Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Are you alluding to my misspent youth?

Episode Date: November 28, 2023

Fi is back (sort of)! She joins Jane via Zoom from home. They cover non-noisy fruit, middle aged online dating and earliest memories. Plus, Jane speaks to American poet Shane McCrae to discuss memory and his memoir 'Pulling the Chariot of the Sun'. She also speaks to Professor Catherine Loveday about memory and why we might misremember events. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Assistant Producer: Eve Salusbury Times Radio Producer: Kate Lee Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, okay, well, we'll start recording now. Now. The recording has begun. Welcome to a special medical edition, emergency ward 10 edition of Off Air, because Fi can join us, but only via a technical device. How are we doing this, Fi? So we're doing this in a very, very throwback to lockdown way, Jane, aren't we?

Well, we are. Yeah, well, I'm at home. I'm back in the home office. And I don at home i'm back in the home office and i do you know i don't spend very much time in the home office anymore because i've got a proper office to go to and home office is a grand term for a very small room in the house and i haven't really done very much to it since the end of the lockdowns and it's a bit of a depressing place to be do you find that when you're stuck in janevey Enterprises? Oh, Jane Garvey Enterprises, pulses with life seven days a week, 24 hours a day. My staff never rest. No, I agree. I've never been. I don't want a home office.

I don't want to work. I don't really want to work at all. And I certainly don't want to work in an office at home. So it's not it's not very nice. I mean, it's lovely to talk to you. And I'm grateful for technology and all of that kind of jazz. But actually being back in the home office has given me the willies a bit. Yeah. Well, listen, we've got to nail the baby elephant in the studio and home office, which is that you've not been at work because you're ill. But people will be thinking there's nothing wrong with her.

She sounds absolutely fine. So go on. In the interest of transparency, is it yes well so i was a bit sick um last week and i thought well that's fine i've just got a bit of a sick bug and then it just didn't go and then it turned into this rather weird kind of nauseous dizzy thing and having taken sort of medical advice from our wonderful nhs the verdict is if it looks like COVID, if it tastes like COVID, i.e. you can't taste anything, if it smells like COVID, i.e. you can't smell anything, it's probably a little bout of COVID. So I feel loads better now, but it's quite possible that I've had COVID for the 765th time, Jane. Well, it's actually, I know you are given

to exaggeration, but honestly, it's the fourth time you've had it. And that is just not fair. That is not fair. Well, thank you. I don't think it is either. But I suppose one day we'll learn a bit more about why some people just are getting it more often than others. I mean, there doesn't seem to be huge rhyme or reason to it. I wouldn't have thought that I fell into any of the really, I mean, I'm not terribly old, Jane. I'm not even as old as you. Well, exactly. Yes. Yeah. And the doctor couldn't explain why you might be more susceptible. Well, no. And also because I think, I'm not sure it's even on my medical record. Is it because you wore a cat suit a lot? I think that I think it's that.

Are you alluding to my misspent youth? Well, yes, I think in the end, these things do they do catch up with you. Oh, you see, that would make you so happy no it hasn't absolutely it totally totally justifies the difference in our 20s doesn't it and i envy you actually i was thinking it might be calmer because our tea with uh jane and fee you know the afternoon thingy last friday yes last friday at times. I was quite rude about your apple eating in the office. And actually, maybe you are proof of an apple a day keeping the doctor away. And I should start eating an apple with the high kind of energy that you eat your apples with.

And that might be what does it. I like an assertive crunch. But since that very cruel criticism of me, I've actually started eating satsumas, which I can do very quietly. So come back to the office soon because you're just, I won't annoy you because I've got my, satsumas don't always,

they're not always available, but they're available at the moment and they're absolutely lovely, I have to say. So actually, just as a public information announcement, for anyone who wants to know about the new COVID currently doing the rounds in southern England, it might well manifest itself as a bit of a sicky icky thing to start with. Well, I think so. I mean, I really don't want to give out any expertise. I mean, who knows? And people are still getting it so seriously. So I don't want to kind of make light of it at all. And also it just might not be.

It might be something else, but it's got some of the hallmarks of the dreaded COVID because I certainly, do you know what? I haven't had a cup of coffee in a week, Jane, and that's unheard of. It's just unheard of. It's like I've been replaced by a bot. Exactly.

