Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Asking quite a lot of a camisole strap

Episode Date: April 16, 2026

Happy Thursday! The adventures of Fi's specs continue - in fact, they're now an active member of the St Bride's congregation. After that, Jane and Fi chat chopper bikes, rebellious school photos, Bruno Brookes' real name, fox droppings, and zooming around Lisbon airport astride a Trunki. Plus, Professor Baroness (Kathy) Willis on her National Trust Octavia Hill Lecture, covering how nature makes you healthier. To hear our comfort reads list, go to: 58:15 Or, you can see the list up on our Instagram. Just search @JaneandFiYou can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I feel bad and as you're about to realise, I'm feeling bad in the presence of greatness. Oh no. Well, that's you, but also the Lord. Because I left my glasses in a church. Oh, I see. Sorry. Yeah, and I haven't been back to it. And I said I was going to pick them up and then I didn't turn up.

And there's only so far that the Reverend Cannon, Dr. Alice Joyce's forgiveness and stretch. She's a patient woman, but she's had a. bellyful. So thank you very much indeed for your very handy reminder. Alison is the rector at St Bride's Church and Fleet Street. The glasses have been there since the charity Carol concert in December. And Alison says, I'm pleased to report that fees reading specs continue to be marvellous company. They're still nesting in our church vestry. They're very well behaved and proving no trouble at all. They joined in our Easter ceremonies with enthusiasm this year. They were present at the dawn service on Easter Day at 6am, where we kindle the Easter fire

and bless and light the Paschal, the special Easter candle, followed by a traditional egg rolling down Fleet Street. Did you know any of that happened, Jane? I didn't know. So an egg roll, is it with real eggs? I don't know. It's an accident waiting to happen, isn't it?

Well, we should go next year. Later that day, they were spotted adorning the beak of the eagle on our medieval lectorancy photographs attached, and there they are. Just go and get them. So I am going to come and get them. This weekend, I'm going to go to St. Brides, on Sunday, because that won't be a busy day for them.

I'm going to pick them up then. Alison, I'm really sorry, and thank you very much indeed for checking in and gently reminding me. They were my spare set. Because obviously I wouldn't have really been able to cope without them for a while, but they've been there for too long. Sorry. Yeah, I mean, everyone needs a spare set anyway, don't they?

I mean, I'm surprised you've got through without the spare set. Well, these are my variphocals, and they have been a little bit challenging. I mean, there's only one tiny, tiny point that I can see in the studio. Of maximum satisfaction. Well, the studio's weird, isn't it? Yeah, it is a bit weird.

Because we're not reading like you're reading a book. We're not reading like you're reading a normal computer. It's quite bonkers. Oh, it's very stressful in that. It's very challenging. It's a little bit like being an astronaut. And Sally said, surely Samantha Harvey should be your appointed space author.

and we did, we missed that, didn't we? Because we were talking about what sort of writer, which writer would be best to tell us about the experience of space. And of course, Samantha Harvey's already done it. In Orbital, which was her prize-winning, very short novel about astronauts up there. And she did do it beautifully.

It'd be fascinating for her to be able to go up and do it for real, though, and do the non-fiction version of the fiction. I wonder if perhaps they've asked her. Well, you do rather wish that she had been up on the, strange Jeff Bezos penis one because she definitely would have had better things to say than all of them.

Yeah, that's absolutely true. I did watch there was a documentary on the BBC last night about Artemis II which I did watch. And it just, it was only an hour long. I could have taken more of it if I'm honest. I appreciate that it had to condense everything because obviously this expedition has been

long in the making and involves all sorts of incredibly gifted people at all levels of the you're right there Eve project

thank you Eve's current project is to sit in on a chair but she's finding that quite difficult

anyway I could have taken more of it but they're just such incredible people it goes without saying

I'm saying it anyway just startling human beings courageous also so clever

because they're there for a reason and I just we can't expect everything we can't expect them

to be Nobel Prize winning writers as well but they were very good at describing how things were. They were.

I just hugely admire that buffer zone that they've got to put up with other people in such a small space. I mean, it is the first thing that you think about, isn't it when you think about going to space? It is the claustrophobia. It's probably the money, but we're not seriously thinking about going to space.

But it is that claustrophobic sense of who could you put up with for that length of time. And you're just going to have to do everything in front of your colleague. on a space journey that small. Yes, I have to say, I'm not just being puerile, I could have done with more information in that documentary about the facilities available.

And how you managed to sleep and how you manage to, whether or not you sweat in the same way or fart in the same way, all of those things. Yeah, I'm fascinated by that too. Yeah, I mean, it was Joanna Scanlan yesterday in the conversation that I had with her, said she didn't sweat, she just doesn't perspire or sweat. She just doesn't. Now, she'd be handy in space

in that respect, I imagine, because the whiff of somebody else's Space B-O wouldn't be all that beguiling, would it? And I know that I should have listened to the interview, and I'm sorry, I will do that over the weekend. Let's just assume you have done. Okay. Did she explain why she doesn't sweat?

She's just one of those people, a little bit like me and my resistance to flatulence. Some of us just don't do it. We just can't. Yes, I've got evidence of... Yeah, no, you're not that again. Right. Anyway, so if anybody else saw that Artemis documentary, and like me, was left thinking, oh, I don't know, more please.

Do let me know. Perhaps they will be more. I mean, they're going back, aren't they, in one form or another? And I was telling you yesterday that Christina, the lady astronaut, has now been reunited with her dog. Oh, it's a wonderful video. And that's very sweet. It's very sweet.

It's just the dog looking through the door at her as she comes up the steps. I mean, the dog's really excited. Oh, you would be. The dog doesn't know she's been to space. No, but that's the joys of a dog. They don't know what's happened in your day, but they're always so, so happy to see you. Nance comes crashing down the stairs.

Sometimes she's so excited to come down the stairs. She slightly slips all the way down because greyhounds, their ass is weightier than the front of them. Right. And we could happen to any of us. I'm sure it will. That's where I'm planning to go. Totally.

She'll head down the stairs, nose first, and her bottom kind of pushes her all the way down, she just ends up in a great big clattering heap at the bottom. But it's like I've been to space, Jane. But I've just been to London Bridge. Yeah, and it's, although it is a journey into the future, because this is in many ways a futuristic landscape. You haven't actually been to space.

