Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A wee of almost bovine quantities (with Miriam Margolyes)

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

The festive season is staggering towards us, and Jane and Fi are staggering with it. Not just that, but Jane has been doing Christmas shopping, and almost crying. Before that resumed, they talk hot drinks, disorganised criminals, and ask why is thrush called thrush? They're also joined by the legend Miriam Margolyes. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] We're up for an award! You can vote for us here, if you'd like: https://podbiblemag.com/pod-bible-listener-polls-2023-vote-now/ Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Megan McElroy Times Radio Producer: Eve Salusbury Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. There she is. Come on in.

Come on in. We're on Fast Track Monday, Jane. Come on. How are you? How am I? I'm not the same as I was when I went to the loo. Well, obviously it's always lovely to get back. Yeah.

I've often thought, would you be that much lighter if you weighed yourself after you'd been to the loo? I mean, you must be, physically. But I'm not sure that ever happens. I don't think I'm going to keep scales in the loo. But, you know, sometimes... This is too niche even for me, this. When you do a wee that's of almost kind of bovine quantities. Well, that wasn't, I can assure you.

You do think. Lost about half a stone there. Right, welcome to Off Air. It's with Jane and Fi. We're a little bit giddy and it's only going to get worse because we are in the final furlong of the pre-Christmas thing, aren't we? We're in the kind of the foothills of the festive season. We are.

Yeah. We've only got four days to go at work. Footling about, looking for our pack-a-mac. That's where we are. And already lots of people are off. Did you have a very busy weekend? I did a lot. I actually sent some cards.

I did some. I went to my local shopping thing, you know, massive shopping centre, completely, not for the first time, misjudged it, went in far too many layers, sweating cobs within about half an hour of arriving, rammed by half past ten on Saturday morning. I almost cried.

I just thought, why have I come here? Why have I come here? They can be very difficult Saturdays. And then you just end up buying four things from Wittards that nobody's going to want. I mean, I know what you mean about Wittards. Is that the shop of last resort? I think sometimes.

It's the shop for relations who you don't know that well. I think that's what Wittards can do. I didn't want to say that. Quite often I used to get from one relative who I'm not in touch with anymore. I used to get something that was obviously from the Wittards kind of bargain basket.

Oh, I didn't know they had one. I'll pop in again now. I mean, there are plenty of other shops we could lob in this particular category. So we don't want to be fed up. But you're on safe ground with something tea or coffee oriented, don't you, for a slightly difficult relative? I mean, I don't, I know lots of people have been emailing about squash

over the weekend, but I don't, fundamentally, my antennae start to twitch when I meet someone who drinks neither tea nor coffee. Yeah, I know what you mean. And people who say, no, I don't do hot beverages. What's wrong with you? You're a bot. There's just something wrong with you.

I've been in communication with a bot because I've been trying to cancel this hotel booking that doesn't exist. Apparently I did book it through one of those websites you can book hotels through, except the bot I was talking to from this website has no record of my booking and says I can't cancel it because it doesn't exist. But the hotel says it does exist.

I can't cancel it through them because I've got to do it through the website. But the website say I didn't do it through them. We're going round and round in circles. You're caught in a loop. So I did a very stupid thing this morning. I only had eight first-class stamps. I'd bought a book of eight and I am sending... Can I just say, they are a price.

They are, aren't they? So I thought, well, I'm just sending eight cards. I've got, you know, eight people who I really definitely need to send the cards to, so I'm just going to send eight cards. So I'd stuck my stamps on my envelopes before I'd written them. Yep. And I was opening... Just a moment, we've got Miriam Margulies

coming up, by the way. Yeah, stay with us. And I was opening the post because I thought, well, I'd better just check in case that person sent me one and they're really going to want a response. And one of the things that I opened was actually one of those notice of prosecution from the Metropolitan Police

for another driving offence. So can you see what I've done here, Jane? What have you done? Well, because I didn't want to have to go and buy another stamp to send to the police so I sent them a card. Right. You've sent them... Well, I filled out my form.

Yeah. And I thought, well, I've put this stamp on the envelope now. I can't waste that. So I've put my little prosecution thingy. I've accepted the charge. Oh, have you? Another? Yes, and hopefully I'll be able to go on another course

and maybe Suella will be there if I'm lucky. And I just thought, well, I'll send them a card. So I wrote inside, from a delighted car owner, Happy Christmas. It's going off to cameras, met prosecutions over the weekend. Well, I'm sorry to hear of your trouble. And will I visit you in prison? Well, I tell you what, Jane, the good news is

that if I went through that red light and got done then 17 cars behind me also got done and the metropolitan police will be in they'll be in the black for years it is that's an interesting point because you do sometimes wonder how many people are caught at the same time i'm not joking i was only just you know i had committed to the move yeah and so i thought all right i've got to just keep going. And it can be, in fairness to you we've all been there you can't at that point then stop suddenly because you've got

a whole load of people behind you But I'm not exaggerating, about six or seven cars went through after me It was on one of those temporary lights Oh, I don't think they count They do, Jane, as I've found out Yes, you do Oh, I think it's only half price if you go through one of those I don't think they count. They do, Jane, as I've found out. Yes, you've just found out. They really much do.