Well, I've been campaigning for that actually. So don't rule it out. No, actually, I remember coffee was the first thing to go with me when i've only had covid once as you know i've been very fortunate and i am very grateful for that but i couldn't bear the thought of coffee it's quite disgusting yeah it's weird isn't it yeah and it's a very sudden absolute loathing for that beverage um anyway look um you are well enough to do this have you seen the emails yes i have lovely printed them out in the home office as well oh that's excellent so um do you because we had a lovely

email yesterday from somebody who um had just had twins and was sort of well i mean suffering would be well that she was just acknowledging that it's been exceptionally tough and we've really had some really very sensitive and sweet emails from other people who've had twins. So shall I start? Is that all right? You don't need to ask. Of course you can. I do need to ask because she's poorly and I'm on my very best behaviour. Can I tell you, it's really exhausting me. Anyway, this is from Anonymous. Hello, both of you, and I hope for years better. The new mother's email resonated with me both of you, and I hope for years better. The new mother's email resonated with me.

It was exactly how I felt 36 years ago when my first baby was born. My husband had one day of leave and I cried because I wanted to go back to work and not be left with a crying baby. I didn't have parents close by or any friends with babies. It did get better. It really did. All big life events take time. Six months later, I was crying again because I didn't want to go back to work and leave the baby. I've always been very open about my experience as I really do think it's normal. I'd advise the new mum who wrote to you to find other new mums. Go to toddler groups. The babies really don't need

to be toddling. The sisterhood among new mums is very special and the ones I found remain my very close friends. Love to all our sisters, says that anonymous correspondent. And thank you very much for that. I'm sure our original correspondent will be grateful for that. Yes. And do you know what? I'm sure you've, well, I don't know whether you have already said this, but that companionship of other people who are going through the same thing I think is so essential and even if you can't find a group in your area that is the wonder of online forums isn't it these days which probably weren't really as up and running when we had little ones but I think you can just find such enormous 24-hour comfort in them I'd just join as many things like that as you can, really.

Because sometimes just somebody saying, you know, yes, I'm going through it too, is all you need to just take the edge off that despair. Because it is despair, really, isn't it, sometimes? Those moments are frightening. Yeah, they are utterly terrifying. I've always thought we don't talk about them enough and I don't think we talk about them honestly enough.

And honestly, I don't know whether, I mean, I went to those baby classes, I'm sure you did, and no one really acknowledged that the birth is going to happen and it's the rest of it that you've got to worry about, in truth. And I wish there'd been more stuff about the first year, actually, of parenthood. Maybe the first 25 years, to be honest. Is there an email there that you want to read, she said, expertly acknowledging that we're not in the same room? Yes. Well, there is.

There were a couple of other ones about being so tired at night and all of that kind of stuff. But I did want to just mention this one as well, which was about the online dating scene. Oh, yeah. I think, was that something new that you had talked about too? Well, actually, just before we move on, I just want to read one more from the parent of Baby Twins. This listener just says,

I distinctly remember being awake in the early hours, trying to get my twins back to sleep and just wishing I could wake up and find out it had all been a dream. I absolutely love my children. I also have a son who's three years older and we wouldn't be without them. But those early months were such hard work. They are now 19 and at uni, we made it through. Those early months are a total struggle, but you will get through. There were various challenges over the years, but nothing that compared to all that feeding, nappies and lack of sleep. I'm sorry you haven't got any local family.

I really recommend, and the same advice comes now, you try to find a local baby group. It gives you a reason to get out and a chance to meet people and chat, or not. I remember people just sitting quietly. It is entirely up to you. I hope this helps. Being a parent of twins really does give you such a lot of joy over the years, honestly, says that listener.

And thank you very much for that. I concur, sister. So shall we move it on then to thoughts about online dating? Yes, go ahead. Okay. It's like we're co-piloting a plane that really was approach the runway from dubai this one comes from anonymous as well your email last week from a woman who's been single for much

of her adult life really resonated with me i've had a very interesting career and life and most of the time I really enjoy being single and actually the even bigger taboo of being childless. But these last few days and weeks I found I'm going through one of those periods and I've decided to venture into the world of online dating once again. It's giving me a feeling I can't quite put my finger on. Optimism and enthusiasm because that's me on the whole, but based on many disappointing experiences in the past, a despondency lurking very close by. In my experience, I've had to conclude that many intelligent men my age are completely unaware that they're threatened by

successful, strong, independent women their own age. Insert the obligatory, not all men. Of course, we can't force them to find us attractive. But if they dared admit their fears, perhaps they'd be able to move beyond that and see all these wonderful women who have so much to offer instead of choosing less challenging options. Perhaps it's easier for 30 somethings these days. I do hope so. I have hope in younger generations. And our anonymous correspondent goes on to say it's early days, but I thought you'd like to know that under likes and what makes me laugh, I've written off air with Jane and Fee.

And under dislikes, I've written mansplainers. Oh, good luck. I think it will sport the sheep from the goats. And that's so lovely. I think we've absolutely made it, Jane, if we've gone into a category that appears under likes and dislikes. But also, it's the PS in this that I thought was really interesting.

