Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A surprisingly fruity bunch

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Happy Monday! Fi's off sick, so Robbie Millen, literary editor of The Times and The Sunday Times, is keeping her seat warm - and he’s attempts a little poem for the privilege. Jane and Robbie chat unbroken Britain, managing younger colleagues, and Robbie shares his book picks for the week. We've announced our next book club pick! 'Just Kids' is by Patti Smith. You can listen to the playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/3qIjhtS9sprg864IXC96he?si=uOzz4UYZRc2nFOP8FV_1jg&pi=BGoacntaS_uki.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you know what I say to the young, Robbie? I just say, can't be blessings? What have you got to complain about? I'm hugely popular. We know you love the thought of a vacation to Europe, but this time, why not look a little further? To Dubai, a city that everyone talks about and has absolutely everything you could want from a vacation destination.

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The business is sponsored by PWC. This episode of Offair is sponsored by Tenor. Let's talk about something that affects so many of us, but we don't always feel comfortable discussing, menopause. And that's why Tenor is partnering with us, to spark open and empowering conversations on the topic. They want to help normalise the conversation, reduce the stigma and drive real change for women's health and well-being during menopause.

That's right, Jane. Tenor is committed to supporting menopausal women by elevating their well-being and their proud partners of Gen M, an organisation working to normalise menopause conversations and drive systemic change. And part of that is helping women rethink bladder weakness, seeing it not as a limitation, but as something they can manage confidently and proactively.

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Now, I've got to tell you that Fee isn't here today. She's not feeling too good. So get well soon, sister. I hope she's back tomorrow. But, but do not despair. Robbie Millen, who's very senior. He's the literary editor of the. Sunday Times and the Times, and he joins us on the Times radio program every Monday, or most

Mondays, to talk highfalutin stuff about books. And very graciously, he's agreed to take part in the podcast. It is a first for Robbie. He's very important. And normally doesn't dip his toe into, his literary toe into podcast waters. But look, we're giving him a chance. And you can let us know what you think. Mark Kerrins couldn't be located either. So I'm not saying we're scraping around. But Eve is here. And I think this is a first for off air she's even put her microphone on properly so people can hear Eve

so on you go hello that's it it seems like we're the only people who have bothered to turn up today Jane feels a bit like that today doesn't it it's a shocking old day it feels like the first day of proper autumn in London town today

it's grey it's wet the tubes are up the spout I had to get off at King's Cross and get a cab I'm in a grump I'm a bit tired because I went to a showbiz event boy did I go to a showbiz event last night it was a gala for the showbiz charity the water rats and what fun was had there do you know what they did eve tell me they gave and i'm not laughing because look i'm in showbiz

they gave they gave a lifetime achievement award to a man who you won't know roger de courcy and the reason i mention him is because we have referenced him on the podcast because he is the controller of nookie bear oh yes did you remember the discussion about nookie yeah okay so nookie bear Nooky was a 70s word, which perhaps an 80s, don't know, which meant, you know, jiggery-pokery. I suppose that, and I suppose that was the joke about the bear. I never really got it. Basil Brush was also there.

Basil's telling jokes that, well, he certainly told jokes last night that you couldn't put on the telly in 2025. Oh, God. Yeah, yes. I mean, Basil's, well, he's, I don't know how, well, his brush is still very much there. Baselbrush came on my Chorley show about two years ago and the puppet master took his anonymity very seriously. What puppet master? Sorry, you're right.

I can't believe. I actually left before Basil Brush made his way to our table but apparently he did put in an appearance but I'm afraid, you know, it got to 20 to 11 and Eva was a beaten woman so it's a Sunday night as well. I heard some cracking crooning though on the stage all those old-time swing numbers. Anyway, it's so unusual to go out on a Sunday

because normally by Hoppers 7 on a Sunday night I've got the elasticated waist trousers on and it's antiques road show and a sort of leaf through the Sunday papers but to go out there's something counterintuitive about getting ready to go out at Hoppers 4 on a Sunday afternoon. Do you ever go out on a Sunday?

