Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Asleep most of the time, or drunk.

Episode Date: March 18, 2026

This edition is one for all you sailors - ahoy! Jane and Fi chat ships and fruity cruises, lemon curd, memorial benches, and charismatic famous people. Plus, Fi speaks to Rosie Maguire, Policy and Programmes Manager at the Centre for Thriving Places, and Clare Bracey, Director of Policy, Campaigns & Communications at Become, about what happens when private companies operate our care services. Ending Extraction in the UK Care System is a report that has been jointly put together by researchers at the Centre For Thriving Places, the Centre for Local Economic Strategies, the New Economics Foundation and Co-Operatives UK. You can find it on: www.centreforthrivingplaces.org. Check out our YouTube channel here: www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFi Our new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofza Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute. Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfi Podcast Producer: Eve Salusbury Executive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Now, this would be quite quick, because it turns out they're giving away free stuff in the canteen. They are. I don't need to get a wiggle on. They're giving daily dose cold pressed juice. I've got a super straw, which is strawberry, apple, lemon and basil. But you can share this. If you don't get there in time and they've given away all the freebies, I'll share this with you. What's the combination again in that?

Strawberry, apple, lemon and basil. Criky, basil. And it's cold pressed. I never really understand that. I mean, I understand what the term means. What does it mean? But, well, it's pressed in a cold way. But I don't understand why you'd ever have a warm press or a hot press.

Isn't that, that's what the Irish call the airing cupboard, isn't it? Yes, but you wouldn't put your juices in there, would you? Probably not. Unless you wanted to ferment them in double quick time. Oh, okay, so I think it's referring to the fact it's unpasteurised. Because it says locking in nutrients and maximising flavour, no shortcuts, no heat, no additives. just pure delicious juice that's no heat

no additives we could use that as a slogan for the podcast get that put it on a t-shirt right welcome it's Wednesday and as I strode and I did stride

this morning across London Bridge it was such a beautiful morning oh Jane is just phenomenal it's the kind of day where if you were at school and you had access to some outside facilities you would want your teacher

to say let's take the class outside do you remember that I do remember that yeah It's the most exciting thing, was it? Because it basically meant that you weren't going to do any work. Well, because you get distracted by a worm or something like that. Bloody lovely. Fantastic.

Now, look, I just want to bring some insight because we both know somebody who was at the Oscars. We share an operative with somebody who was very important at the Oscars. That's right. I don't like describing it as an operative. No, well, you won't mind. Because I don't know anyone who had ever been to the Oscars before. and this individual was going. And I just thought, well, I wonder if she'd tell us just a bit about it.

So anyway, she's been back in touch. This is all anonymous, but she was indeed at the Oscars. And, well, here's what she says. I would say it was long and curiously parochial. A bit damning, isn't it? Much queuing and waiting around while being hungry and dehydrated. But also really fascinating to see this huge machine up close, both as glamorous as you'd expect,

the insane charisma of a Michael B. Jordan up close is something else. But also, like any other trade awards show, sort of unglamorous, a bit like the nibbies, but better production values, which one should expect, given that I was told the Oscars costs $20 million. I'm not surprised, Jane. Great fun, though, crashing around L.A. and Malibu, enjoying the free ride. And then there is a PS, the sushi bar at the Governor's Ball.

was worth flying thousands of miles for, we hit it hard. Would you go near an open sushi bar at an event attended by thousands of people? No. Still no. You and me both. I wouldn't even take a pasteurized hash brown from an open buffet. I've got friends who, well, I've got a friend who won't have. have takeaways. She just will not have anything

that's delivered on a bike. She just will not eat it. Well, I understand where she's coming from. I do. I must admit. Do you know what? And this is terrible. I'm going to I mean, spoiler for life alert here. But as soon as you imagine glimpsing inside a dark kitchen, I think

the days of wanting a deliverer and just eats are gone. What's the definition of a dark kitchen? So a dark kitchen is a is a kitchen that isn't attached to a restaurant. So it is literally a food production line for delivery. So there are a couple of massive ones near where you live in West London on that kind of industrial zone out towards Heathrow.

Not that you live near the airport, darling. I know you don't. Actually, many very, very smart people in Richmond live extraordinarily close to Heathrow. That's true. Yeah, they do. So they can be anywhere. You know, they're not behind the restaurant that you think. you're ordering from and some of the real biggies i'm just going to say i don't know mind at all it's

a truth wagamama and places like that they have dark kitchens now so you can be ordering from basically the equivalent of a factory so the notion that it's your friendly local branch uh cooking up your preferred snack is a nonsense not always but often yes and and i suppose they wouldn't call it a nonsense because it's still exactly the same ingredients exactly the same food preparation but it's not what we're imagining is it. So I don't know whether that makes it better in terms of. My big thing is just what if somebody sneezes. So it's the same thing about shop-bought sandwiches.

If just one person was sneezed along the line and it could happen anywhere. It could happen in the Ritz. It could happen at the, what's it called? The Colonel What's-it's Sushi Bar? Yeah, well, the Governor's Ball sushi bar. The Governor's Ball sushi bar. Somebody, yeah, could have, you know, just had an atchu over there, sashimi.

