Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A whole degree in umbilical scrutiny

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

Jane and Fi talk about their favourite presents this Christmas, campaign for cat's eyes on the roads in the US, and discuss the ins and outs of blind baking. They're joined by bestselling author Gill Hornby to discuss her new book 'Godmersham Park'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So, what was your best present?

Oh, gosh, that's a good question. Now, let me think just how many people I could offend for this answer. All of them were great gifts. Oh, yes. But you must have a particular fondness for that face cream I bought you. The face cream you bought me? People have stopped me in the streets, say how well I'm looking, as the rose damask spreads across my cheeks. I don't know what it is, but it's got the word damask in it.

It was good enough for me. Yeah, and it's got one of those modern, newfangled, kind of scientific pseudo-pharmacy words in it too. And I gave that to you because you missed out when we were looking at, remember we were allowed to take something from the Sunday Times style beauty advent calendar. And I got straight in and got the anti-wrinkle cream. You did, didn't you?

And I felt a bit guilty. So that's why I bought you that. Not that you need it. Well, it's always a difficult one, isn't it? When somebody, somebody who once was close to me used to bring me back quite a lot of anti-aging products, which is always, you know, giveth on the one hand. I think my most recent gift from my former mother-in-law

at Christmas was anti-wrinkle cream. Yeah. So, which I think I most recent gift from my former mother-in-law at Christmas was anti-wrinkle cream. Yeah. So, which I think I'm probably still ploughing my way through because it's not worked, but I'm still trying. Anyway. I had a friend who decided to give his wife on their anniversary a power plate, you know, toning machine. Oh, no, that's, no. No. It's a little bit like the ironing board cover gift that no woman ever wants.

It didn't go down very well at all. Actually, well, thank you for asking. My best gift. Oh, I'm so sorry. I was actually still thinking. It's normally me. Because I hadn't even managed to answer the question. But you're absolutely right, Jane.

My best gift was the one you gave me. Is that right, Kate? Yes, I say that. No, I'm only kidding. My best gift was a cat-shaped draft excluder. No, I'm only kidding. My best gift was a cat-shaped draft excluder. So it's a long sausage dog cat,

which my real cat has taken exception to. It just looks completely disparagingly at this draft excluder, which I'm lying across the front door, which unfortunately it hasn't really come into its own because it hasn't actually been that cold since I took possession of the draft excluder, but I'm really glad to have it. it's a very sensible gift for the winter of discontent but are you saying that my gift to you was not your favourite gift well um it absolutely was and I'm just trying to remember this stupid woman so it was the hat hat and glove set it was

a hat and glove set not matching it wasn matching, but you don't like matching. We've had this conversation in a previous life. Oh yeah, the bra and knickers thing. I think that's really weird. Anyway, that was something we discovered about each other some time ago which we don't need to delve into today, but broadly speaking, you had quite a good and interesting, and in your case

travel-strewn Christmas break. Yeah, we had a really adventurous Christmas break because we were in america and we were trying to outrun the storm yeah you know and i was actually and then some all horribleness cast aside a little concerned at one point well that's very kind no it's nice of you to text it was very nice i think i said something like are you alive i was thinking about my career as much as anything exactly and then the next text hello Claire Balding

I've got a slot available for you oh deary me but we did have quite a funny text exchange in fact it was our journey back so we'd been up in the boonies above New York and we were driving back to JFK airport

and I got a text from you, Jane, that detailed the fact that you were stuck on a rail replacement bus somewhere at some Milton Key. Yeah, you see, this is, so I travel, and people listening, some of them will be able to relate to this. If anyone else listening tried to go anywhere in the United Kingdom on December the 27th, they will know why I had such a tough time. And by the way, it was fine for me. I was travelling on my own. I'm able bodied. I didn't have a toddler with me and I was listening to an audio book.

