Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Actually, just call an ambulance - Professor Tim Spector

Episode Date: April 17, 2023

Jane is back, but has she brought Fi any presents from her holiday? Who can help Jane fix her satellite? And can a cool, successful man ever be a keeper? They're joined by co-founder of Zoe, Professor Tim Spector to discuss the future of food and keeping your gut healthy. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Welcome, everybody. We're back.

Well, you're back. I'm back. I was here all the time. Julie has emailed to say, hope you had a fab holly bob. Don't say that, please, Julie. I cannot stand holly bob, holly bogs. Holly pops.

Holly pop. None of those. But apart from that, I like Julie a lot. Although, I'm not sure about this bit of advice she's got here. You must indulge Fee with her treat of choice immediately, as I think she had quite a hard time in your absence. I can't really read any more

of that email out, but thank julie and it's you sound like a very sound woman but there's no way i'm buying a confectionery on the first day back no maybe later in the week come on maybe all i wanted was a twirl that's all i wanted they didn't have any twirls was it they've always got twirls i tell you what they do have they always have twirls and they always have a tonics. Yeah, well, I think that's because neither of them are particularly nice. Well, exactly. But they're quite a reasonably priced.

But they're not cheap. No, a twirl is quite reasonably priced. So tomorrow, come in with a twirl, please. Come on. I'll see what I can do. I really don't like what a funny aftertaste twirls. Anyway, I had a week off. You were here.

But you also also did you talk last week about how you've had covid yes yeah and we can just park i knew you wouldn't be sympathetic i am no i am sympathetic no i am sympathetic because when you went home ill on i think it was the tuesday of the week before yeah um you really you genuinely looked ashen no you did and even i felt sympathy. In fact, I texted to ask if you'd got home properly. That's how much I cared. But also, I should say what's interesting about COVID is you've had it now.

This is the third time you've had it. I've only had it once. And you said that you thought the symptoms were different each time you had it. So they are morphing. Is it now? Because it's now been quite some time since you last had a vaccination, I guess. Yes. And we did speak to an immunologist on the programme, didn't we, last week, just about where Covid is at the moment. And he was fascinating because he basically said we don't entirely know because obviously it's not a notifiable illness anymore and not everybody is testing for it. not a notifiable illness anymore and not everybody is testing for it and although it has gone in the direction that it should have gone in which is to become more like the common cold in terms of how

we can all deal with it so you no longer think oh my god I've got Covid I might die yeah but then the bad side of it is we haven't kept track of all the variants and things that are changing and the different symptoms so we're in a very strange place. He wasn't entirely convinced we were in the right place at the moment. Well, that's not terribly reassuring. I wonder whether anyone listening who's just been through COVID, maybe for the first time, they can just let us know how it's been in this variation

and how it differs from maybe other times when they've had it. And also I'd be interested to hear, I mean, obviously not in excessive detail, just about what you kind of decided to do about it. Because I only knew that I had COVID, so I was meant to be going to pick my kids up and I would have seen my mum and I don't want to give it to her

because she's old and she's on her own. But I think most people think I might have COVID and nobody's got a test kit anymore. They can't really be bothered to get one. You don't have to test anyway. So I'd be quite interested in how people treat it. And hence it spreads a test kit anymore. They can't really be bothered to get one. You don't have to test anyway. So I'd be quite interested in how people treat it. And hence it spreads. Hence it spreads. OK, well, because I've got elderly parents that I visit,

I do keep tests and I do test usually before I go. But in fact, I thought I had it the last time I went to see my parents and I woke up very early in the morning to test. And part of me was, I'm not saying I was, no, I can't say i was hoping to be positive but i did feel quite quite ill and it would have been well i could just have taken to my bed legitimately anyway it was it was completely negative and the next day i just felt fine so i don't know what that was i tell you one thing the immunologist did say that really pulled me up

short uh was just we've also really really stopped taking note of what's happening in other countries and I cannot remember the last time that I've seen or read a report about how India is dealing with the latest Covid variant or anywhere else and do you remember that feeling and it was quite a brief feeling right at the beginning of Covid where there was a moment I think where you had a sense that maybe there would be a global response, that we'd all be in it together and we'd all sort something out together. It didn't last. It didn't last.

