Off Air... with Jane and Fi - A wooden seat for a golden hind

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

Welcome! On the agenda today is being a maverick in the bedroom - no, not like that - we're talking bed sheets, as well as having more loo roll than you let on, the definition of camp, teaching nose-blowing, and style mistakes that are 'making you look older'. Plus, Fi chats to Peter Hammond and Ash Smith, the real campaigners portrayed in Channel 4's Dirty Business. There's no podcast on Monday as Jane and Fi are both off, so we'll see you on Tuesday. Check out our YouTube channel here: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome. I may never recover. I'm not sure I will. He's had a bit of a first-world problem, but it looks like it might be sorted. Yeah, I might have to send one of those heavily adjectival emails. Are you a good complainer? Oh, I don't know, actually. I think I'm quite good on paper.

I think I'm really, really hopeless in person. I think I'm kind of with you. I think I can do a good pithy, incandescent email. but if I'm very angry, IRL, I just burst into tears. Yes, and I just get, yeah, I get very, I get genuinely upset, upset. Yeah, so, yep. And I do think it would make the most fabulous, fabulous radio series, which you would call your call is important to us,

where you just play back, people who've lost it in call centre calls, because I always really feel for the person on the other end of the line. Oh, yeah. But also, it's just, if you were, going to make sure that somebody was at the end of their tether, then you would put them on hold for 45 minutes and then cut them off. And then you'd make them call again and you'd play some absolutely rubbish music at them for another 47 minutes.

Well, you know when they say this call, calls can be recorded? Or all calls are recorded. What is it they say? All calls are recorded for training purposes. Yeah. That always makes me think, oh, okay, well, however irritated I am, I don't want to come across as really horrible. So I'm always over-polite.

Because as you say, the people on the other end, let's be honest, they're often in India. Yeah, it's not their fault. It's not their fault. It is not their fault. Whatever's happened to you. But the glory would be in getting all of those calls, wouldn't it? And using them for not training purposes,

but for highly educational and informative radio purposes. But I don't suppose they're allowed to do that, are they? Are they allowed to just broadcast us? That's your data protection in it. No, they couldn't do that. Anyway, hopefully this will get sorted. I did, I had to go and sit on the crying bench in the canteen. You know, there's a bench on the way into the canteen,

which I think Eve told me it was called the crying bench, because sometimes you will walk past it. And it's weird, there aren't very many areas of privacy in this building. It might be on other floors, but there certainly aren't here. We don't know about those two. That's not to ask. There's a lift that's got double doors. Don't go there.

Okay, right. There's only one lift with double doors, isn't there? Anyway, we won't go there. But apparently the bench on the way into the canteen is quite often where someone's gone for a private phone call and actually it ends up being incredibly difficult. So you walk past somebody who's on the verge of tears and it's known as the crying bench.

I'd like to go and sit there. Talk about my problems. Right, okay. I don't need to do with the hotel booking, actually. That's what I mean. I did say first while. Look, I mean, by the way, isn't it just, we'd just like to apologise for our various stages of snotiness over the last time.

Things are, as you'll probably be able to hear, a little better now. But there is something, these head, this particular version of the head cold, and that's all I've had. Oh, it just lasts forever. It's a right lingerer. So mine's still not completely gone. I still feel very bunged up indeed. I'm hoping for a return to form over the weekend.

Right, yeah. But you feel a bit better. Oh, I feel much better. I felt probably yuck at the weekend. So yes, I don't think you can catch it through the radio but if you're worried about it just give us a quick antibacterial wipe and we'll be fine. Wipe us down.

Now you've got some advice here from Harry about your steamy lenses. I was grateful for them. Your discussion of Jane's steamy, moisture-retaining lenses really made me laugh yesterday. I have the same problem and I have to put it down to my large lenses and also the fact that my frames are a bit bent and the lenses now sit closer to me

to my eye than they probably should. Anyway, I was intrigued to find out about the actual in-eye lens replacement, your fellow listener mentioned. Not that it's a competition, but I've got minus 10 and minus 11 eyes. So a new lens wouldn't go amiss. Well, I mean, it is a competition, Harry, and you've won. You absolutely have. You can't see the prize, but you've won. Minus 10 and minus 11, I really feel for you because that means that when you don't have your glasses on, you are really, really struggling to see anything at all, aren't you? So, I mean, there just must be so many times

where you're caught a bit short with that type of restrictive vision. So, yeah, get new lenses. So my friend, the one who accused me of mainly being face furniture these days and just not being a person. 85% spent glasses. It was so early in the morning for that kind of. conversation. So he had his done on the NHS, so I think it is very available to all. Really? Yeah. Okay. Gosh. I think Cathy Newman's had it done too. Has she? Yes.

I just drop that in there. Shoebus health anecdote. This isn't really showbiz or health, but it did make me laugh. It's from Carol Midgley's column in the Times newspaper. Do you read it? Kathy Corporate, yes I do. A study once claimed, and I don't know whether I could back this up, but a study once claimed that people who like being naked at home have a higher IQ. What? What is the survey that revealed that? I mean, I suppose most of us at some point or another do find ourselves with no clothes on

within the confines of our own home. It's not unreasonable, isn't it? But would you travel outside of one room to another room naked? Only if I thought the coast was clear, fee. Anyway, Carol goes on A man of 42 from Derbyshire had to go to A&E this week after waking up to find that his body

had gone blue in the night like a smurf doctors gave him oxygen The NHS is beleaguered It doesn't need this kind of thing But the mystery was solved When one rubbed his arm with an alcohol wipe And the blue just came off It happened to be die from his new bed sheets

I never knew you had to wash your sheets Before you slept on them to the man Who sleeps naked I don't know I just What? That's really bizarre I mean is that every sheet

Or is that just cheap sheets Or what I don't I find that an absolutely bewilderer I personally I do like to wash sheets Before I put them on the bed Oh I never do If they're new

But I don't think I've only really started doing that If I'm honest within the last month So when I say I like to do And I have never ever gotten a different colour in the night because of the colour of my sheets. But anyway, look, we're all different. By the way, he's obviously quite a racy man of 42

because he's got blue sheets, which wouldn't be up there for me because that's a raw cold colour for a sheet, isn't it? I like a dark sheet. Oh, dear. Definitely a dark fitted sheet. Okay. Yep.

