Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Absolutely rocking some sock suspenders (with Jeremy Vine)

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

We've got some cockle-warmers in today's episode... Jane and Fi chat about runaway buses, disco-techs, unsettled trousers, charity shop donations, invasions of rocks, and the dramatisation of Off Air... Plus, broadcaster Jeremy Vine discusses his latest book 'Turn the Dial for Death'. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Friday night trip to the dump That is Rosie Our executive producer She has a woman after our own heart I'll be seeing you there every weekend now You know you don't have to book a slot It was a real tip bit you gave me yesterday Thank you

Yeah it was a chabouche bit For you it was Own it sister That was good Right I'm done Spent Bye then Thursday's podcast on a beautiful spring day

Here in central London Where I don't know Do you think the summer promises good things, I don't know, the weather forecast for the next week or so it's very good here. Today, Jane, I think, is the first day that there isn't that bitter element to the wind. It's still windy in London, but it's not... No, it's not. So I've come to work without a coat on in celebration. God, I mean, I wouldn't have gone that far.

I regretted it. I've got my Mac. As soon as I got to Dahlston Station. Is there a wind tunnel element? Oh, M.G. Well, there's a wind tunnel element. outside our building. It is properly spooky. It's like bloody Siberia out there, isn't it?

It is. That's God's judgment. No. No, of course not. Right, let's move on to a lovely card we've had. Lovely cards. Quick, bring in the lovely card. Try not to make this job too complicated.

No, Naomi, thank you so much, Naomi. She says she loves the show. And she sent us a card over, just a laughing, slightly older lady. I would say she was guffawing in that image. She's got good teeth. She's got very good teeth. I mean, I don't know who is the photograph

It doesn't say It's from a multi-pack Okay, Naomi And the card is made in China I know it on the back anyway I'm not sure if this will make the book club Well, it won't but it's a good tip But my teenage children gave this book to me for Christmas

She sent us a copy of Caroline Creado-Perez's book Invisible Women Exposing Data Bias In a World Design for Men And she says, I just thought it was really fascinating There's some shocking data in here on the lack of safe, clean toilets across the world and the cost of all this on all levels. And also she notes on page 77 women's pensions data, which Caroline does cover in this book. And it is a truth. And we know this. I think we have talked about it before,

that women don't save as much as men into their pensions or women don't have pensions as big as men. But that's because we take time out of the workplace. And even with what the British have now, which is this auto-enrollment, you have to be earning over, I think it's 10 grand a year. And some women, of course, have various jobs that they've had to have over the years because of caring obligations. And they may not earn 10 grand in any of those jobs. Therefore, they're not auto-enrolled in any pension. Therefore, they will in later life be totally reliant on the state pension.

And that won't give you as much as maybe a male partner because you may not have had as much time in the workplace and you haven't made enough contributions. Is that sensible? It makes perfect sense and you are totally right and I think whenever we have this conversation we end up talking about the compound interest and that's the real killer isn't it? You've got to be in it to win it.

Yep. If you've been able to pop 10% of your salary or whatever into your pension fund 20, 30 years ago, you're laughing and if you haven't been able to through no fault of your own and it is working at home raising kids, It is work. Yeah.

And so, yes, and that book, I think we've both read that book, haven't we? There's so much really mind-bogglingly frustrating material in there. I mean, this is not a criticism of the author, but it's just that I don't think, this book I think came out. What year was it published? I'm just trying to work it out. I think it's been out a while. It has been out a while.

And I suspect that some of the statistics might be slightly out of date now. But the broad point remains a really, really powerful one. The world is designed. for men by men and that means that women can lose out. 2019 it came out. So if you haven't read Invisible Women by Caroline Creado Perez

I'm sure you can find a copy. It's stuff in there too about crash test dummies and things like that. So they'll test cars with dummies that are shaped like men as though only men are ever in cars. Well this is what we were talking about yesterday with the lady car so it's not even that much of a joke.

So that seatbelt thing some cars apparently and I've been informed by a friend since discussing it. Some cars do have an ability to slide down the position at which your seatbelt arrives at your shoulder because actually it has been proven that if you're very, very short and you're strapped in by a seatbelt that is built usually, as they are, for a much taller man, your injuries will be significantly more life-changing or life-threatening. So it's a proper, proper safety thing. It's not just... funny because it cuts across your cleavage.

No, it's really important. Naomi, really kind of you to send us a card and a copy of the book. We'll keep it in the office just so we can be frustrated and angry and indignant on behalf of all women. But we appreciate the gesture. We've got some spectacularly good news about rogue bus drivers. Really, really brilliant one comes in from... We've got some cockle warmers here. We do.

From Dr. Tessa Stewart, M.B. B-C. On's M-V-V-E. Phil. It's a lot, isn't it? Well done you, Tessa. I was inspired to write in listening to Jane's bus ride home mid-tube strike and your conversation about the difficulty bus drivers must feel are needing to stick to their route. I'm not from the UK and when I first came over here about 25 years ago from my garp yard and that's how Tessa has spelt it, Gap year. I'd never use public transport before. I realised that sounds mad and extremely privileged, but it was the reality of growing up in a crime-ridden country where everyone drives everywhere. I was meeting some friends in Dublin for a holiday

and was suddenly faced with a dilemma of needing to get from Dublin Airport to a certain youth hostel in Dublin Central. This was pre-smartphones and I was very cash-strapped. I was too nervous and embarrassed to ask how I work out which bus to catch to find my intended location so I just got on the first bus that came my way.

After sitting on it for its entire circular route it was now late at night, one of the passengers must have recognised my terrified expression and asked if I was love. I very grateful explained that I was and gave her the youth hostel address. Dear listener, we know what to expect. She spoke to the bus driver and let him know that this hapless youngster with the oversized backpack was trying to reach a certain youth hostel in Dublin Central,

with the address not being familiar to him. He radioed into his head office and asked them to check where it was. He then proceeded to go off his bus route and drop me outside the youth hostel. Isn't that just fantastic? To this day, I'm still blow. away by his kindness, and you'll be pleased to know, I am now a fully capable public transport user, buses included. Oh, I love everything about that.