Oh, I think it's only half price if you go through one of those. I don't think it is. I don't think it is. And obviously, I'm very sorry. I'm a very, very law-abiding citizen. And actually, it does make my kids laugh because we see some just terrible driving around London. And that's not me in the Skoda.

And yet I'm, you know, almost at the end of my licence. You've been unfairly picked on. If you were a Scouser, I'd say it was because you were the Scouser. Well, you know, just no one and that's why they're picking on you. I think it is. OK. OK. Now, we've both been watching Vigil

and actually I've got the list here of top TV shows of the year. Succession, never seen it. Happy Valley, brilliant. Blue Lights, brilliant. The Bear, no. The Sixth Commandment? No. I saw that.

That was good. I can't be bothered doing any more. But they're the top ones. And I would say that Happy Valley and Blue Lights really do stand out. I would agree. Yeah. Vigil is a very strange one. If you're not in the UK,

you may not be familiar with the work of Sir Anne Jones, who is the leading actress in almost every policey, thrillery type thing the BBC makes. Is that fair? I mean, I like her. Anything procedural and twisty. Yes, that's right. And she isn't a lesbian, but she always plays lesbians.

No, in Dr dr foster she was oh i didn't see that she was a confirmed heterosexual oh was she confirmed she was was dr foster a fruity show because i don't know why i didn't watch that oh you'd really like it okay yeah it was very good actually she a doctor she was and you she you didn't she yep she was she was also a foster you didn't know at the beginning whether she was and you she you didn't she did yep she was and she was also a foster you didn't know at the beginning whether she was good or bad it was very good yep you'd like that enormously she's got beautiful eyebrows but you think her hair was a little lank in this series her hair is lank in this new second series of a show called Vigil. She's out in the Middle East.

She's in a lot of dicey situations and probably shampoo and conditioner are not uppermost in your mind when you're going through that. But there are some weird aspects to Vigil's plot, aren't there? The first series was set solely on a submarine and I got bored stiff, I've got to be honest. This second one is two lady detectives... ..but they're together i'm not joining in with you

and one of them is pregnant yes and she's at home and but she's on the same case as her partner well they are which is a bit odd i'm not sure that would happen health and safety alerts all over the place she She's quite heavily pregnant. She's jumping out the windows, shinnening up buildings. Yep. I don't think that's in the police handbook. I could be completely wrong, but I don't think that would happen. No.

And her partner is out in a sort of unspecified, well, it's a fictional Middle East location, isn't it? And she's certainly up against it. Anyway, I'm enjoying it hugely, whilst also tittering along at all the things you can find fault with. It gets really complicated towards the end. Oh dear, does it? Yeah.

And I was thinking, this is such a good test. I mean, in all seriousness, if you're ever worried about a loved one, you know, slipping into, you know, the early stages of senility or whatever, just make them watch a complicated crime drama and explain it to you. There were moments last night where I had to just pause it and just kind of think, OK, well, that one's over there. Because it's all of that counterintelligence,

which is a strange term, Jane. What's the counter? Where's the counter in counterintelligence? It's just intelligence. Who's countering it? I think that's a very valid point. I've always been puzzled by the term organised crime. I prefer disorganised crime.

Disorganised crime is the best kind of crime. It's just a bunch of dizzy buggers who just can't get anything sorted out. You don't hear a lot from them, though, do you? You don't, no. Disorganised criminals presumably never get round to actually committing any crimes. Or maybe they do. Well, I think they're the ones who get caught. But maybe you only have... I don't know, anyway.

Somebody in counterintelligence will be able to tell us about that. There are quite a few people who want to still comment on teletropes and this one comes in from Caroline who says, what's with detectives raiding a house with SWAT teams in full gear, including helmets, but the leading actors have none of this

and are at the front? Better still, also pregnant, like in vigil. Well, it's a very good point, Caroline. And also, you know the white suits that they put on at crime scenes? So all of the forensics have them, but then the police officers just walk in in normal clothes. They'll be contaminating the scene, do you? Oh, that's true.

