Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A multi-purpose royalspert - with Gyles Brandreth

Episode Date: December 8, 2022

Gyles Brandreth joins Jane on Fi to discuss his podcast 'Something Rhymes With Purple' with Susie Dent, and it's perfectly timed on the day that Harry and Meghan's Netflix documentary dropped. In the meantime, Jane's still attempting to predict the outcome of England's World Cup match, and Fi's got a handbag full of used turkey... If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Something wonderful happened today in the Palace of Westminster. And let's be honest, there's a lot of bad stuff coming out of the Houses of Parliament these days.

But today, something of import occurred in the chamber. And I just want everyone to listen now. Sit tight and listen to, I think I've read it, the former Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, was talking. And it was in a debate about plans to cut BBC local radio services. Let's join Mr Macdonald as he comes to the climax

of his oratory. I just quote finally from just another broadcaster most people will recognise, Fee Glover, if you remember, when she's been a prominent broadcaster over the years. And when she was interviewed recently on the media show, a oedd y rhan fwyaf o bobl yn ei gwybod, Ffee Glover, os ydych chi'n cofio, pan oedd hi'n wedi bod yn brofenant yn ystod y flwyddynau. Pan oedd hi'n cael ei gyflwyno yn ddiweddar ar y sioe cymdeithasol, fe ddywedodd mai ddim wedi bod yn amser mwy bwysic i ddysgu

wybodaeth i gael rhwydwaith adnoddau lleol byw. Fe ddywedodd, os na allwch chi ddweud y stori o bobl o'ch amgylch chi, sy'n gwybod a'u gweld bob dydd, yna gallai cael tell the story of people around you who you know and see every day then into that void can fall really unpleasant things and once that part of the forest has been cut down it won't ever grow again and she said finally so what do I think of these plans it's bonkers and I agree with her completely and I'm hoping the BBC is listening and I'm hoping that they will think again. Well, I couldn't have wished for a better way to end the week, Jane. And thank you for introducing that so beautifully. What was the phrase you used? The climax of John McDonnell's oratory. No, fair enough. Also, I need to say it wasn't one inaccuracy there, wasn't there?

What? Because you didn't make the statement to the media show no i did it on feedback it was on the very famous feedback on radio 4 yeah my big beef with them has always been where do you go to complain about feedback nowhere there's nowhere to go yeah i was always very happy with that which is why i'm repeating it now perhaps makes less sense here anyway um i think you made it it was an incredibly good point and i'm glad that it's come to wider attention sometimes it is quite funny isn't it j Jane, when you slightly cross over a line, because obviously you and I just report on things.

We don't ever expect to be part of a story itself. But that one about local radio, it is important. You and I started in local radio, didn't we? And so to imagine that as young radio journalists that will not be available to you ever again. It's actually quite a big thing. It is a tragedy. But your other point that John quoted, that's also really, it's not really something I thought about.

And I do think that's really important as well. You need to know what's going on down your street, in your council, on the local transport network, in the next town. You do need to know this stuff and you need to know it from a trusted source. On with the podcast. Welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. And me, Fee Glover. Now, only one story in town today and our guest was more than up to the job of tackling

a big debate. Oh my word. So just by coincidence, really, we had Giles Brandreth in as our guest. We had him booked. We had him booked because he was going to talk about his whopper of a book about Queen Elizabeth II and also his enormously successful podcast, Something Rhymes with Purple. But in the end, he was just used as a sort of, well, across the media, in fact, as is so often the case, he's being used as a multi-purpose royal spurt

to talk about all aspects of uh the Windsor household and their shenanigans of one sort or another and today it was the turn of Mr Harry and Miss Megan to move back into the spotlight yep I sometimes think when you ask a question of Giles Brandreth it's a bit like that moment where you take a washer off a leaky tap and there is no combination of your hands that can actually stem the flow and you have to call an emergency plumber. We asked him one very, very simple question. It really was.