It's just joyful, isn't it? Yeah. When you get a story about the kindness of strangers. And actually, we had one the other day. You've been through exactly this with your girls. The age at which they start going out into the world in London to clubs, wherever you live, they'll be going to clubs. Discothex.

Disco-tex. late at night, all of that kind of jazz. The spicier, the better for them. That's what they want to do. We've both been there ourselves, so we completely understand that. My daughter and her friends went to an 18th that was in the middle of somewhere

that I wouldn't really go to myself in the East London environment. And they tipped up at the wrong place, and they were a little bit awry as to where the right place was going to be for their party. And it was, you know, it's a rough and ready part of town. And a bouncer on the door of one of the other clubs there obviously saw them. Yeah.

And motioned them over. And he got them to stay in the lobby of his club while he ran round the corner to find the place that they were meant to be at. And then showed them all how to get there. And I just wanted to go back and find that man and say, you have no idea. How much of a difference you made. how heartening it is to hear stories like that. And actually all the girls were fantastically grateful and they wanted to find him again to say thank you.

So, you know, our world is full of stories of what goes wrong. That's what makes it to the news, isn't it? So sometimes stories like this about what goes right and well worth amplifying. They really, really are. I mean, also, I just want to say, Tess, I totally relate to the feeling that you needed help but couldn't quite bring yourself to ask for it.

Haven't we all been there? Yes, and at that age, you are pinned, pinned to your seat with the embarrassment of not being able to properly cope with a situation you find yourself in. Yeah, I mean, I really, really relate to that. I'm sure everybody will. Tessa, Dr. Tessa, thank you so much for telling us about it. Let's lighten the mood with charity shop donations from Bev. When she was in the sixth form, my daughter Katie volunteered in our local North London Oxfam shop. The manager gave her some donated clothing to sort into three parlours.

sales. Good quality, fashionable clothing goes here, he said, ready to be steam cleaned before we put it on our shelves. Anything that's really tattie and not suitable for selling, we bag up over there for scrap. And the rest, as Katie, that gets sent to the shops up north, he said. Right, thank you very much indeed, Bev. I'm sure that wouldn't happen now, but it's a slice of life. We're very grateful. Oh, quick mention here. We were talking about the book club book. And Rose in Kings Heath, Birmingham, and she says, yes, the bin men are still on strike here. God.

We send our apologies. That must have been going on now for well over a year. Well over a year. Yeah. If we do receive some free olifactory pleasing disinfectants from M&S, we'll send it to you. Maybe we should. I've got fun memories of the Sainsbury's in Kings Heath, Rose. It's where I used to go for my weekly shop as a student when I was a vegetarian, so I'd buy a loaf and some dairy leave.

and that would be actually maybe a tomato if I was feeling that I wanted to go a little bit into the world of veg. Is it veg? No, it's a fruit. Don't start that. Oh God, yes, sorry. Anyway, Rose is in Kings Heath.

If you're looking for recommendations for short stories, my five-star recommendation, and I think I could do this for you, I don't know about you, is normal rules don't apply by Kate Atkinson. Spooky Tuesday. So I read that email this morning and ordered it straight away. Really?

Yeah, from the great big second-hand warehouse. Is that a decision then? Oh, no, it doesn't have to be a decision at all, but I didn't, it's not the own email that's recommended that. Okay, well, that's even better. She's one of my favourite writers, and I could do her short stories. Yeah, I mean, I think we should really go through that list, though, because there are some very interesting ones on there,

which might not have got quite as much welly as these huge ones. The other one that I ordered was Curtis Sittenfeld's one, because that sounded glorious too. So why are you smiling? So that sounded really horrible. We thought we stitched this up earlier. Why are you smiling? Because James said she'll only do it if it's Kate Atkinson.

Well, I don't think that's really in the spirit. Let's see whether we get any emails on this subject over the next couple of days. Yes, we'll go through the list. Let's try and be democratic. But Rose, thank you. And Jane will read what she's told. Yes, in the end, of course I will. Yeah.

I like the very early sedent. suggestion we had about the series of short stories about Italian women. And I thought that really tapped into something about so many of our listeners who are abroad as well. It was about Italian women living outside of Italy, wasn't it? And I think our correspondent said they were quite spicy. Yep, which I don't know whether that's a plus or a minus. I don't want to be any more excited than I usually am. This is in Walthamstow, the Republic of Walthamstow. Welcome, Comrade. greetings to you all. I thought you might enjoy a few things that have happened to me recently that tie into current off-air themes. The other morning I was getting dressed and I chose a rare combo of matching pants and bra.

My husband looked into the middle distance for a moment and said, that's another reason that I'm glad not to be a woman. I'd have to spend a fortune on matching underwear. I told him about the ongoing off-air discussion of this very theme and he said that I must let you know that he has to have matching pants and socks. So perhaps other male listeners have the same habit. Oh, let us know? Let us know about that. Also, is anybody still wearing those socks suspenders? Oh, there'll be somebody in the city of London, still absolutely rocking that look.

Why? I don't know. I don't really understand braces. Braces on trousers. Is that in the absence of a belt, you go for braces? Yes. So is that because of wearing a belt? would be restricting on the old gut.

Is that what it's... Well, I've always assumed that because men don't have quite such a waste to hit ratio, is it harder for their trousers to settle on something? Are you a man and have your trousers settled? Or are your trousers? Well, trousers are unsettled. I don't think we want the cry to go out

of men show us your unsettled. trousers. That's not what we want to talk to. God forbid. Let's row back on that very quickly. I'd always assume that the suspender, the braces's suspender, was if your, if your stomach was so much larger than your hips that you couldn't really get a belt round it up. So you're just kind of hoisting them up, aren't you? Don't know. Thank goodness we've got a man as our guest on this podcast. Shall we ask Jeremy Vine? It's only Jeremy Vine today. It's a more hardcore broadcasting chat, everybody, I know you love it.

