Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A thunderous bra strap with three clasps and a padlock

Episode Date: July 10, 2025

It's the final Off Air episode before we take a week's hiatus. Jane and Fi will return on July 21st. Today, Jamal and Fi chat the ugly shoe phenomenon, more banned words, and pet subscriptions. Plus, Roya Nikkhah, royal editor for The Sunday Times, sits in for Jane Garvey on the Times Radio live show. She speaks to Susannah Fiennes, an artist who has worked extensively with King Charles III. The charities mentioned related to care were: Become Charity, Family Action, National Independent Visitor NetworkIf you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So I would have been a Felix or a Fergus. Oh wow! Just as long as it began with F. I don't know why. That's interesting, I would have been a Philip. A Philip? Yeah, really random. With an F? With an F.

Secretly Spanish. I'm Will Kelleher. Join me and Alex Lowe for The Red Lions, a special three-part series on the history of the British and Irish Lions from 1950 to this year's Tour of Australia. With first-hand accounts from the players themselves, it tracks the rancour and revival of rugby's greatest touring team, The Red Lions. Memories, music, match reports and more available wherever you download the Ruck Rugby podcast from The Times. This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Washington DC. The city? Yep, the one

and only Washington DC is the city for sightseeing, museum going and even outdoor adventures. It has got a variety of nightlife, dining, art and theatre with over a 100 free things to do. Why not take advantage of the city's green spaces, like biking through America's oldest national park, Rock Creek Park. Or you could see a show in a living presidential memorial. Or try out your sea legs and go kayaking around the wharf.

The list goes on and on. There's only one place you can do all of these things. There's only one DC. And this month in a special episode of the podcast, we're chatting to the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, Lonnie G. Bunch, who looks after 17 museums in the city. Sounds like it's time to plan your DC getaway. Book your trip to DC by visiting dialaflight.com forward slash WDC. It's my nervous singing. I'm a day away from my holidays and I'm in a panic.

It's awful isn't it that going away, which should be a very exciting thing, the prospect of going away, has become quite a panic-inducing thing because of all the things they have to do and sort out and the lists and the handovers and the... Yeah, the amount of pet care... Oh, pet care. ...thateds sorting. Well, I am the times has chosen a cat sitter. I know, but could you do a dog as well? So you've got to take Nancy out. Nancy's, I don't mean needy, you don't want to say needy,

but she requires a lot of care, doesn't she? Well Well greyhounds are remarkably independent creatures actually because they sleep for about 22 hours a day but in the hot weather you just have to get up very early to take them for a walk and there's an awful lot of coaxing involved. I do get up very early to take myself out for a spin. I tell you what Jamal you're talking yourself into some serious cat and dog sitting here Jane Garvey doesn't trust me enough to let me look after her cat well she's told me that many times but that's fine you know I'm looking after Robert Crampton's new kittens for a week in August which I'm quite excited

about Robert Crampton's got kittens yeah and he hasn't brought them into work not yet I think they've only just had their jabs oh wouldn't it be be lovely if you brought us kittens into work. I know we'd get nothing done. We'd get nothing done but everybody would be happy. Wouldn't it be adorable. I'm going to ask him if I bump into him. So just to let you know today's outfit is a mash-up of First Lady and Wimbledon. First Lady goes to Wimbledon. I wore it specially for you. Thank you. I love your shoes. Oh gosh they're very old and not glamorous at all, but thanks. They're kind of jelly. The Marks and Spencers sort of Birkenstocks.

They're built to look like Birkenstocks. Is it Birkenstock or sock? Birkenstock. Stock. Stock. You've really confused me now. Okay, well we're throwing away the opportunity for them to sponsor the podcast. And they'd be perfect as well. First arrived kind of here in a fashion sense. I couldn't believe it. I just thought you've got to be kidding.

I mean even on the it's so ugly it's beautiful scale. Yeah. And they weren't doing it for me at all. And the funny things that they've got in them that you know what do they call? Straps. No, the bottom of the sole that kind of moulds up. Oh yeah. You know, it's like a memory foam mattress. Yeah, for your toes. Isn't it? Well that doesn't work for everybody's toe and it didn't work for mine. No.