And we're all going down. Our anonymous attendee refers to Michael B. Jordan's charisma. Who is the most charismatic megastar that you have ever encountered? Oh, God, I'm not very good on the charismatic megastars. I didn't even know how you define it, but there are some people who radiate... I don't know. It's more than star quality. There's a sort of presence that's quite electrifying.

Definitely. So Chris Martin does, and I met Chris Martin way, way back before Coldplay was really Coldplay. And he came in to talk about the work he was doing for Fair Trade in Haiti on Five Live. And he just properly had charisma, just properly, properly, properly, something about him, even way back then. And Brett from Swade, I couldn't, the only time I just couldn't actually formulate words in my mouth in a before. professional setting to interview me at the Mercury Awards when Swade won. And he was wearing some of term myself off there. I just don't think it was what Brett from Swade did.

Well done, girlfriend. So they were at the height of their indie pop powers. Yeah, or they were something, weren't they? Oh, they were something because they were very, they were and drogonous and lithe and sexy and all of that type of stuff. And anyway, he was wearing a very well-cut. suit with no shirt or even a vest underneath Jane and I was interviewing him and I just couldn't think of the next thing to say no just a suit with no shirt or t-shirt or vest no just a just you know

it's kind of rather angular fashionista body underneath it so I mean I wasn't having a lustful moment at all but doesn't sound like it doesn't it doesn't it was something about I just couldn't I couldn't find the words because there was just a lot yeah I suppose that is charisma what about you well I know is it Hillary Clinton and her boot Hillary Clinton and her boot we haven't heard that story about two or three weeks

let's not revisit that um I do remember well I do remember well I do remember feeling weak need in the presence of David's soul that's fine it's just look to cross isn't it but there's nothing to be ashamed of

because that's what we're talking about isn't it These people, they do exude something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they do. I wouldn't have had a picture of Brett from Swade on my wall. I mean, you know, but in their presence, it's a bit weird, isn't it? Yes, it is a bit. I lived in the same building as that, well, I think it was the bass guitarist from Swade when I first moved to London.

Oh, yeah. Well, get you. I know. Were you one of the beautiful ones? No. I was doing early, the BBC. I was asleep most of the day, or drunk. No, I don't think our paths would have crossed.

But I took some comfort from knowing, and it really irritates the life out of my offspring when I can point to the fact that I lived with actually with a male friend in a converted church, in a very fashionable part of London, and in the same building as a well-known indie band. Yeah, that is box-tick. Box-tick.

Yes, and now, of course, I'm a less glamorous and alternative-facing figure. Don't be ridiculous. You live quite close to Robert Harbman and Ed Faisie's sister. Things have moved on a little bit. Oh, you're a cruel. But accurate. I was listening this morning to,

I was listening this morning, to Stig and Kate, yes. Kathy Corporate. She's had a busy shift, actually, the last couple of weeks. And they were talking to Giles Corrin and Edwina Curry, which they do every Wednesday, between 9 o'clock and I could never remember what time. heard the same thing about eggs. Eggs and also benches. Benches.

What I was thinking about benches. Giles took a sort of wildly contrarian view on the... Yes, he did, I don't remember. On the memorial bench. I have always thought that putting a name on a bench is actually one of the lovelier things you can do when somebody's died. I think it's lovely. And I just can't see anything wrong with it

as a way of just marking a spot that somebody liked or I don't know I just think it's rather a lovely thing to do I suppose you can object to it and he did a bit but I honestly can't put the case for not putting somebody's name on a bench if they really loved a park or a view I completely agree it's nice isn't it and when you're wandering around parks

and especially if you go to a new place there's something so comforting and human about names being attached to views and benches and places. And, you know, when you see, you know, Sid and Bertha, you know, this bench commemorates all the times or, you know, commemorates the first time they met in 1928 or whatever it was, you just think, God, how lovely. All of these people have been here before me.

They've sat and looked at this view. You know, they've probably wept a bit or smiled a bit or snogged a bit. I think it's just a fantastic connection. Oh, blown their nose. Oh, blown their nose. All of these things are possible. No, I just think it's a really nice thing to do. There's a little park in Crosby,

which I walk through to get to the shops when I'm back there. And it's a very beautiful, very well-kept little park. It's not one of the massive ones. It's got the war memorial in it, which is also rather good, actually. It's rather beautifully kept. And there are a number of benches in there, including very close to the entrance, a bench marking or commemorating a boy

who died very, very young. And it's so beautifully kept. His family obviously keep it up with, they've got little, I think they're bluebells at the moment. And it's just, they've got these little pots on either end of the bench with the bluebells coming out of it. Every time I go past it, it just brings me up a bit. And you just think, hmm.

Yeah. I completely agree. And actually, I think the war memorial as well, maybe we get too used to walking past them. if they're in our towns, cities or whatever. But I do remember, in fact, whenever we went to France and we used to stay in very rural Mide Pyrenees in France and every single tiny village or Hamlet

would have this beautiful obelisk in the centre with so many young men from the village who never came back. And it just does make you shiver because these places are so tiny. you just think, God, they just lost a whole generation of their young men, you know, and were decimated because of it. And maybe it has less impact. I mean, of course it shouldn't because they're all human lives.

But, you know, in a city, I think really you don't, they, there aren't as many. I mean, it's as simple as that. And they're not as personal. So I love that memorialising of the individual. I don't think I'd ever want to laugh at it, really. No, I don't find it more. I would never object to anyone who elected to do that. I think it's just one of the lovelier ways of marking somebody's life.