I haven't. And do you tell, Nancy, that you're just a DJ? Just a DJ. Oh, no, sorry, what was I thinking? I mean, so many of you enjoyed our journey through the history of broadcasting yesterday that literally no one has referenced it. So thank you.

I think that's because you're all just still getting over it. Still absorbing. Wonderful nuggets. I'm really sorry about that. So I take full responsibility for explaining a cart stack. I think over the years, I think men have been allowed to be anorax. And you and I are both a bit anoraki. And that's fine.

And you're absolutely right. It was genuinely, Jane. It was so nice to talk about driving the desk. Yes, to someone else who understands. I'm with you. I'm with you. And I would really love, if I ever had more money than I knew what to do with, it could be you.

Oh, yeah. That's just doubled, hasn't it? The lottery prize availability has doubled. You're still not likely to win. Don't kid yourselves. But apparently the All Win Entertainment, the people who run the lottery over here, so they've gone into business, haven't they, with an American lotto. So now the prize could be a billion, a billion dollars,

which is so much that they're only going to pay out a certain amount every year. year because obviously winning a billion would be yeah go figure might ruin your life too much money but i don't know how i feel about that james i'd be odd i don't know i mean i've always assumed that i wouldn't want to win a huge sum of money but i'd be very happy to win a moderate sum of money so there's no logic to that is there but anyway if we did win then i would very much like to buy one of those old mark three desks and just have it installed in a shed right as i believe bruno brooks did And play around with my cart stack. Just worth saying that Bruno's real first name was Trevor.

Was it? I didn't know that. Trevor Brooks. Oh, okay. Let's just check that if you died. I think that's true. Yeah, would you have picked? Because some of our D, our job,

back to our nostalgia fest now, but some of our jocks did have to change their names in the first local station I worked for because they weren't deemed showbiz enough. Okay, can you remember what they changed them from? Well, I remember there was one youth who turned up, and he was only a youth called Ian. Brown, I think it was, although that's the stone roses.

Maybe it was Ian something else. Anyway, the boss made him change his name to Sky. Sky. Ian Sky. Ian Sky. Because you could, it sounded great on the old reverb. Ian Sky. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, this is definitely niche. But did nobody ever say Jane Garvey, you know, do you fancy being something else?

No, they don't do it to women. They don't do it to women on the whole. because also, but we weren't jocks. We weren't kind of radio totty for the bored housewife, were we? Well, we are now. That's true. You're not housewives and you're not bored.

Well, you probably are bored if you're listening to this. We embrace the board housewife. Has Eve got any news? Just in case anyone ever thought, I knew all this off the top of my head. My wife on my phone stopped working. So I've turned to the PC next to me. Trevor, Neil, Bruno, Brooks.

Right, thank you. Wow. Trevor Neil, Bruno Brooks. So Bruno was in there. Well, he just need to... No, hang on. It's in quotation. Oh, I think so it wasn't ever in there. Because where was he born?

Stoke-on-Trent. Right. Nobody in Stoke-on-Trentz called Bruno. Brun-No. Bar-O-N-Sto-Trent. I don't know why that's funny. Oh, dear. Right. Okay. Deadlock season two in Ozzie perspective comes in from Karen and Sydney.

I'm with you. This season of Deadlock is dead disappointing. We stopped watching after the secondary. episode. I've never been to the top end but I'm pretty sure the residents up there would be quite offended by the caricatures of it. Oh, you better answer that. No, I'm not going to answer that because I think that's probably an estate agent.

Oh gosh, it's still on the market. We haven't heard anything negative about the property this week, thank God. Something has happened, but I'm not going to tell you. And while crocodiles are certainly a danger in the territory, when I visit I will be more concerned about the humidity than the crocs. We started season two of British crime

drama, patience last night, and it was so much better. Have you watched Patience? I haven't. No, neither of eyes. We've got nothing to contribute on that. But thank you because another correspondent has said that they have, this is Kath and Kev, they have got stuck in

to Deadlock 2 and it does get a bit better after the first episode. But I don't know, I'm not sure whether I can test that out myself. I'm so put off by it. Okay, you remind us it was just too smutty and crude. It was very, very shouty. It was very, very shouty. And there was a lot of

a lot of a tempted humour about gay sex that I just thought I'm just not sure I don't know actually I'm not sure that's very funny isn't it I don't know well I've never seen any of it so

this is one of our less informed conversations It is isn't it let's move quickly on please Let's say something Let's bring in Deleth Jane's story about cutting her gym slip with pinking shears reminded me of a childhood incident that I haven't thought about for years

when I listened in this morning Growing up I was a bit of a tomboy My mother despaired I was obsessed with football It wasn't the done thing in the early 80s for girls climbing trees And riding my neighbour's BMX bike I tell you what

There was something incredibly exciting About a BMX bike Girls on the whole Didn't have them did they No it was very much a boys thing Did you have one? No I was always looking longingly at

What were they called choppers Choppers? Choppers notoriously difficult to steer. Really cumbersome. Yep. And something very sort of, I suppose, testosteroney about a chopper.

I hate to say it, but I think there might have been a female alternative that was something like the shopper. God, that's depressing, isn't it? The chopper and the shopper? It can't have been that crude, but it wouldn't. I wouldn't put it past the 80s.

I'd tell you, I really wouldn't. Back with Deleth. When I was eight the day before my annual primary school photo, I was frog marched into the hairdressers to have my wild and messy bob, trimmed into sleek perfection. So, to quote my parents, at least you can look nice in the photo.

I still remember coming home and hating the style, thinking I just looked awful. So I thought I'd take the matter into my own hands. I seized the pinking shears from my mother's sewing basket, and, well, I just didn't have any idea that the scissors were zigzagged. I still to this day have no idea why anyone would need a pair of zigzag-shaped scissors. What I can tell you is it in the hands of an eight-year-old,

and with no mirror, they do not give you a decent haircut. I ended up with incredibly cross-parents and got some very strange looks for the next couple of weeks until the hair could be reshaped. Well, Deleth, we would like photographic evidence, please, of that school photo. I mean, the school photos were... I mean, very few people come out of school photos well.

