Off Air... with Jane and Fi - 'A rampant cropped-hair feminist' (with Felicity Spector)

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

It's the last podcast of the week and we're tumbling into Thursday... literally. It's Jane's last day flying semi-solo, holding down the fort, and battening down the hatches - she really does it all! Jane and Eve talk men in power, the best cinemas in the city, bilingualism, and life without a loaf.Plus, television producer and journalist Felicity Spector discusses her book ‘Bread and War’, ahead of the fourth anniversary of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What did you just say, Jane? Oh, God. It's Thursday, and what Eve wants to draw your attention to, and it's quite cruel, actually, is an incident that happened about 45 minutes ago. Do you want to explain or not? No, why don't you do it? You're about to do a pre-record for our upcoming guest,

and she was on the Zoom call, and Jane realized she'd forgotten her phone, so she quickly dashed out the studio. I am quite a quick mover. My God, you were rapid, and then you dashed back in, and there was two wheelie chairs next to each other. I'm not sure which one you were aiming for, but you landed in between them. And I fell on, our so, their teeth, onto the floor. And I said, oh, Jane's here, Jane's here.

I just said, oh, no, she's not, she's gone. And, of course, you'll be glad to hear that serious injury was actually avoided. That didn't happen, because if it had, Eve would have been much nicer than she's currently being. She's also very upset that were no cameras rolling at this moment. Jane said, well, you've got your memories. I could have broken the internet if they've been video.

When you tried to get back up, yes. Because both the chairs were on wheels, they were kind of getting away from you. Okay. Right. So it's Thursday. It's third, actually, it's quite a, it's quite a big day here in the United Kingdom, isn't it, Eve? It's huge. It is February the 19th, 2026.

And I mean, I've got to just, I've mentioned this before, but I am in a very, very small group of people, probably women, for whom Prince Andrew, as he then was, was our first crush. And it's a long, long time ago that he was in a position to be anybody's first crush. But nevertheless, in the spirit of transparency, I've got to say that it was my experience. So my 1979 Teenage Diary has got a small image of him that I cut out and sellotaped to the cover of the diary. And I've still got it at home.

But today, he's no longer a prince, of course, he was arrested. So for a string of very sensible legal reasons, we're not allowed to discuss any of this if he's charged, but at the moment he hasn't been charged. So it's a sort of fair game, although obviously you've got to be very careful that you don't prejudice any future proceedings. And because he was your childhood crush,

it meant that you already knew that today is also his birthday. His birthday, yeah. And he's actually officially a pensioner today. He's 66 and could therefore get his state pension should he need it, which is the way things are going. Seasoned out of his freedom pass. He would, well, he would also get, yes, if you were living in London. It's ironic considering where he's sat right now.

Yeah, thank you, Eve. And we've just actually done a very short conversation with my Times Radio, DJ colleague Hugo Rifkin and he had said earlier that the arrest of Andrew Markbat in Windsor is a curious thing because it sort of makes you feel if you're British, okay, obviously these are deeply serious allegations

and some really troubling aspects of all this obviously. But at least what our Prime Minister said about nobody being above the law appears to be true. Obviously we don't know what's going to happen. It's just worth saying that across the Atlantic very little appears to have happened. But at least here, stuff is going on.

Proceedings run away. We don't know what lies ahead. There is a sense of some very minor satisfaction today. Yeah, there is actually. Yeah, there is. And I'm sure I speak for everybody else in the UK, my WhatsApp groups have been absolutely popping off, as we say. That's what young people say, isn't it?

We do say that, yeah. Now, shall we start with some public service? Because we've had an email from a listener who is bringing her daughter, it's Dawn, Hi Dawn, Dawn, Dawn says I'm a long-term listener, no pressure, don't know how I'd live without you. God, I mean, that does feel like a bit of pressure.

Just a quickie, she says, my daughter, who's 19, and I are coming to London this weekend, and I was thinking of going to a cinema, because I feel I know you so well, and I know it's one of your favourite pastimes, James, Jane, Jane? James. I don't know. I know a few. And I know Jane is one of your favourite pastimes.

I've wondered if you could recommend one based on your years of cinema-going experience. We live in Yorkshire, don't come to London that often, and I'd love to make it special. Okay, well, you've got a favourite place, haven't you, a favourite favourite cinema? Well, I think you can't really go wrong with a picture house.

I like a picture house, and there's a really nice picture house in East Dulwich near me. I just think there's a lovely environment there. The bar's always quite nice. I've gone to the cafe before and just worked when I work from home. You could just work there. Yeah, it's just a really nice space. Yeah, okay.