My dad's got a bench looking out over, you know, what's always called the 19th hole on his favourite golf course. You see, that's great. Well, it is lovely, and it does mean, because he's got no headstone because he was cremated, and if we wanted to go back and be somewhere, you know, which is of significance, it's the bench that we're going back to. That's why it really... I think it's lovely.

It is lovely. I do find it sometimes you get the impression people object to something just because they've been asked to come on a... Do you think? A programme and have an opinion. I think it's... I mean, neither of us are right opinion pieces. At the moment, I mean, obviously we're ready.

But one of the reasons is, I can't speak for you, is that I just don't always have one. No, mine turns on a six-pence as well. I'm aware of it. I can't always conjure one. up and sometimes I just plain don't know. I mean, to be fair, we've both always said Trump was a tosser. And we've never veered from that.

But it's not a very long column. Anyway, press on. And if anybody is passing a beautiful bench or whatever with a legend on it that they feel worth photographing, we'd definitely take those, wouldn't me? Yeah. And also, you know, when you then walk past and there's a bunch of flowers. Yeah. And somebody's, you know, sat there and thought about their friend or their loved one or whatever.

whatever it is. You just think, oh yes, we're all still alive somewhere. This is breakfast presents. Dear Jane and Fee, last week myself and my friend Julia, were invited to breakfast at our friend's house. Sarah always is the hostess with the mostest. When we were invited to sit at the table, she had provided us both with a present of a freshly made loaf of bread, a photo from my daughter's wedding. I was the mother of the bride who has charged 30 pounds to try on hideous dresses. I remember that. We're still with you, Michelle. Plus what made us squeal with excitement, a bottle of the M&S disinfectant.

Oh my goodness. I know. This is what I was searching for yesterday. The smell is so lovely. I almost feel I should dab it behind my ears. Thank you so much for the recommendation. Julia and Sarah are true friends. We love the podcast. We feel like you're in our friendship group.

We are. P.S. They both have a tote bag. I'm only a little bit jealous. Well, there's some hot news on merch. Oh, yeah. It's coming. Well, aren't we having a meeting about it? I can't wait.

Well, actually, that reminds me, what did you call me? Corporate Cathy. She's back just briefly. Because I was at a Harper Collins, Claxon, event last night, marking, the new TV adaptation of Barbara Taylor Bradford's a woman of substance. Were you? Yes.

Pop-boiling saga alert, everybody. Well, this new Channel 4 show is written by my showbiz pal, Catherine Jakeways, who for years, and I don't think she'd mind me saying this, you know, was working, doing things for Radio 4, which were really successful. North by Northamptonshire was one of hers. And I thought that was really bleak, but brilliant, dark comedy starring Penelope Wilton, I think.

Anyway, but now she's massively successful. It's almost like she can cock a snook. But does she? No, because she's far too professional. Yes, because she's a woman of substance. Oh, she is. Anyway, I'm sort of three episodes deep into this new, her adaptation. of a woman of substance

and it is, it is, it does deliver. It's got Lenny Rush in it playing Emma Hart's brother and Will Mellers in it. There's something for it, it's great actually. I'm really enjoying it. I'm Brenda Blethen. Now Will Meller has a tendency. So does something for the ladies.

Yes, to be cast in the role of, I'm just, you may have to put explicit lyrics on the front of this kind of shaggable teacher. He's that kind of guy, isn't he? Let me just check. Do you check him? Will Mella, Shagabable teacher. Is he physics or geography?

That's what she's checking, Eve. I'm not sure you can say that. Can you say that? You know, I just have. You see, now everyone is thinking about that teacher. I mean, I'm just trying to... No, I think he's... I've seen him in something where he was a teacher having an affair. Right, okay, okay.

Well, no, he is playing in this at Emma Hart's dad. Right. So just to be clear about that. Right. It's not a teacher. But there's something about him in... I'm just to check up. Yeah, I'm going to do an email while you get on with this.

We're going to return to the theme of surprise parties. This one comes in from Beck, who says, my husband threw a surprise party for my 50th. I had no idea until the waiting staff gave it away when we arrived. Oh, you must be here for the party in the back room. My husband looked gutted and I did feel sorry for him. When I told one of my friends I had no idea of the surprise, she said, really? I always thought you were quite astute.

The clues were there when I looked back. Almost every friend I'd arranged to meet in the month before, cancelled on me last minute, all of them admitting after the event that they didn't want to be the person that ruined the surprise by accidentally making reference to it. Anyway, I had a nice evening Even if I did have to endure people singing

Happy Birthday at me, which I can't stand. Thanks for everything, missed your Monday. I'm with you back on the Happy Birthday I never know where to look. You know when people are singing, it's just like, do I look individually at people? I stare at the cave, do I join in? It's really awkward.

You and I both hate being the centre of attention. Gartling. No, I generally don't like a big party, Jane. I feel very uncomfortable about it. No. My curry night out. was just my perfect birthday evening. I think there were eight of us.

We had fantastic food. We shouted at each other in a restaurant. We were home by 8 o'clock. I think we booked at 6.15. People were a bit surprised. I wouldn't be. We were back by it and everybody came back and we had some drinks and we passed around the lens wipes, actually.