And eight minutes later, we got to ask another. We were especially pleased to be joined by Giles on Today of All Days. Today of All Days, because it is three months today since Her Late Majesty died. Isn't it? And I was just reflecting coming in here how extraordinary the atmosphere was in the ten days after her death. I don't know if either of you covered the funeral at all, but I was working for the BBC at the time. the funeral at all, but I was working for the BBC at the time, and so I had 10 days of going every day down to Buckingham Palace and crossing Green Park on foot and meeting the thousands, eventually tens of thousands of people who were going to leave flowers and Paddington Bears and poems,

and there was a wonderful atmosphere. The first few days there was quite a lot of tears, and then people actually thought, well, she was 96, an amazing life, what an achievement, but there was still this feeling of people taking children and grandchildren to be part of history. But there was something very easy in the air. People were friendly with one another. And they were people of all shapes, sizes, ages and types. And I, eventually, I think I worked out what it was. Because this is quite extraordinary.

The atmosphere is extraordinary. And I thought, actually, when we go home, we turn on the television and we see the news, and there was a lot of terrible stuff from Ukraine then as now, and I thought, of course, we're touching something that is good here. There was the Queen, 70 years, made a commitment at 21, she kept all her life, and she was good, she was kind, she was decent, she was consistent, and I felt people were reaching out almost to touch that goodness. I thought this is wonderful and then the 10 days ended we had

the funeral and then the world seemed to become grim all of a sudden all over did you feel that at all well it's that's a really good point to make uh whilst we were in that period of national grief and mourning I think like a lot of, I rather hope that something lasting would come from that kind of unified feeling. And actually, I went down to Buckingham Palace with my dog and members of my household who wanted to accompany me, and it was a wonderful atmosphere. But you're right to say it didn't last.

And how quickly we've come to today, where the way that the royal family is being discussed is back to, I think, the butcher's board. Well, except I've come to today, where the way that the royal family is being discussed is back to, I think, the butcher's board. Well, except I've come to the conclusion, having watched only an hour of the Harry and Meghan documentary this morning, that actually it's interesting to see in a way, and well done them, letting their voice be heard. But it doesn't affect the course of royal history one shot. Do you think it doesn't? No, I don't think, curiously, I thought it was, I was sort of all ready for, you know, where are the bombs going to be? Where are the fireworks? Yeah, exactly. And then I thought, no, actually, this is about them and their concerns and their

anxieties, perfectly reasonable about being people in the public eye and all of that. But actually, the institution of the royal family, the thing that's been going and evolving over more than a thousand years, this is a sort of hiccup, and it is a sideshow. One of the frustrations for Prince Harry, and that's why I think he's calling his book Spare, and why he warmed to it when somebody suggested, let's call it Spare. They obviously were thinking of, you know, an heir and a spare. But actually, he is spare. He's not part of the show. And the show is, curious as it is, it's this running thing that has been going through our history. And I was reflecting, again, going back to the Queen's death, how Queen Victoria, 100 years ago, 120 years ago, when she died, it was a global event, but then Britain was a global country.

Now we are not. We're the 6th, 7th largest GDP in the world, the 21st most populous country, and yet more people turned up, more heads of state, princes, prime ministers, presidents, came to London for the funeral of the Queen than had ever gathered in one city in the history of the world. And it was because of her nature, her personality, and her position. Now, Harry is an interesting character and a remarkable character. I have a son-in-law

who's in the army and served with him in Afghanistan and will not hear a word said against him. Says this is a really good chap. Fantastic. So, obviously a good person. I know, I do know, much loved and admired by the Queen. Obviously, in Victor's games, his service, also his personality. Whenever Harry phoned Windsor, he was put straight through, always. She loved him. She loved all her grandchildren, but she loved him. And welcomed Meghan.

I know this. And interestingly said to Meghan, originally, you're an actress by profession. If you want to carry on doing that, you should, you must, you must follow your calling. But Meghan said, no, she wanted to be part of this, particularly showed an interest in the Commonwealth. And the Queen was delighted by that. And then the Queen took her, you know, on her first solo outing, took Meghan, and she took her, I was delighted to see, to my old constituency. I used to be an MP, the city of Chester. And, Fred, it wasn't anything to do with me.