So there's that. That's not very central, is it? It's not particularly central, but I think generally picture houses are my recommendation. Fee's spoken before about the Everyman and how you're sat there watching a film when someone's having a burg or passed across you. I'm not really into that.

Not for everyone. No. And I would recommend if you want a cinema that is a quieter and sophisticated experience where you can certainly have alcohol in your seat. There's a very nice community-spirited cinema in Chiswick. I know you're going to laugh because that's not central

but you can access it very easy on public transport it's not that far away from central London but if you want a big... Well then neither is he's duller. No, okay. I'm going to pitch house central tonight to see Wuthering Heights I haven't been there before

I'll let you know. Okay but is that that central that's on... Picture house central. Yeah there's a... I haven't recovered from that falling over. Mentally, I'm scarred. That's on Shavsbury.

from you? I don't know. I should know. Or somewhere. I would also say Dawn, sometimes you can't go wrong with just Lester Square. Just bite the bullet and go to Lester Square. I mean, they've got massive screens there, loads of options. Shalfrey Avenue, it is. It is. Sheldsbury Avenue. There you go. I think that's because my daughter's also going to see that film, but on Friday night. At Pitchhous Central. Yeah. It's the only place you could get in. So whatever anybody's saying about Wuthering Heights, people are going, aren't they? My God. Cultural moment.

Yeah, well, we'll get your review next week. I can't wait. Right, so Dawn, I hope that helps. But it depends what you want, whether you and your daughter want the big, big screen central London experience or whether you're looking for more comfortable seating and possibly something bubbly in a glass next to you. But we've given you some options there. I hope you enjoy it. Have a good time.

Let us know how it goes. Hope your daughter enjoys it too. And actually, remember, regular listeners will recall because they all have been thinking about nothing else. I went to the cinema last week and the film couldn't be shown due to a... technical issue. So don't hate Jane's recommendation.

I can't tell you anything about H's for Hawk because it never started. So Janet is from tooting near Ballam, she boasts. After your disastrous cinema trip, Jane, it reminded me about one I had a couple of years ago. Halfway into the film, oh, this is even more

frustrating, it just cut out. We were plunged into near darkness and all the fire alarms went off. Rather stressfully, with two small children attached, we all shuffering. pulled slowly out into the rain at the back of the building. It was chaos. There were hardly any staff around.

No one knew what was going on. And we had to queue at the front door waiting for the fire brigade to give the all-clear before we slowly filed back in. After a few attempts, the film couldn't be restarted. And we had to queue again for a refund voucher. This was never used as we were on holiday. And it couldn't be transferred. To this day, I've still only seen the first half of the secret life of pets.

Should I try again? I'd be glad you stayed dry and warm at least Keep up with the positivity And what Janet, who's in Tooting near Balham describes as occasional giggles Okay, right Just occasional then That sounds a very alarming experience

That sounds quite scary It's quite unpleasant actually Isn't it when you're sort of lost in the film And then it just goes Yeah, the lights come on It's quite fronting Mind you, I was battling through the second part of the Tony Blair documentary last night

And my internet connection just went off Do you know what I did? Listener, I just went to bed. I just gave up. Sometimes you've got to take it as a sign. Because they're not going to then show the second half of the film for you the next day. Secret Life of Pets, I'd let it go.

Okay. Ladies, I thought you might like this witty reply I saw on Instagram, this is Kay, for those oaths who still tell women they see in public to smile, okay? This is from someone on Instagram who said, who should have been asked, what's the best comeback to a man who tells you to smile more?

this contributor said someone told a story of saying you go first and when the man smiled she said good boy and just walked away okay that's excellent Marie regular correspondent has a question for Eve I'm wondering if Eve came across

horse girl on her trip to Berlin she's a successful musician and DJ who plays techno music while wearing a horse head mask which looks like a glamourized version of a horse a little bit like my little pony I think it's a hell of a commitment wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I saw that email. I have to say I didn't come across her, but I think there are a few DJs who do things like that where they've had big heads on to kind of keep their anonymity. And it just looks incredibly hot. Yes. Very claustrophobic. The other day, I was watching Liverpool play Brighton.

I think it was in the FA Cup. I can't be absolutely certain about that. And Brighton's nickname, as you'll know, is... Seagulls. Thank you. I said with real commitment. And there was one fan in the crowd, just the one wearing a seagull's head.

Oh, you've got a respect. Well, I did respect it and they kept cutting to him. I mean, Brighton were beaten 3 or 4-0. Yeah. So it wasn't the greatest. But anyway, why, I mean, I'm not even certain the guy could see out of his seagull head. Yeah, but he got on the camera, didn't he?

Got on the big screen. He was sitting with a young lad who, well, I will have to assume with some sort of relative, and the kid looks so depressed and bored by the whole thing. Oh. You know, I'm quite ashamed to be connected to an individual wearing a bird head. But anyway, I sometimes think, I could be wrong about this, that people take their children to football too young, too early.

And sometimes the kids just don't want to be there. And you do occasionally see them in the crowd, and they look really bored. Because it is quite long, isn't it? It's cold and a bit miserable. Yeah, they want to be at home with a nice screen. They don't want to be standing around watching football. I also really, you know, when a team's losing

and it cuts to a child who's really upset by it, it breaks my heart. I feel like they've got in front. vested too young and they can't deal with it. It's really, it makes really sad. I think you should, timing is everything. My dad didn't take me to any football match until I was 10 and I was, that felt like the right time to me.

And I have to say, I'd heard words that day. Because it's quite a mature environment. I think it certainly is. And this was Anfield in Liverpool in 1974 even. Yeah. There weren't many women. There were very few young girls. And health and safety wasn't as bigger thing.

I mean, for sorts of very sad reasons. It's much safer at football now. But so I was just propped up. I was allowed to sit on one of the crush barriers. So I had a great view because I was tiny. Oh, Lou Jane. Really good view, but I wasn't prepared for the language. I wasn't upset by it because I just never heard those words.

Probably a bit mystified, yeah. I'm just totally mystified. This is from Ruth, who says, Dear Eve and Jane, I'm not bilingual, I wish, but because we lived in France for many years, my three sons are, we were talking about translation, weren't we yesterday? And Ruth says, French children's literature is notoriously rubbish,

and the boys were frequently encouraged or forced to read French translations of English books at school. We were constantly being told they needed to read to improve their academic French, but the boys really loathed reading translations of their favourites. Harry Potter, his dark materials and the like. They said they could tell and it was never quite right. This is in no way a criticism of the translators who do a remarkable job,

but it is interesting that there are differences in nuances and some things are slightly lost in translation. Now my boys make lofty pronouncements. Oh, I could only read that in its original language, while I suppress both pride and slightly murderous thought, admits Ruth, yeah. you are allowed to occasionally have that slightly conflicted

opinion of what your children come out with God knows I do Ruth not similarly afflicted with bilingualism I'm trying to decide whether I should buy Giselle Pellico's book in French giving myself a proper workout and realistically not finishing it or in English to give it my full attention

I can't really ask Eve about this because she hasn't read the book I have read it and I think if you're going to invest in a copy and as I've said and I really need to emphasise this I'm not triggered by the content because I've never had such a terrible experience obviously I've never had any kind of experience

of sexual assault in the manner that is illustrated in that book I would say English and just read as much of it as you can You said it was quite well written is it quite accessible Yeah it is accessible and she had a great ghost writer

and so the book is not so it doesn't take you It's not a traditional timeline. It goes back in time to her childhood, which was pretty challenging, actually. His childhood, which was awful, but that's no excuse. And in fact, Giselle Pelico's lawyer, I thought, made such a string of powerful points.

The husband, yes, he was brought up around abuse. But as Stefan Babineau, who we interviewed earlier in the week, Giselle Pelico's lawyer pointed out, it is much more likely that a young girl will be sexually assaulted as a child. than a young boy and very few of those female victims of sexual abuse end up committing hideous acts in later life. Such a good point. I mean, I'm really glad he made that point.

Elle has sent an email to say, Stefan Babineau, I thought was remarkable. What an eloquent, brilliant, empathetic and wonderful human. I think him talking about this case should be played in every secondary school in the country as an example of allyship to women. after the conversation about the need to keep survivors at the centre of the story, I felt Stefan really exemplified this, his description of how he prepared Giselle so kindly to watch those videos with no surprise, how he answered your question about what they all had in common,

and his wishes for Giselle's future. She is clearly an amazing, wonderful and strong survivor. I'm in awe of her, and I'll certainly read her book now. She is rightly and absolutely at the centre of my thoughts. but I just wanted to express that I'm so thankful she had this lovely human in her corner and thank you for bringing

their voices to us well there we go Elle thank you for that thank you for that very thoughtful contribution our guest yesterday Maggie Adairn Dame Maggie Adairn talking about astrophysics and space