I was deeply irritated by a reputable over 50s dating website that gives the following four options for the want children question. Yes. No. Maybe in the future or never. So tactless, though, perhaps that ship has sailed would be even worse, perhaps just omit the question. And you are so right, because when I was on the dating apps and websites, Jane, I was always so flummoxed by that question because you don't fit into any of those categories. I mean, you know, too old to have children uh there's no category that says you have your own children and you're not going to have any more or you don't mind meeting someone who has got their children there are just so many blended family questions that would come out of being in your 40s and 50s and absolutely no opportunity to tick any relevant box so you've hit upon something there

anonymous and that should change would would those questions that's presumably the same questions would go to male male users too because they cause that they presumably could have the option to carry as we've discussed previously carry on breeding yes oh no definitely and and that's a bit uh that's a bit wrong as well isn't it and and i think it's so important if you if you're on a dating website and you do have kids i know our correspondent doesn't but just bear with the diversion for a second but it's very important to really ascertain whether or not you want to meet someone who's got their children themselves or maybe they've even got stepchildren and what age they are and all that kind of stuff it's highly ascertain whether or not you want to meet someone who's got their children themselves or maybe they've even got stepchildren and what age they are and all that kind of stuff it's highly relevant

I think so quite weird to not be embracing all of that but most of all I just say good luck and you know I think it's just such a it's it is still quite a brave thing I think for the slightly older generations to do the online dating stuff I think it just comes so much easier to the digital natives doesn't it yeah I don't underestimate the hurt that's still going on on the dating apps and websites and stuff but I think for all of us lot it still feels um uh I think I've said this before haven't I, that you keep one foot on dry land and one foot on the boat. You sail onto the online dating website scene with a slightly kind of uneasy feeling.

So good luck. I mean, I'm still wearing a life jacket and I haven't set foot on the boat. So, you know. I think you're in the Midlands. You're miles away from the shore, Jane. Yes, I am. Very, very much. What's the word for not, when you know miles away from the shore jay yes i am very very much what's the what's the word for um not um when you when you know we're near the sea you're landlocked yeah you don't you don't

need to be um this is from she's being very nice to me i think it must be her poor health um this this is from oh actually today fee we were talking about memory, because I talked to a professor. And you remember why? No, this is half the problem. But we had a range of interesting texts from people with their first memories, or, more significantly, what they thought were their first memories. But it was weird, because so many people acknowledged that actually they'd just watched cine film that their dad had shot,

and so they weren't actually sure whether it was real or not. Lots of people remember their first accident or significant visit to A&E. But this, I think, is a very truthful memory, and it's actually rather a sad one. But I do think there's an honesty about this. It's from, we don't need to mention their name, they just emailed to say,

I think I was about maybe seven or eight could have been younger and i was woken up by my mom and her partner arguing which wasn't unfortunately very uncommon i got out of bed in tears and i asked my mom to just stop she shouted at me and said get to bed it's nothing to do with you that memory has really stuck with me and i only really got control of it about five years ago I should say I'll be 70 next year um I mean that's I'm sorry there's no there are no laughs there there's no punch line but I just wonder how many people actually would be in that category uh where it's the sound of the sound of conflict in the middle of the night is a particularly horrible thing I think and probably

doesn't disappear very often doesn't be very very quickly from your from your memory. And do you think it's just a truth that you are more likely to remember your first bad memory than your first good memory? Well that is sort of what we what you're we're about to address that in the interview or I'm about to address it darling in the interview with the professor. Yes she I mean the truth is it seemed to me that this is an area that we're really only scratching the surface of and that no one completely understands what memory is how much of it if any we can rely on which obviously um bodes ill for courts of law for example where they are often completely dependent on people

remembering, in some cases, things that happened decades before. So anyway, it's fascinating. I guarantee it. I'm sure it is. And do you think that our memory muscle is made lazier by the amount of detail that we're constantly recording and seeing of our daily lives. Gosh, I don't know. Well, that's good because we have just, I don't know, we've just started, we started recording so much, haven't we? Yeah. And I think we sometimes do that thing where, you know, we'll see a beautiful view or you're out with friends or whatever it is, and you want to capture it that's what you do now you photograph it and I think that stops the memory from really going in because you just

think oh I've got that right we'll move on to the next thing you know I'll look at that later and I'm always struck at gigs everybody's got their phone in the air all of the time and a I mean who goes back and watches the back of somebody else's head in front of Chris Martin singing in Barcelona for two and a half hours, but also whether that just means that you don't, you know, you're not really in the moment because you just think, oh, I've got it for posterity on my phone. I am just embarrassed by the number of photographs of the cat I've got on my phone.