No, you very, very occasionally see... Vera wears one. No, she doesn't put on a whole white suit. Oh, no, she doesn't. No, she just gets Kenny or somebody to put her blue galoshes on. Oh, and then she just... And then she tramples in with DNA everywhere. There would be

a couple of quickies uh thank you to uh anita for her lovely photograph of her cat posing very pompously in front of the christmas tree um happy christmas dusty not impressed but i've convinced her to pose to get a nice christmas card to my favorite podcast presenters uh well anita that's a lovely thought and thank you very much and cats do like nothing more than a pompous pose in front of a tree. My daughter is spending a great deal of time hiding behind the tree at the moment. And then when she thinks I don't notice, she starts trying to lob the decorations off the lower branches. And sleeper trains. Is that your stomach? No, it was weirdly my throat. It was horrible. Lisa says, I thought I'd write after hearing you talk about European sleeper trains. Services have increased in recent years as people choose rail.

Don't discount nursing. I haven't ruled it out. Services have increased in recent years as people choose rail as a more environmentally friendly method of travel. I'm slightly obsessed and I love speeding through towns, cities and indeed entire countries I will never set foot in. The romanticism of sleeping badly on a bunk and then waking in a different country is wonderful. My obsession extends to eagerly following a Twitter account called at diningcaratrail.chat, where people post photos of meals they have eaten in the dining cars of mainly European trains. Lisa does want us to know that she also has what she describes as normal interests.

Don't worry, Lisa. I'm so mad. I'm going home tonight with almost, I don't know, how much do you think that bag of bagels weighs, the one I bought today? Your bag of bagels weighs... About a stone, I would have thought. If you'd had that as a baby, you'd be very, very proud and in pain for months. That is a huge bag of bagels. No, it's a big bag.

But it's just because we've got an air con problem at my local supermarket. They don't have bagels at the moment because there's no air con in the bakery. I inquired as to when it would be functioning again today. Like I say, Miriam margins along in a moment. I wasired as to when it would be functioning again today. Like I say, Mary and Margaret are along in a moment. I was told that a bloke came to mend it yesterday but left in a huff because he said it's a two-man job and there's only me.

Welcome to Britain in 2023. So I've had to go to the Brick Lane bagel place to get basically a month's worth. They're ultimate bagels though, aren't they? I'm so excited for tomorrow morning. Lorraine is in Lowestoft and sent us the most fantastic email. And I think you do say that we might not be able to broadcast all of it.

And you're completely right. You definitely know your journalist's law. Because the starring question, it's not Sting, everybody. But Lorraine has moved us on to some quite wonderful anecdotes about a well-known comedian, a really well-known comedian actually, whose behaviour was just appalling and horrible and horrendous. And I won't mention his name,

but we'll just say he was doing a summer season in another nearby theatre, and one Friday afternoon he stumbled in, apparently extremely inebriated, asking where one of the dancers from the show at our theatre was he was so drunk he could barely stand and one of his mates helped him out of the door and we were amused to read in the local paper the following week that he'd cancelled that night's show because he wasn't happy with the stage lighting one of the great showbiz euphemisms

but anyway that's really horrible uh all of the stuff that heiz euphemisms. But anyway, that's really horrible. All of the stuff that he did and that you witnessed as a younger woman, Lorraine, is just awful. There is a very nice last paragraph, though, where Lorraine says, I did a few summers in the theatre bar and had a fantastic time meeting Saturday night TV legends such as Little and Large, nice but didn't seem to talk to each other. Jimmy Cricket.

What? Who does that remind you of? Actually, because we're both little, that doesn't work. Jimmy Cricket, very sweet. Freddie Star, shy and twitchy. Manager was an arse. And nicest of all, the Baron Knights. Oh, the Baron Knights, who I think we are delving into our Quality Street Cumberley chocolate box of memory.

They did spoof comedy songs, didn't they? Okay, so if there was a hit song, they'd do a funny-ish version of it. You probably can't play them now. Not my thing, but they were so friendly. Not at all lecherous towards us young barmaids.

Not a given in the 1990s, and they bought us all a carton of cigarettes as a thank you at the end of the season. Lorraine says different times. Well, different times, but let's hear it for the baronites who weren't miserable old leeches. And actually, that is worth celebrating. Oh, it is. And this comedian, I mean, the awful thing is, Jane,

when I read through this email, I just thought, I kind of know that about him, actually. And it goes back to, you know, what we've talked about earlier, about people being brave enough, other men, actually, on the comedic circuit being brave enough to call out the terrible behaviour of men who are being celebrated and who are being difficult and nasty to the women who are working for them or just working in the bar. Yeah.