You know, how bad could it be realistically? But it was quite a cold day. It was freezing rain and it took me. Well, I left my mum and dad's in Liverpool at 930 in the morning. Got back to East West Kensington, West London at 10 to 8 at 9.30 in the morning, got back to East West Kensington, West London, at 10 to 8 at night. Now you can do that journey normally in about four hours, you know, if you go to Lyme Street, get to Euston, it's not that difficult a journey normally. It was incredibly bad and it was partly because they have engineering work after Christmas always, that's just a given. I never understand why because it must be a popular time to travel bear in mind as well we're trying to be discouraged from using cars which I totally approve of so I guess they do have to sort out the rail network I get it um and also there were strikes on the 28th

and 29th so if you needed to go anywhere and all the National Express's coaches they were booked up so it was very hard to get on a coach you had had to go on the 27th of December. So I went on a train to Lyme Street and then I got a train to New Street in Birmingham. And then I got a train from Birmingham to Northampton because the train I was due to get to Reading, I just couldn't get on. There was actually something nearly approaching quite a dangerous crush on the platform. And I really felt sorry for some elderly people who were. I mean, there is I know this is increasingly sounding like some crusty old colonel, but there isn't the respect there used to be for older people. I'm quite convinced of it. You know, young, fit people were just thrusting their way onto this train. And it was really hard on the

more vulnerable. I just couldn't believe that people were being so selfish train and it was really hard on on the more vulnerable I just couldn't believe that people were being so selfish but it was like the last train out of Dodge or something you know people just were desperate to get on this train it was horrendous so that meant I had to go to Northampton instead at Northampton we had to queue for 45 minutes in the rain to get a rail replacement bus to Milton Keynes so I was edging closer to London with every stop bus to Milton Keynes. So I was edging closer to London with every stop. And at Milton Keynes, there were many, many trains available going to Euston, all of which called at every nodding bump between Milton Keynes and Euston. So I saw Tring in the dark.

Well, I mean, there's always something to live for. So, well, I'm really sorry about that, Jane. I'm very sorry. And I'm glad yours was much less difficult well it was but actually when we were driving uh ahead of the storm uh that a bit of it did catch us when we were when we were going up from jfk and a one and a half hour journey turned into three hours 45 of nightmarish driving i wasn't driving i'm really hopeless at driving on the other side of the road, so I couldn't bother. I definitely couldn't.

But we did get there, obviously, safe in one piece, but it is just really frightening. You just don't... What about the visibility? You can't see a thing. Absolutely nothing. And also, America doesn't have cat's eyes on its motorways. Why not? I don't know, Jane,

but I really wish they would consider it. Actually, they just have they have a really bad, bad safety record on their roads. And there are some pretty essential things that I was very grateful to come back to the UK, one of which was cat's eyes on the roads. I don't know how you managed to do it. There's so much merging of the traffic. If you can't delineate the different lanes. It's just horrendous. So, yes, we were very, very, very glad to get back safe in one piece.

And I may never go travelling again. But you probably said that after your journey just from Liverpool to East West Kensington. I mean, I really am moaning, but I'm moaning actually on behalf of those people I really saw struggling that day because a lot of people had bags as well because they'd been staying with people or they had bags of Christmas presents and it just all felt a little bit rubbish and it actually felt like Britain is going to the dogs, that sort of a day. But I tell you what, I mean, there's always a transport conversation, isn't there, when anybody arrives at Christmas and this year they must have been absolute belters. Well, it was great this year

because my daughter drove to Liverpool which was a first and it meant that she and my dad could have the conversation about the toll road yeah I mean it was fabulous but you've got this kind of you know you've got an air of emergency and extra difficulty this year

and a kind of politicised transport conversation as well so there must have been some humdingers in foyer areas and hallways around the country. I suppose that's probably true because families have now given up on talking about Brexit, which always used to be the elephant in the chambre, didn't it? Yes, yep. And we've probably said all we need to say

about the Royal Family this year. So transport it is. Well, this year we've only just got started with the Royal Family. Oh, well, last year. You know what it is. I'm not going there with that book. She won't go, Harry. No. Nope. Nope. Nope.