I really do need to see someone who can help me with that. Richard says, I think I was one. This is his first memory. But it's so vivid and still so fresh. It took 30 years to work out when, where, and that it was entirely real. I wish I had asked my parents about it. I think I'm looking out of what seems to be a moving car window.

There is a train coming up the road towards us and what I think is a green corr up the road towards us and what i think is a green corrugated metal fence on my right maybe there's water on the left i assume i was being held up by my mom to see the train it was cork and i was there for a day in 1955 um so there you go um the rail line ran beside the road he says I think Richard that seems real

we did have a text feed from someone who remembers their own birth no I don't think that's good I don't think you should I just want to read this from Anonymous because I suspect a lot of people will be able to relate and she says,

I think I know the answer to this question, but do any other listeners just sometimes feel like life is throwing too much at them all at once? If so, I'd be very grateful to hear other people's stories. I'm not looking for suggestions or coping strategies. I just wonder if listening to others will help me. This year, both of my parents have been seriously ill, both hospitalised, requiring carers, and my sister and I are now facing finding care home placements. It's a very sad thing to do. Alongside this,

I went into hospital for a simple operation, and my recovery has been anything but. There have been days recently where I've just felt overwhelmed and i say this in the full knowledge that compared to what many in the world are facing in areas of conflict right now my worries are small and i'm very very lucky i am not one for self-pity but deep down i'm feeling quite sorry for myself i do wonder if it's just self-indulgent what do others think um you're not self-indulgent she's not self-indulgent. What do others think? You're not self-indulgent. She's not self-indulgent, is she? No, not at all.

And I hope it's helped just to write the email. I mean, you've been through a lot, an operation that, I mean, I don't like any operations, simple or not. And often recovery is more complicated than you imagine. And both your parents have been ill and finding care homes isn't easy. No, this is all really tough. You are allowed to feel a bit wretched, I think, definitely. It's an interesting one at the moment, isn't it? Because

I think so many people are finding it difficult to grasp the perspective because of all of the pain that we're seeing happening across the world. And it is difficult, isn't it? If you've had just a really shit day that's just been nibbled around the edges by your own life but nothing you know actually that threatens your own life or that means that your family is changed forever you do find yourself thinking well you know I'm not in Gaza I'm not in Israel so what have I got to worry about but it actually doesn't take away from your usual experience that you're comparing everything to. So it is quite a tough one, I think.

It is tough. But you should never feel bad. Everybody's limits are different as well, aren't they? Oh, yeah, definitely. I think we all know that there's something about this time of year that sends many a middle-aged woman into a maelstrom of something or other. Yes, I am talking about myself. It's very unusual

um there is just something about late november december where lots of troubles come knocking and um things happen and i don't know it can be very tough and also can we just it's so cold all of a sudden and i know cold in winter shouldn't come as a surprise uh but if you can't afford your heating bill that's also a bit shit. So anyway, please give us some responses to that listener who's obviously having a tough time and just needs, as she says herself, to hear about other people and how they've... Well, she doesn't want coping strategies.

She just wants to hear about how sometimes the rest of us feel a bit crap about the way things have turned out. Can I just ask you, Fi, because Evie is pulling that face how sometimes the rest of us feel a bit crap about the way things have turned out. Can I just ask you, Fi, because Eve is pulling that face that she pulls around about this time during the podcast, which is basically get a wiggle on, you middle-aged old bags. I just want the Glover take on the Elgin marbles. I don't have one, sorry.

That's brilliant. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. No, because I don't either. That's brilliant. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. No, because I don't either. It's not, I'm not going to let it occupy a huge chamber in my mind, if that's all right. I think other people are on it, Jane. I just couldn't care less. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry to everybody. I've got a couple of wisdoms to pass on from my time in the sick bay.

Yes. One is don't ever ever watch anything on amazon that's only got three stars god right just ever don't tell me you've tried that fruity thriller on channel four that started last night at nine o'clock no i didn't i haven't tried that i've i've watched quite a lot of seasons of the bay on ITVX, which is, do you know what? It's just, it's basically Vera, but set in Morecambe Bay. It's quite, quite pacey and not too disturbing. Oh, right.

And I've also bought a pale pink ombre artificial Christmas tree. And that cheered me up quite a lot. But I think it's a purchase that I may look back on. And let's face it it's going to be in a box in the attic for many many years to come and think I bought that when I wasn't well well we all do little things like that which we we come to regret um are you eating what are you eating is anything tickling the glove of taste buds no not no not really not marmite because I I was no I don'tite? No, I don't like Marmite.