You know, this guy, you and I know that his reputation is terrible. And that's from the 1970s, 80s. It's also worth saying that he wasn't remotely funny. No, he was very unfunny, but made loads of money. We are talking to Julia Samuel, aren't we, about Christmas. Julia, is she a psychotherapist? she is a qualified psychotherapist she's qualified, she's not just a keen amateur she's not a disorganised psychotherapist

she is an organised psychotherapist all the letters after her name and this is going to be a sort of Christmas dilemma conversation that we're going to have with Julia and we would love your involvement you can be absolutely anonymous if you are dreading Christmas or you just have a query about get-togethers um whether you're concerned about how you make things go well for everybody and i i mean i or whether you're just

perhaps you've had a miserable year bereavement or something absolutely dire has happened to you or you're just not feeling well there might be a multitude of things going on in your life or in the lives of people you care about which just makes you a little bit wary of Christmas and they can be they can be immensely stressful those those holiday days can't they there's no doubt about it hugely and although I think quite of us quite a lot of us approach Christmas with a we'll get through it we'll get through it you know we'll all get out the other side I think sometimes a really bad Christmas, it leaves its mark for a very, very long time. And so every time you go into the we'll get through it,

we'll get through it, there's unresolved stuff going on there, which it would be helpful to ask the wisdom and expertise of a really canny person about. So as Jane says, you can anonymise yourself if you'd like to and we'll put those questions to her. Yes, so anything you want to say about Christmas or just actually a memory of yours, good or bad, about Christmas and how you've reflected on it since.

Jane and Fi at Times.Radio. There was a woman actually sitting opposite me on the tube today who was, I felt for her, in fact, she was me essentially. She was writing her cards on the tube today who was I felt for her in fact I she was me essentially she was writing her cards on the tube but obviously there were sudden stops and went over you know sometimes sometimes it's a little rickety on the old tube line and the pen was shooting out of her hand and the cards fell on the floor at one point and I just thought madam do it do it when you get somewhere don't try and do it on the train but honestly honestly, women, and I am going to say this, it's largely women have just got a lot to do at the moment.

A lot. So ask a man to help you out. Yes, if you can find one. This one is Andrew, who says, Dear ladies, I am the 81-year-old male whose email you broadcast recently. I love the fact that he doesn't feel the need to expand on that. Just think, well, there are so few of these.

We know who you are. This time, not regarding the Latin for parts of the anatomy, but your Do You Know Who I Am thread. Years ago in the Much Loved Goon show. Did you like the Goon show? Is that one of the ones you hated? I did like it. Did you like that? I don't like any of those things.

But look, Andrew brings it to our attention. The following exchange. Do you know who I am? Why have you forgotten? Andrew goes on to say, I do hope you enjoyed your Christmas party. It must be akin to those lunches held at the Algonquin with the wonderful Dorothy Parker, Robert Benchley and their coterie. Your waspish sense of humour would have fitted well with them, which is why I enjoy listening to you. Well that's actually a huge compliment and Andrew says trust neither of you got

to the stage that prompted Dorothy Parker to say if I have another drink I'll be under the host. Well we were the host. And nothing untoward happened. But Andrew thank you for remembering all of our pets names and we wish you a very happy Christmas too. Yeah happy

Christmas. And this is very, well, it's actually lovely. It's from Ali who says, I'm writing to you from my sheep farm in Gisborne, New Zealand, where we're in the middle of the usual hectic and hot it's 30 degrees today, run up to Christmas. I listen to your podcast in the

morning and it's become such a staple of my day to hear you both nattering away. Your email correspondent on today's podcast, who spoke of her WhatsApp connection with her younger brother, really resonated with me, as I have a dear friend and a former neighbour who's recently moved back to her native Oxfordshire after being in New Zealand for a decade. I really miss her dearly, but we've developed a habit of sending each other fairly long-winded voice notes a couple of times a week. we've developed a habit of sending each other fairly long-winded voice notes a couple of times a week. Me on my farm track, complete with sheep and cow background noises, and she on her English village walks with her cocker spaniel. Due to the 12-hour time difference, I will often wake up in the morning to a deliciously chatty voice note, and there's nothing I like better. We both agree

that these sometimes rambling messages do a dual service and that they keep the recipient up to speed with the goings on of our respective lives and families. But they also act as a kind of diary entry for the sender. That's really interesting, isn't it? She left New Zealand 18 months ago. time i really feel like we're just as connected as we were when she used to while away the hours sitting at our each while we used to while away the hours sitting at each other's kitchen tables drinking tea and laughing until we cried happy christmas to you both ali um ali thank you for that and i'm glad that you you've kept up so brilliantly with your friends since she came to the uk but isn't it a voice i don't really answer voice notes are just what we used to call

messages aren't they or are they a longer form answer. Voice notes are just what we used to call messages, aren't they? Or are they a longer form? No, they're just what you used to call messages, but you don't have to go through a number and into an answering machine to get them. That's what's different about them. I don't think I've ever sent one. I'll send you one later. Fighting talk. But I suppose that is a really... Yeah, I like that. It's a great idea. I don't know...

