Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A rather rude Midsomer Murders bingo card (with David Nicholls)

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

Jane and Fi play a game of Midsomer Murders bingo, naturally. They also discuss elopement, marathons and spitting.Plus, they're joined by author David Nicholls to discuss his new novel 'You Are Here'.You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601Our next book club pick has been announced - A Dutiful Boy by Mohsin Zaidi.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Of course, I always felt compelled to put hummus and cucumber in some brown bread, something that my children would very rarely be eating at home on a school trip when everybody else is watching. Oh, yes. Through its tray in the bin. Just add a wagon wheel. No, they absolutely love it. Just raw radishes most of the time.

right welcome to what passes for another week here on off air don't you love that expression though what's the female equivalent of a swordsman yes a consummate swordsman oh dear what would you be a ubiquitous mate no you, ubiquitous maid doesn't work. A ubiquitous... no. Slag, I think would be what you'd be called. Welcome to the 21st century. Look, there's a lot going on. When isn't there? But I just want to congratulate one of our listeners, Lottie, who did the marathon yesterday. Oh, congratulations. That is all round. The London marathon, I should say. And as I was crossing London Bridge, you know, I mean, this couldn't be more of a contrast. I walked from

the station today from Bank so I could add a few more steps to make me get a little bit closer to my daily target of 10,000. And I happened to see a young woman who looked absolutely as fit as the proverbial uh wearing her marathon medal brilliant as she strode past me on the on london bridge and i congratulate her for just wearing it in public why not you've done an incredible thing don't you find it extraordinary how people who've run the marathon the weekend actually managed to come to work on a monday apparently the owner of manchester united did the marathon before the game. How can you fit so much into one day? I just don't get that.

That's some, what's his name? Jim Ratcliffe. Don't suppose he would have enjoyed the game that much yesterday. But anyway, they did win in the end. So Lottie had us on her stereophonic headphones, didn't she? Yeah, which makes me feel,

so basically we've also run the marathon. Thanks for having us with you, Lottie. I just wanted to thank you both for keeping me company stereophonic headphones, didn't she? Yeah, which makes me feel... So basically we've also... We've done it, Jane. We've done the marathon. Thanks for having us with you, Lottie. I just wanted to thank you both for keeping me company through four and a bit long hours plodding the streets of London doing the marathon today. Not only did she do the marathon, she then emailed us. I usually run to music. Sorry, I was just looking at the picture of her dog.

That's Lottie, isn't it? A dog? No, no. No, that's Lottie. Oh, yeah, that's Lottie. And she's holding her dog. That's Lottie, isn't it? A dog? No, that's Lottie and she's holding her dog. Right, what's your dog called? I think part of mine hasn't printed out properly. I'm really sorry, Lottie. Which bit have you got to?

I deliberately saved all of this week's podcast to binge during the race so you'll be aware that Morris Dancing got a fair amount of airtime. Imagine my surprise when just as one of your, you're absolutely right, it's gone off the end of the page, let's say just as one of your correspondents mentioned Morris dancers, I ran past a troop of them, at least half female, entertaining the runners and crowd. Your warm witty chat kept me coming through the lonely miles around the Isle of Dogs and kept me on pace, so thank you both. Well, it's absolutely

our pleasure. Like Jane said, it basically means we can wear the marathon medal with pride ourselves. But I do like her separate but related note. Can I start a thread about men spitting? Having run 14 marathons and 45 halves, I'd consider myself a reasonable authority. And then it runs off the page again. Something, something. Felt the need to spit during never have i felt the need to spit during any run yet every time i do a race even a

5k park run i see men spitting memorably someone spat directly on me during the copenhagen half it's the same with male footballers i've never seen a female athlete spit do men just produce more saliva than us women it's a good question well that is that's a physiological question and i don't know the answer to that perhaps they do do they know have you ever spat i haven't no in fairness i must say lottie i have seen female footballers spit um and i just wonder whether some some of us produce more saliva than others as i'm talking conscious of that I'm producing it, even as I speak. Is it building up?

I've got a saliva build-up. But no, I haven't. Have you ever spat? No. And I do notice it a lot, actually, in the pool. And I just find that revolting. People don't spit in the pool. They do. They do.

And it's going back into the water they do they do yep and it's it's going back into the water that all you know that inevitably gets kind of into your system somewhere i just think it's a habit full stop it's one of those grotesque ones i'm going to agree with you and you know when someone does a kind of guttural clear out before they spit so you've got full warning that it's about to happen and that really properly makes my vertebrae, yeah, Eve is covering her ears, it makes my vertebrae crunch. It really does.

Stop it. Yeah, stop it, all of you. Jane Garvey has said stop it in one of her very, very firm, firm voices. Chris is a listener from the beginning, not just podcasts, Radio 4 for both of you. Now, you've said something a little bit rude about Radio 4, haven't you?

It popped up on my alerts over the weekend. Did it? Were you alerted? I think I was quite nice. I just said I thought it was a bit smug, which it is. You were on a Kay Adams podcast about being 60. That's right, which I'm not, by the way. So Kay made a rogue booking 60. That's right, which I'm not, by the way. It's okay, you made a rogue booking there.

