need to say hello though to Mel. Having recently listened to your chatter about Jane's glasses steaming up and V being a large percentage face furniture.

I thought I'd take a look at the visualised podcast to sit with my own eyes. I have only three words for you, the two Ronnie's. And you are not far off, actually. No. So it's a very good night from me. And can I just do one more email?

You've ruined it. Just ruined it. I'm sorry, just got to... Yeah, I'm really sorry. This is why we're not the two Ronnie's. Because my timing's shit. Kate in Nottingham just wanted to draw our attention to this special

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No, you're going to receive a stunning rash If you had some They always call it intimate waxing, don't they? If you had intimate waxing followed by a massage, I think you'd be in some chafing pain. 79 quid. And I love the bit at the bottom.

Upgrade your bikini or juice string wax to a Brazilian. Or Hollywood. That really is the bit at the bottom. For another tenor. Happy Mother's Day. All your hairy ones. Oh, God. Thank you so much for this.

Kate in Nottingham. Anxiety disorders are the world's most common mental health issue affecting a third of a billion people and yet we still don't seem to have truly effective and easily available ways of managing them. That's what Dr. Sean Williams tells

us in her latest book written in her capacity as a practicing counselling psychologist. The book is called The Power of Anxiety, How to Ride the Worry Wave. And in it she helps us to understand this perfectly natural mental state, which which is good for us when it's working in balance with the rest of our lives,

but can be absurdly damaging when it isn't. Dr. Shah is here now. Hello. How are you? I'm all right. Are you asking me, how are you in these uncertain and difficult and very anxious times? Yes, I am. I'm just listening to your guest. Yeah. Before that you had, who was talking about the situation in Iran, and I know people were getting in touch saying, oh, you know, that's a lot. And I think we are living in uncertain, unpredictable times, and it can be,

hard to know what to do when you feel powerless. And when, you know, obviously for some people it's a lot closer, isn't it, what's going on? Because they might have people that they know in Iran, there might be from. Iran, there might be very close connections, in which case that's a particular level of anxiety, not knowing what's going on wanting to connect with family. But I think we're knowing about all the repercussions or potential repercussions as well. You know, they affect on petrol and oil and perhaps shortages coming up in the shops. we don't know, but with the Straits of Homer's being as they are.

So there are lots of understandable and very valid reasons why people would go, how do I manage this? How do I manage this lack of control, this lack of certainty? And what the brain does when there's a vacuum is it tries to find answers and it tries to come up with best case or worst case scenarios. So it will just sort of go through all the what ifs. And there's a danger that then you fall into catastrophize. or ruminating and typically do one of two things to manage it. The first is to just sink yourself

into news and be completely hypervigilant, which isn't always helpful. You know, we've all worked in news. Sometimes you need to step away. Sometimes you need to make sure, A, trusted sources, but B, you have time to go and now I'm connecting with the life I have, the family I have, the community I have. Or the other, the alternative position is to ignore it altogether. And that's not great either because that can lead to isolation and withdrawal. So I think how you deal with war uncertainty or how you deal with any uncertainty is you notice that it's coming up. Where's my head going? What's coming up for me in my body? What am I doing to try to mitigate it in my behaviour. Notice it, name it, just by naming it gives you a pause where you can stand outside it

and sort of be a bit more curious towards it. You can do something in that space and then act. And it's controlling the controllables. So it's do what you can do. And that might be reestablishing a routine. It might be connecting with your community. It might be doing something smaller scale that you feel you can control. You put quite a very, lot of personal anecdotage into the book because anxiety and you have at times been quite close mates, haven't they? And you do tell us right at the beginning of the book about an extraordinary episode where you fell off a stool when you were working for the BBC and the place that you were working in the situation that you were in just became overwhelming and you probably hadn't

had enough to eat that day and it was hot and all of the rest of it. But it's quite a telling anecdote, I think, because there's quite a lot of me when I read that. I just thought, oh, Sean, you should have just stopped. What's a terrible thing to have happened. So talk us through what happened and why you didn't stop, why you carried on in that environment? Well, listen, we're all broadcasters and we will all have experienced anxiety. And frankly, if we haven't, then we shouldn't be in the job. There is something that will come up for us. You know, when somebody says to you, Fee, right, you're interviewing, whatever, cabinet minister, prime minister, or you're coming When you're at Radio 4 and you're coming up to the Pips and you've not done it before and you've got to make sure that you hit perfect pips.

The Pips. It's been triggered. There we go. You know, we all have occasions when the adrenaline and the cortisol is going a bit bonkers. And I don't want to overplay the anxiety I felt at all. So the book isn't about me. There are a couple of little bits in there, but it's not about me. Anxiety is something we all have and we all need because it's essential.