It was because the Queen saw that she was going to be opening a theatre that day. So she thought, Meghan, actress, theatre. And I have, on every account, not just the Queen's, but also the Lord Lieutenant of Cheshire, who was there that day, Meghan was brilliant. She absolutely did it perfectly. She, you know, was one step behind the Queen. She was delightful. And everyone thought, oh, this is going to be fantastic. And the Queen was enthusiastic and said, this is, you know, welcome, and suggested to her that maybe

Sophie Wessex, as sort of one of the most recent persons joining the royal family, would be a good person to be kind of mentor. And that's when Meghan said I don't think so I've got Harry and rejected that from that suggestion from the Queen and from then on in obviously it's ended up where it is now which is exciting for them living in America it's new and different for them sad for us if we miss Harry as I think people do but I don't think it affects the course of royal history one shot. Can we talk about duty? Because this is, you have written, I don't know if you remember Giles, you've written a book called Elizabeth

An Intimate Portrait. Yeah, I was supposed to be talking about that but it was kind of a stretch for me. Can I say the reason I love coming to you, and I loved you in your earlier lives. Don't talk about that now. Well, we don't talk about that now, but I remember when I came to the canteen, I said, oh, we're going to do this in the canteen, because last time we did, I think, I was outside Cafe Nero. Yes, it was quite

noisy. It was quite busy, wasn't it? The reason I've come is that I think the reason I love you as broadcasters... We haven't said a word since you came in. No, it's that you listen. That's what I'm saying. I've got nothing more to say now. I'm thrilled to be here. Do you know what, Charles?

We can talk about anything, but you're right. We're here to talk about my book and my live podcast shows. Your bloody book, which, by the way, I've read. Good grief. Oh, I know. Absolutely. Well, you're either a quick reader or they got you an early copy. It was quite an early copy, and I don't have a fabulous social life, Charles, so I was fine.

And it's been cold. There is a really interesting bit in the book where you accompany the Queen on a relatively routine sequence of engagements. I think it's been cold. No, there is a really interesting bit in the book where you accompany the Queen on a relatively routine sequence of engagements. I think it's back in early 2000s. And, God, I mean, it sounds quite... Honestly, it sounds quite dull. But she just keeps going. I mean, she doesn't bring a particular sparkle to it,

but she's diligent and she's dutiful and she smiles at people and her face used to ache at the end of the day. It was extraordinary. The reason I picked... I've kept a diary. I first met the Queen on 2nd May 1968. And if you meet the Queen, you remember it. She doesn't remember meeting you necessarily, but you remember it. And I wrote it down.

And this was a period, about 20 years ago, when people said, you know, the Queen was at her peak. This was her... And I spent many days with her, as you saw from the diary. And what was interesting is that for being... When she was the Queen, being the Queen was enough. She just needed to turn up. And she was always herself.

Other people... Nobody's normal with the Queen. Did either of you meet the Queen? No. If you had, there's always a kind of nervous laughter in the room. Nobody's quite natural, but the Queen was always the same person. If she came in here and sat down and she felt she needed some lippy, she'd open her handbag and be doing her lipstick and then we'd just chat to you quite normally.

Nobody was normal with her, but she was normal with everybody. And it was sufficient to be the Queen. And she did nothing with much ceremony. That day, if it's the day i think you're referring to she was unveiling a plaque and there we all were standing by the plaque and she just went over to it and pulled the string that was it that was done and then we there was a somebody said oh you must sign this your majesty and she's signed a sort of big photograph or something and she signed it and then she said well where does this go now

there was silence in the room nobody thought about that so i thought well let's take a big photograph or something, and she signed it. And then she said, well, where does this go now? There was silence in the room. Nobody thought about that. So I thought, well, let's take command of this thing. So I said, here, Your Majesty. Oh, good. That's what you think. Very good. And up we got and we put the thing on the wall. She wasn't faultless, who amongst us is. And I think there's a suggestion that her real lack of interest in any kind of confrontation of any sort

may have not done a great deal for some of her relatives, particularly her second son. I don't know about that. She wasn't like her mother. Her mother could put her head in the sand. The Queen was very even-tempered, very easy in a sense, and she could see the two sides of every argument. She was very loving and very forgiving.

And one of the things I'm very conscious of was that she wanted so totally to be fair. That came home to me when I was at the Royal Variety performance with the Duke of Edinburgh on one occasion. And he would let you know if he'd enjoyed an act or not. You know, he'd applaud loudly, although he'd look at the programme and say, oh, God, Elton John again. Oh, damn.

Poor old Elton gets the right bashing. Anyway, but the Queen applauded everything equally. And I said to her at the interval, Your Majesty, do you seem to be enjoying the show? She said, well, yes, of course. I said, but you seem to be enjoying everything equally. Are you? She said, well, not entirely.

But, you know, I like to applaud evenly because it's on television and their families might be watching. And I think she took that seriously, the idea. So it was a matter of policy with her to be even-handed. I don't think... Well, the point I wanted to make was this. She never talked about individuals because she didn't want to be invidious about them.

The one exception she made was if you talked to her about who she admired most. She'd met everybody, you know, from Frank Sinatra and Marilyn Monroe through to Vladimir Putin and Idi Amin. She had met them all. She singled out, whoever you said who was special, she always singled out Nelson Mandela. And the reason being, she always followed it in the same way,

that 27 years in prison and emerged without rancour. And that was for her a philosophy. I mean, her faith was so fundamental to her. Yes, driven by duty, made happy by her dogs and her horses, but sustained by her faith. And she really took that seriously. I was standing at the back of a church with her, I think in Malmesbury, and it was the Book of Common Prayer.

And I said, oh, it's marvellous, the Book of Common Prayer. And we looked at the programme, and the first prayer was Our Father which art in heaven, the Lord's Prayer. And she said, pointing at it, she said, sometimes the Lord's Prayer is all you need. And she told me, because I said my father, people of her generation, my father's generation, he said his prayers on his knees by his bedside every night.

And the Queen did too. And it meant something. The Lord's Prayer meant something to her. So when you speak about her children, I mean, in the book I write about how she actually was able to divide public duty, public obligation and private problems. And so when it came to Prince Andrew, he explained what the stories were, he put his case to her.

She responded, apparently, with just one word after the first account, intriguing. But then came to the conclusion that as far as the royal family was concerned he had to step back but as far as she was concerned she he was her son and the next day she made made it clear she was by being photographed out riding with him voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to speak. So we were Fee and Jane when we were in a previous life elsewhere, which was never really kind of decided.

We just thought it kind of tripped off the tongue nicely. And then when we came here, we're different here. We're different here. You are different, but I do a podcast with Susie Dent. Yes. And I was brought up by, I knew Sir Ralph Richardson, a great actor, and he always said, Oh, cocky, a gentleman should always be second on the billing.

So when I'm appearing with... It's uncanny, it's like he's in the room, James. Not quite sure who's in the room. He appeared with a wonderful actress called Celia Johnson. Oh, yes. And she wasn't a dame, but she was a wonderful actress. So by virtue of his fame and his seniority, it should have been Sir Ralph Richardson and Celia Johnson.

But oh, no, cocky, Miss Johnson must come first. She's a lady. So I felt that Susie Dent should come first on the billing. But the people making the post said, oh, no, no, no, now it's done alphabetically. Your brand would be Brandreth and Dent. Well, Times Radio has a fantastic policy where if it's a man and a woman presenting,

the woman's name always comes first because it has just been the kind of legend of radio broadcasting that the men have always come first and the girl has sat there and just laughed. Do you know, that's something the Queen never had to feel, did she? No, she never did. She came first from a very early age. But isn't it amazing?

I'm just reflecting on the fact that the Queen was only 25 when she became Queen. Just extraordinary. It is very, very odd. Can I just shoehorn in a quick question about the marriage to Philip? Because his persona was famously irascible, and I can't... Having read the book, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, Giles,

he actually comes across to me as almost unbearable at times. And you make every attempt you can to get the man to emote because there was real tragedy in his life wasn't it particularly in his early life he had a rotten childhood and all he ever seems to say is well that's life yes people die death is part of life but you're right and he originally asked me to write the story he invited me to do the initial biography of him a short biography and then he wouldn't say anything. And I said to him, and he was so perverse, whatever you said, he contradicted it. So I'd say, I'd talk about your Navy years.

He'd say, yes, the first two words to come out of the November's mouth always were, yes, but. So whatever you said, it was, yes, but. So I'd talk to him about the Navy. He said, yes, but I'd rather have been in the Air Force. And he said, why have you put, this is true, I showed him the proof,

he said, why have you put I was serving on HMS Ramelies? I said, because you were, sir. You did. You gave me the logbooks, kindly, sir. You served, mentioned in dispatches, distinguished service. He said, do not serve on HMS, I said, you did serve on HMS Ramelies. You gave me the logbook. He said, I did not serve on HMS Ramelies, I served in HMS Ramelies. You don't live on your house, do you? You live in your house.

Don't you know anything? Oh, God almighty. And he asked you to do it. And he asked me to do it. I'm very glad he did, because through him, I met, I mean, I found him fascinating and admirable, too. But through him, I met the Queen. And this is absolutely true. When I was already writing the book, this is 25 years ago, at the Royal Variety Show, waiting outside the Royal Box, he arrived with the Queen and he said to the Queen, this is Jasper, Andrews. And then he leant towards her and said, he's writing about you. And then he went right close to her ear.

He said, be careful. He's going to cut you into little pieces. And the Queen looked quite alarmed. I blanched. And it was one of his jokes. He went off chuckling. That's sort of what I mean about him being a little difficult. But on that point, if you'd had the opportunity

to know something that none of us know about them or see something that was a bit untoward, would you have put it in a book? Or would you have kept it to yourself? No, I think, I mean, I think I have tried to sort of show what they were like, what their relationship was like. I mean, he wouldn't talk to me about it,

but he did occasionally show me. He gave me a quotation, for example, from Antoine de Saint-Exupéry. He was a great reader and he admired him because he was the man who wrote The Little Prince, but was also an aviator. And the quotation read, love consists not necessarily in gazing into one another's eyes, but in looking in the same direction. And he gave me that after he'd refused. I said, you know,

there are no pictures of you and the Queen holding hands and, you know, and he just wouldn't answer. But then he did show me that. An oblique of saying it. And after that meeting, one of the Queen's private secretary pointed me in the direction of another quotation from Cyril Connolly that said, if you want to look at the quality of a man, look at the health of his wife, which is very interesting. And what he meant was, the Queen was, until her last illness, a wonderfully healthy, robust person. And throughout her life, she was a robust person.

She was small, but she was always sturdy. And it worked for them. And understanding other people's marriages is never easy. But for me, it's been a fascinating thing to study. And I come away from it admiring them both, admiring them both, actually, hugely. And their attitude to life, which was so different from Harry and Meghan's, look up, look out.

Look up, look out, and don't talk about yourself. Yeah. Yeah, well, gosh. It's a good rule. What's happened there? We've only got about four minutes now to talk about your podcast. The reason I came in.

Yes. Let's quickly talk about your podcast. So for people who've never come across it before, I mean, how daft they must be, it's all about words, isn't it? And it's just a delicious, indulgent festival of our language. I'm writing that down because that's the quote of the day. It's why I got up this morning.

It's called Something Rhymes With Purple, and it's because something does. I didn't think anything did. I thought it was a word like silver, for which there was no rhyme. But a herple apparently is walking with a limp. I've been friends with Susie Dent for about 30 years. And we love words. We love words and language.

And so we get together every week, and it drops on a Tuesday morning. We talk about words and language. And we started doing it in theatres. Do you do yours in theatres? We've done a couple of shows, yes. Well, we do it at the Fortune Theatre in London. We're next on on the 18th of December. Then there's one in January on the 15th, one in February on the 19th. And basically, we just get together in the Fortune Theatre

in the West End of London, in Covent Garden, and we talk about words and language. And the people come, and they call themselves the Purple People. And we've had literally ten, well, like you, we've been lucky enough to have tens of millions of downloads, like you. We won the Best Entertainment Podcast Award. We haven't won that.

Haven't you? No. Have you not? We won a comedy one, Giles. Oh, fine. But it's not about us. Keep going, because we haven't got very much time. Keep going, keep going.

And people come. Well, we do it at this theatre, where they're showing The Woman in Black. And the last time we do it, we do it once a month, and the last time, we got to the questions in black. And the last time we do it, we do it once a month, and the last time, we got to the questions, and part two is sort of open to people, can ask, you know, what is the meaning of caboodle?

Where does it come from? Yes, or king, which I was fascinated by in your latest episode, which is all about royal words. I'd never thought to actually examine king as a word. Well, a man in the gallery puts his hand up and says, when is the play beginning? He was staying at the hotel next door and he thought he'd come to the Sunday matinee. And he was totally confused.

But I bet he enjoyed your show all the same. He stayed to the very end. And during the interval, we walk among them so they may touch our garb. Oh, we never did that. There's no demand for it, to be fair. We mix and mingle. And interesting, we discover mix and mingle is a

turn of phrase introduced amazingly during the reign of Queen Mary and King George V, who were the people who really invented the walkabout, also used about them. Yes, in episode three of Harry and Meghan, it's all coming back to me now, Meghan says she'd never heard of a walkabout until she had to do one. Oh, please.

Apparently she'd never heard of Prince Harry until she met him and had to Google him. You know, she'd never heard of a walkabout until she had to do one. Oh, please. Apparently she'd never heard of Prince Harry until she met him and had to Google him. You know, she'd never heard of her wedding on the day it happened. It happened the Wednesday before, apparently, privately in the garden with the Archbishop. We can move on. Oh, dear. Oh, I'd forgotten about that.

They did say that, didn't they? She did say that. Oh, anyway, look, I seriously wish them well and hope it works out for them. And I don't think... I'm sure the king has not watched it because he doesn't watch much TV the best of times. The queen enjoyed television.

She might have watched it. She liked Line of Duty, didn't she? Well, during lockdown, she did like Line of Duty. I say she liked it. The master of the household told me that he was watching it with her and he'd assumed this role of the explainer. She was watching it but not following it totally. We all needed one of those.

They fell about laughing with him trying to tell her what was going on. Do you think that she was keen to see Series 7? I mean, we love Ted Hastings, but do we need another series of Line of Duty? I don't know. Giles, we've run out of time, but it's always so lovely to see you. Why don't you just come back in the new year and delight us again? Now I know where you are and I know what a nice show it is. It is, honestly, it's the best show on radio. Well, I mean, you're being daft now,

but thank you for saying that. And it's always wonderful to see you. Look, you gave me a nice quote for my thing. I'm giving you a nice, the best show on radio. Yeah, well, that's great. We'll certainly use that. Until the return of Just a Minute. I think the only adjective in town is irrepressible, and we're going to apply it to Giles Brandreth, whose book, which I did enjoy, honestly, was Elizabeth, An Intimate Portrait. And if you have a thirst to know anything

about the life and times of Elizabeth II, that lust for knowledge will be satisfied by that tome. I think one of the great things about Giles Brandreth and possibly one of the secrets to his success is that you leave his company feeling better. Would you agree? He's entertaining and he's funny and he knows something about you,

you know, possibly he exaggerates that to make you feel more comfortable. And he's just a delight, isn't he? He's got charm about him. So it's nice to see him. I think if you don't like him, having met him, I think you would be a bit strange. Yes, I agree.

I just think he's great. And I can see why he moves in such high circles because you'd quite like to have someone like that around. He's just easy to be with, which is an underrated quality, actually, particularly in slebs. It is. Some of them can let you down.

Our producer looks heartbroken. She's no idea. No. Until I told her then, she had no idea. Some of them aren't what they seem, are they, Jane? They're not as nice as they make themselves out to be. Right, we've had some absolutely extraordinary emails this week, and thank you very much indeed for getting in touch with us.

It is janeandfee at times.radio. And Jane said exactly the right thing on the podcast yesterday, that we would just really like to hear about your lives. So we don't have to ramble on on this podcast about things that just interest us. We're genuinely curious about what you're doing, how you're feeling, things that interest you. Here comes an email from H who says, Hello, Jane and Fi, just listening to the podcast today. And with reference to B.B. Lynch and renting over 50,

I think there's a very British mindset about owning bricks and mortar. In Europe, renting is more common with no stigma. Is it controversial to ask what's so great about homeownership? I am a homeowner, but now would be content to have the freedom of renting versus owning bricks and accumulating the stuff we tend to build up as homeowners. I think a bit of critical thinking would provide more balance to mass building of new properties and buying into the myth that owning property equals security. It doesn't. Those are such good points, H. And as Bibi had found out,

owning property doesn't equal security because when you come to sell your property, you might be more insecure than ever. And I think it's always a good comparison to make. In Europe, the rental market is the more normal housing market to be in. Yeah, it is. Except I always come back to the question, who does own the properties that they're all renting in Europe? Somebody must. Very wealthy property owners, but I don't... So they're loaded then? So yes, and obviously there are problems with that. But I think because the rental market is much larger, it's just more competitively priced. Our rental market, especially in our cities at the moment, is absolutely absurd because of the imbalance of supply and

demand and because people do in this country want to head towards home ownership when they can, which is you know just one part of a very complicated picture. But I love it when people slightly pick us up on an assumed position. Except that H has done that., but H is writing from the perspective of somebody who does own their own home. Yes, but is envious and thinks that there's a freedom, which, you know, perhaps, well, perhaps for some people there would be if you've got enough money to never run out of it