But I think we've gone back to somewhere even worse than we were before, where we were almost deliberately ignoring what's happening in other parts of the world in terms of individual health. Because it's all just too scary, Jane. It's a natural reaction. There's only so much parts of the world in terms of individual health. Because it's all just too scary, Jane. It's a natural reaction. There's only so much any of us can take. I was reading an article on the BBC website yesterday about the suffering of the women of Yemen.

And there's this god-awful civil war there that's been rumbling on for years, largely unreported, unnoticed, barely referred to. And I read it in a slightly dutiful way, thinking I ought to engage with this. And at the end, you just think, oh my God, why do I complain about anything? It really did make me think,

but almost within about half an hour, I was bellyaching about something totally irrelevant and ridiculous. But you're right, we should think more globally. Anyway, let us know how you are. It's a very open question. How are you all? Jane and Fee at Times.Radio.

If you've had COVID recently, how was it for you? Right, we can get on to those. A couple of other really interesting emails. Can we do the one about the ladies in a muddle about friendships? Yes, before we get to that, because we will take our listeners' minds with us on that one, I'm sure, can I just say a huge thank you to everybody who has emailed in with their comedic book recommendations.

So I've done a little bit of collating and the one that comes up the most is The Rosie Project by Graham Simpson who is an Australian novelist and we do like an Australian novelist don't we, Jane? And the other one is Anything, by the looks of it

by John Boyne. One of the recommendations is The Heart's Invisible Furies which is just such a brilliant book title. So I've ordered both of those and I'd like to say an enormous thank you for people responding to that plea. So we'll see how we go on those.

And I took you up on the recommendation of Blue Lights on BBC iPlayer. Yeah. Brilliant. Unfortunately, there's been a little bit of domestic turmoil. My neighbour's extension has blocked out my satellite dish, so I cannot currently receive television. How are you still...

Sorry. Wait a minute, everybody. Wait a minute. I know what you're saying. How is Britain's leading TV critic? No, is it 2023 is it 1983 i knew you'd ask that satellite dish i don't understand it either are you watching on b sky b it's the square one you know alan sugars

no it's i don't understand it i don't understand it. I don't understand it. I'm Pac-Man, I'm an Amstrad. What's going on? OK, so you should just be plugged into broadband. No, I am for that. So this is the... For the last... It's been really quite soul-destroying. I don't know how you even get here every day. No, well, that is a minor miracle

when I do emerge from the underground. I'm always pleasantly surprised by myself. Oh, you are? That's good. I've been watching a lot of Netflix, because that I can get. I'm sorry, Jane. OK, so you can't get the BBC without a satellite? No, I can't get no terrestrial telly at all. But if you're getting Netflix, you can get the BBC.

You must be able to. If you've got broadband... I've got broadband. Well, I can get it on my iPlayer but not on the telly but then just plug just plug your

your laptop into your TV you'll have to come round and sort it you'll have to come round and sort it I can't do that on the way home I'm going to buy you an HDMI cable oh thank you very much

and then you just plug your laptop into your TV and it'll come up there but I've got a tiny laptop that won't work will it oh look let's call Chris Stoke-Walker I've got a tiny laptop. That won't work, will it? Oh, look. Call Chris Stoke-Walker.

I should just call an ambulance. I'm going to get inside of it. It kills me. The whole point is that then you plug your very small laptop into your big TV so you can watch it on the TV. You know, my TV is not that big. Okay, right. Anyway, it meant that I watched the absolutely awful, absolutely disgusting Obsession.

Have you seen it? With Richard Armitage. The young woman from Habit Valley. It's very sordid. Don't watch it. I have, but don't watch it. Right, let's get on to the very, very interesting email about friendship. OK, do you want to read it?

I'm currently in a muddle, says Anonymous, about friendships, and after listening to your interview with Elizabeth Day, it made me reflect on my situation even more. I had an excellent group of friends, and we partied around London and had a pretty wild time. Everyone was different, but it just worked. I thought we'd be friends forever. But what's happened since kids and grown-up life and had a pretty wild time. Everyone was different, but it just worked. I thought we'd be friends forever.