Did you have to have one taken with your sister? No, no, okay. So at the primary school that my children went to, you had to be photographed in family groups. My kids have had to. My younger child was certainly much more tactile and cuddly-buddly than her older sister. And in all the photos, the younger one is trying to cuddle into the older one

who's sort of edging. Oh, God! She looks kind of really, leave me alone in all these images. And then basically the young one couldn't wait to just be on our own in the photo. Yeah, it is a thing that, the primary schools do go in for the family portraits. Yeah, but it's often unwise.

You're on your own in your secondary school photos, aren't you? Oh, I don't remember having any solo photography at secondary school at all. We had a big school photograph at the end of every year. And ours was the terrible one for the centenary, where there were some of us, I think, were probably in, what would it be, in year 10, year 11? Anyway, a little bit wild. We were a bit, we were a bit. bit malfunctioning and we blacked our teeth out and we had some addresses that had big zips up the

front and and of course the photographer was miles away because it was a very big school so he had to just wave this flag you know when he was ready to take the shot and we all undesied out of the and smiles and so they couldn't use the centenary photograph and it is it's still a source of consternation in some families to this day. I've got no idea why I wasn't expelled for that. And I do look back on it and think, I should have been. Actually, it was a very stupid thing to do, Jane. It was very stupid and I'm sure retrospective expulsions can occur. And you can be expunged from the school record. Yeah, I did go back and make a speech. Well, you say that now. Yes, only once. And have they, did you acknowledge your grievous behaviour? No, do you know what? I've completely forgotten about it.

about it until somebody quite recently reminded me about it. It was just one of many, many silly things that we did at school. We were bored and let that be a lesson to you all. Gosh, that's very stern. I was at a kind of, what do you call it, kind of antique market in North London, up your neck of the woods last weekend, pottering about with my elder daughter and we were looking at stalls and things. And do you know, how do you feel when you see collections of very old photographs? You know when people put on their findings, you know, when people put on their findings, and posed for what was a rare thing, a family portrait. I feel real sadness when I see these images on sale in these antique markets and things. I don't know why, because there's no malicious intent there. It's just sad somehow, because nobody knows who these people are anymore,

and I suppose it'll be the fate of all of us, but it just makes me feel very melancholy when I see them. And I don't know why anybody would buy them. No, I don't understand why you'd buy them. Where you'd put them. it's groups of strangers so immaculately attired and of course looking very somber

as they always did in those family portraits nobody was saying say cheese when did they start when did it be come in that you had to look cheerful in a family photo well maybe it coincided with having better teeth I mean an awful of people

you know if they smiled it wouldn't have made them more attractive maybe that's why they just didn't do it them in the previous previous century But they're not even twinkling. No, they're not even smiling. No, they're not doing anything. But I think you wanted to convey,

if you had enough money to have a proper photographer come and take your photograph for posterity, I suppose the image that you were trying to send out to the world was one of stature and significance, wasn't it, rather than, we're having a blast. Yes. So it was very different. But I completely agree with you.

And actually, I find it very difficult to buy second-hand books that have inscriptions in them. So you know when there's a very personal inscription of real meaning to somebody, I find it very difficult to want to own that book. It's somebody else's experience and somebody else's, a little part of somebody else's life.

And I find that very, very weird and not entirely comfortable. It can really turn you off a book, can't it? When you see, as you say, this very personal and heartfelt inscription, then you think, I'd just chuck this out. But it's strange, isn't it?

Because I'd happily wear second-hand, third-hand vintage clothing, happily, happily, happily. I don't give it a moment's thought. Oh, I wouldn't say no to an inheritance of some really wonderful, very expensive jewellery, no. No. I never had one. Good Lord, no.

Is that an amethysts you're wearing, Jane Soson? Oh, I tell you the other thing I was thinking about, is that brooches, does anyone wear a brooch? Because they are everywhere at these antique things. And it's like it was something that everybody had, women obviously cherish their brooches. They were bought for people. They were looked after for years.

Nobody wears them anymore. So you can pick these beautiful things up for an absolute song. But what would you do with it? Well, why don't we start a fashion? Why don't we? And just wear brooches. I mean, I've got quite a few, funnily enough, from my grandmother,

who used to pound them down. Were they just put on the upper part of a frock or a coat? Well, do you know what? It would be fascinating to know a bit more about them, wouldn't it? but I've always presumed it was just another way to show that you had a bit of bling. So, you know, you'd have your necklace and a ring. Because women didn't tend to wear more rings than a wedding ring.

I think a wedding ring is actually quite an engagement ring, a great big thing, me jiggy. I'm not sure when that came into being either. So I presumed it was just a little piece of finery that kind of said, oh, I've got a bit of, wonga. Right. But was it because you were wearing a scarf and you needed to have something to clasp the scarf or was it that? I don't know. Anyway, somebody listening, God help us if they don't, somebody listening will know more about this than we do. Well, they will and it'll be fascinating.

Yeah, I'm really interested because it's all social history, isn't it? And for our Friday editions, we'd love to pop some things like that into into your ears, wouldn't we? So we're going to talk about scent with Susie Nightingale at some point. And if we could get some kind of an antique, antique women's jewellery expert on. That'd be great. Yes, I would. Absolutely great. Can I do just a tiny bit more, please, from Kath and Kev's email, which started off asking for advice about cats on fairies?

Yes. We've made a gear change here. As so many of the hives seem to travel on Brittany ferries, I wondered if anyone had done the crossing with a cat. After 17 years living in France, I've taken the decision to relocate to South Devon at the beginning of May. I've agonised over whether to take my cat Kevin with me or whether it would be better for him to stay here, but he's extremely attached to me.

And I think it's best he goes to. He's an outdoor hunting three mice a day boy. He's never travelled further than the vets, 10 minutes, once a year, which he absolutely hates. We've got a six-hour drive to Roscoff, then eight hours on the ferry to Plymouth. It's during the day, and I've booked a pet-friendly cabin with a window,

so he has a view as if he'll care. I've also bought an expandable pet. carrier and a portable litter tray, but I fear he'll be stressed all the way. Somebody mentioned a CBD spray, which helps to calm anxiety. But I'd love to hear other people's experiences and any tips that work. Right, popping that out there. I mean, I don't think you should leave Kevin behind. I think Kevin needs to come and enjoy South Devon with you, but I really wish you luck with that journey. There's a certain meow that a distress cat makes that you think after an hour and a half of it, that's got to tie them out.

You'd hope. They're going to stop. You don't want to hear that noise. They never do. No. By the way, I do let us know how much more it was to get a view for your cat. Because I love that detail. Absolutely do. I don't know what a portable litter tray is. Isn't it just a litter tray? Well, presumably it's got a kind of lid on it. Oh, I see. I don't know. You're the one, you're far more expert in litter trays than I am. God. I mean, what Dora does is often times her visit to the litter tray to coincide with a meal.

And I swear down, she does this deliberately. So we can be enjoying, as we were last night, are fish cakes. Fish cakes on a Wednesday. Is it fish cakes? Yes, it is. Go and live somewhere else if you don't like what's on offer here. Except that's not what I say, because I'm the ultimate soft touch. Anyway, it's so, you take a little gentle bite of the fish cake, and you can hear the...

In the background. The unmistakable sound of Dora taking to her facilities. And I swear she does it deliberately. And then one of us has to get up and tackle the result. Oh, that reminds me. Kucinia, welcome again, good to hear from you. Sorry to raise an unpleasant topic, but we have recently been plagued by a local fox

who started using our carport as a toilet. I mean, that's yuck. Every night, he, she, leaves a horrifically smelly deposit. Well, I suppose at least on the plus side, you know, they're regular. Even once I've moved the poo, trying not to gag, the awful smell does linger. Is there anything I can do to repel the fox? I remember this being a topic on the pod, maybe last year. I didn't pay close attention to whether or not the situation was resolved.

Right, Kassinia, hopefully somebody can help. I did find, on a well-known retailer's site, fox repellent spray. Has it repelled my foxes? It hasn't. But I do quite enjoy the feeling of power I get when I take it outside and spray. about. It doesn't really help you, but there you go. So the only thing that did seem to work in our fox-infested street was male urine. So if you've got a man who could come and relieve himself in your carport, then that will put the fox off, but your carport will still smell.

That's male wee. Really is. Swings and roundabouts, isn't it? What exactly is a carport? Is it a garage? I think it's a garage without a door just one of those things that you drive underneath Oh right, okay Yeah but just in case your car doesn't like getting wet I've never understood that

My car loves getting wet because it's called a wash Yeah but also it's Britain Imagine if you had a car that didn't like getting wet You'd struggle really work Thank you for all of your advice to our listener Who's single at 32 You've been so lovely and thoughtful And told us about your own stories

And this is Sophie who says I'm from the generation of feminists where many of us were fighting to be taken seriously in what was still a very male-dominated workforce. She starts her email saying, I feel such sympathy with women in their 30s, looking around at friends, seeming to settle down happily around them. There wasn't much childcare,

it was hard to combine children and a career, so many of us found ourselves in our 40s without children. And for those of us, of course not all, who'd wanted children, suddenly finding time was running out and without the imagined perfect relationship, it seemed the ship has sailed. But here I am, 27 years later, with a wonderful adopted daughter from China, a joyful unconventional family built around her.

What I say to my younger friends is life is serendipitous, and you really can't predict what will happen. Many of those seemingly perfect couples around them will have divorced by their 40s, sorry to cast a dampner here, and families and relationships come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. like your listener from Sydney who advised Find Your Tribe, I would add enjoy as much as you can of the life you have

now. Who knows how it will turn out and it's sad to lose so much of it worrying about the future which I certainly did and regret. And Sophie is a professor. Thank you Professor Sophie. We've got another professor on the podcast because the big guest today is Professor

Kathy Willis who is Professor of Biodiversity at Oxford University no less and she's going to say some very positive and I hope meaningful things about our relationship with nature and just how much good it does us to be out in nature and in the natural world. So Fox poo, it's annoying. I'm not suggesting you embrace it,

but I'm just saying perhaps it leads to a, albeit tenuous connection, with the natural world. No, I think that's clutching its straws. Quite a few of you have, I think, rather stupidly gone abroad. And Sue says we're currently locked in a diabolical queue at Lisbon Airport. I mean, what better time to email your favourite podcast than when you're at a foreign airport. Our easy jet flight landed at 1207

and we were then directed to a queue for the EEC registration machines. Is that an old-fashioned way of saying EU? It is. Yeah, because it used to be called the European Economic Community. Yes, God, it's, I mean, that's got echoes of Norman LeMont and John Major about it, doesn't it? Come on, Sue, it's the EU now. Anyway, only five out of 15 were working.

If I ever released an album as a band, the second album would be called Echoes of Norman LeMont. Right. Okay, Norman LeMont, now he was the... His Chancellor of the Exchequer. There was some story about him in an off-license, wasn't there? I can't remember what it was. Let's just repeat it and spread it.

No need to check that one, Eve. Only... We're back at Lisbon Airport. Only five out of the 15 machines were working, and they were working slowly. About two-thirds of the passengers were failed on their fingerprints, mainly women, says Sue. It's all the manual work, me thinks. Really? Is it that our fingerprints are not as, I don't know, not as strong as they should be,

or have they been in some way impacted by contact with the sort of cleaning fluids that obliged to use. Do you think that's a possibility? No. Well, I don't know. And the women were directed to the manual desks, and of course there was only one or two of those open. Just don't go abroad. This is what I've always said. The border staff shrug, and they just,

that's another thing foreigners do. I don't know if you've ever noticed they shrug for you, especially in the face of British irritation. Just shrug. How dare they? The border staff shrug and just say, Q over there. It's up to two hours. There was no apology, no water and no food.

Could you look a bit more sympathetic? No, I am sympathetic because it would just be so frustrating, wouldn't it? And I think our correspondent does acknowledge that they're not with elderly relatives or friends or young children, but it's still an absolute pain and imagine if you were. But we did, I'm just trying to bring some balance here. Well, we did have an email from somebody the other day saying that they'd sailed through Alicante. Wonderful. Thank you.

Barbara Ballant. there. I'm usually corporate. What is it? Corporate Cathy. Corporate Kathy. I tell you what, she was in the house for the boat race coverage. She was. She sailed off into the distance. She'd given up rowing. Right, you're right. Sue does say, thankfully there are no kids as it's Wednesday, lunchtime. But if this is what's going to happen throughout the summer, heaven help us, says Sue. Well, Sue, I hope you're home, safe and sound. I mean, in all

seriousness, I know it's no fun. Lisbon is beautiful as well I mean it's well worth of business How frustrating To be stuck in Lisbon border control Yes that must be a bit grim But anyway Hopefully you're back home in Tumbridge Wells

Yeah I very much hope so I might get one of those little They're called trunkies aren't they You know those little Kids sit on Suitcases just in case There are some long weights Because I find standing up for too long

I don't know It just bothers me at the moment One of those things that you just identifies your ageing process, doesn't it? Where you just find yourself thinking, I stood up for too long. No, I absolutely couldn't agree more. Also, increasingly, I think, oh, I'll take that upstairs and then I think, nah, can't be asked. I'll do it later.

Yeah. I just posed this question to our gathered audience. Is there a cactus that isn't phallic? Well, this is the trouble we find ourselves in. We were fools, really, asking for images of phallic cactus. We've certainly had them and thank you very much indeed but I think my colleague raises a very good point

It's just the way they are They're just I mean let's face it They're just all big pricks But yeah they are They are I mean they're in no way An adornment to a house are they

I quite like a cactus Do you? I love a plant I love a house plant now I never thought I'd be interested But honestly they really cheer me up But why would you choose I think they're so kind of brutal and a bit grotesque and just weird. I like them for that. So they're the brutalists of the plant world? Yes. Okay. Yeah. But you like a blousey flower,

I like a cheery fan. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's good to know. We are going to do a great big long list of all of your fantastic comfort reading suggestions and that is going to be in what's known in the trade, the back anno section of the podcast. So back anno stands for back announcement. So we will get to the end of the interview. Jane and I come back in and we say something like goodbye. But this time round we're going to read out the lovely, lovely list of comfort reading. So if you are listening in the hope of that coming, it will be the other end of the interview. Yeah. So you do have to listen. Right to the very end. No cheetah. absolutely none. Eve tells us she's going to put a time stamp in. Kate has been to Cyprus

with Hubby. We just got back. We had a lovely time and there were no disruptions at all. So let's just, I'm Barbara balanced now just for a second. Plenty of people have issue-free trips from this scepadile and venture elsewhere. However, a minor form of tragedy did strike because on arrival I unpacked and there's every well-seasoned traveller does, I immediately set aside my return travelling clothes, including black bra, black pants and black vest. Imagine my horror on the day of our return when I realised I'd inadvertently brought the bra that has the dodgy clasp and this was the bra I'd set aside for 10 hours plus of travel. Luckily, I still had a natural coloured bra, unworn, but no matching pants. With your previous listeners warning,

ringing in my ears regarding emergency services, not treating unmatching underwear pears. patients imagine my dilemma. Did I travel unmatching on my most treacherous journey of the year, or did I wear the black bra and incur the pain of the inevitable welt the size of whales on my back? Well, I bet you're wondering, what did Kate do? What did Kate do? She went for the natural coloured bra, black pants and black vest. I decided she says that the vest matched the pants and the bra was quite unnoticeable. Thoughts please on this combination and also the wearing of vest stroke camis. I rarely leave the house without one

even in the summer. Thank you, Kate. I don't know what part of the world you find yourself in. Now you're back from Cyprus, but we're very glad you're back with us. I'm not a fan of the vest. I'm going to say it.

No, me neither. I quite like a body sometimes in winter because you can get really lovely thermal ones now. And so if you just pop that on, it means you can wear what you were wearing in October all the way through to December

without having to change its function because it's just keeping all of your lovely, lovely hot bodies in. But no, I'm not a big fan of the face. What is the definition of a camis? Well, I suppose it's just, I always think a cammy's just got thinner straps. Oh, yeah, the thin straps. I don't think the thin straps are any good for me. No, darling, I don't think they are either.

What would be the point? I'd be asking too much of them. Well, that's just a fair point, reasonably well made. Harrowing, but there we are. I am not the one who displays their brass eyes on this podcast Although if anyone's interested To us one of the really cruel things about middle age Is that your bust can increase

Want it? Just when you don't need it to What's the point, mate? What's the point, mate? We've had some great words on the... Sissy made a bit of a comeback Was it on the radio or was it on the podcast? It was here, yeah. And then bust. Bust.

I don't know why that. That's funny. You were saying the other day you've got a friend called Francis so you can't call Fanny. Let's leave it there. Well, we're going to glory in the natural world between now and the end of the program today. And our guest is Professor, Professor Baroness, Kathy Willis. Is that correct? Yes, it is. It's definitely Professor Baroness. I normally just say Professor, but yes. I know, go with everything. I've got a degree in English. I still reference it any time I can.

And a bronze medal for life-saving. Oh, okay. Don't feel the need to congratulate Jane on that. We'll get to the girl guides in a minute, I'm sure of it. We certainly will. Now, Cathy Willis is a professor of biodiversity at Oxford University. She's a cross-bench peer as well, and she's given this year's Octavia Hill lecture for the National Trust

on the subject of how nature makes us healthy. And if you'd like to hear that lecture, you are in luck because you can hear it on Times Radio this Saturday at 7 o'clock. And there's loads of really interesting stuff in that lecture. I was listening to it this morning. Can we just start with the way your lecture starts, if you don't mind, which is about the gallbladder, about people recovering from gallbladder surgery? Yeah, well, I mean, I originally got into this whole topic

when I was asked to a piece of work for a large international report. And in this report, my role was to find out the links between nature and health. And I just assumed it would be, you know, street trees, cool the area, you know, football pictures, make you healthy because you play more sport. And I kept coming across this study. It was published in the journal Science, which is a top science magazine, published in, I think, 1984. It was a long time ago where they just looked at patients who were in hospital beds. And half of them, they'd all had the same operation, which was gallbladder surgery.

And half them looked out onto trees. And the other half looked onto brick walls. And those looked out onto the trees took less painkillers. they were less upset within a hospital and they went home about two days faster. And I thought this was crazy when I looked at it. I thought, well, how on earth does you're in a, they're all in the same sort of bedrooms or the hospital rooms. And yet just by looking at nature, there seem to be all these different things going on in the body that improve well-being. Okay.

I mean, that just seems. And you say how long ago was that? Well, it was in 84. Right. But since then, there have been so many studies that have been built up. But particularly at the population level. So one of my favorites in Wales over the last 10 years, they've looked at the medical records of about 2.3 million people

over a 10-year period and measured their medical records. They looked at their medical records for common mental diseases. And at the same time, they've measured how far their home is from urban green space. And for every 350 metres further away from urban green space, these people live, they higher the levels of common mental diseases. And that is irrelevant to your socioeconomic background. In fact, people who have from poorer socioeconomic backgrounds had greater benefits, even greater benefits.

And it's not just mental health, there's also physical health, it's finding that the closer you live to green space, urban green space, they less your risks of cardiovascular conditions such as heart attacks and strokes. And there's a meta-analysis just came out this year where they've looked at 100 million people, 100 million studies, and found you have a 2 to 3% improvement in your cardiovascular health

and the reduction in risk from heart attacks and strokes, the closely it is that you live to urban green space. I suppose what's really important is that you as a citizen of this country or any country feel welcome in that space. Yes. First of all, you have to know it exists. Yes. Let's assume you do know it exists.

but would you feel safe getting access to it or gaining access to it? Well, I think access to it and actually even where it is is a really big debate right now because obviously we are having this big debate about housing and the need for more housing and therefore if you're putting the housing on top of your green space, where do you create the green space within an urban area? And unfortunately what we're seeing is over the last five years that as you have more and more urban sort of buildings and developments in cities, Yes, the developers are creating more green space, but unfortunately there's an inequality in access to that green space.

And in the poorer areas, the areas in the lower economic deciles, those are the areas that are losing disproportionately more green space and access to it. Right. So we need to be very, very mindful of all this, don't we? And it's not as if it's new. We have known about this. And Octavia Hill and the National Trust, they knew about all this, didn't they? Well, she was an extraordinary person. I hadn't realized. When I was asked you the Octavia of Hale Lecter, as you would, I thought, okay, I'll look up. I knew a little bit about her sort of setting up the National Trust or being one of the co-founders. But she was an incredible social reformer, and she very much led on creating a much better accommodation for the urban poor, especially in London.

But what people don't know her so well for is the fact she had a manifesto. She published a manifest on access to green space in urban areas because she said, actually green space was really important for people, for the urban poor, as well as everybody else. And therefore, again, arguing it was not only important for their recreation, but also for their physical and moral health. And she made the point very clearly in one of her, in this manifesto, that it's no good saying you can have an urban green space, you know, outside of the edge of the city, because that's not where people can access it in the evenings or at weekends. and if someone has to take a day off work to go and access the urban green space, that's not going to happen.

It's a fail. Yeah, it hasn't worked. I mean, going right back to the beginning of our conversation and about hospitals, I mean, did anybody take that on board? And when they're building new hospitals, do they try to ensure that every patient in recovery has a view of something from the natural world? One would hope so. I mean, we're not there yet, but there are lots of hospitals that are starting to look at this and look at it. And there's some fantastic examples, Horatio's Gardens, for example. There's many examples where individual charities and organisations are now looking at access to green space within the hospital confines, but that is not something that has yet been well embedded within National Health Service and at their building programmes.

I mean, it reminds me of the old mental asylums often came with working farms, didn't they? So back then, we seemed to have an understanding of all this. We seem to have lost sight of some of this. I mean, in Oxford, the Wormford Hospital, for example, which is one of our original sort of places for men, mental health conditions. There's a beautiful, big orchard outside, beautiful area of green space just outside the windows of that place. And yes, we did understand that. And we sort of, it was from the 1960s onwards, really, we became more and more sort of urbanised. We took plants out of the houses. So, I mean, if you can't get outdoors, the second best and actually sometimes just as

helpful is bringing nature indoors. But of course, in 1960 onwards, we moved to plastic, everything. plastic plants, you name it. And you think about go further back, you think about the Victorian parlour palms and all that green that you had in the houses, that has all gone. And I always slightly depressed when you go to some of these big home-based stores now.

And there are rows and rows of plastic plants. Well, there are. Can we just all speak up for the house plant? I take a lot of pleasure. I've recently acquired houseplants. And you're absolutely right. They are amazing things. They are. And it's really interesting. So the house plant doesn't, so when you look at a house plant, especially if it's got green and white leaves, or even a simple vase of roses on your desk. They've shown from a number of studies now that that will change your heart rate variability. It'll lower your blood pressure within 90 seconds of looking at this stuff on your desk.

Wow, that's incredible. So, I mean, these are automatic processes that go on. It triggers the autonomic system. And that will automatically change your blood pressure and your heart rate. It changes your endocrine system, your hormonal. levels go down of the things like cortisol and various other sort of high level stress enzymes and these hormones. But it also, something like a spider plant or any plant actually, will also, it'll seed the air with really good environmental microbiome. And this is the thing, you know,

this environmental microbiome is exactly the sort of thing that we all want because when we're in an area of really good environmental microbiome. Our gut and skin adopts the good environmental biome. So we can, one side, you can drink your probiotics. The other is you go into a biodiverse environment and you will improve your gut. Sorry, so you can walk through a palm house. Walk through a palm house. No, if you walk in any, I mean, you can walk in any, any park. Any park that's got, it's, the more biodiversity is and the more variation they have in different plants and, you know, herbaceous borders and shrubs and trees. So a community for these, community orchards and gardens we see now, they're really, really good for the bacteria.

They have really good bacteria in the air of the sort that actually is very good for your gut and very good for your skin. And what they find that people who spend time in those sort of environments also then find that they have a reduction in inflammatory markers in their bloods in the same way that we know now there's a very big relationship between your gut microbiome and actually various other health benefits. I'm very glad that you mentioned Horatio's Garden because I think what they are doing around the country with spinal injury units,

that's the point of the gardens, is quite phenomenal. And they use exactly the same kind of research that you are telling us about today. And I mean, it must be incredibly frustrating if you're in a different part of a hospital and you can see that Eratio's Garden has done this incredible thing. It is backed up by fact.