I was really interested in her experience of so many different schools and so many different addresses and if you have time over the weekend if you are one of those people who just through no fault of your own, just family circumstances over which you had no control,

please do let us know what it is like to have such a challenging experience of childhood going to just so many different environments. You know that bit where you go to secondary school, which for many of us, I mean I would say it was for me quite difficult, but that's the only change I made in my education. Yeah, I was the exact same, but I can't even relate because I also went to the secondary school

that the majority of my primary school go on to. So even then, I went with friends, I went with familiar faces and we were almost kind of prepared in primary school to go to this specific secondary school. Okay. So what you're really saying is that your suffering only started when you started working

at, on a fair. That is about thank you for recognising my struggle. Rachel, today I was listening to Jane and Eve, watch out Fee. That sounds like a great podcast name. Fees back next week. We need to make that very clear.

Thank God. And she's been... We both wanted to come back. Today I was listening to Jane. In the car with my two young boys in tow. They normally tune you out. Oh. Quite hurtful.

But today, the nine-year-old responded to Jane's question about reading Barbara Pim with could you pipe down? I am reading. As if you were in the passenger seat. I'd like to say he'd be more polite if you were actually. in it, but we're working on it.

Right. You've been told. I've been absolutely schooled by that lad. Crikey. Right, and this is a very, very important, but I've got to be honest, I mean, it's a very, very serious email. Or actually, quickly, I just want to bring in one about butter, which is obviously nowhere near as serious, from somebody who is a business development manager at a fine food company. In fact, the fine food company. And whenever we talk or I talk about food price inflation

And I think at the moment It is running at about 3.6% in the UK That's food price inflation And when you know when you say inflation's gone down to 3% You've always got to bear in mind It's taking me about 40 years to understand this That everything's still going up It's just going up by 3%

And not by 150% As it is by the way in some more troubled nations It is eye-watering still Yeah, 3% does still mean, and particularly with food price inflation at 3.6, stuff is still going up. I always think butter seems incredibly expensive. Austin points out, butter has actually reduced considerably in cost. It should not be around £2 for 250 grams. The supermarkets have not reduced their prices, as they should have done.

So it's just worth bearing in mind that sometimes it's the supermarkets who are taking us all for a ride. and I know that they don't always pay the farmers what they should get either. This is from an anonymous contributor. Much as I hate the depressing topic of Epstein, I just wanted to add something to the discussion. I know we keep saying, where are the other men? But seriously, where are they? With his international network, his lavish lifestyle and prolific abuse,

there must have been literally hundreds of people facilitating these activities involved indirectly, if not personally, enjoying the services that he offered. Why are none of them saying anything? Right. And our listener goes on to say that she has a deeply personal experience in this very unpleasant area. I know this because when my daughter disclosed that her father, my ex-husband, was abusing her sexually, I felt an overwhelming desire to believe that there must be some other explanation and to pretend it wasn't happening. I instinctively knew that so many worlds,

as we knew it, were about to literally explode and I didn't know how I'd have the strength to cope or manage, and I just wanted to bury my head in the sand and for it all to go away. All it would have taken would have been for me to dismiss my child's voice, and she would probably have then hidden a truth for even longer. Wow, I'm so sorry you had to go through this. I cannot imagine anything much tougher than this. I really can't. Luckily, my head ruled my heart and I went through the motions automatically. Voluntary organisations took matters out of my hands and then the police got involved. I should say, as an aside, the police were fantastic throughout. At one point, I asked the two police officers, they happened to be women, if any men ever admitted what they'd done, they told me that

that so far in their careers, never. Not one. And as you can see from the 50 men charged with rape in the Pelico case, despite the evidence against them, only one pleaded guilty. And yet there are more guilty rapists hiding in plain sight with people protecting them. Is this purely the power of denial when they must know what they've done? And this is what I mean, I guess, about this whole story being so triggering for so many people. I mean if you have had an experience like that in your personal life

you must just feel just sick sick to the pit of your stomach every time it crops up. Because it does feel quite water wall at the moment. Well it is so just going outside and being confronted with your own trauma is a really difficult position to be in. No it really is and

I'm just so sorry that so many people I mean I wear two heads. I wear two heads. here. I think if that makes any sense. I am a rampant, crop-haired feminist. I was once described as that by the Daily Mail. Really? Yeah. I did have shorter hair at the time. But also someone, because I've been in news for 185 years now, I do know when a story is quotes, good and by good. I mean, it's a story that people want to talk about in the pub, in the bus stop, in their personal lives, whatever. And that's what this story is about Epstein, Andrew, and the rest of the rotten lot of them. But it is also so upsetting.

If you are in a position to be able to listen to your interview with Stefan, I would really recommend it because in a way hearing the care and the delicate way he dealt with Giselle, coming from a man, I felt slightly restored a little bit of faith for me as a listener and offset a little bit of the horrible, not that it really can in any way, but it did slightly lighten the load of what you're listening to because he just took it so seriously. Yeah, I agree with you.

I hadn't thought about that in those terms, but you're right, actually. But a lot of people won't want to listen to it. Yeah, which is completely understandable. Yeah, but Eve does make a good point there. He's a good man. He was doing all the right things, saying all the right things,

and his answer to the question, did the rapists have anything in common? well, yes, they're all men, was an obvious one, but also it's such a powerful point. And he made it, and I'm really grateful to him for doing it. So that was on Tuesday's edition of Offair. Shall we bring in today's guest? Let's.

Now, you did assist me earlier. Yep. The chain dictated. Yeah, because we cannot just be, we've had quite a busy morning. No, you've been very busy, and it's just you holding down this fort. I've got a fort, and I'm holding it down. It's like the expression batten down the hatches when there's a storm. We've got quite few to batten in this big old building.

Yeah. Thank you. Some anecdotes there, but we're bringing those to you. Right, our guest is Felicity Spector, and the great news about Felicity is that she is a listener to the podcast. She's also a brilliant journalist, works for Channel 4, and she had emailed into Offair last summer. I'm just looking at this.

Last summer she emailed. And she was out and about in Ukraine, as she often is, and she says, I have traveled more than six and a half thousand kilometers on Ukrainian trains and your podcast has accompanied me on many of those long journeys. Well, we're very proud to have done it. And Felicity is the author of a book called Bread and War. Now, on the blurb, on the back of the book, it says food is a weapon, a lifeline and a means of survival. And that really tells you all about this book.

It's a Ukrainian story of food, bravery and hope. Felicity is a senior Channel 4 News journalist with Ukrainian heritage of her own, and she just felt compelled to get involved following the Russian invasion. It's almost exactly four years ago now. Felicity is a foodie. She's a keen baker, and she's been supporting the non-profit organisation Bake for Ukraine. It now has three mobile bakeries and provides much-needed sustenance to people in isolated areas of the country. Now, many of you will know it has been a truly brutal winter in Ukraine,

and continuous Russian strikes on infrastructure have left so many people without electricity and without water. Yesterday, peace talks once again concluded without any real breakthrough. So I asked Felicity about her personal ties to the country. I never met my grandparents. They died a long time before I was born. So when they left, it was more than 100 years ago. But I'd always been really, really fascinated with the whole region,

but never really spent a lot of time in Ukraine, very sadly. very brief visit when I was the Moscow producer back in the early 90s when it was declared independent. And I kept meaning to go. And I now really, really wish I'd gone before the full-scale war because, you know, it would have been amazing to see it without all this trauma that's going on there at the moment. There are some positives, not least that you went back to Denepro. And you discovered that there was a flourishing Jewish community there again. Yes, that's right. It's one of the biggest Jewish communities in Ukraine. also in Odessa, where I frequently travel. And I went to visit the chief rabbi and met him and then went round to a matzah factory, which was producing these handmade kosher mutzer, which then gets sold around the world.

And it was really amazing to see that whole process. It's very carefully run with rabbinical supervision and everything. And given that making and eating mutzahs was illegal during Soviet times, it was really a symbol of how the Jewish community has gone back to life and is helping the city as well, because the Jewish community is very tied in with the rest of the city and they provide a lot of services, not just for other Jewish people, but for the rest of society. Yes, I mean, I definitely got the impression from your book

that though they were doing lots of outreach, as to be fair, were quite a number of churches as well. Yes, I mean, we have also worked. The charity that I help out, bake for Ukraine, we helped to build a bakery underneath a church in an area of Harkiv called Saltyvka, which is one of the biggest housing estates. It's probably the biggest in that city.

But because it's on the eastern side, it bore the brand of Russian attacks. And people who were living there at the beginning of the full-scale war were living in basements. And it was really, really dangerous there. And this church had been helping to feed people and to shelter people. And somehow they got the idea that they wanted to create a bakery.

And then they saw something about bake for Ukraine and reached out. And we went there and I checked out what the facilities were like. And then the girls managed to find. some equipment going cheat because of somewhere it closed down and sent it all over to them. And one of their parishioners installed everything for free. And they've got a bakery down there now which feeds people and they give away free bread to the local area. Felicity, how did all this start? I appreciate you had a familial link to Ukraine and to the Jewish community there through your grandparents. You're also a journalist. You'd spent time

in Russia. But how did you go from that to a real passion for the country? and starting this charity and helping it so much? So it was really, well, you know Olio Hercules, the Ukrainian cook and cook writer who's been living in England for 20 years. She is a good friend of mine. And at the beginning of the full-scale war, she started fundraising immediately and set up a charity called Cook for Ukraine. And I was helping that to raise money.

And we had a bake sale, another friend of mine organized. And we were trying to use the hashtag, bake for Ukraine. And we thought, somebody else is using it, who are these people? And when I checked them out, I saw that they were doing really, really good work. And I had also been in touch with another bakery with a view to filming, sending our correspondent to film with them at the beginning of the war because they were baking underground and feeding soldiers and things.

And that didn't work out, but I stayed in touch with them. And their warehouse was bombed. And they lost all their supplies and all their spare equipment. And I thought, I bet I know people who have, you know, loads of bakeries, they renew their equipment. and it works perfectly well, maybe they'll donate it. So I reached out to people I knew, and within 48 hours, I had everything that the key of bakery needed.

And then I found some people who could drive it there. And I thought, all right, let's do a convoy. And I'd never done a convoy of things now in a country at war before. But there we are. It was very kind and welcoming people. Everyone was super helpful. And then when I found out that bake for Ukraine were working in lots of areas, which were quite near to the front line or in the deoccupied areas.

And they were supporting small bakeries, which were giving away free bread there. I thought, well, that sounds really important. And it's very hard to raise money inside Ukraine because obviously everyone's income has suffered. So they were really grateful for foreign support at that point. And I went to meet them in Odessa. And then we just became really, really good friends. And then I went to visit all the projects that they were supporting. And I thought, God, you don't know about this from outside.

how many people are involved in this incredible volunteering effort when life is already really, really hard for them, but their motivation is to help other people who are even worse off. And I thought this is really incredible and really admirable. I wanted to do everything I could to help them. What comes across so brilliantly in your book, Bread and War, is that quiet heroism of so-called ordinary people who, for whatever reason, are able to go above and beyond

to attempt to help others. But I'm glad you mentioned that so many people, people's income has dropped. I think we sometimes forget that, don't we? How are the majority of the Ukrainian population getting by? Well, it has been really, really difficult for people. I mean, for many, many reasons. I mean, prices there have gone up in the same way that they have everywhere. So, you know, the cost of food and fuel and all that kind of stuff is shot up. Also, because of the blackouts, there are constant electricity blackouts because the Russians keep bombing the, you know, the civilian infrastructure. So people have to have businesses, small businesses have to have

generators and the cost of the fuel for that is astronomical. And at home, you know, people have got to start trying to work out how to get, you know, hot water to, you know, to wash and things like that. And all these solutions, it don't come very cheaply. Because a lot of men are in the army, obviously, their income, you know, that they may have been supporting the family where there's really, really shrunk because you don't get paid that much in the, in the armed forces. Or people's jobs have gone because businesses have gone under or had to pull out. So a lot of those issues have really, really hit people's incomes. But, you know, obviously the cost of living there is lower than it is here. But some cities, especially if people have tried to flee to the

west of Ukraine to get away from the more dangerous areas, the prices of housing there is pretty expensive now. So some people have gone back to sort of frontline cities because they said they can't afford to live in the west of Ukraine. Really? Could you give us an idea of how much rent would be in the west of Ukraine? Gosh, I don't know. I haven't ever rented anywhere. But I think that because incomes there are a lot lower, but you could certainly pay, you know, $1,500 or something a month or something. And that's a lot.

A good chunk of what income is available. Yeah, yeah. And to people who say, well, food, I mean, East European food, it's stodge, nothing more to it. What do you say? I mean, there is, obviously, at the moment it's really cold, so people need the kind of, you know, cheap and nutritious type of food. But I mean, just

my eyes have been, I mean, I always like that kind of food anyway. I love borsh. I love these amazing pancakes called cilniki, which are like made from curd cheese. You have them for breakfast with jam. I mean, what's not to love? Cheascake for breakfast, you know, it's beautiful. And the quality of the fruit and vegetables in the, there's a lot of fresh produce on sale in markets, open air or covered markets. And it's really, really high quality. And they do a lot of fermentation and pickling and stuff, not because it's trendy,

but because that's the way you preserve stuff over the cold winter months. And that's all really delicious. You can get sort of fermented apples and plums and really juicy and, you know, delicious. Lots of the heartier dishes, things like dumplings stuffed with potatoes and onions. It's just really welcome on a cold day, I hope to say. There's a lot of writing in the book about, I don't know, quite sensuous stuff about the food. And you describe something you had in Deneepro, because I made a note of this. A hummus plate garlanded with fried potatoes and obegene,

chopped salad, and a fudgy, soft-boiled egg. I could eat that now. That sounds absolutely lush. Yeah, so could I. That was a fantastic place, actually, called Moshe. And I had these two friends who were helping me to do the translation when I was there. There's a really lovely network of people. It was sort of like, you can find.

someone to sort of help out anywhere in the country really. And they were very plugged into the Jewish community. And they said, we know exactly where to take you for breakfast. So we went there. And there's a lot of that. I've got friends that I stay with in Kiev, and they're always sending me little messages about, well, this new place opened, you might be interested.

And this chef that I met, I actually wrote about in the Sunday Times, an amazing young baker. And he opened a place. He had his own bakery that did goods for other cafes and things. it was like a B2B operation, but he was doing sourdough, really high-quality stuff. Mill's his own flour, bought a mill. So that's in the middle of Kiev with a mill.

And he now makes, he has his own cafe and makes absolutely incredible pastries that you would be bowled over to find anywhere in the world, really, and just amazing quality and sort of craftsmanship that goes into them. You also pay tribute to the army cooks, particularly those near the front line. I was really, really struck by this because the guys there, and I appreciate they're not all men,

although the vast majority are, they need thousands of calories a day. How is that done? So it's quite patchy, I have to say, and I know that I went to the ones that were sort of the rather better examples because I've got friends who've said, oh, God, you get sort of a type of porridge three times a day if you're lucky. But they have a system, a sort of centralised system

where they allocate, I think it's a certain number of calories per day, and they send the ingredients out to the units. So it's kind of calculated according to what energy they'll be using by carrying heavy gear and stuff. But for a lot of the guys in the positions, which is in the more front line, like right by the line of contact and stuff, it's really difficult. You basically have these kind of meals ready to eat that they have in the all other armies. We just mix hot water into a packet of something and sort of hope for the best. Because you can't carry, especially now with the drone warfare, it's really, really impossible sometimes. the guys to leave their positions because there's so many drones flying overhead that it's too

dangerous. So they get stuck there for sort of weeks on end. So they have to have enough rations with them. And the Ukrainians have started dropping food by drone as well to people, food and water. They become quite ingenious because supply routes, you know, when it's impossible to drive by road or to send things in by any other means of transport, they've got to think of a way around that. But there is no doubt that what you eat wherever you are in the world, it is significant. And if you are well fed, well, surely that's going to, it is going to make you feel slightly better. I mean, there's a really interesting bit where you mention an army cook called Roslan. Is that the right pronunciation?

Yeah. Now, he's one of the, he is, I appreciate that standards vary across the army in Ukraine. But for breakfast that day, they'd made burgers, you say in the book. Yes. While the lunch menu was far more elaborate than you might imagine. Borsh, deviled eggs stuffed with fried onion and mushroom. trays of meatballs and what Roslund called field pizza, toasted bread topped with a mix of minced beef, tomatoes and herbs. I mean, that seems incredibly adventurous for conditions that must be,

or to put it mildly, unpredictable. Well, in that particular scenario, they were living in some sort of old cottages in a village that was about 40 miles back. So they were on the border of Herson region. And so they had the opportunity. There was a sort of kitchen there, but they made. mainly cooked outside. I think they used the kitchen area for storage. So they had this sort of wood fire and a sort of barbecue type construction that they'd built. So they could cook things quite easily over that with these huge pots. And they just, because the guys, they were Marines.