Yeah, it obviously works for them. I don't know what your friends call it, Ali. Anyway, happy Christmas to you. Andy Oliver does a fantastic impersonation of the youth of today. Oh, I like this. No, it is funny. Because it's just all these kids

just holding up their phones in front of their faces and just shouting into them. Yesterday, my youngest child managed to devote almost the entire day to stretching a jumper that she had made small by washing it inadequately. And do you know about this? You bathe it in conditioner. I don't, but that's a top tip.

Yeah, if you've got a jumper that's gone small, you stick it in a washing tub. My language has just totally deserted me. What's it called? A bowl. Stick it in a washing up bowl with conditioner and leave it for hours on end. And then you'll find it much easier to stretch. It's a good use of her day. She was exhausted at the end of that.

Neither one with a degree. Not yet. Oh, okay. Still time. I just want to say hello to Lush, who is listening to us in Dubai. I'm glad it's worked out for you moving over there. I tell you what, we watched on,

I think it's on the Netflix, the first 10 minutes of a reality TV show called Dubai Bling. Oh, I haven't seen that. Give it a go, Jane. I would like to hear your thoughts TV show called Dubai Bling. Oh, I haven't seen that. Give it a go, Jane. I would like to hear your thoughts about it. Dubai Bling. We came away with the impression that if you ever, ever needed an argument for the abolition of fossil fuels,

the people involved in Dubai Bling are that argument inhuman for. It's not fair. They've got all the money. They don't deserve it. And they're not spending it very well. Jennifer didn't read the label when she had a bout of thrush.

Does she want her name mentioned? She doesn't mind. Really? Okay. I didn't read the package as I assumed every thrush treatment would be a pessary. Although I was surprised at the blue colour of the tablet, I inserted it and went about my daily business. Actually,

I'm going to have to just throw this out there because I don't know, is that likely to do you any harm? Well, after going to the toilet later on that day and finding a blue residue, I referred back to the tablet packet. Now the recycling bin, only to read it, had been an oral tablet. The threat did not clear

up and neither did my embarrassment. Thank you for the laughs. Well, thank you, Jennifer. Thank you very much. But if the worst she got out of that was Blue Wee, then it's not the end of the world, is it? No. And presumably it wouldn't matter which end a medical thing went in.

It would be okay, wouldn't it? I mean, if you swallow something, it's ending up a membrane away from where it would end up if you pessaried it. This is not a medical podcast, as you may have picked up. I'll give you Miriam's cue. Why is thrush called thrush? Oh, that's a really good question.

It seems a peculiar name for a... Well, it does, doesn't it? And that's a really good question um it seems a peculiar name for well it does doesn't it and it's that is a really good question because nobody goes to the std clinic and says i've got genital sparrows i bet somebody has right let's hear now uh from feed lover uh who will tell us all who our guest is right proper cue proper cue voice, cue voice. Here we go, here we go, here we go. Miriam Margulies is an actor, speaker, writer and provocateur. She's as packed full of provocation as she is of kindness and compassion and it's quite a heady mix.

She has the second volume of her memoir out at the moment called Oh Miriam, but we'd take any excuse to talk to her so we were happy to use that one. If you'd like to play Miriam Margulies' bingo at home with us, your card needs a raw onion, a radish, several swear words and a fart. These are all things that Miriam likes to delight an audience with. We talked to her at her home in Italy, and we joined her as she made her last-minute preparations for our interview.

Right, I'm ready. Go on. Just cleaning my ears with a toothpick. Go on. Can we start with some of the really serious stuff, Miriam? And we will do the full light and shade over the next 20 minutes. But I think it's really important because the serious stuff doesn't get any more serious than it is at the moment. And in your book, you do say that the living person you most despise is the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, for, in your words, fanning the flames of conflict between Israelis and Palestinians and removing the chance of peace. Obviously, your book came out before the horrific events of October the 7th and the

unfolding conflict since then. So we just wonder what your thoughts are at the moment. Truly, I'm in despair at the moment. I didn't know that people, ordinary people, could be so wicked, so heartless. I think it's the lack of heart that depresses me. I don't care, you know, what the politics are. I've left the politics behind. I'm just thinking about children dying and families being separated,

hostages and bits of children in the street, bits of children. I just can't cope with it. And I don't know anybody who can. I mean, all my friends really think the same as me. And the ones that don't have told me in no uncertain terms that they don't want to speak to me anymore. And I must, as they say, go well on my journey. But my journey is heart-rending and my comments are irrelevant. I just feel utter distress.