It's not long to go, though, Jane. But strictly speaking, I've appeared eight weeks too early on that podcast. No, I think I actually said how much of it I now enjoyed because I was older. I think they left that bit out of the clip. I can't say I'm

blown away. I also went on and on about how much I loved The World Tonight and they definitely, I think, cut that bit short. Yeah, that didn't come through. No, OK, because I do love that show. No, you see, I haven't listened to the podcast. I just got sent something. Jane Garvey. Because I've got one of those alerts on my own name.

So, you know, when you and I get mentioned together and it's terrifying, Jane, because I'll switch on my phone in the morning. I think have I done I just was here all night I'm sorry um but you've got to be you've got to be a bit careful with what you say and I'm not yeah so true she isn't uh no uh just to complete this one uh Chris says uh long haul flight on BA I downloaded off air shows to get me through and surprise surprise Off Air has six episodes on the screen. It does. We've made it onto the transatlantic flights. Yeah. Which airline are we with?

British Airways. Did you see Red Eye last night? I did. Now, this is a new show. We can alert you to this. It's on the ITV. It's a very funny script. Do you remember when Leslie Sharp plays the head of MI5 yes and guess what she is wearing completely out of character

for a woman at the top of her profession a suit she's wearing a prince-type suit yes she's wearing a suit and also there was a cracking bit when a rather handsome American guy strides in to have a meeting with her

or I think possibly to take her out for a meal and we don't know who he is but he's a very suave American and we soon find out who he is, but he's a very suave American. And we soon find out who he is because Leslie Sharpe's character says, how are things at the CIA? Alerting us all to the fact that this gentleman works for... The CIA. Yeah, exactly.

No flies on you. But it's set in a plane, on a plane. I think the whole thing is set on this plane. Well, it is. And because you didn't really like the Idris Elba vehicle that was, what was that one called? Hijacked. Hijack.

Just hijack. Which I really, really loved. And they did that kind of in real time because it was on a flight from, I think, was it to London to Dubai? Right. And it was a seven hour flight and it was seven one hour episodes.

It was absolutely brilliant. But Red Eyes on the plane to Beijing is an 11-hour, 22-minute flight. To be precise. Yeah. So I don't think there are 11 episodes. It's preposterous, isn't it? Preposterous, but not unenjoyable.

Not unenjoyable. But the main plot seems to be a bloke who was at a conference in China has been accused of a crime that we don't think he committed. Well. And he tries to get off his plane back from Beijing at London and he's turned around and sent back on. But three of his colleagues are also not allowed off the plane and are just told

they're going to have to fly back to Beijing. They don't put up too much of a fight. I mean, I would be apoplectic if I arrived on a long-haul flight and someone said, you've got to get back on and go back again. After over 11 hours on a plane, I'm getting off that plane. I would lose my Froot Loops at that. But they all just go, yes, OK. Curiously compliant, but I think that probably helps the plot. Maybe they get the air miles.

That's probably what they were thinking. I think they were promised compensation, so... But, you know spoiler spoiler alert I mean somebody's already had a very very dicky tummy after an airline meal anyway I'm not watching it all in one lump because I don't approve of that as regular listeners will know

so I shall tune in next Sunday night to find out what's happening excellent have you finished Blue Lights no I haven't that's another one I'm working my way through it I haven't. That's another one. I'm working my way through it. I haven't seen anything yet. Okay. Well, that is just heaven. It's so well scripted. It's so clever and funny

in a place where you don't think you're going to find funny. I'm going to put my head on the chopping block a little bit and say that I think it might be, although I haven't seen this series, perhaps better scripted than Red Eye. But sometimes things don't have to be well scripted. They just carry you along. And Red Eye has got sometimes things don't have to be well scripted. They just carry you along. And Red Eye has got just lavish Sunday evening just emblazoned across it.

So I don't really care. And it's all set in first class. It's not in donkey class. There's much more space for the characters to move around. I think it's going to be a pleasing watch. Just a quick one, because we've completely digressed from Chris, who's thinking,

is she going to read the rest of it? Is she going to read the rest of it? No food or drink allowed on Singapore Underground, absolute heaven. So you can't spit in Singapore either. It's a criminal offence. My son in sixth form at the time asked me about my pension. I said it would be less,

as I'd taken eight years off to look after you and your brother. He had no recollection of me doing that. Oh, God. What can you say? Oh, Chris. Well, we bring you close to our heaving bosoms of female and maternal compadreness.

But the thing is, they don't have any recollection of you doing that, but actually they do. They do. They've got the muscle memory of it. They've got the... Yeah. They're absolutely held, aren't they? So, well done, you.

Yeah. Honestly, I agree with V. I think they do know, and they will... Well, they have benefited. Yeah. They have benefited. We have to believe that! We do, Chris.

We do. Oh, dear. Right. Right. they have benefited we have to believe that we do Chris we do oh dear right right we've had a few emails around this subject about people eloping and secret weddings

and this is from Anonymous my son has recently eloped and got married to his delightful fiance it was an absolute shock and I'm still recovering we're a close family and I adore my children.

They're our world and we've absolutely, absolutely worked at being the best mum and dad. The whole thing's left me with a variety of mixed feelings, soul-searching, frankly. However, I've had to stop my brain from going down rabbit holes as it was becoming very anxiety-driven. I've arrived at a point where I just have to accept what has happened. I love them both dearly, but I will never get over it and I wouldn't wish this to happen to anybody. And that's from Anonymous.

And then just by way of contrast, this Anonymous listener says, My fiancé, spoiler alert now, husband and I, got married in a secret wedding a few months back and your recent talk about parents wanting to be at their children's weddings has made me feel extra guilty. My husband and I have been engaged a few years with no plans to get married due to the massive expense. I'm now pregnant with our first child due in the summer.

Call it hormones or tradition or wanting the same name or whatever, but I really felt I wanted to get married before the baby was born. I think a lot of people do this with the legal protection that marriage offers us and the baby. Did you know that unmarried fathers have no legal rights until the baby is registered? So we went to the register office with our two best friends and got the legal stuff done with plans to hold a big wedding in a few years' time with everybody there when we've got a bit of money. In our eyes, this will be the proper beginning of our married life together. We didn't want to have a half-done celebration and even this wedding cost

us nearly a thousand pounds. I'd also thought my mum in particular might be a bit disappointed not being able to share the day with extended family so we decided to keep it secret. We don't wear our rings and I've only changed my name with the nhs so when the baby is born it has the surname we will have as a family in the future i have though been wrestling a little bit with this whole thing on the day it felt special and intimate but are we being selfish have i denied my mum and dad something big in my life. Will they care? Oh, gosh. OK, well, maybe I read those emails in the wrong order because our previous correspondent is shattered

by what has happened to her. Yep. So, I don't know, just two different sets of experiences there. Don't feel too guilty. But on the other hand hand as our initial correspondent illustrated this can be a blow yes i think it's really tricky and it's it's not it's not talked about very much because you don't i really feel for um the the parent there the mum there because you you also you don't want to be unhappy you don't want to be unhappy

that your your child has found happiness to you so you're wrapped up in all kinds of things on that one yeah i mean i'd also but i totally understand the expense of a wedding with everything we connect to that um i know it's cliched and you don't need to spend thousands, but the big thing that so many people are focused on can cost, well, it can cost 30 grand, can't it? And who has got that money, particularly right now when people are desperate to get somewhere half decent to live and they might be, well, they will be saving for a deposit. I don't know.

I find that I've got every sympathy with someone who doesn't want a big wedding. However, I'm also a bit torn because I think you should invite your parents or at least offer them the opportunity to be there. Or just tell them it's happening and say, look, we don't want any fuss, but could you be at the office at 10.30 next Tuesday?

Yeah. Do you know, I've got lots of friends who've got married incredibly quietly. And, you know, they really haven't, they've almost dropped it into conversation kind of six months down the line. You know, yeah, we went off to wherever it was. We're married actually now.

And I just, I can understand why, especially if you've got kids of your own. I think it is quite an ask to ask your kids to watch you get married, even if you are got kids of your own I think it is quite an ask to ask your kids to watch you get married even if you are marrying the other parent I think it's much harder when you're marrying somebody else but they've obviously all got their reasons for it and I don't suppose that they had parents at theirs

I mean one of my weddings I didn't have any parents either of my parents at that wedding and we did have quite young children and actually some of the reason for not wanting to have a huge wedding, it was registry office, was exactly that, not actually wanting the

kids to be part of something huge. It's almost like I want to save it for them. You know, when they have a big wedding, I want it to be their wedding if that's what they choose, but also because it is quite complicated further down the line in adult life. Well, your story illustrates just how complicated this is and how I just don't think any of us can generalise.

No. And actually, I didn't go to all of my parents' weddings either. All of your parents' weddings? There have been a few. Yes. I mean... I was just trying to calibrate that. Sorry, I was boggled by that.

No. Okay, so that's interesting. I... Oh, she's really tough. I mean, the first person who emailed, sorry, the first email I read out was from somebody who desperately wanted to be at her son's nuptials, and I totally get it.

And then the second one is from somebody who is pregnant, so they are about to become parents. And I understand their reasoning behind the idea of making it more formal. But they don't yet know what it's like to have a child. And I wonder whether 20 years down the line, 25 years down the line, 30 years down the line, when this as-yet-unborn nipper reaches maturity, whether they will then reassess their decision

to get married without telling. On the down low. Yeah, Without acknowledging. I don't know. It's a funny thing, Jane. I think, you know, we haven't got very far in this conversation and I think that maybe proves the point.

There are now 10,675 ways to cook that egg. So what you believe marriage to be, and actually it's a wedding, isn't it? It's not marriage. What you believe a wedding to be just isn't the same for other people it's changed during those generations that cost thing is so massive so I think is is it one of those things where a generational divide has emerged as well to make things even more confusing I think yeah that's absolutely right the truth is until you've got

a child you don't know how much you'll be doing for that child. And as our earlier email said, some of the stuff you do for your child, your child won't recall. And they won't be grateful in any way, nor should they be, by the way. But you will have that memory. And you will have that link, which I mean, no one, you're, I mean, I, it was my daughter's 21st on Friday night, and I had to make a speech, share it with her best mate from nursery school. They're still really close friends. And the mums made a speech.