But what's happened since kids and grown-up life is that I've somehow been left behind. I didn't marry a cool, successful man, just a nice, normal man from outside the group. And I went to work for a charity after a couple of years in finance, so we have a pretty modest life. Maybe we just don't fit anymore. I notice very much that we don't get invited out and we only really see people for big events. And if we are the instigators over the last seven years since I had my kids, it's got worse.

We've had to decline a lot as we don't have the funds and people have moved on. And I am recently facing into this and feeling, well, rejection, sadness and confusion. Are we just not cool or successful enough? First of all, I'd like to say to Anonymous that never mind the cool, successful man. You can trust us both on this one. They tend not to really be keepers. But a nice, normal man. That sounds great, doesn't it? Yes, it does. and I like the fact that you have chosen a job because you believe in it. Yes also good. You're working for a charity after a few years in finance and I suppose what what it's easy to say from the outside looking in is that you don't need friends like

that. No except that. Except it's really hard to lose touch with a whole group of friends in your adult life. And I would completely understand feeling rejected and sad and confused by it. But I wonder two things. Are you sure they're not all just so busy they're doing exactly the same thing to each other? Are you sure that it's only you because sometimes friendships do drop off especially in those years where people start having kids and you know all have very big jobs or need to look after elderly parents or whatever it is but it looks as though the group do come together if Anonymous and her partner instigate something. Yes.

But are you sure that that isn't happening, if you sort of mean when you're not around with the others? Yes, that could well be happening, but I'm not sure that's going to comfort them to think that they're all doing it without them. No. And I suppose the other thing I'd say is, is there somebody in the group that you could just ask and just say, is it it us and if it is us how comfortable do you all feel about that about it and yeah if you're not going to be happy or content with that group when you see them why would you want to see them um if it's just going

to make you unhappy i don't know it's it is a tough one and i think you have to accept that as you get older you do even your best friends who once seemed like they'd be your best friends forever, life happens to them as it happens to you. And occasionally you do, as you say, you do drift apart. And then maybe later in life, you might discover each other again. Yeah. And don't you think as well when you have kids, so it's interesting that it's seven years since you had your kids. so it's interesting that it's seven years since you had your kids so presumably you've got more than one and they're both in primary school i think you get incredibly drawn into that primary school oh you can really do well and it becomes almost impossible to see your previous friends at weekends but then when the children your kids decide your social life for you but you're right when you get older sometimes those primary school friends just drop off very quickly. Secondary school is very, very different, isn't it,

in that sense? But I think it's probably a very, very common experience. And Anonymous, I'm really glad you've drawn our attention to it, because I think it's also fair to say that when other people have more money than you, that can be difficult. That just is difficult, isn't it? And we don't talk about it very much. Hugely difficult. And when they're choosing completely different things, which will mean a different postcode to live in, a different type of house to buy, a different place to go on holiday with, sometimes so stratospherically different from your own. Yeah. I think that that is tough, isn't it? And that's exactly the kind of time in life where all of that shakes down, isn't it?

There is a classic British awkwardness about accepting too much hospitality from people who in the end you actually come to really dislike. For being generous. For being really generous. Yes, because they can. Because they go get them! Obviously, I don't feel too bad about accepting huge amounts of hospitality from anyone who's got a chateau in the family have you ever been dropped by somebody because you're not kind of rich enough

and flash enough to be in their group um no I mean no as a single person you do notice that you don't sometimes you don't get invited to stuff that's gone on because it doesn't involve you. You sort of mean. But that's nothing to do with money, is it? But that's just an honest answer. Yeah. I mean, I've got a group of friends from school that I have known since we were 11. And, you know, our circumstances are very different. They are very different. I'm hugely fortunate in some ways, but others in the group have got incredibly successful long term marriages, partnerships that have certainly outlasted any of mine. So I don't know. How do you how do you compare? It can be a tricky one. But I do I feel for our correspondent because I think it's it's very it can you can be made to feel very small by people you thought really cared about you and definitely that kind of paranoia that comes in when you think that everybody else is getting

together and you're being excluded and actually paranoia is too strong a word and it kind of puts it back on you and i don't really mean that i think sometimes groups of friends don't realize they're doing that but it's bloody horrible yeah and it's just like being at school you never change you know that is the bottom line. You don't change. Yep. We're here to tell you that that insecure bundle of nerves that lurked around 40 years ago will still be with you forever. Although Saturn is returning to you in its second phase, isn't it?