Why have some people, some of your friends, stopped talking to you and wished you well on your way? What might you have said that offends them? The actual trigger for that was that I signed a letter, an email from a group called Artists for Palestine, asking for a ceasefire. And apparently that so shocked and wounded really one of my closest friends in Israel, that he felt that it was not possible to continue our friendship of about 30 years. And that shook me because I thought that everybody would want to cease fire, whatever, as it were, side you're on. or side you're on. And then the growing anti-Semitism, which I completely understand,

although I equally deplore, is sprouting all over the place. So things are getting worse, not better. And whatever I say, I just want it to get better. I just want people to see the humanity. Where is there humanity? You know, Jewish people are supposed to have that thing called compassion, rachmonis. It's part of our culture. But Miriam, as we find out more and more about what happened on October the 7th, I think those of us who do feel as despairing as you begin to understand the, well, it was more than a blow to the Israeli psyche. This was a savage, savage attack on people living peacefully in their settlements. Now, I mean, you can argue about whether they

should have been there. That's, in a way, a separate argument. But what really happened on that day, most of us have just chosen not to read all the details. I think it's just too horrific. I utterly condemn Hamas, because if they wanted to make things better for their people, they have not. So there's no question in my mind about that. But what followed at the instigation of Netanyahu, whom you started speaking about at the beginning of your question, that is what disturbs me because I have no influence anywhere really, but I certainly have no influence over Hamas. But possibly I could speak to my own lot and say, you know, this is not a good technique. This is not a good strategy. Don't don't bomb innocent children because you will lose. If for no other reason, you'll lose public opinion. And of course they have.

And would you be concerned that this will act as a recruiting agent for Hamas? Of course. I am very concerned and I understand it because what I know of Gaza, and I have been a few years ago, I do. I think it was 2012 I was in Gaza. But the Hamas organization was like a sort of mafia. Hamas organization was like a sort of mafia. You know, they provided hospitals. They provided a kind of social security. They were the government, if you like. They were the people to whom people went for help.

So it was understandable that they were elected. It's a huge shock and blow that they were. And, you know, I think the Palestinians have been very badly served by their leaders from the beginning. It is a tragedy. I am deeply troubled that this latest horror is going to make things worse, ever worse. It's not going to get better. Final question on this topic, Miriam, and we appreciate you answering so fully all of our questions. But aside from your friend who you have now not fallen out with forever, I hope, but had a pause on friendship. Have you felt that people have treated you at all differently since October the 7th and its fallout? No, I haven't. Because the people who agree with me are ever more praising of my bravery and speaking out. And the people who dislike and find me vile

and a betrayer of my people have had their attitudes confirmed. So there has been no change apart from losing that particular friend, I must say, was the one that grieved me most. But it's not going to get better and I'm not going to change. And maybe if I don't change, nobody's going to change. So how can I ask for change in others when I don't do it myself? It's a bitterly miserable situation. Yeah. Do you have a view on those people who say, what's it got to do with a load of old lovies anyway? I wish they'd just shut up. Oh, no, I don't agree with that at all. I think everybody should express any opinion that they have. And if they have a wrong opinion, I shall tell them so. But I think that nobody can be muzzled because of their occupation. And I'm totally in favour of Gary Lineker, who's an absolute heartthrob of mine, speaking out do, then he would be free to speak out. But he's chosen to take the BBC's money. And I think a lot of people find that something that sticks in their throat, shall we say. Because he takes the BBC's money doesn't mean that he has to agree with everything

the BBC agrees. No, he's just not supposed to say anything. That's the whole point of being paid by the BBC. You keep your thoughts to yourself. Well, I've worked for the BBC all my life, from the very beginning of my career, and I have never shut up. So if the BBC chooses not to employ me anymore, well, I'll be deeply sad, but I think they're wrong. I don't agree with you that we have to shut up about her. If you speak when you're doing your job for the BBC, then you shouldn't. But if you are a person at home being interviewed, then you should say what you think.

I think it's monstrous to expect people to shut up. You know, I've noticed, funnily enough, in a lot of contracts that I'm offered recently from film companies, nothing to do with the BBC, that they want you not to talk about your salary. How dare they try to muzzle their employees? I find that really scary. And it hinders all of us. I think one of the things that we love about you, Miriam, is that we can ask you a straight question and we're going to get a straight answer. How much did you get paid for your latest book, Oh Miriam, Stories from an Extraordinary Life?

You know how much. I got quarter of a million. Brilliant. Excellent. I'm not saying that I deserved it. Absolutely not. But that's what they thought I was worth. And I may tell you that I just won a, well, I don't know if it's a prize, but I've just been awarded a gold award by Nielsen's because I've sold half a million copies in a year. That's incredibly good.

You're damn right it is. It's bloody brilliant. Now, don't you, you do hide your light under a bushel miriam that's always been your problem voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone.

Miriam Margulies is our guest on the podcast today. Now, in one of the chapters of her latest book, she takes Proust to task over his very boring questions because when Proust was 14, he discovered the Confession album, which is something between a rigorous psychological exercise and a kind of party game. It was a series of questions that you could use in any situation to get to know somebody. This was when he was 14? Yes, yeah.

I mean, he was a bit ahead of himself, wasn't he? God. Yeah. I tell you what, I think his teacher just should have said, try again with brevity. Yeah. I think that would have helped. Not snappy enough, love.