So I'm sorry about that. It is interesting, the ugly shoe phenomenon. I remember Harriet Walker, our very stylish fashion editor, about three summers ago when I laughed at a piece that she wrote for the magazine about, you know, glittering her crocs and I just, I was just like, they are so revolting and you are so stylish and what are you doing writing about them? She was like, mark my words, next summer I'll be the one after. Nope, still not, still think they're absolutely appalling. Those are going nowhere near my feet. I don't even like them on my six-year-old nephew. I think he could do better himself. But anyway, Crocs, no. Birkenstocks, yes. A utility sandal, though, also no. It's like a fine line between a Birkenstock, which I like, and a very sort of practical utility sandal, activity sandal, no. And a ballet pump. Oh, I look, my cankles in a ballet pump. Nobody wants to see that. They just don't do anything for your legs, a ballet pump.

They are deeply, deeply unflattering. So we could have done a list as long as the banned words and horrible words of just clothes that we don't like. Do you know what, I'm going to just rest this one here for everybody to consider as well. The backless dress. No. No. I mean, it may look great from the back, but then when you turn around and everything has been released it just doesn't work. I mean if you're

over the age of about eight as a woman it just doesn't work. Stop doing it. Stop it. Stop it right now. What about a backless dress with a bra? No. I mean come on. No, come on. I'm just putting it out there. I'm not saying I do. But then what's the point of the backless dress? I mean, you know... Show off your brown back. But with a great big bra strap. In my case, a thunderous bra strap across it. With three clasps all in a row.

And a padlock. It doesn't work at all. But look, nice things we can consider is the, is nice things are, I'll start that again. The nice thing we could now consider is, you can leave that in if you care, I'm on my holiday from tomorrow. Floral thing, you know, poof poof poof. I'm fading away here. It's like the last dev term, isn't it? I brought ludo in.

Yeah, we'll sing some songs in Latin in a minute. We literally had to. Wheels off! Kay joins us from Hamilton in New Zealand. Is that Hamilton in New Zealand, Kay? A ton of puns. That's absolutely terrible. She addresses us as Fee Jane, Eve Rosie and your essential Jamal Clipon. Thank you Kay. Now the playlist has a couple of hours worth of great tracks on it. She says I sampled it on Shuffle tonight. It's awesome and eclectic, I just love it. Thanks to all your unofficial off-air volunteer crew for contributing. It's a crew in which I count myself a loyal member. And Jo,

I was listening to it on the way in myself Kay and it's just a wonderful wonderful playlist eventually it will get so big that we'll have to stop but it is growing at the moment and you get back-to-back extraordinary things Kay says thank you for including two of my song suggestions two is the absolute max the Rachel Yamagata track meet me by the water I thought were particularly appealed to you, Fi, in its languishing, dreamlike sensuality. And if I ever had an opportunity to rechristen myself, it would be languishing, dreamlike sensuality. It's a beautiful one and I've not come across that before and that is the joy of the playlist. It's introducing everybody

to some great stuff. So thank you very much indeed for that and Kay says when are you going to add some track choices of your own Jane come on add in September by Earth Wind and Fire so I think we are only a week away from Dance Yourself Dizzy by Liquid Gold being added by Jane Garvey one of her favourite tracks and she's right to like it. It is impossible to stay outside of the dance floor track that one. So I think we've each got a track in there at the moment haven't we? I think she hasn't done Ronan Keating yet, life is a roller coaster. I'll just check actually before saying that one of the tracks is hers but

yeah we will bung some in. We might bung them in mysteriously and not tell you which ones they are. I might just bung some in while you're on holiday so you don't know. What would be your one song contribution? And it doesn't have to be your favorite song all the time. It's just one that fits the off air playlist. I think the one that I would probably have to sort of

play me in if I was coming into a room to make me feel really good would be Kids by MGMT. What? Kids by MGMT. Do do do do do do do do do. Even I am practically MGMT. Can I repeat the question? What? Okay, I'm going to pop it in the playlist then you can have a listen. Confirmation names. Yesterday we were talking about your Fiona, Susan, Grace.

No, it's Jane. It's Jane Susan Garvey and Fiona Susanna. Susanna Grace. Jane, Alan, Elizabeth Mark-Harens. Hyphy and Jane Marion comes in to say, I too have a confirmation named Jessica. I'd wanted Jessie as it was biblical, but the priest said I had to have the feminine version.

Exclamation mark. Come on, Marion. My husband, brackets atheist, has always argued it's not part of my name. I don't have strong feelings about it. And of course I don't use it quite right too because it's not real. So when completing Forms for Teacher Training College 30 years ago I playfully added it to my name. Marion Patricia Jessica Stevens. I didn't think much of it until receiving my teaching certificate which of course included Jessica

and still does to this day. I wonder if that invalidates my qualification. No exclamation mark. I hate them too but you used one earlier on. Marian, have a look at your first paragraph, that's all I'm saying. I said that in my best teacher voice and I don't even have a qualification, but I do have two teacher parents, so I can do a teacher look and I can do a tone. So just to say that the exclamation marks come back in, in a week's time, where you can pepper your emails with them and we won't get upset. But I really do appreciate how much you've all censored yourself for me.

