Off Air... with Jane and Fi - At least I'm owning my own hypocrisy

Episode Date: December 14, 2022

Jane and Fi discuss Joanna Lumley's recent comments, being given presentation pickles, and the need for more lollipop people in Marrakesh. They're joined by Teresa Weiler, who opens up about the process of finding out her birth parents were siblings, and why it meant she didn’t want children of her own. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Assistant Producer: Kate Lee Times Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Podcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Shall we kick off? Let's kick off. Let's kick off. Let's kick off. So it's Wednesday, it's Morocco France tonight and we're very much Moroccan, we're all Moroccan this evening aren't we je ne sais pas well no I am, why I love the bit about the player

dancing with his mum the Moroccan player, it would be a big first for the Moroccan nation is it because you've lost all of your French connections because we're no longer part of mainland Europe are you making a political statement? I've got a very good friend who's French, actually.

She listened to the radio show and got very angry the other night when I said I was supporting Morocco. So maybe I'll keep it on the down low. But I have been to Morocco and I had that experience. Well, in that case, you're practically a national treasure.

I've also been to France. In Morocco, I'm sure I must have mentioned this before, we went to Marrakesh. I was with my kids when they were quite young teenagers. We went to Marrakesh Market. Have you ever been there? I have. It's busy, isn't it? It's incredibly busy and it's a very...

If you're not used to that sort of environment it's actually slightly intimidating if I'm honest. You've got everything. The traffic, I'm here to say, they need some lollipop people over there in Marrakesh. It's very poorly managed. Also, there are just, it's just a plain fact that young women get attention from the men

and it got slightly out of hand. And there were also, did you see the juggling monkeys? No, I saw a lot of snakes. Yes, snakes. Snake charming is a proper thing. Snake charming, and you've got monkeys who are sort of hurling things around. It's all just a long way from East West Kensington, which is obviously why we went,

but it was perhaps a little more than I could cope with. Anyway, the day after, we hadn't really been able to buy anything at the market because we were surrounded by people. I went back to the market on my own. No attention at all. Well, that's the problem. So I was completely left alone.

I bought a rug and went back to the hotel, just a little bit the reasons why I wanted to briefly mention this slightly unwelcome intervention about the Me Too movement from noted thespian Joanna Lumley. Oh God, we've made quite a leap there, haven't we? Well, no, because it's sort of all about the double standards that surround this. You know, I think I honestly was a bit hacked off that I was able to shop unmolested in any way, shape or form in Marrakesh. You can't have it both ways. Well, that's what I'm saying. I mean, you know, we're all, I'm owning my own hypocrisy. But Joanna Lumley has said this thing,

which I think she said before, and it's not completely unknown for women of this age to make slightly unhelpful remarks. It's all along the lines of women used to be tougher and she believes it's the new fashion for people to say they're a victim. Looking back on her early modelling days, she said women looked after themselves and were tough, as she talked about sexism and harassment in the magazine Prospect. We were quite tough and looked after ourselves, she said. The new fashion is to be a

victim, a victim of something. It's pathetic. We've gone mad. Well, that's the view of 76-year-old Joanna Lumley, and she's been more or less taken apart by a journalist called Charlie Gowans-Eglinton in The Times today, who just says, I understand that my generation in particular, I'm a millennial, age 34, is seen as a bunch of moaners. We moan about property prices, cost of living, plateaued low salaries.

But if those were real issues, then our country would be in crisis. We're just being snowflakes, right? And then we come to violence against women. Lumley isn't the first to suggest that the whistleblowers in the hashtag MeToo movement needed to toughen up, that they were blowing things out of proportion. It's a go-to when it comes to quashing women's claims. And she just goes on to list a very familiar load of hassle, some of it minor, some of it major, that she's had to put up with since she was 11. And we know, I won't repeat what she went through because it's entirely the

sort of stuff that my daughters have put up with, that I've had to a degree that your daughter's probably putting up with. I mean, it's just unending apparently but it just doesn't help when senior representatives say things like Joanna Lumley felt the need to say I wonder whether it's ever crossed Joanna Lumley's mind that actually what might have happened is that women weren't able or didn't feel that they could talk openly to each other about their experiences because I she's not the only woman of that age no she isn't to come out with that kind of line you and I've worked with some women in broadcasting who aren't particularly welcoming of our generation's ability to have a right old moan in order to make things better but i think quite often it comes

from that simple place of just only ever really hearing your own voice yeah you and i talk loads our generation of women talks loads the next generation under us you know they emote they talk and emote and everything's on display so we know more about everybody else's experiences so i just always feel really sad when I hear an older woman saying that because just, you know, listen to what everybody's saying now, love, and shut up. Yeah, of course you wonder. It's just unhelpful. Why should you have to toughen up about something that makes you feel really uncomfortable?

And also she's in a really gilded position. I mean, I don't mean to, you know, diss the woman personally, but clearly nothing horrendous happened to her. What happened to her along the way she managed to bat off. Or if something really horrendous did happen to her, I'm really sad

that she doesn't feel able to share it with us and have a group hug. It's just incredibly unhelpful and can she please pipe down? I suppose we ought to say as well we don't know whether she was asked directly about this. It's just incredibly unhelpful. And can she please pipe down? I suppose we ought to say as well, we don't know whether she was asked directly about this. It's very difficult when other interviews are reported and you don't always know what it was the journalist asked.

The question might have been, do you think that this current generation of women should really toughen up? Yes. If I were ever asked that question, I'd say, yes, absolutely, stop complaining. Pull yourselves together. It's just a bit of groping. For heaven's sake, we've all put up with Yes. But if I were ever asked that question, I'd say, yes, absolutely. Stop complaining. Pull yourselves together. It's just a bit of groping. For heaven's sake, we've all put up with it. Well, hopefully you'll be able to get out your Moroccan rug, roll it across

the room and say, let me tell you a story. Make yourself comfortable. I'm about to begin. We've had more from Ruthie. We're just going to do one anecdote a day from Ruthie, because otherwise we'd all be overloaded. It'd be like eating the entire box of celebrations on Christmas morning. It really would. But, Ruthie, your showbiz life continues to delight. Shall we share the working with Sting anecdote? Because I used to have a thing about Sting.

OK, well, look, I'm going to give you that sheet and I'll hand over to you right at the bottom. Here comes Ruthie. She is our correspondent in New York. In my former career as an actress, I've endured a string of humiliating jobs and auditions appearing in Panto and Rochdale was a real low point. Then there was the time I was in a naked version of A Christmas Carol in Manhattan. I even once auditioned for a voiceover in New York where they wanted me to sneeze in a British accent. There have also been some highlights. I was in North Carolina appearing

in a production of Hedwig and the Angry Inch, where my agent called me to say that a theatre in Utah was working with Sting and would like me to audition for his musical The Last Ship. By some miracle, I was cast as the female lead Meg. Rehearsals were interesting. Every so often, the director's phone would ring and she'd dash off out of earshot to discuss ideas and script changes with the sting himself. He never materialised during rehearsals

or indeed on the first three nights of the show. But on the fourth performance, our director walked into the women's dressing room while I was halfway through, gluing a false eyelash to my face when she quietly confessed, He's here. Sting's here. Cue insane screaming from my castmates and me accidentally gluing my eyelids shut.

At the curtain call, once the applause had subsided, the man himself sauntered onto the stage and shook my hand. I can see him sauntering, I really can. In my ever so cool nonchalant British fashion, I promptly burst into tears, which was mortifying. After the show, Sting had secretly set up a party for us and within an hour of discarding my costume, I found myself sitting with Sting on a sofa discussing the black country. Trudy, his wife, is from Bromsgrove. Not strictly the black country, but I wasn't about to correct him, obviously. He complimented my performance and he was generally fabulous and charming.

