Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A pant of safety (with Tiggy Walker)

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

BIG NEWS. Trump has landed and Jamal and Fi are getting a bit sidetracked... They also chat Bananarama, period pants, and over-sized bath robes. Plus, Tiggy Walker, wife of DJ Johnnie Walker, discusses caring for him before his death and her new book 'Both Sides Now'. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfi.Podcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Melania doesn't seem chatty. You're telling me. I mean, this is a woman who said more on the back of a jacket than she has actually in front of a microphone. You know when you're in a car with someone who you don't know very well and you have to do all the heavy lifting? Yes, it would be that. It would be that.

I'm Adam Vaughn, Environment Editor at the Times. And in Planet Hope, we meet the people tackling our biggest environmental and scientific challenges. From saving penguins in Patagonia to helping people of paralysis to move again. These are stories of science, courage and hope. Follow Planet Hope wherever you get your podcasts. Planet Hope is brought to you by The Times

in paid partnership with Rolex and its perpetual planet initiative. This episode of Offair is brought to you by Cancer Research UK, September is Childhood Cancer Awareness Month where people, charities and organisations globally come together to put children's and young people's cancers in the spotlight the progress made but also why we still have so much further to go.

Now around 4,100 children and young people are diagnosed with cancer every year in the UK. That is 11 new cases every day. Thanks to research, children's cancer survival has more than doubled since the 1970s in the UK. But while survival has, has improved. Cancer is still the leading cause of death by disease in children and young people over the age of one. Cancer Research UK is actually the biggest charitable funder into children's and young people's cancers in the UK.

They also partner with other charities, funders and people affected by children's and young people's cancers to make the biggest impact they can. They are backing some of the brightest minds in science across the country and internationally to make discoveries that will transform outcomes for children and young people. Thanks in part to their work, in the last 50 years, around 34,500 children and young people have survived into adulthood in the UK. To find out more, you can visit cruk.org slash children and young people, or you could visit your local cancer research UK shop this September. Let me just get you.

get in the zone. I'm in the zone. That didn't take long. Gosh, is that the magical ability to just do that? It is. I wish I could do that today. I'm very much not in the zone. Do you know what Jane? I just, I think of an exact figure and it is my as yet to

still be paid off mortgage and I'm in the zone. Wow. No, no. No, trust me. It's a belter. So we're here. That's great. The clouds have gathered over the south of England and this is the day when he walks amongst us although he doesn't touch you because President Trump is going to be confined to some stately carriages

and driven around the Windsor estate in order to protect his privacy because that's a man who loves his privacy there's something faintly ridiculous about that isn't there? Yeah I saw, I came across what I assume was part of his motorcade last last night, although he flew by helicopter to Winfield House. So I imagine it was just his...

Which is the ambassador's residence in London. If you've ever watched The Diplomat, which I'm a big fan of on Netflix. It's where Kerry Russell lives in The Diplomat. Yeah, but it can only have been his staff, I guess, coming through all the Blues and Twos on through Chalk Farm last night. It's always on my way home from a party. but yeah he came by chopper that's how much he's not walking amongst us

he's not even driving on our roads apart from in Windsor in a carriage I thought Melania's coat was just absurd it's big it just looked like so I always have this problem whenever I go and stay whenever you step off your private jet

whenever I stay in a very posh hotel and they have bath robes because being of the shorter disposition they're always too long and they trail around after me so you have to ask for a child's robe and she looked a bit like that We're only talking about these details

because actually I can't bring myself to be talking about the politics yet there's a huge press conference at Chekers tomorrow in which I think... You don't have to talk about that because I'll be doing it. You'll be doing that, weren't you? Yes. Well, that's going to be fascinating. It will be really, really interesting. Yeah. Possibly late, as per usual, in Trump world.

But also, it'll just be another Trump show, weren't it? So, yeah. Are you hung over today? Can I ask? I'm tired. I'm tired. Okay. Well, in a... Well, no, I mean, this is terrific. No, not at all.

Because you can have a nice night's sleep tonight. But also, when you come in tomorrow, I mean, it will be. Press the button. Here comes the Donald and Keir show. And you can sit back and watch. Oh, yeah. Feet up, bringing in games. It's a popcorn. Yeah.

That's not tempt fate, actually, by saying, all kinds of things. No, God, yeah. And also, you're a very dedicated and diligent professional woman. So the last thing that you'll be doing is putting your feet up on the desk. No, I'm not Ed Vasey. No, he does do that. So he's a very, very late. back broadcaster. He is. I'm very, very fond of Ed Vasey, but yeah, if we could all just approach

life with the confidence of a Vasey. It is remarkable, isn't it? Do you think if you asked him where that came from, he would know? No. And is that part of the secret, do you think? You've really never had to question the need for confidence, so that's what makes it kind of an impenetrable armour that you can wear quite possibly we should get him in and put him on the spot and probe him

yeah well he did this podcast with me very very early days but the listeners like that it didn't it wasn't no but that's actually not on him because I think it was quite a difficult position to be in

and Matt Chawley did a couple of turns as well and for whatever reason they're very different blokes but they are blokes. It just didn't work. It's lady time. This is lady time.