You catch on, you lot. I love you. You catch on really quickly. Oh no, they're quite rebellious. Don't push them too far. So what would you have been called if you were a boy, do you know? Yes. So Jane and I did discuss this actually the other day so I would have been a Felix or a Fergus Oh, wow, just as long as it began with F. I don't know why I don't know why. That's interesting, I'd have been a Philip. A Philip? Yeah, really random. With an F? With an F Secretly Spanish Yeah, I'd have been a Philip which I can't really imagine. You're just not a villain. I'm not, no, on many levels. On many, many levels.

I was, actually my friend who has taken Jamal and really run with it, we were also discussing one of his pet hates recently, which is people who introduce themselves by their nickname. He really, really objects to it. What, like moth? Yeah, exactly. Hey, I'm moth. So if all of the things

that have come out of the salt path revelations about the salt path, I'm amazed that nobody had questioned moth before. As a name. And he never looked like a moth. If I imagine a moth, maybe I just imagine someone a bit more biker-y, you know. Yes. Do we know why he was called moth? Absolutely no idea and I wouldn't believe him anyway now. No, I mean it's such a difficult thing that isn't it? If you're not across this, because I suspect it's not been... Sorry, I'm pretty confused. Some people are.

Such a big story outside of the UK or maybe it has because it was an international bestseller. So a woman called Raina Wynne wrote a memoir called The Salt Path which was, we all thought, at the time and subsequently, and I think it was on the bestseller list for a couple of years, about her and her husband having had their house repossessed and having kind of no past and no future. So they decided to put one foot in front of the other and walk the salt path which is 630 miles of beautiful coast in southwest of the UK. But subsequent revelations from the Observer newspaper have suggested that elements of that story really aren't standing up to any kind of scrutiny at all.

And I think it's really heartbreaking for the people who loved the book. And actually quite a few people have said it did something to us. So Moth had been diagnosed with an illness that for most people is severely life-limiting, like within five or eight years your demise is pretty concrete and 18 years later I think he's still okay. And doing marathons in that time. Yes, but for an awful lot of people who found themselves in that similar situation, it was a book of immense hope. So it's so difficult, isn't it? I mean, cracking scoop by The Observer last Sunday, absolutely amazing scoop. Yeah, there's been an awful lot of discussion about it afterwards.

Yeah, people who love the book found solace and hope in it and just feeling really let down and devastated and it sort of, people question themselves and the things that they'd put faith and hope in. Well also it just made me think why didn't I write a book that's just absolute bollocks because you know I've got an alternative life story that occasionally I'm living but it's not the true one. The one where you've got my visor on. It's much more interesting than my own life and I could just have, I could just have sailed

into the bestseller lists with that. It also makes me just wonder about the levels of scrutiny you know when you are publishing memoir I mean who checks it? Do they not get legaled in the same way that literally everything that leaves my typewriter gets legaled? That's interesting isn't it so it's a completely different bar if you're publishing work of fiction but I think a lot's come out about what's in the contracts between authors and publishers and actually that's a really interesting area of discussion anyway. A very very very well-known top-of-the-charts author told me the other day that her contract for

her recent novel included a clause saying that she had never used any form of artificial intelligence or a large language learning model for any part of the plot or any characterization or anything. And I thought, oh my god, okay, because who wouldn't feel that it was completely okay, actually. I've switched myself off. Sorry. You felt so passionately about it. feel that it was completely okay, actually, I've switched myself off, sorry. You felt so passionately about it. Who wouldn't feel that it was okay as a writer to maybe, you know, need to know something about the scenery in a different place that you're writing about whatever and think,

oh, okay, well, actually, chat GPT would be able to tell me that. So it's interesting, isn't it? I'd not heard of that before. And also, I found that really, I had to do a bit of a kind of what? Because Jane, Garvey and I have often had a conversation off the back of this podcast about having to interview authors who patently have published a book where the only thing that they've written is their name on the cover. So they're not signing that contract. So how's the reader meant to know who signed a contract saying this is absolutely your own work

and then who has signed a contract saying it's nothing to do with me? And did I read something in there, or maybe I've just imagined this, maybe I just dreamt this, that there are books now being published which are flagged as being partly AI generated. Or did I just make that up? No, you didn't make that up because an awful lot of romant-acy... That's right, yes, yes. ...contains AI and I think sometimes some authors are quite proud of that collaboration as well