Do you want to borrow my copy of it? Nope. Have you got one? Have you? Didn't say that. Oh, that's awoken your interest, hasn't it? Oh, no, don't worry. I'm going to be way too busy watching Happy Valley. Shall we talk about our guest today? And it was lovely

to see Jill Hornby in the studio. What a cracking start to the year for us. I just want to say to any guest who's booked, we would like you to come in. Yeah, it makes a huge difference, actually. Tomorrow it's Romesh Ranganathan. But we've already done him, haven't we? Yeah, he didn't come in. No.

OK, talk about Jill Hornby. Talk about Jill Hornby. Yes, yes, miss. Jill Hornby is a best-selling author. Her genius lies in the telling of stories in domestic settings, from the local school playground to the world of the Jane Austen drawing room. And that's what her latest novel is about. The novel's called Godmersham Park, and it tells the story of Anne Sharp, who I'd never heard of before. I defy anyone but the most ardent Jane Austen fan to have ever heard of Anne Sharp before. But she became the governess to Fanny Austen, who was the niece of Jane Austen. Well done, miss. Much of the novel imagines the world that Anne found herself

in, and she was really cast adrift from what she thought was going to happen to her, which as a nice young lady would be to have a substantial dowry and to marry a chap yeah and then have probably an awful lot of children and hopefully not die in childbirth which lots of them did so many of them did but that didn't happen to anne and that's just one of the many stories that's kind of woven into this novel so we started with that, asking Jill why Anne had ended up being a governess. Well, for the same reason that most people became, women became governesses in those days, nobody chose it. It really wasn't vocational teaching for women then. I mean, if it was, you'd probably go into a school, start your own school, whatever. But to be a governess, you needed a very specific set of qualities.

You need to be very well-bred. You needed to be the sort of person that the family wanted to have in your drawing room and wanted your daughter to be emulating. She had to be nice enough looking that the children would want to be. You'd want her to adorn your house and so on, but not so pretty that the men of the family would be chasing after her because then she'd get instant dismissal. Fine for the men of the family, no good for the governors.

But again, and not so ugly that you frighten the children. They ran screaming away. They had to be very well educated, and they would have been educated because they had been well brought up in a certain sort of, you know, certain standard of household where she herself had been educated

by her mother or her governess, and she had been brought up to be a gentleman's wife. And then it had to, it will have have gone wrong and for so many women in those days it went wrong i keep reading the statistic and i never believe it but it does seem to be true that only about a third of women in georgian times did get married first time in their youth you know because there was a shortage of men because there was a war on because if you it wasn't enough to be incredibly attractive and stimulating company and things you had to be have more than threepence hate me on your head you know um that'd be one of

the reasons jane never married is she was worth an offense. And people might, men might have fallen in love with her beguiling brilliance, although that wasn't always the first attribute your Georgian man was after in a wife. But she was just worth nothing. It would make more sense to marry somewhere where there was somebody else.

So, so many women just fell through the net. You know, they had this predicted destiny and they missed it. And then there were very, very few options. There was being a governess, which was the better one, being a companion to an elderly lady, which was the super grim one. Well, there was going on the game. And the prostitute population of Regency London was immense, full of very well-bred women, full of eight-year-old girls,

you know, full of all sorts of people. It was a precarious business, being a woman, in the 19th century. There were cracks in the sort of social floorboards, which you could plunge through at any minute. So this is the crack that anne falls through they were let down by men generally by their fathers by their suitors or by their brothers whose you know their dads had left everything and said you will look after anne wouldn't you won't you for example and he wouldn't you know a sister-in-law and jane deals with that

in sense of sensibility a sister-in-law says you know of course they didn't want all these things because they haven't got a house you know so all of it and and so on um so yeah yeah she was let down by a man so that's what happened we meet anne in your novel when she's arriving not really understanding what has happened to her life so she arrives at godmersham park and she uh she knows that she's expected to deliver this very as you say kind of walking on eggshells role as a governess but she doesn't really understand what it is that has taken her to that place does she no i mean it's something else you weren't necessarily due was it was an explanation um it's quite hard to convey quite how powerless women were in those days that's the interesting thing and that's what i learned from this book actually so it's 1804 at the start of your book so it's the napoleonic wars that's that's the Napoleonic Wars. That's the war that England are fighting against France.

Women's suffrage is still what? Oh, my God, miles off. It was miles off, decades away before that got going. So what could women do? Almost nothing. Almost nothing. Almost nothing. Trust.

Trust to their families. Family was everything. And so if you were an only child, the children of only child, if you were an illegitimate daughter, which was a perfectly common condition, then you were very vulnerable. And the status of the governess in the house, the social status of the governess, is interesting.

She wasn't really part of the servants' hall. That was the tricky thing. Yeah, and not really one of the knobs either. You're on this kind of mezzanine level in the middle and nobody much likes you. The servants resented the governesses for their heirs and their graces you know and the servants were a gang you know in a house like godmarsham park the staff was the household was 19 servants in those days the family was 10 so there's two massive gangs on either side you know a huge gang in the dining room every night and a huge gang in the servants' hall eating dinner.

The governess wasn't necessarily welcoming either, certainly not the servants' hall. The servants would give them supper on a tray in the schoolroom. Sometimes the family would have them to eat with them, sometimes they wouldn't, you know, and would it be a good day or a bad day? You were constantly playing it by ear, feeling your way through, desperate not to cause offense um you had to get on really well with the children and the mother but not so well

with the children that the mother felt undermined you know yeah a very very complex role for somebody really young and someone who just hadn't had very much experience of life how much of what you can tell us about anne comes from the reality of her relationship with the austin family well everything really i mean we know nothing of her until the night in in january 1804 as you say that she turned up on the doorstep of the austens. But then I was so lucky, the sort of basic source of the novel is that that Christmas, just before the January Anne turned up, Fanny was about to turn 13. She was the oldest daughter and her mama gave her for Christmas a little pocketbook. And it was sort of, what, three inches by four inches or something sorry i don't do centimeters and it was um seven days to two pages and the beginning of it had the latest country

dances and and figurines of fashions you know that you'd cut out and put on a cardboard paper doll i remember doing it myself and stuff like that and then her mama said now you're going to be a young miss you need to keep a journal of everything that happens in your day who visits and so on and fanny being very very um diligent conscientious and fanny is anne's charge isn't she's charge she's jane austen's eldest niece um started to do that and she continued and to do it until she was too old to hold a pen and we have 69 of these volumes of of pocketbooks um in in the kent records office which i'm going through now for the for the next novel and her writing is pretty atrocious and she's writing with a quill pen and it's the ink is very very black and it goes through the the pages and and she's writing with a quill pen and the ink is very, very black

and it goes through the pages and she's scrolling and sometimes it's incredibly hard to tell one line from another but she gives us a perfect day-to-day record of everything that happened in Godmission Park, the two years that Jane was there, that Anne was there,

the weather, the visitors, what was going on when they had Le Mange Fatigue. Oh, my God, the food's huge news, obviously. What sort of things did they eat? Well, of course, Fanny ate very well. Anne, we're less sure of. But in the winter months and in... I mean, I wrote this book in lockdown

and it was incredibly instructive because you could only see your neighbours in lockdown, which was the same in Georgian England. If the weather came in, that was it. You were completely stuck inside. But also, I don't know about you lot, we talked about food all the time. All anybody said to me is what's for dinner. And I think Georgian England was exactly the same. It was also a heroic effort in maintaining friendship

in terms of geographical distance, apart from letter writing. The shit, I mean, if it was me, I wouldn't bother to go and see Fee if she was three counting. She doesn't bother now. That's nice, isn't it? It breaks your heart. It just really would have been too much. VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with

from 10 to 11 and get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So you're listening to Off Air with Jane and Fi, and we've been talking to bestselling author Jill Hornby. One of the characters in Jill Hornby's book is Agnes, who is the maid of Anne Sharp, the central character. So we asked whether Agnes was someone she'd just plain made up. Agnes is. I did get hold of Anne Sharp's will and she left quite a lot of money and possessions to her devoted lifelong maid, Agnes.

Now, whether that Agnes would have been around in her younger days or not, I don't know, but I sort of took it and ran with it. But what I think was very true was that, especially if you were an only child in a very small household, the maid became so important to you. I mean, they could make your life, of course, total misery, but also they could be your closest friend, confidant. You know, sometimes girls going off

to get married at the age of 17 18 the only way they know anything of what's going to happen that night is from the maid who was sort of and and getting their periods and all that sort of thing that it was the these things were the channels of intimacy and so I wanted to put that relationship in of of that that just really important support I don't think this is a spoiler for the novel which I really enjoy by the way I read it I just spent the whole of yesterday reading it and it was absolutely perfect for that kind of time of year lit some candles one of them was scented Jill I don't mind saying and I just live in the dream you know what you can take the girl out of the BBC

no it was really it was really lovely. And what was really nice, and I don't think this is a spoiler, is to discover at the end of the book, and you've written a little epilogue at the end, that Anne Sharp's life was far from a failure. It started pretty miserably. But actually, she did some phenomenal things, didn't she? She did. And it's true. And it's from those facts. Well, I mean, I was able to build Anne's character from various signals that are left. And one is that Jane Austen made a real effort to keep in touch with her from the minute she met. Yeah, we should probably explain how they met then.

Yes, so Jane came to stay with her brother. It also says Godmersham Park belonged to... Jane had one rich brother. And Godmersham Park was his house it's huge it's lovely it's in kent it's still there and jane would get her nose through the front door whenever she could because the food was great and your washing was done for you and there was a big library and so on and she got there in anne's second summer right there and they hit it off at once and not only that that when after Anne left Godmersham Park the following January they kept in touch for the rest of Jane's

life the last letter Jane wrote before her death was to Anne Sharp and she left her a few things. And so we know from that Jane Austen did not suffer fools. She had a slightly high tolerance rate for human beings. And she very much loved her family. She had a huge family. So she didn't really need to make many friends. And actually, she didn't. And Anne is the only friend, really, that she made outside of the family. There were other sisters that she and her sister became friends with

and grew up with but Anne was her particular special friend. Now that says a huge amount about Anne Sharp. Do you love Jane Austen as much now as you did when you first read her as a teenager? Oh more, I understand her much more now because the letters and inhabiting her world, as I have tried to do for the last sort of four years, writing Miss Austin and then Gobbush and Park. I mean, God, it was hard. It was really, really hard. And that thing of being absolutely brilliant girl in a house full of very bright boys who went off to have amazing destinies and could do whatever they wanted and who patronized jane and cassandra

all the way through and they had nothing and of course jane is why we even know they're serving exactly if only she knew if this is only she knew well the really heartbreaking thing is the only reason we really know how close anne and jane were um it came up in 2008 when a presentation copy first edition of emma came up for sale at bonhams signed signed by the author to Anne Sharp. And Jane was only given five presentation copies of Emma. And she had, as I say, a squillion brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews and all the rest of it. She gave one to Anne Sharp.

Anne knew she was brilliant. By the time Jane was dead, she was out of fashion. She was forgotten. But Anne knew she was fab and she treasured her stuff and she bequeathed this to a family that kept it for three generations so proof that she knew her genius and proof of their closeness that's what we forget i think i'd certainly forgotten of course that when she died jane austen was not jane austen no she is now she wasn't she wasn't even jane austen when she was alive actually because she was published anonymously.