It was thrilling, if slightly surreal. For Sting too, I imagine. And I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't writing a podcast right now. Recalling the time he was held hostage on a sofa in Utah by an insane British actress. Oh, Ruthie, thank you for giving us an insight into your showbiz world. She is from Bromsgrove, Trudy Styler,

and you're right, technically it is not in the black country, but I'm glad you made that clear. I like the notion that Sting might be writing to a pop. What podcast would he be writing to, I wonder? The Tantric Sex podcast, I imagine. Oh, God, the poor man, he never managed to live that one down, did he? Well, that was when I went off him, because there's no way I could have kept up my interest,

even with Sting, for as long as six or seven hours. Yeah, but I think the tantric sex thing was misinterpreted, wasn't it? Was it? I think it just means that you start thinking about having sex with somebody right at the beginning of the day, when you've got a date with them later on that evening. And let's face it, we've all met people like that. They just don't call it tantric

sex. They call them men. Yep. No, no, no, no. We can't say no to them. It's worth asking how long would the tantric sex podcast go on for, isn't it? Seven and a half hours. Not all men, Jane. Hashtag not all men. Would you like to introduce our amazing

guest today? We'll do a couple of musing emails afterwards. Yes, I will introduce our guest today because I thought this was, well, I mean, we should say, I think you use the expression showing our pants and we're still quite new to doing this live radio show on Times Radio. And this programme is going to evolve. I mean, we've only been doing it since October. It's already changed a bit. I'm sure it will change again. And we are both really interested.

We're very invested in the idea of talking to people who aren't actually selling or promoting anything, but have just lived through something. And I think that's the case with Teresa our guest today and the first person experience when it isn't someone who's shoved themselves into the limelight I think you and I are really really

fond of hearing well they're the best voices I mean the word authentic is bandied around all the time but if you listen to Teresa this is her way of telling us about her life and her circumstances are not unique they're probably not as uncommon as frankly some people might like to think but you simply don't hear it talked about and Teresa is 64 she is a business support manager

by profession she's had an interesting and very full life. And she was adopted as a toddler, as she'll explain in the interview. But when she was in her 20s, she really had this longing to find out more about her birth family. It's, you know, lots of people would feel that way if they've been adopted. And things were very different then. And you'll hear in her voice, the very raw, the rawness of her experience, the isolation of it. She was left largely on her own and to her own devices to discover that she was born to siblings, a girl of 16 and her 14-year-old brother. So, by the way, this, I should say, if this is something you're not prepared to listen to,

if you're not ready to listen to something like this, if it's triggering in some way, then obviously you don't need to listen to Teresa's experience but I think a lot of people will be really delighted to hear that Teresa has had such a full and very happy life I think that's important to emphasize isn't it so here is in my late teens and very early 20s I wasn't particularly interested in babies I was busy with other things and then my sister had her first child. And shortly after, my brothers had both of their first. And as an auntie, that changed everything. I had feelings for these children that I had never experienced before and made me feel very maternal.

And suddenly realised that actually babies were as wonderful as everybody said. And people were beginning to say, oh, he looks like you or she looks like you. Or I remember when you cut your first tooth. And I realised that nobody would be able to give me any of those answers or any of those milestones for me unless I could find out some more about my first beginnings. I was nearly two and a half when I was adopted. So there was a lot of firsts that have been missed by the time I got to my adoptive parents. So that was what took me off on the on the trek to begin with, was simply just to find out some more and see where you fit into a family in terms of looks and genetics. And did you tell anybody in your adoptive family about what you were doing?

No, I didn't. I knew that my mum, it was one of her great fears that both myself and my sister, who was also adopted from different circumstances, might want to do that at some point. And she was always very worried that she might lose us as a result of that. I'm ironic given the circumstances when I thought perhaps I would lose them the other way around. So talk us through what you then did and you did all of this alone then totally totally alone. Yes and in those days there was no counselling or training or anything like that you know these sorts of things you just picked up yourself and ran with it so I went to my local social services first of all and this is sorry to Teresa we

probably should know exactly when this was the 1980s yes yeah okay yeah carry on yeah um when we were not anywhere near as aware about how people might feel or how things impact people as we are today thank goodness um so my local social services um established that I came under the care of Islington social services in those days and what was the London County Council um and they were able for to set up for me a meeting for me to go in and view my notes at Islington um So I was given a date and a time and an address and that's what I did. I turned up supposing that I was going to read some very interesting things about myself and my family only to find that it was really quite different.

