Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A moment to think about little Brian's balls - with Curtis Sittenfeld

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

Jane and Fi discuss small talk at parties and school dinners whilst poor Brian awaits collection from the vets having parted with his manhood. Plus they're joined by the best-selling American author Curtis Sittenfeld to talk about her SNL inspired new novel ‘Romantic Comedy’.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Let the sun go down on me You know, I did see Elton John perform, actually, at the Queen's Diamond Jubilee concert, and it was almost comical how Americanised his singing had become. So he did Crocodile Rock. Yeah. And you just couldn't really make out... I remember when rock was young.

Yeah. All of that. But by the sounds of the very low quality of Matt Chorley's phone, because he went to see Elton John last night, he's come much more back to the English we're speaking. Yeah, you can croon in American, though, can't you? Well, clearly he has been doing. It doesn't make him less British. I

suppose it just means he's got a weather eye on the American market. And who can blame him for that? But I wonder if you and I started singing, whether we would sing in an American accent. Why don't we just talk in an American accent and hope to be picked up by a very generous American radio station who'd allow us just to introduce Eagles tracks and as people motor down freeways. What do you think? Yep.

KNBJ live. So there's something interesting. I can't remember the fact anymore why, I think it's the Maize and Dixie line, why radio stations start with W and K. Right. No, it can't be the Maize and Dixie line. It's a geographical distinction.

And I suppose it must be W on the East Coast and K on the West Coast. Why? Because it's WNYC, isn't it, for New York? I don't know. I'll look that up. Do you ever find that you had a fact once, maybe in your 20s and 30s, and you're very, very secure? You're in a warm and loving relationship with that fact.

You're quite committed to it. It's absolutely gone. Just deserted you, packed a case and gone off in the middle of the night. Also, it's now possible to disappear down ridiculous rabbit holes that you barely knew existed

thanks to the technology we have to hand. And as we outlined in yesterday's podcast, I'm having technical problems at home. So I'm restricted to watching Netflix until other things can be put right. Oh, but it means that you've joined me in The Night Agent. The Night Agent. I'd also started to watch a Terrence Davis film called Benediction.

Have you seen that? No. It's got Jack Loudon in it. I'm quite fond of Jack Loudon. And it's very, very sad. It's seen that? No. It's got Jack Loudon in it, so I'm quite fond of Jack Loudon. And it's very, very sad. It's about World War I. It's about Siegfried Sassoon and his friendship with Wilfred Owen. Yes, well, it wasn't really the right way to round off the day as it happened. But I then Googled Siegfried Sassoon, and, of course, he survived World War I.

That was what I was checking up on. And, in fact, he didn't die until I think it was the late 1960s, early 70s. Gosh, that surprises me. Yeah, it really surprised me. You realise these people didn't just disappear because so many of the, you know, obviously devastation in World War I and so many young men did die. He didn't, and he went on to have a very, you know, an interesting

but seemed slightly complicated personal life later on, but perhaps not surprising. Anyway, there we go. So that was what I ended up. It's amazing now, the stuff that's at your fingertips that you find yourself becoming quite invested in. And maybe that's the reason why you lose all of the earlier facts that you thought you'd committed to memory.

What are you looking up now? I'm just going to look up the radio station thing, i can see you've got some emails there a very long one there so i'll just find out why it's y and k okay and you do the email and i'll be back with you all right well um i just wanted to mention oh here's a picture of my research says ivy uh the new caramel twirl which says caramel flavored but actually has soft caramel in and that's my husband's current favourite. I love listening and I'm one of your night-time listeners so I often have to re-listen, not just because I've fallen asleep

but to make a note of something which lately has been book recommendations. I now keep a notepad and a pencil by the bed to save me scrabbling around. Is there any way you could give us a warning and also spell out the author's name? Sorry to be so needy. Well, you're not needy, Ivy. You're quite specific, but I wouldn't call you needy. Thank you for the picture of the twirl.

I don't like caramel, so I won't be buying that. No, can we just remind ourselves why someone has sent in a picture of the twirl? It's not because anyone gives a flying confectionary about whether or not you like a twirl, Jane. Why has someone sent in a picture of a twirl? Well, because somebody yesterday suggested that because you'd had a relatively challenging week last week, I ought to buy you a twirl. And I haven't bought you a twirl because I didn't think I liked them. But you did buy one.