and there's a whole sub-genre, isn't there, of romantic fiction kind of way, way, way below Mills and Boone, who, you know, obviously the world leaders in, and then she fell into his arms. There's a whole genre of that that rather prides itself on being the same. So you know you buy into an author who's working within a kind of chat GPT remit. So that's weird isn't it? It is weird. But can I use this as a craven segue to talk about, I'm doing a new show this summer. No, stop it. No, no, but it's relevant. I'm fitting in for Adam Bolton, the mighty Adam Bolton, who's going on his holidays for seven whole

weeks, which is, I hope, one day to be that important that I get seven weeks off in the summer. Anyway, his show is 10 to 1 on Sundays and I'm going to be doing it for the next seven weeks. And it's going to be a bit of politics and news and international news, but lots of culture and a sprinkling of celebrity, as it says in the trail. My first big guest is Bjorn from ABBA, who is actually using AI partly to help him write a new musical. So we talk about that and it's really interesting. He says very quickly that it's no replacement for a human and it's not like having Benny in the studio with him but it is cheaper and it's

available 24-7 so if he wakes up in the middle of the night and thinks I need to crack on with something. But he says what it's useful for is that thing that you were just sort of saying about you know wondering about what another landscape looks like or another country or something. And it can sort of, it can help you just crack into like a slightly, I guess, a slightly, you know, left field path that you might not have thought of. But he said what it really is bad at is originality. It just can't come up with anything original yet. But anyway, Be Your Own from ABBA is my first big guest on Sunday. That'll be on towards the end of the show, so please tune in from 10 to 1. But that's so interesting, and of course I will, of course I will. And it's so interesting that last bit there about

originality, because I think with ABBA you want the same. So in fact if he brings out a new musical or you, if they wrote a new album, I would be fearful that they'd moved into a more experimental genre using only the 18th century lute. You know, you want that great big... It's not sounding like the yeah, yeah, yeah, it would be odd. Yes, you want the key changes, the mod modulation, everything that you associate with ABBA, which I suppose is why for some readers, knowing that a book has been generated from the same grok

or, you know, chat GPT or XAI or whatever it is, actually means you know what you're getting. Yeah, absolutely. In the same way that you buy a lead child because you know what you're getting. In the same way that you watch, you know, a procedure on television. Yeah. Because you know what you're going to get. It's that you watch, you know, a procedure on television, because you know

what you're going to get. It's interesting, isn't it? It is interesting. We're finding it interesting. Other people may have left us completely. Can I just bring in banned words, because these have turned out to be fantastic and there isn't a single one that's mentioned that I haven't gone, yeah, I hate that too. This comes from Amy, who says she wanted to share her hatred of the word utilize. 100% Amy. What is wrong with the word use? Does it lack an air of technicality or importance?

Is it not impressive enough to simply use something? I don't think so. Never use a big word when a small one will do the job. I'm not sure about that actually. Another one is dehydrated. Surely if we are really dehydrated we should be in hospital, perhaps thirsty, doesn't convey in hospital, perhaps thirsty. Doesn't convey an adequate sense of peril.

I live in France for 14 years and came back 10 years ago now to find vast numbers of the population were saying utilize driving ridiculously large SUVs. Had given up on using indicators in cars, especially when leaving roundabouts. Maybe this is due to dehydration. This is not a complete list of my bugbear, says Amy, but I don't want to use too much of your time. Don't worry about reading this

out. I'm just so happy to have the chance to vent. Well, Amy, send us more. Yeah, please give us your full list when you've got time. You write a cracking email and you made us laugh. This isn't even a word, but my colleague and I, who's on maternity leave at the moment and I miss her dearly, we really, really object to the use of myself and yourself when it should be me and you. So, you know, will that work for yourself? Well, you won't want for yourself. It's just people using myself and yourself and actually I sent her a little clip from poor old Christian Horner, you know, getting sacked or sad. There's a video of him on the Times Radio Twitter saying, they're very supportive of myself.

