Off Air... with Jane and Fi - All the ingredients for a Christmas hit (with Philippa Gregory)

Episode Date: May 2, 2023

What’s putting a pep in Fi’s step? Why isn’t Jane a bestselling author? Have you ever swum naked and not smiled? Plus, Jane and Fi come up with a plan to make their fortune with a soft rock classic… They’re joined by historical novelist Philippa Gregory to talk about all things royal. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. So, you've got me into trouble now.

Why? Why, she said innocently, what's happened? Wasn't me, I didn't do it. Because you've been taking the piss out of my oboe playing for a long time. And now I've been asked to provide proof. Well, you see, this is what happens. I'm sorry, I just got a bit of... I did actually tuck in to your coronation biscuits. The coronation biscuits were very disappointing, can I just say.

Well, we don't want to name the brand, or do we? Nice tin. Well, no, I think we could name the brand. What if, is your volume suddenly gone?

Yeah, mine's gone. Mine disappeared. Is that intentional? Oh. We like the sound of ourselves really loud. We're old school DJs. I can't pop up.

And the pirate ships. Unless it's Tommy Vance level. Yeah, exactly. That's better. That's not, actually that's not Tommy Vance. That's Johnny Walker level. Pop up some REO Speedwagon and I'll be in paradise.

As I was coming in today, I was listening to a little bit of the at-home dentist Steve Wright in the afternoon yesterday. What? On my way home. He's retired. No, he was doing a bank holiday special. Was he?

Yeah, so anyway, I was tuned to the music station and Toto was playing. Not Africa? Yes, Africa. God, I can't stand that song. When I put my little headphones in today. Bless the rains down in Africa. Yep, the Serengeti.

Oh, God. It's quite an odd song, isn't it? It's terrible. They must make a fortune from that, even now, mustn't they? Well, why don't we just go home tonight and you, with your knowledge, we could, I'll join you on a Zoom and we'll write a soft rock power ballad and make

a fortune. Yeah, we should. We absolutely should. How difficult can it be? Well, not, harder than you would think because every single known artist has tried to do that with the Christmas number ones, haven't they? Because if you write an absolute corker with some jingly jangly bells in the background

that becomes on the kind of go-to list of Christmas hits, then you just sit back. It's like being in panto. Yeah, wait for the money to come in. But you and I should try, because you could write quite a natty lyric with your copywriter head on, and I could just do, I tell you what,

I could do those chords one four five and six the ones that haven't got Ed Sheeran into any trouble at all no gosh it's interesting that hasn't been resolved has it that court case no I think he was playing his guitar in the courtroom wasn't he today in New York just trying to prove a bit of a point I haven't kept up with it thank goodness you have yeah I'm quite interested because I really agree with that argument and we can talk about this because we're not in the jurisdiction but that argument

that eventually you just run out of chord changes I think is very valid and some people have said, oh but you'd never run out of words, would you? So if you plagiarise a bit of Thomas Hardy then you'd be done for it

if you put six words in the same order as Thomas Hardy. But I think it's different with music because only certain chords do lead to the next chord. That is the pleasing sound of pop music, that chord sequence. Oh, OK, there are some chords that could never follow other ones. Well, you wouldn't make a successful tune out of them, no. Oh, I see. I'm not musical enough to understand that. We could definitely write a Christmas hit.

We've got all the ingredients there. OK. Right, well, that's something we'll put in the diary for late September. Gosh, our lives are so hectic. You wouldn't believe it. I wanted to mention this because I do think it's important. It's entitled An Uncomfortable Grab. Have you seen this email? Yes.

I just wanted to add another perspective to the correspondence on those uncomfortable situations where a woman has been touched or grabbed inappropriately and not felt able to call it out. The discussion has predominantly been about men touching women. Well, I was at a conference recently and I was grabbed around the waist and pulled close by another senior female delegate and congratulated on a piece of work. Well, I was delighted by her comment, but the intimacy of the gesture did make me feel uncomfortable and detracted from the comment somehow, because lots of thoughts about the gesture, the location, which was very public, how slightly I knew the person, how senior they were,

and why that gesture were all zooming through my brain. Was it well meant? Possibly. But it still made me feel quite uncomfortable. Was it less significant because it was female to a female? I don't think so. Best wishes, says our correspondent, to mention her name. But I think that's quite important, important actually because sometimes that sort of just unexpected physical intimacy out of nowhere it doesn't matter who is who's doing it to you you haven't you haven't asked for it and it's a bit weird and it's very intrusive didn't you find one of the loveliest bits of the pandemic and there were only about three uh was that you had permission to choose

who it was you wanted to have physical contact with well yeah because you weren't brushing up against anybody outside your very immediate circle were you yeah i suppose that's true although of course that wouldn't apply if you were like so lots of people still having to go out and do all sorts of work in the public sphere. Yes, that's true. If you're sort of, you know, half-assed disc jockeys like ourselves, you were all right in that department, weren't you? Speak for yourself. Yes, well, I was. Sorry.

This is a delightful email from Bethan, who says, I was struck by your mention with Alex Jones of the last time your children will hold your hand, and it made me a bit sad. I'm 23 years old and still unashamedly hold my lovely mother's hand in public. I'm sure I went through a phase somewhere in the teenage years where I was certain I'd die on the spot if caught in this act by anyone else my age but actually it turns out I like her a lot more than most other people and I no longer feel any obligation to consider what others might think of this. Today we got caught in an apocalyptic rainstorm on the high street. We sprinted in a zigzag through puddles between available shop doorways before eventually

accepting our drenched fate, all along instinctively clutching each other's hands. I'm sure it was quite a sight. Whether it's a primordial comfort mechanism between mother and child, or she simply doesn't believe in my ability to cross roads alone. I think it's that. It will never leave you. I will never not want to hold her hand because I love her. If it's okay to hold hands romantically, surely it's fine for grown-ups to share familial love with a little hand squeezed too.

What a beautiful, lovely email, Bethan. Yeah, that's lovely, Bethan. Thank you for that. And we do take just really lovely emails, jaymanfee at times.radio. They don't have to be in any way controversial. Sometimes just a little bit of life-enhancing content just elevates everything, doesn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

It really does. That is lovely. Thank you very much, Bethan. This is much more me. It's about the apocalypse again. It's from Barbara. Bethan, you tried, love. Thank you. Julie McDowell is on the programme tomorrow, I promise, talking about her book, Attack, Warning,

Red. But this is from Barbara. Your discussion, Read the End of the World, took me back 60 years to when I was a very timid 13-year-old who avidly listened to the 6 o'clock news every evening on the home service to hear the latest reports on the Cuban Missile Crisis. No one else was interested or willing to discuss it, but frankly, I was terrified. Well, one Monday morning in school, all our classes were commanded to present ourselves in the assembly hall to be spoken to by our headmistress, a sharp lady called Miss Lily.

I just knew we were going to be told the devastating news which I had been dreading for days. My hands were clammy and my head was spinning. I looked around and everyone else was just smiling and carefree. I just didn't understand how they could be so blasé about our entire world disintegrating. Miss Lily started to speak. When the day girls go home today, they will find news of a disturbing nature. That was it, I thought. Here it comes, the end of life as we know it. As some of you know, there was a six-form dance on Friday evening last. At one stage, it was announced from the platform that one of our girls had become betrothed to a young man from Coleraine Academical Institution, which is, of course, nonsense. Nevertheless,

a newspaper has picked up on the story, so it will be common knowledge, albeit untrue, when you go home. Please ensure that this rumour is quashed. At which point I burst into tears. Barbara, I do feel for you. Things are very different then. That's from Barbara, who says, by the way, I look out of my window over the intervening two miles to your recently mentioned B&B by the sea. Oh, you're very lucky to live in such a gorgeous place. And my other claim to fame is that I travelled from the north coast of Northern Ireland to see you both in Edinburgh. Jane even name checked me on the stage. Well, she didn't actually read my name out because she didn't know it.

But she did know that I'd come from Northern Ireland for the occasion. Barbara, I well remember that. And thank you very much for sticking with us. We appreciate it. And you are, I mean, that is just a lovely part of Northern Ireland to live. So you're a very fortunate woman. And I'm so sorry you were so, so frightened by your headteacher's announcement. And thank goodness the rumours about that betrothal were officially quashed by no lesser person than the headteacher do you know what i remember from that evening in edinburgh the fantastic representative of uh the open water swimming club who was there and do you remember what the swimming club was called was it something

dippers no it was the oh my mary because they go swimming in the nude. And when the cold water really hits them, that's what they all shriek. Call my Mary. Well, I don't know that'll be happening during Coronation Week. Do you? And I'd like to apologise for any... This is the second time I've had to do this today for anyone who's been offended by that.

It's not offensive at all. I think it's wonderful and it's just liberating and it's absolutely fine, Jane. It's absolutely fine. I have swum naked, only maybe once or twice. It is a very, you're right, it's an incredibly liberating thing to do. Yes. It really is.

It feels like one of the most brilliant of all human sensations. And I defy anybody swimming without any clothes on not to be smiling. It's just one of those things that makes people smile. It just does have you swum naked and not smiled contact us now no don't you may be due for compensation jane and fee times dot radio no don't guess people start sending us pictures and we haven't been here very long we're going to trouble jay um barry yes i imagine fee glo lover jane garvey kathy newman and carol walker are inspirational to a lot of young women barry that's incredibly good of you um it's like listening to articulate

educated leading ladies says barry well barry's a good man he is it's also he goes on to say it's educational in good diction oh Oh, I see. Well, that's put a little bit of pep in my step. Shall we introduce our fantastic guest today? And then we might make time for a final email at the end, James. Yes, let's do that. So we talked to Philippa Gregory today. She has sold millions and millions and millions of her novels. And she writes historical fiction.

I think defined by her detail. Would you agree? Yes. I mean, I was listening to her in another interview, and she's one of the many reasons I'm not a best-selling author of historical fiction, because you've really got to put the legwork in. You've actually got to do loads and loads of research for months. I mean, this is literally not something I'd ever be able to do. Well, the thing that amazed me when I was doing a bit of research today, too, was that she puts a clause in a contract if a filmmaker or a TV production company buys an option on her books

to say that they may not change a single detail in the work of historical fiction, even though it is fiction, because she is so proud of the facts that underlie the fiction. And very much like you, I thought, oh, my God. I mean, the attraction of writing fiction, just make it up. I mean, you know, was it 1673 or was it 1674? Who cares? You can't really check. She has to get things like, you're right, I think it was the same interview maybe that I found

where she's talking about the length of time it would have taken a character to make a specific journey. Yes. So they couldn't have claimed to be at the Battle of Whatever if they'd left their home in Dorking only two weeks before because they'd never have made it. So honestly, Philippa, just write something set now. It's so much easier, love. So much easier.

But anyway, this is why she is a successful novelist, because you can trust her fiction, Jane. She actually she's got a nonfiction book coming out later on this year. That sounded good. Yeah, which is called Normal Women, 1066 to 1994. And it does what it says on the tin. it's about all of the women that history has forgotten but look we're obviously talking to her in the run up to the coronation because so much of what she writes about

is about the court of kings and queens so we began by asking if her in-depth knowledge means that she looks at our current royal family through the same prism for intrigue, bad behaviour malfunctioning and power crazed oppressives. Well, you know, we're all that. All of us are that by our very human nature. So

I don't really examine them with that particular mind any more than I would examine, say, you know, you and Jane with that particular mind. I just assume that we are all power-crazed obsessives, narcissistic obsessives. But the interesting thing for me about the past royal families, up until about 1688, and then really up until about the 18th century, was that they had a tremendous amount of real power. So they were tyrants. So all of the gold and the horses and the carriages and the army at your disposal was a real emblem of the power they embodied. That makes them very interesting to me because if, for instance, you have the misfortune to be married to King Henry VIII and it goes wrong, then it's going to go very, very, very much worse for you than if you're married to, say, George IV. You know, it's never nice. But, you know, Henry VIII has the power to overhead you

without consulting anybody. So when a king is a tyrant, it's much more interesting to both, I think, a historian and a novelist than when a king is an adjunct to a constitutional democracy. So do you think that King Charles has actually brought himself as far away from that kind of monarchic setup as it would be possible to be in 2023? I'm disappointed that he's not gone more bicycle. I mean, my advice to him would be go full bicycle. This is really your chance to redefine the whole tradition, so much of which is absolutely embedded

in a history of political tyranny and is so linked to the church at a time when people are less and less attending church and less and less believing. I mean, it would have been, for me, if not for anyone else, tremendously interesting to see him look at some of the European monarchies and think, how can we do a scaled-down British monarchy, holding on to all the things that we all hold really dear, which is, you know, obviously there's a great affection for the family personally and there's a great love of tradition and the hoopla. But at the same time, there's not a great love of paying for the tradition and the hoopla.

And I think that's a real disadvantage at a time of massive cost of living crisis. You mean that the royals themselves will not be short of a penny or two when the big events of the weekend are over? They'll carry on as normal. And there will be people who have had a pretty difficult winter and are concerned about what they're going to eat next week, who will be invited to pledge allegiance to the king. Is it an uncomfortable thing for you, Philippa? It's not uncomfortable. I mean, it's only uncomfortable when it sort of jars with my genuine respect and admiration for the family as it currently is. You know, I think, you know, the working royals are, you know, brilliantly hardworking and expose many of the

causes that I hold very, very dear. On the other hand, I don't think it's a very good look for anybody to be glorying in a multi-million pound ceremony in our capital city when we're pouring sewage into streams and we can't apparently afford to pay nurses. To me, it's just such a contradiction between the glamour of the event and the poverty of many people in the country. Of course, what would really change it though, Philippa, as well as some kind of impetus from the monarchy itself, would be if lots and lots of people didn't turn up for things that the royal family do. And if you look at the outpouring of grief there was for Queen Elizabeth II, there were so many people in this country who quite clearly wanted to say,

actually, this is me. This is who I want to be within our society. This is the representation I want to have. So it's a balance between what they do and what we do isn't it? Oh absolutely and you know look I lit a beacon did you? I did for the Jubilee you know like as I say you know I think especially say the late Queen was genuinely intensely beloved and I think we you know we saw that not just at the funeral and the morning, but also at the Jubilee when people absolutely did turn out. Whether a king who

comes to the throne at the age that he comes to the throne, not as an absolutely adorable, very, very beautiful young wife and mother, whether he can capture the imagination in the same way. It's such a different time. You know, I just don't think, I don't think you can compare the two. I know they're succeeding monarchs, but it's too early to tell. Firstly, as a historian, I must tell you, it's about 100 years too early to have this conversation anyway. But in addition to that, I mean, I think the times are so very different. If you think back, you know, she was crowned in the early 50s, mid 50s. It's a world away now, isn't it?

Well, it is. The Queen was crowned in 1953. So the Second World War had only been over for eight years. There was still rationing. It's a completely different time. But I imagine, Philippa, that lots of people will say, if we're going to have a monarchy at all, then this is the only way to do it. Full bodied, all the splendour, all the glitz. And in a post Brexit world, we need to distinguish ourselves as a country. And here's one way of doing it. Yeah, I'm only sure you can say that, you know, but are you going to say that nothing can ever change ever? It's just it's not an argument that has any sense of time passing.

And the people you speak to in your part of the country, do you sense a real excitement about the correlation? Are people planning parties? What's happening? In my part of the country, there isn't a great deal of excitement, you know, but then I don't think it's particularly typical. I live in a small village and it's really, it's quite hard to get stuff organised anyway. We're a small rural village. So if the kind of key people who organise things don't do it, then they don't do it. I think it's, I mean, I think in a way, coming so soon as it does after the Jubilee celebrations were kind of a little bit buntinged out. And also the weather's not been so great recently. I mean, it might pick up, you know, in a in a in a couple of days time.

But I don't I don't get the same sense of coronation excitement as there was when they invented chicken. Have you seen the quiche recipe? Yes, that alone. I think you should do it as it was done before. Well, I won't hear a word said against the tarragon broad bean spinach combination that is the new coronation quiche, but it doesn't really seem to be catching on. You're right, outside of my own household voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can

navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Philippa Gregory is our guest this afternoon and we're halfway through a delightful interview with her. She is renowned, as we said at the beginning, for putting an extraordinary amount of detail into her writing for the pleasure of us, her readers,

which stems from the extensive research that she carries out. But we did want to ask her if she finds it simply harder to get information about women who are often less documented throughout history as the men are. No, they're not. Women don't write journals, nor do they write boastful autobiographies. You never ever, you very rarely find a book,

you know, My Years in Puna, written by a woman, you know, My Years in C'mon, is not kind of a top women's title. But up until about 1660, there are those like two or three women's diaries, whereas there's lots of men's journals and records and letters that have been kept. Also, of course, all the laws are passed by men. So you get an idea, an insight into what they think is important

by the passing of the different laws they choose to work on. So it's a hunt for women in history. I've been doing it very devotedly for my novels for 30 years, and I've been doing it even more devotedly in the last 10 years for a big history book that I'm about to publish about what is called Normal Women, and it's about women of England, 1066 to 1994. And in that, what I found really striking, particularly in the early centuries, is that there are lots of records about women, but a few guild reports of successful women artisans or women, craftswomen or women businessmen. And there's lots of wills in which women are mentioned

either approvingly and getting a fortune and obviously rising to enormous wealth and success because of their ability in a partnership with a wealthy, successful man. So there's lots of women in the history, but you have to look for them. And when you find them, you have to read the records reversed. So when it says this woman was unruly and was disrespectful and was disobedient and was in a food riot, you don't go, oh, that's a really bad woman. You go like, OK, there's poverty so bad in that area that the women have come out and are collectively acting and when they are challenged by the Lord on horseback,

they give them a load of cheek and you go, that to me is not a disrespectful woman, that to me is a fantastic heroine whose story has not been told. But does it ever sometimes kind of disable you with doom, the fact that women's lives have for so long been punished, really, by men? I love the phrase, disabled by doom. I've not personally experienced being disabled by doom, but it's a not unreasonable reaction to some of the history,

which is immensely depressing. Politically, it's pretty bad, but domestically, it's just terrible. You know, the long tradition of wife beating and rape that goes back centuries without critique for so many of them. I mean, that does bring you down in the research. It is deeply saddening and also deeply angering. And the target of my life in research and in life is actually to not be made either sad or angry by it but just to go like okay we can see now what's happening and our task is to make make the world a safer place for women that's the only thing in a small way and perhaps it's not so small thinking about research,

the fact that up until very recently a mother's name would not be recorded on a marriage certificate of their child must be so frustrating that women were just routinely written out of history. And until the last five or six years, everybody seemed to think that was OK. I find that astonishing. I know there's so many astonishing things. I mean, up until 1857, middle of the 19th century, if a man was massively adulterous, a wife couldn't divorce him. He had to be massively adulterous and something else worse as well.

So he had to have incest with his sister, for instance. I mean, beating his wife was not enough. That could come under the clause of a domestic tiff. So, you know, the injustice to women and especially the injustice domestically to women as mothers has been enormous. So a massively adulterous man could leave his wife and never see her again and take the children, even though she was completely not at fault in the marriage at all.

And, you know, the changes to the law have come very, very slowly, but every time they have come, they have been recently in favour of women and have freed women. And, you know, we have to be grateful for historical women, women in the 19th century, who campaigned for that with very little support from, no support from men, and not that much support from lots of women. It really was something that a few women saw as a terrible wrong and campaigned for it. And if we're going to return to the monarchy as a subject, has it ever been beneficial to women to have a female head of state, or has it made not a jot of difference? Oh, it's delightful. Women in power

don't, by and large, promote women, which is a bit of a blow to sisterhood. So doom with despair, you know, that's a bit of a downer as well. I mean, I'm hoping that as we understand more and more that our interests are collective, as women see that a woman's success is not someone taking the slot they might have had. The more slots there are, the more likely you are to have sisterhood. So if there's one role for the woman on the board or the company, everyone below the board level, all the women below the board level, are competing against each other. They're not even competing

against the men at that point. There's only one slot, and of the 10 of them, someone's going to get it. So you're not going to get it and then promote loads of women underneath you because they'll just want your job. So the whole idea that as soon as we get genuine equal opportunities for women, I think we will see more collaboration between women and more sisterhood in the workplace. you see in more labouring jobs, that when people can see that they are doing the same job, when they can see that if they support each other, the job is easier, when they see if they can organise together, then they're more likely to succeed. That's when you get a genuine sisterhood. But in terms of, you know, a queen on the throne, it doesn't make much difference. And that's why I don't really believe in tokenism. You know, like I think one, one, one, the board is no good. It's got to be 50%. Do you know if current members of the royal family avidly read your books?

Yes, I do. Which ones? Yes. Queen Camilla has been reading my books for years and years, and it happened that my publication date has always been in time for the Balmoral holiday, so I would always get her a copy in time for her to have it at Balmoral where she had time to read, and she's invited me a few times onto events with her and on her reading club. And do you get the sense that she has been sustained through her greater knowledge and understanding of the various courts throughout history in this country

because of reading your books? Well, if I did think so, I would have to be a narcissist on a level with Henry VIII. No, I don't think that I am a great assistance to her, no. But I think that, you know, I think she has a very good idea of the role she was entering. And I think she had no ambition to enter into it. And I think what's really admirable about her is that, you know, she married for love and took on what I would think would be one of the worst jobs in the world. So do you think we should cut her a bit more slack for people who still don't cut her very much slack?

Yes, I do. I mean, I don't think she has anything to... I don't think there is any reason to blame her for anything. I think she's lived her life in a way that most of us would have lived ours, given the same circumstances. If we're going to say now, at this stage of the century, that you can't marry for love, then what are we talking about? She is a woman who, in very difficult circumstances, made a choice which I think most of us would think was reasonable. What was that choice?

The choice to marry the man that she loved. And would she have some sympathy for your misgivings about the opulence of the event on Saturday? It's not the sort of thing I'd bring up. it's not the sort of thing I'd bring up. You know, like, you know, if you're at a royal reception, it's not the sort of thing you feel really comfortable about saying, like, how much is it costing? How much am I paying for it?

You know, that would just be kind of bad manners. But I think that they are, I think the entire royal family are intensely aware that they rule not just by consent, but by a claim. And that it's essential that, especially in these first few years of transition from one monarch to another, that they don't put a foot wrong. And I think you see that over and over again, the Charles, the king's choosing not to insist to attend the climate conference, you know, when clearly it's absolutely in his heart and he's lived his life talking about conservation and working on the environment.

There was absolutely the decision of a democratically positioned monarch who didn't want to overstep his constitutional boundaries. And I thought it was a massive self-sacrifice of him to do so. And I don't know I would have been as controlled myself, but then I've not been raised to do it. Because I think, as you alluded to earlier, when you were talking about the Queen's coronation, a young, beautiful woman in her 20s, radiating the potential for goodness and all sorts of possibilities for the future. And it does look as though, to be brutal about it, we're just going to have a lot of elderly to middle-aged men on the throne for the foreseeable future. And I just wonder what you think about that. I think we now live, you know, seven years on from the last coronation at a very, very, very trivial

social media-driven, image-driven culture. So I think anybody, everybody who is in the public eye has got to maintain an unbelievably high standard of aesthetic beauty. And that's much easier if you're 20, obviously, than if you're 70. So I think that it's not so much to me, it's not so much the sex of the monarch, but that will determine how well received he or she is, but the look of them. And I did regret with the passing of the Queen that that was the last Queen I expect to see in my lifetime. But I don't think that matters as much as the way they maintain hearts and minds. I think that's really key. And I'm sure that that's absolutely uppermost in their minds as to how to maintain the longevity of the monarchy.

And also the fact that they're all, I believe all of them, really committed to a constitutional monarchy. So they're all going to be working towards that. So if there's something where it becomes apparent they have to do a massive step change, I think they would do that. I mean, I do wish that there had been a bigger step change at this point, but I think changes will come. I think the monarchy in England is in Britain is going to become more open, more transparent and much less expensive, much less elitist.

Anne's came out at the end of last year, but Normal Women is her non-fiction work all about women lost to history, really, which is coming out later this year. And I think we've already asked her to come back on and talk about that, haven't we? It's always good to do an honour booking, isn't it? Yes, we basically do. We do a lot.

What people don't appreciate is... There's so much of the work. We do a lot of work behind the scenes. Yeah. A great deal of it. You know, we really... I'm just looking at Kate, who's looking at me with something.

There's a tiny bit verging on contempt. I think derision. Yeah. Here's an update from Catherine in D.C. about Donald Trump's mum. Oh, yes.

We were talking about this yesterday, weren't we? There is some great detail about the Donald's long-suffering mother, says Catherine. Mary Trump, niece to Trump,

her father was the older brother of Donald, who died of alcoholism after a life of abuse at the hands of their utterly brutal father, Fred. Who was married to Mary. Yep, wrote a book on her life in the Trump orbit. She was coldly shut out once her father succumbed to alcoholism and had to sue for her inheritance. I read it, said Catherine. It's an ugly and dark story which rang true to me. The headline is that Trump's mum was married to an incredibly abusive man and the stories in the book are as awful as you can imagine.

Her life before Fred Trump was only touched upon as a biographical exposition. And she's attached a photograph there. And, oh gosh, I mean, there's a smiling woman there. But I think if you know anything about what lay behind that smile, it's for the cameras, isn't it? Yes, it's one of those brave smiles. But when you know the truth, really rather sad. Well, I suppose, I mean, I don't know whether it's cod psychology

to just say, knowing nothing about his family at all i would always have assumed there was some thing that had gone wrong well there's something about the way in which he conducts himself which does lead me to wonder whether he was very damaged during his early life yeah yeah yeah well poor woman um and this is uh really nice from a listener who, we don't need to mention her name, one small, oh, you often say in your podcast that you'd like to know a little bit more about listeners' lives. Well, one small thing about my life currently

is that my darling brother is in prison and I freely admit that I'm glad that our parents are no longer alive to witness it. But something wonderful has come out of this and that is that my brother and I have never been closer. He knows that I love him and I hope he means it. So, well, I hope he means it too. And I suspect there's all sorts of detail there that you've been very careful not to include, and we're certainly not going to say any more about what you said in the email. But isn't that interesting that something as difficult as that,

there's a tiny element of the positive about it. I'm heartened to hear that. Yeah, because I don't suppose I mean I imagine that for a lot of people who go to prison they don't have any contact with their family they certainly don't have improved contact with their family or improved relations so that's probably a relatively unusual experience but again thank you very much for telling us about it. Shall we mention Agent V? Oh let's let's let's, let's, let's. Well, thank you. It's Victoria, and we're very grateful to you because you've dropped off.