So when they go to the front line, they're in the most difficult spot. So I think while they were in this area to the rear, they wanted to kind of recoup and give the guys back some energy that they were going to need for the next mission. Yeah. Yes, and he wasn't even a professional cook. He was somebody who'd been in the Marines and really wanted to cook and then just took to it and was really enthusiastic about it. And other people that you interview had been cooks professionally

and joined up to share their expertise because they felt it was worthwhile. You do ask Ruslan if there are any vegetarians or vegans and there aren't. I do know a vegan actually. So there's a paperback edition of my book coming out in April and we chose a different picture for the cover and it shows a guy who was then a baker and subsequently joined the armed forces. And he's a Buddhist, vegan. And I remember when he first joined a friend of mine said,

oh, can you help us to find some vegan food for him? Because when he was in the training camp, there wasn't much of many options. And so there was a charity who was sending out vegan food to soldiers. So they immediately sent him a sort of care package. Wow. But he's managed to keep up his vegan diet. I mean, I don't know how varied it is. There's a lot of buckwheat, I expect.

but I guess that's nutritious. Well, I mean, good for him. He's got his principles and he's sticking to them and he's a lot braver than I am. What about the peace talks, which ground to a halt ended yesterday. No optimism, it would seem. I think President Zelensky just continues to feel

that he's always being asked to make concessions. Yeah. Putin isn't. I mean, I know it's difficult for you to assess, but what is the mood? Are people just beyond despondent? I mean, I think what's made people, People exhausted and tired this winter is this energy, these energy blackouts.

You can't imagine how it's been absolutely freezing. And a lot of people have had virtually no heating. They've had a couple of hours a day. And they've got ice on the inside of the windows. But they kind of adapt. So they've created these invincibility points in big cities like Kiev and Sumi, where you can go inside a sort of yurt type structure or inside a train station. And there'll be places where you can recharge your phone and get hot drinks and loads of the big

charities like World Central Kitchen have provided hot food for people. So that's kind of keeping spirits up. And I think it's almost like hardened the line. When people see or imagine, I can't imagine really why they're being treated so unfairly, it kind of makes them think, well, you know, we're not going to give up. Why would we surrender our land to the, you know, to the Russians when they, you know, they're the ones who invaded them in the first place? It's a very easy way to stop the war.

And it's for Russia to go home and, you know, go back to their own country with probably some more four-letter words scattered through that. But it's, you know, that's what people think. It's like, well, hang on, you know, this is our country. We never asked for this war. Why are we being told to, you know, to give our land up when, you know, we fought for these four years. People have sadly, lots of people have sadly died.

And you see a lot of injured guys with, you know, with amputations and so on. They don't want to then throw away all of that sacrifice that people have made just for nothing. So the idea of some sort of peace deal soon, which we know is what President Trump wants, followed by elections, what do you think? Just I can't imagine. It's up to the Russians, really. I mean, the Russians are the ones who could end this, as I said. And they are the ones who he should be putting the pressure on because there's no, there's not much point putting pressure on Ukrainians. Because then you can see how they've resisted the incredible onslaughts of the Russian army for four years when nobody thought that they could manage three days. They're not the people. the type of people who sort of give up and surrender. So the only way to stop the war is to make the Russians stop the war. When are you next going back?

Today. And where are you going? So I'm going out to, I'll be in Odessa, where our bake for Ukraine team is based. And then I'll go to Mikhailive as well, which is where our mobile bakery is based. And the girls have been building a new bakery for the team in a kind of underground area so that they can bake there through the year,

whatever's going on outside. It's been very, very cold, so it's been really impossible to use the mobile bakery because there's no, it's like minus 25. So they can't really work outside. So that's why we've decided to create them this new space. And they supply bread to these villages, which are really, really hard to get to with hardly any proper roads. So it's been really vital to have that support.

So I'll go and visit them, and then I'll go up to Kiev in time for the anniversary, the four-year anniversary, which is another sad milestone, but one that's, you know, people are determined to show that they're here and they're not going anywhere. Felicity Spector, and if you fancy a paperback edition of Bread and War, the good news is it will be out in April, and I can't believe it's four years since the Russian invasion, but that book does give you such an insight into, well,

just into the everyday struggles of so, so many people, particularly the elderly. It really makes you think about how elderly people, particularly, I guess those on their own and not in the best of health, what a tough, tough time this has been for them. And organisations like Bake for Ukraine just do valiant work in really difficult circumstances, just providing, I mean, what's life without a loaf? Let's be honest. I think if I had my last supper, it would just be a crust and some really thick coating of the best butter I could get my hands on. whatever the price. So bread and war out in paperback in April. Have a decent weekend. Do please feel free to contact the podcast if you have a moment and if you've got something to bung into the conversation. It's Jane and Fee at Times dot radio and Fee's back from half term on Monday. Looking forward to it. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio.

The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.