That's weird, isn't it? My friend, she said he didn't really say that. I was like, here's a clip. Yeah, they're very supportive of myself. Like people who refer to themselves in the third person, isn't it? They're very supportive of Christian Hor Like people who refer to themselves in the third person, isn't it? They're very supportive of Christian Horner, so it's Christian Horner. Also coming in from Sarah on the band list, profound and radical, says Sarah. Generally linked to things that are neither profound nor radical. Radical candor? No, just being honest. Sarah is very rebellious, she says says I love an exclamation mark and an

emoji and I'm not afraid to say we'll miss you desperately when you're off next week. Perhaps I'll listen back to some oldies and compose a longer email. Please do Sarah with all of your banned words please. Yes, you could just do some kind of randoms back into the deep and distant past. When we thought that things were going to get better. I like those episodes the most. This comes in from Denise, long time listener. I've had a few emails read out. So stay where you are Eve. I recommended Leonard and Hungry Paul. She wasn't even moving though, was she? She had no danger of her springing into action. She was not a coiled spring. She was arms folded, leaning back. Oh Eve. Denise recommended Lennard and Hungry Paul

and I can't thank you enough for that because I'm just really really really enjoying it and I'm looking forward to talking about it. It's the book club book and we'll do that the first week where Jane and I are reunited. A few weeks ago someone you interviewed mentioned how there is a way of volunteering to meet with a child in care once a month. Could you tell me which episode that was please? I've been telling people about it and they'd like to do it but I can't find what it was called. I've googled it and I can't find anything. So I think that's probably the episode with Jess who was in care and then did brilliantly to get herself to university and now does quite a lot of

ambassadorial work talking to people like us about her situation and she came to us via the Become charity which is really worth looking at if you want to find out more about getting involved and Family Action is also a charity that does the mentoring scheme that you're talking about particularly for, so it wouldn't be children actually, it's when they become young adults and the care system actually really leaves you behind. So if you want to contact either of those charities they would certainly be able to put you on your journey. Do you think that that's what you talked about with Garth? No, I think there was another strand to this when Jane and I were doing a podcast a few weeks ago. And it was talking about people who, it was off the back of a fostering discussion actually,

and people who were perhaps wanted to give some time to children but couldn't do full-time fostering. And there is this thing called independent visitors where you go and you can just spend a few hours a month with children who are in care and it's called the National Independent Visitor Network. You can Google that. They've got local branches in different cities but there's also a national organisation and neither has had ever heard of it before and it was really interesting people, some of our lovely listeners, wrote in to tell us about it. Right so hopefully you'll be able to find what you need from that and Eve has just done a fantastic

charade of typing with two fingers which means that she's going to pop it in the description so you'll be able to follow the links from there as well. So Denise then goes on to say, I've just listened to Vasos Alexander. Loved him. Reminded of when I was swimming in Donegal. I noticed someone in the distance swimming back and forward from one headland to the next. I found out that she had swum from Northern Ireland to Scotland. What?

Which sounds pretty gruelling. Where the Irish Sea meets the Atlantic. She did it on her fourth attempt. The lion's mane jellyfish sounded hideous but she had also swum across the Bering Strait. Amazing woman. Well yes, and Denise says have a great holiday. We certainly will. But you know what, there is something about women in this open water swimming category that is just mind-boggling actually. So many of the most terrifying pieces of water in the world have been swum by women. And I mean I know that we benefit from it in some way don't we?

A lot of people say that the cold water swimming, certainly in our time of life, becomes really addictive. It's doing something to all of us but there's quite a difference between popping into the West Reservoir in the morning and swimming across the Bering Strait. In defence of partner Jack comes in to push back on my dislike of the word partner and you were very, yeah, you're very well within your rights Jack. Dear Jamal and Thee, after Jamal's mention of it in her band words, I thought I'd write in defence of the term partner. It's one of the few gender neutral terms we have for loved one,

or not so loved, depending on the day, and therefore is a great way for people in same-sex relationships to avoid having to come out repeatedly to new people, colleagues or others in situations where one's sexuality is entirely irrelevant. That's a very good point, Jack, and very well made. In fact, if everyone used it, says Jack, instead of gendered terms like wife or boyfriend, wouldn't it all be so much easier? No assumptions about the gender of your partner, your sexuality or your marital status. All things which should be irrelevant to anyone who isn't a close

friend. Very good point. Well made. Jack also adds a PS. Will we ever get James Marlon Fee in a three-way episode at some point? Nope. No, it's a throuple. I can't do that. Someone always gets left out and feels like they're Marlon Fee in a three-way episode at some point? Nope. No, it's a throuple. Yeah, no, someone always gets left out and feels like they're not getting enough attention in a throuple. So do you want my daughter and I were watching First Dates the other evening and there was a throuple set up on that and I mean good on you if you can manage that but we, you know, we both just thought this that's just rife a disaster. It's just, you're going to have a bit of an upset somewhere along the line in that. I can't get my head around it at all.