I don't like Marmite. But I did manage to get out and go and see Napoleon, which I was actually quite grateful about in the end, Jane. Well, do you know what? Because I watched the trailer. Have you seen the trailer? No, I haven't seen the trailer. How long is it?

Is it long? No, just give yourself a treat. Watch the trailer. It's only about two minutes long because it's got this scene in it that lots of people have talked about, which is Napoleon sitting opposite Josephine and Josephine is looking quite saucy she's dressed for the evening Jane is she and she's got her legs slightly apart and she says in a very very serious sultry way uh basically words to the effect, and I'm sorry if I'm misquoting him, something along the lines of,

look down and you'll see a surprise. Once you see it, you will never not want it. To which a smartass who was sitting next to me whilst watching the trailer said, what is it, a bag of Watsits? Okay, that's an unfortunate anecdote to tell a woman whose 90-year- old father was going with his friend from the sheltered housing to see napoleon this afternoon fee so well you can ask him once you see it you will never not want it i mean what could it be um we can't have your review

of napoleon but we can have my dad's and let's let's hope it comes our way i must ring him tomorrow morning to find out what he thought. He very rarely goes to the cinema. I do hope he's not been disturbed by this. Right. Fee, you can stay to hear me read out an introduction to the interview, or you can go. What's your choice?

No, I'd like to stay and listen to you read out an introduction to the interview, please. Shane McRae is an American poet and creative writing teacher at Columbia University. Now, his childhood was, to put it mildly, eventful. His father was black, his mother was white. When he was about three, you can't be certain how old he was, he was kidnapped by his racist maternal grandmother and her husband, and theirs was a violent and very troubled household. Shane's memoir, Pulling the Chariot of the Sun, is his attempt to reclaim the story of his own life. It's a remarkable story, Shane's, but it's also a story about memory and the nature of memory. I've also talked to a

specialist in memory as well, and we'll play that interview after you've heard from Shane. When I started writing it, I was just thinking of writing, you know, a memoir, but it occurred to me that the only honest way to do it was to indicate that I didn't remember things very well and not to pretend like I had perfect recall of conversations, etc. Tell us about the narrative at the heart of it, which is that as a very young child, I don't think you're even certain exactly how old you were, your grandparents, although it's not quite as simple as that, kidnapped you. Is that what happened at the very start of your life? Yes. And when I was writing the book, I didn't know how old I was, except for I knew that I was about three years old. And then I discovered recently,

it was in June that I was kidnapped. And so I was three months shy of turning four. And what happened was my maternal grandparents, my mother's biological mother and my mother's adopted father, both of whom were racist. They just didn't want me living with my father, as far as I can understand it. My father was black. My mother was white. And so they told

my father that they wanted to take me overnight for just to have me overnight, I guess. My father was about to take me to Arizona because his father had died. And my father wanted to take me to the funeral. Then my grandparents just never gave me back to my father. They moved thousands of miles away or from the top of the country to the bottom of the country and didn't tell him where they were going. Now, I said it wasn't as simple as just describing these two people as your grandparents, because the man involved was actually your maternal grandmother's, was it fifth husband? I believe so, fifth, yes. Yeah. And he emerges as an absolutely horrific individual. Can you just tell us a little bit about him?

So, as indicated, he was my grandmother's fifth husband. I think they got married when my mother was five, about. He was a few years younger than my grandmother. And he was very physically violent. And he was racist. He was right wing. You know, he was violent against all sorts of people. He used to tell stories about how when he was in college, he would drive to a neighboring town and ambush people, men he thought were homosexuals and beat them up. He was just very awful. So is it possible for you to start to describe the atmosphere in the home as you were growing up and trying to understand what was going on around you? Well, you know, I don't know that I was trying to understand what was going on around me very much. I was, it's hard to see oneself as, or to see one's life experience as unusual when one is in

the midst of it. What one is doing instead is just sort of living from one day to the next. And one assumes, I suppose, particularly when one is a child, that one is ordinary. The atmosphere was very tense, but at the time I just thought that's how things were. My grandfather was, I guess he thought of himself as a traditional patriarch. I don't really remember. I'm sure I spent a good deal of time with him. Basically, all of it is gone from my memory. I just remember that it was unpleasant, very tense. The only book that we had that I can recall, other than we might've had a dictionary or encyclopedias or something, we had bookshelves in the living room. We didn't have books on them. We did have, however, this one racist children's book

that my grandfather had enjoyed when he was a child. It was, I think it was called Little Brown Coco or something. It wasn't a very literary home. It was just tense and filled with visual, or at least had some of the visual manifestations of anti-Black racism. And yeah, but when I was living in it, as I said, it was just my life. And your mother, where was she when your grandmother and this man were bringing you up?

Usually in a nearby city, but not in the same city in which I lived with my grandparents. Your father was Black, as you've told us. Were there any other people around you who were black? Were you allowed to have black friends? Did you go to school with other black children? I think that there must have been, I recall, two other black children in the elementary school I attended in Texas. There probably were more. If there were more, though, I don't remember them at all. One was a girl in my same grade, and one was a boy, I think, a few years older. I didn't have black friends. There just weren't other black kids around. But I also, I briefly had a black friend when I was, might have been a teenager, just

beginning to be a teenager in California after we left Texas. But my grandparents were not happy about that. I mentioned that memory is a constant theme throughout this book. And I think actually reading it, most people will begin to think about what they remember from their childhood or think they remember. And that's the difficulty, isn't it? We can't we don't actually know. And that's the difficulty, isn't it? We can't, we don't actually know. Has it led you to have all sorts of conversations with readers about that very thing? learning. I think I heard it on public radio when I was a teenager. I was in the car driving around with my grandmother somewhere. And learning that when we remember things, we don't just pull them out of a box where they're sort of sitting, our memories. We recreate them, which is one of the reasons why memories degrade. And realizing that I couldn't trust any memories I had ever.

grade and realizing that I couldn't trust any memories I had ever. You know, and I had been for most of my life really adept at blocking memories or erasing memories. And so even the few things I could remember, I couldn't believe or couldn't trust because every time they occur to me, I am remaking them. But when you write about your skateboarding experiences, for example, I mean, I've never been on a skateboard in my life. I don't know anything about it. But there was a real beauty to what you were writing. And those memories seemed crystal clear. Yeah, I mean, what I do remember about it, I remember, I think, pretty well. I still remember,

you know, usually it's the more severe injuries, I suppose. I still run through my mind what I would what I ought to have done differently in order to have avoided those injuries. But, yeah, I remember I still do skate very infrequently, but sometimes. But I remember it. It's a it's a it's it's a memory that inhabits my body, not just my mind. Very sort of very profoundly. And so I remember it, I think, well. You have mentioned in the course of the conversation that the man who was your grandmother's husband was violent. And that there's a line I noted that's extraordinarily painful, actually, to read it when you say, my grandfather couldn't hit me hard enough to stop me from eventually calling him dad. Can you just tell us a bit more

about that? Well, I think I was desperate to have what I considered a mother and father. You know, I did have a mother who I saw. I actually don't know how often. But, you know, I knew who she was and I called her by her first name. And I hadn't seen my father since I was three. And I was told that he didn't want anything to do with me. And I was just really desperate to have a mother and father in what I considered to be, I suppose, sort of an ordinary way at the time. And so it kind of didn't matter how my grandfather or my grandmother treated me, I would still call them mom and dad because that's what I wanted them to be. And do you think that experience is perhaps all too common? I think it is an extremely common experience.

Did anybody, I'm just thinking about the experience, if your experience had occurred in the UK, the conversation we'd have had after it all came to light was, well, what did the school know? You know, what did the neighbours do about it? Did anybody try to intervene or to help you? I think certainly at that time, you know, particularly when I was a young child, that would have been at the very, very end of the 1970s. We would have, I suppose, moved in 1979. And the early to mid 80s was when I was in Texas. And people still kept to themselves about such things. And so, which really wasn't to the good at all, but no, nobody tried to intervene

or anything like that. I don't think anybody had any sense of anything was going on. You were in the end, able to reunite with your father. Is that right? Yeah, I found him when I was 16. And what did he say to you about what had happened in your childhood? He didn't really say much to me. I was still living with my grandmother and he didn't want to rock that boat at all. You know, it had been 13 years since we'd seen each other. He didn't know what I had been seen each other. He didn't know what I had been told growing up. He didn't know what I thought of him. And so he didn't say anything

about how I was kidnapped. He talked about, you know, missing me and not leaving the city from which I was taken because he thought that he hoped that I would come back there. But he didn't say an awful lot about it. What impact has writing the memoir had on you? I'm glad I did it. And it feels it's really hard to explain. You know, I love tremendously writing poetry. And, you know, I've written a good number of books of poems. But there is something about writing a book of prose that feels, it's just a different kind of, a different kind of thing. I feel good about having done it, but I also found sort of digging into all of this stuff again, really depressing. voiceover describes what's happening on your iphone screen voiceover on settings so you can

navigate it just by listening books contacts calendar double tap to open breakfast with anna from 10 to 11 and get on with your day accessibility there's more to iPhone. We're talking about memory this afternoon. This is a nice email from David, who's 64, he says. I can remember being three. It's my earliest memory. I'm in hospital after a hernia operation. I was sitting at a table having my dinner and I heard my dad calling out Davey to me while standing in a large archway of the hospital at the end of the ward. Gosh, that is very, very vivid.