And it's taken me a long time, I mean, this may have such to do with the matching underwear, to be able to just be a little bit carefree between my bed sets. Oh, God! Really? You see, I love a jumble so I have different pillow cases and everything.

Well, I mean, get you, get you. I just go mad. You're so maverick, Jane. Totally crazy. I'm absolutely wacky as anything. But it's taken me a while to get there, but now I would not go back to the monochrome colour of a bed set at all. Because I'll have a floral pillow

on top of a plain pillow with a different coloured fitted sheet. Oh, well, that's it. That is... Yeah, but a different colour. Right, that's what I'd go for as well now. Yeah. Come on everybody. So if we went to Annie, we'd be multi-coloured,

we'd be all over the bloody place. Absolutely. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Okay, right, here are my tips for surviving family stays. This has been quite a lively subject on the pod this week because one of our correspondence is facing the not unhappy prospect of her junior family moving in, son, daughter-in-law and two young lads under the age of, well, let's say under the age of 12. and they could be there for quite some time

and you've been chipping in with your bits of advice. Sue says, okay, here's what you need for surviving family stays, earplugs. Good quality ones for sleeping through family coming up to bed later than you and middle of the night toilet trips with toddlers. A cheap and cheerful stick vacuum for whizzing up crumbs around the dining table. A later shower at night rule. Nothing after 11pm. Okay.

Book a holiday anywhere. a lay by down the road in a tent, just go, buy more toilet paper than you did in lockdown and hide some emergency rolls, put everyone in charge of making sure you don't run out of milk. And finally, listen to Jane and Feed Daily. What could go wrong? I don't think anything could go wrong with those top tips, to be honest.

Not a thing. It is always worth having a little more lue roll than you let on. Oh God, it so is. It really is, yeah. And I know that you've always got some down in the cellar. Yes. And if it came to... it, then you would be happy to use the cardboard cut out of Julian Warwicker and Peter Allen, too.

You're obsessed with this. I don't have a carpet. Yes, you do. You've got a life size when I know you have. YouTube side feed comes in from Sarah after your mention of the daytime jackets feature on FISA YouTube sidebar when she played back Monday's edition on the YouTube. Thought you might like to know that I had your feed alongside expert therapist and diagnosed narcissist and 10 style mistakes that make you look older. that's just style mistakes that make you look older and of course I'm laughing but I'm also thinking

I might have a look at that it would be nine on that one chart but that's just superb I would really really like it if more people just write and tell us it doesn't have to be something remarkable or funny but I'm intrigued by what you're getting on your side by

will you just look at our new channel on YouTube and tell me what the first couple are that come up. Can I come back with that next week? Yes, you can. Right. You may do that. You may do that. Now we have quite a few on ditching the fags. Yeah. Ditching the fags, ditching the fags. Another Jane wrote in, I eventually managed to stop smoking in January 1982, just a few days before I found out I was pregnant with our second child.

My smoking years began at the age of 11 on a mid-infested Scottish island and continued through my school years, further education, work. And now I'm utterly ashamed to say, right through my first pregnancy, When I asked the midwives if I should stop, they told me to just cut down a bit. What finally worked for me was making an agreement with a friend that we would stop. We thought about making it a New Year resolution, but decided those were always doomed to failure, so we'd make it the end of January. In the event, I ran out of cigarettes before then and just decided not to buy it anymore.

It worked for me because I bloody well wasn't going to give in before she did, and perhaps the pregnancy hormones helped a bit too. I later discovered she had been having a sly puff now and again, but she was the kind of smoker who could do that. I'd been the type who lit up as soon as I put the kettle on in the morning, a right old fagash lill. Anyway, stopping the evil weed was the best thing I ever did. To anyone who's trying to break free, I'd say keep trying,

because something will eventually work for you. For me, it was my own pride and arrogance. I did nearly start again a few years later, pissed at a party. my wee sister, blesser, pulled the bag out of my mouth before it was lit and told me not to be so effing stupid. Stopping now as I'm beginning to bore myself. Well, you're not boring anybody.

No, that was good. And that is good. And you're... I'm also really honest as well. And you're completely right. Just keep trying to give up because eventually you will find something that works for you. And there's a terrible sense of defeat when you've managed to go, you know, three months without a cigarette and then you do cave in.

But I just say, don't worry about it. Do you know what? I found nicotine replacement therapy. So I still use them, those tiny little, I use nicotine lozenges. And they just give you, they give the receptors in your brain a hit of nicotine that basically tells your brain that you've had the thing that you absolutely love. And I did try patches, which didn't work for me at all. I tried willpower. I tried, you know, kind of mind CBT thing. I read Alan Carr's book, not the chatty man, but the... More fun to read his book, I suspect. But I tried a lot of things, a lot of things, and nothing worked for me at all. And then I tried a lozenge, and they're so weird. And I hated the first one that I had, but I realised that my brain had kicked in to say, yeah, you've had a fag.

And it just worked for me. So I really like them. But, I mean, the problem is I've been on those for 15 years now. 15 years. I don't use them very often now. But I know that they're there. And I'm sure you're only meant to use them for six weeks or something. But, I mean, they're nicotine.

Yeah, it is better than smoking. So that's what worked for me. But it did take a very, very long time. And absolutely no judgment on the pregnancy thing. I think as soon as you get pregnant, there is a whole list of things that you're not around to do. Don't do blue cheese. Oh, is it blue? No, it's soft cheese.