It's never an equilateral triangle, is it? No. Also, we haven't got enough microphones and your app will explode. Yep. And no one will get a word in edgeways. Who wants to be the small angle in the isosceles? Right, I actually can't remember which is the isosceles and which is the is the isosceles the one with the big angle at the top and the two small angles at the bottom. We've got lots

of lovely maths teachers so I'm sure somebody will be able to correct me on that. Right we're almost out of time. I just want to say a huge thank you to Carol because I tend to go through the emails about 6.30 in the morning when I wake up and sometimes you send us things that just make me laugh out loud or they're really informative. It's just a really, really lovely, lovely way to start the day. Oh, on the subject of sometimes it not being, Lily, can you send your email again? Lily sent a very honest email. It was somewhat of a critique of my performance. At 6.30 in the morning, it didn't strike the right chord, Lily, but could you send it again, please, because I do want to take another look at it.

Did you accidentally delete it? Not accidentally. No, not accidentally at all. But I regret that now, Lily. And you're Lily with two L's. You know who you are. Don't be scared. Send it again. Anyway, back to Carol. You sent the most fantastic video, and here is what it's about. I listen with great interest to your recent discussion about the treatment of Rachel Reeves when she was visibly upset during PMQs.

And Carol listens to us from Valencia in Spain, where she's lived for the past 36 years. I thought you might appreciate seeing this short video. It was recorded in our parliament today after President Pedro Sánchez spoke about the recent passing of Yolanda Díaz's father, a trade unionist who died of cancer. The entire chamber applauded in remembrance. Yolanda Díaz was visibly overcome with emotion and while her colleagues from all parties applauded the memory of her

father, one embraced and kissed her. It was a moving moment of shared humanity. We should always expect empathy when somebody is visibly suffering. There is no excuse for unnecessary cruelty or unkindness." So Carol, I watched that video and it is just lovely. So obviously there'll be within that parliament people who really weren't on the same kind of political side as Yolanda Diaz's father, but everybody is applauding. She's obviously having a terrible day at work and grieving too, and her colleague next door to her just leans in and gives her a great big hug and a kiss on her forehead. And you just don't really see that. You realize how infrequently you see that display of kindness in that political setting. And it absolutely made

my day to see it. So thank you very much indeed for sending it in. We have to say welcome to the guest. Do you have one tiny one you'd like to do first? I do have a tiny one to do first. It's from Katrina and I think it's the perfect sign off before a Wimbledon weekend. Dear Fian Jane, our cat Biscuit, I've got a friend Zoe with a dog called Biscuit, obviously a very good name, has carefully crafted a reputation as the local feisty Ginger Tom but appears to be gentrifying in his middle age. Last summer I caught him sitting at an open window entranced by the distant sounds for Whitney Houston Tribute Act. On Sunday I came downstairs to discover him relaxing on a sofa to Classic FM, it's still a mystery how he got Alexa to start it. And just yesterday he was hooked by Wimbledon for a good half an hour watching Djokovic's

every move. I fully expect to receive an email before Christmas notifying me that he's taken out a subscription to The Times. Thank you Katrina. We're here for all your pet subscriptions. And you just go to thetimes.com if you need to take it out. Lovely stuff. Incoming, it's a guest with a royal theme

because this week, well, part of the week, I've been co-hosting with The Sunday Times' Ryan Neaker. So take it away. From today, visitors to the state rooms at Buckingham Palace will have the chance to see an exhibition of paintings from King Charles' own collection, many of which are going on to public display for the first time. The show, The King's Tour Artist, provides glimpses of life on royal tours over five

decades. While Susanna Fiennes is one of the featured artists and she joined the King on his tours to Oman, Hong Kong and the Falkland Islands, I spoke to Susanna and I asked her how on earth you come onto the Prince of Wales' radar as he was. I had no preparation from a call I got from his office saying Emma Sargent has given the Prince, the then Prince, your name. Would you like to join him on a trip to Oman? And Emma Sargent was? She was a friend of mine at art school. We'd been at the Slade together. Another artist. Yeah, and she'd been on a trip with him and he always asks to recommend somebody to go

on another trip and she'd kindly given him my name but she'd forgotten to tell me so I wasn't expecting that. So you got a call just saying do you fancy coming on a trip? I thought it was a joke. And which was the first trip that you did with him? It was Oman and it was the anniversary, the 25th anniversary of the Sultan's reign and it was a sort of celebration of that so it was a very merry trip, there was nothing politically sensitive, and so we saw all the wonderful bits of the country, flew around in helicopters in the mountains, went to the palaces. I sat in such heat in the souq, painting all the people who were gathered round me.