So it bodes well for the next 12 months, actually. Yep. Can I just do one which is I hope it's going to throw something out as well. I think it's probably anonymous so let's keep it that way. Hi, Joan of Feet. I've written once before a chaotic ramble about UTIs and listen to you always.

I need some advice. I'm in a long-term relationship and wondering if I should leave it. I'm 31 and my partner of five years is a kind, loving, intelligent man. He's committed to our life and always supports me. When I'm with him in our flat, I often feel secure and sure of what we have. I'm close with his family and he's close with mine. We are on the cusp of making big life choices such as applying for a mortgage, talking about kids. However, I travel with work a lot and when i'm away i often lose sight of this

security and imagine other lives with other people this often turns to dread of coming home because i feel like i've been emotionally unfaithful and like i can't trust my own thoughts but i find the independence of traveling and working with inspiring people exciting and intoxicating i know that I love my partner, but I also sometimes have a strong urge to start all over again. Oh, yeah, but you have that strong urge precisely because you've got the steak at home. You can think about having a burger when you're on your shovels.

You're going home to a nice bit of rump. Is that the advice that you're giving out? Well, it kind of is. Essentially, says our correspondent, I feel like I have two brains, one that has found a wonderful partner and one that wants to be free. Is there anything you can offer to help? Well, two brains, I think. Do you remember that politician who was known as 12 brains? No, that was David Willits and he was known as three brains. Oh, three brains, I'm terribly sorry, you see, I can't do maths. See, I'm telling a joke about not being able to do maths.

I'll tell you what's even funnier, you're telling a joke about David Willits. And that's for the real geeks amongst our political audience. Slippery slope, isn't it? Is it? No, it really is. Out geeking myself. Oh, gosh, you see, I do... The truth is, I bet everyone who's in a really happy,

stable relationship with a truly lovely human being lets their thoughts stray occasionally. Do you think? I was going to say exactly that. And I think you're in a perfect, perfect place. Yeah, lots of people have swapped places with you. and imagination that can really enjoy almost a fantasy life when you're away from your other life but never do anything about it that would destroy your normal life, then you're fine. I think that's called real life. Yes, you're absolutely fine.

If you'd written to us and the letter had gone, you know, I'm in a long-term relationship with gorgeous, wonderful man and I've just had the seventh of 285 affairs I intend to have when I'm abroad and stuff, I think our answers would be different. But Jane's right. You know, you've got the steak at home. Just imagine the burger. Yeah, exactly.

I mean, you can have a rich internal life. That's what they call it. And it's not infidelity. No. Who was the American... Just dirty dreams. I'm talking of which. The other morning, I mean, sometimes I amaze myself.

Do you know what, Kate? I'm now really worried. No, no, last dream before I woke up, I was doing a trampoline demonstration at the Ministry of Defence. Right. I think you make these things up. I don't.

I don't care if you do. They're so stupid. Who would make that up? Who would make that up? Okay. Right. I also wanted to talk about doing things on your own. This is from a listener who says,

11 years ago, I got divorced. Sorry, that's not funny in any way. I had a fantastic 18 months of seeing all the things I wanted to and going on holiday on my own. What I noticed was that I sat eating dinner, people watching. Sorry, that's very poorly read out. What I noticed was as I sat eating dinner, people watching. Sorry, that's very poorly read out. What I noticed was as I sat eating dinner, people watching, couples and families were either sitting in silence

or scrolling on their phones. That's why I'm just still crying with laughter. I even went on a solo holiday for Christmas. I met another recently divorced woman and she became a great friend of mine, so that was good. When I met my new partner, he was horrified that I would drive to London, park in a remote car park near a tube station that required me to walk through a dark alley to get back to my car he couldn't believe that i would feel safe doing that at night

and i did feel safe until he mentioned it i never had any issues never got approached when i was out alone and never experienced anything untoward i also feel if i were a man no one would have batted an eyelid. And that is absolutely true, isn't it? Anyway, she goes on to say that she had she went all over the world on her solo ventures, went to Australia to work for six months on her own. A memorable night was when I booked a ticket to see an opera at the Sydney Opera House. Surely something everyone should experience. When I got there, the really nice woman pointed out that I had in fact booked a ticket for the Royal Opera House in London. Fortunately, as I was on my own, only the two of us witnessed my fuckwittery.