It's interesting how many memories are about hospital accidents, incidents of that nature. Let's bring in the neuropsychologist then, Professor Catherine Loveday. She specialises in memory at the University of Westminster. And I talked to her about the way we form memories, particularly in the case of childhood and trauma. So we started with the very, very basics. I asked her what memory is.

Memory is quite complex because it's not just one thing. So it's not just remembering what we did yesterday. It's all sorts of feelings that we hold. It's knowledge. It's being able to play the piano. It's being able to walk. So it's lots and lots of different things. But I guess the type of memory we're interested in here

is what I would call autobiographical memory. So that's our memory for our life. And that kind of memory is a reconstruction always of an event, a mental conscious reconstruction of an event that we've experienced in our life. But that memory, such as it is, may not be accurate. That's true. In fact, we will almost never be like completely 100% accurate and there will be details missing as well. But sometimes they can be entirely inaccurate.

We can entirely fabricate memories and no one ever wants to believe that of themselves, but we've absolutely shown experimentally that people do fabricate memories completely. But largely there is a gist that is accurate, but the details change almost every single time we remember it, we slightly alter and change that memory. Right. Gosh, this is a complex area, isn't it? So when people fabricate memory, do they always

turn it into a negative? Or can they actually find positivity in stuff that was deeply painful? It can be both of those things. I mean, it can be something very mundane. But if we're talking about difficult memories, then in fact, what we've shown is that over life, people tend to remember more and more the positive elements. So we do look at life through more rose-coloured spectacles as we get older. And there's very good evidence that we tend to drop the more negative stuff as time goes on and

focus on the more positive stuff and the way that memory works is the bits that we rehearse the bits that we go over and talk about and think about are the bits of the memory that we will remember but we've also done some work where we've looked at kind of two aspects of memory there's how accurate it is and there's how much it kind of supports our identity and our sense of who we are and is coherent with you know our views on life and we've shown that actually if a memory isn't 100 accurate but it does fit well with who we are and what our values are that's quite good for us so you know having a bit of flexibility in memories is a good thing really when somebody has as difficult a beginning as shame do their memories differ from those of us who perhaps had a more stable start in life yeah so traumatic memories are are really complex

because um sometimes they can be remembered but in pieces and bits and pieces and of course these are childhood memories which are also complex so they're childhood memories that are complex and traumatic memories that are complex in both cases we store them slightly differently um and so with traumatic memories, really kind of extensive trauma can often wipe out memories completely or can leave you with just some of the feelings and just kind of almost flashes of moments without a sense of a whole memory. And but the kind of medium amount of trauma can actually make memories really, really strong. So we've got this weird relationship with trauma where sometimes the memories will be really really powerfully strong and sometimes they'll be completely erased um what we do know from research is that traumatic memories do tend to get stored slightly differently um there are very high levels of cortisol and adrenaline um and that can help

bed in some of the real kind of powerful visual elements, for example. And what I really wanted to mention about his book is his pin sharp recall of physical activity, the skateboarding, for example. I mean, I said to him, I'd never been on a skateboard in my life, but reading his descriptions of it, I felt so close to his experience. Why do you think he's able to recall that so vividly there's a couple of things going on there one is that it's a bodily memory so something that we have really um embodied if you like that has involved a lot of movement and muscle movement can be almost stored in a sort of physical way um but also there's movement around a space and

what we know from memory is that as we move from one place to another as we move around our environment that triggers activity in the hippocampus which is the area of the brain that helps us to store memories um it makes evolutionary sense right if you're taken away from home as indeed he was in fact if you're taken away from home, as indeed he was, in fact, if you're taken away from home, your memory goes, I need to store this because I need to get back to a place of safety. So we are activated to try and remember things as we move around our environment. And we're also activated to try and remember things when they change.