It is an astonishingly lovely place to be. But the rest of the NHS hasn't taken on board all the lessons that have been learned. And I don't want to, you know, pour any cold water on what you're talking about at all. But the chances of being able to make available enough funds to do this astonishing thing that we know helps people. We know that that's going to be a very hard ask. How do you change people's minds, you know, the people who are going to be critical of that? Well, I think, I mean, I think there's various ways. And I think, so when I was in this lecture and the work I've been doing and the research have been looking at,

we're very good. We've got a lot of information now about what happens when we interact with nature, sights, sound, smell, touch, even taste. So we sort of know the mechanisms of action or many of them what's going on. But the next bit we really need to demonstrate is the cost benefit. And that's where there are very, very few studies. And the studies that have been done, for example, there was a lovely study done in Copenhagen where they took people who had been off work for a whole year who was seriously mentally unwell.

And half of this group, they split the group in half. And half did once a week they did cognitive behavioural therapy with a trained psychiatrists. And the other half spent three sessions a week in the university garden, walking, gardening, doing other things. When they looked at them a year later, they were equally effective, 70% were. back at full-time work. But the really important thing in here is, first of all, one is much cheaper than the other. Spending three sessions a week in a garden is completely different in cost of having this sort of trained therapist. But even more importantly, when they went back a year later after that, so two years in, what they found was only 70% of those that originally had done

the gardening was still at work versus about 50% who had done the cognitive behavioural therapy. So there seems to be a longer term resilience that gets built up there. So the cost-benefit parts of that become really clear. And I think when we're looking at trying to make sure that we are efficient with the money that we do have to spend on the National Health Service, there's a strong economic argument, but we don't have nearly enough health economists working on this right now. And as a result, it's always pushed into the, well, that's nice to have,

but it's a luxury rather than this really can make a difference. Or it's left to the charitable sector. Or it's less a charitable sector. And that's, you know, and so therefore it becomes so variable. And there's, there are a lot of really good health walks being, you know, so many organisations are now doing health walks, which a GP can refer them to a health walk. But that requires a charitable sector and volunteers to walk with people. And of course, that's when it all falls apart. And the key thing about interactive in nature, many of the mechanisms of actions that happen in your body happen automatically.

You don't need to be walking with someone else. You know, you can go into a green space and you might feel in a foul mood. But when you go into the green space within about 10 minutes, you do calm down physiologically. And so the evidence base is very clear. And so it sort of we, but to get that across then into the medical profession is a much harder thing to do. Should you take your phone with you? No. No.

No, I, so absolutely not. For various reasons, one of the main ones, which I think is also a really important one, is that, and they've shown this as well, is that when you walk in a park, if you've got your phone, when you're looking at a phone, you're using your focused attention. And you know when you get sort of tired after you and look at the computer for a long period of time? Well, if you look at the green landscape, when you go back to the task in hand, you're much more accurate at it and much faster. And they're shown even staring out of a window under green landscape. When you come back to the task in hand, you do better.

And particularly with children, those children that can see green from their classroom window, There's a lovely study in Barcelona They looked at 3,000 children And they looked at the green on the way to school And they also looked at the green From how much green they can see from their classroom window And those that can see green from their classroom window Every time they went back to test them

Had done better and better in their cognitive performance tests Gosh, that's interesting So again, it's not just hospitals It's also classrooms, every classroom Every classroom in this country If possible should have something green on the wall Outside the window Let's just bring in the list

who are enjoying the conversation, Kathy. So Sarah says, In my darling dad's final days, a hospital bed next to the window on the ward became free. I asked that he'd be moved to it so he'd have a view of the trees outside. As a lifelong fisherman and lover

of the great outdoors, this outlook gave him real comfort and peace. Absolutely. It was worth the eye rolls I got from some of my family and staff who thought I was perhaps making a frost. But I've got no doubt, so Sarah, this small change made a huge difference to him.

I'm sure it did. I would have absolutely provided both physiological and psychological calming. The evidence base for that is really strong. Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it? Janey says, and I don't actually blame her for making this point. Perhaps the royal family could open up some of the thousands of acres owned by the Crown Estate, around Windsor, for example. Then people who live nearby could walk, cycle and run there.

Many people don't have a garden or a local park. Yes. I mean, what do you think? I mean, in fairness, if you're wealthy and you've got loads and loads of wonderful countryside that you own, then naturally you can be at one with nature but it's not possible for everybody. No, it's not. And I think, and also back gardens,

I mean, back gardens can be quite stressful for people if they can't get out, they can't garden. I get stressed by my back garden. As I look at it, they all know. But actually, it is having small pots of plants outside the front. It's being able to go to that very small local community area. This is why, you know,

things like these small scrubby areas that might, a community will get around or people doing this griller gardening in streets where they just plant stuff, this is what we're going to lose if we insist on building absolutely everywhere and filling in every last, you know, meter of land with building projects. And I went to Rotterdam a couple of months ago. And in Rotterdam, you know, this is what good looks like. There they've committed to creating the equivalent of 28 football pitches

in new green space in the next year. And it has to be publicly accessible. So they're putting green roofs on buildings, but you have to be able to get onto the green roof. I even saw a green roof with chickens on it. I didn't think it was possible, but it was. But in all these streets there, local people have got together because they're being given plants to just put in the streets.

And in the playgrounds, if you have a school playground, then they will give you, they'll give you 80,000 euros to green your playground. And I went to a couple of them. They're extraordinary. They've put, you know, they've children playing with them on pies. They've got greenery everywhere. And you can see these children are just, they're so happy and so embraced in the environment. And they've taken away football from these playgrounds because they said actually,

football is great for those that are good at it, but everyone else stands around the edge. And what they found is once they've got green in the playground, everyone is playing. But they're not necessarily playing ball games. Yes, I get it. I mean, football is marvellous, but you're right. It's not for everybody. And with the football, you have a, I mean, the key. thing then is it's these concrete

playgrounds where people are kicking balls around whereas you have got which is I'm not against football in playgrounds far from it but I think it's a really interesting they said their behaviour has changed hugely as a result of it just generally back in the classroom I think that's a really interesting link in there can we talk

about Rosemary because I love this little tip bit from your lecture and we are approaching the exam season it's very stressful for a lot of people what does Rosemary do so one of the one of the things probably I knew least of all about when I started doing this work is that when we take it when we smell a scent such as rosemary that scent is created by I think called a volatile

organic compound it's basically the carbon atom when it hits the air turns into a gas and that's what we're smelling and what happens when we smell those those scents is there's two pathways one it triggers the olfactory bulb and it affects the neural networks and things that we've talked about before. The other is those scents pass across the lung membrane or the compounds and into our bloods. And once they're in our blood, some of them interact with the same biochemical pathways as taking certain prescription drugs. Some of them do make you calmer. Some of them make you more awake. And Rosemary is one of those ones that affects the biochemical pathway that makes you more alert, more awake. And so what I did with my son, he was doing his A-levels at the time, one of my

And so I put a diffuser on his desk with Rosemary puffing out. And yes, he kept away. I mean, he did well in his exams. I can't say it helped his cognitive performance. But he certainly kept him awake. It's a stressful time. If you are approaching exam season, give Rosemary a whirl. I mean, just why not?

The other one is peppermint, which is really interesting. Think about how often we've chewed, you know, people say, you know, they suck of peppermints. They're awake in the car or chew gum. It is right. The smell of peppermint is another one that can trigger those same pathways that keep you more alert and awake. Surely instead of getting a diffuser, I'm not knocking your maternal abilities there at all, you could actually just get a pot with some mint in it.

Absolutely. Mint is a great survivor in the garden, isn't it? Oh yes, it is. Actually, Rosemary, I find it hard to kill my rosemary. My rosemary bushes just takes over. David, thank you for your images, actually, that you sent us this afternoon. David says, I love the trees I can see from my flat. I can't wait for the leaves to appear.

I'm looking at your tree, and I think, is it a London plain tree? I can't quite work it out, but thank you, David. It's a little bit visual for radio. Another David is in Sheffield and says, in this city we have the largest number of green parks in the UK built by the steel magnets. The city is considered the green city of Europe. Yes, it's fantastic. So there are some really, I mean, that's the other thing.

We can talk about the sort of deficiencies, but there are some really, really good examples in the UK. And Sheffield is one of them where I think most people, the argument is that you should be able to walk to green space, local urban green space and so that's the key thing it can't be a bus rider drive away or train and Sheffield

has that Ian says read the National Trust and low income access National Trust family visits and facilities and catering are unaffordable to low income families they have become middle class ghettos discuss I can't I mean I don't speak for the National Trust

I mean I'm an academic from Oxford I used to work at Q though Q gardens and I know I've taken my little kiddies back in the day to Q, and it is a middle class. I think, well, what Q has now done is they have introduced a sort of a £1, I think a £1 £1 entry for organisations. Well, I'm glad. Yeah.

And I think that's what we need to be looking at, certainly, for all of these, because they are, they are, you know, if you look at the founders such as Octavia Hill, you would actually really, really want to have access for all to these places. You are a professor at Oxford. I mean, there must be some beautiful walks there. There are. Yes. And I run a, I am in response to one of the colleges, St. Ebenhall, I'm the principal there. And one of the things I did,

we have got these big concrete buildings as we've got medieval and then big concrete buildings. One of the first things I did when I arrived there eight years ago was a very kind alum paid for us to put up a green wall. And so we have this lovely green wall. But also the gardens are so important for across Oxford. And actually what we do with our colleges is it is open. People can come walk around the gardens. there's no there's no requirement for them not to do so but there are many many parks in oxford and so yes this is there are there are places like oxford that are very green and we we need to we need to use that as an exemplar rather than um and say look this is possible it is possible to have you know high high quality high areas of housing but also to create these much more open

housing um examples thank you so much i really enjoyed talking to kathy willis is professor of divers at Oxford and the principal of St Edmunds Hall, as she says, and across-bench peer to boot. You can hear Cathy's lecture for the National Trust this Saturday on Times Radio at 7 o'clock. Now, lucky people, if you like to drift off to sleep whilst we say words out loud, because we're about to do a very, very long list. Eva's literally just settled herself back in her chair for this. She has very diligently compiled all of your comfort read suggestions.

Now, how should we do this? Do you want to do this taking it in turns or should we do two each, four each? Have you got your list? I haven't got my list. Okay, you're going to have to look over my list. Can I therefore suggest? Oh, yeah, I've got it.

There it is. Should we do two at a time? This is quite a long list, so here we go. Donna Leon Books, that's my recommendation. Light a penny candle by Maeve Binchie, Jane's recommendation. Right, and we've got phosphorescence by Julia Baird, and Mary Ann Schaffer's much love book The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society

Everywhere I look by Helen Garner What you're looking for is in the library by Machiko Ayayama The Full Moon Coffee Shop by May Mochizuki and Coming Home by Rosamund Pilcher All Creatures Great and Small by James Harriet The Marcia Willett books Lots of people love The Castle at Chronicles by Elizabeth Jane Howard

And other recommendations include Welcome to Glorious Tuga by Francesca Segal. The number one ladies' detective agency by Alexander McCall-Smith and a patchwork family series by Kathy Bramley. Cueing for the Queen by Sweeter Rana and 84 Charing Cross Road by Elen Hanf. The Lido by Libby Page. Love Nina by Nina Stibbe.

The Authenticity Project by Claire Pooley. The Bookish Life of Nina Hill by Abby Waxman. The Miss Read Books, or they could be the Miss Red Books, Diary of a Provincial Lady by E. M. Delafield. Georgette Hayer's Books and Theo of Golden by Alan Levy. The Ruth Galloway Mysteries by Ellie Griffiths and Miss Pettigrew lives for a day by Winifred Watson. Miss Bunkle's book by D.E. Stevenson. Cold Comfort Farm. That's a goodie by Stella Gibbons. And finally, Festered the Wind for France by H.E. Bates.

That's one for the cat there in his upgraded cabin. hope some of those books provide you with the comfort we're all groping for in these slightly frazzling times and if you want to bung us an email about absolutely anything you like but don't forget we're looking for cats on a ferry tips in particular and where jane and fee at times dot radio yes and actually in the light of kathy willis and her recommendations about being at one with nature let us know what at one with nature activities

you have done this weekend No, not dogging. Jane and Fee at Times.com. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.