I mean, just a huge, huge list. And of course I'm not. not condoning, harming your baby at all. But you may well go from quite a fun-loving, free-spirited, you may well have got pregnant during one of those fun-loving, free-spirited occasions, which has been accompanied by some alcohol, some cigarettes and some fun. And you get pregnant, and the whole thing's got to stop. And I think, you know, nicotine is such an addictive substance.

We know that now. It's really, really difficult to do. So no judgment about women who find it incredibly difficult and end up you know, cutting down. Of course you should stop. Of course you should. But it just doesn't seem to be a reasonable thing

to expect everybody to be able to do that just like that. If it were that simple... It wouldn't be a thing. It wouldn't be an issue at all. It was that simple. The tobacco companies wouldn't be that rich chain. I think they have made a few quid over the years.

Yeah, because it's about an addiction that defies logic. Well, I mean, tell you what it does, because the price of a packet of bags, I confess I don't know exactly how much. But it's about 15 quiddle. 15, yeah. Wow.

So it's not a cheap, it's not a cheap habit or addiction, is it? Far from it. And you've got those truly blood-curdling warnings on the packaging. Yeah, you're in the grip of something, and it's probably not your fault. Well, it isn't your fault if you can't stop. Yeah.

It's really, it's very, very interesting. And we have had a range, and that was a very honest email from someone who, I was going to say admitted, but acknowledges that they smoke during pregnancy. And it is also true that the judge, judgment, please, do come knocking when you're pregnant. And everybody feels apparently entirely free to judge everything about you, your shape, your lifestyle.

And your decision-making. Well, no. Because we both put on quite a bit of weight during pregnancies and you've got a photograph of yourself. I just keep it because it does cheer people up. It does. And it's good of you to show people. Thank you. and in there just as a little kind of chaser

after people have seen that I've made available my King Charles Spaniel hair cut shot Exactly It's quite something too We're honestly, we're such givers Everybody in here They can't wait to see us in the morning Our younger colleagues

Bring so much joy Derry deary me You mentioned sorry, go on No I was just going to say There are another couple of How to Stop Smoking emails that I will say for our email-only edition on Monday. If anybody wants to...

Well, we're not having one on Monday, are we? We're not here, because we're not here? Well, let's do it on Tuesday. Let's do it Tuesday. Okay. You mentioned Alan Carr. Sorry, I'm going to have to reference a Times product again. The Sunday Times property section, which I read in the middle of the week, due to my routine,

featured the house that he single-handedly, except with the help of Amanda Holden, renovated on their latest, you know, what do they do? they go to some old ruin and they make it fabulous. This is the Greek one? Yeah, it's for sale. How much? How much? Well, from memory, I think it was about £660,000.

But the money goes to charity. It doesn't go to Alan Carr and Amanda Holden. Because I'm here to say, I don't think that would be entirely fair. It doesn't go to the BBC either. But they are making these shows for, I think it goes to, I'm not going to say, actually, it definitely goes to charity, not to them. And I thought, well, that's quite interesting. I haven't actually seen that series.

I do rather enjoy those two together. They're quite funny. I watched the end one. So I didn't watch any of the build-up to it, but I watched the finale where they always, a little bit like Nick Knowles with his DIYS-OS, they invite all of the builders, everybody who's had anything to do. They're as big-hearted as we are. They're lovely.

Oh, they're fabulous. And it did look beautiful, Jane. Really, really beautiful. And Demander Holden in particular was terribly teary about having to leave this one. She felt that quite a lot of her heart would remember. in Greece, in particular in the cold plunge pool.

Which was lovely. It's really very nice. Well, I mean, it is now available. So don't all rush at once, but you could buy that property. It's probably been snapped up already, isn't it? I would imagine so. Just because it's got the whiff of Alan

still lurking around. He's an amusing gentleman, isn't he? I do five. There's just, there's something about his... I mean, you know, we've had loads and loads of very camp entertainers in this country before.

he's camp. But he's got such a delicious self-awareness, hasn't he? I really love that about him. I think that the whole, I'm not an expert on camp and campery, but I've always loved that humor. I mean, I used to love Larry Grayson. Yeah, he was good. On the generation game. And there was just something. Well, I'd love to know from other people, what, how you define camp exactly, because it is a word that I throw around myself, but I can't be completely certain that I could define it. What would you, what would you, what would you? say? Well, I'd say it was a kind of humour that is

slightly taking the Mickey out of the opposite of being an alpha male. Does that make sense? Yes, that's one aspect of it. It's reveling in not being bicep, wielding, man spreading, in control, all of that type of stuff. It's

arch and it's knowing. Yeah. But it's relatively gentle, isn't it? It's gentle and it's a little bit fay and it also, I mean, It's always heading for humour, isn't it? It's not exclusively British, far from it, but I don't know, a bit of it does seem to have originated here.

I don't know, it could be wrong, but it makes me think of this email from Belinda. Can you have a camp woman? Well, I think some women are celebrated as having camp qualities. But I'm on thin, I don't know, and I'd like to know more about it, because I do, people, so-called camp people, make me laugh and always have done. So, Lee's Manelli's a camp woman, isn't she? Well, gosh, I mean, have you read some of the stuff about her? I have.

I'd like her to just be my friend. I'd like her to come and live with me in safety. I worry about her, Jane, don't you? She's had a hell of life. Yeah, I do worry. She's made, I'm going to say, I think she's made some rogue decisions. But I don't think her start was ideal, was it? I think it's horrendous.

I mean, she just had a mum. was just looking the other way. All the time. Well, if she did look at Lisa Minlella, Liza Minle, it was because she was jealous of her. I mean, it's... God, no. I mean, I hope I'm assuming

that book will do really, really well. It's her... Asimenele's memoir, isn't it? Yeah, sorry, I say, Lisa is it... I don't know whether it's Lisa and Lise. You see, I'm out of my depth. I don't know. Way out of my depth.

But I wanted to bring in this email from Belinda. I've been meaning to email you about one thing or another for a long time. Get off the pot, all you people who sit at home thinking I'm going to email them and then for whatever reason something crops up and you, I don't know, some domestic turmoil

like a... Oh, you have to go to work. Yes, you actually have to earn a living or look after the family, whatever it might be. But come on, if you're thinking of sending an email, why not make it this weekend? Anyway, Belinda has finally got round to it. Someone who's lived outside the UK since the 90s and I really miss the people

are both friends and family and the people you bump into while out and about. I really enjoy listening to you in your chat despite having lived in Austria for 23 years and being fluent in German. I didn't think I'd need a handkeeper, I think I might.

We're taking a little break. Eve is going to go and get Joan a tissue. I hope that Jane is going to be capable of using this tissue without Eve's help. But let's see how that one goes. I don't want you. You've developed some amazing graces now. I love it.

So what age do you think you were when your mum stopped blowing your nose for you? Oh, God. Oh, probably. We're getting on for 18, I would have thought, thank you very much. Because you do. Don't go corporate on me now. Leave it. There are times tissues, everybody.

How we've changed. You know, sometimes you will see quite an old child being helped to blow their nose by a parent. I remember this with my own kids. You actually do have to learn to blow out. You have to teach them how to blow their nose and stuff. I wish somebody had told me there's so much about parenting I didn't know lay ahead. And that was one of the things. You have to be taught to blow your own nose.

And I remember just shouting, just blow out! But, you know, it just wasn't that. Obviously, I didn't shout. I mean, not quite as assertively as that sounded. But also, when they're babies, I mean, they really can't blow their own nose. So you do have to wipe them an awful lot. and there are some strange contraptions that have been designed

to help children's noses are the absolutely revolting kind of suction things. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Right, Belinda, who is back with you. Despite having lived in Austria for 23 years and being fluent in German, oh yes, we've done this bit.

I was flying back home from Stansted Erput. I was flying back home. God, okay. I was flying back home from Stanstedt airport earlier this month and as we had an apparently suspicious looking bicycle pump in our luggage don't ask we were pulled aside for a full bag search slightly i don't know what that happened what could she have and by full i really do mean full they took all the bags i'd carefully packed in separate bags to make sure they stayed in pristine condition out of the bags and leafed through every single page of every

single book but the two people doing the search were chatty and freda and we really didn't mind the hold-up as we weren't in a rush. After joking that they'd have to confiscate all our Easter chocolate and hot cross buns, they asked us where we were flying to. Oh, Vienna, said the woman. Oh, Vienna, said the woman. The man, you have to get this intonation right? Oh, Vienna, said the woman.

The man shook his head and said, sadly, means nothing to me. I just thought, do, do, do, do, do. Exactly. I just thought to myself, said Belinda, that would never ever happen in Austria. Well, thanks to my inability to read your email, it nearly didn't happen at all. But I take your point, Belinda.

And I'm puzzled by aspects of your experience that's Danstedt. But, I mean, why do they need to check every single book? I mean, how suspicious does Belinda look? Yeah, I don't know. It's a strange one, isn't it? But it's always good to hear an example of, can I say, classic British humor. Yeah, it's very good.

and I hope it was delivered very Sotovoce. Yes. It means nothing to me. Yep. It's a lovely song, isn't it? Do you know what we're on about, Eve? She hasn't got a clue. Ultravox.

It means nothing to me. Oh, thank you. She definitely won that one. I'm afraid she did. Famously, of course, kept off number one by... Joe Dolce, shut up of your face. Yeah, that's a good pop fact. I'm no Vasca da Gama, says Sean and Kate.

which is a fantastic title for an email. I enjoyed your random naming of boats before you settled upon the golden hind as the name of the ship around me. We'll get there in the end, Sean. We always do. On the back of that conversation, Fee suggested that she has moments before holidays

when she feels she'd rather remain at home than go away. It's very late on Wednesday night and I'm mulling over how much easier it would be to stay at home tomorrow. However, should you read out this email in Thursday's podcast, I will listen to it on what promises to be a blustery rainy overnight ferry journey from Portsmouth to Carn. Oh, Sean.

And it is very windy. It's ever so windy. Out there at the moment and quite cold again, isn't it? So I hope you're okay, Sean. Winter draws on, I'm afraid. And Sean goes on to say, I realise I'm no Vasco da Gama, setting sail to discover new lands

and that ultimately I will have a splendid week in Normandy. But it's consoling to know that somebody else might experience the pre-trip doubts that I always have. I'm pulling myself together and anticipating a cheery bon voyage from you to set me on my way. Yeah. Well, Bon voyage, Sean. And I very much hope that you're not up on deck, staring at one point on the horizon all the way from Portsmouth to calm.

I wonder how just how rough that particular crossing is. I've never done it on the ferry, so I don't know. I think the channel can be a really challenging stretch of water, can't it? Yeah. We've done that on the ferry. And very weirdly, my ex-husband, who was a very experienced sailor, he went from... Can I ask which was it? I was so jealous.

Which one do you think? I don't know, please. I haven't heard the rest of the story. Just with, he was a very experienced sailor. You absolutely know which one it is. Right. Actually, I don't. Oh, the idea that the first one would be an experience.

Oh, I see, yes. Captain Pogwash, yeah, okay, cool. So the second husband. It sailed all the way from Sydney to Cape Town across some of the most horrendously difficult, bumpy, albatross-infested ocean waters on the planet. But we did go from Portsmouth to Carnie. He was very sick. I had to look after the kidneys.

And I don't know I felt for him because it's absolutely horrible. Of course you did, yeah. Just to bring him. and Rick in Tuffnell Park. Oh, see what I did there. Yes, Tuffel Park. Anyway, and it starts sorry to disillusion fee.

Well, that's happened before. You've got form. Right, no, press on. No, we're going to get through. Is there a guest? There are two. Oh, thank God. I know.

Yeah, you and me both. Right, quickly, please. Right. Maritime history with Rick. The Golden High Near London Bridge, are you ready? It's a sea-worthy replica.

It's not the original. Some of the timber from the original ship does exist. It's been made into a chair and it can be found in Oxford. It's been made into a chair and can be found in Oxford's Bodleyan Library. Right, there's a picture of that.

Thanks. Look at that. It's most interesting. It's the Drake chair. It looks so uncomfortable, too. It doesn't look. I mean, you do have to wonder how people relaxed in the 17th century

because that chair, it just looks really hard. I mean, presumably cushioning was available. Well, I would hope so. Yeah. But even the cushioning, it just would have been, it would have been horsehair and stuff like that, wouldn't it? They wouldn't have had any of the lovely memory foam who've got for our buttocks these days.

Do your joke about memory foam because it's quite funny. What happens if it's a bad memory foam? Thank you. Just as a, because there will be some intellectuals listening, between the 15th of December, 1577 and the 26th of September 1580, Francis Drake completed the first circumnavigation of the globe by an English sea captain. Although a special dry dock was created at Detford to preserve his ship, the golden hind, it did unfortunately decay.

Oh, right, the task of breaking up what remained fell to a man called John Davis of Camberwell, who was keeper of the naval stores at Defford. Well, that's absolutely, in its own way, genuinely fascinating. Gosh, I mean, it does make you think, Fee, it took him between December of 1577 and late September of 1580 to get round the globe. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry, Sean, but that does put forthsmouth to Carn in some kind of perspective.

Well, yeah, it does. I hope it helps. Yeah, and I love the fact that Sean admitted, because it comforts me that he was, you know, not certain the night before whether he wanted to be asked doing it. I'm so with him. It's just there with so many of us, isn't it? And you just, you almost think,

I mean, if the airport, ferry port, whatever was shut, wouldn't be all right. I'd be okay. Final one from me comes from Tracy in northwest London. The one who sent shortbread in last month. Oh, yes. Send you something nice for Easter. Please do.

and don't go to that horrible dark chocolate place though you know the 70% plus cocoa that does the rounds we don't like that we take well no actually I don't like it I don't like it no I don't like it at all had to send you this photo of an old advert from the late 1970s for baby oil sold as tanning oil it's phenomenal Tracy I understand that Johnson and Johnson have been sued by skin cancer sufferers

but I don't know if they got a good outcome I think the talcum powder lawsuits might be keeping them rather busy. Do you know, I sometimes think that the talcum powder story didn't get quite as much no, a hoo-ha around it as it needed to. I mean, is that because it did get settled? I mean, it just seems outrageous that there was so much evidence building. And yet it was still on sale and it was just sold as such a benign product chain that you wouldn't even have to think about.

It was to give your skin a kind of light drying, dusting. Yes. After what? After washing. So, I mean, it was one of those incredibly unnecessary products, actually. You know, we don't need it at all. But it was primarily sold, wasn't it, for babies' bottoms? I mean, that was always the, you know, the comparison.

So it doesn't act as any, it's not like a barrier cream. It's not, I don't believe so. I don't protect you from, no. No. Anyway. Just Googling, sorry, if she's done enough really, but what is Talcum? What is it? While Steve does that, I'll get to the end of this email.

It's mind-boggling. We had no idea that cooking our skin like this might affect us in older age. I never used baby oil, but I did use coconut oil for a few years in my 20s until I got educated about the need for some protection. I wear SPF 50 on my face all year round. I have done for 20 years.

I don't have any brown spots or sun damage, so I think it's working. Well, Tracy, thank you for sending us the advert. So, I mean, it is extraordinary. It's a beautiful young woman leaning into the camera and she's got a very nice dark tan. Well, I mean, nice if you like tanning. And a bottle of Johnson's baby oil in front.

And the legend is turn on a tan with Johnson's. It's summer baby. The pale romantic heroin is out. The tan romantic heroin is in. B1, a bronze and beautiful one by turning on a tan with Johnson's baby oil. It turns it on fast. and deep and the deeper the tan

the longer it'll last after summer's gone. It's the same pure oil your mother used to keep your skin soft and smooth when you were a baby. Oh Lord. I mean the irony of that, Jane, is quite something. Just smooth it on and let the sun do its thing. But don't overdo it. Remember, baby oil has no sunscreens

so you should take a little less sun than with cover-up lotions and creams. Turn on a tan, baby, and you'll turn on a hero. Turn on a tan. And you'll turn... Wow. Wow. Yep.

And you'll turn on a tan. And you'll turn on a hero. Right. Thank you, Eve. Talcum or talc is a naturally occurring, soft inorganic mineral composed of hydrated magnesium silicate. And because talc mines,

talc mines, can be located near asbestos deposits. Some products may contain trace amounts of asbestos, the International Agency for Research on Cancer, classifies asbestos containing talc as carcinogenic. Okay, thank you, Eve. Gosh, talc mines. Why had I never even considered that? I suppose that's...

I was baffled, which is why I asked. Yeah. But I suppose that's my point for asking about why it didn't get more va-va-voom around it. Because I still think there's quite a lot of ignorance about the whole topic. Definitely. Right. Final couple from you?

No, just very briefly. bring in Lucy. She is in Devon. She's in Barnstable. I'm still on a time delay. I'm six weeks behind, but that's not a geographical problem. It's just a hectic life. All right, well, don't worry about it. By the way, six weeks behind with this podcast, you know, it's fine. I mean, that doesn't really matter, does it? You've just got to listen at a time of your own choosing. Just make sure you do. I mean, if you have to give up work and stay up all night to listen, do it. Anyway, she is going to try to watch the Louis Theroux documentary about the Manosphere.

Now, I haven't watched it yet, but I will watch it over the weekend. Have you seen it? I haven't watched it yet, but I will try and watch it over the weekend as well. And because it features the guy whose book I've got suggested by Tanya, which is Marlon Gaines. And he's the author of Why Women Deserve Less. And I think him and his great big bulging biceps feature in Louis Thoreau's doc. Okay. Well, Lucy says, I've got a lot of respect for Louis Thoreau. so I've got high hopes that as a man he might be listened to by the other men

right then she sent another email to say I just couldn't get past 24 minutes watching these people actually believe what they're saying and how they know what women think need are most ridiculous thing I heard I wouldn't say that to my mom she'd just give me a slap we're going to have to watch the Great British menu

with my super lovely husband instead right will you do that and enjoy the Great British menu that's a nice programme isn't it the Great British menu as lacked as a pallet cleanser. Yes, I think that's a perfect place to go. But I am going to watch it, and if you are going to watch it

or you have watched it over the weekend, let us know next week what you think about it. Because in a way, it makes me think about men not being terribly good at challenging other men because it's something we have talked about. Oh, my goodness, I think I've banged on about it a bit too much. Yeah, in the light of Mandelson and everything else. And some Mandelson files dropped, well, published yesterday,

dropped, just makes it sound more interesting. Yesterday, and it's largely a male-dominated atmosphere, isn't it? And very few women feature. And the woman who does feature is Karen Pearce, who was the British ambassador in the States. She wasn't sure about the appointment of Madelson. But guess what? She was so ridden. Yeah. Eve's just reminded me that, and she's also reminded me to say that there is a bonus edition of Off Air Tomorrow, which is an interview with two brilliant women, who were the women who translated Giselle Pelico's memoir into English. And it's, because we were talking about translators and what an art form it is.

And it was a real privilege to speak to these two incredibly able women. And what was lovely about it was that they'd formed a real friendship around this project because it wasn't really something either of them wanted to do on their own. So they worked together but in different time zones because one was in Australia. Anyway, it's worth hearing. If you're interested in foreign languages and translating and the particular delicacy of this piece of work, it's worth hearing tomorrow. And we should really big up the translators

because there's a piece in the paper today just about AI. his menacing grasp on translation because you can just press a button now God, I didn't even thought about that. And, you know, a whole book will be translated but will it have the nuance and convey the intent of the original author?

So it's a very good thing to still be celebrating, I think, the work of the translator. We've got two amazing guests for you now and I think a little bit like the sense of doom that we have approaching a holiday the night

before. I went into researching the work of Ash Smith and Peter Hammond with a slight sense of oh gosh, the world is very dark at the moment and this is a dark place as well. But I think their work is just astonishing and without it we wouldn't know what we do know at the moment. You might not automatically know who I mean when I introduce Ash Smith and Peter Hammond but they deserve to be household names. They are the two campaigners who've held the feet of the water company to the fire for more than a decade. They met as neighbours in a village in the Cotswolds, brought together by a shared concern about the state of their local river, the windrush. They realised that something had changed, the wildlife had gone, there were no more fish, and they looked to Thameswater

for answers. What they found started them on a journey of discovery, which is now detailed in Dirty Business, a three-part series on Channel 4, filthy rivers, sewage pumped into the sea, a total lack of accountability by the water companies, obfuscation from the Environment Agency, little response from government. It is an astonishing story. The programme also tells us about the death of Heather Preen. She was just eight when she fell sick after playing on the beach at Dawlish in Devon, where there had been a sewage discharge by Southwest Water. She died of E. coli poisoning. The inquest recorded a verdict of death by misadventure. Now, Ash and Peter have been described as national heroes for their work. Ash was a former detective superintendent in the Met,

Peter, a professor of computational biology, and he used those skills to look at data, which proved that water companies were not doing the job that we were paying for them to do. They joined us earlier today at Times Towers, I asked Peter to tell me about what we've already lost, what the river windrush used to be like. Well, in 2002, when I first moved here, the river was generally very clear. Occasionally in the summit, we'd get it slightly murky in a natural way. You can imagine those long waves of this rununculus weed flowing,

you know, in the river with a little white flowers on. We would have swans coming every spring, very often to make a nest and in rear some, you know, signets. The garden that we share with two of the next, neighbors is a big garden with the river flowing around it, full of wildlife, and much of that wildlife being supported by a healthy river. And the healthy river is part of an ecosystem, isn't it? So all of the other animals, all of the other birds, they rely on the river being healthy in order for them to be there and be healthy themselves.

Yeah, well, I can take that. Yeah, I spent my life around rivers. As a former angler, I've spent my time around chalk streams like the River Kennet in Berkshire, and they are a thing of absolute beauty and a magnet. You see all of the invertebrate life that then gives birth to the dragonflies, the may fly. So much of the food chain is rooted in that water, apart from the water itself. It's such an important feature.

And you'll see it if you just make a little pond for your garden and just put clean water in it. Just watch the transformation, just watch how life is drawn to it and starts to grow in it. And then try putting some dirty, polluted water there and see what happens. It's just, it's that simple to demonstrate. We've got so much to talk about with what you two gentlemen found and have done over the last couple of decades.

I mean, it's almost impossible to condense it into a 20-minute interview. But I wonder whether it would be. helpful just so we really make an impact with this. If you could describe, having told us what a beautiful river should be like, the very worst that you then ended up seeing because of the pollution that has gone into our rivers. Well, I mean, it is tragic and shocking to see what happens when a river is truly abused by sewage pollution. And it can be a chronic effect. So just, it's not so much that fish are going belly up, although this does. does happen in many, many cases, and we've filmed that.

And some of that is shown in dirty business. Some of our footage shows those dead fish. Often it's about affecting the breeding capabilities. So slowly the river declines. And slowly the water quality goes off. The weeds disappear. And the invertebrate life goes, the fish life drops down to very little just hanging on.

And the water becomes murky and it often becomes quite gray. And this is a familiar scene. But it happens slowly. And then sometimes you need to get a piece of video like we did. Very lucky early on that I was given a piece of video by a person who'd campaigned for against water abstraction. They'd had the river films specifically to look at the river. That's so rare because mainly people are filming things going on on the riverbank. And we could show beautiful, almost like as clear as tap water with loads of big fish swimming around.

The windrush had been described as like, an aquarium. And then when I was approaching the Environment Agency in the early stages, they were saying, no, no, no, that's just some old anglers with rose-tinted spectacles. It was never like that. And then I produced that video. And I was shocked when I had it converted to a modern file, I thought they've messed up the colour. Of course, they hadn't messed up the colour. That was how the gravel used to be. Golden, pristine, clean, with colourful life, all about. it. And without that sort of record, we would have just been dismissed as that never actually happened. Tell us about the data as well that you obtained using a freedom of information request and what you felt about it when it came back. Well, like many people, we started looking in the river at the quality of the river. But I felt that my skills could be better turned to getting data from the water companies and that describes, you know, whether they're operating their sewage works and their pumping stations properly. So Ash started off by requesting some data

from the agency in Thames Water. And when the Thames Water came, it was, you know, just enormous spreadsheets with, you know, columns and rows of numbers. And so what I did, because it's, you know, it's my professional training, I started to visualize the data looking for patterns of normal behaviour, of good operation and then patterns in the data when actually the operation was poor and even in breach of permits and hence breaking the law. And what you found, I mean, detailed so brilliantly

in dirty business, is just this extraordinary thing that the water companies were doing, which was when their mechanisms didn't function properly, instead of mending them and protecting the environment, they simply pressed buttons that were released sewage into the rivers. So effectively, we were all paying them to do a job, and they were just opening the window and chucking shit out, weren't they?

So it's a slightly different arrangement, but pretty much, as you described, they normally have a certain amount that they have to take to treatment. And then after, as the level gets above that, there's normally something like a weir where the excess flows over, sometimes into a settling tank. Sometimes they stop the sewage debris, the sanitary products and everything else that people see littered around riverbanks. Sometimes they stop that, but the actual toxic sewage pollution

then goes into a watercourt into the river. And they were saying to start with, but it's just for a short amount of time. It's to stop sewage backing up into your home. What do you expect us to do? and then and it's meant to be an exceptional circumstance, exceptional rain, but we thought, well, it rained sometimes, but it wasn't exceptional. And then as we started to look at the data, we've been incrementally shocked, frankly.

To start with, we discovered that they'd been dumping sewage, Aborten on the Water, popular tourist place near by, for over a week, 24 hours a day, and we thought that was stunningly shocking. But since then, we've found up to virtually, six months or even more sometimes of consistently dumping sewage. And that's not an aberration. There are many, many that you can find that have gone for over three months, four months, with some little breaks in between because they like to break it up sometimes. Real abuse of the law, illegal. They've tried to normalise that. It's not normal. It's illegal.

And it's doing huge amounts of damage. Who is it who should have been making sure that that wasn't happening? Obviously, the Environment Agency's job is to police the activities of the water companies, you know, in terms of guarding against abuse and pollution of rivers. But what we found very quickly was that although there was very detailed data available, they were just asking for summary data, which you couldn't possibly use to evaluate what was going on. So we immediately went straight for this detailed data,

which just revealed thousands of illegal sewage spills. And I remember when I had to give evidence to the Environmental Order Committee in the House of Commons, I stuck my neck out and said, I think it's 10 times worse than the agency know about. And then later I had to revise that. I got it wrong. I told them it's 20 times worse.

So actually, you know, they didn't really have a clue about what was going on. So is it also? as well as not having a clue about what was going on, it's something far more deliberate than that, actually. I would really love you both to explain how it can be that my sewage, your sewage, your river, you know, Eves River,

what is the relevance of all of that to say a sovereign wealth fund in a Gulf state? Why are these two things connected? Yeah, yeah. So privatisation, can, came in in 1989 and prior to that there have been 10 years of deliberate underinvestment of the water industry. So many people's last memory of what publicly owned water was like wasn't that good because they hadn't been able to spend any money for 10 years. Privatization came in to fix that. That was the promise it would bring in investment.

What it actually brought in, it attracted so-called investors from all around the world. because what we are is like 62 million captive customers who cannot give up water for January or something we all have to use water we have to use the sewage system so they have a guaranteed stream of money they had debt-free companies that have been given to them and basically they've treated it as as a money extraction machine so that the promises of money being brought in were just false people just bought sections of the company, which they would then sell on later, and they just used them even in the words of Thameswater's own independent valuer that was produced a piece of work

for the recent High Court case for their financial troubles. That valuation report said since privatization, Thameswater, since privatization, Thameswater concentrated on taking money out in dividends and pretty much forgot that it had a job to do and to maintain. maintain the infrastructure. Slightly different words, of course, but that's the sentiment and very clearly put. And that's what they've done. That's what all the companies have done.

They've never, in Temeswater's case, the work done by Stanley Rood, a former auditor from Pricewaterhouse, Cooper, who works with us, discovered that there's not been one single year since privatization when the shareholders put in more cash than they took out. And mostly they don't put any in. Everything is funding.

is funded by the bill payer and the bill payer has been taxed for providing that money. It's almost impossible for people to grasp that on first description because you think, no way would a government ever let us be victim of a scam like that,

but I can 100% assure you they have. I mean, it's interesting that you say a scam. I mean, as you point out, we are a captive audience, aren't we? We can't take our business elsewhere? you know, the best way to deal with a scammer is through the course of the law, isn't it? Or taking away access to a market? So what are we all meant to do as that captive audience to deal with the scam?

Well, I think what we can do now is absolutely make it clear to our MPs, all of our MPs that we object to being treated like this. It's not necessary that government can intervene, that government has powers to do this, the way the companies have conducted themselves, it is in breach of the requirements of their licences. They've not delivered the service they're required to deliver, and they've been taking money out regardless of that. They basically undermine the whole national infrastructure, which is quite a shocking thing to do. That's now obstructing the actual legitimate economy. It's obstructing house building. And the answer to it seems to be

from the current government, give the owners of the companies even more money in the hope that they will actually do something and some kind of benefit will trickle down while we pay once again for work we've already paid for. So I would say, really, object to your MP because there is a movement going on at the moment with Windch Against Sewage Pollution

and a more national campaign of groups, which is called the Sewage Campaign Network, and we are lobbying hard for the, the truth to be given to the public and so that the public can get some decision-making back where it should be in the interest of the country, not in the interest of the shareholders. And of course, all of this, the problems of pollution, can have an absolutely terrible human cost, can't they? And I wonder whether you can just tell us a bit about what seems to have happened, and I'm just having to put that in there for legal reasons, at Dawlish Beach in Devon.

Well actually Ash has very much looked into the dealings of the Prine family and the Prine's family's daughter Heather who died and he has investigated the interaction between the coroner and the family which is depicted in the film so he maybe could say something about that yeah I think the depiction in the film in Dirty Pits is very good It shows how what actually happened to eight-year-old Heather on that day, she walked through sewage that had been spilling. It's, you know, it is connected to Ecoli 0157,

which is that very serious infection of bacteria that she got. That is a route for that sewage to arrive. There was not an adequate investigation done. I've looked at what happened. What seems to me to have happened has been highly, highly distorted version of an investigation that looked away from the obvious causes of sewage pollution, and therefore, at the moment, you have Southwest Water saying there's no connection with them. Okay, there wasn't anything proven at the time,

but there was enough information provided for the coroner to make very strong recommendations about ultraviolet treatment of sewage and signposting and alarming the public and warning the public to avoid this sort of pollution. So it is really serious and tragic and the more that we're looking at that, people are coming forward since dirty business. More people are coming forward with stories

that sound quite similar to the tragic story of ever and also of Ruben Santa, the young man who got the, the disease that has really made his life so uncomfortable. So it's been a very, I think, cathartic experience as well for many people who experienced not only the obstruction from the environment agency that we saw, but also the sort of behaviour that happened around infections of people that happened before and after Heather's death.

There's another aspect to that as well that isn't covered in dirty business, and that's antimicrobial resistance. So what people aren't realizing at the moment is that a sewage works is like a big pot of soup of, you know, of everything we excrete, all the bugs and the drugs. And many of those bugs will undergo genetic mutations just like happened with the COVID virus. And some of those will be advantageous to resist the drugs that they're finding and interacting with. And then of course that's getting out into the environment. And one of, again, another thing that people don't know about, if you don't treat through it properly,

microplastics get out into the rivers, then out into the seas. And these bugs with this resistant capability stick to those plastics and then they go out into the ocean and they go out into the environment. So there's potentially something that could explode in the future where we suddenly discover that all. of this anti-microidsistance actually is coming out. It's riding on the back of the microplastics and it's traveling around the world. Or it goes into sewage sludge onto farmland.

You'll get goals as you know when they're cultivating the land. They land on the sewage sludge. They'll picket upon the feet. They'll fly off and they'll transfer it somewhere else. So there's kind of an insidious potential wave of ill health that could result from this antimicrobial resistance. It's such shocking stuff that is detailed in dirty business. Is this government the right government to actually make a real change now? Well, we hoped it would be.

We had limited progress under the Conservative government. They did bring in quite a lot to develop transparency, and that has actually helped us as campaigners to do the job of the regulators, the kind of captive regulators that have been forced. And we're not criticizing a lot of the staff, by the way. A lot of the staff working for the regulators, as you see in dirty business, trying to do the right thing. We're highly critical of the leadership.

But the legislation did allow us to investigate and expose so much. And what we're seeing now with the latest proposal, the government's new vision for water, was based on a report. that was meant to be independent was absolutely the opposite of independent, that was set up by Duffer itself, that then decided that what it needed to do was to make the water industry more attractive to the shareholders, more attractive to the people that are fundamentally behind everything that is wrong with it.

And that's what we're, that was what we're seeing now in the proposals for the new law, the white paper, the new vision for water, making the regulators take a supervisory role. In other words, investing them in in the problems of the water industry and investing their own success in that success. It's so insidious that we resist that entirely. It needs to be gripped. The reasons for the failure are obvious, and this government is turning away from them because of their overt relationship

with huge influential so-called investment funds that are actually really, really good at extracting money from people. Ash Smith and Peter Hammond, And if you want to watch a dramatization that I think everybody involved in it has said is really, really, really good and really truthful and conveys correctly

the input from real people. Dirty Business is on Channel 4. It's three episodes. It's all up there now. It is well worth your time, Jane. You'll get very, very angry and very, very moved, but I really hope it does shift the dial. And of course, you know,

that's exactly what Ash and Peter have wanted for such a long time. So, you know, let's all just make it happen. Yep, quite. Well, thank you very much for the emails and the company over the last week and for bearing with us as we battle our nasal congestion. It's been ghastly in many ways, but we've got through it together.

I do hope that we're clearer in many senses next week. We're not here on Monday because we've got things to do. Sorry about that. But we are back on Tuesday. And we'll be full of Vim and Vigour. Well, we're all a three-day week. We'll be okay. Oh, yeah, yeah.

We're back on Tuesday anyway. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio. Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.