God, no. Exactly. So it just felt wild. Anyway, it's going to be a long old week but we've started it. Exactly. We should say that we did have a great time in Cheltenham, didn't we?

And we want to thank the people who made the effort to turn up there. Also, thanks to Colleen for dropping off some marmalade. Thank you very much for that, Colleen. We do love homemade marmalade, and we're very, very grateful. And also to the people who sat in the Times Square Hot House on Thursday and watched us do about 90 minutes of the Times Radio program before we went into the grand venue, The Forum. Sorry, I'm just going to stop you there.

We have Robbie Millen. Okay, you let him in. So when we went into the forum, that was to do the interview with Penny Lancaster. Robbie, it's started. Come on in, please. Oh, yeah, God, oh, dear. This is what happens when the professionals are off, and we're dealing with what's available. Take a seat, Robbie.

Take a seat, take a seat. So I was just saying how wonderful it was to be at the Cheltenham Literature Festival. And our guest on Thursday was Penny Lancaster. Now, you're no, Penny because she's married to Rod Stewart. Yes, no, I've heard of the Rod Stewart. You've heard of the rod, and you must have heard of the Penny by now. Oh, yes. She was, do you know what, she was the ideal guest

because she was very thoughtful about some very serious stuff that's happened to her, but she was also extremely funny. Oh, gosh, okay, I'm layering the tone there. Well, yeah, well, you know, slightly. But she went down an absolute treat. So Penny, I don't suppose you're listening, but thank you very much. And many people, including my cousin Peter, would like to know when everyone else can hear the Penny Lancaster interview

that went on after 4 o'clock the bit that wasn't on the radio so when are we doing that? We'll be putting it out during the Christmas period during the Christmas, it's a bit vague that that's because I haven't quite got that far with my organisation this is what you do, hire Gen Z and this is where you go

You are Gen Z, aren't you? Around there. Okay, you've overplayed your part now We've got it, we've got to... What's Eve? My dad, we and I are on the choir I try not to encourage you too much secretly we think she's brilliant but don't tell her.

Right, so I just want to thank everybody for their patience, Robbie, if you just excuse me for a second. Absolutely. Harriet says, your gonzo journalism at the Cheltenham Literature Festival had me in stitches. Harriet, that's a very generous assessment of the podcast on Thursday, which was basically Fee and I trying to operate equipment on a great Western train down to Cheltenham,

and it's certainly in my case doing some appalling descriptions of the bucolic idyll that we were going, because it was, I don't, did you go on the train? Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's some beautiful stone buildings. But doesn't Gonzo just mean disorganised? Does it? Yes, okay, Harriet.

Script list. Right. Well, anyway, Harriet, I apologise for the, it is somewhat amateurish, the podcast on Thursday. It won't happen again, difficult times because we were on the move. Now, what was the session, Robbie, that you chaired at Cheltenham? Well, I chaired a number. I did funny ha-ha novels. Right.

Or ha-ha. What about the church and sex? I did the Sunday morning papers with Patrick McGuire on Times Radio. Right. And I interviewed the lovely Calla McSorley, a lovely Scottish crime novelist who read the filthiest extract from his book involving the worst words possible, which the audience seemed to love. Right.

They can be a surprisingly fruity bunch, can't they? Oh my goodness, yes. They were revved up. Yes. Yes, I noticed that. Perhaps it was you that had revved them, though. I think Fee described Cheltenham as, what was it, the middle-aged, middle-class

Glastonbury, but I mean, Glastonbury is pretty middle-class but this was, yeah, I would say at times it was quite wild. Yes, no, no, there's, I think things going on in the undergrowth. Yeah, but always in quite good, sensible shoes. Can I just say... Birkenstocks. And some superb, resilient-looking outerware. Oh, God, you very much.

Because the weather was a little unpredictable. But loads of chocolate-coloured Labrador's as well, which I love Cheltenham for. You know when you hear the expression, Broken Britain? Yes. That was unbroken Britain. Oh, yeah, no, it seems to work very nicely. You looked around and there was just not a flutter.