and not be able to rent anywhere else, which is Bebe's position in her 50s yeah i don't i i remember the last time was it the last time i rented a flat i actually then i moved in with friends for a couple of years before i was able to um buy a property but that was only with my then partner i couldn't possibly have bought a property in london on my own and that was in the 1990s anyway uh the last time i was renting was with a colleague from work and I just remember the horror of getting a letter because that's how people communicated in those days

saying that the rent was going up. I mean, it was just like that. Here's your, all your rent's going up. And it was going up by a substantial amount which really made it impossible for us to stay in the place. And so we had about three weeks to make a decision and find somewhere else. Well, the terrible thing now is the no-fault eviction.

Yeah, I mean, it's really... Which is causing so much pain. Yeah, I'm not sure I agree entirely with H. I think the security of knowing that your bricks and mortar are your own or will be one day when you've paid off the mortgage, because then you won't get a letter saying that you've got a month to get out. You just won't. But I'm going to agree with H because she does, or he, puts in the caveat get a letter saying that you've got a month to get out. Yeah. Just won't.

But I'm going to agree with Age because she does, or he, puts in the caveat that if we had a different attitude to the building of new properties and there were many, many more properties available to rent and so the market calmed down, then there might be an element of freedom to it. You try getting an MP to, or particularly Tory MP, to agree to lots of new homes being built in their constituency. That's very true. But, you know, now I've appeared in the House of Commons, Jane, there's nothing I can't do. I'll tackle it.

You'll be running the place. It's a lovely email from Jenny. Do you want to do that one? How on earth do you manage to read so many books? Asked Jenny, and Jenny, that is a good question. In each podcast episode, you ask in-depth questions of your guests. Well, sort of. Who have inevitably just brought out a new book, which you have read. Well, we should say, Jenny, we sometimes we're just not able to read every single word.

I mean, I did enjoy Giles's book, which was enormous. But it was very easy. I mean, I mean this in a nice way. It was easy reading. So it was a delightful companion across this rather chilly week. So that's been great. But if we have a really, you know, pretty impenetrable, serious literary work, I think it's fair to say that we will certainly attempt it.

And we will go on the Google. Yeah, but we will always attempt it. Oh, we will always attempt it. Because I think it's very insulting to even pretend to do an interview if you're not even bothered to try to read the book. And I do think also when you're interviewing authors, you do have to have a genuine curiosity in your questions. You know, it is their work, their life's work, their brain you're trying to tap into. So there's got to be a kind of authenticity in what you ask. But also, should we just show our pants a little bit here?

We have decided on this programme to take it in turns to lead on an interview there are two of us yeah uh so one of us has always done much more research and the other one bobs in and i think that's i think that's good yeah in the case of our interview with giles brandreth he allowed us to bob in uh in the course of not to the nation. Oh, no, it was lovely. He was really interesting because he does give, he gives good anecdotes. He's good. He's good. Right.

Oh, here's an email. This is a serious one, actually, but it's an interesting one. It's from Christina who says, use my real name. I'm not hiding anymore. Your guest, AM Holmes, mentioned briefly the impact of being adopted and it stirred up some familiar feelings

from a slightly different vantage point for me. My father abandoned me at birth and has never acknowledged my existence as his daughter. I wasn't allowed to know who he was until I was 16. Up until that point I thought of him as a family friend. He was married to somebody else with two children when I was conceived and didn't step up to claim me as an addition to the family and still to this day has not even though he divorced when I was five. He just step up to claim me as an addition to the family and still to this day has not, even though he divorced when I was five. He just doesn't want to know that I exist. I'm in my mid-forties now and I've done a lot of personal work. Most of the shame I carried about that has gone,

but I still feel the heavy weight of not being acknowledged and being a secret. I think it probably impacts the majority of the relationships in my life, but I do try to minimise it the best I can. One positive outcome is that it's led me to encouraging my children to ask whatever they like and to talk openly. I also became a therapist. I wonder in part at the response to the hush-hush, closed-down, secretive environment I grew up in.