So, oh gosh, do you know what? I do intend to get nerdy with him about radio. Because his crime novels, and he's in to talk about his second crime novel set down in Devon featuring Edward Temis, who is a DJ of a certain age. It's a real love letter to old school radio and a fantastically malfunctioning radio station as well. Any cart stack chat? So there's quite, there's a lot of tech chat, yes. So we will get into the weeds of the Mark 3 desk

versus the Mark 4 desk. And one of our lovely correspondence actually earlier this week, and I think it was Biaata, and I'm sorry if I've got that wrong, Phil, free to point me in the right direction if this was you, was referring to the fantastic two-inch pullback you had to do on vinyl so that when you pulled the fader down, it didn't start. And I hadn't thought of that in years.

No, but it's all coming back now, isn't it? It's isn't it? I spent quite a lot of afternoon reverie in pre-fades. Back with Liz. Also at lunchtime I treated myself to a trip to M&S. I am by nature pretty slovenly as we have a cleaner in Walthamstow. And yet all this talk of cleaning products has given me phomo. I've brought a green tea and eucalypt to spray. Have I gone rogue? It says you don't have to wipe, so that's good news for this undomesticated earthling. and to Fee's question about Andy Kirchel's passing, perhaps we can simply say he was both a talented broadcaster and someone who scared his partner so much he needed a restraining order. I'm doing a course in psychotherapeutic counselling

and one of our trainers encourages us to use this both and, not either or mindset. All best wishes to the off-air gang from Liz. It's a really, really good distinction to make. isn't it? Because one of the things that's so complicated about this world is that good people do bad things and bad people are capable

of good things. And you know, I don't think anyone's got an answer. It's quite troubling that, but it is true. To why that is or how to deal with it. And obviously people in Andy Kirchel's life had to deal with it. So I think that's a really good tip, Liz. And thank you very much indeed. You should know as well, Liz, that the whole

Eminess thing, it started in Walthamstow. That's true. Bromley, Walthamstow, locations are stacking up as being incredibly significant in the history of off air, which one day will be studied. It'll be dramatised.

Yes, it'll be dramatised. Let's bring in a historian. Claire, Claire says, I'm a Second World War historian, leafing around Spittal Fields Antique Market. Now, it's a good one, isn't it? I don't think I've ever been to it, but I know it's a good one. I love the name Spittal Fields. That's East London, isn't it? It is. We can practically see it from here. Can we? Okay.

Well, Claire says she once found a set of letters from a serving nurse to her fella at the front. It even had the photo of her that he must have kept with him. I wouldn't let them stay lost and unloved. So I bought them, spent a bit of time digging and eventually managed to get in touch with the family. I got an email back saying, oh yeah, we sold those as a job lot to a dealer. So it seems that not everyone is as sentimental as me. I mean, I'm with Claire there. It's a little heartbreaking to do all the hard work. Reunite those artefacts, those little bits of personal history with relatives, only to be told, yeah, all interested. On jewellery, I was lucky enough to trace the Polish woman who'd inherited the necklace, bracelet and bangle, once belonging to the first woman to serve Britain as a female special agent,

who I was writing about at the time. It was in the second one. World War. Incredibly generously, she invited me to try the jewellery on, so I had an extraordinary moment of wearing this coral necklace next to my own skin and a beautiful gold bracelet that folded up into a cube, but I couldn't get her wooden bangle over my knuckles. That woman was as fierce as a lion, but as slight as a little bird. Her name was Christina Scarbeck or Christine Granville. It's such a privilege and often a real adventure researching these stories. Well, Clare, it is a privilege. You're absolutely right. And what a wonderful thing that you were able to try that jewell that jewell. And we should know that name, shouldn't we? Well, she had two names because of her

line of work. Christina Scarbeck, Christine Granville. We salute you. Isn't it interesting that some history doesn't want to be found? I don't think we think about that enough, do we? No, I don't think we do, actually. No. This one comes in from Rabina. Apologies if somebody else has already informed you of this. I listen a week behind. saving them up for my commute. So welcome to the present. Well, her present. Yeah, but we're way off in the future. Yeah. Anything could have happened, Rabina. I heard you mentioned Jasmine Harmon's renovation program. And I wondered if you got to the bit about the infamous orange juice scene on her usual show. And I have a, this is brilliant, Jane. I can't remember which episode it was, but there's a

clip of her sitting down with two buyers before they start filming. And she says something along the lines of, I love orange juice, but this is fake, so we can't drink it. I thought you should know. I mean, you've got to be, you've got to be going some on the budget when you can't buy a carton of concentrated orange juice in Spain. I mean, sure. So what are they, what is it? Just coloured water.

I mean, you're right. How expensive is it? The only thing that I could think of was maybe, you know, those pretend glasses that they have? And they have them on stage, don't they? Which look like they're full and you can drink with them. them because the liquid's just trapped in one small kind of section. Maybe they're those, but that's just so tight. Are you really that tight over there?

But thank you, Rabina. And Rabina actually ends that by saying, I've said this twice, I do apologise, I wasn't sure my Gmail was working, so I've tried again without look. And that tickled my fantasy. Yeah, I do struggle with, as you know, technology is not my middle name, that's variety.

But I just can't handle it. different emails. I have got two separate email addresses, but I never get emails to the one of them at all. Anyway, well then there's my Times Radio email as well, but I don't look at that. No, but I think you got Eve to put an out of office on that. Did I? Permanent out of her mind. Out of her mind. Because there are lots of people in the building who do send us, you know, meeting appointments and stuff like that. I've been to a meeting in years, is that why? Yes, I go to them. Yeah, it's much easier.

Thank you. Tanya joins us with what she describes as a long-standing theory about natural scent. She's in Amsterdam. There's a few cents over there, aren't there? Let's be honest. What do you mean? The idea, this is Tanya's theory, is that we all give off a very subtle natural scent, apparently from around the collarbone area.