It's not very snappy. Marcel, do better. Yeah. But the questions are things like, what's your idea of perfect happiness? What's your greatest fear? And Miriam, when she read about these, thought that they were just really, really boring.

So she compiled her own list of 25 questions designed to get any party situation going, and we decided to put some of them to her. The idea for that was given to me by my editor, Georgina, Georgina Laycock, who is an employee of Hachette at John Murray. She gave me the idea for that because I don't read Proust. You know, I mean, it's too long. But she had read this and she suggested it.

And I thought it was a damn good suggestion. And I thought up the questions. Yes. So there are 25 questions here and they are absolutely superb. I'm going to chuck a couple at you if that's OK. How long do you want to live is question number two in Miriam's questionnaire. As long as I'm not doubly incontinent. I think that's a great answer, to be honest. Yeah. It's true.

Yeah. It's true. it's true yeah yeah is that i mean are you um increasingly aware of your well you're not frail but i mean all of us as we age we change don't we well yes it's harder for me to retain my piss so it's not unusual for me to piss myself so i'm just drinking water which you have to do when you piss yourself um and uh i'm not going to do it during this program don't worry or this i can't get used to calling the podcast well it's a program yes it's both actually confusingly but anyway yeah yeah so that's one i mean i think continence is one of the most underrated i mean it's it's just as soon as i quality, it's not a quality, is it? But

if you're fortunate enough to be continent, it's rather wonderful. You, it makes a great deal of difference to life. If you can't, if you can't be sure that you're not going to, you know, piss yourself off yourself. Well, I don't do I, I don't myself. That's something that isn't happening. So thank goodness for that. The minute that starts, I think I want to peg out, frankly. That's a fantastic answer. Question number 10. I think this will appeal to Jane as well, Miriam. Is space travel a waste of space? Yes. Do you want between large on that? Just briefly.

Before we start polluting and upsetting other areas, let's put our own in order. Let's preserve our lives here rather than make a mess in other planets. I'm utterly against it

and I think it's a shocking waste of time and space, indeed, and ego. It's all about these millionaires swinging their big all over the bloody world. Yes, hear, hear, I think we would both say. Question number 17 is fascinating. Are you born in the wrong century? Now, you are a huge admirer of Dickens and you've done your one woman shows all over the world celebrating life in a completely different century. But does that mean that you want to live in a different century? Would you have fared better if you had? Oh, I wouldn't have fared better. No, I think I'm probably best off staying where I am in this century. But I would have loved to have been able to go to his readings. I think Dickens is what, and not just Dickens, but Queen Victoria and other great Victorians, the engineers, the designers. One of my favourite places, by the way, in London is the sewage works in Beckton.

It's Crossnecks, it's called. It's absolutely gorgeous. Never thought I'd say that about a sewage works. What is there to see there? It's a Victorian sewage works. It's a beautiful building with gorgeous tiles, marvellous constructions, engineering constructions. The pump that goes right through the building is polished brass and it's gorgeous. And it's run by people who absolutely love it. Engineers who are in love with the sewage works.

And I urge everybody to go there. It's just fabulous. Another one of these questions. And so bear in mind, dear listener, that these are the kind of things that you should be asking people at parties or when you strike up a conversation to make it slightly more interesting than usual. And every single one of these is a winner. In at number 11, who should define madness?

That's a great question, Miriam. What's your answer? Well, my answer, well my answer uh well i think probably experts should define the word that nobody likes these days but i think psychiatrists psychologists doctors um and historians perhaps. Madness is thrown around. It's an epithet. You're mad, people say. And it can have a terrible effect. And it's a very real thing. I think there are times when people's reason leaves them. But we need not to always identify people by that. I don't know the answer, really, as to who should identify it. But I suspect, I believe that it should be experts,

people who make it their life's work to answer such a question. But do you think we should be more forgiving of people who step outside of the quite narrow confines of sanity? You know, we feel comfortable, don't we, with a very firm definition of sanity, but one person's madness is another person's genius sometimes. Very true. I would forgive everyone except Tories. Miriam, have you ever read and really rated another of your showbiz colleagues' memoirs? Oh, of course. Yes. I love showbiz memoirs. I mean, my top favourite at the moment, of course, is Dame Eileen Atkins, Will She Do? It's a thrilling read about a working class childhood in London. this formidable Shakespearean and Broadway actress of wit and cunning and complete simplicity. But at the same time, she writes so well about her early life, as many do.