It's true. I mean, they wouldn't be very good at joining in the period chat. No, so go for it. Yeah. We've had all my... Actually, before we move on to periods, actually, which I do want to do at length

because we have some great emails on the subject. I would just like to read this absolute cracker of email from Stella, Stella Bell Star, in fact. Hello, Jane and Fee. I'm rather late in joining in the conversation Rick had with you when he was describing his appearance on a rather bizarre German TV show. I was in an all-girl band in the 80s, the Bell Stars.

I couldn't believe it. And we had a similar experience appearing on a German TV show broadcast out of Munich. We were promoting our brackets, big exclamation mark, I'll allow that one, Stella, closed brackets, hit Sign of the Times. This is the sign of the Times. I don't recognise it.

I don't recognise it. It's a great song. Only in the Harry Stiles, Sign of the Times. Yeah, very different. Very different. Okay, I'm going to have to have. to go and dig out Sign of the Times by Bell Star though. Stella says, we were promoting Sign of the Times on a TV show

that turned out to be a sort of variety show which included a number of acts, a plate spinner, a ventriloquist with a dummy dog, a bit like spit the dog from Tiswas. The finale of the show was a singing slash dancing troupe of milk maidens and men in Turillian outfits slapping their ladder hose and thighs and their broke shoes while singing, umpapa.

We renamed it, the Wheel Tappers and Shonto Social Club. Now there's a niche cultural reference for it. the listeners, of whom I am, of course, one, says Stella. Lovey Show makes me chuckle. She says, P.S., I've got lots more anecdotes of life on the road with an 80s, all-girl band. I am interested in all of them, Stella. Just bring them to us.

Keep them bringing it. Week in, week out, please. I'm desperate to know what it was like being in an all-girl band in the 80s. I mean, one of my favourite videos of all time is the Band-Aid video because Bannarama looked like they've just been pulled out the pub to go and perform. They look like they haven't been to bed. One of them smoking a fag in the front row while singing feeds the world.

It's quite likely that was their journey. Can you imagine? I just love the idea of someone being, girls, girls, you're on the front row. You've got to get a neck to mid-jure. Come on, get out the pub. And someone just pulled them into a cab and then push them for the Band-Aid video.

I just imagine being an all-girl band in the 80s must have been at riot. We would definitely, definitely like some more anecdotes and would be very interested in what you're all doing now. as well. Absolutely. So keep those coming. I'm going to make a seamless move into looped sanitary towels, everybody. Dear Jane and Fee, I was interested to hear Fee say that loop towels were phased out in the 1990s in 2009, just after I'd given birth in St. Thomas's Hospital in Central London. I asked my husband to get me some sanitary towels. He went to the hospital shop

and to my surprise, came back with towels, with loops, but no belt. He said that was the only option available. And I really wasn't in a position to visit myself. I was amazed that loop towels were still available, but why no belt? I think the nurse found me some safety pins. Well, I mean, I have no great knowledge about the sanitary towels industry, but I just assumed that they were phased out in the 1990s because they just weren't really, they weren't the things that were shoved at us when we started our periods, which actually was before that,

it would have been the mid-1980s. But I do remember that because of the size of those things, I mean, they were just like a kind of a brick, really. They were in hospital shops, because after you've given birth, you know, there's absolutely no point in having a light flow thing. You know, you've got to have something that's got some capacity in it. You can give it some welly. So presumably those are just the biggest ones you can find,

but you don't want to go selling. They've been in the shops since the 60s. Who knows? Sorah in Switzerland comes in to say, Hello Feet and Jamal Jane, still listening to the exotic and mundane episode talking about the pill. I listened recently to the Doctor's Tullochin WhatsApp doc podcast and thought it was useful

read the importance of having periods and overall health slash guine issues. I like those Tullochans a lot. We have them in the magazine a lot. I sort of know them vaguely and they're very good boys and very wise. Sarah says, hope you find it useful.

P.S. not having periods doesn't extend fertility. This is actually my favourite part of the email. All the best. Keep up the good conversations. Hope not two mantle typos. venting this without my reading classes. Very good.