Now, other people pick up on this without really consciously being aware of it. It's not something you can actually smell, if that makes sense. I think I'm with you, Tonya. Supposedly, and this is a theory she picked up a while ago, she does explain that, this plays a role in attraction, so we're drawn to people whose genetic makeup is quite different from our own, and obviously in evolutionary terms that would give any offspring a better shot at good health. It also ties into the notion that even without knowing it, you'd be unlikely to feel attracted to somebody related to you. I've always liked this theory, partly because it seems to explain my own experience.

when I met my husband, who's German, he was wildly not my usual type, and yet I found myself completely, inexplicably drawn to him. Three children later, I'm inclined to think there might be something in it. Thank you, Tanya, for your theory, which, as you acknowledge, you picked up from somebody else a while ago. But it's interesting, isn't it? Well, it doesn't make sense.

It is pheromones, isn't it? Ferramones. Yeah. And I think everybody does have an individual smile. I know exactly what you mean. some people, they don't smell of anything, but they smell good. Yes. If you smell of nothing but still smell good, then you've won one of the lotteries of life. Very much so.

Yeah. But don't forget, we have got our conversation with the wonderful lady talking about scent, which we're putting out next week, aren't we? Next, a week tomorrow. You'll be able to hear that. And tomorrow, you can hear Dr. Nicola Fox, head of science at NASA. She was brilliant, wasn't she? She was great. I thought she radiated because we could see her all the way from NASA. She's in Washington, wasn't she? Didn't she just look like a woman who, I mean, absolutely rightly, had a lot to celebrate?

She just seemed so sort of, she was beaming, wasn't she? She was. She was positivity. Radiating excitement about her specialised subject. And it was so nice to see that, Jane, because Artemis II's been an unqualified success. And let's just leave it there. I mean, it's just great, isn't it? They set out to do something.

They've done it. nobody died and that's quite an important thing in the space missions and she was telling us because we talked about yesterday didn't we people who feel that there's too much money being spent on something that isn't bringing great benefits to all of us so we did pop that question to her and she answers it absolutely brilliantly I didn't realize that memory foam was to do with research and detail that's been gathered in space and we talked about aliens as well well she hasn't given up has she

No, she's got a very, very, very open mind. And NASA has, is working on, I think, a habitable world's observatory. So basically trying to find a location where some sort of life might exist, possibly have a higher quality than the individuals who roam this earth. Well, it's such an interesting thing to think about, isn't it? That I think in our minds, because we are quite arrogant as a species, we do like to depict other worlds as being, you know, very, very different to ours and a bit further down the food chain.

I mean, isn't Project Hell Mary about a rock? It's about a rock. But I was just thinking, if you are out there and if you're a rock and you're listening to this, if you're like rocky, not all humans look like Ryan Gosling, so don't get your hopes up. I mean, I wonder whether they'll all be coming now, because they've seen Project Hill Mary out there. Well, the astronauts always are a good-looking mob, aren't they?

tend to be really. And the four who went up on Artemis too. All very attractive. Very appealing people. And, yeah, Ryan Gosling is a heightened form of planet Earth's males. But wouldn't it be great if there is another planet that has life on it, which is just so much more advanced. And everyone's getting on with each other.

And they're not bombing each other. And they're not doing that because, you know, some people like to say that my God's better than your God and all of that type of stuff. we might actually be quite far down the food chain instead of at the top of it as we like to imagine Louise is a Senko teacher in a primary school and was interested to hear one of your listeners describing how their dog had been visiting school

as part of the read-to-dogs programme. We've done that in our school it's about giving children the chance to read to the dog with no fear of criticism, correction or questions. The dog often listens with its eyes closed and the child is often to be seen cuddled up and reading happily. The children may find reading difficult to learn or lack confidence and don't have the opportunity to read aloud much at home. For some, they may be having an

emotionally difficult time and a few minutes with a warm and non-judgmental companion can give them a break from their difficulties. Research that Petsa's therapy has done has shown that many children do make accelerated progress with their reading so it can have academic as well as emotional benefits. I think every school should have one. So if you have a placid and cuddly dog, please do think about going through the process of getting it past as suitable for this wonderful volunteer role. Louise, that is brilliant. Thank you very much indeed for responding to our curiosity

about dogs in schools. And of course, I mean, cuddled up with a really lovely, great big dog. You would feel that that's an audience that would give you confidence. Yes, that sounds like a wonderful place of safety. Amy, thank you for this, Amy. You're keeping me company during the seemingly endless night feeds with my 11-week-old baby girl who's called Nancy. Well, I hope Nancy's absolutely thriving, Amy.

Your discussions about school dinner puddings. Great name. It is a good name. Made me smile, she says. I was never a huge fan of school dinners back in the day, apart from the weekly jam sponge and custard, the sogier and stickier, the better. When I was in hospital after having Nancy at the beginning of February,

I was just a bit too happy to see that jam sponge and custard was on the NHS menu. I blame the hormones, and sleep deprivation. It tasted just like it did at school. The lady who came round to take the orders on the ward every day started to predict what I was going to have and by the time we were discharged, I'd had five portions.

Well, that is a time in your life when you absolutely need to feed yourself up. And jam sponge and custard is just the dish to do it, I would imagine. If any of your listeners are currently in hospital and fancy a taste of nostalgia, courtesy of the NHS, I'd recommend it. Thank you for keeping me a company and trying to help me keep awake. I've got a refluxy baby upright at 5am after being fed.

Oh gosh, I mean that's a bit, it can feel like such a long haul, Amy. It will come to an end and Nancy will be way, way beyond reflux. And as I was saying the other day, investigating dishes that haven't yet to be, haven't even been invented in this country, like ramen, which I'm slightly obsessed by because I really don't like it, but my offspring absolutely can't get enough of the stuff. and you know it's hard to believe now but Nancy will be devouring a whole world of wonder before you know it

Amy does say my heart goes out to Theo's mum and I wish her all the best in the future with having a sibling for Theo and her older child I had a complicated pregnancy with my oldest daughter and we appreciate how incredibly lucky we were to have her arrive early but safe needing nearly two months in the neonatal unit and several subsequent hospital stays in her first year

I spent my latest pregnancy riddled with anxiety which stole my ability to enjoy and celebrate any of the milestones which come with a typical pregnancy. So I really hope that Theo's mum, that was Sarah, can find a way to balance the inevitable worry with hopefully celebrating the safe arrival of her next baby. I'll be thinking of her. Amy, thank you very much and lots of love to you. And congratulations on Nancy's birth.

Right, final one from me. This is about Jacinda Arden, Kea Aura, Jane and... Fee, you were commenting recently about Jacinda shifting to Australia. I must be upfront and confess I'm not a Labour voter. However, I have sincere deep admiration of Jacinda. From the elite left, she's proven herself to be an outstanding person. How she managed herself through her shock and sudden shift to become New Zealand Prime Minister of pregnancy, the Christchurch massacre, the turmoil of COVID, running and leading a country. It must be admired. She showed remarkable resilience, fortitude, love and honour in the way that she's

served and she deserves to move wherever she wants to. So she's gone to Australia, hasn't she? Unfortunately, by the time her service ended in New Zealand for various reasons, she wasn't at all popular here. I can't imagine she would have been able to live easily. She was too well-known and too controversial. She and her beautiful family would not have been able to achieve any sense of normality or peace. I hope in time that she'll return though and enjoy the country I know she loves. And in regard to the brain drain of Kiwis to Australia and vice versa, this has been happening for years. The only difference is that perhaps there are fewer Australians moving here now, I'm not sure, it used to balance out. To quote a 1960s, New Zealand Prime Minister,

the Honourable Robert Muldoon on the shift of Kiwis to Australia, he remarked it's a win-win, it raises the IQ of both countries. Smiles, joy. It's a good life. It's a good life. B.S. Love Your Show. So your YouTube podcast. YouTube, we are on the YouTube every Monday. Well, not every Monday. If there's a bank holiday, we're not. Well, we're available on a Monday, aren't we? Not any other day of the week. I mean, we do work a horrendous four-day week, we don't even have half-day closing on Wednesday anymore. I've written to you often, says Joy, especially when you were giving away your bag, unless I missed out.

And he'd tucked away. I even offered to come home. over to the UK to collect one. Well, there's no need to do that. And in fact, our executive, executive producer and the person who runs the whole podcast empire here at Times Towers, they're having a meeting about merchandise, only tomorrow. Meeting about merchandise, that's brilliant, isn't it?

It's not a phrase that I ever thought when I sat in Grafton House learning my shorthand, that I would say. Do you know what, I did some shorthand the other day? It's a remarkably pleasing little thing. Yeah, it's a wonderful thing to be able to do. It's actually quite useful, isn't it? Well, it's very useful.

Because if you want to write something down in a busy household where lots of people are reading lots of things and I'm a bit forgetful and I'll leave my notebook all over the place, it's very handy to be able to write it in code. Who's she really working for? Well, we'll never know. Let's bring in the guest because he's a biggie. Jeremy Vine is very busy.

He's got his lunchtime radio two show, his morning channel 5 show, his celebrity puzzle show and when an election arrives he can be found binding across our screens with what used to be Peter Snow Swingometer. He rides Penny Farthings,

campaigns for safer cycling he's here to discuss his latest crime caper novel number two featuring Edward Temis set down in Devon turned the dial for death which takes us to Devon

in a radio station which is brilliantly dysfunctional neither Jane or I would recognise at all Germany still reeling from a scam we learnt of in the first novel and we rejoined the lives of Edward and his estate agent girlfriend Kim as they investigate another murder with a crossbow. Was it the wife what did it? Hello, Jeremy. I love that.

Could I just sit and listen to that? I would only take issue with the word caper. Caper. Because at some point there is a death. Yes. Well, I don't know people die in capers. No, and when you came in last time to talk about your first crime novel, as I will now be calling it. I think I described it as cosy crime and you did say, well, hang on a minute, Fee, because actually there's some quite macabre stuff that happens and also it deals with the, with the tragedy. It's... Well, yeah, but I think the cozy crime, I don't, I wonder why so many writers get upset when people say cozy crime because to me that communicates instantly a genre. I'm quite happy with that. So my novels are set in Syndmouth, which is cozy, which is where I

spent all the time when my kids were young and we did Bucket and Spade holidays. And I thought, wouldn't it be great to have a murder here? And I'm, so obviously, wasn't that the obvious thought? I mean, we're all thinking about something when we're entertaining the kids. I do think presenters, and you could tell me if I'm right here, they always think what would happen if someone started murdering my audience.

And I was talking to Tony Blackburn, and I said exactly that. And he said, I've never thought about that at all. And so maybe that I'm the only one. But wouldn't you investigate? You wouldn't leave it to the police? If someone rang you and said, look, there's been a murder. We've got some high net worth listeners here at Times Radio. Well, I know that because my wife listens.

Oh, there you go. She can't get her off it. Quality, quality, quality. Seriously. All day long. Okay, I don't think I would actually, Jeremy, and I'm sorry to disappoint you. You wouldn't investigate a murder with one of your own listeners. I'm busy.

Not as busy as you, though. Good Lord. He's in Sidmouth, my hero, Edward Temis, who's, I only shows that name because everyone hears tennis, and they always say, as in Wimbledon, and he says no, and he starts to get angry. It's the call centre name that's the call centre name. that's the problem. You guys have got a chi... Yeah, your names are fine for call centres, aren't they?

Relatively. What's wrong with Garvey? Harvey. Oh, really? Yeah, I get all of that. I met somebody yesterday who was a labour person who came into our studio on Channel 5 and her name was Scarlett Maguire.

You probably interviewed it, right? Do you know how you spell her name? Because I looked... It's Scarlet with two T's, that's the first problem. It's then capital M, small C, small C, capital G, Sorry, two small C's. Capital M, small C, small C, capital G, W I-R-E.