Because the late in life love treat had given me 200 lens wipes as my birthday present. It's practical and chic. Well, it's practical. I mean, look, we all need them. I'd never find any of them that useful. Well, the thing was, at one point, and bearing in mind, I think the average age of proceedings would have been about 56, 57, maybe even 58. So young. So young. And somebody spotted the lens wipes, and eventually one by one, everyone said, can I try it? Can I have one? Can I take one with me?

And so we were. We were cleaning our lenses at a birthday party. whilst my children, who are no longer children, young adults, looked on, just like, is this all there is to life? Pretty much. Yeah. And we were happy with it, actually. We were very, very happy. Let this be the place where you can recommend a decent lens wife. Yeah.

Unashamedly. As a gift, Jane, that is going to be the gift that keeps on giving. I would say for at least nine months. Now, Will Meller does, sorry, back with Will. Exceptionally well in the role of Emma Hart's father, I was right. Yes. Which is be absolutely clear about it. So there's, I would in these circumstances, not describe him as Shagabour.

Okay. But he is, he does do well as a bluff northerner. Okay, he simply does. He delivers exceptional flat capery. That's very good. And he's, you know, he's in Yorkshire. And I did check with Catherine last night, Catherine, at the Woman of Substance celebration event.

And it was filmed in Yorkshire. Just to be careful, because it's a celebration of Yorkshire, a woman of substance. It would have been hilarious if they filmed it in the Surrey Hills. because they were more beautiful, but of course they're not. It's filmed in New Yorkshire. I would say, though, that the city of Liverpool does play New York and not for the first time.

Yes, that often happens, doesn't it? It's very, very cleverly done with all the angles, but if you know some of the buildings in the city, you can spot it. But a bit of CGI in there as well, apparently. But honestly, it's a good show. If you just need something to properly wallow in and a story of a woman's life, you can immerse yourself in this.

Let's briefly go back to the Golden Hind. This is Andrew. Much of what you said about the golden hind is true, but it's a replica, so don't get too excited. Well, listen, Andrew, we had an email from the golden hind actually, explaining all this only yesterday. But either way, says Andrew, and he's obviously feeling very passionately about this,

it cannot compare to Bristol's SS Great Britain. Now, I've not been to the SS Great Britain. I know it is parked up in Bristol, but I've never been on board. Have you? No. No. I've never been on HM. Belfast either which he's just parked up outside here isn't it yes this is one for all you sailors this

addition um p s says andrew if either of you are ever typing golden hind which does have an e on the end be careful auto correct doesn't type golden hindu it's not a ship real or replica right okay so that's us told then he says and i think this is highly controversial m&s lemon curd hot cross buns are a triumph you're missing out andrew i can't agree uh when i hear the words lemon and curd, I am immediately taken back to Sunday evenings in my childhood. Sing something simple, rain, homework, school the next day, and crappy old lemon curd on a scorn. Sorry, makes me feel very maudlin lemon curd. I wish it well. It's mainly butter, isn't it? It's butter, sugar and lemon.

Ugh, isn't it? And then it's very odd when it gets turned into a pudding and called a posse. I don't like posits either Possets, I just I mean one one teaspoon and you're done aren't you I mean I put that

it's like Crem-Bruly no Oh I love a Crembrule Well it's the same as a Posset No it's not at all No it's not It's that quaking Thing

You know quakes No that's a panacotta Oh is it? Yeah Your creme brulee It shouldn't quake It should be a little It should be firm

Maybe I had a battery I think you did and I'm not sure that a posse has a wobble but somebody somebody will inform us Margie's him with a hard G sorry

that should be Margie shouldn't it yes I'll give you a wobbling posset if you're not careful no we don't do that I recently did on that kind of podcast I recently spent

what's happened to us I recently spent a month in Australia visiting family and staying in Perth Melbourne and Sydney cool I've since been fascinating folks. Well, that's what I like to think with my carefully curated reels on Insta and Facebook.

To one of these, the dreamy Beach Files reel, I used a lovely Harry Styles track I found. No, that's what it was. Was it? Water manager? It was. Imagine my blushes, well, in fact, allowed before

when I heard your big reveal of this term, hey-ho, it reminded me of a pineapple incident while we were away. We were at a family for a barbecue, and my cousin's daughter had recently returned from a cruise. She noticed the pineapples on my sister's canvas shoes and started laughing because apparently an upside-down pineapple on a cruise cabin door

indicates a certain inclination. Similarly, an upside-down pineapple prominently displayed in one's supermarket trolley has a very distinct meaning in modern social etiquette. Who knew, did you? Well, I mean, I didn't and I still don't. What does it mean? I'm looking to Eve as a young person and correspondent who's far more out in the world and also has access to a telephone.

looking it up. It's quite a bold claim to... So you're on a cruise, which neither of you... Neither of us, neither of you. We don't want to do that. We don't want to go on a cruise. Signal used in the swinging lifestyle. Okay.

Well, that's interesting. It means the individuals are open to meeting like-minded adults. Right. So if you're going around Aldi, little waitrose, and you put an upside-down... You just put your pineapple in the wrong way up.

Yeah, it's commonly used as a secret symbol on cruise ships, in campgrounds and in social media profiles. Yeah, cruise ship doors. Good God. I'd absolutely no idea. I thought people were just going the wrong way up the down. You'd see the Gothic architecture. Right.

It's educational this, isn't it? I'm really worried. Not that I'd ever buy a pineapple. I can't think of anything I'd want less. But just be wary if you are out and about doing the weekly shop. And a pineapple is part of your... weekly. Sorry, can I just be very practical about this?

An upside-down pineapple on a cruise cabin door. So you actually have to get a pipe. Or are there stick-on? Upside-down pineapples. You have to say, Brian, don't forget the sticker of the upside-down pineapple to put on the door. That's so bizarre, isn't it? Or everybody, so you've got the breakfast buffet to return to where we started. and you've got all your melons and all your apples

and all of that kind of stuff but all the pineapples are gone all people are getting the real pineapple and nailing it to their door well it would be very difficult to do well look I mean somebody somewhere we'll be able to tell us first of it sometimes for two women who've been in the world

a very long time we're so naive Eve is now showing us a picture okay but those are superimposed aren't they I think it's like a sticker but they've They've got a holiday version of a pineapple and they've put sunglasses on the pineapple. Do you know what? That's just, I'm just immediately

I'm feeling very, very queasy. Gosh, I want to bring in Leslie who's a little bit more. Well, it just takes us somewhere else. We were talking about phone calls whether they really are recorded for training purposes. Eve has gone.

She's been doing this for getting on for, is it three or three? and a half years. Oh, dear. She's finally lost it. Very important. Recorded phone calls. They are indeed used for training purposes, says Leslie.

It's not just the polite eye you hear at the start of every call. I work in, oh, my nose. Excuse me, Leslie. I do apologise. I'd like to apologise to my colleague as well. I work in learning and development for a large organisation and real calls are gold dust for learning, especially the ones that probably should come with their own popcorn.

I'd like to hear more about those, please. I would actually. And I hate to think of people angry members of the public berating some poor soul on the other end of a phone line. But let's face it, people do get angry and frustrated, don't they? And they may well be tempted to do exactly that. Don't. Because the poor person at the end, they won't be the ones responsible.

So do you think that you would be able to inform us, Leslie, as to whether or not, when we've heard, as the caller, that calls may be recorded, thing, me, jiggie, is that releasing our kind of, rights to our conversation by staying on the line and we agreeing that they can use it for training and recording purposes.

That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that. I've always taken it as a bit of a warning to behave. Yeah, serve I. But you must be kind of, are you giving your permission that it can be heard by other people just by dialing that number?

And if it can be heard by other people, can it be heard by us now? I mean, I'd just love to get my hands on some of those ones that are used in HR and training. Do you remember the man, who was taken to A&E because of his blue duvet. I do remember him, yes. Leslie says, this is another one of her stories.

I was two weeks overdue with my son and booked in for an induction. Oh dear, yeah. 27 medics looking panicked, a hideous 36 hours. Okay, well, we'll leave that bit. Knowing the induction date at least gave me time to preen, including a pedicure, which was instantly undone, of course,

when they just scrubbed off the varnish to check circulation. After the drama, I was kept in for a couple of days. delighted when I heard whispers of being discharged, right up until several frantic faces appeared, announcing that instead they were moving me to high dependency because they feared I was jaundiced. Long story short, ish, once they got me there and started removing the little monitor pads, did anyone think to check whether I'd simply been a tiny bit over-enthusiastic with fake tan? Spoiler, I had. I was sent home that afternoon. Right, okay. So just if you are doing, putting yourself on a kind of baby moon and taking your best self into an NHS hospital for a birth, it's just worth bearing that in mind. Go easy with the fake tan. You don't need a pedicure. In fact, it'll be a nuisance and they'll just take it off. Yeah. So is everybody clear now? Two great tips. Yeah. Thank you very much. And sometimes the very, very orangey fake tan does look like people are extremely ill, doesn't it? It's a very weird.

colour? Is it? I don't, I've put it on the girls sometimes. I mean, my children, I mean, when they ask, with help with the back and stuff like that. But I've never put it on myself. Oh, no, I tell a lie, I put it on my foot once to see what happened. It just went a funny colour. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, but I can't imagine you spray tan. You never want a fake tan. Well, sometimes in, sometimes in summer towards the end of a holiday when I just get incredibly frustrated that I can't, I can't tan. No, I don't just, no, I've never had a spray on. But I'll buy a bottle of fake tan. My fake town has been quite legendary over the years on holidays because it's always just rubbish. I'm sure it isn't, but it would be better than mine. I know it is. No, it's totally rubbish.

It always gets laughed at. What was that? There was a funny episode of Friends, wasn't there? Yes, where Ross goes to a tent to be sprayed down. He doesn't really listen to the instructions properly. But again, Jane, it's just one of those things of modern life.

I don't really want to get all of my kit off and put on some strange goggles and lift up my bosoms and be sprayed by an automated robot. I'm just okay in life without that ever, ever happening to me. I mean, that's going to happen to us in our dotage, isn't it? Because we'll be cared for by these robots. And I'm happy to wait until then. Yeah, okay.

Yeah. And I think actually maybe, maybe that's it. Maybe I'll save a tented spray tan is the thing that I'm going to want to live for as an octogenarian, maybe. Right. We could go on, couldn't we? But we probably shouldn't. No, we shouldn't because we've got some very important guests

and they're going to take us to a place that is far more important than all of this drivel. So make a gear change with us, kind of from gear one to gear five, in fact, prepare. We are very open to bringing you guests on subjects that you want to hear more about on this programme and our next two guests are here by popular demand because whenever we've grazed across the subject of children in care, quite a few of you get in touch asking for us to dig a bit.

bit deeper into what's happened with children's homes in particular in this country over the last decade or so. We also heard about this from our guest Anne Cleaves last year when she came on to talk about her latest Vera book called The Dark Wives, which has a theme of kids in care, something very close to Anne's heart as a former social worker. She was outraged at the notion that these homes have become profit opportunities for wealth funds and investors, and she very much believes that that's at a cost to the kids who are in them. The cost is clearly revealed, but the cost is clearly revealed, by a report by Centre for Thriving Places as part of a program called

Reclaiming Our Regional Economies. Now, the report reveals that private companies operating care services in just three regions in the UK have extracted over £250 million in profit in just three years. Now, these are care homes, not just children's homes, but the report is clear about how the funding of these services in North East, South Yorkshire

and West Midlands combined authority regions has been hugely beneficial, to investors, £45 million was paid out in dividends to shareholders alone. Rosie McGuire is the co-author of the report. So I think just in those three years, in those three regions, there was £250 million in profit. That in of itself, in the conversations we're having today, feels like an important starting point. But I think once you start to drill down in that, there was £88 million that was taken out by organisations that either were private equity firms, or were based in tax havens or some combination of the two.

And that's money that really, you know, that's not coming back into those local economies because it's been taken out by organisations that are either not in this country or, you know, the way in which they're structured, they put in an investment because they want to take money out. It's not going back into the care system. Why aren't there any systems in place, Rosie, that mean you cannot, as a private investor, take that amount of money out of public services, is there literally nothing within the process of privatisation

that can guard against that? Well, I think the process of privatisation starts with first turning what are these relational public service into a product, into a thing that's commoditised. I think we have to start with that. What have we then defined can be bought and sold? So I think there's something there is a national conversation we need to have about what is care.

what is these things that we should be providing for young people. In terms of what is possible within current legislation, there's actually things that local authorities can do, and I'm not sure that they all understand, you know, the limits and the potential of what's possible in procurement legislation. They can work with the local market to kind of support and encourage different types of local organisations, ones that are less profit extracting or extracting in other ways.

And there's some really exciting things coming up at the moment about regional care co-ops, which is about supporting local authorities to band together and think about what it is they can do to commission within their local market and encourage other forms of business. We don't necessarily have anything at the moment about limitations like pure hard lines. There's a conversation happening in Wales at the moment. There's new legislation coming in there where they have prohibited from this year extraction of profit in children's care, but we don't yet have that in England. The underlying structure of what we're talking about is care is a commodity.

And I think we have to start with a conversation there about what we can do to reduce that. And then what can we do around procurement and what we can do about supporting local care ecosystems to kind of design that out. What do you believe that lack of reinvestment has actually meant to the care systems, in particular, those three regions that you've looked at here. So I think if we look at children's homes in particular, I mean, one thing there is about property and buildings. If money's taken out, it's not being put into either maintaining or supporting, and this is where, you know, a lot of money can be extracted in buildings

and making sure that the future children's homes remain. I think another side of that is in staffing. I mean, one of the things that we talk about in extraction is not just the the money that's taken out, but also the extraction from the workforce, from the people that care for our children. You know, that is a vocation and it's an act of love, and that's often underpaid and undervalued. Whilst at the same time, a lot of those in some of these more extractive practices have directors that are taking that money out. So there's a real inequality there, even within organisations and institutions. And just going back to that local economy point, if we're not looking after local workers with this money that we're putting into

the system, then it does also have a knock on effect on what they're able to do, how they're able to look after their families. I know that in your report, in fact, you identified that directors of some of these companies were earning up to 60, 60, 60 times more than the average wage, while frontline care workers were often paid below the living wage. I mean, again, I suppose it's the same question. Why isn't there something in place? that might prevent that quite unbelievable disparity? I mean, I don't think I have an answer. I think that's a question that probably ourselves, yourselves and all the listeners today.

Alan should be asking of our MPs. You know, we're talking about things that are public services, our public goods. What is it that we should be doing collectively as a society to say, what is, and it's not possible. And I don't know if you saw in the report, there's, you know, the top 15 children's care homes are making 23% profit. There's obviously a lot going on here. So there is a societal question.

There is a question to those who've had the power to make some of these decisions. Privatisation, obviously, is meant to alleviate the burden on the public purse. I mean, does it at least do that? It doesn't look like it, given that all we're hearing all the time is the care system is at breaking point. I think Baroness Casey quoted last week that was about social care. But we know that lots of local authorities are also facing significant financial challenges. within that element of care, whether it's children's care, or whether it's the send system,

which is another part of this conversation, you know, public sector in general is really struggling. And I think even if you just look at those figures that is a snapshot, the fact that that money is able to be taken out, there's something obviously not quite working here. If on one hand we've got public sector stretched to the limits, and yet on the other hand, that amount of money is able to be taken out. And yet people in general don't necessarily feel that the system is working,

to the best of its ability. That is Rosie McGuire from Centre for Thriving Places. Well, let's pick up all of that with Claire Bracey, who's Director of Policy Campaigns and Communication for Become. Hello, Claire. Good afternoon. Can you just tell us a little bit about what Become does? Yeah, so Become is national charity,

supporting children and care and young care leavers, and we do that in a variety of ways. We provide services to young people to help them make sure they know what their rights and entitlements are, but also to help them thrive, to help them develop in their lives in different ways. So lots of services. We train professionals too so that professionals can give better support to young people. And we campaign for changes to the care system.

We work alongside young people and we campaign alongside care experience young people. So we listen to what they're telling us and then we campaign together to make those changes that they're telling us are desperately needed. Okay. Given all of that experience, Claire, let me ask you the big question. We spalled back time to when privatisation of care services was first introduced. Do you believe that there should have been a better outcome than the one that we have now? Absolutely.

I mean, I think when we're hearing about profit and markets and private equity, it's really easy to forget that what we're talking about here are children's homes, where children are growing up. And it's children that are paying the price for the situation that we are in now. We shouldn't be in the situation that we are in today. That is not having a good impact for children. In fact, it's having a devastating impact on their lives. But privatisation shouldn't necessarily be bad. I mean, it should relieve the taxpayer of a burden. It can enable a more nimble way of operating.

So what's happened here? Yeah, and I should say, you know, we don't believe that all private provision is bad. There are some private providers who are doing excellent work, particularly supporting children with more complex needs. But yes, it is a more complex picture. I think if we look back, you know, in terms of how we got to where we are today, it's a variety of things. First of all, we've had more children coming into care,

particularly, you know, over the last decade. So we've had a big increase in children coming into the care system. Money that was spent on early intervention to try and prevent that, things like Shaw Start Centres, for example, that money stopped. and instead, you know, we were spending money at the emergency end of the system instead. And then a number of local authority-run children's homes reduced over the years, partly due to cost, but also a result of maybe not wanting to carry risks that were associated with abuse scandals that we saw in children's homes too.

So that combination of factors has enabled private providers to step into that space, really, and I think that's partly why we are where we are today. Why are more children coming into the care system, Claire? Well, I think there's a variety of reasons. I mean, we definitely have seen an increase in poverty and that might play a part. We also actually, when you look at the data, children are coming in who are older. So we've got more teenagers coming into care. So actually the demographics of children coming in and needing care has changed quite a lot over the years too.

And again, there'll be a variety of reasons because every child is different and every case is different. but we're certainly seeing older teenagers coming into care and maybe it's a system that wasn't set up to begin with for older teenagers. I know one of the things that you are very keen to highlight at Become are the distances that some children and young people are having to go in order to get a place in a children's home. And I think it's true, isn't it, that children in private children's homes are two and a half times more likely

to be living far away. Now, by far away, you mean more than 20 miles from home, which must have obvious problems and consequences. Yeah, it has a devastating impact. And, you know, partly this is the result of children's homes being built in places where it's cheaper, where property is cheaper. What that means is children then are having to be moved across the country. So 18,000 children in care right now are living more than 20 miles away. that's one in five. And the impact for them is, it's completely devastating. So if you think about having to move far away, it impacts your education. So, you know, you're going to maybe have to move schools or if not, you're going to have a very long journey to get to school. It's definitely going to impact on your friendships, not being able to stay connected to your friends, to people

you care about, to your siblings, your brothers and sisters, for example. It can make you feel very lonely and isolated. And I think a key one as well is, you know, a greater risk of exploitation because if you're moved far away, you're probably not going to have the people who know you, who are looking out for you and recognising the signs, perhaps, that you are at risk of exploitation. So lots of different impacts for young people. And, you know, that's just as a result, really, of investors driving where homes are instead of where children actually need them to be. The amount of money local authorities have spent on private children's homes has increased a lot, hasn't it, three and a half times in the year 2023 to 2024. Why so much? Well, I think if you think about the numbers, private providers, 84% of children's homes are run by private providers. That's a 60% increase over the last five years.

So, you know, they have dominance over the sector. Councils are forced to compete and providers can decide which children to homes. So it's a really challenging situation for local authorities because they don't run the homes, they don't have the ability to direct where those homes need to be. And private providers can charge what they want to provide. Sometimes stories make it into the papers and onto radio and television that just seem mind-boggling. It's not unusual for fees to exceed £8,000 a week for a child with complex needs.

I wonder, Claire, whether you can put that into context for us. I mean, is that just, you know, quite a kind of eye-catching headline? What's the reality around that figure? Yeah, so it's going to vary. And I think what I would say is there are some children who do have really complex needs where those costs are going to be high. ultimately, you know, nationally across the picture, we are seeing, you know, a huge amount of money that is being paid out. And that's money that should be supporting children who have been

through, you know, unimaginable trauma, supporting them to heal, to thrive. And instead, you know, that money in some cases is going into the pockets of shareholders, you know, that that's not acceptable. Do you think, as Rosie so clearly outlined, that the huge problem around this is it's quite a hidden world, isn't it? It is probably quite easy for most people to look the other way, for most people not to know somebody who has grown up in care and for most people not to realize the devastating consequences that can accompany that. Yeah, and I think that's right, because if you think about adult social care, you know, most of us will have family at one point who are going to need adult social care, but with children's social care, it is more

hidden. So I think there is a lack of understanding. There's probably some stigma there too in terms of misunderstanding why children go into care. So that has an impact too. But we definitely need to have a strong focus on this issue because it's not acceptable for the young people who are in care right now to be experiencing that instability, those moves. It's having a really devastating impact for them and their outcomes. Is change of foot under this government? Well, I think that has been really positive, actually. If you think this is not a situation that has appeared overnight, this has been an issue that has been there for many, many years.

And I think the government, you know, recognised the scale of the issue, and they have been taking action. So, for example, we've got the children's well-being and schools bill going through Parliament at the moment. That introduces, you know, a number of really welcome measures, including better financial oversight and the powers to bring in a profit cap, for example. and as well as, you know, some other important developments within that bill. They've also recently announced a National Fostering Action Plan, which again is a really welcome step,

but what it doesn't do is show the full picture. You know, children won't always, a foster home won't always be appropriate for children in care. You know, we will always need to have residential care too. So it's really important that we understand that full picture. What we want to see, what we think is missing from what the government are doing at the moment, is a national sufficiency strategy. We really need accountability at the top, and that means that they need to provide a plan

for how they are going to manage this over the coming years, not just fostering, but children's residential care as well, because children in care are counting on it. How many children are in care across the UK at the moment, Claire? We've got over 80,000 children in care right now, and as I said earlier, 18,000 children, one in five of them, are living far away from their local areas. So how can people do something about this if they're listening and thinking, yeah, I've got a view.

I want to express it. I'd like to see some change. But I think absolutely get in touch with your MPs. You know, it's really important, particularly for young people, that their voices can be represented in Parliament too. So the more people we have telling MPs about the issues, saying that they care about the issues, means we can keep up that political pressure and make sure that changes happen for children. Claire, you said that local councils wanted to move away from providing their own care, their own children's homes, because they were worried about the risk of, for example, abuse scandals. But presumably abuse scandals are no less likely in a private setting. What would you say about that? Yeah, and I think that's true. If you look at sort of, you know, off-stead reports as well, not just abuse scandals, but in terms of the quality of care, you know, it's mixed across the country.

different inspection reports that you can read. And for some young people, you know, they're having a great experience for others. They are living in, you know, really not good enough homes. So it doesn't really matter whether it's private or local. We need to make sure that children are living in really good quality homes. Yeah, I mean, is it Offsted who goes in, or is it the CQC or is it both? Well, Offsted are responsible for inspecting children's homes, and those reports are publicly available as well.

Right. You see, most of us, as Vee was saying earlier, this is a world that's, because we've been very fortunate, so alien to us that we just don't know anything about it. I mean, I suppose it's also true that we might very well be benefiting because we won't know what our pensions invested in. I mean, is there anything we can do about that? I mean, that's a really good question and one I just wouldn't have an answer to, I'm afraid. But it is true, isn't it, that quite a lot of this money, this extraction, as it's called, it does end up abroad, doesn't it? it's quite often maybe a sovereign wealth fund that might be interested in our care homes, hedge funds, places that, you know, aren't just outside Reading or Birmingham. I think it's really important that like that we eliminate profiteering from children's social care. You know, we said earlier, private provision, there's some great private provision happening.

But profiteering is something that we really need to eliminate. in the Children's Well-being Bill, there are powers to bring in profit caps the private providers. But it's really unclear at the moment, actually, how that would work in practice. And so, you know, we need to understand a bit more about what the government plans to do there to tackle that. Well, we would certainly like to keep in touch with you on that front, Claire. And thank you very much indeed for talking to us this afternoon. Claire Bracey is Director of Policy Campaigns and Communication for Become. Now, we were hoping as well to talk to a children's minister to did.

but unfortunately times are a little bit busy. A spokesperson for the Department for Education, though, has given us a statement. I'll just read it out. Vulnerable children across the country have long been let down by years of drift and neglect in children's social care, but this government is gripping the issue and taking swift action to fix the broken care system. Through the children's well-being and schools bill, we're introducing tough new laws to tackle profiteering in children's homes and will not hesitate to take further action to cap-provide.

of profits if unacceptable profiteering continues. We want all children in care to be in loving homes where they get the support they need, which is why we're investing £2.4 billion in the family's first partnership programme to stop children entering care by keeping families together and to have laid out ambitious plans to boost the number of foster homes available in England. So we're very grateful to Claire Bracey from Become for joining us. And we should go right back to the prompt for this, which is the remarkable work of Anne Cleves, who as a former social worker herself, heard a piece on Radio 4, didn't she, on File on 4, about the privatisation of children's homes in the North East, and it sparked her curiosity. So she wrote a novel about

it, one of her Vera novels. Yeah, I think it was it the... The Dark Wives. Yes, all about the stones. And she said it's her only angry crime fiction work that she ever written because she was so furious about it. And she has really helped make the public more aware of what's going on. So we're very grateful to our listeners who wanted to hear more and for suggesting guests in the first place. And it's definitely a story that we're going to keep our eyes and ears on. 100%. Any thoughts from you on anything you've heard in this podcast, including the really silly bits, which I regret to say were earlier in the podcast, and which were not my fault.

Which were completely your fault. Don't start doing that. Goodbye everybody. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you.

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