And as it turned out, I did have a small bite. And again, back to you. And it's a bit like a ripple. I had to buy my own twirl, listeners. And then I had to give Jane some of my home-bought twirl so she could taste it to see if she liked it i was bigger when i started right do you have the rest of that email hang on sorry i'm i want you to read this one because i really like this uh it's from i think we can mention the name it's from oliver um in case you care

and oliver we don't we care yes we really care it took a while but she got there in the end a little bit about me says oliver i'm an actor singer and writer i'm based in leicestershire and the pandemic was an absolute car crash for my work and my personal life less said about that the better uh The most interesting part is that I started dating a guy called Ray in late 2019 in London. Now, it was quite casual. He was on a visitor's visa from the Philippines. We had a few dates and then he had to go home to the Philippines for a while. We kept chatting, but I didn't really think we'd keep anything up until he got back to London. Then COVID struck. The world shut down. I lost my house and my career in the space of a

month. I was classed as clinically extremely vulnerable, so was strongly advised to shield. And suddenly I was 32 and living back at home with my parents after years of relatively successful independence. Now, Oliver goes on to describe just how tense at times that situation was. Oliver goes on to describe just how tense at times that situation was. But he was the nice bit is that slightly to his surprise, he stayed in touch with Ray. He was on the other side of the world. He was trapped in a lockdown Philippines with no promise of vaccine or any adequate, adequate health provision. Should he fall ill and no family with the financial means to help him out. And he himself has some pretty extreme lifelong health conditions to deal with.

In the UK, he would have been locked in a cupboard and required to shield from the world. In the Philippines, he had to fend for himself. Well, we began talking every single day, even when there was almost nothing happening in our lives. It's a long story, so I'm just going to go to the good bit, which is that three years down the line, he still hasn't managed to sort a visa to come back to the UK.

I have, however, been able to spend several months with him and his family in the Philippines since the restrictions were lifted. On a visit in September, I proposed to him and we are due to marry in the UK in October of this year. So congratulations to you both. That sounds very positive. And I know from further reading of the email, Oliver, things haven't always been straightforward. So good to know that that's all happening for you. And it's extraordinary that during the pandemic, your relationship didn't just continue, because as you say yourself, you didn't actually have that much faith in it. It actually flourished because of the pandemic. And that takes me back to our guest today, Curtis Sittenfeld, and the two characters in her novel

who almost, because of the pandemic, draw closer to each other than they might have done. So I think quite a lot of people have that experience because you cut out all of the other kind of noise that is usually made by friendships, by coming to work, by, you know, members of your family and stuff. And so you could quite clearly see who it was that you liked and if you enjoyed their company, really, really enjoy their company.

So I love a pandemic love story. You know I do. Point number four, by the way, in Ray's PSs at the end, I completely agree. Sorry, Ollie's end I completely agree, sorry Ollie's I completely agree and very kindly, have you seen the PPS, we're invited to the wedding

Jane, oh are we, yes we are I won't give out the address but October the 21st I could make that and the little detail Anna Soubry lives a few doors away and Ollie's put clang and that's a lovely one.

So I think we could make it to that. Lots of very lovely emails about COVID and I'm sorry that so many other people are getting COVID at the moment. This one comes from Shona who says, greetings from Brechin. Beautiful, beautiful Brechin up on the East Coast. Now, is that the East Coast? Yes, it is. I tested positive for the first time ever

at the end of march i only tested because my 86 year old mum was with me she's 90 pounds soaking wet i've never heard that before but a more fit vital formidable woman you could never hope to meet three weeks later and i'm still enjoying everything covid has to offer i've slept more in the last couple of weeks than i have all year. My whole body hurts. My skin has been burned. Ick, ick, ick. Mum, on the other hand, caught Covid, shrugged it off and is back to walking 10 miles a day.

I'm very much looking forward to being 86. Well, greetings from us, Shona, and greetings to your mum as well. And I'm actually, and I'm sure you'd agree, very glad that it is that way round. Yes. Have you read the one from Alex who just says, just when we'd almost forgotten about it, my entire immediate family got COVID over the Easter weekend

for the first time ever. We had the classic dry cough, but the main problem was overwhelming fatigue and weakness and it hit my normally healthy and multi-boosted 78-year-old father so hard he couldn't sit up and lost control of his bodily functions. 10 days on, some of us are still having dizzy spells, needing short naps and suffering near total deafness. Having gone through this, I'd be very happy to pay for a COVID booster as I've paid for a flu jab, but that's not an option for my age group, says Alex. Yeah, we were just, you

were saying earlier that, did we have, because I had my COVID and my flu jab in October of last year, I think just before I started work here, actually, I kind of wanted to make sure that because I was going to be on the underground a lot, I'd be all right. And so I'm quite a long distance away from a vaccination. When did you? Well, mine would have been exactly the same kind of time, which I think is one of the theories about why there is so much covid around because we're less protected we are at the end of that kind of protection okay i would i mean i'll happily have another vaccination if that would see me through another very much so the winter uh can we chuck something out which is uh i think a problem that many of our listeners will identify with. This one comes from Claire and it's about the art of being sociable. Claire says, I don't cringe at the thought of a party and I don't mind