So can you just tell us what exactly it said in the notes? So can you just tell us what exactly it said in the notes? So in the notes at the top, it started off that my mother was only 16, which didn't surprise me. And in those days, a lot of very young mothers were, you know, leaned on to get their children adopted or it was circumstances they couldn't bring them up on their own. But as I read down further, it listed the father, who was listed as her brother, who was only 14 at the time. So you're sitting in a room on your own in a council building, reading through all of this.

I mean, it must be a moment that you have relived many times. I almost don't want to ask you to relive it again for us, but that's exactly what I'm doing. What did you feel? To begin with, I had to go back and read it again because I thought I must have made a mistake. And then I just began to feel really quite sick, to be honest. I had been brought up in a Catholic family, gone to Catholic schools and people didn't even have sex before marriage. They certainly incest was an absolute, a real, you know, it was off the scale in terms of what was acceptable. And so to start with, I just kept reading and rereading. reading shock revulsion and then utter shame and the thought then that I could never ever tell my parents about this in fact I wasn't sure I could tell anybody about this because people would think

differently of me if they knew where I had come from was what I thought so in my head this was just the end of everything as I knew it and sorry go on well I was just going to ask you I mean before handing that folder to you the the the people in the council officers would have read it too they would have known what was in that folder wouldn't they you would you would have thought so and to this day I still don't know what was going through their heads or whether they did read it. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they just pulled it out and left it. They made it very clear to me that I couldn't take anything away. So if I wanted to make any notes, they had given me a notepad and a pen. But I don't know if they had read it. I don't know if they'd read it and not known what to do with it.

had read it I don't know if they'd read it and not known what to do with it or as I say it was such different days um you know that sort of 40 years ago that people didn't think I don't think about the impact of of information like that nowadays you would be getting counselling beforehand somebody would have checked it all out beforehand you would probably have a mediator but in those days it was just I think it was not I don't think it had been that long when people could a that they could access their notes once they were 18 and b that you could be put on the register that was about people looking either for parents or parents looking for children who'd gone through the adoption services. I don't think that had been in place for very long and so perhaps you know I have to err on the side that perhaps ignorance was what did it rather than

just couldn't be bothered. So you put the papers back in the file and handed it back in and summoned your dignity and walked out I suppose. I took my scraps of paper with me yes. Yeah yeah and who did you tell? I didn't I walked around for ages um just feeling more and more sick and more and more shamed by what I'd read until finally I took myself home and I didn't tell anybody for 20 years it was just something I knew that I could not explain to anyone I was I was revolted at me so what would other people think if I thought that of myself I couldn't take the risk and I thought that people would turn their backs on me I thought my parents would be absolutely devastated and they would just say, well, sorry, you know, that isn't what we bought into, so off you go.

Sorry, go on. No, I was just going to say, I mean, apart from the incredible emotional overload and damage of all of that, there is that sudden knowledge as well, isn't there, that actually for you to have children of your own would become a more complicated and possibly dangerous thing to do absolutely that was the thing that changed overnight for me as a result of it because I through my own ignorance and lack of knowledge and because I didn't discuss it with anybody I had the impression that if I had children,

I ran the risk of having children with either very severe mental or physical disabilities. And that would be as a result of my parentage, which I could not inflict on another person, knowing how I was feeling at that point. And so I made the decision that I could never have children. Were you in a relationship at the time? I was, yes. And I subsequently ended that because if I was going to have to explain why I couldn't have children, then I would have to explain the whole thing. And so, and I wasn't prepared to do that at all. I felt nobody should ever know this. And so I broke it off for other reasons.

So, Teresa, you break up with your then partner. And how long after this did your birth mother make it known that she wanted to meet you? Very soon after, actually. I had put my name on the register when I had visited the local social services. And within a few months, they had contacted me again to say that her name had come up and she was interested in meeting me if I was still interested in meeting her. And I obviously didn't say anything about what I already knew, but said, yes, I most certainly did want to meet her. And they came back to me with a date and a time and an certainly did want to meet to meet her and they came back to me with a date and a time and an address in London to go to. And you went? I went and a very odd