So I just went out for a steak and a bucket of red wine instead. Brilliant. There you go. Well, I hope you're happy. That sounds a good idea to me. Yeah. And actually quite a lot of people have written in to say that they have a great time when they're out and about on their own. And it's one of those things,

isn't it, that the more you hear that people are, the easier it is for everybody to do. So keep them coming. Absolutely. And you interviewed Stig Abel last week, didn't you? We certainly did. And Cathy just says she doesn't think she could love him anymore. Purely maternal interest,

she says, as I am old enough to be his mother i think you've met stig's mother uh stig had a launch party for his book death under a little sky and his parents were there i had a lovely chat with them they are they they were just lovely lovely uh curious curious, funny, kind people who were so proud. Oh, that's genuinely lovely. And it really, it did strike me in quite a poignant way. I mean, it must be amazing to go along to witness your, I mean, you know, he's a grown man, isn't he? He's in his mid-40s, you know, doing something.

He's in his late 30s. Well, I think, no,'s these 43, I think. Is that mid? Something along those lines. But I, sorry, this is what I'm trying to get at. I think you imagine as a parent that your moments of pride will be when your kids are possibly a bit younger when they

do all those things, but for it to keep on coming and, you know, to be there still celebrating, I thought it was lovely. And they were very nice. They were very keen on your work at Radio 4 as well as a few things I've done. Tell me more about what you're saying. Who was our guest? Our guest today was Professor Tim Spector.

He's written four books all about food. He is the modern guru of the gut and he believes that the microbiome, with all of its good and bad bacteria, should really be considered a new organ in the body. It's that important, Jane. He's also the co-founder of Zoe, which is a personalised nutrition company and the world's biggest citizen science health project. Zoe did lots during COVID, didn't it?

You could join the Zoe COVID app, which tracked symptoms and was incredibly helpful in the early days of the virus. You had to record your own symptoms. You did, yeah. And it became a really good bank of knowledge for the vaccination companies and for the government too. He was in to talk about food specifically though. So we wanted to ask him that very big question,

what is the future of food? And whether it was really something that the individual could have a huge say over? Well, it depends whether we're talking about saving the planet or we're saving our health. Let's save our health. So if we focus on our health, we've got to reverse the current trend, which is overwhelmingly changing our natural food for ultra processed foods. And this is basically killing us and making us more and more obese and giving us more diseases in a sort of slow, subliminal way that we haven't been aware of. And the UK now has the highest rates of ultra processed food consumption in Europe, second only in the world to the USA. And it's responsible for childhood

obesity and many other things. And no one's really been talking about this in any serious way really been talking about this in any serious way until very recently, because we've just been talking about calories and fats and sugars and salts and things. And that's why we just have to start again and realise that our food choices are actually the most important things we can all do for our health. Yeah, I'm astonished by that fact that we are the second worst in the world when it comes to ultra processed food consumption. How has that been allowed to happen? What have other countries done that we haven't done? Well, some have food cultures that maintained the role of traditional foods and didn't accept the fact that, for example, we should all change from butter to margarine, which is fake, fake butter, and didn't accept that we have supermarket breads rather than traditionally baked breads.

baked breads and have kept the tradition of cooking passing on generations of being able to cook to the next generation and granny teaching certain recipes etc that we recognize in many of the mediterranean countries for example that have still managed very low levels, you know, 10 to 15 percent of their calories are ultra processed food as opposed to 57 percent in the UK. So I think the lack of a food culture is is the historical reason that Britons have done this. But I think we also have a government that is much less interested in doing anything about food than other countries. We have a very strong food lobby in this in this country that is, you know, puts pressure on government to make sure that any regulation doesn't affect them and that they can carry on. So reformulating foods to pretend that they're healthier whilst you know they are just every bit as unhealthy and making us overeat yeah so it's it's a mixture of culture

and politics and these two together is a pretty lethal combination yeah and obviously that is costing us a lot in the long run if we can personalize it all, I love your books and just this notion of how we can dispense with counting calories and start to look at the way we eat in a very different way. And I wonder whether you could explain it to our listeners just in the choices that you've made yourself. I was interested that you used to start your day with a bowl of muesli and a glass of orange juice, which sounds absolutely fine to me. But after your extensive research, you've changed that, haven't you? Why? Yes, well, I realised that what I thought was healthy,