mingling, but when it comes to exiting a conversation that's gone on for too long, I find it excruciatingly uncomfortable. I've often wondered if this is a uniquely British affliction or a universal phenomenon. Perhaps it's why booze is always within arm's reach at social events. My brother-in-law, who happens to be a barrister, used to entertain us with tales of his head of chambers. When stuck in an awkward chat, the man would

thrust his business card into the other person's right hand, whilst turning the manoeuvre into a firm handshake, exclaim it's been a pleasure to meet you, do get in touch and then push the unsuspecting person away, backwards, before twirling to join another group, all while still clasping their hand. It was a lightning fast, bewildering, impressive feat of social dexterity that left his fellow barristers all feeling envious.

I'd love to know how you extricate yourselves from a tedious conversation at a party. I'm sure you've got some great tips. Well, Garth. Gosh, I think it's, I'm always, you know, when you get to a party and you just think, well, I'm glad I'm in a conversation. I'm just going to eke it out as long as I possibly can, because then you might have to move on and introduce yourself to somebody else. Didn't we, we went recently to, actually it was a good leaving do at our former employer and that was actually an evening where we were in a relatively large room and everywhere i looked there was somebody i did want to talk to there are also a few people i didn't speak to yes well i i had a slightly embarrassing moment where i was gripped manfully in a handshake by someone who

was terribly terribly pleased to see me. Did they think you were me? No, no, they didn't. But I just had no, I mean, I had properly, properly no idea who they were. And he had just started on the, you know, remember when, when thankfully the little ding, ding, ding went at the start of the speeches because I didn't remember when. No, did you not?

No, I had to ask you who he was. Is that the, oh, him. Yeah, him. Yeah. And he was actually an incredibly important part of it. You've been divorced a long time, P. Right. Like I said, that first one, love,

was a drink that got out of hand. Okay. Just listening to your podcast, says Naomi, and had to write regarding the two relationship minds email. I totally agree that this sounds like a very normal way to think. The classic glasses greener scenario. This was the query we had from a listener yesterday about the fact that they were in a,

what seemed to everybody, certainly to us, to be a pretty good relationship, but it seemed to be heading inexorably towards something permanent but they were allowing themselves to have the the old fantasy about what the alternative might be yeah anyway as naomi says as my mum has always said the key to a good relationship is a nice bit of window shopping but no trying on and certainly no purchasing it works and it takes all the guilt away and normalizes one's healthy curious imagination there we go uh naomi incredibly says she's had covid five times and twice in the last six weeks and the last couple of times i had different symptoms.

First, high temperature and sore throat. Second, the coughing variety, which I've never had before. Sounds like I'm enjoying collecting these experiences. I'm really not. The only way I know is because I work for the NHS and so have easier means to testing. Gosh, that's wow. I find that so depressing. That is depressing.

Because also I thought that you boosted your own immunity by having it. Well, that's always what I've imagined. Oh, lordy. But it sounds to me as though Naomi's had two different versions of the same thing and she knows it's COVID because she's tested. Yep. How peculiar. Can I just say that I think her mum's analogy, though, is absolutely beautiful.

Yeah, it is lovely. Very, very good and very easy to remember. Nothing wrong with a bit of window shopping. Nothing wrong at all. The letters N and A were given to military stations in America but K and W were assigned for commercial use. Radio stations east of the

Mississippi River had to start their stations with W and stations west of the Mississippi with K. There you go. Well, that's something I have puzzled over. Yeah, and that's solved for you. Well, sleep well, everybody. Those of you who are still with us will be just on the cusp. Oh, no, don't say that,

because you and I find radio really interesting. No, gosh, we do. Well, we do. Absolutely. No, we really do. Hang on a second. While you're hanging on, can I just say hello to Katrina? I won't read out your email, but thank you very much indeed

for what is a very perspicacious take, and you'll know exactly what I mean. And P.S. on the subject of Idris Elba. Last year, the receptionist at my son's primary mentioned to a couple of parents that he'd just looked round as a potential parent. Idris Elba. Yes.

The news spread like wildfire around the class WhatsApp that evening, along with musings on how much bling it was acceptable to wear at drop-off and whether it would look at all odd to continue casually doing the school run the following year if their childhood inconveniently moved on to secondary school. Interestingly, all 30 children in my son's year six class when asked the standard parental how was school today question gave their standard vague answer. Not a single one thought to say actually. An internationally famous actor popped into our English lesson

for five minutes, walked round to look at some of our books and said a few words. Small wonder that messages about a change in PE day don't often make it home isn't that brilliant i do remember the joys of communication on the often quite slow rather ponderous walk home from primary school and you would always ask what yeah how was your day how was your day and you were always reduced then to asking well what was the lunch um and my kids would occasionally and for no good reason suddenly switch

to packed lunches. I'd get very little warning and it used to drive me absolutely fruitless. But they were so certain weren't they, on Wednesday, that they wanted packed lunches for the whole of the rest of term. Whole of the rest of term. And it would just have been because there was you know, something.