My father is approaching the end of his life now, and I've given up hope of anything changing but I'm also aware I do have a strange emotional tie, perhaps even a love for this stranger. I do question how and if I will grieve his passing and even if I should or would attend his funeral. Life, says Christina, is complex isn't't it? It really is, and human relationships are complex. And I'm sorry you've been put through that experience, because not to be acknowledged by one of your parents is, well, it's a real, to put it mildly, that's a gap in your life, Christina, and I'm really sorry.

What do you think about attending funerals? If Christina wants to go and she knows the funeral's happening I would, if she thinks it might make her feel better I would go, I would stand at the back and if she wants to leave, I'd leave as soon as possible I'd go with somebody And take a friend Yes, as well

And completely and utterly on your own terms I know lots of people who think it is so incredibly important to go to funerals that they do attend funerals of people who perhaps in life they haven't seen or really loved that much for quite a long time and i've always found that a bit bizarre i mean i understand the need for closure but at the same time uh you know that person has died. It is about you by then, actually, Christina. It's entirely about her. So, yeah, I wouldn't worry that one too much. But what a brave email as well to send to us.

So thank you very much indeed. Always glad to hear even the dark experiences of life. We're at our weekend now, aren't we, on a Thursday. We go into a three-day weekend. I mean, I know you're incredibly busy, Jane. Incredibly busy. I'm popping out for lunch tomorrow. But I wonder whether the Christmas spirit has truly

come upon you yet. No. Oh. Okay. Right. Well, that's the end of that conversation. We do have... Have you got your stockings packed up? Have you got your Christmas shopping done? Please don't make me feel tense. Oh, OK. No, I've not done anywhere near the level of preparation I might normally have done by this stage.

Due to this almost full-time working schedule you've insisted I do. It's not on me, love. We're in it together. It's impossible. No, I've got rather a nice weekend planned, so I've got a little lunch tomorrow with chums. That'll be lovely. It's an annual event for two of their birthdays. So I think we'll get... I won't use that expression, but we'll have a lovely, lovely time. You'll have a very nice time.

You'll do some imbibing. It's possible, although, you know, I'm not as much of an imbiber as I once was. I'm following in the path of our guest, Grace Dent. I'm still thinking about how good Grace Dent looked on the back of Not Drinking. So I think there's something. I've got nasal again. You have. Every single time we do

the podcast, my cold comes back. Well, I think it might be something to do with the studio or just something to do with the fact that it's the end of a very, very arduous working day. And can I just say that I thoroughly enjoyed our team Christmas lunch today in the News UK canteen. And it's been a while as well since I've had a Christmas lunch out of a

cardboard box because we all, most of us went for takeaway boxes in case we couldn't finish it and needed to chow down later. And I've got some very nice, albeit rather dry, turkey to take back to Nancy, who won't be able to believe her luck. My bag today is some used ham, some used turkey and Giles Brandreth's book. Don't want to leave that on the tube, Jane.

It's an evening and a half, isn't it? Isn't it, Giles? It's gorgeous. And of course, when we meet again, we will know the fate of England. So let's see whether my crystal ball has cleared up. Yeah, isn't that funny? Because they're on a two-day break, aren't they, in Qatar? Yeah, I've really missed it.

And into that void fell Harry and Meghan. I wonder whether they planned it, Jane. Oh, I think they'll have been in touch with Harry Kane and the boys. Absolutely. No doubt about it. No, I mean, are you feeling anything? No, I'm not feeling anything, because you know that I've got a rather conflicted attitude

to England's continuing in the World Cup, because there are some clashes coming up with members of my family who are going to end up, if we go all the way, watching the World Cup final, which in their lifetime will be a massive, massive thing on a tiny screen in the back of the seat in front of you on an aircraft without their mates. And it's not going to be pretty.

And you're going to tell them, are you, that you can get live telly on a plane. Right-o. Yes. Yeah. No, well, that's the awful thing, isn't it? Because they'll just be a kind of... No, you'll be entirely reliant on,

you know, it's Captain Brian Kent and we're flying in. Oh, and I've got a score for you. It's Brazil 6, England 0. 0. Yes. Do stay in your seats. Fasten your seatbelts.

Do not drink too many of those small bottles. Anyway, I am going to say that I actually think that Mbappe be gone, I think England are going to win. Oh, okay. Right, we'll keep everybody posted on Mystic Jane and don't forget, she's never been right so far. Good night. Bye.

You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now, you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey I want to listen to this but live, then you can

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