start to it all she opened the door and there was no lovely happy ending. She was very cold. I had not realised until I got there just how angry I was about all of it. I'd had to give up having children. I'd had to change everything that I was thinking about my life. I'd given up relationships. And at that point in my head, clearly I blamed her for that. And so I wasn't in the best frame of mind to go into such a meeting and probably should never have done it like that but she let me in and there was a gentleman sitting in the corner who she introduced as a friend of hers but it was very clear to me that that was her brother that was my father everybody in the room we all looked alike and he was more than casually interested he never took his eyes off me the whole time I was there

and it was quite it's very hard to describe if you've always been with your genetic family it's very hard to describe when you first see somebody that actually looks like you and so that part of the meeting was actually quite positive in that I saw somebody that looked like me and I looked like them and all the things I'd heard about my siblings and their children I could see was visible in front of me but I just launched off into a tirade of questions and blaming and really getting quite upset and not really giving her a chance to speak. And it wasn't long before she calmed it all down and said, look, you've obviously not in the best frame of mind. This isn't going anywhere. Why don't you go away? isn't going anywhere why don't you go away write down all the questions you've got and let's meet again and then we can try and answer them for you and do this in a in a much calmer way and did that

ever happen no because I accepted that at face value realizing myself that I wasn't doing it the right way and wasn't getting any of the answers that I wanted and so I accepted the phone number and went off and over the course the next few days thought yes actually that's a really good idea I sat down and wrote out the questions I wanted to get answers for and then a couple of weeks later rang the number to reconvene the meeting only to find that the number was unobtainable gosh try through the operator no the number was disconnected I went back to the place where we'd met there was nobody there nobody either side could tell me anything didn't know the people that had lived there knew nothing about them and so now I've got all these half answered questions, which just made the whole situation even worse for me.

And still, Teresa, you're on your own. Nobody else knows about this. No, no, absolutely not. And now even more so because I've messed up this meeting by being so angry and so upset. And so not only have I got the first secret, now I can't tell anybody why I couldn't even find out anymore. So I didn't, I buried it. I'm sure lots of our listeners this afternoon, Teresa, would want both Jane and I to say, that wasn't your fault.

I mean, you know, you had every right to be angry. There were three people in that room who needed to have a very open conversation you are the youngest and most vulnerable one in that room so uh you know it it's it's heartbreaking actually to think of just how vulnerable you must have been at that time other people who have since known your story can they tell you a bit more about how all of that changed you to them or do they think that you managed to keep it completely and utterly hidden away from them too you know your your adoptive family and your friends I was very good at it nobody knew knew and nobody suspected. And they certainly were as surprised as me when I did finally tell anyone.

But no, as far as they were concerned, I became the best auntie. And I loved my nieces and nephews and had a really good time with them growing up and still have a good relationship. So everybody just thought I was a great auntie. And I just used to fob off questions about, you know, surely you want children, you want to get married. Yes, yes. But I've never met the right one. And, you know, and I was able to just keep skirting around it. And people accepted that. In the end, you did decide to tell one friend who I think had worked as a counsellor. Is that right? Yes, yes. And I'm not even sure why that happened.

I certainly hadn't planned to say anything that day. We were on quite a long car journey together and we were just generally chatting about childhood and that sort of thing. And I think that it all... If you've ever... People who've kept secrets will probably be able to tell you that you put little compartments in your head and you can put everything into little boxes.

And I was very good at keeping all of that separate. And I've had quite a lot of health problems over the years. And I'd managed to box all that off as well. I was not able to take up the career I wanted in sport for the same reason. I wanted in sport for the same as they love you already? Why would you think that what happened to you and in the start of your life had anything to do with the person that you are today? You silly, silly woman, you know, and he was like, just do not even give that a thought. People want you, people love you for you not for anything else and to think that you've been carrying that around and never told anybody is just horrible and so that was the first person I told so that made a big difference um to begin with I wasn't sure that I believed him and I thought perhaps he was just saying it but as time went on I realised

that actually he was probably right. And what did your adoptive family say when you told them? So I told one sibling and then I told my other siblings and they were exactly the same. Why on earth would you think we would think anything differently of you it has absolutely no bearing on you as a person or our relationship with you as a as a sibling and when I told my parents they were really very distressed because they thought that the thought of me carrying that around and not being able to tell them and not being able to talk to them about it when it wouldn't change anything between us um quite distressed them to think that one of their children had lived like this for you know 20 odd years and had not felt able to say anything things just were completely

reassuring and you know just wish that they'd known and that or that they'd even been told you see they'd know nothing about my background either. I was going to ask that, actually. So they did not know your adoptive parents? No. And in those days, I don't think people did disclose very much, even if they knew it. I think you just, you know, not like today, where you know everything about the child and everything about the child's parents and all the genetics and physical, mental challenges that they may have had. All that gets passed on, but not then. Well, we have someone listening who says they're a social worker, Teresa, and they see things like this on a daily basis. And they just want you to know that they think you're amazing for telling your story and being so strong for doing all this on your own.