and I think most listeners would think would be a sort of healthy breakfast, for me turned out not to be. For a start, both of those products are ultra-processed foods. For the large part, most breakfast cereals and most orange juices that aren't completely fresh contain lots of ingredients and chemicals you wouldn't find in your kitchen. And just the fact of having ultra-processed food, we know, makes you overeat. So studies have shown that giving people identical meals for a day, one ultra processed and one whole food makes you overeat by about 500 kilocalories, 500 calories a day, which is a huge amount because they're very palatable and you don't feel full on them. So that was one reason.

So, you know, I was eating what I thought was healthy food, but it turned out to be ultra processed food in disguise. And I might have also had some brown supermarket bread that looked healthy, but it was also ultra processed. And then the other, the bit that was personalized was the fact that when I tested myself with the, say, doing a test like Zoe, where you get a continuous glucose monitor and a fat monitor, I found that I have a very bad response to sugars. So compared to the average person, I get a really big sugar spike when I

have some carbohydrates. So by having these sugar spikes regularly, which were triggered by my muesli or my bread or my orange juice, this meant that my body was under more stress and I was gaining weight long term just by these small increments. So that was, you know, that was for me quite a big change when I first noticed this. And, you know, and I put that together with my, as a doctor, I would just grab a sandwich at lunch and that turned out to be, you know, what I thought was another healthy brown roll with tuna and sweet corn.

Turns out that was something that really spiked me, my blood sugars as well. So when I've changed that to a high fat breakfast with nuts and seeds and full fat yogurt, I've ended up not having those sugar spikes, having more energy, feeling fuller more easily, and have slowly shed about 10 kilos in weight over the last few years. So I think everyone can learn these lessons that, firstly, a lot of the food we eat that we think is healthy isn't. And there's also a degree of personalization that, although we're all told by the government and the NHS that we should be eating more starchy foods and grains and we should eat lots of bread and potatoes, etc. That's not going to be correct for many people because, as we've shown, there's big differences between all of us in how we respond to the identical food. And that's what we've been doing, these studies showing tenfold differences between normal adults when given an identical muffin

in terms of our sugar or our fat responses. So it's much more complicated than we're led to believe. There isn't one size fits all. And it clearly is very personalised, Tim. So how do us mere mortals find out which personality type we are? Well, if you've got the money, you do one of these new tests and you actually, like, you get a Zoe kit, sign up for that, and you get this personalised nutrition where you can stick

a glucose monitor on yourself. It's all done at home and then you get readouts on your phone about what's happening to your sugar levels after your morning toast your muesli and you can get an idea of that you get fat you can test your fat at home as well fat levels in the blood after six hours after a meal and you look at your gut microbiome. So that's part, if you've got the money to do a kit, you can do that. If you haven't got that, some people can't listen to their body. So if you're the sort of person that three hours after breakfast or three hours after lunch, you get a sugar dip. You might notice you slump in your energy levels. You get more tired. Your mood's a bit depressed. And actually, you get more hungry. That's a sign that you are having a sugar spike and then a dip afterwards. So sometimes listening

to your body, experimenting with things like breakfast when you're in control, trying either skipping breakfast, having a high fat breakfast or having a high carb breakfast. And then just sort of mentally every half an hour working out how you feel. That would give you some rough idea of what's going on in your body so that you can redesign. So experimentation is very much part of it. And some people are better than others at sensing how their body really feels. I'm not particularly good, but I do know some people can do this and can feel this. But it's only when you understand how differently everyone responds to the same food that you start to make thinking about your body in a different way and i think that's that's the first step

voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar contacts, calendar, double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Tim Spector is our guest this afternoon. The K things we wanted to talk about, Tim, kefir, kimchi, kombucha, they are very much in the ether of kind of, I don't know, health. It's not a fad, is it? But a new health language at the moment. What exactly do those do for us? Yeah, well, I talk about the four Ks in my book. And in a way, five years ago, no one had really heard of these. But I think now they're very much part of British culture.