It was just, there was no hint of revolution in the air. No. There really wasn't. Right. Now, we should say that you are here. Are we doing some sensible chat with Robbie that we can put on the radio? Yeah, we are. Oh, my goodness.

We'll get on to that in a minute. But do you mind just putting it? up with some of the musings from the audience here. Now, I'm interested to know, actually, Robbie, whether you have read Leonard and Hungry Paul. No, it's kind of one of those children's classics, isn't it? It's not a children's classics. No. And who am I thinking of that? I don't know. This is a book by the Irish writer Ronan Hesion. Oh, it's always, loads of people always mention it to me, and I just never got round to it. It's kind of cultish. Yes, it's become really cultish, and it's being televised. The BBC has made a dramatisation of it, and I think a lot of people,

already saying it's not what we wanted it's not how we imagined them I'm going to have a look myself it starts at 10 o'clock tonight on BBC 2 really weirdly I think when I actually really ponder this Julia Roberts is narrating it I mean the Julia Roberts

that's good right but is it appropriate I don't know it's a very very funny quirky celebration of small lives I think that's the expression and I really like the book and I'm just not sure it lends itself necessarily to her...

She's not a small life person, is she? No, she's huge. Everything about you, Robert, is absolutely enormous. Those teeth are absolutely gigantic. But in a lovely way, yes, very toothsome way. She is gorgeous, obviously, and incredibly talented. Anyway, Andrew O'Connor is one of many people who just says let your podcasters know that Leonard and Hungry Paul starts tonight on BBC 2, 10 o'clock. So we've done that, and please, if you've been a fan of the book,

in particular. Let us know what you think. Dramatizations of quiet books don't always work, do they? No, I'm trying to think of some good ones. Which dramatizations of books do you have you really thoroughly enjoyed over the years? Do you know, I thought, because I think you spoke recently

to Colm to Bean, I think Brooklyn does justice to the novel, which is unusual. I'm trying to think of other ones. My brain has gone blank. No, but that was a film rather than the TV. Oh, yes. I'm just trying to. The Swimmingpool Library, going back 20 on the years, Alan Hollingerers.

Alan Hollingshire, yeah. I mean, I think that sort of certainly got the audiences on the edge of their seat about the naughtiness that went on in that. But I think that was pretty good. It's been turned into a play. Has it? Which I think is opening this week. Gosh, I mean, this is surprisingly topical and informed. Oh, my gosh, yes.

I knew something. And the Almeida in North London. I think it's starting tomorrow may be. I tell you what. Those people who are normally used to the kind of piffle that Fee and I produce thinking they want to get more of this, Robbie. We really do. I doubt it.

Well. I really doubt it. Sharon says, thank you for reminding me how much I love the books of Philippa Gregory. Now, Philip was a, she was a guest last week, Robbie. Yes. And she is one of those women, not just women, of course, but she properly tells a yarn, spins a yarn, and people love what she does. Suppose, I mean, I don't think she wins literary awards, or does she? No.

I mean, she's a brilliant, brilliant storyteller. I think her great skill is finding, you know, a juicy tale. And I think with her latest one called Boulin Traitor, she's found Jane Boulin, who was sister-in-law to Anne Boulin. And I hadn't realised she's a character I didn't know much about, but she was a lady-waiting to four of Henry's wives. Yeah, here we don't need you to talk about this, because they already know because we interviewed the other degree last week.

No, I didn't... Well, that's me shut down. No, no, it's just, I just, we don't want to use up precious time repeating, repeating Tudor nuggets that were actually revealed. Oh, I love Tudor Nuggets. That were revealed on the programme last week. But this is from Sharon, who says, I listen to your interview en route to Waitrose, Robbie.

This is the quality of the audio. Oh, I know, I know. And what should I find strewn on the scruffy cardboard stand, which serves as the Waitrose book display? Oh, yes, yes. Amongst the Follets and the Rankins, nothing wrong with either of them. but a copy of the last Tudor. Now that's not her most recent book.

In fact, I looked that up as 2016 last year. So quite why Waitrose have got that on display now, but maybe it's been reissued. I hope other products are fresher. I assume they are. Well, I mean, Fee's got a bit of a dicky tummy, so who knows. She was a Waitrose customer. One glance at the front cover,

it just said Sisters, Rivals, Rebels, Secrets, and I'm all in. I most definitely haven't reached Peak Tudor and we'll look forward to devour to devouring this gorgeous novel over the next week. I love the phrase, Pete Tudor. They are terrific. Yeah, thank you my lucky stars.

I was not born of a noble family, circa 1520. How do you think you'd have fared if you'd been born as part of a noble family in 1520? I think I would have a job as a court fool. Do you? Yes, because I'm very good at, you know, waving hankies around and things like that. And I perform the role of truth teller.

I see, yes, okay. He said, I'm quite small and unthreatening. Yeah, actually, you know what? Like you? Well, I'm more threatening. Yes, that's true. I was waiting for you to say that, so I thought I'd say it. If Fee was here, she would have said that.

Yes, you do, I think probably you and I might have aimed at surviving on our wits at the Tudor Court. No, exactly. But I very strongly suspect that I'd have been a scullery made, and probably I'd have been lucky to be that. Oh, not with hands like that. No, I'm telling you. I don't think I'd have been a lady of the bedchamber. I'm just not high-born enough. Well, maybe the master of the king's stool.

I think, yes. Would it be a good job opportunity. Could I have been the mistress of the queen's stall? Actually, do you know what? This is no time to be laughing at royalty. Yes, no time. But on a serious note, we should just say, and I'm sure you're following this saga as much as anybody, Robbie.

But Amy Wallace, who is the woman who helped Virginia Dufray write her memoir, is on the podcast tomorrow. Oh, yeah, that's a good game. Yeah, so it'll be, and I've read. Virginia's memoir and I got a copy last week and I do you know what it's I know the word harrowing is overused but it really is harrowing yeah we've got one of our reviews speed reading at the moment for our instant review right I mean it's interesting because obviously the poor woman took her own life yeah so there's no way that the reviews can be cruel can't well oh my god

they just can't be but it just struck me reading it that the details of her early life her childhood she was a very very vulnerable young woman yeah and it's the making of her sort of a sad life isn't it i just sometimes you read books and you think how can one individual have so much poor fortune be so consistently badly treated by almost not just every man who came into our life almost every man but almost every adult yeah uh and it just it breaks your heart anyway so that is tomorrow um so just to say some people might actually by the way, find that interview just too much and not want to go there, so I understand that

but Amy Wallace is with us on the pod tomorrow. Have you read this is from Sue? She says, I heard you say you hadn't read any of Jilly's non-fiction, Jilly Cooper this is. Sue says I think you might both really like the common years. Jilly kept a diary of all the years

she'd walked her dogs on Putney Common and regales the reader with stories of her encounters with dogs and humans as well as writing about the changing seasons. It's a long time since I've read it. but I'm sure it will have stood the test of time. Do you know that book? Well, I'm looking for, I think she's going to have,

I can't remember there's diaries or letters published soon, and this should be great fun. I mean, fun enough, when she died, it was extraordinarily, I was going to use a terrible cliche outpouring group, but it was one of those few writers that everyone was kind of rather shocked by. They thought she was going to go on forever.

It did look as though she might, and I mean that in a good way, because she was still up until her, I mean, she was adding to the gaiety of the nation, wasn't she? And someone said, oh, one of the people I was talking to would see where they could write something, said she'd got a letter from her only the other couple of days before as she passed away

because she was a great letter writer, encouraging letters to all sorts of people. And if you want to be popular, I think that's the key. Yeah. Write thank you notes. Gosh, okay, I'm just... I think it's too late for me. Just forget it.

I have actually just got a copy. It arrived in the post the other day. her book about Christmas, which is very, pretty, it does look quite old. It's called How to Survive Christmas. And I think it might be something that I use as my go-to guide alongside the Mary Berry. Absolutely, I mean, it's a brilliant book, Mary Berry, just how to cook Christmas dinner. And obviously I only open it once a year, but by God it's handy. Oh, right. Yeah, it really is. I think it's Mary. Yes, it is Mary. Right. Well, your chestnuts are renowned, aren't they at Christmas time?

Yes, they are. We know you love the thought of a vacation to Europe, but this time, why not look a little further? To Dubai, a city that everyone talks about and has absolutely everything you could want from a vacation destination. From world-class hotels, record-breaking skyscrapers, and epic desert adventures, to museums that showcase the future, not just the past.

Choose from 14 flights per week between Canada and Dubai, book on emirates.ca today. This is The Business. A new weekly podcast from The Times and the Sunday Times. With me, Hannah Previtt, the Sunday Times, Associate Business Editor. And me, Dominic O'Connell from Times Radio. From boom to bust, the business tells you the inside story.

From the high street to the boardroom, will bring you unparalleled insights. We'll talk to unicorns, market movers, and city CEOs. Join us every Thursday. Search for the business from the Times on your podcast app. You're the business. Eddie, you're the business. No.

This is the business. The business is sponsored by PWC. I'm Adam Vaughn, Environment Editor at the Times. And in Planet Hope, we meet the people tackling our biggest environmental and scientific challenges. From saving penguins in Patagonia to helping people with paralysis to move again.

These are stories of science, courage and hope. Follow Planet Hope wherever you get your podcasts. Planet Hope is brought to you by The Times in paid partnership with Rolex and its Perpetual Planet Initiative. Robbie Millen, everybody. Now, you are here to talk sensibly about books.

What do you have for us this week? No, I am a very sensible mood because I've been reading lots of Muriel Spark. Because at here I'm going to be sort of all puffed up with self-importance for a moment. I'm letting you do that. And it is, I'm chairing the Bailey Gifford Prize for non-fiction, which is the kind of like the Booker Prize but for non-fiction.

That's just a little hint to everybody that you really are a significant individual. Oh, look at me. No, but you are? Well, I do all right. Yes. But one of the six books on our shortlist is Electric Spark by Francis Wilson, which is a sort of biography of Mural Spark, great novelist, Dame Mural Spark, as she was by the end.

But it kind of focuses on her early years. but so I've been at the weekend I was reading a fire cry from Kensington one of Muriel Spark's last novels but essentially based on her life in the early mid-50s when she was in publishing

and there's a character called Mrs Hawkins which essentially I think is a Muriel Spark standard and like all Muriel Spark novels they're very strange strange and funny and Francis Wilson's

biography is kind of a real reminder I mean the best thing about a biography of an author is it sends you scuttling back to the original text to which, thank you Francis Wilson, very good. And you just realise how strange the world Muriel Spark has created, it's full of blackmail, the men in it's usually pretty horrendous.

Literary men are ghastly, I think, is the general moral of Muriel Sparks life. Is that all my books? All literary men. All men? Well, yes. I suppose you're not. I suppose, yes. Literary men in particular.

Because in the late 40s, early 50s, she was running the poetry society and all these kind of sort of fat-faced poets that we've forgotten all trying to hit on her. Because she was a very sparky, voluptuous person. And she had a rough old time with them, beating them off with a ruler. Yeah, I mean, I'm tempted to say, have things changed, I don't really know. A far cry from Kensington is a boy. I've heard the title.

Yes. So is it, what, is it a romance of some sort? Or is it just an asurbic? What is it? I would say, it's a comic novel, but very offbeat. And it's about one woman's sort of journey through literary London. And there's all sorts of things where quite dark things happen. But there's sort of mural sparked during the war work at Bletchley Park, you know, sort of code breaking.

Did she? I did not know that. Exactly. A woman in many parts. So she's always interested in puzzles and strange things like that. And in this book, there's something called radionics. Apparently there was a craze in the 50s for using kind of radio frequencies to affect people's behaviour.

It was kind of like a sort of pseudoscience. They thought, oh, it could twiddle the knobs and at a distance cure someone or make them sick. She was obsessed with things like that. Right. Her Bletchley Park experience, she was either not allowed to talk about it or didn't talk about it. I don't think she talked about it much.

But I think, yeah, no, she didn't, as far as I know. I mean, she was very secretive. So she, at one stage, she actually had a biographer, official biographer, who started work on a great public of a mural spark, while she was like a mural of sparkling, cut him out, hated it, wouldn't have anything to do with him. Because she kept these archives of all her materials. She's one, you know how some people keep everything?

She's one of those people. Okay. When did she die? Oh, gosh, there's a good question. She died in 2006. I wrote that down. So she was made a dame. That's right.

She was celebrated. Yes, definitely. And she wrote Miss Jean Brody. The prime of Miss Jean Brody is probably our most famous. But there's a couple of others. Memento Moria read not so long ago, which, funnily enough, was turned into a film with Dame Maggie Smith,

who died recently. So it was funny watching. It's worth, if you can obviously read the novel, which is strange, odd telephone calls in the middle of the night, sort of saying, remember you must die and people hear different voices though

they hear different yes no it's very strange but funny as well because it is actually a makes time of old people well increasingly I'm against that there was a time when I thought that was perfectly reasonable but I'm not so sure if you look at eye player I think you can find

Momento Mori on it I sort of find it not so long okay terrific film okay so the recommendation is so I think we do a far cry from Kensington Give it a whirl. Yes. A great mural spark. Thank you for that.

What else have you got this week? I'm going to also suggest what else. I've been reading a book by Robert Douglas Fairhurst about how to read, which I was going to bring up with me, because now I realise I needed a prop. But it's a very good book about how to get most out of reading. So it will take, he's an Oxford Don, Literature Don, but he'll take something like some Sally Rooney dialogue. You know how it's all that back and forth? I wish someone would take some Sally Rooney dialogue. But he shows actually how clever it is.

Because you remember there's no quote marks and it's just, in a way it's very flat. It'll be like, you know, Marianne says, Connell says. I'm always being told that I'm just an old so-and-so because I know my eldest daughter loves Sally Rooney. She's always telling me I just don't get it as my own fault. There is a bit of a generational gap, which I'm full on the same side as you. Okay.

But I can't... What are we missing? Can you... Well, I think it's... I think she captures something in the way people talk. And I think this is what Paul and Robert Douglas Fairhurst says. That kind of very...

You know, if you overheard a conversation between people about something that matters, it's usually very flat, not very expressive, and the thing that they're really talking about is always, you know, off page. And you think, think of the most important conversations you've ever had in your life, usually the thing itself is not said.

It's usually dancing around. it. So I think that's Sally Rooney's secret power as the dialogue. Now, if you pages and pages of it after a while, yeah, you can get a bit. Because I have to say the millennials do like to

talk about their feelings a lot. Oh yeah. Don't say anything. I was, I give a little talk to any young staff about feelings that you sort of put them in paper back, you know, screw them up and push them down. And then if the feelings come back, you get some alcohol and pour it over.

Sorry, is that really serious? Is HR, can we... It's not good advice, but it's my advice. Do you know what I say to the young, Robbie? I just say, count your blessings. What have you got to complain about? I'm hugely popular. You and I are very much of our generation, but you're right.

Young people, they do. And Sally Rooney is a young person, and she's harnessing that. And she's rather good at... Definitely. I think she really sort of manages to break through all the noise and actually sort of, I think with novels you want someone that could almost like an author reach out from the page and kind of grab you by the hand and sort of saying,

I'm talking to you and you kind of know this already but I'm cleverer than you, but not in an arrogant way and I'm going to sort of show you new feelings and tell you something about yourself. This guide on reading, surely you don't need that book because presumably you read, you read, voraciously and quickly. Well, do you know what? Sometimes you do,

because someone's asked you how many books you read, and I say, well, that's a good question. But I always think that I could do a PhD on the first 50 pages of the British novel, 2013 to 2025. But often I can't go any further because I got to, you know, I'm reading it for a bit of taste to see who might, whether it's worth reviewing, who might be good to review it.