Her choice. She was published by a lady. So actually nobody knew. Her nieces and nephews would be sitting there reading Pride and Prejudice. She wouldn't tell them she'd written it. That's extraordinary. She was, she had a slightly not 21st century attitude to fame. Whatever the opposite of a fame whore is,

she was it, you know. If she had been born in modern times, what do you think she would have been? A bit of a nightmare, saying the wrong thing, going on shows like this, pissing everybody off. I mean, she spooked her mind. She was awkward and spiky. And people, I think, because my first Austen novel,

Miss Austen, was about her sister Cassandra burning the letters, burning so much trace of her own existence, she burnt away quite a lot of the evidence of how difficult Jane was. She sanitised her as a person and so her fans tend to think she's sort of Lizzie Bennet or something like that. She wasn't Lizzie Bennet at all.

What do you mean? She's spiky? She was much spikier, much spier and um did have a tendency to say the wrong thing and and a slightly awkward manner to her um so this is a controversial question to ask you with only uh two minutes to go jill but good luck with this one jill i know you've got daughters yourself would you advise them to head for the man in the corner of the room with the tight breeches who's emotionally constipated, very difficult to read, finds it almost impossible to express his feelings

and is in search of a wife, i.e. a Mr Darcy? Wouldn't you tell your daughters to run a mile from someone like that? Yes, I mean, i think you might have daughters as we know we can't tell them to do a bloody thing can we do the exact opposite i'd like one of them to bring home a nice reverend collins actually that's what i'd like but the cult of darcy is extraordinary the cult of darcy is extraordinary but it i believe it to come from the end where he is a reformed character and the genius of the book is that it is Lizzie who has reformed him that she is the agent of Darcy's change and that is

the reason we know it's going to be a great marriage because Lizzie has made him the man he now is and so I will I think that's what Jane wanted to take away. But I mean, Mr Knightley, who starts off awfully good and finishes awfully good, does not have the same rep as Mr Darcy. It's true. You could always do Darcy the divorce years. Oh, please don't ruin it.

It's just because it's divorce day tomorrow and we're both gearing up for it. Oh, God. I should say this. Is that when we all get divorced or divorced? No, I think they, well, they they celebrate it. They release every year

saying it's the day when most people inquire about divorce. But I don't think it's true. I'm through it with my fingers crossed. I just wanted to say I'm from Liverpool and I couldn't believe that Anne Sharp ended up

starting a school in Everton, in Liverpool. So she does have a life. And she's buried there and she got a very nice obituary as a valued member of the community in the Liverpool Echo. Best-selling author, Jill Hornby, who we were delighted to welcome there and she got a very nice obituary as a valued member of the community and the liverpool echo best-selling author jill hornby uh who we were delighted to welcome to our times radio studio

today and the book is called godmersham park am i saying that right when i read it because i hadn't heard it said out loud i was tempted to say godmersham park well i thought it might be god i didn't know it was i didn't know it still existed. But it's a thing. It's a place. Yes. Godmersham. Godmersham.

Godmersham. There are all kinds of ways you can pronounce that, aren't there? I wonder who lives there now. I'm sure you can find out. Or it might have been turned into a hospitality venue. I think that's happened to many a stately Hume. Yes, that's probably true. Anyway, it's a book that I really did. I think I said during the course of the interview,

I just love just totally indulging myself with it and in it yesterday. The other thing, by the way, which I would like to plug, if anyone's looking for total escapism, is Marie Antoinette, which you can find on the BBC iPlayer. And there are eight episodes of the very first chunk of the life and times of Marie Antoinette. And you will not be disappointed. There's some lovely costumes, some wonderful gardens. And you'll be glad

to know that although it's set in France, everyone speaks wonderful English. There's absolutely no French in it at all. It's weird, isn't it? How the court of the Sun King is often very, very English. Apparently the French are quite angry about this Marie Antoinette thing. I mean, it is, I think it's co-produced by, is it Canal Plus? One of the big French channels, anyway. So they are involved. But I have to say, on their,

I sort of get that point, because there must be some amazing French thespians who've once again been overlooked. I mean, everyone sounds like they're from Isha. But do you think the same thing happens? Do you think there are lots of companies in France who, over the last 50 years or so have made stunning programs and box sets about Henry VIII? Yes. I don't know, speaking French. You see, it's preposterous, isn't it?

Yeah. But actually, I wonder why he didn't play him. He'd have been good, wouldn't he? Yeah. Well, maybe somebody who's listening in France, because I know we've got listeners all over the world. All over the world. Well, anywhere, actually.

Can you tell us if there's a similar thing going on? So Henry VIII would be the most obvious one to make a box set about because of all of the intrigue and the poor women. Let's face it. Let's not forget them. Not forget them. They make the story. Who else would it be?

Who's our Marie Antoinette? Oh, well, I suppose Queen Elizabeth. Lady Jane Grey. The first. Elizabeth I, yeah. Elizabeth I played by, well, she has been played by an American, hasn't she? Yeah, but I bet, you know, I bet there's some kind of Italian six-parter on Elizabeth I, yeah. Elizabeth I played by... Well, she has been played by an American, hasn't she? Yeah, but I bet there's some kind of Italian six-parter on Elizabeth I.

Elizabeth the Primo. Where everybody eats big bowls of pasta. Mille grazie. A Mary. All of that. I discovered a really fantastic new fiction writer over Christmas, Susie Steiner. Oh, yeah, that was a recommendation by a guest. Who was the over Christmas, Susie Steiner. Oh, yeah, that was a recommendation by a guest.

Who was the guest who recommended Susie Steiner? Well, no, it was the lovely owner of the Dulwich Bookshop. That's right, the lady we met, yeah. So I've got stuck into two of those books. Okay, well, as we're doing books, I want to recommend Mary Lawson, then. Amazing. Okay, what are her books about? A Town Called Solace is the one I've just finished.

Yeah. Get involved. Okay. Is it just a one-off novel? You ought to tell me a bit more about it than that. No, well, she's written four books that I know of. I've now got all of them. There's Crow Lake.

I think one is called The Road Ahead. Crow Lake is her best-known book, I think. But they're set in Canada, and they're sort of what you might loosely call... Well, Anne Tyler really likes her, so she's one of Anne Tyler's favourite writers too. So you know what you might loosely call... Well, Anne Tyler really likes her, so she's one of Anne Tyler's favourite writers too. So you know what you're getting. You're getting sort of quality writing with a family story and usually a woman at the heart of it. Would you like to ask me about Susie Steiner?

It says here, Jane, ask Fia a question about Susie Steiner. What does Susie Steiner write about? So she writes fantastic crime fiction featuring DCI Manon. That's the first name of her heroine, who is just following such a wonderful path through life. In the first book, she's doing some really, really bad internet dating at the age of 39 as her biological clock ticks. And in the second book, she has finally met somebody. But she just writes from this glorious older woman perspective about all of the things that... 39?

But all of... she ages naturally through the books. But all of the things that you and I would identify with, actually, it's really wonderful stuff. And I haven't come across a female protagonist in a book for a long time who speaks my language quite as much you know it's clever it's funny um the plots are good i just highly highly recommend it okay well that's definitely one for the ages what was the name again suzy steiner's thank you okay have we got time for emails well why don't you do one and i'll do one and then we'll say goodbye david says he wasn't sure about the new times radio podcast because he'd been a huge fan of... Anyway, he said,

today I listened to the podcast with Giles Brandreth and the one with Susanna Constantine. And guess what? You're back on my playlist. I don't know why I was hesitant, really. The new podcast is you two at your best with bits of appropriate swearing. And that's better.

Happy New Year to you both. Looking forward to listening in 2023. David, thank you very much. I mean, I understand why people were sort of risk averse. Well, so were we. It took us about 25 years to get around to doing this. So welcome. I'm glad you're enjoying it.

But we also do genuinely, we don't mind carping. We don't mind criticism. We'll include it even because we're reasonably understanding in that way, aren't we? Well, we are. I mean, up to a point. If it verges on the misogynistic and just nasty then no i find that too much to read out but uh but yes welcome aboard david nice to have your company uh this one from kathy in derby hi jane and fee just catching up and wanted to overshare

we love an overshare my posh and very loved aunt was visiting my new home for the first time trying to do my best not only did i choose to serve vol-au-vent, but make my own puff pastry. Four hours to make the pastry, let alone cooking and making the filling. The visit went well and the 12, yes only 12, vol-au-vents were a success. With the assembled family, other buffet foods were also consumed. On her way out, my aunt said that while she'd had a lovely visit, she thought in future I should avoid buying frozen vol-au-vent cases. I was gutted. I've never cooked or served them since. Oh, Cathy.

I mean, the thing is, even Mary Berry says, don't waste your time with pastry, just buy it. So I think that lady sounds a little... Making your own puff pastry. Life is too short. But also the vol-au-vent. I haven't seen a vol-au-vent at Christmas for years. Have you?

But also the vol-au-vent. I haven't seen a vol-au-vent at Christmas for years. Have you? I know vol-au-vents were very big in the sort of Lazy Susan age, weren't they, of the 1970s, early 80s? Huge. I think they stretched into the early 90s. Did they?

Okay. I always found them. I'm not keen on puff pastry. And I'm actually even more confused by the term rough puff. Do you know that? Yes. Rough puff pastry. Rough puff pastry. Rough puff. It's just badly made puff pastry isn't it is it yes just ineptly no i thought it was and that's the other thing what's a blind bake oh a blind bake well no you do need to do a blind bake what's

so that's that's where you weight down the pastry with usually ceramic beans and you blind bake it so that it doesn't have a soggy bottom. Because if you put wet stuff on top of your pastry without having some kind of a sealed crust, then obviously the goo will just sink into the goo. Why is it called blind baking? Oh, I don't know the answer to that. I just know what the process is. And where do you get these beans?

Well, they're called ceramic beans, and you can buy them from any quality cooking shop. But if you don't have them, then you can just use rice or some other beans that you haven't soaked, as long as you put a bit of greaseproof paper down in between. I now feel this is entering territory so niche that not even... No, I don't think it's niche at all, actually. I defend the right of people to be blind baking all over the country

without it being called niche. Don't fold your arms like that. Tomorrow's guest is Ramesh Ranganathan, and I can promise you now that the subject of blind baking will not come up. Well, we know that because we've already done the interview. And I haven't got a copy of Harry's book, but I wouldn't mind one. Oh, we know that because we've already done the interview. And I haven't got a copy of Harry's book, but I wouldn't mind one. Oh, I believed you. No, I thought

there might be some sort of early, but nothing. Well, the thing is, they just don't need the publicity. So you and I get sent about 30 books a week at the moment, don't we, because people need publicity. But that one, nope. I did love the line today, and we will stop talking in a second,

but the line today saying that they hadn't done self-examination, but they're going to start. I tell you what, it's not so much navel-gazing as a whole degree in umbilical scrutiny. So I think to say that they haven't done any self-examination yet. We're going to try to be fair then. Brace yourself, Britain. Right, I hope your Christmas was bearable and all your New Year, done any self-examination yet. We're going to try to be fair then. We always try to be fair. Brace yourself, Britain.

Right, I hope your Christmas was bearable and all your New Year and we are really looking forward to getting stuck in. So thank you for listening. Aren't we just? Jane and Fi at Timestock Radio. If you'd like to send us an email, it can be about absolutely anything you like,

but try and keep it clean. you have been listening to off air with jane garvey and fee glover our times radio producer is rosie cutler and the podcast executive producer is ben mitchell now you can listen to us on the free times radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live

radio jeopardy. Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye. voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone