Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Another sturdy-booted middle age lady going about her business (with Matt Willis)

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

It's almost the end of the week and there's lots to get through! Jane and Fi discuss surprising dog breeds, the tribulations of motherhood and Jane passively getting the munchies... Plus, they're joined by the Busted bass player Matt Willis to discuss his battle with addiction and his podcast 'On The Mend'. If you've been affected by any issues discussed in today's episode then email [e-mail] and we will point you in the direction of places to receive help. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

VoiceOver describes what's happening on your iPhone screen. VoiceOver on. Settings. So you can navigate it just by listening. Books. Contacts. Calendar. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day. Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Literally just eating your way through today.

Just non-stop. Oh, no, don't. No. Is that a toffee? No, it's not. You're not going to do that clacky sound. Do you know what they've done? They do a toffee eating. What have they done? They're not going to do that cracky sound. Do you know what they've done? They've changed the wrappers on Quality Street.

Oh, I know. They're all wax paper, aren't they? Is it not doing it for you? It's happened to this once proud nation of ours. Too much wokery, isn't it? It's environmental, isn't it? Well, I think it's quite a good thing. Does it really make a difference, Jane? Not the chocolate.

Move with the times. I've moved to the times. Thought that was quite good. No response. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Say that again. Well, it's not going to work the second time,

so just forget it. Quick email from Jenny. Hi, Jane and Fee. I've got girl-boy twins. I'm always amused by the number of people who always ask if they're identical. Best wishes, Jenny. Hi, Jane and Fee. I've got girl-boy twins. I'm always amused by the number of people who always ask if they're identical. Best wishes, Jenny. Yeah, doesn't make much sense.

Oh, now, there was a fantastic one about kids, two twins who just don't really... Oh, here it is. Don't really get on that well. Oh, great. I don't... No, I'm not sure whether you want your name broadcast. Probably not.

So let's just not. I have identical twin boys who are now 28 years old they're not particularly close and don't speak to each other that often they weren't close as children even though they're like the same things I never made any reference to their twinness and actively avoided it but other people always wanted to refer to it and talk about how they had a best friend for life which I thought was a bit strange I think I did everything to be as anti-twin in their upbringing as possible as I wanted them to be seen as separate people. I never dressed them the same, weird to me, but each to their own. And the first time that happened was when they started

school and had to wear the same uniform. They are now two individual adults with their own lives who happen to be born together. That's it it society puts weight on the opinion that twins should be close and this can level guilt towards the parents if they're not i know i felt this guilt when they were growing up even though i knew it was ridiculous i've grown out of that thought process now we've had lots of discussions about it as a family too they both said when they meet new people they say they have a brother rather than a twin they would be there for each other if needed and that's good enough for me. And you go on to say normal service will narrow his humour

and I will continue my car commentary to myself because usually this lovely listener just has a chat with us and shouts at us and answers us back while she's in the car but doesn't feel the need to email. But we're very glad that you did because that's an interesting point. It's a really interesting point and that's what I love about doing radio and podcasts is just that that you get the real truth about life yeah there are some twins who are really close do you know what there are also some twins who aren't that close but i think we should all take heart from um i think the very

sincerely made point that if needs be they would be there for each other yes like you hope any sibling would. Well, you know, my sister absolutely has been, and I'd like to think I've done the same for her. Well, let's ask her when she comes on as a special guest star next time you're on holiday. Never, ever coming on. Well, I would like to meet your sister.

No. As I've said before, I think we've got quite a lot to talk about. Alison, you're welcome round mine any time you like. She did briskly WhatsApp me from a hot tub in Wales today. My kind of girl. To ask about an Anne Tyler book. So she's just discovered Anne Tyler so she's a lucky woman.

And she said, I can't believe I've never read a book by this woman before. She's amazing. I tell you what, you don't want to start a good Anne Tyler in a hot tub. You'd never get out. You'd be a wrinkled prune by chapter 764. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Anyway, I hope she's all right because it's not really the best weather for a hot tub, is it? It's perfect weather. Really cold on the outside and then you're all lovely and warm inside. What I don't understand is the appeal of a hot tub in a hot climate. Why would you want to get into a hot bath when

you're already hot? She's in Wales, so I don't think that's affecting her. No, it's not troubling her. Can I just briefly, I love these stories, and you know the baby who talked really early? She's back. What's she doing now? The world's youngest talking baby, and there are speech marks around this,

doing an enormous amount of work, those speech marks. This is in the Mirror today. Has told her mum, guess what, at just eight weeks, she's told her mum. I don't know. There's no need to worry about artificial intelligence. No, she didn't say that. She did, though, apparently say, I love you.

I think that was more accurate. Proud Summer Galal, 30, claims her daughter, Belenti, said those precious... Sorry, what? Belenti said those precious three words two weeks after uttering her very first word, which is the underwhelming hello. Stunned Summer, an architect, said it was such an exciting moment. She was changing her nappy again, which, if you remember, was also the point at which she said, Hello, young Valenti.

But this time, I love you. I mean, that is progress, isn't it? We're in awe of her, says her mum. We think she's the world's youngest talking baby. Well, she may well be. And how fantastic. I look forward to hearing more. What will she be saying by the time she's one?

Well, I mean, you have to imagine she'll have written the complete works of Shakespeare by this time next month. On the subject of reading and writing, Camilla says this. Thank you so much for introducing me to this profound, complex and confusing book. This is our book club book, Boy Swallows Universe by Trent Dalton. It's not like anything I've ever read before. At the start, I was bewildered and didn't understand it, and I was tempted to abandon it. But I think books are like people.

They don't always reveal everything straight away. I think you're onto something there, Camilla. Sometimes you have to wait to get to know people. You have to put some work in before they show you who they are and become a friend. And it's the same with a lot of books. And she goes on to say, Jane, I've so far picked up on a vibe from your book club that some people only want to read books that are short, easy and pacey. Oh, how could you say that about me?

Books that give you everything on a plate instantly. But is that really how you want to live your reading life? Are you reading books that make it easy? Do you only pick friends who make it easy straight away? Do you only pick friends who make it easy straight away? I, can I just say, I do, I'm self-aware enough to know that no one's ever going to put on my gravestone, she was a grafter. Okay, that's all I'll say about that.

Well, I think it's a very harsh judgment. And aren't books like that just the equivalent of fast food, easy and filling, but not terribly nutritious? Well, Camilla, I mean, there are quite a few people. It's not just directed at you, Jane. There are quite a few people. Well, you're looking at me. You found Valerie Perrault's book a little bit too long

and therefore might find Boy Swallows Universe too long. But Camilla, I'm just completely with you. And I can't tell you how much I'm enjoying book club, actually. I haven't been very good at the book clubs in the real world, Jane, because when things get in the way, you know, I always think, oh, I'm a bit embarrassed to turn up because I haven't read the book and all of that. And they do, you know, I think book clubs do fall apart a bit,

actually, especially when you've got young kids and you can't always find the time and stuff. But I've really loved these three books. And I just, I would never have picked any of them. No, and that's the thing. You're right, that's the great strength of the book. And so we've actually announced today, haven't we, when we're going to, we sound so great. We've made an announcement. Very much like

Rishi Sunak, who just didn't seem terribly well today. No, I felt for the man as soon as he started speaking and you were right, you were right on the money when you said you'd rather fear that this AI safety summit has been a super spreader over there at bletchley park and the irony is that with all of that tech they really could have gotten a big old zoom call what they don't want is kamala harris to take a turn for the worse and pick up something because let's face it

she's uh well she's um possibly in a position you know where she might be required so we don't want her to be laid up um okay so um book club date is november the 24th yes that's right well done for remembering now um i like this email very much from a listener we don't need to mention her name but she says i've been meaning to get in touch for a while now since another listener emailed from hospital where she'd recently had surgery for lung cancer. I also have lung cancer. I was 48 when I was diagnosed three and a half years ago. I'd never smoked and I was living a fit and healthy life. It was a huge shock as you can imagine and as my diagnosis came at the beginning of lockdown it was also a very lonely place to be, despite having a wonderful husband and brilliant support from friends and family. I want to reassure the other listener

that she is not alone. There are many of us out there and there is some good support from various charities. The Roy Castle Lung Cancer Foundation is amazing and a good place to start as they can signpost you to other charities and offer good support themselves my cancer is incurable but thanks to amazing research leading to new treatments i'm living an active and happy life at the moment there are many people like me young fit healthy women who are being diagnosed with this disease would you be able to do a feature about lung cancer on your radio show as november is lung cancer awareness Well, we are going to do it because I know it's actually, it really is quite a common cancer and we all too easily associate

it with smoking. And I mean, I wouldn't want anyone to get lung cancer, but it is, I'm afraid, something that also happens to people who, like our correspondent here, have never smoked. Yeah. And that's Esther Ranson's point, isn't it, at the moment as well? So, yes, we will definitely do that. We are going to do it. Thank you for drawing our attention to it. And we send thoughts and love. And actually, I say that quite sincerely,

because lots of you write to us and we can't read out every single email that we get. But, you know, please do know that if you tell us quite serious things about your life, it does go in. We don't just kind of, you know, chuck them away and not think about them. I'm going to change the tone of the podcast,

though, now with a very brief email from Jude, who says, 12 years ago, I rescued a puppy from Battersea Dogs Home after months of speculation. I bit the bullet and ordered a doggy DNA test to find out which breeds were involved in this funny little creature. To my huge surprise, in brackets and confusion, it turns out that he's 50% Jack Russell and 50% Doberman.

Still can't work out how that happened. That's not to think about it too much. But you sent a picture of the little chappy. Oh. Sweetheart. That is, he is gorgeous. Yep. Is he having a little bath?

I don't know. I think he's just having a little hug. Oh, right. He's next to a washing machine, though. Oh. Yeah. Maybe there's been an accident. Love some lovely white goods in that house.

Absolutely wonderful. This is from Sandra. I haven't seen the ghost photo yet. No, that's because on reflection in that house. Absolutely wonderful. This is from Sandra. I haven't seen the ghost photo yet. No, that's because on reflection in the office, Sandra, the decision was taken. It did go on our story.

I apologise. I thought there'd been an editorial intervention. It was decided not to post the image because it was so frightening. But in fact, it has gone on a story. I don't know what they are. But it would have been and gone, wouldn't it? I think it was.

Sandra, you haven't missed much. I'll be honest with you. It's a couple of people dressed up in white in some ruins. No, but the person who took it, we can't doubt the veracity of her statement. Oh, I'm not. I'm sorry. Backtracking statement. Oh, I'm not. Sorry. Backtracking completely. I want to please everybody.

This has been such a frightening week of terrifying stories from you all. Asandra does say, Jane, when you do your spooky voice, you go so quiet, it's actually really hard to hear you in the car. I know, my spooky voice is very, very frightening. Do it again. Very frightening. On the young wives theme, my mum used to go to Keep Fit in the school hall at my primary school.

She never appeared to get any fitter, so I'm afraid we used to call it Keep Fat. That was in the 1970s. Do you know what, Sandra? I read that out because that's exactly what my sister and I used to do to our mum when she would keep... And I really regret it. It was so horrible.

Why did we do that? I've never lived in London, says Sandra. So I was amazed to hear that you didn't go walking on the Heath on a regular basis. We're always hearing about people meeting up on Hampstead Heath. Or maybe I just watch too many films. Well, I have been to Hampstead Heath, but it's because I don't really live anywhere near it. Do you go walking on hamster teeth so i do sometimes go walking on hamster teeth but that's because i've got a dog i don't think i'd go walking on the heath if i didn't if i'm honest but um but i mean thousands of londoners

are there of a weekend yeah it's a beautiful actually quite crowded i have been at the weekend and it's it's actually really difficult to move around without bumping into another sturdy, booted middle-aged lady going about her business usually with a mate.

I think it's a place where women meet a friend to properly let rip. Well, I think there are some other meetings Yes, indeed there are but not necessarily in broad daylight.

But do you know what? It is one of those tropes in films It is, it is. that you go for a windy blustery walk on Hampstead Heath and it's always the same point, actually.

It's above Parliament Hill Field, so you can see the magic view of London. And I love those tropes, because if you live in London, and actually I kind of think of myself as a Londoner because I've been here for so long. The other one is whenever they have a film shot on a bus, it's always on the top deck. Always. Always on the top deck. And you're always going past? You're always going past the Houses of Parliament. Of course. Yeah, Big Ben in the distance. It's a little known fact globally. Every single bus

in London does go past the Houses of Parliament. And also, there's never a rowdy teenager at the back, someone who's been asleep for a couple of hours. It just never happens. London buses are packed, in my experience, absolutely packed. Especially on days like today. But that's never reflected. We'll take more tropes from films, I think.

Yes, we will. But the other thing that's not reflected, you can't do it on films, is just, I mean, I've said it before, but when I come out of the tube station in my neck of the woods the smell of cannabis I'm going to use the old fashioned expression cannabis

the other night it knocked me sideways by the time I got home I was almost in a coma well you were probably just a little bit high no

I just yes I ate 16 packets of biscuits 27,000 marshmallows and felt at peace with the world totally at peace with the world no I at peace with the world.

No, I mean, it's just ridiculous. I mean, officially, it's supposed to be illegal. Do me a favour. Carry on. It might just be the kind of cannabis-flavoured vapes, though, because there are such things, and they do puff out an enormous great big thing of... You know, sometimes if you're walking past someone who vapes at the moment, you'll get a waft of popcorn or a waft of pineapple or a waft of mint well it's

the same thing you get a waft of weedy type smell it might not actually be weed you're a woman of the world thank you i'm learning so much that is the boundary of my knowledge um so we've got some quite serious responses to yesterday's dilemma of the wife who was thinking of divorcing her husband. And this one comes from someone who just describes herself, I think, as your Aussie correspondent. And it goes like this. It strikes me that the writer asking about leaving her husband has emailed you but has not talked to him. And this is the man she once loved has children with and still lives with what is his experience of this ask him tell him how you feel

he's not just a deliverer of emotional services to you he's a person and a soul on his own journey I think the writer might be asking the wrong question. Not should I stay or should I go, but perhaps what does my soul tell me about marriage, faithfulness and divorce? What am I yearning to do or have that I can't do or have within this marriage? And the correspondent suggests having a listen to this Jungian Life podcast for a hint at this approach. Five years ago, I left my husband of 20 years. We'd been unable to have children and I was unfulfilled and deeply unhappy. I found him cruel and controlling, although not inherently a bad person. We continued to work together remotely, but without seeing each other and even without speaking for months. After five years and a financial settlement,

we're in love again. We understand and appreciate each other again. Divorce is utterly brutal, financially, socially, spiritually. Make an effort to rediscover the man you once loved, explore the meaning of his infidelity and consider how you want your old age to be. It's messy, complicated and difficult to divorce, even if you repartner and form a new life. So there we go.

That's not a standard set of circumstances, is it? No, I think that's quite rare. Sorry, I've just, I've got my nicotine replacement therapy and it's gone down the wrong way. I've warned her about this. Well, say something. Well, I'm just looking, I thought perhaps there was a health and safety emergency. Rather than just bantering on podcast style, I ought to pay you a bit of attention.

I can't remember which of the two of us is the Red Cross trained operative. Gosh, I did do a training course, but it's a very long time ago, Jane. I've not topped up. Have you? No, I've never done the course at all. Have you not?

No, I haven't. Oh, lordy. I know. Absolutely nothing to be proud of, by the way. Let's just stick with that topic. This is from another listener. My heart goes out to your correspondent. I wonder if she realises the effect her loveless marriage has had and is having on her children.

I'm sure she has thought about it. This is the view of our correspondent. They will be more than aware of their parents' lack of feeling for each other. They will daily be suffering from the atmosphere in their home and would no doubt not be surprised, might even be relieved, when the decision to separate means they can live in peace and not have to deal with the bitterness between their parents. She should talk about it with them as soon as practicable.

She'll be amazed at how much they already know about the situation. Another thought, perhaps her husband is waiting for her to make the decision to separate, so he can't be blamed for splitting up the family. I suppose that is a possibility, isn't it? But of course, we have no idea because we don't know the man. Our listener says, I'm 75 and vividly recall the day 53 years ago, my mother told my father to leave the family home after years of his unfaithfulness and cruelty. Me and my three siblings felt nothing but relief that we and she didn't have to cope with my father's behaviour any longer nor continue to witness the detrimental

effect it had on our mother. We all cried with her but we were glad she had the strength to make a decision to ask him to go after 25 years of a marriage which had been fraught with many problems and a tragedy. I should say both my parents eventually remarried and they were happy. So that's something. 25 years is a huge chunk of time to be married. I know it's not unheard of for people to divorce after 25 years, but I imagine that's an incredibly tough thing to do yeah so to our correspondent who originally wrote in I'd say just give it a bit more time and I suppose the lovely thing about hearing the opinions of strangers is just finding

out which bit really pricks you because there might have been all kinds of responses that actually you weren't expecting to get and I hope that something along the way has made you go oh okay maybe that's the little thought that's kind of lurking in the the back of my head that hasn't quite got to the front yet yes I gosh this is such a tricky area and we are both we couldn't be keener to emphasize neither of us are remotely expert in anything, really. Well, we're not really remotely expert in our own lives, Jane. And I think we would both be capable of admitting that.

So I'm not proffering my advice in a kind of this will work for you way to anybody at all. Can we just move on to, this is another, it's another difficult area, but I do think it's quite important this the subject of having an overweight daughter stuck such a nerve with me that I wanted to share my own thoughts says this listener. My own daughter is overweight and I find myself alone amongst my friends in having to navigate this. Over the years many of my fellow parents have had to deal with under eating. I just feel unable to talk about having an overweight, let's use the unspeakable word, fat daughter.

Being very truthful, as I hope we can be in this space, it really bothers me and I'm not sure why. I cannot work out whether it's my own entrenched views on what normal is. I've always been slim and fit by virtue of genetics and being careful. Or is it society's view? I have horrendous guilt as well for caring so much about what she looks like. This is all happening, of course, alongside body positivity, embracing your curves, etc. Yet there are the same long term health concerns with being overweight as there are associated with being underweight. So why celebrate that? Gosh, I've considered if she's depressed, unhappy, etc. But I don't think so. But I do know she is unhappy with how she

looks. Thank you to that listener, because I don't think you are not alone, which is one of the reasons that we got onto the subject in the first place, obviously. And I just think this is we were having a conversation earlier, weren't we? Which is going to be broadcast next week with the historian and novelist Philippa Gregory about her fantastic new history of women in England. It's called Normal Women. And in it, there's so much detail in the book. It's absolutely fascinating. I really recommend it. But she talks about the way women have judged other women throughout history. And I think we have to own the fact that we have this internalised misogyny. We do care about how we look. We care about how our daughters look and our sons. But I've only got experience of daughters.

And I really feel for that listener because she wants to help her daughter. And she is right with that essential point that if her daughter were under eating then there would be no issue with her intervening there really wouldn't so what does she do here it's so tricky really really tricky um and I'm not sure I've helped but I wonder if anybody else has any other ideas I mean you love your daughter and you want to provide a safe and happy place for her to be at home. And you want to be available to her to talk about things if she wants to. But I mean, I'm, you know, I've supposedly talked for a living and I don't always find it the easiest thing to do to open up a conversation of that sort of nature with my own immediate family. Sometimes easier to do it professionally than it is to do it in my real life.

In fact, it's often a lot easier. So I wonder what your daughter thinks of other women who are in the public eye who are very proud of their larger bodies. And some of the most notable people being Lizzo, who has created, I think, just a whole new space actually for women to be large and curvy and proud and Adele for a while was in the same space yeah but Adele is a different shape now this is why the issue is so important and so confusing. Yeah, so maybe go into it asking your daughter what she thinks of her world around her

and all the images that she's getting. And do you know what, I do think sometimes it's just like with a friendship, isn't it, Jane? Sometimes when a friend of yours confesses their ignorance about a subject, it will take you by surprise. You'll think that they were so certain about something, but if they suddenly go, I don't know want to do with this thing in my life. And maybe, does the correspondent say how old her daughter is?

No. So I think sometimes it's exactly the same in parenting. You just have to say, I don't really know what I'm thinking about this. Do you know what you're thinking about this? Sorry, I've just realised she said adult children. So we're assuming that a bit like my kids, sort of in their 20s still at home so maybe it's easier if they uh you know no longer uh you know very young children to just confess your own ignorance about the whole subject and ask them to pile in on you

gosh I really feel for you, actually, and thank you for emailing. And I think you've been very honest. And by the way, thank you for also acknowledging that this is a safe space, and we absolutely always want it to be. And I think it's quite important to acknowledge the trickier areas of, I'm going to say motherhood,

because I think this is largely a motherhood thing. Well, I was just about to say, actually, I think it's incredibly dangerous to assume that it's only daughters who are going through all of that. No, no, I don't think it's only daughters. I mean, in the sense that I don't know whether men, I don't know whether fathers feel as connected to how their children look.

Oh, I don't know about that, Jane. Well, put it out there. to how their children look. Oh, I don't know about that, Jane. Well, just put it out there. And I think the dynamic of what your dad thinks about you is really pretty key in your upbringing. I don't know whether I just think it's this kind of, because of our internalised view of how women should be,

that maybe we are harder on I don't know I don't know, I mean let's just see what other people think about this because and also we don't actually know, I mean our listener thinks that their daughter is unhappy but she doesn't actually know But that's what I mean, ask her to tell you

to, you know ask her what she thinks your ignorance is and see what the answer is. It might surprise you. Shall we... Oh, we'll get on to Matt Willis in a moment, but sorry, I've just seen the other email I wanted to read out from a listener who, many years ago, when she was in her early 30s, with two young children and a husband who loved alcohol more than his family,

he wasn't abusive, he was just, in my view, a bit weak, she says. He had endless chances to turn his life around, but he just loved his lifestyle too much. I looked at myself in the mirror and said to myself, think about yourself in five years being in this situation. You would say, why didn't I do it five years ago? Why have I wasted my life? Precious time is given to us only once.

Trying to save something which doesn't give me love, respect and comfort, I cannot afford to waste these five years. So, our correspondent says, I left my home country. I got divorced. I emigrated to England with two small kids. The challenge associated with all this was nothing compared to waking up being that man's wife every day. Almost 20 years from divorce, I have never regretted my decision, even for a second. You've only got one life.

Kids will understand it. They already know there's something not right there. Okay, so, I mean, that correspondent has really been through it, come out the other side, and what a brave thing to do to move to England with your kids in that situation.

Now, our big guest. Our big guest today is Matt Willis. So we've been talking about addiction on the programme all week. We've had some really interesting conversations around it with family members, with an MP who's got some skin in the game. Her mother was an alcoholic and she's a Conservative MP. So, you know, she's now part of a government that is trying to deal with an increasing problem of addiction across society. So we've ended the week with the story of getting to a place of recovery um with matt willis so you might know him as the lead is it no he's bassist isn't he

and vocalist in busted do you know whether or not i've got that right, Jane. Well, Jane's making a face there. That's right. OK, pop figures. But he's also an actor. He's married to Emma Willis. He's won two Brits. He won I'm a Celebrity as well. But he's had a really, really difficult relationship with drugs and alcohol

that's led him to be in rehab, I think, three times. He is a recovering alcoholic and drug user now, and I think he's been clean for quite some time. So we wanted to talk to him about his story, about what addiction really feels like. He's got a podcast called On The Mend, where he talks to people who've got through similar experiences, and he made a documentary called Fighting Addiction,

which you can find on all platforms actually now so he came in this afternoon and we started by asking him to describe where he is at the moment. I'm very happily clean and sober and I have been for just over six years now yeah I'm in a really good place you know I kind of um I find talking about it really helps you know and um thank goodness absolutely absolutely that's why I'm here you know but um but that's what the podcast has been so great because I'm I'm interested in other people and how they get through hard times and how they kind of how they kind of deal with things and what kind of what tools they use and what kind of different um things they have because there isn't really a

one-size-fits-all I think I think if there was it'd be much easier but um I've used certain things in my life that have worked really well and I've sent people in that direction it hasn't worked for them so I'm I'm always on the hunt yeah I think it's a cracking podcast actually and we'll get on to talking about some of the episodes in a moment but I wonder whether you can take us back at uh you know slightly darker times very much darker times and just explain to people what addiction feels like when it is really really bad when it's really got a grip on you i mean it kind of um it kind of crept up on me if i'm honest i mean i i was taking drugs from a very early age like a teenager i was kind of um very into smoking weed like all of my friends were and

kind of drinking in parks and things but i would always always take it further than everyone else i always kind of tried to get as as kind of messy as i could with as little as i possibly could you know because we didn't have much money so we kind of used whatever we could really but um and it kind of um and it carried on then i I think being in the band, that was, I was a very functional alcoholic. You know, I was kind of, I didn't really realise it at the time, but I drank every day since I was about 16 until 26, you know. And I never really went a day without a drink. And drugs kind of came into my life much more towards the end of busted the first time round.

And they became a daily habit too. kind of came into my life much more towards the end of busted the first time around and um and they became a daily habit too and um and i read somewhere that you were actually taking the drugs in order to kind of sober up from all of the booze yeah i kind of um i i mean i stupidly called it a sharpener you know because um i was always just wasted i was always just drunk all the time and um and cocaine kind of kept me able to stay in the room a little bit more and kind of just drink for longer really you know until I eventually passed out you know so it's kind of they were uh they were both in my life every day do you think that you were drawn to being in a band and the life of the rock and roll star because you knew it would be an environment

where you'd be able to do all of those things or is it completely the other way around the environment made you do all those things i i honestly think i would have ended up the same way had i done any job really i mean i had i i used addictively from a very young age like when i think back to my first times of taking drugs I would always take everything I could you know and and drink as much as I possibly could you know so I think it was in me from a very early age I think um the band obviously there are certain times when it's okay to be behaving like that when you're in a band you know but it's not it's not okay when it's getting in the way of everything else you know so it's um there is a time when it kind of crosses the line,

but I think, I don't think the band was the reason I did that. I also, I'm quite surprised that I was in a band. I was always quite kind of self-conscious, uncomfortable in my own skin. I felt really, I always had that kind of, I hated, like my idea of hell is a dinner party, you know, like give me 10,000 people in the arena, I'm fine. Give me a one-on-one conversation, especially about addiction, and I'll talk for hours, you know, but give me a 10 000 people in the arena i'm fine give me a one-on-one conversation especially about addiction and i'll talk for hours you know but give me a dinner party of

people and i'll just freak out well they are rubbish school fees house prices brexit yeah exactly you know so it's um so i've always had that feeling and i think um i think that's you know there's um there's a song by queens of the sun it's called first it giveth then it taketh away and that was my experience it gave me something which I was missing, which was a kind of feeling of ease and comfort. And I kind of describe it as kind of like a warm blanket. It kind of gave me something and I just felt, this kind of ease came over me.

And then I just chased it forever. At what point did somebody say say you've got to go and seek help or was that something that you told yourself first I mean I had many many people sit me down over the years and say Matt I think you've got a problem and I just brushed it off I wasn't ready to hear it and it wasn't till really I mean I went to rehab three times for other people you know kind of like because at one point my record company were going to drop me because I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing and um and my then girlfriend was going to leave me you know so who is now my wife you know but um and I kind of went to kind of stay out of trouble really and kind of like prove that I was

doing something about it but then it wasn't until I was about to get married and I kind of realized that I was not going to be able to be there or I was about to get married and I kind of realized that I was not going to be able to be there or I was going to be there and just an absolute mess and let everyone down I kind of um and and at that point I couldn't I was trying desperately to stay sober and I just couldn't make it to 12 p.m I just wake up in the morning I just couldn't get to 12 p.m I just try really hard but I just I couldn't I couldn't do it. I had to drink. So the clip between Matthew Perry and Peter Hitchens has been doing the rounds this week because of Matthew Perry's very sad death,

and it's the row that he has with the columnist Peter Hitchens on Newsnight from, I don't know, about ten years ago, where Peter Hitchens is saying there's no such thing as addiction. You can stop if you want to. It really is willpower. And Matthew Perry is saying, it's not. I just can't. You just have to be able to understand this. And I wonder what insight you can give to people

who are listening to this thinking, you just can, mate. You just can stop. You know, you were going to get married. You wanted to keep your woman. You could stop. Well, I had incredible help. You know, I was very fortunate enough to be able to financially afford

to go to a rehabilitation centre. And that's not a holiday camp. I was medically detoxed for seven days because every time I tried to stop drinking, I would have a fit or a seizure. And I had to be very carefully medically detoxed three times, you know. And that's, so it's not as simple as saying, just stop, you know what I mean? And believe me, I wanted to, I really wanted to, and I had everything to lose, you know, and it was, um, it's not as simple as that.

I think, um, the thing is at the end of the day, people are dealing with pain and they're trying to find something to, to soothe that pain. And until we address what that that what that underlying pain is I don't think really we can really turn the corner so do you mind me asking what your discovery was then about yourself that has enabled you to be in recovery I mean I'm still searching for that you know I'm kind of constantly I am still in recovery I don't call myself a recovered addict you know I don't think there is I haven't really yet met one you know i'm kind of um i do things on a daily basis which keep me clean and sober and i'm and i still do them every day religiously you know and um and they help me

you know and and i don't think about drinking drugs today which is a miracle because for most of my life i did you know and even in the early years of recovery I did every single day but I had things I did and people I talked to I think reaching out is one of the most important things I think you know we're always scared I think to kind of show who we are to people because we seem weak when actually all I was met with was love you know and you know and I was lucky enough to have people around me who who showed me that and kind of listened to me and helped me you know and um and professionals you know which i think is really important but today there is a real there is a real problem with the lack of that you know and actually getting that kind of care and attention is really hard yeah i wanted to ask

you about that because in our modern world we've all got access to this very kind of secret place of pleasure, haven't we, through our screens. So those addictions that you can facilitate through screens, I mean, especially gambling, but I think porn as well. Do you worry that we're kind of sleepwalking into a real addictive abyss where we shouldn't be because we've learned so much about what addiction is through the more visible addictions as with your own yeah i mean the thing is i think people describe them as kind of lower grade addictions you know but i think anything addiction is addiction is addiction you know and i think the thing for me is that at the beginning when i was drinking and using i wanted to be out I wanted to be

with people I kind of wanted to socialize but my the longer I went at it my addiction wanted me isolated on my own just doors locked windows down on my own the whole time and I think that's what we're getting with this screen is that it kind of isolates you and you kind of you don't really need to speak to your friends you can go on Facebook you can go on Instagram and kind of see what they're up to see what they had for dinner you know you kind of isolates you. You don't really need to speak to your friends. You can go on Facebook, you can go on Instagram and kind of see what they're up to, see what they had for dinner. You know, you kind of don't really... You can get your need. You can get your need from other people.

You know, when actually we're missing that social interaction, that kind of sense of community, which I think is really missing right now. So there's an episode of your podcast where you talk to a gambling expert, gambling addiction expert, specifically, actually, who deals with an awful lot of women. Yeah. So her name is Liz Carter.

I thought she was really phenomenal, Matt. And she said this extraordinary thing about someone who she had been treating who had felt she had become a gambling addict because she was in a difficult relationship. She wasn't really able to leave the house. So she'd started doing the on-screen gambling and she'd been wearing one of those fitness watches

and she noticed that after about half an hour of being on the screen gambling, she was so calm, her fitness watch basically told her that she was in a deep meditative sleep. And that's the physical kind of sense of being lost in this zone. And I'd never realised it was actually quite such a physical thing. I mean, that blew my mind. I mean, talking to her was so intriguing

because I've never really... I don't go anywhere near gambling because I'm too scared, but also I'd liked money to buy drugs, so I was always a bit scared of gambling. But it was fascinating talking to her and also the kind of relationship that I could I could kind of put on it from a from a drink and drugs point it just felt exactly the same what they were talking about felt very similar to me but a different substance of choice you know so I think it's um it's it's fascinating you know I think the science is coming out about addiction now and kind of dopamine and kind of

the kind of dopamine balance within the brain and kind of dopamine and pain are on kind of like a seesaw. And when dopamine goes up, pain goes down. And when dopamine comes back down, it goes a bit lower. So pain goes up. So you actually physically feel pain when you're coming off drugs. What does good treatment look like for alcohol and drug addiction recovery? I mean, I can only talk from my experience. I mean, when we were making the documentary, we had a limited time to show everything that we filmed, but we filmed a lot of stuff and I went to so many different places. Like I went to an amazing detox unit in St Thomas' in London

and it was the only NHS detox unit within the M25 so that's 32 boroughs and they had 11 beds you know so like an awaiting list of years and years and years you know so it's um it's I mean I think I think it's it's it's hard for me this I don't know enough about the world of politics and and how people get money and stuff I don't know about about funding. But everywhere I went, it was like, this is great, just needs more money. This is great, just needs more money. But then you've got the stigma attached to addiction that people are saying,

I'm not paying my money to fix drug addicts, which is so sad because those people are people and they're just the same as everybody else. They've just got an issue which they're dealing with and it's breaking them and it's breaking their family and it's breaking everyone they love do you somehow escape some of that stigma because you're you know a very successful very well-known rock star well i i think um i think now when i meet people you know i don't necessarily seem like an alcoholic drug addict but i am you know if you talk to me 10 years ago i'd be a very

different person you'd be speaking to and um and i was the same as what they say those dirty drug addicts are like that was me you know and i've managed to transform my life with with with help and care and attention you know and um and i think that's a that should be available to everybody you know i mean you kind of look around the world what places are dealing with it differently i know you talked about portugal and i was fascinated by what they did you know i mean there's lots of um um questions about that but i i think you know you've only got to look at statistics and see that things are actually working you know when you offer people help and you and you give them help they can really turn a corner it's a funny kind of um hypocrisy though isn't it that we do see so much alcohol and drug abuse uh in show

business in rock and roll in the media uh but we don't treat it in the same way that we do the person who we might walk past on the street who's you know absolutely on their uppers yeah i think it is it is well you know but then but then we we're very quick to shame the person when they fall, you know. Did you feel shamed? A few times, you know. I mean, I was kind of, like everyone kind of talked about, don't believe the press and whatever, but most of it that came out was true, you know, and that's what I was reading and it hurt, you know, because I was like, that's absolutely true, you know.

But I didn't feel, I felt massive shame around my addiction but I've had to work on that you know and now I don't you know now I've kind of turned that kind of resentment and and shame into you know I think then someone my podcast told me that shame fades when you show it to the light I think that's so true you know we we hold these things inside and they eat us alive when actually sharing them is the is medicine. Can I just ask, how do you navigate? You're in very early middle age, Matt, but you are. Yes, absolutely. How do you navigate?

I'm reminded by my wife, Daly. Welcome to the voice of Doolness. I am a very, very old middle-aged person. But the fact is that you still have to go to social events, don't you? Or do you? Yeah, I've just been on tour with my band. Well, that's a different kind of, that's a very exaggerated form of social life.

But the run-of-the-mill occasion at a friend's house, you know, you like these people and they're all having a drink and I just don't know how you do it. How do you get through the evening? Well, if I'm honest, I don't really, I don't have a problem in saying I don't drink. I used to say I'm driving. That was my best kind of thing. I say, not for me, I'm honest, I don't really... I don't have a problem in saying I don't drink. You know, I used to say I'm driving. You know, that was my best kind of thing.

I'd say, not for me, I'm driving. But now I say, no, I don't drink. And when someone asks me, I don't really go into kind of saying I'm an alcoholic. I just say it doesn't suit me. But are you... I mean, be honest, are you just bored to tears all night? Once it gets to 11 o'clock, yes, I'm looking for the door. But I think that's the thing, I always have an out. You know, whenever I go to anything, I have a time when I leave and I don't stray past that time because I just don't want to be around it very much, you know, but I don't mind people having a drink like a lot of my friends and close people in my life drink and it doesn't really bother me, you know, because I kind of know very well that I can't and that's okay. because I kind of know very well that I can't, and that's okay. Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

Accessibility. There's more to iPhone. Matt Willis is our guest this afternoon. We're talking about addiction. You are married to the very lovely, very gorgeous, very funny Emma Willis, and you have three kids together. And I know that you've spoken before just about the kind of burden, really, that your addiction placed on your family

and also recognised the fact that it's quite hard for families of addicts because you get the treatment, don't you? And you need the attention. Yeah. You get the attention, you do the work. But there isn't really anything over there for them no that was what was um i think so fascinating um i mean i

really had to kind of convince emma to be part of the documentary she was like i think this is your thing and i was like i think this is a missing piece that we're not talking about which is you know i mean the kind of cycle of addiction does run in families. You know, whether it's genetic or not is not my business, but there is a definite ripple effect within there, you know, which I think isn't looked about. But also just the trauma that the loved ones face when they're dealing with somebody and they can't help them and they don't know what to do is just awful.

It's just a horrible thing to witness, you know. And I think, and she voiced it really well. You know, she really kind of, she really kind of, and she gave a voice to people that I think didn't necessarily think that anyone wanted to hear them. Yeah, because from her perspective, there must just have been so much fear around your behaviour and she had to go and kind of search local pubs for you

if you hadn't come home. Presumably sometimes she just thought the very worst had happened to you. Yeah, I mean, quite often. She said in the documentary she was so scared I was going to die and she was going to find me dead. And that was a very real feeling. And it was a feeling for me as well. But I didn't ever really...

I knew the pain I was causing her you know but I couldn't stop and um and uh yeah hearing her talk about it was was was horrendous to hear you know but and is that quite difficult in a relationship as well uh you know if basically you're saying to the person you love you know I do love you, but I can't stop this behaviour. You know, I love what I'm doing over here. It's got more of a grip on me than you have. Well, I think that's the thing. It's like I was very good at lying

and I was a master manipulator. I'd just tell everybody what they wanted to hear. I'd say, it's fine, everything's OK, don't worry. You know, when really then I'd just... Or I'd say, right, I'll stop, you know, and I can't. I physically can't, so I'm hiding it. I'm running away, I'm doing all those things, you know. I'm kind of... I'm constantly lying, which is exhausting.

You know, kind of the plates in the air and kind of, like, remembering what you said when you're drunk and you can't remember anything. You know, so it was... But for her, I mean, it was a constant fear daily that I was going to die and she couldn't do anything about it you know so it was um and really it was when my daughter was born um uh she was about six months old and I I'm I'm I was supposed to go to Birmingham to see her and her family or having a birthday party. And I instead got lost in a pub in Watford

and ended up scoring and being with strangers all night. And I missed my daughter crawling and kind of these really important moments. And I realised I was going to be a terrible father. And that's what, for me, was the wake-up moment because I've got a history of alcoholism in my family and I could see that repeating again for my children. How much do your kids know about your history?

I mean, the youngest is seven. She knows that Daddy doesn't drink, but that's kind of it. She doesn't really know that anyone really drinks, really. But then my older two know quite a lot. My eldest, I watched the documentary with her the day before it came out because I was like, she's 14 and some of her friends at school might watch it because one of their friend's dads is on TV. And I wanted to kind of prepare her for that.

And I was really worried about that because I said quite a lot of stuff that she hadn't really heard before. I never really talked about drugs ever with her. And she watched it and she asked the most incredible questions we paused it a few times and she kind of mentioned moments where she had heard things and I was like yeah that was then

and it was it takes my air out a little bit so there is so much that I thought I could hide and you can't and it had an impact on her. Do you think it will make you a better parent in all of those late teenage years and young adult years for your kids? Because it goes two ways, doesn't it?

You could either be treading on eggshells or you could actually think, well, I've got some knowledge here. I've really got some experience. Yeah, I think, you know, it's a weird one because, you know, when I think about some of the times when I was young and having fun, I had some incredible times with my friends and drugs were involved, you know, so it's like, I'm not saying that alcohol and drugs are terrible for everybody and you should never do them. me you know and that's been my my story you know but i'm not saying that no one should ever do these things most people do them recreationally and they're fine you know so it's um um it's just um if they are if there are certain signs or certain things you want to talk about you know you know you can talk about them we're almost out of time matt we could chat to you for so much longer um i wonder whether there are a couple of things that you just want to tell us that you've learned from your own podcast um I think you know the biggest thing that I've that I've kind of I've come to with the podcast is honesty you know there's something which addiction

strips you of that you know you kind of you cannot face the truth within yourself let alone telling somebody else you know but the the fact of actually opening up and talking about things. And that's been everyone's story is when they first start to talk, things start to change, you know, and, and it's not I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. You know, it's actually going, this is going on, this is how I feel, what do I do? You know, and, and that's been, that's been the biggest, the biggest thing is the first step is, you know, admitting you are powerless, you know, and moving forward. Yeah.

The episodes are really, really lovely. Listen, I love the fact that your friend Doogie, he discovered kimchi and the power of Marcus Aurelius. Absolutely. In his recovery. There you go. Whatever works. Whatever works.

Yeah. Matt Willis was our guest on the programme and is our guest here on the podcast today. This one comes in from Francis Stewart and it's a good point to make actually, Francis. Just listened to Matt Willis talking about his recovery today and I felt the need to give a shout out to all of the different recovery support groups for families of addicts, particularly AL and non-family groups for the families of alcoholics. So what was said in the interview about there only being help for the addict isn't strictly accurate as there are support structures for the family members in order for them to recover from the devastating effects of living with the addiction of a relative or friend.

So thank you for pointing that out, Francis. I thought, though though that actually Matt's recognition of what his addiction has done to his wife and his family was actually pretty honest and he I got a sense that he did he has felt very accountable over the last couple of years but boy that's a difficult path to tread well it is and he's only he's a young young man really isn't he? Yes he is. And I think it's it cannot I mean I imagine moving in the circles in which they move or could move because of their incredible connections to Emma is a hugely successful television presenter Matt probably got all sorts of links to the music world and the business of show it just can't be easy it just it

can't because the temptation must be there the whole time yeah i do think there's still something so ridiculous about what happens in plain sight in showbiz and what we celebrate in creative people yeah we absolutely give them license to damage themselves through drugs and alcohol, and we really properly celebrate it. It's part of the mystique of the creative process, and they recorded this album when they were all completely off their tits, and they recorded this single when he was so incapacitated he could barely get into the studio. You know, it's part of the mythology, isn't it?

Well, we all buy into it. But then the person who's sitting next to us on the bus, you know, who's wet themselves and can't get off the bus because they're so kiboshed by drugs. They can't afford the drugs they're addicted to. But we just have a very, very different kind of morality attached to both those things. Yeah, gosh.

Some big themes on today's podcast. We just did a couple of little women chatting. I know. That's how it was meant to be. And you started off by having a lovely toffee. It wasn't just toffee. It was the all-new Quality Street wax wrapping selection. What did you have?

You had a coffee cream. I've had an orange, three coffees, and that was, I think that was just caramel chunk. So on the programme today, the lovely Hannah Evans, who's deputy food editor at the time, she brought us in some crumpets to taste. And they were beautiful when she brought them in on a plate, and then they disappeared out of the studio.

And the production team did some sampling. I got a little bit hungry at about quarter to five, so I just said, is there any crumpets left? Jamal Keran's brought in this plate of just half-eaten bits of breaded product. It was like there'd been, I don't know, a crumpet-themed

zombie apocalypse event. But all of them had bite marks. They'd been gnawed. Gnawed was the word. It was disgusting. I really would have to be going to sleep if I was going to finish one of those. If you wonder what it's like here. Times have changed.

It's just a bit like a student flat. And not in a good way. Anyway. Right, I'm quite hungry actually. Could we go now, please? Have a lovely couple of days. Keep out of the windy weather, please. We don't want to lose anybody. See you on Monday. Have a lovely couple of days. Keep out of the windy weather, please. We don't want to lose anybody. See you on Monday.

Yep, have a lovely weekend. Well done for getting to the end of another episode of Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Henry Tribe. And don't forget, there is even more of us every afternoon on Times Radio. It's Monday to Thursday, three till five. You can pop us on when you're pottering around the house

or heading out in the car on the school run or running a bank. Thank you for joining us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. Don't be so silly. Running a bank? I know ladies don't do that. A lady listener. I'm just sorry. Voice Over describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can

navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iphone