Or something would have happened or some friend had moved to packed lunches or... Yes, or there was a disturbing carrot. Yeah, there was a funny rumour about worms in an egg or something. Oh God, it used to drive me up the wall. Yes, tough times, everybody. Check your privilege. We've been through it,

Vee and I, we really have, and we've come out the other side. Who was our guest today? Well, it was the best-selling American author, Curtis Sittenfeld. Now, she's written stuff like Prep guest today? Well, it was the bestselling American author, Curtis Sittenfeld. Now she's written stuff like Prep, American Wife, which was based on the life of Laura Bush, and an incident that happened to Laura Bush in her adolescence. And the incident is true. And it's if you haven't read that book, I really cannot recommend it highly enough. I think it's brilliant. Then there was Rodham, which is a reimagining of the life of Hillary Rodham Clinton.

Had she gone through with it and dumped Bill when I think she could have done. And then there was Eligible, which was her rewriting of Pride and Prejudice. Now, her latest novel is called Romantic Comedy. And it's about the relationship between a hugely talented, though not especially glamorous woman, between a hugely talented, though not especially glamorous woman, who's also very witty and is a TV sketch writer for a hit late-night American comedy show. And in the book, we discover that relationships between heartthrob gorgeous men and witty and talented women

don't always have to end in the way you might expect. They might even, you know, make it work. Anyway, Curtis had only just arrived in the way you might expect. They might even, you know, make it work. Anyway, Curtis had only just arrived in the country and she hadn't been able to leave the States for quite some time. I think it was maybe November 2019 I went to Australia, but since then I've mostly been at my house in Minnesota. Right. And how was it? How was your lockdown? What was the American version of lockdown like?

I mean, I think it probably even varied state to state and family to family like i think that my understanding and now of course you know time has collapsed and my memory has collapsed but my understanding is there it was less that things were like it wouldn't i think have been illegal in most cases to you know go to a restaurant but it's just like restaurants were closed i mean i think i think it was pretty isolating and pretty quiet and went on for quite a while so you could go out and stand outside a closed restaurant and then yeah you can look look inside an empty window and yeah feel longing for better times terrific um, there are better times now. And we've got a new book from you, Romantic Comedy,

which is essentially, in a nutshell, let's try and do this. It's about the woman who is witty and talented, quite low self-esteem. And she meets a man who is officially out of her league. He's a heartthrob. He's also quite clever. But it turns out he isn't out of her league. He's a heartthrob. He's also quite clever. But it turns out he isn't out of her league and lovely things happen.

It's not a spoiler, or is it? Is this the first time you've written such a genuinely romantic book? There is romance in your other works, but this is romantic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, I feel like Lovely Things Happen would be actually a really wonderful title

for an entire novel. Okay, well, you can go. Thank you for that. Just give me some credit. I know, yeah. Yeah, well, you know, I wrote a modern retelling of Pride and Prejudice, which came out in 2016. So I have, you know, sort of been

in the romantic space before, but this is definitely like a lot of the plot is chemistry and flirting and maybe being about to kiss and then not kissing and then maybe being about to kiss and actually going through with it and kissing and so yeah it's like the definitely the relationship and the courtship are the primary plot of romantic comedy in a way that they've been more peripheral in my other books. And front and centre is this satirical comedy show, which goes out last thing at night in New York. And it's based on Saturday Night Live, we assume, but it's called The Night Owls, isn't it, this version of it? Tell me about Saturday

Night Live, because we don't really have an equivalent in the UK. Yeah, so Saturday Night Live and I are the exact same age. We're both 47, born in 1975. And it's been just this sort of staple of American culture for many decades, where it's a combination of, you know, sketches that are kind of metabolizing the culture that are very political. And then there's also just like very silly humor. That's like bodily humor. It's also, it's the breeding ground for some of the super famous Hollywood stars, especially the comedians,

whether it's Adam Sandler, Eddie Murphy, Tina Fey, Amy Poehler, Kristen Wiig. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. And it's always sort of refreshing itself, and the cast turns over every few years.

But there's always a musical guest every episode, and there's always a guest host who tends to be a super famous celebrity. And in romantic comedy, and there's always a guest host who tends to be a super famous celebrity. And in romantic comedy, the sort of male love interest is actually a few times a season, the guest host and the musical guest are one and the same. And in romantic comedy, that's the case. It's a fictional, very successful pop singer named Noah Brewster.

Right. You really made me think, actually, about the importance of that guesting role on comedy sofas that would be the equivalent in this country the chat shows where you know all the guests come along and perform on the sofa and as you say a genuinely funny host could reap the benefits in terms of public perception for years and that's so true isn't it so jane if you think about russell brand he absolutely made his name talking to Jonathan Ross. And Miriam Margulies in this country has reached a whole new generation

through Graham Norton. But it's a big, big deal, isn't it? Yeah. And especially, you know, if you're someone who's super famous, sometimes actually athletes like football players, our football players will host like maybe once a season. But especially if there's somebody that you think of as a serious actor and they're hilariously funny, you just sort of see them in this whole new way. And it's so endearing, especially when they're making fun of themselves,

which a lot of hosts will show, you know, like a video they made when they were 11 years old, or like a baby picture, or just what huge nerds they were when they were teenagers. Very appealing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those humanizing details. But the details you go into in some detail, actually, in romantic comedy, it's the intensity of the atmosphere surrounding making the show, getting the gags right, making sure the sketches really work.

And any number of sketches are written and the overwhelming majority are just turfed out. It sounds like a pretty unpleasant atmosphere. Ha! Well, is it? Well, it's funny. I mean, sadly, I have not worked there. I mean, this is all based on research

and this is not based on first-hand experience. But I think it probably depends on, you know, who you are and what your goals are. Like, I think some people, it's this incredibly desirable job and gives you this springboard for an amazing writing career or an amazing acting career. You do routinely stay up all night, multiple nights in a row. And I think personally, I'm not wired for that. I like to get a good nine hours of sleep a night but yeah

it's normal and kind of ritualistic even that on Tuesday night almost all the writers and almost all the cast members stay all night and write the sketches which kind of makes it amazing there's so many sketches that have kind of created catchphrases that

are part of American culture. And like someone thought of it at three in the morning or five in the morning after no sleep, which is incredible. And our heroine in romantic comedy is Sally, who is, she's disillusioned. She's a divorcee. She is, she on the face of it has so much going for her, but she has a pretty low opinion of herself, doesn't she?

Well, I think she's sort of, you know, divided or almost almost divided from herself where she's professionally successful. She's been at the TV show for nine years. She's, you know, competent and confident. And then she had, as you say, she was married and divorced in her early 20s. And she hasn't really had many satisfying relationships since then so she and I'm not sure it might be an overstatement to say she's she's given up on love but it's not her focus and she also thinks okay you know average guys from the show date the celebrity the female celebrities who are guests but average women who work at the show do not date just define

average I mean this is I know what you mean. In fact, we all know what you mean. Right. But it's a slightly awkward concept, this, isn't it? Well, it's more like, this is, I think another way of maybe saying it is there are guests on the show who are, you know, the guest's host or the musical guests who are at the top of their game. They're household names. They're world names their world famous celebrities they're gorgeous they're very good at what they do

and then they end up and this is this is a real phenomenon at saturday night live they date a writer who's certainly talented and probably quite clever who maybe who feels like a mortal as opposed to an immortal god or goddess. But that is usual male, female, isn't it? Yes, it's usually the super famous, you know, like Pete Davidson dated Ariana Grande, Colin Jost, who again, I think is super talented, but has a longtime writer who also does appear on air, on SNL, in that he delivers the sort of fake news,

but he's married to Scarlett Johansson, or Emma Stone is married to a writer named Dave McCary. Most people don't, I don't think I think it's safe to say most Americans don't know who Dave McCary is, but you know, have seen many movies with with Emma Stone. So Curtis, I like to imagine all the way through this book that Noah was very much Chris Martin. Is that in the right kind of ballpark? Well, OK, so what I'll say is it actually I love hearing who people think Noah was inspired by. Because so people in their 20s will say to me, well, isn't it Justin Bieber or is it Shawn Mendes? And then someone my age, I'm 47, they might say, oh, is it is it John Legend or is it John Mayer?

And someone my age. No, Chris Martin is, I think, in that age group. Yeah, it might be Dean Martin. Yeah, I'm waiting for someone to say Frank Sinatra. Someone did say Richard Marx. I think that, I mean, I think that Chris Martin is actually, in terms of success level, in terms of demographic, and in terms of music, I think he's a good kind of bet you know but also there's

something about uh his kind of uh sincerity actually i suppose because no it does have an element of sincerity i mean if you'd if you'd written someone who was just rather obscenely good at everything and facetious and stuff the romance wouldn't really have worked. Yeah, yeah. And I do think, I mean, part of the kind of initial, like, realizing they have misapprehensions about each other is Sally thinking, okay, you're really famous, but you're really cheesy and corny, and I would never voluntarily listen to your music. And then she kind of has this realization,

I've only ever heard your three most famous songs, like when I'm lying in the chair at the dentist's office and are walking through a department store. And in fact, I don't know that much about your music. But I think that Chris Martin is a good example where I feel like there are people who would probably say, oh, like he's so corny. And I think I think he's really talented. Yes. Cute. Cute.

A handsome man. Lovely upper arms. I think we've referenced them before um there's a lovely detail in the book where um one of his best his best known song noah's best known song is making love in july but it transpires that he when he recorded it he'd never made love in july or at any other time um because he was he was really quite young when he made the song it's that sort of detail that makes it all rather genuinely sweet and, I don't know, strangely believable, weirdly. Well, I do, I think that, you know,

those of us who are not celebrities sometimes can make the mistake of almost feeling as if celebrities exist only for us to kind of observe when they're in the public eye, and they don't exist the rest of the time or they don't you know tie their shoes or brush their teeth or something but it's like everybody has different sides to them and i think you know all all celebrities have a private self or i'm sure they all have like little vulnerabilities and little secrets that they

don't just make into anecdotes on talk shows. I'd love to talk about this book all day, but we won't. We'll come back in a moment. We'll talk about some of your others. But just to say that actually, there's some lovely, romantic email exchanges between the couple, which would only I guess have been possible in the pandemic. So in a way, the pandemic helped you write this book. Would that be fair? I mean, well, I think I think I wrote this book as an escape from the pandemic. Like I think I felt like I want to be happier. I want to have fun. And then I thought, if I write a book that's set in the world of comedy

mashed up against two people falling in love, if that doesn't make me happier, then nothing ever will. But it did. It worked. I wrote my own escape from the pandemic. I was just telling Curtis Sittenfeld something there, which probably shouldn't be broadcast necessarily. No, I think that's all right. No, we were just talking.

That's in the public knowledge. We're just talking off air about how it tends to be affluent British people who become very successful pop stars. And often when they become very successful pop stars, it's almost disguised that they're from that kind of background because obviously apart from anything else, you can't hear their accent when they become very successful pop stars, it's almost disguised that they're from that kind of background because obviously apart from everything else, you can't hear their accent when they sing. So Curtis has been surprised that Ed Sheeran

is actually from quite good stock. I mean, impeccably middle class. The truth is, I think this is true across the board, certainly in the US, including for writers and I myself. I mean, I, you know, grew up in, I would say, like an upper middle class family. Like I had the privileges of an excellent education. So it would be very disingenuous for me to be like,

I've never heard of such a thing. But I think, I do think many, I mean, partly going into the arts is risky and unstable. And I think if you have a college education or university education or you don't have enormous debt, you're more likely to kind of feel like that's a risk I can take. Or, you know, maybe I can go back to my parents' house if it doesn't all work out. So it's I do think it's there's a higher proportion of, you know, people who come from privileged backgrounds in the arts than we sometimes acknowledge. Yeah, I think it's a real, as you're being very honest, I mean, you are definitely cushioned from the possibility of failure, if you can pop back to mum, if it all

goes belly up. That's always supposing she'll have you, of course. I mean, you're very lucky if she will. Let's talk about, Rodham is your book, a reimagining of the life of Hillary Clinton, if she hadn't stuck with Bill Clinton. And she's on our mind, she's Reimagining of the Life of Hillary Clinton if She Hadn't Stuck with Bill Clinton. And she's on our mind. She's actually on one of the monitors in the studio right now because she's in Northern Ireland and giving a whole host of interviews. And she's actually a very significant figure.

I think she's very closely involved with Northern Ireland generally after the peace process. She's the Chancellor of the university there. She really does, you know, do good work. But in your book, Rodham, you take her on a journey that she might have gone on had she called time on the relationship did you do you have to seek her permission for something like that you do not have to seek her permission did you did you contact her

or attempt to contact no you know I wondered if I should send her a copy of the book and then I thought the book is getting enough attention that if she if she wants a copy she can acquire it I mean in a way I felt like she shouldn't have to pay for it but I also because it came out in the pandemic I think I probably could have gotten an address to send it to her office but I thought she's probably not going to her own office and it seemed a little bit aggressive to send it to her house. And so I just erred on the side of not doing it. And I have never had contact with her. Nothing.

And don't anticipate that I will. Yeah. I think you're probably right not to anticipate contact. You write about very busy places in quite a lot of your books. So you write about school in prep and in American Wife. That's very much about the White House. Rodham is about the Democratic Party. But, you know, it's a very isolating existence being a writer. So I wonder whether

you kind of write your own camaraderie. Is that part of the appeal sometimes? That's actually a very interesting observation. I mean, I've heard, I think that the writer Anne Patchett once said something that was like, your writing is like the friend that you have tea with in the afternoon. And so I do feel almost like my books keep me company, sort of the book itself more than the characters within the book or the setting within the book. But I also think as a writer, setting and place are very important to me just because that's so it matters so much like to a real person's life where you live or who you interact with on a daily basis like that's I mean that's how our lives are sort of defined yeah that's very good advice so you should write a book you'd read

without question yeah and not only that you should write you should write the book that you wish someone else would write and especially if they haven't done it. If they have done it, just read it. But if they haven't done it, you might have to. Yeah, okay. So what sort of is your view of someone who just thinks, I'll just churn out a thriller because that's what everybody else is doing and I'll have a racy female lead who's an international assassin

and we'll take it from there? I mean, the thing that I say to my children more often than... This is Jane's synopsis. That's mine. Oh, I was going to say, the thing that my... I am that person. My children, more often than anything else, is different people are different.

And so it's like there is an appetite for everything. I mean, you can be so many different kinds of writer and you can be so many different kinds of writer and you can be so many different kinds of reader. And I feel like the more the merrier. I don't think that people should only write or read in one way. That would be so boring. You have taken these characters from real life. So American Wife is about the life of Laura Bush

and then Rodham is about Hillary Clinton. So Melania Trump, I mean, you Rodham is about Hillary Clinton. So, Melania Trump, I mean, you must have thoughts. Absolutely not. Oh, come on, Curtis. Never, not until the end of time. Not if you told me that's the only, no, definitely not. Because, I mean, partly, I think that I have to feel some identification with or some compassion for a character and or you know maybe some yeah and I don't I'm not I'm not interested in Melania's inner life I'm not interested in I mean I'm not interested in in sort of how the world looks to her and I'm not I wouldn't want to spend

my precious time imagining being married to Donald Trump. So 100% no, never. But the theme is very much throughout those books of women being overlooked, isn't it? Their talents being overlooked. And no woman is harmed or raped or assaulted or killed in your books. But it's a very strong feeling by the time you put a Curtis Sittenfeld down that there is an injustice to the world and I wonder how frustrating it is for you to uh almost have to keep returning to that theme because it's not a solved problem is it I mean it's definitely not a solved problem I I think that um you know one thing I'm interested I mean there's I'm interested in everything like to do

with human nature and sort of building a life. And specifically, like with American Wife, it's sort of like, you know, you can make your own choices. But then once you, if you're married to someone else, they make their choices. And then things that are not exactly choice, you know, just lives unfold or one thing leads to another that you can't always anticipate. So I do think I'm interested. I mean, definitely issues of like gender and, you know, sexism and equity and inequity. And then also, I think I'm interested in sort of like fame and proximity and how we all make our lives because those things are so confusing and how we get to be happy which i think you write yeah have you have you figured that out how do we get to be happy well i'm always happy when i see you've got a new book out curtis there we are what a wonderful

slick way to end the interview um what are you working on now oh my goodness i i mean i'm basically reading i'm reading a book right now called The Late Americans by someone named Brandon Taylor. I'm more into reading than writing. I don't believe you. I think you've got an idea. Oh, I always have ideas. Give us a vague idea.

Actually, the last thing I tried to write, which was like a few months ago, truly, was a short story about a woman who's sort of a social media ghost for a celebrity meaning writes the person's instagram post yeah that was curtis sittenfeld and i actually think she's probably about 75 000 words into that book she just didn't want to quite acknowledge that she was no but it's such a good idea so the social media ghost i think we best know in this country because of the extraordinary rebecca vardy colleen rooney case i think that's made it to the states that particular well it may

well i would imagine it's exactly the kind of drama that if it was two american wags would have made it over here yeah so i mean i don't mean to sound like I'm from the Middle Ages and not understanding in the ways of the social media, but I was quite surprised, Jane, that you would have accounts that were entirely populated by other people. And I do remember thinking, but isn't that just double the work? Because you've still got to take the picture, haven't you, and tell somebody that something's happened to you.

Yeah. And then you've got to send it to them for them to post as you. Why don't you just post as you? Just post it. It just seems so much easier. Because it only means going like that, doesn't it? Exactly. You would have thought you'd be able to do it. Perhaps some celebrities are simply, well, I guess it's about,

what's the word, curating your image. Yes. Making sure that only the approved images go through. Probably. But somebody else perhaps might be in a better position than you to judge which are the so-called right ones. I don't know. It's well beyond my wildest imagination. Yes, although I think if that case proved anything,

it was proof that some curation is better than others. So you might be wise to just stay within your own profile. Right. Okay. Well, I cut, you know what? Although it was a real saga,

I can't now remember who emerged triumphant. Rebecca Vardy lost. She lost. Okay. That's interesting. So our Colleen was the, was proved to be right in the right. Okay.

Well, I guess I should remember, shouldn't I? But I don't. It's very telling. Yeah, it is very telling. Somebody wrote to us a while ago, and I've been trying to find the email, and I apologise. So do write in again if you'd like a shout-out and if that was the reason why you wrote in in the first place.

To say, could we just give a little bit of a pet update at the end of the podcast? And it's a prescient day to mention this. Oh, it's an important day, isn't it? Yeah. Brian is having his bits. Brian is having his little balls taken off. Hang on. I mean, are they relatively little

or are they of average size? I know it doesn't matter anymore because they've ceased to be. Brian has turned out to be a very, very svelte cat and Barbara is a little bit of a tub. And so Brian's testicular action

have looked rather large. Relative to the rest of him. Yep, I think it will be more in keeping with his svelte look to actually not have any. Right. Well, he hasn't got any anymore. I hope it feels the same way. So that's where Brian is today. But I thought it was rather lovely.

Actually, I haven't asked you about your Dora for months. No, but I know when you rang up the vet to check on what time you could collect Brian, he was referred to as Brian Glover. And it is quite funny, isn't it? It just is because I just hadn't really... I don't... I mean, obviously, anthropomorphise all of my pets. Regular listeners will know that, but I don't think that they're actually related to me.

So I'm just slightly taken by surprise when the lovely receptionist said, Are you calling for Brian Glover? It just seems wrong. Well, you've done the right thing. It wasn't wrong at all because as kittens grow up things start to happen, don't they?

So I think you've absolutely cut him off in his prime and nothing, no unfortunate incident will now occur. Is Dora doing okay? She was pretty unpleasant to the guy who came about the TV dish this morning.

So actually, he was a very nice bloke. He said, oh, I'm thinking of getting a cat. At which point, she just snarled at him. So he said,

oh, but not that cat. I said, no, no. Dora, she's very particular. It's not just you she doesn't like. She doesn't like anybody. But she is enjoying The Night Agent

on Netflix. She took a bit of an interest in that last night because I think I disappeared down that rabbit hole because I think you'd advise me to look at Night Agent or had you said took a bit of an interest in that last night because I think I disappeared down that rabbit hole because I think you'd advise me to look at Night Agent. Or had you said you had to give up on it? I had to give up on it.

And I was a little bit, well, I feel bad that you've started it. Well, I don't think I'm going to go much further. OK. It is the one thing I will say for The Night Agent. It is a series you can leave halfway through and it doesn't bother you that you do it. Well, there's no emotional commitment. Not really. No. Well, no, no never mind there's no point asking it. I mean there's so

much of that stuff out there isn't there where you know conspiracies and who's on the good side who might be secretly bad or pretending to be good or the people who are bad are actually good and in the end you lose the will to live, don't you? Yeah, and they're quite often set in Washington, so they can just do that panning drone shot of the White House and then everything else is filmed in a warehouse somewhere west of Missouri. And they're always featuring, when they come up,

the static kind of shot advertising them. I'm going to do this for you and you can describe it. It's a man doing that. Yeah, he's just standing waiting to run. He is. He's mid-run and that's it. And you think, oh, action, action, here we go. So, yeah, I wouldn't do The Night Agent.

I would highly recommend Beef on Netflix, which is a very, very good American, Korean drama about road rage. Right. It's very, very funny, road rage. Right. It's very, very funny, dark kind of humour. I haven't got to the end of that yet, so it might have gory bits at the end in which case I'd have to rescind my approval.

No, especially not for our late night listeners. They won't want any of that. No. And can I just say tomorrow, would it be all right if we talk about Asma Mir's memoir? Yes, absolutely. Because she has written her first book and it's out in May

and I've just finished reading it and it is glorious, Jane. It is glorious. Can you bring it in so I can have a look? Very much so. I didn't get a copy. Bring it in tomorrow and we'll talk about it. Let's just have a little moment where we talk about or think about, I'm sorry,

little Brian's balls. I wonder where they put them. Did you ask for them to return home? To make a signature bit of jewellery? It's not like your tonsils. I don't think you get the option to keep them. No. But I'll ask.

Well, don't ask on my behalf, necessarily. But also, if I ask for Brian's balls, I'll have to ask for Barbara's ovaries. I don't want them. That's Thursday's veterinary treat. What a week in the Glover household, everybody. Well, I think everyone will rest easy after that. Good night. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us. And we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I know, sorry.