And it's challenging because you're jet-lagged and it's very hot, and you want to produce as much as you can but you're in fairly strange circumstances. And when you were on that trip, that first trip with him, was there any sort of directional protocol of things that he wanted you to paint or were you given quite free reign to do whatever you wanted? Interesting, complete free reign. He said to me on the airplane, which was the first time I met him, he just said do anything you like. Which must be music to an artist's ears. Well in some ways, you know, what incredible freedom. But in other ways it presents a different kind of challenge because you've got to, you basically want to do everything. And that's that's very demanding, especially in those, you know, in that heat and everything.

But so I did, I, you know, sometimes there's a lot of sitting around, I'd sit and draw the Minister for Water Resources, while we were waiting to go on our next visit somewhere. So you had to be very resourceful. And you have a studio here in my work in London. I did have a studio here, am I right in thinking in London? I did have a studio in London, now I have one in Wales. What's the difference between working from a studio with everything set up just as you like, you know your easel's there, your paints are there, to being on tour? And I know from tours with The King, things can move at a very very fast pace, engagement to engagement,

so what are the challenges of that? That's so true. You're always worrying. So you're trying to do your work and be professional, but you're thinking the motorcade is about to leave. Am I going to get left behind? And that's a common theme. All of the artists we were discussing it yesterday, we all had that experience. So when you're back in the studio, of course, it's a controlled environment, not least the temperature. So for example, painting watercolours in the desert, Oman, where it was 40 degrees, the water evaporates very quickly, so you're not prepared for that. And it creates a very exciting dynamic.

Back in the studio, you can then be more reflective and you can develop the ideas which I did, I then, the then Prince, got to choose what he wanted and then I could exhibit the other pictures. Because that's how it works isn't it, at the end of each trip he will go through the work that each artist produces, he chooses a few for his own private collection, and those are the pictures that are on display at Buckingham Palace at the moment for the summer opening, and those hang in his own royal residences, and then the rest you're able to sell and exhibit however you want. Yes, no constraints about that. He's very, very generous in that he, yes, he gets first choice, which is only fair, but he then allows you to use the work in whatever way you like. Can we talk a little bit about that trip to Hong Kong in 1997, because that was so heavy with emotion and obviously,

you know, political resonance, the handover back to China was very sensitive. It was a very historic moment. I think everyone remembers that ceremony that the Prince of Wales attended, the luring of the flag. And you were there. I mean, you went on Royal York Britannia again,

which was decommissioned later that year. So remember the Queen Shed a tear at that decommissioning service for Britannia. What was it like being on board with the Prince of Wales going on such an historic trip? Well, I never tire of reminiscing. It was the most incredible experience. And but again, a lot of pressure. I think it was a seven hour time difference so you fly into Hong Kong and then you're immediately then we were on the yacht

or in the yacht as we're meant to call it because it's a palace and from then on it's just work work work but also a lot of formal celebrations a lot of people coming on the yacht in the yacht to be to be entertained and so sometimes I part of that, or sometimes I was with the staff. Either way, it was wonderful. And yes, as you say, significant, massively significant historically, handing back Hong Kong. Luckily, I wasn't too, I think I wasn't too aware of the enormity of that event, because more present in a way was the demise of the Royal Yacht.

It was its last official voyage. Was Charles quite sad about that? Did you talk to him about that? I don't remember an exact conversation. I certainly remember the Commodore was sad about it, as you'd expect. You know, this was their home. It's their home. There are over 200 sailors there. And it is a very, very special, very luxurious, but in an old fashioned way. Everything's sort of horsehair mattresses. And I don't think it had been refurbished. There was a lovely old switchboard by the bed, which was a time warp. I hope, I think it's all been preserved. And the engine rooms, we had a tour of the engine rooms, which are copper and but sadly they weren't able to somehow modernize it. I think that would have been amazing because

what I saw actually was the role it played in sort of soft diplomacy. The people that came there were so thrilled, we were all so thrilled to be there. And I think that does an awful lot of good and why not continue it. Did he seem, I mean the Queen often talked about it being a home away from home. Did the Prince of Wales as he was then seem quite relaxed on Port Britannia? Oh I would say so. Every morning at breakfast we had our little copy of the Royal Yacht Times. All photocopied out, printed on each person's place at the table. We had chapel on Sunday in the dining room, the dining room became the chapel. We had a wonderful day at sea, because it was monsoon, it was very rough the first day because we sailed to Manila. Then the second day, it was a beautiful day,