What did Victoria drop off? Some very interesting Malaysian novels for us to read. Yes, and I often think about this. I don't know about you, but I sometimes wonder why it is that the only fiction we get is that, on the whole, in this country, is American or British. And Australian writers, we get is that, on the whole, in this country, is American or British. And Australian writers, we get them. So we only get people who write in English, on the whole.

And there must be some amazing novels written in all sorts of languages that never reach us. It's weird, isn't it? Well, I think some of the uber-selling ones do. The Ferrante series of best friend novels out of Italy. Those are ones I've read recently. There's Gabriel Garcia Marquez. These are just names. Just names I'm plugging.

And there was a time when there was a lot of Scandi Noir books. I don't know whether that... Did we reach peak Scandi Noir and we didn't get... So I'm now contradicting myself. But when was the last time you read a great Japanese novel or indeed a Malaysian novel or a French novel? There must be all sorts of amazing German and French blockbuster thrillers that we never get to read.

Yes, I'm sure there are. We should get a publisher on, shouldn't we, to talk about that? And also I'm very interested in the male-female readership thing, so maybe we can book someone who really knows about publishing. We've got Joan Nesbo coming up sometime on the programme. Oh, yes. And also, I'm very interested in the male-female readership thing, so maybe we can book someone who really knows about publishing. We've got Joan Nesbo coming up sometime on the programme. Oh, yes. Yeah.

We have. Anyway, Agent V says they can't wait for the Coronation programme. Well, I mean, nor can we. Nor can I. Well, that's just me. Just had a quick look at your face. So, so far, I've bought a Colin the King caterpillar, some commemorative biscuits. I'm making a flan.

I've chosen a decent waterproof outfit. I've read an awful lot of books. I've watched about 17 documentaries on the Royal Family. What else do you want me to do, Jane? You've done everything. Actually, you recommended to me a very good, we can do a hard recommend now, for the ITVX show, which is called? The Real Crown.

And that's got some cracking contributors, hasn't it? Well, it's executive edited by Roy Anika, who is the Sunday Times Royal Correspondent. Well, that'd be good then. Yeah, and it is brilliant. It's got a lot of tittle-tattle. But I keep thinking, oh, that's totally unseen footage

and then having to check in with myself because i've really not been watching all of the footage for the last 30 years jane just being honest i can't believe it um no i haven't i know the bbc did a uh show about charles i haven't seen that i think that i did record it i'm not sure whether i've quite have i got time in my crowded schedule to watch that before Saturday. Possibly not. But I will plug on with more of The Real Crown because it is fantastically. It's gossip rich. It is fair to say. And the contributor who I think she's so good and she's so, so articulate and interesting is Anne Glenn Connor. Lady Glenn Connor, who was Princess Margaret's lady-in-waiting. I think they were very close.

And if you know anything about her life, she had such an awful life herself, a life of real tragedy. Was she married to the tenant man? Yes, and he was pretty vile to her and indeed in general. And she's written about this, so it's certainly not a secret. And I think she's had a couple of tragic bereavements. Two of her children have died and another was involved in a really tragic accident.

He survived, but he's been deeply affected by it. So, I mean, she's an amazing, an amazing woman. And she's had a lot of success in later life because of her writing. And I say good luck to her. The other one that i'd like to see more of is nicky haslam i'm less fixated on because nicky haslam once did a list of things he thought were common were you on it woman's hour was we were absolutely shattered and i bet the oboe didn't feature at all yeah he did say

he said the oboe was common yeah he did, I remember that yeah he definitely said it anyway it's Tuesday how many more sleeps until the coronation Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday four sleeps until we can crack open another

Colin the Caterpillar coronation cake in Westminster so hugely looking forward to that. And if there are some people who are sort of slightly put off the BBCs, I'm going to say it, slightly dull coverage of these events. What we can guarantee you on Times Radio is a little bit more perk. More perk than balding. Is that what we're going with? Oh, she won't be listening, will she?

Let's hope not. Good night. Bye. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man, it's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he was an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on

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