And she's had so many problems with call centres with that. So I thought my presenter could have a problem with his surname, and that's how it starts. I just say lover with a G. It goes to her very well. Yeah. Well, do I get, is it Jeremy with a J or a G? And immediately I'm triggered. There's no one in the world who's Jeremy with a G.

Do you want my head spinning again? It really triggered. I'm trying to read here. Where are we in this interview? Sorry, I've got to talk about the book. Yeah, no, we will come back to talking about the book. Can we just do, because we've had this announcement, only about half an hour ago that Sarah Cox is going to take over.

Literally, I left the building, I saw her. Okay, so was that always going to be the first choice in the building? Oh, in the building, everybody loves her. And she's had an amazing journey, because, of course, she had Radio 1 breakfast, and then came to Radio 2, did the evenings, the afternoons. And I think her drive time shows incredible. It's not overlapping with yours, is it? No, it's not.

So there's no possible problem with me saying it. And I'm guessing she would have been reluctant to move away from it, except that the breakfast show that's the biggest in the world probably is irresistible. So I was just told in a kind of official announcement. That's how we hear everything now. So I had no scoop. I'm so glad it didn't drop while I'm sitting here because I would have been really embarrassed. I think it's fantastic for the station.

it's fantastic for her and as an example this morning I came in they said you can't use your studio because Meryl Streep's in it because she and Anne Hathaway are doing an interview for tomorrow's breakfast show

with Gary Davis and I thought it's kind of different level the breakfast show for Radio 2 it's a showbiz arena and she'll be great I've got an anecdote about going to dinner with Meryl Streep

that I only try and shoehoeing because it really annoys Jane No how many times have you heard it now cannot hear this again No, I'm not going to do it. No, come on, you must. You must do it. No, it was just a PR dinner party. You've got to go full on with this.

No, I'm going to do it very, very brief. It's a PR dinner party and they just wanted it slightly differently. So they invited quite a few broadcasters. James was absolutely livid because she was doing women's out at the time, but they invited Jenny Murray not. That's not. I said it again. I did realize it involved, Jane.

That is hard. Well, it didn't. That was the problem. No. I saw Evan Charles yesterday. Oh my God. It just gets worse, Jeremy. I said, can you explain to me.

when Tony Blair left number 10, they released all the journalists who'd been to Checkers, and it was basically everyone in the world except me, and he was on the list. Well, Jane went with as well. Oh, right. Yeah, so she was at that one. And you weren't at that one.

No, I wasn't at that one at all. Actually, thank you, Jeremy, to say it. Badger pride. That makes me feel a lot better. I don't think it does. Carry on. I want to ask you about Scott Mills, because you said on the day

that it was announced that he had been sacked, that you felt something akin to shock and grief, and I wonder what you feel about it now. Still feel the same. still in the dark, I don't know any more than you, I almost don't want to know more. All I know is he, something happened where the BBC wasn't told the full story. It might have even been an internal communication problem. I don't know.

And as a result, they ended his contract on the day. And it leaves a mystery, which I think can probably only be cleared up by Scott. And he will, I guess at some point say, I guess he's going to resurface and say what happened. But I think the BBC won't ever say any more on it unless they feel they have to challenge his account, which we haven't had yet. You've described Scott as being a very popular person within the building

as well as being popular with the listeners. And, I mean, it's pretty obvious, isn't it, that an awful lot of creative industries, they have a problem with popularity because perhaps it means that you don't go and look at some other stuff if you've got a very, very popular star on your books? I don't think that's the case in the BBC anymore. I think it's almost the opposite.

I think they, okay, with Hugh Edwards, there was a long-running saga that was complicated by him having mental health problems and the criminal part only came in late and so on. But there's always this balance between fairness and transparency and wanting to show the audience and the licence fee payers that the BBC is not top. tolerating any bad behaviour.

And I honestly don't think they do. I really don't think they do. Look at the Jermaine Genas thing. The guy was gone in a cloud of dust. It was just instant. And I think it's probably swung the other way. It's if you misbehave in any way at all, historic or present, you'll be terminated without prejudice.

One more question. Then we're absolutely going to. Yeah, this is a comfortable bit of the interview. Yeah, we're going to talk about the book. But it's a painful thing that Scott, because we did genuinely, and you know I'm telling the truth when I said this. Radio people love radio people. So you guys are radio people. So am I. And radio's got a lot of TV people on it. But when a radio person gets the break for show, in the same way that Sarah has, we all think, yeah. And so we were sad about Scott.

Is he all right? I don't know anything. I've had a text from him. But no, but it was just, you know, slightly perfunctory, understandably, and I don't know any more than that. I'm not, I'm not one of his close circle. I hope so. You did say something about Hugh Edwards that both Jane and I thought was a very clever thing to have noted about him, that he was the only person that you had met who managed to bully upwards. Just explain a bit more what you mean by that. Well, when I was at Westminster, so I've known him for a long time, 30 years, and he was at Westminster with me, and I was a political correspondent.

And all I wanted to do was coming to work and report politics. I wasn't really bothered about whether they hadn't paid me. I would have just still come in, you know. I was just so pleased to be there. I was like a little Labrador jumping. on the death. And one day, the guy he was running the unit, Samir Shah, who's now the chairman of the BBC,

called me in and he said, we've heard ITN are trying to get some of the correspondence to move from the BBC, and we think you might be one of them. And you're paid, is it 42,000? And I said, yeah, I think that's right. Yeah, he said, well, we'd like to move it up a bit. And he said, but can you explain to me why you've

never asked me to move your pay-up? When Hugh Edwards is in here every fortnight, and he's on twice as much. So I said, I never occurred to me. So I thought that's quite an interesting insight. That's the guy. He bullies upwards.

Yeah. Let's just park him. Yeah, please, because it's so awful. Yes, it is. And horrific. It's absolutely awful. You can't even run the moment the BBC announces the death of the queen because that's what he did.

