Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Almost like ABBA... almost (With Clare Balding and Lemn Sissay)

Episode Date: September 5, 2023

Jane is still off so another one of Fi's friends has stopped in. Clare Balding joins Fi to discuss cat monogamy, fear of carrots and tattoo choices. Plus, Lemn Sissay OBE is here to discuss his new collection of poetry 'Let the Light Pour In' and his adaptation of Kafka's 'Metamorphosis'. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve SalusburyTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I can repeat that. We can repeat everything, Claire. See what I did there? It's a tiny gag. So look, it's an appalling one as well. Start again. No, let's just keep going. That's my motto for life, Claire. Just keep going. Claire Balding is our special guest presenter today and tomorrow on The Afternoon Show and here on the podcast.

And I just couldn't be happier. I think I've known you. We're not busy mates, are we? Let's not pretend to be something that we're not. But I would class you as a friend. I always thought you were a friend. And I'd be quite upset if you said you weren't. No, no.

I mean, you know, we've got each other's numbers, we WhatsApp. But we don't go on holiday together, do we? No, God no, I don't know. No. No, don't ask. But I've been for dinner. Yes. Well, Sunday lunch, actually. So can I just tell one tiny, tiny, funny anecdote about that?

Because you came over to East London with your lovely partner, Alice, and it's always a joy to see her too. She's got the most delicious kind of very very pithy dryness about her hasn't she? Yes she's very good at the undercut. I mean what I'm

trying to say. Do you know what I mean? She's very grounded I'm a dreamer. I'm a bit scared of her Yeah well everyone is. I tell you what she's really useful if you want someone to be scared. Yes. Particularly on the phone. Yeah, I bet.

Anyway, you came over to East London because you wanted to interview my dog, not because you wanted to see me, and that's absolutely fine. Most people come for the dog. Nancy, rescue Greyhound, and you've been very kind and written a bit about her in your latest book, which is out in time for Christmas, I think, Claire. It is, it's out next month. Excellent.

Thank you for the plug. But Nancy does feature quite strongly as as therefore do you yes but we went for a little walk and i said you got it if you're coming all the way over to east london because you live quite a long way away uh you've got a uh safe supper uh you said what will it be i said okay well we could probably do a roast chicken and you said can i have bread sauce al Alice was quite cross with me for that. She said, you cannot then ask for bread sauce? I said, yes, I can. And anyway, Hector, your son, made the most fantastic. And I'm very appreciative of people's cooking

because I know for people who can cook, they just think that's an everyday achievement. Yeah, you know, roast dinner, roast lunch, whatever. I'm really impressed. To me, that's like magic because neither Alice nor I are particularly good in the kitchen. Can't really, no, no, can't do that sort of thing. But I can make bread sauce because obviously you can do it with a packet.

Yes, I know we made it from scratch. I know, I was impressed with that too. But what we hadn't appreciated was your lovely kittens. Oh, Barbara and Brian. Yes. Loved Barbara and Brian. So they are being delightful, actually, Claire, because they're not growing very big.

So they're still quite small. And really, when you get kittens, you don't want a cat. You just want kittens, don't you? And they're brother and sister, but they look completely different. Well, I think they do have different dads. Oh, that happens a lot. Thank you for backing me up on that, because lots of people think I'm just going mad.

No, lots of cats will have a litter of kittens. And, you know, if it's a British Blue, for example, two might come out as a British Blue and then you suddenly get a black one and a tabby, if she's been, you know, in a general area. In a kind of polyamorous cat thing. They'll only be monogamous if there's only one boy available. OK. If you see what I'm saying. Yes. I know exactly what you're saying. all know somebody like that claire uh can i just say one more thing before we leave the subject of food uh because i don't know whether you know this but

uh you came on the previous incarnation of this uh with alice uh jane and i had hijacked you oh yeah you just yes you just shouted at us in that kind of, Alan! Alan! Claire! Alice! Claire! Alice! And we eventually had to, oh, my God, I think they're shouting at us. So you came over and chatted to us, and you told us a very, very funny anecdote about the Archbishop of Canterbury coming over,

and the fact that neither of you cooks. No, he didn't come over to our house. Don't ruin it now. No, we weren't. This is what we've told people. Okay, what have you said? That he comes over quite regularly. No, we go't. This is what we've told people. Okay, what have you said? That he comes over quite regularly. No, we go to, no.

You go to the house. Yes. Well, it's much of a muchness. But it then led to a conversation about the fact that you and Alice don't really cook. So you have quite a lot of ready meals from one of the finer stores, which then, because a lot of our lovely listeners picked up on this, became known as Claire Balding's. So you have quite a lot of people who, you know,

when their other half comes in from work or the kids come home from school, they go, Mum, whoever, what's for dinner? They go, a Claire Balding. And it means, you know, a very nice, pingable meal from one of the high street supermarkets. With vegetables. Can I just point out? But since the onset of all this ultra processed food knowledge that I now have by listening to interviews that you have done, I'm a bit concerned about the pingable meals.

So so we now have not every single week because I've been away a lot working. But when I'm home and there's both of us and we know we're there for at least three nights we're in we'll have a box delivered with all the things that then you cook to a recipe but I'm not allowed to do it because I add extras that's the fun of cooking I know but as you pointed out Alice can be quite scary so I just say okay you can do it and and then I'll clear up that's fine I don't mind and is it actually inculcating in you both or just one of you an actual desire to cook no it's not so much the desire it's not because we don't want to it's just that we we can follow recipes I may and

I actually obviously like to go off piste and add things to a recipe. And that's what that's where disagreements can arise. You know, perfectly good naturedly. But I think it's that we both are a bit. We are scared of cooking. It's pathetic, right? I'm in my 50s and Alice is a little bit older. And neither of us feel confident enough in the kitchen. I know that's quite sad.

Well, that is Claire, because I think, I always think that you are one of those people who doesn't really have the same levels of fear as normal mortals like myself. Because you just seem to accept every challenge, do everything that's asked of you. I can't imagine you being scared of a carrot. Finding a lentil a little bit over-impressive.

I think it's the mixture of things. I can do what I can do. I can make a really, really good chicken, bacon, avocado salad with green beans, just lightly, you know, still crunchy, but kind of slightly cooked. What's that called? Blanched. Blanched. Blanched, okay.

That's the word I was thinking of. I can do that. I can make various quite good pastas. Alice does a really good carbonara, but you can't have that every night. No. Well, you can, but you'll be very unwell. So you shouldn't. Shall we just say a huge thank you to Karen for your lovely

email. That's very kind of you to send that. We don't need to read it because we'd sound like Steve Wright. We would. Was it a loving the show email? Loving the show. Love you. Love you both. It it one of them? So I don't think Steve would mind us saying this. The clapping thing, do you think that he'll still do that

if he ever goes to a different radio station? Well, it wasn't that he did it off mic. It's that if you were ever guesting on Steve Wright in the afternoon, you would be told to clap around the microphone at the end because that creates the impression that there are lots of you in the afternoon, you would be told to clap around the microphone at the end because that creates the impression that there are lots of you in the studio. So do a single clap, just like that, in front of the mic. OK, and now we're both going to clap around the mic. Does that sound like lots of people?

Eve's nodding. Anyway, Steve Wright. Well done. He always made me laugh actually always made me laugh I'm sorry I made it sound like

he's died he's not died he's just on Sunday now that's death to some broadcasters right I used to can I just

I used to do Sunday shows so did I well we both did Sunday shows why is that well I tell you what it doesn't half ruin

your weekend and I say that with great love and affection because actually my lovely producer who did my sunday show um for the four or five years that i did it it was called janet mcclarty sent me a message when i was on with you this afternoon not that i had my phone on obviously because that would be unprofessional um but i had the wi-fi on sent me a message saying she was listening just so i tried to be i tried to be

better because i knew janet was listening oh janet well come be better because I knew Janet was listening. Oh, Janet. Well, come in, Janet. Come in every day, actually, Janet. Just ping Claire tomorrow to make sure she's as bright as she has been today. We had a lovely show, actually, didn't we? Yeah. Lots of different things in it.

And Lem Cisse is our big guest, and we will play out that interview in just a couple of moments' time. We also talked to Sunday Times journalist Pauna Bell about her tattoos because she's got loads of them and she'd been on holiday, was it to France? Yes, and she'd had an incident with a man in a restaurant who she heard quite clearly sort of saying, well, she wouldn't have any manners because she's got tattoos. And she's written a bit for Sunday Times Style, hasn't she? If you had a tat, what would you have?

Well, you do have a tat. I know, but it's tiny. It's Times Style, hasn't she? If you had a tat, what would you have? Well, you do have a tat. I know, but it's tiny. It's almost irrelevant, isn't it? It's not like, you know, when you think someone's got a tattoo. It's a tiny fish on my ankle. And it's not, it's no biggie. And what sort of a fish is it? It's an angel fish.

And is it on the outside or the inside of your ankle? Outside. And is it on the right ankle or the left ankle? Right. Right ankle, outside. Is this so that you can identify me on the outside or the inside of your ankle? Outside. And is it on the right ankle or the left ankle? Right. Right ankle, outside. Is this so that you can identify me on the slab in a crime drama? Yes, when we're exactly right. Yeah.

Yeah? OK. I'll just have to use your dental records. Because you don't have a tattoo, or do you? No, I don't have a tattoo. I've got a scar on my left knee, if you need to identify me. Just so you know, if that's, you know. And a scar just there between my eyes.

That was from falling over in the shower. And a scar under there on my bottom lip, which was really my brother's fault. OK. And the one on your leg? Oh, cartilage out. Oh, OK. Right. That's probably why I got my injury, actually, that I've been suffering with the last few days, but it's magically disappeared.

Anyway, tattoo, what would I get? Alice is quite keen to get a tattoo actually she does talk about this is it something that she might do um and she said very sweetly that she'd get our initials intertwined but i don't know that that would necessarily i was thinking because there have been various stories i think adam peaty might be the latest one but people having tattoos removed that they might have had that were connected to something. And, you know, Alice might regret that one day when I cook a bad meal and she says, get out. She might then not want the tattoo with A, A, C, B.

Yep. I've just written it down as C, A, B, A. Oh, that's quite good. Cabba. Almost like Abba. Almost. Oh, yeah. And you can make the B go back. Almost like ABBA. Almost. Oh yeah. And you can make the B go back. No, not really. No. Doesn't work.

But do... I'd have, I don't know, a dog. I'd have a dog's, yeah, I'd have a little dog's head. I couldn't believe the statistic that one in four people in the country have a tattoo now. And that it's a really ancient thing. So the oldest body they found, mummified body, that's like 5,600 years ago with tattoos. So it's a really ancient thing.

And back in Egyptian times, women specifically used to do it with coal or something. I'm quite interested to know how tattoos change when your skin really, really wrinkles. So you know when you get that very, very crepey skin of old age, what happens if you've had a very intricate tattoo? Because I don't think there are very many people in their kind of 80s and 90s now

who've had the whole kind of, you know, sleeves and things like that that people have now. So have you got any pictures of that. Yeah, but I was also told that you've got to be very careful when you're asking people about their tattoos. You shouldn't just bowl up and go, why have you got tattoos then? What's that of? Yeah, so why should you?

I think people get tattoos for lots of reasons and sometimes they may not want to talk about it, even if it's a really obvious thing and you go, well, why would you do that where everyone can see it? It's not. You just have to be a little bit respectful and careful. I'd never thought of that, actually. And I know that loads of times I have literally pointed at people's skin

and gone, ooh, what's that? What do you have that done for? Yeah, so now I will know. Dear Fi and Claire, oh, what's that? What do you have that done for? So now I will know. Dear Fee and Claire. That's my name. I've said it quite often. It should be better. Dear Fee and Claire.

Great show today. Lem's spot was very moving. It was actually. It's an interview really worth hearing. I was painting whilst listening. The title of the painting was Hair Today Gone... You both inspired me. This is from Veronica, who goes on to say,

I was a headteacher and retired in 2020. The budget for the school was about £1.2 million and the government funding out of that was about £8,000 to £10,000 for repairs per year. The problem with school buildings has been a long time coming. And that's to do with the rack it is concrete issue and you know what more and more of those stories are going to come out about how many head teachers and caretakers have been saying for years even if it wasn't rack

this is a shoddy environment and it it's amazing how often people, you know, whether it's councils, government, whatever, say, oh, why are we spending that on, you know, annual repairs? We don't need to do that. That's the Hammersmith Bridge issue. Yes. Why are we spending £5,000 on oiling those, you know, those nuts? We don't need to do that.

Oh, look at that. Bridge has been closed for about five years. You'd better explain we have quite a global audience for this. Hammersmith Bridge in London. Yeah, under which the boat races pass. So consequently, I see it. Well, I see it quite often anyway, because I don't live very far from there, but still closed to traffic.

So people and bikes, I think, now allowed on it, but been closed to traffic for, I think it is about five years, five, six years. And completely, therefore, cuts off one quite important thoroughfare across the River Thames in London and creates traffic issues elsewhere. And because it was deemed unsafe, because regular upkeep, to come back to the point about, you know, the problems that you get if you leave, if you don't take care of your buildings or your bridges or your, you know, can happen with a rural community as well. It pretty quickly goes rogue and becomes unsafe. Yep. As we are all finding out now.

Pippa has emailed in wanting to talk about The Woman in the Wall on the iPlayer and to recommend it. We do quite a lot of recommending of the TV shows and stuff. Oh, can I recommend something then? Please do. Have you seen Deadlock? Oh, I love it. I've watched it all.

Is it on Amazon Prime? It's on Amazon Prime. Oh, it's so funny. I absolutely love you. I've been recommending it for months, actually. And no one else has said, I've seen that. So we know we started a whole thing where loads and loads of people have enjoyed it, too. And in fact, and I'm sorry, I can't remember the name, but I'll get back to you tomorrow and give you a proper name check in the podcast.

name but I'll get back to you tomorrow and give you a proper name check in the podcast but one of my Twitter followers had said how much she enjoyed it but just really really wanted something. You know that feeling when you come to the end of a really good thing. You want to put something in the void. So you wanted more recommendations. So if

you go beyond Deadlock what would you be recommending at the moment? Do you have anything? Because I had to go backwards in my back catalogue of good TV because I couldn't find anything after Deadlock. That's because we've only just finished Deadlock so I'm in that post-Deadlock, what next? Oh, okay. So you're asking the question, not answering it. I'm afraid

I am. Okay. Have you done Spiral? I recommended Spiral. No, I haven't done Spiral. I'll put that in my notes. Well, that's very good. You get eight seasons of that. It's in French with subtitles, but it's very, very good. It's very, very French. Okay, but I've got to actually be watching and not playing Rummy Cub while

it's on. Okay, fine. Spiral. So we will try and recommend some other things. I've not started The Woman in the Wall yet just because I wanted something a little bit less emotional, actually,

and I know that that's going to be emotional. It's Ruth Wilson and it's the story of the Magdalene laundries in Ireland. Mrs Carter on Netflix. I've been recommended that. I haven't watched it yet. And Mr Inbetween on Disney+, but I don't have Disney+. I mean, honestly, there comes a point. Mr Inbetween.

Have you got Disney+. I do have Disney+. I know. It's come to that. Mr Inbetween. Have you got Disney Plus? I do have Disney Plus. I know. It's come to that. And these come from a decent person? We trust this recommendation? Yes, we do. Well, there you go.

Let's get a second and third source on that, shall we? Well, we should, shouldn't we? But look, it's chucked in there for now. Right, shall we get to the big interview of the day then? Would you like me to do the cue? Do you want to do the cue? No, I think you should do it. You did it beautifully earlier, I thought. Well, that's very kind. I had a bit of a hiccup actually in the first paragraph. I'm going to try and do it better now. Go for it. Go on then. Cue fee. Lem Cissé is one of our country's finest writers in poetry and prose. He sees things caught in the ether that many of us don't and he turns them into words and the results are beautiful. But if you want that in a long list of achievements

with no beautiful phrases wrapped around it, you can have that too. Lem was the official poet for the London 2012 Games. He's been an artist in residence at the South Bank, authored more than a dozen books, presented documentaries referencing his early life in care, and he's written his memoir, My Name Is Why. And this autumn, he has a compilation of poetry out called Let the Light Pour In.

He's also working on a new adaptation of Kafka's Metamorphosis with the theatre company Frantic Assembly. So we began by asking him why anyone would need to go and see a new adaptation of Metamorphosis. What does it bring to the now? Oh, it's very now. It was brought out, it was written, published as a novella 120 years ago. And it is about a man who finds himself uh locked in a room and i think we've all

sort of experienced that uh sense that you get when the world around you has changed and you're trying to make sense of things and of yourself and that's right at the heart of what um what metamorphosis is about about the change in a human being, one man in one house. The pandemic is not mentioned, the P word, just so you know. The P word is not mentioned, it's not referred to, but actually I think we had a sense of what this central character is going through in the play, I think. And Frantic Assembly does things a little bit differently, correct?

Yeah, they're still in the West End with the boy who, the incident. Oh, yeah, the curious incident of the boy in the night time. Yes, yeah, they are the theatre company that put that together. They're quite extraordinary. They started in the late 1980s. They're all about movement. late 1980s they're all about movement they're all about interpreting the the the line in movement and we're all doing that all the time but it's it's a i'm assuming therefore it's a one it's a one person no it can't be no it's it's the mother the father the daughter and the son. The son wakes up one morning when he's supposed to be going to work

and he doesn't know it straight away, but he is transformed into what's known in the novella as vermin. He's transformed into a beetle of some sort or other. But he doesn't know that. He can't go to work. He can't contribute to the upkeep of the family. And the biggest word in the play, in the novella, I should say, is metamorphosis, the title, what he's going to go through.

But there's a change in... I'm into family dynamics. And there is change in every character in this play. We all think it's about, like The Fly, you know, the film The Fly, it's about the transformation of this man into something. But is this about him? Is this about him? I think we've... Our take... Sorry. No, I was just going to ask you how old you were

when you first read the novella. And when you go and see it, would you think that you would automatically key in to the person who is closest to you in age? Is that one of the points of it, that you could be every person in the piece? I've written so many books and plays. I didn't go to university and I didn't go to college.

And I can't remember reading the novella. But I do remember knowing, like most people, that it is about somebody who changes. So this was my first opportunity to look at, read the novella and find where I might be able to, what I might be able to see so that I could explore it for an adaptation into a play. And, Lem, your understanding of family dynamic is so individual. It is. It is with all of us, ultimately.

But, yes, I was sort of thrown out of a family, you could say. Yes, yes. I was in children's homes as a child, so I saw the dynamic with other children who'd been thrown out of their family in one way, shape or form. And hopefully I've been able to... I can empathise with people who are in families as well, you know, because we all have our journeys.

We all have our moments where we realise we're independent of our family, we are a... we're almost separate, but we are utterly belonging as well it's a complex kind of uh story and then we have children ourselves and we see them doing it you know the literal metamorphosis of them growing in from child to adult of them interpreting you as a parent. Yeah, but what we know about this play is that it's all about him. And what I think is that it's all about her.

Oh, hello. Yeah, we did. Yes, lean in. Honestly, when you see it and you read the novella it's staring you in the face and you're like well you you you two wouldn't be saying this but I was was like how's this not been seen the last play the last, the last line of the novella is given to her. And it's the parents mentioning what her transformation is. So how is that not written throughout the play in ways that Kafka has done really cleverly? I don't think it's about the man.

So you can see Kafka's metamorphosis on stage starting in starting in plymouth in fact all the team are down there i've got to mention scott graham the director he's the genius behind this he's the person who asked me to to write it he's the magic really and and the actors as well and i know it ends up at the lyric hammersmith that's right yeah it's going to manchester and various other places around the country claire and I are both very, very smitten with your poetry. Claire, you found one that you immediately sent to your partner. I did, I did. So this is a collection of poetry.

Everything is only four lines long. Yes. It is wonderfully quotable, but within those four lines, so much is said. And all of them were written early in the morning, I think at dawn, and we'll talk about that. But this is the one I sent to Alice. If I were a desert island, here's what I'd do.

I'd build me a jetty and wait for you. I think that's absolutely beautiful. That's a wonderful thing for me to hear, because you write these alone, on your own, going through whatever you're going through every morning. And so for it to form a bridge to you and then to your partner is just a joy for me. That's exactly what this is about.

And I think it's what poetry is about, actually. It's about connecting and connecting people. It really is. So tell us about the concept of the book. Did you know at the start that you were going to write all of these poems every day at dawn and then turn them into a compilation? No, I didn't. Because they go out on Twitter and, well, X,

and they go out on Facebook and Instagram and stuff. And I've not got a massive following, actually. And every time you say, I've got, you know, I've got, oh, yeah, I've got 20,000 or I've got 200,000, you know, there's always some. There's a dog in Wisconsin that's got more followers always be a dog in wisconsin yeah but i put them out and some of them are not as good as others and this book is the best of them but i like the idea i like the idea idea of creating something first thing in the morning and then offering it out to people so that they can like it or dislike it. It's their choice.

But for me, it's a creative exercise. I'm like if I was a mechanic from Wigan, I would love studying the Fiat 902 from 1974 you know what i mean it's basically me waking up in the morning getting with with something creative that i believe in i love doing and doing it and then putting it out there knowing that somebody might not like it okay well that's brave lynn barber always said that she couldn't start functioning as a creative being every day until she had had a cigarette. That was her, and now my brain's in gear. So is this poem your kind of equivalent?

Until you've done it, you don't click into the creativity. Biggest thing I did in my life, Fee, I stopped smoking. Oh, it is a biggie. There's a total tangential link with what you've just said. I'm always happy to talk about smoking, actually. You know, I believe i did it but i did it fee and i did it a year and a half ago because i wrote a children's book and i didn't want to sit in front of the children it's when i was doing my read anyway the point is i stopped i've been trying to stop for years 20 years i'd say i've been trying to sit in all seriousness. And I stopped smoking. Out of interest, did you start this straight after you'd stopped smoking?

No. It's not quite that neat. Well, this is a really good question because I've always woken up at 5, 5.30 in the morning. It's not a great attribute. It's just the way it is. Even in the winter? So it's nothing to do with daylight?

Straight throughout. Except for when I... No, no, I always wake at 5. Even in the winter? So it's nothing to do with daylight? Straight throughout, throughout. Except for when I, I mean, if I was, no, no, I always wake at 5.30 in the morning, OK? Now, when I smoked, I could go outside and have a cigarette or go into another room and have a cigarette, wherever place I did. But since stopping smoking, I've not got the same impetus to get up,

although I wake up at 5.30. Anyway, this is all regardless of the poems. But it's not, because I think this is your drive to get up, although I wake up at 5.30. Anyway, this is all regardless of the poems. But it's not, because I think this is your drive to get up. You get up and write the poem. The very first one, the very first one in the book, which doesn't necessarily mean it was the first one you wrote, but the first one in the collection, is how do you do it, said night.

How do you wake up and shine? I keep it simple, said light light one day at a time that poem was uh requested by a professor from the university of manchester when i was chance i was chancellor there for a while and um she was ill and um she asked me to write it out i was asked through her colleague to write it out take it to her and, and she'd look at it every day. She already looked at it every day because it was on Twitter, but she asked me to write it out and I wrote it out to her. And, oh, this is a bit...

But her... The next call was from... I knew what was going on and why she wanted it, and she'd said, but the next call was her son at her funeral asking permission to read the same poem um for her so these these touch people how do you do it said night how do you wake and shine i keep it simple said light one day at a time and that's those four lines could be held right in the middle of a storm you've come such an enormously long way lem from the first job you had running your own guttering business gutter

cleaning in atherton in lancashire yeah there you go do do you enjoy your success? Because you've always struck me as someone who might be a bit questioning about where they've come from and where they're travelling to. Would that be fair? I'll tell you, enjoying success is... You've got to learn to enjoy yourself. Enjoying success. I don't see myself as successful. I really don't.

I really don't. I mean, look. Oh, sorry, I've just hit the microphone. That's quite all right. It's quite resilient. But when I read out that introduction at the beginning, so you've been the chancellor of a university, you've published 14 books,

you've been an artist in residence at the South Bank. I mean, these are really, they are definitions of success, aren't they i uh my the truth is is that i'd give i'm okay by the way i just need to say that i'm okay but i would give it all away if at any point of any of those awards or obe as well you Well, you missed that one, by the way, but I just thought I'd say. But any of those things, I'd give it all away, give every one of them back to have a family member who would have come to any one of those events.

What I'm trying to say is that I've never felt successful because I've never had a context for success. There's no dad who was a minor who said, go on, little son, you've gone to university. You know, gosh, the letters I got from some of the students, parents, watching their sons and daughters get their degrees from me this year will make you weep, OK? They're just beautiful.

One from a guy who said, he said, I work with my hands, but I watched my daughter get her degree from you. And he just told me about how proud he was. I didn't have never had that. I mean, never. OK, so my idea of success is not I've always looked out and known what's not there. I don't need pity. I'm happy, you know, as I am.

But but the point is, is that the idea of success to me would be to have a family. So I love to watch people who have families because I get a kick out of it. But that's my idea of success. So for people who don't know your story, and I always hate to kind of say, you know, in brief, this is it, because it's your whole life. It's fine. But your mum had you uh in Wigan

she gave you up for adoption but she very much wanted you she didn't give me up for adoption yeah she I was never adopted you were temporarily going I took the government to court about this remember and I settled out of court and it was covered and you know etc but uh yeah my mum came to the country she had me as a child she was in a mother and baby home she wouldn't sign the adoption papers the social worker gave me to foster parents the foster parents thought i was theirs forever and then they put me into care when i was 12 and and then from then from 12 on i've been in care and then yeah found my family as an adult and also you were always told that your mother had rejected you, weren't you? Yes, that's right.

No, no, I have a letter of her in 1968 pleading for me back to the social worker. So I've proved all of this, you know. And I'm not against my foster parents as well. They did the best as they could with what they had. I'm not against anybody in this story. It's a story of people trying their best and doing the worst. Yeah. And that happens.

And your contact with your mother, it just didn't... It's not easy when you come back and you find a... When you find your mother, which is often the case that you're around the same age that your father was. So the last time my mum saw my father was when she saw me when she saw me she hadn't seen him since then you know and I was his age so there's a lot to deal with there all of our relationships with our parents are complex and this is even more complicated so I understand why my mother might have found it difficult and still find it difficult to communicate with me

because she's got her own story of loss of me. And do those feelings of wanting someone to turn up and be there for you as your backup, how much do they change the older you get? Do they change at all a lot this didn't this discussion come from it came from something really specific that was only tangentially linked to not having a family there and I can't remember what it was but um you become more clear with your own story and accepting of it i used to be like every relationship i'd

have i'd be there'd be a moment and i'd be like i need to now now that we're in love i need to introduce you to the dead bear and i'd open the door outside the restaurant and i'd drag in the dead bear i said i know you've smelt it well this is it and i want you to accept me and my dead bear you know my story my past this, that and the other. We've all got it, got one. The thing is, since forgiving my foster mum and since growing a little bit as well, there's no dead bear.