And sometimes... That's what you do. I didn't appreciate that. Yeah, so there's a lot of novels, I think, no idea what happens after page 50. And then I can't remember whether I read them or not. So you're... You're going to really enjoy the reboot of Pride and Prejudice, aren't you?

You'll be blown away. But then I sort of probably read about, oh, 100 books properly from beginning to end a year. Can I ask a question? I mean, I have found lately that I do feel now that I'm too old to carry on with a book I don't like. Oh, yeah, you should be ruthless.

Okay, dump it, dump it. That's all right, is it? Absolutely. Because sometimes, you know, the novel that's, you read today and you're not getting into it, you know, hide it in a cupboard, get it out two years hence, and then all of a sudden it will make sense to you or it'll open up to you. For me, it was like Nabokov's Lolita. I remember you were trying to read it years ago, and it was so Baroque and Rococo and its writing,

so frilly, too much. too much. And then I sort of read it a few years ago and think, yes, this is a work of genius. Okay, right. So sometimes it's worth rebooting it, going back to it when you're in the right frame of mind. Right. I think we need one more. So that book is called... And the book's called Look Closer

How to Get More Out of Reading by Robert Douglas Fairhurst. Right, okay. And what else? Just one more. One more. This, funny enough, I interviewed the author on stage at Cheltenham. It's called Scanlon-Kernigsberg by Christopher Clark and Christopher Clark wrote a very big book a huge hit called The Sleepwalks about the origins of the First World War but here he's gone micros, just 150 pages long this book

and it's about a scandal in Koenigsburg in about 1835 and already I can see your eyes glazing over thinking that's boring but it's not because he stumbled across this story fumbling through archives and it was this idea that in this East Kernexburg capital of East Prussia some young women were supposed to have expired from sexual exhaustion because they were involved in a cult so immediately is Christopher Clark's ears picked up a bit

it sounds interesting and it was so he examined what had actually happened and it was kind of like an earlier kind of media scandal it was all confacted no women had died from sexual exertion I think it's quite hard to make that happen well don't look at me But it was essentially two Lutheran ministers had developed a particularly good relationship with the women in their congregation.

They did this amazing thing of talking to the women as human beings and listening to them. Well, that won't catch on. No, that won't catch on. But it made a lot of men very nervous. These churchmen were kind of almost interfering in their private lives by listening to these women, talking to them, encouraging them to come up to make their own decisions.

So it turns out to be quite a small subject But in the end it becomes a very big theme About how the church treated women The relationship of women at the times How men spoke to women So, you know, from this small story A much bigger story emerges Okay, well that sounds, yes, okay

And that book is called Ascandid in Kernigsberg Right, by Christopher Clark That's right, yes Okay, now that's, for podcast listeners I really hope that has been just a little burst of intelligence. What's the matter, Eve?

You can put your microphone on. You're a part of this. I'll put all the titles and authors in the description of the podcast episode. Thank you very much. Thank you. We're giving Eve's quite young, as you've probably worked out. Oh, God, yeah. It's depressing, seeing her glowing face.

Yeah, and she claims to have had a heavy weekend, but it's never evident, as it's infuriating. Whereas I did have a heavy weekend, and it's only too evident. Just very quickly, for podcast purposes, is Robbie. Jane said you can, oh, yeah, that's me. This is from Nicky. Every child in the land has learned about Henry

the 8th. Well, Jane, I can tell you that a state education in Scotland in the 80s definitely didn't cover the the Tudors. Really? Why would it? She says. Oh, that's what I was here, Mary Queen of Scots. The Jacobites, yes, but we didn't touch the Tudors. And many other

notable historical events south of the border. I'm fairly sure. This will not have changed since. I wonder, I don't, I mean, obviously I don't know, surely... Yeah, I would have thought Mary Queen of Scots' relationship with Elizabeth I first, fascinating. Whether that counts as Stuart's, you know, her son, James the First, or James the Sixth, if we're... Yes, that's right.