But it was incredibly jokey and funny about the two of them. I can't possibly talk at any emotional level about the connection I have with her. It would be utterly out of keeping. You could hear the karaoke from the place downstairs. So, you know, I had to be just jokey and jokey. But the truth is, I could have gone on for four or five hours. And nobody, no other mother would have not understood my desire to do that. But there was no way I was going to do it. I was a bit sorry that people didn't

ask me to go on longer. But they seemed keen to get back to the drinks. What motivates these young people? I don't know, Jane. I just don to the drinks. What motivates these young people? I don't know, Jane. I just don't understand it. What you need is Eve there at every moment to just indicate when you're going on a bit too long. Shut up! Get on with it.

David Nicholls is on. Oh, yes, he's our guest. He is on, actually. He is our guest. Now, you're going to really, really... I'm going to give you the book. Actually, I won't give you my copy. I've got a copy.

And I've also ordered a copy. Well, that's just as well, because I took mine home on Friday in my bag with a leaky bottle of water but i loved the book so much i've personally looking for these curled pages it's called you are here and it's about uh middle-aged love and it's beautiful jane it is beautiful and funny and all of the things that david nichs does so well. So he's coming up in a couple of moments time. Any thoughts about marriage? Put us out of our misery

because we genuinely don't seem to have any answers. It's turned out to be a colossal emotional can of worms. It hasn't. And I don't want to upset anybody and I totally understand the desire to get married quietly but I also really feel for the lady who's wrestling with what happened to her.

That hasn't helped anyone. Best wishes come from Leslie to get married quietly, but I also really feel for the lady who's wrestling with what happened to her. Yeah. That hasn't helped anyone. Best wishes come from Leslie, who says, your piece on DJs carrying briefcases brought back a memory. When my husband graduated back in 1978, his parents were so proud

and gave him a monogrammed briefcase. We were the first jobbers new to London at the time and he got a job at the Holborn, I can never say that properly, I apologise, branch of a big chain of high street job agencies. He used his briefcase on his daily commute to carry his marmalade sandwiches for lunch

and a copy of The Guardian. Does an alarm go off in the building? What have you just said? Yeah, I'm feeling a slight electric shock. The sandwiches were made of crusts that i used to get very cheap from a sandwich shop that used to sell off sliced loaf crusts in a bag this wasn't because we were poor though we were but we preferred the crust to the sliced bread i think that's an absolutely lovely story so marmalade sandwiches and a copy of the guardian

you don't really see a mom you don't see a jam sandwich or a marmalade sandwich emerging for lunch very often these days not in the wild these days no i wonder whether they make the you don't really see a marmalade you don't see a jam sandwich or a marmalade sandwich emerging for lunch very often these days not in the wild these days no I wonder whether they make the occasional appearance on a school trip

maybe yep a jam sandwich you know on the back row of the coach yes unwrapped as soon as you've left the playground

yes of course I always felt compelled to put hummus and cucumber in some brown bread something that my children would rarely be eating at home on a school trip when everybody else is watching. Oh, yes.

Through its tray in the bin. Just add a wagon wheel. Yes. No, they absolutely love it. Just raw radishes most of the time. Lots of people have told us that the masons who you saw with their little briefcase, medium briefcase, and big briefcase coming out of the big lodge,

would be carrying their Masonic aprons and their regalia medals, etc. It's quite odd, isn't it, to go off on your Friday night. Well, it was a Thursday night. Oh, it was a Wednesday night. A Wednesday night. As a gentleman, and you've been at work all day, and you've got your tiny little briefcase, and inside it you've basically got some kind of domestic dress-up stuff

and some gold medals. You know, like the medals that our kids got at school for just going to school. Those kind of medals. I've kept all of them. I don't know why. It's a bit odd, the apron thing. I don't get it.

I still don't get it. This is a safe place to embrace oddity of all descriptions. Alexis is angry about this, hoping to join the conversation briefly with a thought I had a while ago where you were sharing a lot of birth stories. But it also relates to silly sayings which make no sense.

I absolutely hate it when people say, you're born alone, you die alone. You are definitely hardly ever or never born alone. Your labouring mother is right there living it with you. Right, I have given birth twice and I have never been able to understand how this phrase has persisted, all the best Alexis very good point

you're not alone are you, you're not born alone sadly you might die alone but you are not born alone well done for pointing that out I just want to say a very big hello to Alice I don't know what Eve's laughing at, that was a very serious part she's probably going to have to compress that

because you were a bit shouty. Yeah. Alice has sent a lovely email about three things on the subject of Morris dancing. And we won't let this run too much into this week because we have done an awful lot about Morris dancing. But she wanted to share a fragment of my late mother's story, a fun-loving girl from the silent generation.

No one had any idea why she married my miserable father, who in the 50s banned her from makeup and climbing out of her window to avoid curfew, her digs to go dancing all night. Spool forward a bit, and she loved dancing. She finally lived as much of her best life as she dared, and while my sister and I were of reluctant confidence, we couldn't help but be glad that she had a chance to be herself she danced anything and everything including Morris and found a whole new circle of

kindly people from all backgrounds and finally began to stop parroting dad's opinions she had definitely found her tribe I think that's lovely yep so wherever it is that you found your tribe you know when you have and if it's Morris dancing, then fair enough. I did over the weekend look up quite a lot of these Morris dancing troops that were being sent, and Boss Morris is amazing, Jane. I mean, you know, when we started this conversation, it was about, you know, the jingle jangle of men.

Old school. Old school. But Boss Morris, you would recognise them because apart from anything else, they did that wet leg thing at the Brits, and they've been around everywhere, and if you've got daughters of the age that your daughters are at they would have showed you stuff on insta i'm sure they're really colorful and they garland their hair and they're not that kind of spooky formation dancing and they're big and bold and much more folksy

they look like they've all dressed from, you know, those very expensive caftan shops in Notting Hill. They won't thank me for saying that at all. But anyway, Alice is also the partner of Sandra, who we name-checked. She'd had an emergency stoma and she had contacted us about that. And I really hope that she is doing okay because some of what you tell us, Alice, is really about that kind of post-surgical

trauma that can affect people for such a long time and you end your email saying we've both been listening to you for so long we can't agree on who introduced who to your shows but they've soundtracked the ups and downs of our lives and enlivened many a pedestrian day i'm constantly delighted by the quality of the lines of inquiry that lead to some really thoughtful discussions with some of the better class of interviewee, even some of the ones flogging a detective novel. Keep it up.

It's a little bit pointed, isn't it? Who could that be? I don't know. I don't know what you mean. We've got some interesting guests coming up. We've just had a meeting about the guests we've got coming up this week. Direction, Jane, direction. Yes, and we've got, so our guest today is David Nicholl.

Is it Nicholls? I do apologise. David Nicholls, who of course wrote... Can I just correct you on something? Not Richard Hawley. Richard Ashcroft. Richard Ashcroft was from The Verve. Richard Hawley was once in Pulp. I'm really sorry about that.

No, there's no need for a huge apology. My Sheffield credentials, having gone to sea, standing at the sky's edge, I was right up there, but now I've just plummeted and I'm extremely sorry. I really am. No, don't do that. I said Radio 4 was smug.

I can't believe I did that. And now I've got my hallies and my Ashcrofts mixed up. So, no, I do take it back. Later in the week, we've got Salman Rushdie and we've got Vogue Williams. Now, there's no podcast on earth that's got both of those two.

Not following from one day to the next. And we've got Hadley Freeman, who has written a book about anorexia, so I trust that some people listening will want to hear what Hadley's got to say about her experience of anorexia and in her case, her recovery from it. Yeah. So that's a little bit later in the week.

But yes, I mean, I do. Ours is a life of contrast. And Salman Rushdie to Vogue Williams. It's a shift. It is a shift. We'll be able to handle it. It'll be absolutely fine. Lots of people actually, well lots, three or four, have mentioned this thing on BBC4 which I haven't seen shoulder to shoulder, the suffragette drama that the BBC made back in the 70s, I think.

I didn't, I was far too young to watch it then and haven't ever seen it but I will look that up. Here's Susan to say it is a bit dated. It's not graphic as far as I've watched so far. They do, of course, feature force feeding, but only through a few episodes. It's worth a go, says Susan, pointedly, particularly if you can't be bothered to vote. I suggest you watch it.

Right, good point, well made. I will seek it out. And just congratulations to Elsa, who sent us Midsummer Murder Bingo Version 2. I'd love to have seen Version 1, because Midsummer Bingo Version 2 includes quite a few ones I can't read out. But here we go.

Barnaby skips out on a family event, features a ridiculously huge old manor house. Can you just say whether any of these tipped up in the episode you watched? Well, both of those. Hobbyist stereotypes are taken to the extreme. Well, yes, because it was about preppers. Incest.

Not as far as I was aware. No, but I think it... But it was, wasn't it? It was about an adopted childhood realised he wasn't adopted. Oh, God, you're a bloody hell. I mean, to be fair... I only watched eight minutes of it. Talking of sayings, they always say, wasn't it? It was about an adopted child who'd realised he wasn't adopted. Oh, God, you're a bloody hell. I mean, to be fair... I only watched eight minutes of it.

Talking of sayings, they always say, don't they, that there's... Who was it who said there are two things you should try everything in life except... Except... Incest and Morris dancing.

Was that Oscar Wilde? No. I don't know. Somebody will know. That's just kind of summed up our podcast content, isn't it? Well, not it. We don't know. That's just kind of summed up our podcast content, isn't it? Well, not it. Village Hottie is objectively average looking.

Body count of four or more. Yes. Oh, it's you, or some variation thereof, a victim's last words. Woodland creature sounds used for dramatic effect. Cully has an audition or is in a play. Vaguely familiar actor you can't quite place. A billion trillion percent.

Yeah. The one that's in at number one, it did make me laugh just because I haven't heard that expression. What is it? It's so rude. Yeah, I'm not doing that. Right, but thank you for contacting us. And even though we can't always read out the entire content Yeah, I'm not doing that. Right. But thank you for contacting us.

And even though we can't always read out the entire content of any of the emails or every email, we do enjoy it. We so enjoy reading them. So keep them coming. It's Jane and Fee at Times.Radio. Hi, it's Fido. Start the semester with a new phone and a plan full of data without breaking your budget. We have everything you need for an A-plus year. Come check out our special back-to-school offers. They'll leave you with more cash in your pocket for the stuff you love.

Select plans even include data overage protection so you can go all out without going over. Don't wait. Our back-to-school offers are only available for a limited time. Go to Fido.ca or a Fido store near you and save all semester long. Fido. At your side. Bring in the guest. David Nichols is a celebrated writer and rightly so

because what he tells us about love is all of the stuff that we know but we need somebody as elegant with prose as him to write it all down so we can enjoy knowing it again and his latest book is an absolute treat if you're of a certain age because it features Marnie and Michael who end up walking quite substantial parts of the Lake District together in a kind of thrown together, slightly kind of set up date scenario from Marnie and Michael's friend Chloe. And guess what? They start to fall in love.

Marnie and Michael are two lonely people who are brought together on a weekend's hiking holiday in the Lake District. Michael is just separating from his wife. There's various things that have happened in his past. He's in quite a bad way. He really just wants to walk by himself. He wants to walk the coast to coast from St. Bees in Cumbria all the way to the Yorkshire coast.

Marnie is a copy editor from London who hasn't had a relationship for a while and really doesn't like the outdoors. But they're brought together as part of a group walk and gradually the other members of the group fall away and they talk and walk all the way across the country. And it's a love story that takes place with each leg of the walk

representing a different leg of the relationship. So it's a love story with maps that takes place on the long walk. It's also a really beautiful middle-aged love story, isn't it? It's about people who are a little bit weather-beaten, and that has actually made them a little bit more vulnerable. Yes, they both had bad relationships in the past. Well, Marnie in particular got married in her 20s,

and it wasn't the right thing to do, and she sort of put romantic love to one side. She lives a perfectly comfortable, happy life, working as a copy editor and really loves books and wraps herself in books and has become a little bit introverted, maybe a little bit antisocial. And Michael, as you discover during the course of the novel, has suffered various traumas and the breakup has been very difficult for him. And they both kind of shut down. They both lost the gift of communication.

And the novel is about them rediscovering that connection. Yeah. Do you think, how old are you now? That's not too personal a question. I'm 57. 57. 57. Do you think that you could write young love again?

Or was it a pleasure to write middle-aged love? Yes, I was talking about this the other day. I think there's, I mean, I haven't had a date for 27 years. And you know, that's, that's deliberate. I mean, it's not, not, not, not intentional. But I think it's a whole new world now. I think it's not just technology, it's, it's the, the, the attitude that people bring to it. And in many ways, as an outsider, a lot of it seems very positive that people are much more open and, and frank about what they want and need. But it isn't something I could write about with any confidence, I think.

I think I was talking to Dolly Alderton at an event last night, and she writes so well about dating and love and that journey from your 20s into your 30s. And I could do it, but part of me wonders why when there's so many other writers doing it so well and I would probably need to do so much research and talk to so many people that there'd be an element of distance so I guess as I proceed into my writing career is probably going to have to think more about family and family relationships and the the joys and complexities of that I think what's so beautiful about this book and i absolutely adored this book david is that you really nailed the vulnerabilities of marnie and i think for a male writer to be able to do that is actually quite a feat and

obviously as a female reader it's also really comforting to see into the vulnerabilities of Michael. In a sense, it's quite a calming book to read about middle aged people, because it recognises both those two things. But for the female vulnerability, I mean, do you ask anybody about that? How do you know about the sweat under our boots? Yes, I don't Google it or anything. I, a lot of my best friends are women A lot of my best friends are women. Most of my best friends are women. I kind of try not to think about it while I'm writing. But then in the editing process,

there is a lot of input and a lot of conversation. And I'm certainly brought up on it if anything doesn't ring true. But for the most part, I don't know. It's not that I don't worry about it. I just have to hold on to the idea that most of those experiences of of anxiety about the future or unrequited love or loneliness that or ambition or uh insecurity that those things are universal and certainly my experience has been with this book and with One Day, I feel a little bit closer to the female characters than the male characters.

Their biography and their experiences tend to match mine a little more than the male characters. But I am also very, very, very open to responses from my female readers. And I certainly do take that on board. And there are things that I wouldn't do. I don't think I could write a female character in the first person voice. I think there's a difference between I feel and she feels. But that's interesting that your heroine's lives more closely mirror your own. And do you think that's because you do need to draw them in much more closely

because it's not such a familiar place for your head to be? Perhaps. Perhaps. I mean, Michael perhaps is a little closer to me. But, yeah, maybe it's my instinct, I think, is to... I suppose I'm thinking of Emma in one day. Her experience through her 20s was very, very close to mine. And so I found her much,

much easier to write than Emma, than Dexter, much, much easier to write than Dexter. And yeah, I'm always very, very flattered when readers say, you know, I am Emma or I identified with Emma. But I'm aware that actually a lot of her experiences, particularly her insecurities about what to do in her 20s, kind of her worry about the future, her loneliness, a lot of her experiences, particularly her insecurities about what to do in her 20s, her worry about the future, her loneliness, a lot of that was absolutely mine. So I'm pleased that that's an area where the line is blurred. I'm very wary of stories that exaggerate this great divide

between male and female experience, the whole kind of men from Mars thing. It isn't to say that there aren't different experiences that should be explored and acknowledged. At the same time, some other very key emotions are, I feel, universal. Did you have anything to do as the executive producer, one of the exec producers, on One Day with the casting of One Day?

I did, yeah. I was very closely involved, really, with all aspects of the production without writing the scripts. I wrote one episode. I wrote the penultimate episode. But I was very involved in the casting and the script editing and the edit

and the music and everything. So, yeah, it was very active. So was it your decision or your desire to cast a non-white actor in Emma's role? We auditioned very widely and we looked objectively at all the audition tapes and various combinations of performers and we all completely loved Amber Kerr. And I think she's an exceptional actor. And after that, there were conversations between Amber Kerr and Nicole

about how the story and the script might be adapted to acknowledge Ambika's background. So that was primarily Nicole and Ambika's collaboration but we were very, very keen to have her input. So is there any sense that because you had written one day, you know, several decades ago, that you needed to actually just reflect a greater cultural diversity? I think that's the case with all television. you needed to actually just reflect a greater cultural diversity.

I think that's the case with all television. I think it absolutely should reflect the wider society. And I'm aware as a novelist that often my experience isn't as wide as the experience of the writers on a television show. A television show is very collaborative. So you do get to ask all of these different varied opinions from people who are from different backgrounds and make sure that everything is right and you've taken things on board. That isn't the experience of a novelist.

Often, even if you're not writing autobiographically, you're drawing on quite a narrow range of experience. Yeah. So if we're reading to broaden our mind, how should we as readers approach books that come from history or just our recent past that don't have that kind of broadness in them do you do you think that you know that some authors just shouldn't be celebrated anymore because they have a narrowness in their writing i i don't feel that i think it's it's it's possible to read contextually and and have all that in your mind as you read

and acknowledge that times have moved on and attitudes change. At the same time, I would completely understand someone who didn't want to read a particular author because they couldn't get over that. Do you find it difficult? I don't know whether you're a fan of some of the big names that have come in for criticism, Agatha Christie, Enid Blyton. Yeah, I can certainly make that distinction. At the same time, I mean, I've adapted writers

who have a particular worldview and that you have to stay true to. At the same time, I think it's perfectly fine to move works in a particular direction. I don't think it's a betrayal. The word adaptation means change. And an adaptation reflects not just the material that it draws on, but the time in which it's made.

And that seems to me a good thing. Yeah. So do you feel an onus when you write now to write about a more kind of diverse country? I mean, it's just a fact, isn't it, that when you go to a place like the lakes, when you walk in the countryside, it can still be a really uncomfortable place for people of colour who've been made to feel incredibly unwelcome in their own countryside. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that should be acknowledged. But I'm also aware that there are other people

who can write about that with a level of experience and first-hand experience that I don't necessarily have. So I do try and reflect society while at the same time knowing that there are things which are better left to other people. Okay. I did love all of the detail involved in the book. I mean, the Wi-Fi codes in all of the hotels are all Wordsworth-oriented, aren't they?

Presumably you have a copy checker who comes in to make sure that isn't actually the Wi-Fi code. We didn't do that. But all of the pubs and hotels and B&Bs, they're all entirely fictional. So, you know, the mountains are real, the pubs are made up. But you. So, you know, the mountains are real, the pubs

are made up. But you walk yourself, don't you? I do. Once a year, I tend to go away for three or four days by myself and see how far I can walk through the lakes or the dales. And I, in order to research this book, I did the coast to coast. I did it in three sections over a period of time and took lots of photographs and and uh and made sure that i knew exactly where michael and money were standing at each stage of the journey and how do you actually write down some of the the great great moments in the book are you a guy who has a notebook with them at all times and when something comes to you or can you just hold it all until you get to your desk i always have a a pen and for this book i had a waterproof notebook and i didn't take it out of my pocket once i i i kind of wait until i'm back

in the in the comfort of the hotel and then i then make copious notes then but i don't i don't walk as i i don't write as i walk, no, except in my head. Yeah. One of the most beautiful lines in the book, David, is when Marnie is having a bit of a kind of revelatory evening with Michael and she's really telling him her story. And she says, I suppose the main thing I feel now, and I want you to remember I've had a drink or two,

is that I would have liked to have loved someone, you know, mutually and for a period of time and at that time of life when you've got so much of it love not salmon i think i'd have been good at it that's what i wanted and i did try really so that really beautiful line i would like to have loved someone for a period of time and actually it's a line that then the two characters remember don't they say something like that does that just flow out of your fingertips onto the keyboard it's quite profound thank you I mean I I write a lot of notes that aren't meant to be read so before I actually type chapter one I probably have written 20 or 30,000 words of dialogue, monologue,

character notes, sketches, just little jokes and bits of description and probably buried in those notes. Most of that gets thrown away, but hopefully buried in there are some good things that I can draw on later. And I find dialogue the easiest and most enjoyable thing to write. It tends to just flow and I very draw on later. And I find dialogue the easiest and most enjoyable thing to write. It tends to just flow

and I very rarely correct it. I'm much more ill at ease with description, that kind of thing. So it probably just came out and stayed that way. Yeah, but it's such a lovely concept, isn't it? Because it's not regretting the person that you met or anything that happened.

It's just that feeling that you had a kind of, you know, you had a warm bath full of something. Yeah, she had something to give. Yeah, it didn't happen. I mean, Marnie didn't have the 20s that she expected to have. I think that's quite a common experience. You know, we so celebrate that time of life as a time where life is changing

and you're making friends and falling in love and that didn't happen for her and she's carrying that regret with her even seven or eight years later and preparing to put that part of her life to one side and that's where we meet her at the beginning of the book. You studied at the University of Bristol, is that correct? I did, yeah.

If you had your time again now, as a young adult, would you go to university? Would you saddle yourself with the debt? You read a humanities subject, didn't you? I guess the answer to that is I would have liked to have done that. And I probably wouldn't have done that. And I feel very angry that people from lower incomes are being pushed out of their humanities and pushed out of jobs that are pushed out of subjects that are perhaps non-vocational in an obvious way. Certainly all of my contemporaries there who studied drama and English, all of those subjects, they haven't necessarily gone on to become writers or actors, but they've gone on to do wonderful things and absolutely repay that debt. I was paid to go to university and I'm extremely, extremely grateful for that opportunity. And I'm very,

very sad that while we have opened up the universities, it doesn't feel as if those subjects are accessible in the way they were when I was 18. So I'm very, very, very grateful for the education I've had. And almost certain that like Marnie in the novel, I'd have been too scared to do it. And I feel very sad and quite angry about that. You do some teaching yourself, don't you? And I've seen online that I could access your great expertise, wisdom and talent. Yes, I do. Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, I try not to be too dogmatic because the experience of writing a novel is different for every writer.

You know, so I think it's important not to give hard and fast rules. But there are things I think which you can, yeah, which you can learn from. So, you know, you offer a kind of masterclass, whatever. So do you actually get to read new writers' work? Is it that kind of thing where they're sending stuff in to you? I do sometimes and I try and support new writers, debut novelists when I can. There's so much being published.

I wish I was a faster reader. And I'm also wary of sometimes of influence. You know, if you're writing around a particular subject, it's quite hard sometimes to read authors who are writing in a similar area. So that can be difficult. If a novel is, say, influenced by one day, I'm extremely flattered,

but I'm also wary of reading it just because I have to go and write another novel and I want to keep certain subject matter to myself, I suppose. Avoid the contamination on the cheese board of creativity. Also envy. Often, you know, there are some wonderful writers out there and it can be tough to read a great novel and then sit down and try and write your own. Can you just leave our listeners with a couple of recommendations of good books that you're reading at the moment?

Oh, well, I've just written an introduction to a novelist I really love, an Australian novelist who I think should be better known, Helen Garner. I've written an introduction to a novel called The Children's Bach, which is not an easy novel, but I think an amazing novel.

And I'm just reading Salman Rushdie's account of the attack called Knife, which I think is an amazing piece of writing as well. Yeah, does that put you off appearing on stage? No, I think I love doing events, though it's a harrowing book in places, but he also approaches it with terrific humour and insight as well. It's a wonderful piece of writing.

David Nicholls, the book is called You're Here. Couldn't recommend it highly enough. It's just a treat, Jane. It's a wonderful piece of writing. David Nicholls, the book is called You're Here. Couldn't recommend it highly enough. It's just a treat, Jane. It's a completely not a treat. I'm keeping it for my holidays. Yeah, you should. I think it's going to really warm up my cockles. Yeah.

So I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. And I would also, if I were you, keep John O'Farrell's Family Politics for your holiday too because that is funny. It's a good funny book to read. No, that sounds excellent. Oh no, I can't say that, sorry.

No, we banned Holly Bob. Sorry. I don't know why I don't like it myself. I just slipped into it. I'm sorry. Right, so what are the subjects we've tackled today? Spitting, but there's no debate to be had about it, unless you can tell us whether it's true that men simply produce more saliva okay there'll be a phd student somewhere whose ears have just pricked up and weddings

the heartbreak that can be caused whichever side of that debate you appear on yes by elopement we also i think we're tail ending really on the morris dancing but thank you very much indeed for that and is there anything else we need to chuck out? It's a Monday it usually is. Well I mean What happened? I just had a malfunction. I'll tell you what it is. It's because I know that I'm trying

this new wrap today that I've got from a popular high street sandwich establishment and I'm very keen to sample it. What's in it? Well, it advertises it's had a little thing on the counter that just said I'm new. I'm afraid I'm hopeless. I'm so drawn. What kind of thing? Chicken satay.

Chicken satay in a wrap? Okay. Well, funnily enough, from the canteen you've missed a treat. Oh, what is it? I've got a kind of I've got a kind of jerk chicken with rice it looks good jane's gonna be very cold by the time you get back to it anyway evie's hyperventilating she's absolutely heard enough right uh so get in touch jane of feet at times dot radio absolutely lovely i suspect that this won't be an addition that makes it onto british

airways so at ease, everybody. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on off air very soon don't be so silly running a bank i know lady

listener sorry