If there's any smell, it's me. And I have to take responsibility for it. So I think all of our stories lead to lessons that form bridges. And maybe it's why you're capable of writing this. I am not defined by darkness, confided the knight. At dawn I am reminded I am defined by light. Thank you, Claire, yeah. That was my absolute favourite one in that poetry.

It is just so difficult to encapsulate an emotion and a sense in such a short form of words and i do think so many that you do and as soon as you walked in i said to you they should be on t-shirts they should be on mugs they should be on posters they should everyone should be able to pick their favorite poem from this collection let the light pour in and put it where they're going to see it on their pillow when they wake up and when they go to bed at night it's the last you know the last thing and the first thing um and i said i've always wanted to be able to sort of do that and i've not really been able to just get basically over 50 you know like the the idea of building a shopify shopify website and and doing that because poetry is good for that oh yeah and you were talking about

emily dickinson as well i think there's a real influence of emily dickinson yes yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's often a really understandable failing from creative people not to be able to really kind of merch up i think you know we can forgive you for that but somebody else should be doing it for you then that's the point can i read you one four-liner? Yes, please do. I will build an embassy in your heart over time. There's a plot of land inside me. Build one in mine. Frantic Assembly's adaptation of Metamorphosis will open at... Plymouth?

The name of it. Oh, sorry. I was doing that from memory. The Theatre Royal Plymouth on the 11th of September. It then tours the UK. It finishes up with a four-week in situ at Lyric Hammersmith. And I think you and I should go to that with Jane Garvey. Oh, that would be brilliant.

Let's do that as a top night out. And Alice, obviously. Obviously. But Jane might come if, you know, if she knows there's four of us and she doesn't have to talk to me. She won't want to talk to me either. No, she might not. Let the Light Pour In is published on the 21st of September

and it's really beautiful and I think we've made that clear to him in person. But I just think, I love poetry anyway and as I said to him, I love Emily Dickinson. And I think there's a real kind of influence of that. But I just think when you distill your thoughts into four lines

and you do it when every single word is so carefully, beautifully chosen, it's, there's this fantastic art and should be therefore, you know, mass produced and spread around. And I hope, you know, shared by millions. Yeah. And actually reading the book, it just gives you those lovely, tiny little pinpricks of joy, doesn't it? Because the stanzas, I'm not as poetry adjacent as you are. Is that the right thing? Verse will do won't it? They're so tiny but they're just

they give you a moment of joy And each one a bit like a haiku but each one is a separate poem but you could read it as a continuous one long poem of different, as you say, stanzas or verses, whichever you prefer but it's clever as well.

And there are moments when it's really funny. I was just trying to one, there's one that is a love poem from, you know, you know when your predictive text gets it all wrong? Oh, yes. Yeah, there's one of those. That's funny. Have you found it?

I found it. Autocorrect love poem. Right, which is the first line. So autocorrect love poem. Right, which is the first line. So auto-correct love poem. I live yob. It's like that. I like that. So my WhatsApp at the moment keeps on changing.

Thank you to I honk you, which is just so weird. Mine keeps doing much to Koch with a capital K. K-O-C-H, what's that about? What is that word? Thank you so Koch, every time. No, seriously, you must understand that I'm trying to say thank you so much. So thank you so Koch from Claire and I honk you from me and we'll regroup at the same time tomorrow. Well done for getting to the end of another episode

of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fi Grava. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.

Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know, ladies. A lady listener. I'm sorry.