So it's a terrible thing. Yeah, absolutely. And for all of his colleagues, who then found out, as you've said, very late in the day, all about, I think it has been horrendous and for his family too. Parked. Let's talk about your book then. It is so clear

from the second crime, what am I calling it, Jane? No, you can go anything. No, crime not. You can say, it's a who done it. Oh, who done it. But you can say cosy crime. No, I'm not fussy about it. Just not caper. Okay, not caper. What about girkin?

Turn the dial for death. It's so clear. It's a bit of a love letter to local radio. and it's a bit of a love letter to the seaside resort. Yes, it's a love letter to Sinmouth. It's the joy of that connection that you have when someone calls in or I have on Radio 2 and the incredible intimacy of perhaps somebody who's telling you something

they haven't ever told anyone. And this is a very, very dark story to tell, but very soon after I arrived on Radio 2, which is like 22 years ago, we were called, we were discussing sexual assaults and we had a woman ring us in her 70s who said she was raped age 12. And I said, oh, this is terrible.

Who have you told about this? And she said, only you, you're the first. And in that moment, and as this is going back 20 years, I suddenly thought, oh, my goodness, there's a quality of connection with your caller and with your listener where the relationship is really precious on radio, not so much on TV, maybe. TV's a bit more.

I always think TV is squash and radio is snooker. They're very different in that way. So I was trying to celebrate that connection. I was trying to write about the chaos of being on any radio station, probably local radio especially, and you have the old generation, the young generation, all that. And a bit of murder. And a bit of murder.

A little bit of murder. So this starts with, oh my goodness, I had that moment as I looked through the window there. I thought I saw the guy in the cravat walk past the one sitting behind Ollie Robbins at the select committee. He's every way, he's like Zellig. Yeah, we had him on yesterday. Oh, maybe he's still in the building.

It wouldn't surprise me. He's not, but even today. Well, I just saw it walk by. Yeah. He was wearing the same cravat as well. He was on first on our show. Well, yeah. He was...

Has he been on your show too? About a hundred times. Sorry. He was in the audience every day on Channel 5 for five years. That's how I know. It's a lovely guy. Anyway, it starts... Back to the book, Jeremy.

Back to the book. Because my publishers outside, she's going to be so cross with me if we talk about the guy with the cravat. You're not going to shift any copies of this. It starts with a guy lying dead on his back in a white linen suit in a forest with a rose-shaped

blood stain in his chest and he's been shot by a crossbow as you rightly say. And his wife bought the crossbow but she has the perfect alibi. She was in the cinema at the time of the shooting watching a Marvel film except she doesn't like Marvel films. And everyone thinks she did it but no one can prove

it and she comes to my hero, Edward Temes and Kim and Stevie the other two and says I need you to help me clear my name and they embark on an adventure which takes them to a destination they did not expect to arrive at. And yes, so there's murder. There's also radiation.

There's an ampule spilled from a motorbike. And there's... Which has... It's slightly redolent of the Salisbury poison. Well, that was... Yes, that wasn't so much a shed load of radiation, but it did raise the whole issue of whether you could precisely target someone

with a radioactive substance, which is very much part of the book. And it's... funny because I was talking to a radioactive radiation expert guy, professor, who came into radio two, but I wanted to ask him about this whole issue of how can it be that the polonium killers of Litvinenko took this radioactive substance all the way across London to the point where you could track it from Heathrow. They could see the path it took. They drop it in the guy's tea.

The poor man dies. They fly back to Moscow and they're fine. Does anyone understand that? How the radiation is so powerful, but only if you're less than half a centimeter from it. So as long as they keep it in a metal egg cup, they're fine. They put it in the tea and he dies. And I say, I need a substance like that. And we went through a whole load of different things.

He said, to be honest, the only one probably I've got for you is the one that they used. And that's why Putin ended up with polonium 534. I'm not going to correct you. I can't remember the actual. The Salisbury was different. Salisbury wasn't radiation. Salsbury was a nerve agent, Novichok. And then that poor lady called Dawn Sturge is.

picked up the perfume bottle in the park and died. But it has raised that whole thing of radiation as a killer, which I wanted to explore. Yeah, I'm obviously drawn to anything about local radio stations, Jeremy. You've written a whole book yourself about this. And Jane and I've worked across various networks and both started in local radio. And I think there's something that we are going to miss when local radio has gone.

Oh, I hope it doesn't. But it is going, Jeremy, isn't it? It attracts oddballs local radio. It really does. It does. I notice, I just done one of those things when you have a book out or something. You go and do these. What's it called?

Is it GNS? Or it's that thing where you sit in a BBC booth. You both will have done this. And they give you a list of stations. And I think I had 21. And they each have a 10 minute slot. And they cannot go over the 10 minutes or the line just cuts. So the next station can pull you away from the existing one.

and I had that wonderful carousel of BBC local stations and of course with BBC what they're doing to try to cut the costs without hurting things is to combine stations and so they become a bit less local but then the independent sector is a whole other story where they've all gone hard global etc so it's painful and I guess it's the economics of it you just can't sell enough advertising to maintain 24 hour output

or even 12 hours but one of the things that it's going to mean is that there isn't enough through traffic So the person who starts out on local radio and really hones their craft isn't going to end up on national radio. Well, that's the one advantage. So you can stay in position.

Yes, you've alighted on the one advantage of it. But it's sometimes we get, for example, we have, I don't agree necessarily that there aren't these people who will suddenly just come through because once or twice we've said, like we had a thing, a roller coaster, hit a deer tragically in a national park.

The deer want, God only knows, why the deer running around a roller coaster. So we said to the reporter, this local radio reporter, can you do a ride on the roller coaster just to illustrate it, whether or not it's hit by a deer. And, I wish I could remember his name, but he went, as soon as the thing went over the cusp, over the top,

he just basically screamed his head off for two minutes. You couldn't even hear. And of course, he said, I'm really sorry, messed that up. We said, that's brilliant. It's absolutely brilliant. And then you get the guy in Liverpool who calls us, and he's got, his name is, I wish I've got to get these names. It's Liam, I think.