It's a clinical necessity. It's there to keep us safe and protect us from danger. It's sometimes when it's switched on, when it doesn't need to be switched on, and that's when it's less helpful. And the occasion when I was sitting on the tall stool, doing the Princess Dan and Memorial fountain. Jane and I've got a thing about stools. We're quite often asked to perch on them.

Don't tell the story about when we were falling off one. Did you fall off one as well? And I had a few drinks. Okay. I actually wasn't. Oh, sorry. Were you on air? No, no.

We were on a jolly, actually, with work. Anyway, carry on. But we're all about the same height. It's a very cruel piece of furniture for a short woman. For a woman who's five foot two. Let's put that out there. And yes, it was a hot day and yes, I hadn't eaten and all these things. But sometimes as well, you know, your resources aren't enough for you to deal with the thing, whatever the thing is.

The feed of pictures to my feet that I was looking at that I was meant to be commentating on suddenly disappeared. and I had to commentate on pictures I couldn't see. So that was a challenge to say the least. Fell off the stool. I had a bit of a faint, given some custard creams back on the stool, away you go. Because the programme still had to be done, right? We still had to present a show.

And it was dealable with. You know, in the NHS I work with people where anxiety robs them of their sense of self and where they can't work and they can't go out and their relationships are compromised. And anxiety didn't affect me in that way. It is nothing to be ashamed of and it is manageable and we can work with it and it can still be present. And sometimes it needs to be.

And that's also okay. Tell us about dandelions versus orchids. Yes, what are you? Can I ask first? Have you done the quiz? Yes. So the orchid is the more sensitive flower in the room, the one that's feeling more things that I suppose might be a little less robust than the dandelion. I am definitely veering towards orchid.

So I feel the news in quite a kind of personal way sometimes. And sometimes I have looked around newsrooms and thought, oh yeah, that person. person over there, it's just flying off them, you know, just doesn't touch them at all, the fact that they're talking to someone whose child has just died. And I've always been very aware that, you know, I've been of a more sensitive disposition. And I was quite, I was quite heartened actually to read in the book that, you know, you can really self-identifies that and really be quite chuffed about it. I would be quite chuffed about it. Although I think we're all of a similar age where perhaps growing up, we were told not to be sensitive, grow a thicker

skin if you're going into journalism you can't be sensitive because things will get to you too much etc etc i think the most empathic journalists and therapists and are those who are most sensitive because you simply are open to more of the stuff the world throws at you but that means i think you bring a different understanding and compassion to it so you will listen and you will engage and interact in ways that perhaps a dandelion who's thought to be sort of more robust, you know, dandelions are those flowers who'd pop up everywhere and through dry soil and they're always there and perky perky. And orchids are much more, I guess, much more affected by their environment. So if it's the wrong environment or if something feels out of kilta, they feel it very deeply.

But on the positive side, the orchids are also more adaptable, more creative. more intuitive, they think and process stuff deeply, which is why you say you can feel stuff and you'll look at others and think, why aren't they taking this home? Or why is it not affecting them in the same way? It's because things will get to you more and that is also a strength

because that will make you an empathic, compassionate, listening, engaging person. I tell you what is difficult at the moment is the fact that the world is, of hard men doing bad things, bad men doing hard things. It's not necessarily because they're men, or maybe it is, but it's quite a brutal world that we're looking at, and we're looking at it increasingly through a lens of war.

And I think that kind of compassionate aspect then becomes incredibly difficult, A, because what we're seeing all around us, and this isn't about me at all, it's everybody, we are seeing some real desperate situations that as you've already alluded to we cannot really process as individuals. And we might not feel that we have anything in common with the people who are in charge. Yeah, I mean that is a really interesting point. I think the very business of being in news means that you are filtering the worst of what's going on in the world because you have to because that's what news is. And I think going back to what we were saying before, which is the importance of curiosity, connection, compassion, connecting with things that are meaningful to you that play into your values.

And that might be in your local community. That is why it is so important. And that stuff is still out there. You know, good people doing great things are out there. But at the moment, it feels like there's an imbalance because what we hear and what we see is. the negative stuff. And remember that the brain is primed to react to and look for the negative because we need to be primed for danger. That's why we scan the horizon looking for the next threat that's going to come around the corner. I just, in the past hour I got an email from my

daughter's school. We live in Kent, alerting us to the meningitis outbreak that's been happening there. You know, that's another thing that you can throw into the mix. But I also know, that there is amazing, there are amazing amounts of wonderful stuff happening in the area where I live and with people that I know that we need to purposefully, cognitively, sort of rewire our thinking to seek out the things that best support us during this time. And we might have to put more effort into it because the brain will be looking at the negative.

So it's what can I do in this instance to support me, my family, my friends, the people I love. So we're all hopefully capable of making those decisions. Obviously, when you're very young, you're not. And we have an anxiety epidemic amongst our young people. I mean, this is a book aimed at adults, but it could be read by young people as well. Yeah, and it is being, yeah.

And why aren't we managing to adapt to all of these new threats in the world in the way that our predecessors must have adapted to their threats in order to survive. Is there simply something different in the world of social media, algorithms chasing us down, our connection to the digital, that has really flummoxed us? I think there are a couple of things going on here. The first is not to say that previous generations were not anxious, but they might not have had the words or the ability or the, I guess, the freedom to.

express that with the stigma that's often attached to it. I think it was a lot more difficult to say, I feel this and can you help me? I mean, I know certainly just from my generation and you're a bit younger, but emotions weren't expressed at all and especially not in the industry we work in. I think there's, so it's partly that, it's partly having the language for it and understanding of it. And I just think the other thing is that younger people are facing different things to the things that we perhaps were facing. So there is, yes, financial insecurity. You know, there's a student loans crisis and will they ever get onto the housing ladder? There's climate anxiety. There's an interesting study in the book about climate anxiety,

actually, which might illustrate the point, which is those who are, those who have higher levels of climate anxiety, the young people, are more likely to engage in proactive things. to improve their environment, even on a small scale. So in other words, if you are feeling this stuff intensely, a lot of people will say, what can I do in this area? Even if it feels small, what small steps can I take? And that can alleviate their individual anxiety and make them feel a little more comfortable

with an uncomfortable situation. This has just come in from Guy who says, there's a 27-year-old chap. The discussion on empathy and emotional sensitivity is lovely to hear. I've always been somewhat ashamed of this feeling more emotive than others when you're told to be tough and to be insensitive. Tom is not enjoying our conversation at all,

ending up saying, now it's the patriarchy who's at fault. Hard me, for goodness sake. Well, I mean, the thing is, Tom, it's just a fact that there are more men in charge at the moment than women. And actually, there's just a very interesting passage in your book about Jacinda Ardern and what she hopes. to leave to the world of politics.

And she was quite often criticised and ridiculed for being empathetic and compassionate first. But that was her decision and her way to lead, wasn't it? Yes. And I think, you know, the former New Zealand Prime Minister who did face, obviously, COVID and Christchurch and all those sorts of things she had to face during her premiership. And she bought a level of compassion to what she was doing. And that really helped, I think, with people understanding that there is somebody here to support us through these tough times. I get what Tom was saying.

I don't think you were slagging off men when you were talking about this. I think it was more a case of it's the feeling of not being in control of things. Which comes up and that can be anybody who. Yes. And God knows, you know, I love a man, probably too many of them. Right. And that's something I'd like to pick up with you think. And that's a book I'd like to read.

If you have another hour. No, I don't. Explore that. Callum's coming. You mentioned Finland, the country which tops happiness polls. Now, why does it? Well, so my son and I went to Finland. We went to see the Northern Lights. It was a big birthday for him and a big birthday for me. And it's an extraordinary place. And actually, while we were there, once again, it topped the world's happiness ratings. It's based on a question. Well, actually, it's based on something called the Cantral Ladder, which is if you were to place yourself somewhere, on a ladder where the rungs go from one to ten, based on your best or worst possible life, where would you put yourself? So it's one question. And they ask 140 countries and Finland

has come out on top several years in a row. And I think it's, yeah, it always seems to be coming out on top. So I thought, what is it about Finland that leads to them being a happier nation? Are they actually a happier nation? If it's based on one question, that's quite hard, isn't it? Where would you put yourself on a ladder with 10 rungs? Are you a seven? Are you a six? Is it, were you a five yesterday? Might you be an eight tomorrow? I think it's more to do with they have a lot of nature and we know that when we engage with nature, our levels of anxiety can go down. They are much more engaged in a community aspect. So there was a study about if you drop your wallet in a country, do you have on a street? Do you have on a street? Do you,

have confidence that somebody will pick that wallet up and give it back to you. And in Finland, they do. They have more trust in their institutions than, say, for example, we do. We don't have much trust in our public institutions. The Finns do. They have media literacy. So you know we were talking about navigating the news and how younger people can navigate the news. They teach their young people how to navigate news, which sources to go to, how to best protect themselves.

That's a really important. So younger people are taught very early on. This stuff is difficult, how best to navigate and work with it. So I think there are various things that they do. Whether they're the happiest nation on earth, I mean, who knows? There's also a lot of other stuff that goes on in Finland that doesn't lead to a happier nation. And that metric can be quite binary and quite linear. But I think in terms of pursuing happiness, I guess the point of writing about this was to say,

If we're pursuing individual happiness, we know that the research suggests that those who pursue individual happiness are likely to be less happy. If we explore it from a sort of more community aspect, then it leads to greater happiness. So in other words, if you do nice things for other people, you feel happier and more content, which leads to a better society. When should you recognise that your anxiety is actually becoming dangerous to you or to others around you? I think by the time I see people in the NHS, and I work with a lot of emergency responders, so firefighters, ambulance workers, police officers I work a lot with as well, is by the time they get to you, they're often sick. So they're often ill and perhaps don't realize it themselves,

but something in their life has broken down. So perhaps their relationships aren't working. that it's hard for them to engage in the life that they love. So they've perhaps lost joy and pleasures in life. They're finding it really hard to work. There might be burnout. So there can be lots of different things that are coming in. It can be quite hard to notice that in yourself,

which is why I say you can't outthink your anxiety. You have to sort of be where it is and feel where it's coming up in your body and see what your behavior is like. If things have changed for you, if you're no longer finding joy in the things you used to, if you're finding it difficult to connect with the people you love, that is something where you might think,

there's something going on here that I need to pay attention to and time to really, really look at what it is and how it's affecting your life. And then I think it's a question of going, when did this start? How did it start? Who's there for you? Who's supporting you?

There are lots of important questions to ask. So what happened to you? It's never what's wrong with you. When I sit with that, it's never what's wrong with you because it's not wrong. It's that things have perhaps conspired against somebody and now they're in a situation where they don't know how to get out themselves.

And in psychology, you kind of are with somebody helping them navigate all that and equipping them with the tools to go back to the life or to live a different life but one that they deserve to have, one that has meaning for them. You're practising within the NHS. Obviously, we hear so many, too many stories about the lack of funding available and therefore the lack of places available for people to go if they're struggling with their mental health.

Do you believe that you are seeing people too far down? down the line because of that lack of availability, lack of funding? I don't know whether it's a lack of availability and lack of funding. I do think, I believe in a more proactive way of managing mental health. So if you think of it like a stream going towards a waterfall, what you don't want is to go over the waterfall and to be picking people up in bits of the bottom. because putting people back together when things have drastically fallen apart takes longer and is harder. I think if we can, and that was the point of the book, is if you can best equip people with the knowledge and the tools and the insight

to know what it is that is affecting them or making them feel in a particular way and how best they can live well with that and how they can, what tools and tips they can use when, you know, when they're trying to surf the wave as it is, then that is the most important. That means that you can protect yourself rather than get to the stage where you're burnt out and you're struggling. Yeah. Well, my little dandelion puff, any questions from you?

Well, I mean, people asking, can you just choose not to be anxious? You can't, can you? No, and I don't think we should. I think we need to have a different way of looking at anxiety, because it is, I think if we see it as something that is not our fault, it is there to keep us safe, it's just sometimes it misreads the room, sometimes it just gets stuff wrong. And sometimes actually that can be down to things that are quite, I wouldn't say easy to fix, but are less entrenched.

So, for example, I don't do well with caffeine. So I don't drink coffee anymore. I really like coffee. Don't do well with it. Sort of caffeine sensitive. There are certain things, caffeine, it might be hormones, it might be sugar, it might be certain things that you can tweak, you know, better routine, better sleep, et cetera, et cetera. And there are other things which are a little more sticky, which might go back to childhood

or things that you need to really look at. But don't push away your anxiety. Pushing it away makes it bigger. Outside, I was talking to a woman in her 30s who was saying, it feels like sometimes you're in quicksand. If you struggle in quicksand, it's going to pull you in. you need to just go with it a bit. Or the quote on the front cover is from John Cabot Zinn,

who's a mindfulness expert, who says, you can't stop the waves, but you can learn to surf. You know, the waves of anxiety are always going to be there, but we can learn to navigate and surf them well, I think. Lovely to see you, Sean. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. Dr. Sean Williams' latest book is called The Power of Anxiety,

How to Ride the Worry Wave. It is one of those books that's got quite a lot of little exercises you can do yourself to identify just how difficult your anxiety is, how much it's getting in the way of daily life, all the things that you could do to help yourself. So it's like an immersive experience book. So if you feel that there's anything that you've heard in the last 18 minutes that applies to you, it is actually quite an investment that book. It may help you in ways that you can't otherwise imagine.

Thank you. And we are back tomorrow. It is Jane Fee at Times Dot Radio. We do mean it when we say we love your emails. You're on great form. Yes, you really are. Keep all your thoughts coming. Congratulations.

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