And I think that won't be a lone voice, that person who who is filled with admiration for you, Teresa, because it was just a very, very lonely experience for you. And although things do people do talk about so much more now, incest, although it clearly happens, is still a taboo. incest although it clearly happens is still a taboo although I think so yes I think you're doing your very best by the way to change that but there's no doubt that people are very very ill at ease about this subject aren't they very much so and I think that it's the one thing I've learned is that of course no matter what happened at your conception as it were that should not have a bearing on you in the rest of your life no but I think because it is such a taboo subject people go away with the ignorance that I went away with you know you're going to have monsters if you have children and you know that sort of thing that was is the way that when people don't talk openly about things

things get misconstrued, things get misrepresented. And if I can stop one person making the lifestyle choice I made wrongly, because if I had known then what I know now, I would have carried on my life and had children and gone on to have a family. Then my work is done, as it were, because that's the reason I talk. work is done as it were because that's the reason I talk and not just about this but I think generally about people carrying shame and not being able to share and talk and and get some reassurance yeah then you know that we're in an age now where we encourage people to talk so the more they do the the more knowledge is shared I think and Teresa we don't have very much time left at all, but what is it that you have subsequently been told about your ability to have had healthy children,

if that's what you chose to do? That it probably wouldn't have made any difference at all if there'd been any genetic hereditary diseases in the ordinary way, then possibly that might have been a problem, but that would be no different if my parents had not had it and not been related themselves but that the chances of me having a child with anything wrong with them would have been very very slim. Teresa Wyler who was speaking

to us today any thoughts on that we'll be delighted to hear from you Jane and Fi at times.radio and do you know what there's the many things that are very impressive about Teresa. I think her ability to tell her story in such a calm and self-aware manner is absolutely remarkable, and also her motivation for doing it. Because as she said, and as she well knows, as soon as you know that fact about Teresa,

that is what you see first with her. So to carry on telling her story and more and more people thinking about her parents as they're talking to her, I think is quite a difficult ask. She could have returned to a far, far less visible life, but in wanting to help other people come to terms with something that is way more common than I think most of us would like to imagine, I just think she's a really remarkable person.

It was good to hear from her. No, she sounded great. She was thoughtful, but she wasn't sorry for herself. Honestly, we could point to some current examples. But when you hear some people in public life wanging on. Help, I've got a hangnail. Yes, that sort of thing. You'll understand why people like Teresa are so impressive.

Freya has written to say, I just want to say thank you for having Teresa on. I'm 22. I was adopted when I was about two. And it's a strange thing to live with. And it's taken me a long time to get my head around it. I do think it's really important that we talk about it more and don't shy away from the topic. I understand what Teresa was talking about

when she first met her birth relatives for the first time. About three years ago, I met my birth sister for the first time. And there are just no real ways to express how strange it is to see somebody who looks so similar to yourself. Freya, thank you. And I hope that that conversation with Teresa was something that you found instructive. So thank you very much for contacting us. Right. We've got an anonymous email to end on.

And we are making a very swift gear change as well. Probably if that was gear one, we're going all the way to gear five in terms of humour. So I hope that's OK with everybody. Hello, Jane and Fi. I worked as an usherette at a very well regarded regional theatre back in the 1980s. I'm already warming to this story, Jane, aren't you? To explain, a few minutes before the interval, we had to run for ice cream trays and quietly stand at the back of the auditorium. So far, so good. I collected my tray, ready to sell to a hungry audience. The play starred a well-known sitcom actor appearing as Napoleon. That's the first laugh. I mean, I wonder who it was.

Anyway. The big dramatic end of the first half was Napoleon's death. A long monologue. No shit, Sherlock. Standing there with ice is melting, the spotlight suddenly fell upon me and my tray of wares as Napoleon slowly walked up the stairs from the stage towards me, both of us in full light. To move would block his exit and death scene.

To not move ruined the moment. I froze even more than the chalk ices in my tray and endured the shame and shared the spotlight as Bonaparte departed this earth slowly and with great melodrama. Painful minutes. As the lights came down and polite applause, I jumped into customer service mode,

taking my tray to the front of the stage to sell. The actor's parting words of get that idiot out of my spot, ringing in my ears. I could never watch his sitcom or eat ice cream again. Oh, dear. I absolutely love that. The guy's giving everything to that really wonderful and emotive time in Napoleon's life

when he's preparing to meet his maker. Oh, and then Asherette just standing there with a shaking tray of choc-ice. I do think it's very funny. There's something about choc-ice and theatre, isn't there? Because they are actually a slightly odd snack to have in the theatre when you think about it. Are they?

Very strange, yeah. Because they're quite hard to eat and they're likely to tumble down your top. A bit always falls off. Yeah, that's what I mean. Yeah, you're right, because then everyone walks out of the theatre with kind of sticky hands.

It's just a very... Brown splodges. There's a part of me that really wants to... Can you just tell us who that actor was? We don't need to... Just for our own personal curiosity. Just for our own purposes, anonymous. And you're anonymous anyway, so what harm can it do?

Absolutely none, Jane. No. I mean, unless NDAs were signed, of course. Oh, dear. Because that was something else we talked. By the way, if you only hear the podcast, you're missing out on a treat because there's other stuff in the Times Radio live show.

And we did have a long conversation today about what non-disclosure agreements are. Yeah. With Mark Stevens, media lawyer to the stars, and he actually knows, doesn't he, Jane? He knows the people who have asked their employees, usually female, to sign NDAs. So when he put a percentage on it, how many people, high profile people, men, in the public eye at the moment, have some kind of an NDA that they've issued to staff or whoever it is, he said.

Terrifyingly, he said he thought about 50%. But we should say it isn't just individuals, it's big institutions. In fact, we had a message during the course of the programme from somebody who says that they know the NHS uses NDAs. I can believe it. And certainly I think it's fair to say that large broadcasting organisations will use them. Are we safe to have this conversation?

Have you signed an NDA? Have you? Neither of us can say. organizations will use them are we safe to have this conversation have you signed an nda have you neither of us can say so um what we do know about tomorrow is that our guest on the live show and indeed on this podcast will be barbara kingsolver who's one of america's greatest living novelists she is and she was talking to us from her desk in the appalachian mountains a rural part of America, much blighted by opioid addiction. I think probably in our romantic UK heads, I'm thinking, you know, Misty Mountains, Dolly World, Dolly World, that too. And I'm not really appreciating the excruciating rural poverty and isolation within many of those communities that she writes about in her latest book.

So we will be thrilled to present that to you. It's also my last day before two weeks of holiday, so I'm afraid there'll be no nouns or adverbs from me. I'll just be giddy and I won't be saying much. Well, that bodes well, actually. That's great. You'll enjoy it. I will enjoy it. And we also should say, of course, tomorrow there's going to be no escape because it is the day that volume two drops oh yeah well no we

don't we don't know yet what's in it so there might be some harry and megan okay and don't forget as well you've still got time tonight to buy my christmas present because rather embarrassingly dear listeners i handed over my Christmas present to Jane today you know what usually happens at Christmas you give a present and someone says oh yes I've got one for you no I have got it, it's just not wrapped yeah I've had that one before

I remember once being completely put on the back foot by a very famous lady broadcaster who was on a programme that I was hosting and not only had she got presents she had wrapped, and made presentation pickles in special jars to give to everybody who took part yeah well i know who that is yeah well i was so talk about never mind the back four i was on the back step i was absolutely i just thought god yeah can i just give you a little bit of a tip though if you try and give me Barbara Kingsolver's book,

there'll be trouble. What's your next disc, anyway? You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this, but live, then you can Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy.

Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon. Goodbye.