I enjoyed that, Sarah. Thank you. Made me chuckle. I always like it, because you know if you're on an iPhone, your iPhone will broadcast itself and advertise itself at the bottom of message. Oh, right, you can take that off. Yes, in early doors, you know, when people realize that that was there, they did put very funny things instead of that. Yeah, you know, sent with my drunk hand or sent with my, you know,

my stolen 18-year-old Android or whatever it was. just on the continued subject of periods Emma says Dear Jane Fee and Eve I went to an all-girls school and we had an annual visit from the town packs lady No confusion ever how to use them for us And we were given freebies

Including a blue plastic holder to keep them in I can clearly remember at least two visits She was very glamorous And looked like very unlike any of our teachers But period pants in a menstrual cup All the way forward I would also like to say period pants are great things I know some of my goddaughters use them

A lot and they are a really good thing when you're just kind of starting out. Oh gosh, I think they're helpful. And also a very good thing for, yeah, I was going to say overnight. Yeah, and I mean, I think they're just a pant of safety throughout your entire life. And I don't know whether, I mean, gentlemen of a certain age quite often need a little bit of continence protection.

And I wonder whether they'll transfer into that range as well. I think they're one of the best modern inventions, actually, in clothing. And you wonder why it took so long to get them. Absolutely. It's bananas, isn't that? Because they're just wonderful, aren't they? And quite subtle compared to the big old bricky panty... Oh, God, totally. And, I mean, apart from anything else,

I think for girls playing sport, they're incredibly reassuring. So we say all hail, all hail to the period pant. Lady Hale and Barristers, I didn't mean to make that link, it's accidental. Evening, says Michelle from Devon. I thought the interview with Lady Hale was very interesting. I feel part of what's wrong with the system

is that to do the bar course in order to qualify to be a barrister, you have to pay yourself, which is about £13,000, plus you need money to live on while doing the course. You can't get student finance for this, so often it is those with a rich mummy and daddy who pay for their offspring to do it. My son is a barrister, and we are by no means rich, but he managed to get a scholarship, so we're very proud of him. But if he hadn't got this, he was planning to work and save up for several years. It seems such a shame that this still appears to be a career for the wealth.

Now, Michelle from Devon, we were going to get on to that with Lady Hale because she makes that point in her book, and it is a really good book. If you want an explainer of the judicial system, and we talked at the beginning of the interview about the level of ignorance that I think all of us have about exactly how our judicial system operates and which bits are connected to which bits and who is funding it and who's working within it. and we just ran out of time during that interview but there is a really good section in the book where she makes exactly that point and of course what it means is if you look at the top of the pyramid the people who are ending up as judges

and taking these hugely important decisions tend to be from one section of society and it is not representative and it is not diverse and you are often judging people who it would just be helpful if you had more of a shared experience with. So I don't want you to think that Lady Hale hadn't tackled that herself. She was one of the most impressive women, people that I've met in a very long time.

You know, sometimes you meet people and they are so personable. So aside from her extraordinary expertise and knowledge, and it's hard to imagine how long her journey was. And I think probably, you know, the gradient was just going to be steeper. to become the first female president of the Supreme Court. But she was so lovely. She just put everyone who she met along the path of getting to the interview and then doing the interview at their ease.

And I think especially as someone who worked in the family courts, how wonderful it would be to know that somebody who clearly has empathy was going to be in charge of making what can be life-changing decisions for you. So all hail, Lady Hale. Sorry if I look distracted. I'm just watching Donald and Melania meeting the Prince and Princess of Wales on the television above your head.

Sorry. I just got carried away by looking at hats and coats for a minute. I was making a serious point about the diversity of the judiciary. I was listening. No, that's okay. Sometimes we all need pictures. What are our Royals wearing? There's some big hats going on.

Our Kate is wearing red. What sort of burgundy with a lovely hat? She's got a lot of hair, hasn't she? Very, you know, typically Kate-fitted sort of coat dress. Melania's wearing an enormous hat. You can't see her face. Camilla is also wearing a very large blue hat. It's a windy day for hats.

It's risky. Melania's is staying on. I'd say there's a good old couple of hairpins holding that on. It's weird, though, because she'd have to really tip her head up in order to look people in the eye. And then you've got some little ones. all dressed up to the nines as kind of buttons from the pantomime.

Who are they? I don't know. They've got riding hats and breeches and gold all over them. It's fun, isn't it? Truss the Uppy Windsor. That'll come back to want them. Helen comes in to say,

on the subject of meeting the in-laws, my husband's family have a reputation for excellent opening lines. When meeting parents for the first time, my now father-in-law came down the stairs and without a hello, offered big news. Nelson Mandela has died

A few months later My husband's 90-year-old granddad appraised me And then said to him In my experience It's always best to have a look around Before you decide to settle down That's a very passive-aggressive thing to say Isn't it?

I mean there's no good way of taking that really My in-laws are wonderful Says Helen And these are nothing compared to tales of air rifles And unusual freezer contents from other listeners But over the years Many a statement has now been preceded With one of us announcing big news

Helen, thank you. I just love the fact that people are able to be so open about all of these starts in somebody else's family because, you know, I mean, just reading some of them, they are quite shocking and some of them are just really odd. But obviously you've all learnt to make a joke about it and get along together. Absolutely.

And is particularly amusing. Hello, Fee, Jane Jamal and all the crew. I finally, sorry, I first met my boyfriend's parents in Brighton where we met as students at the University of Sussex. in 1982. He was born and raised in Manhattan, and I was an inexperienced 20-year-old from suburban Essex. I was very nervous about meeting his, to me, very exotic parents who were visiting from New York. His father broke the ice by telling this joke. What's the difference between kinky sex and perverted sex? I naturally replied that I didn't know. I mean,

yeah, good answer. You definitely don't want to reply to that. He delighted, told me kinky sex is a feather. Perverted sex is the whole chicken. It's very unnecessary. I haven't had my lunch yet. Anne says 43 years later, we are still married and I enjoyed many more incredibly inappropriate jokes over the years. We'd love to put in an exclamation mark, but don't want to upset anyone.

Thank you, Anne. I lived in Manhattan for 33 years, she says, and became accustomed to driving both ways, as it were. I did find myself on the wrong side of the road once or twice only if I turned into an empty road and there were no other cars to orient me. That's happened to me, actually. and then you see a car coming towards you

and you think, oh yeah, other side. Yeah, absolutely. But I'm glad we both got away with it, Anne. Thank you. Is Anne the one who divulged the fantastic information about the junction system somewhere in the East Midlands that was actually designed

so if we flip to driving on the right or the left or whatever we drive on they'd be able to just change it within seconds. Not that one? I haven't starred that particular email, but I'm on it, kids, and it will be appearing. later on in this podcast series sometimes I go through the emails

I just keep waking up really really early in the morning at the moment just so excited by life and sometimes I am not starring properly and I worry about this and also can I just chuck in a top tip we get inundated with emails over the weekend and if you want to just send them later on in the week

oh yes it would straight to the top of the pile yeah it would make a difference I'm going to read this from Louisa. It's about cold water and I also really need to apologise because I would have ruined the first episode for people this week

because when we were talking about it I did a... in episode one and gave away the ending of episode one. I know. So I do heartily apologise for that. Greetings from the birthplace of Coldwater's creator David Ireland.

Now there's a pronunciation suggestion there but I'm not going to go there if that's all right Louise because I'm not quite sure I'd be able to pull it off and I don't want to cause offence I watch cold water well I mean we always cause offence with our accent so I'm sorry why are you starting now I just I just don't want to

I don't want to up to it the very good burgers of Northern Ireland I watched cold water knowing that David Ireland had written it and I was hooked it is quintessentially David's black humour and I loved it the black humour in his writing was Riley channeled via the genius casting of Eve

Miles and train spotting spud. This is so confusing because Eve Miles is also appearing in, is it the house guest? The guest, the big BBC One, twisty-turning, thriller too. And quite often, my kids have been watching one of them, I've been watching the other,

and you think, oh yes, Eve Miles, I'll put that on, doesn't work. Yes, I'm biased. I'm a fan of his writing, having seen both Cyprus Avenue and Ulster American on stage, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing his latest play, The Fifth Step. Maybe the viewer needs to understand the gritty complexity of growing up in Belfast and Glasgow to fully appreciate the themes in his work,

which all layed bare gore and all in cold water as in his plays. I'd love to hear what other listeners who may be familiar with his plays think of cold water. Surely I can't be the only person not pouring. Wait for it, everybody. Cold water on it. And Louisa has put the groan in herself. I thought it was very good. I commend his plays to listeners.

They're not for the faint-hearted, but neither. will you leave the theatre unmoved? Piers, is Jamar related to sports commentators Sarah currently at the World Athletics Championships in Tokyo? Good question. Somewhere along the line we must be because Mulcarens has hailed from one small bit of West of Ireland. But we are not directly related to one another.

I think she's not part of my strand. Not her first cousin or anything. But yes, it's a question that we ask ourselves within the family often trying to figure out where we think together. Excellent. Good. Good to know. And also I've got a lovely one from Diane, which is about the theme that we introduced yesterday on the depiction of men staying at home with their kids.

I'm going to save that until after the weekend when more people have seen the roses because I think there is plenty more in that, isn't that? They're in a carriage, they're in a carriage. You might want to see this. They're going to be a couple of carriages. Do you know what, that carriage must be so bumpy, rumpy. a very little suspension back in the century it was made and also they've just got nobody to wave at

are they just driving through the estate? They're going around the garden. Go around the garden. They're just going around the garden in a couple of carriages. This is hilarious with a lot of horses and there's a lot of red and gold going on. But yeah, Donald's got nobody, he's just having to chat to Charles.

And it's interesting, Charles and Donald were in one carriage and Camilla and Melania in another. What's that about? carriage would you pick? Oh, I mean, oh, that's tricky. I'm sad to say, I'd pick the Donald carriage. I mean, it would be outrageous and possibly only one of us would come out of it alive, but Melania doesn't seem chatty. You're telling me. I mean, this is a woman who said more on the back of a jacket than she has. Yes, actually, in front of a microphone.

You know when you're in a car with someone who you don't know very well and you have to do all the heavy lifting? Yes, it would be that. It would be that. But then I think that Queen Camilla's side eye would be maybe something that you could be on the receiving end of and enjoy them. Kate William get their own carriage at the back.

Well, that's nice. That's nice. But you're right. It would be terrific, wouldn't it, if we could have just the tintsiest, weancy, a little bit of kind of audio interception involved in all of that. Anyway, look, good luck to them. And, you know, maybe if you're a pigeon, give them a wave.

If you're a little mole, give them a wave. There's some sailors. Wave at some sailors, well, that's always worked for me. Now, if you are a fan of the DJ Johnny Walker and many of us were, then reading both sides now, the book written by his wife, Tiggie, is a wonderful affair. You learn so much about the man away from the microphone, but it's as if we all feel that we might have known that man ourselves

and that's the trick that the decent radio presenter pulls off. It's a book about love, it's a book about caring. Tiggie looked after Johnny through cancer. He looked after her through cancer too but he then developed lung disease and Johnny died on New Year's Eve

24 at the age of 79. Now he was a tricky man to live with and he often said to Tiggie when times got tough you chose this life but none of us really choose the darkest of times when we're looking after ill people. We love 24-7 to the point of exhaustion. We accept that we will do it, but sometimes it's just not nice. The book is also a love letter to a union that was spicy from the start, and we'll start at the beginning, when Tiggie's

Monday night of yoga and calm in her flat in North London got interrupted, and she headed off back to Soho to have a drink that would change her life. So what happened at that drink? When did you first meet Johnny Walker? Johnny Walker on the 10th of September, 2001, the night before 9-11. Weirdly, very strange timing. For all of us, that was a strange, profound time, wasn't it? Well, the few days that happened afterwards were. And he had wanted to meet me. He was reconnecting with this chap I was having a summer fling with called Gordon Haskell, who was a musician. And he went, would you like to come and meet Johnny Walker? And I went, Johnny Walker, isn't he dead? I mean, I literally had never listened to Radio 2.

I didn't know that he was still alive. I hadn't heard him since I was 13. Showbus is very cruel, too. Very cruel. Clearly, I wasn't a fan, which was obviously, I think, to my advantage to Johnny, because he knew that anything I felt came from a real place, not a sort of obsession place. Anyway, Gordon met up with him and Johnny went, where's Tiggie? And he said, oh, she's doing yoga tonight.

He went, oh, well, I want to meet her. Because Johnny had had a psychic premonition that he had to meet me. when he'd heard my name. So I went, oh, gosh, all right, then. Go to the Union Club. I'll phone up and tell them you're coming. And I was rather peeved at having to get sort of dressed into real clothes again, put on makeup and everything else.

And then I walked down, and they were the last two people I saw in the club. And Johnny stood up with his hands outstretched to me and just walked to me. And it was quite unbelievable because I knew him. And I don't mean I recognised him because I never knew really knew what you. Johnny Walker even looked like, but I knew his soul and I knew it was like seeing my best friend for the first time in this life. What then happened to Gordon? Well, Gordon, it has to be said, didn't have the best evening.

Because Johnny and I sat sort of next to each other with Gordon on the other end of the sofa and Johnny and I just kept agreeing on everything. I mean, Johnny was playing a game because every time I said something like, well, I love yoga, he'd go, yes, I love yoga. He'd never done it to me. but you know we even found out we were the same blood type because we've both been doing the eat for your blood type diet it was just a bizarre evening Gordon was at the end of the sofa being very

grumpy and very negative and Johnny and I were being hugely positive and at the end when Gordon and I went back to my flat Gordon went well John Johnny would definitely get you on his show I went well why would he get somebody who produces TV commercials on his show he went oh I know he wants to see you again I know he does And Gordon very, very, very sweetly recognised what was going on and he ended things. It's quite some love affair, isn't it, that you and Johnny had? And throughout the book, you do keep reminding the reader that one of the reasons why it worked

was because you're very different people, quite kind of yin-yan. but when somebody becomes ill that kind of balance can often really, really change and it's a fascinating read because you deal with that change, don't you? You couldn't possibly have seen at that lovely, spicy, exciting start

of your relationship how things would go and things did go south pretty quickly actually. Well, they went south on our honeymoon. I will say that Johnny always had a great sense of timing and marrying me literally weeks before he sort of fell really ill was brilliant timing clever man

and it was a baptism of fire our first year of marriage because that's when he went through his cancer and his was a really serious cancer and it nearly did finish him off and we had never lived together before Fee so we bought this flat that I'd done up and was just ready for us to move into when we came back from honeymoon and it was just I really did think what have I done

Who have I married? Because the Johnny portrayed was not the same as the Johnny who was ill, but no one is. When people have got a really bad diagnosis, it does things to you. You live in a state of fear and Johnny was afraid. He really was. So it was. I had to be very adaptable very quickly. But also, Johnny was that extraordinary contradiction, wasn't he?

Because the man that we knew who came across the radio was this wonderfully confident. and larger than life, dedicated to music, funny. I mean, he was a glamorous kind of wild man, wasn't he? But actually, the reality, as is often the case, was quite an introverted person away from the microphone. You are absolutely right, Fee. The place that Johnny was most happy in the world was in a radio studio like this.

He was safe. He was in control. He was in command. He loved communicating. He knew how to. He loved choosing music. And that was his life. But you're right.

Outside the studio, he was an introvert. And, you know, we're certainly at the beginning of our marriage definitely had, you know, a good stream of insecurity in him, which I would like to say improved through our marriage. I think he found his confidence. You asked some very interesting and philosophical questions throughout the book and one of them is why people want to be famous. Why did Johnny want to be famous? He didn't want to be famous. He wanted to share music and he wanted to be on the radio and that's the best place to share music. It was all about that. And in fact, he himself, you know, we talked a lot about this last year. And Johnny always shied away from television. And he said, and actually, I'm really glad I did.

He said it was cowardly of me to shy away from it because I'm sure I would have got used to it. But by shying away, it's meant that I've had this life of sort of fame in inverted comments where you have the power to influence people and have a nice guess, but you're not recognised in the street. And I think Johnny's enjoyed not being recognized. recognised in the street. And did he enjoy people thinking that he was a kind of wild man of rock? Oh, I don't know if he enjoyed people thinking that. He may well have done, but it was what he was. He couldn't really help himself. I mean, there was the before rehab and the after rehab, Johnny, and I met the after rehab Johnny.

Not sure I would have fallen head over heels in love with the pre-rehab Johnny. He would have been too wild for me there. Why do we still celebrate the wild man, Tickey? Because we do. We do, Fee, and you've celebrated. You've spoken to me in the past and celebrated. He said, oh, I hope he's still smoking, or whatever. And quite a few people in the industry who know him, especially women go, oh, I hope he's still knocking back booze and having a fag.

It's quite funny. We celebrate it because there's not a lot of wildness is allowed today. We live in quite a squeaky, clean environment today. Because if you do anything naughty or wild, you're castigated by everybody. and I think Johnny just represents the last of a group of people who came through who were allowed to be wild. I mean, you know, the bands in the 70s were crazy and so were some of the DJs. Johnny probably being the main one, I would think. And I think we celebrated because we wish we were a bit like that.

And I think part of my attraction to Johnny, you know, he called me a straight with my feet on the ground, was what he needed. But I think I needed some of his wildness. So it really was a ying and yang relationship. We both wore off on each other a little bit. There are many times reading the book, though, that I got quite annoyed with Johnny Walker on your behalf because I felt that he was living the life that he wanted to live. And perhaps sometimes you weren't being able to live the life that you wanted to live. But you tell me, because I'm just reading a book and this is your love. Well, I think, look, it's really difficult, Fia and I've thought about it a lot through writing the book. And I go, oh, gosh, well, I stopped producing commercials, which was my

career, because Johnny really couldn't handle it once he'd been so ill. And it was all about the Johnny Walker show, you know, both in the studio and in life. It became about me supporting him and I almost feel like I'm the very final woman of a generation of women who would still agree to do that. I believe you me, I'm really quite cross with myself. But I also think I did the right thing for our marriage to survive and for Johnny to survive. He needed, he sort of needed quite a bit of input to keep him going. Was he good at caring for you when you had your breast cancer? He was absolutely wonderful when I had breast cancer. I have to say, I mean, he may be wild, but he was also a gentleman and a very good moral person.

And he was brilliant in that, not that he did cooking or anything like that, because he couldn't cook, but he took me to absolutely every hospital appointment and there were over 70. He was there listening to me twittering on about how I hated chemotherapy because he'd been through it, he understood it, and he literally let me rab it on and also make up my mind about things. I wanted to stop chemo and he just said, I will support what you want to do. And in the end, they gave me therapy and I continued with it. And he just went, I'm so glad. I'm so glad. But he was very stoic through my cancer and was just a very strong rock for me to have. So he had his cancer from which he had recovered. And as you say, it was nearly fatal. He was extremely

unwell. You returned to the microphone. You got better from your breast cancer. And you would hope, wouldn't you, that the universe would then shine on you both. But that wasn't the case. It really wasn't the case. And there was, I just remember this very poignant evening last year when I put Johnny to bed and I would put him to bed because he needed a lot of support to get to bed. And I sat with him and he took my hand and he just went, we've been set so many challenges. He said, it's really quite unfair. But then I think you also had to remember, Fee, that we had lots of lovely bits, which is why I talk about the stardust in the book, because you really have to remember. Lots of people have terrible things happen in their marriage or

their lives. And I suppose it's just about believing and going forward, and you have to remember the good bits. We've talked before, haven't we, about your role as carer. And the last time I spoke to you was when Johnny was really very unwell. And you were so honest, you came on the podcast and you talked about the darkness of some days and the place that your head had ended up in. And I don't want to make you relive horrible times to you, but we had such a response to that interview because people were just so grateful to hear somebody talking about the reality of caring. So without prying too much into the darkness, what's a day like when it's really, really not going well? When it's not going well and Johnny isn't well and there were accidents and there's just so much happening, phones going and everything else. When it's just, I think at the end of the day, it's fatigue mixed with feeling trapped, mixed with not knowing how long this will go on and not knowing how you can go on coping.

I suppose I spent a year, so many carers are in this situation. you're just carrying, carrying, carrying absolutely everything. And you have no idea how long this will last. That was something both Johnny and I found quite hard. Johnny wanted desperately to know when he was going to die. And he was diagnosed in 2019. Yes, he was. With lung disease.

Yes, and he was given a five-year prognosis. And once we got to the five-year mark in August last year, you know, you felt you were on borrowed time. and he was very keen to release me. I mean, at my worst, at my worst, and I do believe in being honest because I'm sure there are other people who have thought this that they might not have voiced it to their partner.

I just went, Johnny, are you ever going to die? Because my biggest fear, actually, my ultimate thing was I thought I'd go before him because I was so worn out and I was very scared my cancer would come back because I just couldn't cope with it. And I'm being really, I'm not being poor me about that. I'm just saying what I honestly felt at that time.

And it became quite overwhelming. He just went on and on and on and on. And Johnny was a strong man. And so he didn't want to, but he was desperate to die by the end. You do a lot of work for carers UK. You're an ambassador for them now. What do you think you needed at that time? What have you learned about caring that you could helpfully

pass on for people who will be listening thinking yep that's me respite is the number one thing you've got to have people in place to give you a break because I think if you go on without a break you you will collapse and in my case fantastic friends or family and if I was going away for a few days I had a schedule somebody coming at lunchtime somebody stay the night somebody do dinner and that was good and towards the end I when I felt I'd used all my favours up I started paying for carers but of course paid carers are fantastically expensive thing to do that's a real treat so that's so i would say respite and find some form of support mechanism for yourself because it's very easy as a carer to totally forget your own needs you just don't realize you have any needs and you do

you have huge needs more needs than most so whatever it takes exercise homeopathy acupuncture You just find something outside the home and the caring situation where you can vent or get support. One of the most moving sentences in what is a very moving book, I thought, was I'm not held by anybody and I need to be. And Johnny had really gone into himself by then. That's a line that you write towards the end of his life. And that must be so, so hard. Well, you are already grieving everything you had before. And Johnny was very tactile.

You know, when I was cooking, he would come and throw his arms around me, going, what were we having to for supper tonight? And he was very affectionate. And when you're in a wheelchair, he was in a wheelchair, I'm stood up. You're on completely different planes. And so it didn't go through his head to come up and hug me, because he couldn't physically. He would have knocked me over.

And when I said that to him, he just put up the arms of the wheelchair. he put up the footrest and he just opened his arms and I leant down and I guess that was our last big hug. There's so much machinery involved as well. Oh my goodness. Well there is if somebody's got a lung disease. There's oxygen machines everywhere and tubes which you fall over and he got tied up with in his wheelchair. There was a lot of machinery but that, thank heavens there is that machinery because that prolongs their existence. But yes, your home does become quite medicalised.

depending on what your partner is suffering from. So it was quite nice to take the home back, put down the rugs again. Yeah, for sure. What's it like when you are the partner of somebody who is loved by strangers because Johnny was adored by strangers? When you lose them, is that quite weird? Well, I'm on a book tour at the moment and, you know, I've done three nights in the last week where it has been full of Johnny's fans.

And they want to say how much he meant to them and how much he loved them. And I think it's, actually, I think it's lovely because we're keeping the memory of Johnny alive. So it's not weird because I always knew he was a radio man. And all through our marriage, he would get hundreds of emails or cards and people telling him how much he meant to them. So I knew that already. So it hasn't surprised me at all. And, you know, there's two reasons for me writing this book. One is to help other carers who may recognize things and it may give them a,

a little bit of support and also for Johnny's fans. It's a sort of a thank you to them. They've been so supportive, so loyal, and they will know him a little bit better, warts and all at the end of this book. But without doubt, I wrote it as a love letter to Johnny

and, you know, a tribute to him even though he was a little tricky at times. You didn't mention the cancelled wedding. No, well, I mean, it's a tricky one. We had this brief conversation before the microphones went on that actually, I think when you're writing a book, you're in a very safe private space and only a couple of people are reading it. And I sometimes really feel for people who then come into a radio studio, there are thousands of people listening. And I might ask you something that I think is a perfectly valid question. But actually, it's incredibly painful.

So, I mean, by all means, tell us about the council wedding if you'd like to. No, it's just one of the things. I think when people read the book, it's the first. first thing they go, oh Johnny, oh Johnny, but Johnny was like that. I was very, very nervous. I think probably about three weeks before the book came out. I was terrified. I was really thinking, oh, have I been completely loyal and will people take Johnny's foibles in the way that it was written? And in fact, people have loved the book. People have loved the honesty. Yeah. And the council wedding just very briefly, I mean, obviously everything turned out to rise in the end because you did get married.

but he basically got cold feet and you had to call it all off. But you went on your honeymoon together. Oh, this is the cheek of the man. I had booked the honeymoon and he said, what will you do with the honeymoon? I said, well, I'm going. It was the Residencia in Deo, in Miorca, one of the most beautiful hotels in the world. And we paid for it. And I said, well, I'm still going.

And he went, I'm coming with you. The damn chic. So apparently the wedding was off, but the relationship wasn't. Oh, Johnny. And it's another line in the book that was. really stay with me because you had to tell everybody that it was off and you say I was very brave that day. He didn't actually really have to do anything. Didn't do a thing. No. Gosh. Right. What are you up to now? Because I don't think you afford yourself quite enough opportunity to talk about your own

talents and it's only towards the end of the book. You let slip that you'd produced a short film and you won all these awards for it, Tiggie. Well, yes, I managed to squeak that in last year. I think throughout, even though I gave up producing commercials during my marriage to Johnny, I did, I've kept a project on the back burner all the way through and that is a film script idea which I have written which is based on a book by somebody that my father got me to read when I was 16 it's a long involved story but that is sort of coming to fruition now I mean Johnny has become my celestial producer I do believe

things have been falling into place so I'm very much hoping that that will film next autumn So yes, I did write, direct and produce a little short film last autumn. And did you know what I loved about that fee? Because all our marriage, it had been about Johnny's career. And I was able to just to squeak something out and go, actually, Johnny, this is what I'm capable of. And he saw it. And he just sobbed when he saw it because it was, it is a little 10-minute film, which is just so very beautiful.

And I put the main character in a wheelchair, because obviously somebody being in a wheelchair, was very pertinent to where I was. And yes, it's just a little taster for what might come. Okay. And which awards did it win? Well, the new... You're not used to blowing my trumpet. The Chicago Independent Film Awards, the Tokyo Independent Film Awards, and the New York Film and Cinematography Awards.

Best New Director. Right. Well, massive congratulations. Thank you, me. I can't wait to see more from that stable. It's so lovely to talk to you, Tiggi. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. And, I mean, the book is extraordinary because it is about caring, it is about love.

But it's also, if you like radio, it's just the most fascinating detail with quite a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff revealed. So it works on lots of levels. So congratulations to you for it. Tiggie Walker, and her book is called Both Sides Now. If you are a carer, I think it is a really wonderful description

right from the top of her heart and the bottom of her heart about how difficult some days were and she is a very capable writer so there are some really really moving bits in there and also it's always strange to read about somebody I mean Johnny Walker was just in my radio world really for my entire radio listening life

so to hear how he was at home and you know Tiggie as we've talked about doesn't kind of spare his blushes is wonderful actually. It's not damning. You know, all of the things that she has to say about him, I think he knew that she said about him. So it's just quite an insight into how people cope

with being chucked in to the very deep end of caring. All of your thoughts are welcome. It's Jane and Fee at times.com. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio. Homes Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salsbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.