and we were strapped up in harnesses because we had a lot of battleships accompanying us away from Hong Kong to protect us. And there's a formal thing where the yacht sails down the middle of this avenue of battleships with all the sailors are standing on board saluting and the Royal Yacht sails down, it's called a sail past I think, it's a tradition. And then we got strapped up into these harnesses and we were, it's called Jack's Day, where you get hurled across the sea on a rope and the brass band was playing and we got hurled across to the battleship that was right next to us. And I mean, that was entertainment, but I think it's also a sort of naval tradition of some sort. And then we went up in a Sea King helicopter and flew

around. I mean sounds fantastic. It was incredible. I mean the beautiful work which you produced from that trip, I mean you produced quite a few, but the one that I saw at Buckingham Palace earlier this week which is on display for this exhibition is The Two Yachtsmen and talk to me a little bit about how you came to paint that and the sort of the resonance behind that as well because it sounded quite emotional. I think that did in a way capture the whole, the essence of it, which was the evening ritual of the lowering of the flag and always with the band playing something, some beautiful things and I think that symbolized this valedictory quality of the whole event. It was goodbye to Hong Kong,

it was goodbye to the yacht and these sailors, these all beautiful in their white and I actually just painted what was around them. I left the paper blank and I just painted, I did it actually back in the studio where I could control it and I just made it, I sort of painted the negative space around them and revealed them. Were there any of the trips that you did and we'll come on to the touch on the Falklands in a moment, were there any works that the prince was particularly taken by? The ones that he took into his private collection, obviously that one. Are there any others that you'd sort of really stand out?

Of my work in particular, or the others. Yeah, your work. Well, he's got, it was rather interesting to see them yesterday because I hadn't remembered actually what he'd got but there was one of a bedouin that I'd, we'd sat under a tree in intense heat in the desert and with some bedouin and he, I did some, I did a drawing of this bedouin which I then took back and I did a lot of paintings of this face with his wonderful pink turban. And he chose that because he liked that. And then there was one of the Gauchos.

We went to Argentina in 99. And I saw all these wonderful cowboys on their horses and did some drawings of them and made that into a painting when I got home. So I was really pleased to see that because I'd rather forgotten about it. And when you go to somewhere like the Falklands, obviously with all the sensitivities around the Falklands and the UK and an official trip, how does that affect you? What are your memories of that trip and how that

affected how you worked, if at all? That was very interesting because, as you say, it was a very different mood from Oman and Hong Kong, because it was more to do with going back there after the war. It was the first visit of a British royal to Argentina, and so there had to be a reference to the war, but it was very diplomatically sensitive. And I remember the Foreign Office person who came was helping to write the speech and just pitch it exactly right so that it was conciliatory and, you know, let's be friends kind of thing. So that was very exciting in a way to be to witness that. And then there was, of course, the tango dancing, which was fun.

And that lent, you know, we all needed a bit of light relief as well. And then we flew to Uruguay where the then prince was really thanking the Uruguayan government for their role in helping the British during the war. We then went to the Falklands where the mist came down and it felt as they were in Scotland, it's that kind of landscape. And very movingly we went to the graveyards and the King, Prince laid wreaths at those sites. And that was extremely moving. Can I just ask you finally, I know that you were at Buckingham Palace yesterday

when the King and Queen had a tour through the exhibition and you had a chance to speak to him and see him, probably having not seen him for a while. How was that? How was your chat and how was he? It was so lovely to see him again and he'd come straight from the French visit so I think he, you'd expect he would have been exhausted but he spent at least an hour and a half and he went round all the artists and all the people, we all brought somebody with us. His professionalism, his warmth, his kindness, it's just impossible

to say how much I admire him and how fond I feel and how privileged and grateful I am. Susanna Fiennes and a huge thank you to Roya. It's been a real pleasure to do the program with her this week. There's so much that she's seen that she manages in a really lovely way to calibrate and regurgitate in an enticing way for us civilians. I think she does it. It must be a nightmare job. I wouldn't be able to do it. You know, the self-editing that was going in her head before she does all those things. Oh no, we'd be terrible at it. Really terrible. It would last five minutes. And just knowing that line between the bits that you

can tell people and the bits that you can't. No, I cross that all the time. Anyway, lovely to have your company this week on the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. So if you want more of Jemal Kerens, she is available on the Times radio during the summer. She is a very, very wonderful replacement for Adam Bolton. Different styles, I'd say. Slightly different styles. Yeah, but I look forward to hearing your style. Have a lovely week. Jane Garvey and I return the Monday after next.

Enjoy the sunshine. Keep cool. Have a fabulous holiday. Thank you. Merci. Merci à vous. Congratulations, you've staggered somehow to the end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4pm on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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