So we will often have kind of moments of recall that are pinned to those specific moments. And yes, skateboarding is a very bodily thing and it's a lot of movement and it's moving around our environment. Shane seemed quite uncertain as to whether it had been a good idea to write his story. Is it, in your experience, a good idea to do that? in your experience a good idea to do that? I would say there's no hard and fast rule but on the whole evidence shows that writing about emotional experiences is a positive thing to do so I would never advocate that everybody does it because it can be very very difficult for some people but there's a whole literature on something called written written emotional disclosure which is where you write about traumatic difficult emotional events and

you see real benefits of that and some of those are physiological benefits there's even research that shows that if somebody goes for a vaccination that the uptake of the vaccination is better their body responds better if they've been engaged in a written emotional disclosure paradigm compared to not doing it so what that seems that seems extraordinary it's it has there's a whole load of other experiments as well that show physiological changes people wounds heal quicker it's it's not just the mental thing it's a bodily thing because it seems to reduce levels of stress um but I am very clear to not want to say everybody should absolutely go and do it because it can be very very difficult to reopen those old wounds and sometimes you're going to start

rehearsing stuff that your brain has chosen to leave behind so I don't think there's a straightforward answer but it certainly can be good for some people right I mean there are so many questions and I could I've talked to you all day but um what what about um people who I mean we've all we've all been through this where someone has lost a partner um and people will know that in fact their relationship was let's say perhaps a bit challenging at times perhaps more challenging, perhaps even downright terrible. And yet after the other person has gone, the person who's left only seems to have the good stuff to say and they can only recall the better things. Is that just a coping mechanism? It's, yeah, I mean, I've had that exact experience myself. And it is very strange how that happens.

I kind of knew it theoretically, but when you actually experience it, it's quite interesting. It is a sort of coping mechanism, but it's a deliberate, I suppose it has evolutionary benefit to do that, because if we dwell on all the negative, difficult difficult things then it does us no good at all so um the brain seems to be better at trying to focus on the good things and to think about the good things that come from that relationship and that came from that attachment because you know very often there are still good things we can take um so it is a sort of adaptive coping mechanism that seems to happen very naturally. And it is something, I guess, that we can also try and encourage to happen as well. And just a final question about the impact of the pandemic. I mean, for those of us, I am talking about myself, you know, I've had a fortunate life, lacking in trauma, certainly.

Why is it that I find the events around the pandemic my memory is fuzzy about things before I can't remember whether things happened after the pandemic or during the pandemic or just in the years leading up to 2020 I don't think I'm the only person who just feels a complete confusion around that period in my life yeah there's definitely a study that's just come out that shows that people are quite poor at being able to time, you know, timestamp events around the pandemic, actually. Some of it is just because all of our landmarks moved. So the things that we might have used as a sort of landmark to work out when things happen didn't happen. For example, you know, like Glastonbury Festival or Wimbledon or even Christmas in some cases.

So we've lost our landmarks there was much less differentiation in our days they were kind of much more samey everything kind of was different so there's a lot of reasons why we didn't recall as much we also weren't getting out and about so much so our hippocampus wasn't getting that stimulation that i was talking about earlier we had less social interaction so we weren't talking about our memories and that's another way that we reinforce what happened so um you know I think the good news is that what we've seen from our research is that people do remember stuff um in fact some people are now already quite nostalgic for that time which is

strange in a way um but we're not very good at placing them in time. They do sort of merge into different places in our mind, I think. And we shouldn't be hard on ourselves about that. No, absolutely not. Okay. Yeah, she asked hopefully. Shane McRae, and you've just heard from Professor Catherine Loveday. Shane's memoir is called Pulling the Chariot of the Sun. And if you want to email

us about memory your first memory or imagined memories or whether you like me are a bit shaky around the memories of the covid lockdowns and dates and when things happened uh please do let us know it's jane and fee at times dot radio um fee i think, will you be back with us next week for sure in real life? Oh, very much so, yes. And as soon as all of the dizzy weirdness goes, I'll be back with you in person. I just can't wait, Jane, actually. I just can't wait.

Please let me come back. It was bao buns in the canteen yesterday. Oh, you're kidding. You're absolutely kidding. I have to wait about six months for that to come out again. I know. It was jerk chicken today. Oh, stop it kidding. You're absolutely kidding. Oh, I guess what? I have to wait about six months for that to come in again. I know. It was jerk chicken today. Oh, stop it.

I know. Stop it. You're right. Although I have to say, neither of those feel very appealing at the moment. No, well, probably not. No, no. Okay, sorry, I've forgotten you called me.

It's probably not your priority. Just because I just come bustling in and head first straight of all to the canteen. Straight of all. First of all to the canteen before anything else. Right, do get well. You do sound a bit more energized so that's excellent it sounds like you're making progress um and thank you for doing this and hopefully we'll speak again tomorrow yes very much look forward to the doctor's rounds yes i'll um i'll give you a full examination

and don't watch that disgusting Channel 4 thingy. It's absolutely terrible. Right. It's called The Couple Next Door. Okay. Episode two's on at nine o'clock tonight. It's awful for you. Right.

Good evening. Good night. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings, otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. We missed the modesty class.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man, it's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects. Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon. I'm Double tap to open. Breakfast with Anna from 10 to 11. And get on with your day.

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