And he had had a situation where in COVID, the doctor rang him and said, you need to come urgently for your vaccine because your BMI is 42,000. Now, he's a 21-year-old guy, six-foot one. He's pretty fit, you know. And he's got no idea, he's got some terrible underlying health condition, but he goes because 41,000, it sounds like you're going to be dead. And it turns out that when they measured his height in a routine examination some months ago, Instead of writing six foot, they wrote six millimeters. And they just divided the millimeters by his weight.

So we'll lose all that if we lose local reporting. Yes. And also, on a more serious note, we have already lost scrutiny of the court system, of council meetings, of all of the places where big stories start. News is always a local story before it becomes national news. It's somebody. local stories. Yeah, I mean, I started on the Coventry Union Telegraph, which is the most incredible place to work. It had 75 journalists in 1986. It now has, I think, seven. And the first

story I did was a court story where a man was accused of running up to a woman in the park and shouting, I want sex. And she fought him off with a shoe. And I was 21. I took my copy to the news editor and I put it in front of him. It says, you know, a Coventry caught her today, how a man ran up to a woman in the park and shouted, I want sex. And he just put a line through it. He said that's not a story because everyone wants sex. He said the story is that she poured him off with a shoe. So in that moment, I learned, you know, how to position the first paragraph of a story. And also, crucially, I was in the courtroom.

Isn't that amazing? They sent this 21-year-old reporter to go and watch this guy plead, well, be found guilty in 1986. And they wouldn't be in there now. And look what's happened to you now, Jeremy. You've got literally all the jobs. No, come on. We are just interested in your daily schedule. So I know that last time we spoke, you explained that you managed to write, I think, 500 words a day.

400. 400 words a day. Well, you're going to do, I can happily tell me, is it the same schedule as I had a year ago? Because that would be incredible if it's standing up. Was it 4.30 I got up? It was 430. Okay, yeah, so I was same. You would sit on the end of your bed and do 400 words before peddling off to your first job, which is at Channel 5.

I now realize why it's called a laptop. Yeah, that's what I do. And I do it. Yeah, well, peddling off. I mean, I have to get my, you know, have a shower and whatnot and, you know, all that. And then get on my bike, go to Channel 5. Do the brilliant Channel 5 show, which I'd love, love, love. Which has got very similar DNA to Radio 2, actually.

And then over to Radio 2 for the joy of radio, which we love. And then at 2 o'clock, they say Jane and Fee are expecting you. Yeah, and you pedal over here. And I peddled over here, yeah. And it's obviously a big tube strike day. I know you're very national, but it is a big old gridlock day today. and my wife says, be careful because the traffic's terror. So you're on the bike?

Yeah, of course, yeah. But you can't be knocked down by traffic jam. That's the great advantage. The thing that's dangerous is an empty road. Very true. So I was safe coming over here because all the cars were stationary, although, of course, great sympathy with less so these days. But yeah, I think and some anger, driver anger, I would say.

And it's a hot day. If an alien was going to come down to Earth and meet you and you've got to introduce yourself and just say in one word what you do, What I do? What you do? Or who I am? Well, both things. What's your identity?

Because you've also got the celebrity puzzling thing, haven't you? You got your political swingometer going when the election's firing. You got your cycle safety campaigning. Who are you, Jeremy Vine? Well, I'd probably just say dad. But when I got a kind of an honorary degree at my old university and the guy said to me, the good news is you don't have to make a speech. And of course, I was like appalled by this.

And I then thought what I'm going to do is I'm just going to make a good. I'm going to make the shortest speech ever. I'm going to actually get the microphone. When they say it's Jeremy, not allowed to do a speech, but I've got to do it in two words. I've got a thousand students there, and I'm thinking, like,

what do I say? And sum up the whole of life in two words. And I think the two words seize love. That's all I could think of. Well, that's very profound. And it's where I'm going to end the interview. I thought you would. I was hoping for a Jane Garvey question there.

Are you building up for one? No, Helen has just sent us an image of a man called Jeremy, and it's spelt with a G. And he played for Newcastle. No, he played for Chelsea as well. He's caused a lot of problems that guy. Yeah, well, you told a lie. You told a bare-faced lie.

But anyway. Okay, take this one to Charle of Fine. Jeremy, it's been lovely to see you. Thank you very much indeed for coming in. Turn the Dial for Death is out now. Jeremy Vine, available on literally every single platform available to mankind. And the book is called Turn the Dial for Death. Is it, is it a, you know, I haven't read the world.

book because it was your responsibility. Can I say? Thank you very much. It's quite all right. No, but is it, is it frightening? It's not frightening, but Jeremy makes the point as we touched on in the interview and I'm going to leave that in there, but if we didn't touch on it in the interview, I've put that we touched on it in the interview because we're actually doing this bit before we've done the interview and we'll see whether or not it's worth staying in. Back with logic. As we do. He touched on. What was the question?

Is he frightening for me? I'm sorry. I'm quite scared now. I know that much. Really bad things happen. And in his first book, you know, there was a proper kind of tragedy. And we meet a character in this book,

you know, who is still very much affected by what happened to her and the lead character. You know, we'll always have this family tragedy living alongside him. But it's a tricky one because it's definitely not, it's not dark, dark crime. So it's not Joan Nesbo, it's not Karen Slaughter, but it's not deliberately comedic like I think Carl Hyerson is. So it is straddling something else, actually.

But you can definitely read it knowing that there won't be, what I would say, completely unnecessary description of death or injury in it. Gore, you know, that type of stuff. Thank you. I'm reassured. I mean, how these fellas in the media find the time in the day? Well, it is quite unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, it is all I can do, you know, when I get home is to crack open a non-alcoholic beer

and catch the tail end of escape to the country. We are similar in that respect. I get in, I get through the front door. I eat nuts. I'll probably, and a couple of slices of cheese. And then it's time for dinner, and then I have a bath, and then I go to sleep. Yeah, me too. I should find more time to write a best-selling book.

I just... Do you want, Jane, I can't be asked. Fair enough. We'll have a good couple of days. It's Jane and Fee at Times Talk Radio. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.