Yes, I mean... Is it James the Sixth, Fifth? James the Sixth of Scotland's James the First, I think that's right. Yes, yeah. Because Elizabeth the Second was only Elizabeth the first in Scotland, wasn't she? Oh, yes, that would be the case. Yeah, of course. Everyone's learning something today.

Nikki says, if you're looking for historical novel, can I recommend Michelle Sloan? She'd make a wonderful guest. Her latest novel is Mrs. Burke and Mrs. Hare, and it tells the tale of the wives of Edinburgh's most famous grave robbers, Burke and Hare. Oh, that sounds good. Yeah.

Names everybody up here will be familiar with, but probably not south of the border. Nice chaps worth finding out about. They don't sound very nice, and I have heard of them. Yes, no, definitely, yeah. Yes, Nikki, we're terrible. well-informed, Robbie and I about matters north of the border.

But I did not know that they weren't talked about the truth, but then, good point. Why would they be? A new Oxfam shop has opened up in Hove, says correspondent Rosie. You might have heard about it in the news. It's caused quite a stir because Nick Cave has donated 2,000 books

from his personal collection. The charity shop is well and truly making the most of the mania by selling limited edition Nick Cave tote bags Rosie says I didn't purchase a tote bag I did have my eye though on a hardback copy of your book that's the book that Fee and I wrote which recently appeared in the front window display

perhaps Nick Cave is a fan of your work I had a day off today and finally decided to treat myself to the book before it snapped up by another Haverian Jane and Fee fan I approached the young shop assistant hoping that perhaps she designed the display and as a fan too. On asking for your book, she appeared very nervous and whispered, did you say what out loud? I then had to proceed to painfully explain that your book is in fact entitled, Did I say that out loud? Obviously, Robbie, it was news to Robbie, that was what the

book was called. She looked deeply embarrassed and scuttled off to find the book in the window. Unfortunately, she couldn't find it, so I had to go and stand outside the front window display and give her directions to the book, which was very hard to reach as it was right in the centre of the display. This was all a very British display of awkwardness. She rapidly scanned through the book and it's safe to say there was no chance at all of a chat about the book. She'd never heard of it. Anyway, there you go. Well, it's her loss, isn't it, Rosie? Yeah, it's no quiet. But thank you. That does sound a very British encounter with somebody. Yeah, anyway.

But Robbie, the Times did review the book. I can't have memory. From memory, reasonably favourably. Or was that the Guardian? No, it would be last. I don't think. I think you're wondering for the Guardian. Anyway, Robbie, thank you so much for being Fee.

Yes, I know. I don't think I did a very good job as Fee. You've been at the Times for quite some time. This must be the proudest day in your working life. Do you know, I have arrived. I was sorting out with Faber. I had to get some permissions to run the shame as heaney poem. Oh, yes, yeah.

And do you know what? It helped because the person looking after the rights said, oh, well, I do like your book recommendations on Fia and Jane. She's a big listener. There, you see, these people. There we go. You have influence in all sorts of strange places. Actually, not strange, Faber's perfectly normal.

Lovely publishing house. Well, I don't know. Brilliant for poetry. Yeah, yes. We all know where to go for poetry, and that's very much Faber. Or indeed, do you write your own poetry? No, no. Now, hang on, you went a tiny bit pink.

Have you ever written poetry? No. I think the last time was probably junior school, and it probably was about a tree. Which rhymes with Fee, so I could write a little poem. Okay, I think we've heard of this. Fee, please God get well soon. Robbie, thank you very much. It is Jane and Fee at times.com.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. We know you love the thought of a vacation to Europe, but this time, why not look a little further to Dubai, a city that everyone talks about and has absolutely everything you could want from a vacation destination, from world-class hotels, record-breaking skyscrapers, and epic desert adventures, to museums that showcase the future, not just the past. Choose from 14 flights per week between Canada and Dubai, book on emirates.ca.com.

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