Sian Phillips, who's another friend of mine, her books are beautifully written. another friend of mine, her books are beautifully written. I love trying to get into how people became who they are. That for me is fascinating. That's why I love those memoirs. Have you read Alan Rickman? Yes, Alan Rickman. Oh God, I miss him so. Have you read his diaries, in which I am not particularly, pleasurably, remarkable? Yes, well, I was going to ask, I wonder how often you feature in other people's memoirs. I mean, because you're quite, let's face it, you stand out, so you're unlikely to be forgotten by any of your showbiz pals. Darling, it's my tits that stand out and not much else. Well, I suppose I have been remembered in some.

I don't know all of them. I'm very proud of being in 30 Mount's memoirs. He's an ex-Spectator editor and he was one of my mother's tenants. And he remembers me when I used to go around with my mother collecting the rents. And actually, when people were leaving, I used to be the cleaner. So I used to come with mop and duster and bucket to swab out after people like Terry Gally, who was another tenant, left owing 100 quid. Did he? Oh, dear. Fee and I have both interviewed you on stage,

and I wonder, just as a finale, could you possibly delight us with your impersonation of the very posh lady who picked you up from the station when you went to stay with the now king at his country home? Oh, it seems harsh to do that. But the lady who was sent to pick me up to pick me up was from the station was charming but unintelligible and unintelligible in a different way from Isaiah Berlin who was also unintelligible but that was because he was foreign but this lady was English and she was so very joy and jollity. Yeah, but as you say, largely incomprehensible. But I know you don't mean it nastily.

That's done with affection. Well, Miriam, happy Christmas. Is this it? Is this all there is? This is all there is, Miriam, because we are confined within a kind of podcast box of timings. But it's been really lovely to talk to you. And thank you for answering all our questions.

What is next for you? We're talking to you. You're in one of your beautiful homes i think in italy uh tuscany tuscany tuscany uh what happens next year what's on the miriam margulies slate i'm flying to new zealand to do a film with judy davis and joanna scanlon two really great actresses. Yeah, fantastic. And I'm going to play a nun all over again. Oh, you're back under the, what is it?

Back in the bad habit. Back in the habit. Thank you. You're sharper than I am, that's for sure. Now, is this a steamy romance set in a nunnery or is it more dramatic stuff? No, it's a gentle feature film about an order of nuns fighting to retain their convent from being taken over by developers.

And it's about location and it's about the company I'll be with because being with people like that makes you grow better as an actress and that's what, after all, I want to do. Well, that sounds like a fantastic film, not to be missed, but presumably we'll have to wait about a year or so to see it. But thank you very much indeed for joining us, Miriam. Very, very happy holidays to you. And stay well, stay continent. And all the very best from us here at News UK HQ. Miriam Margulies, the latest part of her memoir is called Oh Miriam, it's out now. And how much did she get paid?

£250,000. So do you think she'll be able to squeeze out a third volume? I think she can because you've read her first one as well and you've interviewed her on stage about it. It was a very fruity edition that she wrote it during the lockdown and she seemed to be able to recall quite a lot of sexual escapades that really shocked people. Oh Miriam, I think, is calmer, wiser, more thoughtful and just as entertaining. And I'm sure that there's a third one.

I think she's one of those people, Jane, that you just... She is self-aware enough to be able to tell you some quite decent things about the world, if that makes sense. She's a massive... Do you think she sometimes says things, let's just be honest, for effect? Totally, totally. But within that that there's something kind of wiser

and less egotistical. So she absolutely says I'm over here and off we go. But along the way she's saying some quite important stuff. But where would we be without her? I also think when she talked about continence and its importance

she's absolutely right um there'll be so many people listening to that who think oh you shouldn't really talk about that and then also simultaneously think yeah but i'm with her a hundred percent so it was exactly the point made by uh dame diana rigg and uh her daughter has released some conversations that she recorded with her i mean it's a couple of years since she died, isn't it? It is, yeah. And one of her points is her dignity went with her continence and she just changed her mind about wanting to be here.

So I think it's definitely something that we should talk more openly about. Well, Miriam's certainly started the conversation and she'll probably return to it. But I think she is... A force of nature is one of those slightly overused terms, but I think you can apply it to Miriam. And I wish her the very best of luck with her film in New Zealand. It is funny, dear listener, the first thing that Jane says,

oh, the flight, how did she manage the flight? I just can't think of anything worse. She'll be right at the front of the plane, Jane, and they'll take very, very good care of her. Well, they better. She'll certainly be wearing, what are they called, those socks? Those support stockings. Anyway, I've got to go and just spend the night

burying my head in my bag of bagels. You certainly have. I wish everybody a very good evening and the festive season staggers towards us and we will... We will... Stagger with it. Embrace it.

Yeah. Your thoughts always welcome, jaydenfee at times.radio. And we should say, if you're slightly concerned that you won't be getting episodes of Off Air during the festive season... Oh, don't be. Do not. This is the podcast that keeps on giving. Whether you like it or not, there will be some guff available on this feed. Right, on that positive note, good evening.

Good night. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house

or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm sorry.

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