And the one thing that is good about Britain is we can adopt new habits pretty fast. And these are all fermented foods. If we add the 4Ks to things like yogurt and to cheese and the Japanese fermented soy products, we've got a whole range of foods which contain live microbes. They're probiotic foods. And we now know that they are really vital for our healthy gut, our healthy gut microbiome. And new research has shown quite clearly that just in a couple of weeks, intensive use of these foods improves our immune system, reduces inflammation, and can have important effects on our metabolism so that all our gut is working better and much healthier. So it's really important that people start to use these products on a regular basis,

small and often, is really the way with these foods. And trying new ones, not just sticking to the same yogurt, you know, realize that these other ones have even more bugs in them. And the more bugs, the merrier. realize that these other ones have even more bugs in them and the more bugs the merrier and do you worry tim that we really are going to head towards an even more desire divided food society because i mean i know that some of the kimchi on sale in my local neck of the woods in london can be about kind of four or five quid a jar i know you can make it at home for an awful lot less, but I also wonder whether some people who are on really restricted diets

because of cost, because of the cost of living crisis, you know, how all of this very good stuff can really reach them. Yeah, no, it's a genuine concern. But I mean, we are drifting apart as a nation between the sort of healthy and the unhealthy, particularly as the unhealthy are eating more and more ultra processed foods. You know, in those deprived groups, over 95 percent of their calories are ultra processed. And I think we need to be teaching people that fermented foods are something that are actually very cheap to make yourself. And this should be part of our education, should be part of our school system. Everyone actually can make yogurt. It's dead easy.

You can make sauerkraut or kimchi from leftover scraps in your fridge that you'd otherwise throw away. And there's no cooking involved. It's all cold. It's just leaving it out. But time is required, isn't it, Tim? It is required. But if you get in a system, I mean, things like yogurt and kefir are made in poor countries, in lots of in Pakistan and India. It's just a routine that the bottle is just left out. It takes about five minutes. You leave it out. It's ready the next day.

A lot of these things are about teaching people routines. And so it is all possible if you have that right education or it's passed down within the families. If a palate has become conditioned to ultra-processed food, how easy is it to retrain that palate to accept kefir and kimchi? It's not straightforward. You're absolutely right. And it often has to be done gradually. And I tell people if they're trying to get kefir, start mixing it with yogurt first so you slowly bring it in. But, you know, we've all learned to do this. I'm sure when we first drank tea or coffee, we had lots of spoons of sugar in it and we managed to wean ourselves off it. So it's the same principle as we learn to wean ourselves

off ultra sweet foods onto more sour or bitter ones. It's just a gradual process and realizing you're not going to do it in a day. And I think that's key. All of the work that you've done, Tim, on the microbiome, is this revolutionising our knowledge about digestion and links to health? Absolutely. It's totally changed our views about food, how that affects our health, realizing that these microbes are the key to the link between our immune system, our brain and the foods we eat and realizing they are chemical factories that are producing all the good chemicals and metabolites we need to function well,

to fight cancer, to fight aging, to keep our metabolism on the right track. And they need to be fed properly. And I think this is why we're moving away from the old idea of calories and macronutrients and starting to think of food as this complex group of chemicals that we need to be taking much more seriously and realize it's a much more complex subject than just ticking a few boxes to say I've got vitamin C, I've got fiber, everything's fine. And how quickly can you change what's in your intestines? If you're listening to this this afternoon, you think, yep, change what's in your intestines. If you're listening to this this afternoon, you think,

yep, I've been eating ultra processed food for 10, 20, 30 years of my life, whatever it is. So, you know, I'm kind of, I'm too far down the line to really change anything. Would that ever be true? No. The good thing about the gut microbiome is it is flexible. It's changeable. And studies have shown that if you've got really poor microbes, some are such as one you're describing, within a week, you can transform your gut microbes if you start feeding them the plants and the fermented foods and the real food, and you avoid the junk food full of chemicals. So it can happen really in a few days. And so that is the motivating factor for everybody that we are all empowered to improve our health. And our food choices are the most important tool we have for our health. And people don't fully realise that. Will any of your ideas make their way through to the hospital kitchens of the NHS?

I'd love to hope so because at least we could stop poisoning people with ultra-processed foods in our kitchens. There are some hospitals that do have high standards and do use real food. We just haven't rolled it out nationally. We haven't yet got this. We're one of the few countries that doesn't talk about ultra processed foods and our national food guidelines. Once that happens, I think the rest will follow. But I think it's up to the public really to start voicing their concern about these products and realize that these foods ought to

have warning labels on them because we now know they are really bad for our health and for the nation. Sorry to interrupt him, but can you give us an example of a couple of ultra-processed foods that I've probably eaten today and will eat tomorrow that could actually be doing me real harm? Yeah, probably supermarket bread, I imagine. Supermarket sliced loaf contains, if you look at the back of the pack, perhaps a dozen ingredients, half of which you wouldn't recognize in your kitchen. You might have had some most breakfast cereals, ultra processed, although they might say they've got vitamins and fiber.

although they might say they've got vitamins and fiber, they're reconstituted, they're not actually in their real form. Most ready meals are ultra-processed. Most biscuits and cakes contain all kinds of chemicals. So we're surrounded by them. It's really hard to avoid them completely. But I think my reason for saying this, I really worry about people having yogurts for children, for example, without health warnings when they are really bad foods and have no health benefits at all. And people think they're giving their kids healthy foods. I think this is where the public is really being misled.

And we realize that all these reconstituted foods that are faking the real thing and put back as food are ultra processed and we and we're currently being hoodwinked into thinking they're healthy professor tim specter was our guest today there are loads of books that you can choose from his latest one is called food for life i was very glad that you managed to get in your kefir experience well i'm going to persevere. And actually, I'm probably one of the very few people on Earth put onto Kefir by their mother, because my mum is in quite good health for somebody who's approaching 90.

Doesn't always appreciate it, perhaps, as much as you should. I'm just hedging my bets here, because you are very fortunate if you're able to get up and do stuff when you're 89, let's be honest. She has started to swear by kefir so i've tried to use it i'm trying to like it and it's quite heavy weather at the moment but it's the first thing i have you know come downstairs in the morning and i have a glass of kefir and it sets me jangling well that's very good for you especially that time of day uh All of that sounds absolutely lovely, but don't forget my twirl. Well, I had already forgotten it and I'll continue to forget it as the week progresses, I suspect. Michael has emailed to say, I thought the feature

on Minecraft on your radio show today was perfect. Fantastic, in fact. I started playing Minecraft myself during the first lockdown of 2019, and the game provided a fantastic escape from what was going on around me. Perhaps more trivial in my case, but it was fantastic to hear about how it's helped others. And actually, that feature was done by our colleague Kate Lee, and it was about how autistic children can really benefit from playing Minecraft. Yeah, it was a very good report.

It was very interesting. And yes, Michael, I'm really glad that you have started to play Minecraft and you enjoy it. I still, I'm afraid, don't quite know what you do on Minecraft. You build a new world. Well, that's what I'm doing, one day at a time. Okay. In your dreams, literally. I'm going to keep an eye on these dreams, Jane, because so far you've been the ambassador to... I've gone to Romania.

Romania? It was Romania, yeah. Or was it Bucharest? No, well, it was Romania. Oh, country. Oh, for God's sake. Okay. You can't be an ambassador to a city.

Even in my dreams, I knew that. But were you based in Bucharest? And you've given a trampolining demonstration to the Ministry of Defence. So there is a military theme running through this. There's a kind of... There are uniforms involved. You're in positions of authority.

I think the problem with my dreams currently, and look, there's nothing more boring than, let's just acknowledge this, I'm really going, disappearing up my own kefir-infested gut. Yeah. But I have very specific dreams. I remember, there's obviously something happening. They're the dreams I have just before I come to in the morning.

And I can remember them in huge detail. That's weird. And it is quite weird. Because mine just dart away. They're gone. When you watch a shoal of fishes in the sea, mine just go straight off in the other direction. You see, they linger.

I wonder whether, did Covid affect your dreams? Don't let it linger. That's the ground breeze, wasn't it? Sorry, darling, what, did COVID affect your dreams? Is it hard to let it linger? That's the ground breeze, wasn't it? Yes. Sorry, darling, what? Did COVID affect your dreams? No. Good night, everybody.

See you tomorrow. Well, you might not. I could be taken ill. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at 3 o'clock Monday until Thursday every week, and you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day

as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone