Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Avert your eyes, it's Tummy Time (with Abigail Disney)

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

We bet you pressed play on today's podcast praying we would talk about Dallas, didn't you? Well, you're in luck. Jane and Fi chat Dallas, Drake tribute acts, ageing gracefully, drinking before flights, and relaxing in jeans. There is a huge accent warning today. Please proceed with caution. Plus, Abigail Disney, film producer and granddaughter of Roy O. Disney, discusses her documentary ‘The American Dream and Other Fairy Tales’, which looks at income inequality by focusing on the financial struggles of workers at her family’s company. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We've worked out as a method of getting free pastry, which has only just kind of become part of our morning routine here. Because if you go for a coffee at a certain time, you get free pastries because they're giving them away. I know, but they just look... Eve? Eve, really. They look like they're free for a reason. Oh, no.

You're such a cynic. Well, they're always the slightly chard ones, aren't they? And they're those weird The chocolate twists Which is somewhere between A cake If it's going to be a twist It needs to be a cheese twist

I can't cope with a chocolate twist I don't like cheese twists But everybody's different And that is one of the reasons That we love to keep having these conversations And bringing in other people I tell you what people are telling us about people Well there's still quite a lot about Lizzole

Well that's what I was going to go to So should we start there Let's just emphasize, by the way, just to have you missed it yesterday, she's number one in the hardback bestseller charts. So I totally get that not everyone appreciates her message, but some people want to read it. And you can do both things at the same time, can you? You can be interested in somebody else's research about how to age well,

whilst also thinking I don't want to age as much as that person wants to. So maybe if you don't want to age to 130, which is Liz Earle's hopeful end-of-life age, you could just read the first couple of chapters. Live just to be 110. Just something like that. Do you want, I would just, I mean, unless all of your friends are going to be in on this with you.

Well, it's not worth it. It's not worth it. I don't want to try and start making new best friends when I'm 119. and I would just, you know, your world is filled with sadness. I mean, your, you know, your mum must have experienced the same thing in her 90s. You know, whenever I phone my mum, how are you, what have you been up to? It's a list of funerals.

She's 84. And I think we underestimate that. Yeah. And they're saying goodbye to people. They've shared memories with and all that kind of stuff. So there's just a lot of other stuff. going down with this longevity thing. But some of you have been very funny as well,

and very, very helpful in your critique of Lizelle. Do you want to do one? I've got Maddie's lined up just so we don't... I thought I had them in the right order, but you go first, you go first. Okay, so this is from Maddie, who I think is joining us from Seaford in Victoria. Australia, no accent, is available today. Australia. I enjoyed watching Lizell's chat on YouTube last Thursday,

but not for the reasons you might expect. Why oh why, can't we just age well? Living beyond the expected lifetime is not on my bucket list. 62 is not middle age and I certainly can't afford to live another 62 years. My retirement funds are not what they should be. Though for a woman who ran a small business for a decade whilst raising two children, they're not bad either. Well done you, Maddie. How the hell is Liz going to fund her retirement and who will be her kin when she's 130? In the quiet of an evening, I also sometimes wonder what songs will be playing in the retirement homes of my job. generation. Will it be Jen Bita's music of choice blaring out of the

speakers in Liz's Twilight years? Kel O'Rour. It's very true, isn't it? Well, who will be the tribute act? Well, it will be Drake, won't it? Probably the tribute act would be break.

It won't be Kanye West, although you could have done Kanye East. And so it will go on. And it's absolutely true, isn't it? You'd be there, you know, try and to knock out a couple of, well, not the sugar babes. They tried to go on tour, didn't they? Well, I think it's just worth saying that the sugar babes European tour fee is still going on.

Oh, well, that's good. And I like the sugar babes. I was surprised that they couldn't sell out a bit more. Anyway, I shared fees barely concerned ho-hum throughout most of the interview. The biohacking intel washed over me too. But then Liz revealed that she lives by the 80-20 rule and that 20% of the time she enjoys tequila and cake.

Fee suddenly went from slumped interview to warm with the energy of a 21-year-old who gets up at 3 a.m. Highlighted the interview for me right there. But the interview reminded me of something else entirely. Desiderato, is that the right way to say it? I'm afraid I simply don't know. Written by Max Ehrman in 1927.

It's a poem, isn't it? I first read it in high school and later revisited it again and again at my mother-in-laws where she'd stuck it to the back of the toilet door. One line has stayed with me ever since. take kindly the council of the years gracefully surrendering the things of youth

and Maddie says I'm getting that printed on a t-shirt Toot Sweet and she advises us to look through Desiderata through the prism of our social media lens and have a bit of a think about it so that's a little task for the group Just read it again Take kindly the council of the years

gracefully surrendering the things of youth gracefully surrendering. And I feel lighter just reading that. Yes. Because I've not got the energy to stay young. No, no, not revive. Growing old is a privilege, which doesn't mean it's necessarily easy. And also it means it's like with you,

it means you can go home over an evening and whack on your lackey pants and put your feet out and watch a little bit of shadow DIY. There's some terrible problems of windows last night. Yes, I was, no. Oh, no, I wasn't watching that. No, it was the property show that's now on. just before Channel 4 News. It's a different version of the

Will, they, They Won't They, buy somewhere in Spain. Anyway, they did. It was very cheap. It was less than 100,000 euros. What did they get for the, what did they bang for their buck? Well, they know, they got some. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have bought it. Darling, we knew that.

I don't, I don't have a second home, nor am I intending to acquire one. I wouldn't have got. There was another property they saw that had bars on the windows. I mean, I don't want to live anywhere. where I've got bars on the windows. It doesn't exactly shout out good times, does it? No, I always worry about getting out in a fire as well.

Oh, God, this is a barrel of laughter, isn't it? Good luck to the couple who bought it. I'm sure you'll have many, many. A siesta and a fiesta. This isn't one for Lizzole, but it's about fried bread. Andrews says somebody who shares my love of fried bread. I think, was it me that mentioned fried bread, I think, last week. Perhaps it was.

I was mourning the lack of fried bread on the full English breakfast. Oh, okay, because I do love fried bread. And Andrew says, whenever I order brunch or breakfast in a cafe, I routinely ask if they do fried bread. Most don't, some still do, I've never discovered why. Is it for health reasons? Those cafes that do serve fried bread always get a return visit and a gold star. Why do calves insist on serving toast with a full English?

It doesn't make any sense. And it's always included in the items that make up the breakfast. I'll ask for a substitution. Once I got four pieces, brackets, two slices of bread, of fried bread. Even for me, that was too much. I think you can tell the quality of a cafe by the fact that they serve

fried bread and don't get me started on chips with or at breakfast. Andrew, no. No, not chipped potatoes at breakfast. And actually, there's a story in the paper today, Times actually, just coincidentally, about Ryanair's boss saying he doesn't want any more

boozing at the airport before you get on a flight. And can I just say I don't know anything about this particular Well it's Michael O'Leary isn't it He has his fans He has his knockers But I don't think you should get boozed up Before you get on a plane

I've never understood why it's tolerated actually I think it's dangerous Yeah I completely agree Completely and utterly agree I understand why he's saying it It's because so many of his planes Now have to be diverted Because they've got drunk passengers on board

and some really hellish things have been happening. But also maybe don't participate in any of that yourself as the airport boss because I've been on his jet planes when people are drinking a lot in the air. I'm not sure you can just blame it on what's happened at the airport. Oh, you mean they serve it, of course they do, yeah. You know, that you have nothing to do with it either, you know, when they're on board. And if there wasn't such a rush to board the aircraft,

there would be more time for people to be weeded out because it's illegal to be intoxicated and board the flight, you know, that you can use the power of the land in order to say you're too drunk to get on board. So I think he just needs to mark his own homework a little bit as well. And I was listening to, and funnily enough, Times Radio this morning, where Harry Wallop, consumer expert to the stars. Can I just say he has magnificent spectacles?

He does, isn't he? He's very entertaining, very, very entertaining consumer expert too. He had done a piece once upon a time, 24 hours in the Stansted Weather Spoons, I think. And it was just quite an interesting lesson. I didn't realize how much of the cheapness of airline flights is dependent on the money made at an airport. So, you know, the airport wants you to be in the airport for a long time, have the best time. Probably drink. Yeah. Go through duty-free, buy all of your things that you don't need. They want you to be having that experience. They don't want you to be monastic whilst you're there.

And that has a knock-on effect on the airport and what they're paying and the kind of close proximity that some big companies, big airlines have to a particular airport. So they're all in it together, jail. There is an element of that. Yeah. What would your chosen drink be on board a flight were you to take a tipple? Oh. Oh, champagne.

definitely. You're turning left. And it's good to know. I will say that when I just have glorious memories of I went to the Athens Olympic Games. I'm sure I've mentioned it before. I tell you. As Jane mentioned it before. 2004. And the great joy of that was that I had at the time a four-year-old and an 18-month-old.

And I was going, sans-en-fons for a 10-day trip to cover. It has to be said. It wasn't a Ghana Olympic. for Britain. We didn't win anything, I think, apart from Steve Redcray. Who cares because you won gold on the trip. I bought gold. And the BBC had done some deal where we were in business class, if you were a

reporter with the BBC. And yeah, I was, the studio and S came over and said, do you want some champagne? Fia, I couldn't believe it. I knew I was on a banker, 10-day trip where I might get some sleep. I just couldn't believe it. Oh, that was a fantastic holiday.

Work trip. If you're at the front of the plane, you just have fewer people trying to use the toilets. Because one of the reasons why I just won't drink before getting on a plane is if there are 271 people queuing before me, you know, before we touch down in the luxurious resort that we're all destined for.

Yeah. Small talk in the queue for the loo on a plane is almost impossible, isn't it? Oh, I never do. Well, you can't really, your only option is just to stand there with your arms folded, not looking desperate, but just keen. Yeah, it's all so uncomfortable. because the poor people sitting in those back seats, they just have, it's just crotch for you, isn't it?

It's supposed to be terrible. Last hour before landing. Have you seen this fantastic thing from New Zealand, from Sarah, after hearing Fee talk about all the election flyers that she's been getting at home? I thought you could be amused by this gem, which I found in the mailbox this morning. Not a hint of electioneering, but if you ever desired a flyer advertising a business

with a somewhat unusual name and an AI, cloven-hoofed cartoon horse wrapped in a hose and wearing a baseball cap, here it is. I'm sure delights such as this are not restricted to Cambridge, New Zealand. Sarah, thank you. The company is called, I think you're going to have to do your antipodean accent, multi-purpose antipedean accent for this one. Really?

Yeah, go on. Okay. Just to distance ourselves from it a bit. Yeah, slightly. Okay. Suck and blast. I haven't done it very well now. You try.

I'll have a go. Suck and blast. Exterior cleaning plus bringing your property back to life. So if you'd like that in the Dalsit tones of the home counties, it's actually called suck and blast. Well, no, it's actually called suck and blast. Suck up the mess, blast away the stress. It's a bit weird, Jane.

You can call Kyle, though, on the following number, if you want to have your property absolutely transformed by this AI pony, wearing a baseball cap and armed with a very powerful-looking water cannon. I don't think anything could go wrong there. I did have my paving once blasted with jet wash. It's very, very satisfying, the jet wash. Very satisfying.

Unbelievably unpleasant for your neighbours. Yes, because you just know when it's... What do they care? When it starts up, especially if they don't have a very powerful one. It'll be six hours per paving stone. Satisfying for them. Not so much for you. I'm not sure we should look this up.

I'm not sure you get away with in this country driving... van around with the title Suck and Blast I think I just think trouble might follow you there might be some writing

you know in the dirt on the back of the van That's a very In its own way That's a fine art that isn't it? It's a very British thing Yeah it is And sometimes it

I wish my wife was this dirty Exactly What's happened to us I'm going to try and do on the subject of joggers and this is a little bit of a ticky off. Oh, coming away. You say very nice things at the start. All the Best VC.

Your podcast is a much-needed respite in a Trumpian world. We're here for you. And it's something which brings my dear friend Jenny and I together. Jen is based in Hong Kong. And I'm based in the UK, in Hempel, Hampstead and Hertfordshire, near Tring. Right. If I'm honest, it's not a destination location, says VC. So while seeing each other face to face is rare, we often exchange messages on the content of the pod. And I like to know that we're listening to the same thing, albeit many thousands of miles apart.

Well, that's a lovely thing. That is nice. It really, it warms the cockles of our hearts, doesn't it, to know people having chats about this? Anyway, on the subject of joggers and trackies, this might be controversial. But I have to say, I'm of the opinion. They should be banned in all circumstances other than... than when at the side of the track and being used to keep warm between athletic events.

What's wrong with relaxing in a nice pair of jeans? A much better look. I also can't agree with going outside in dressing gowns or anything that resembles gym jams. But Jenny has a different opinion. So Jane, you have her on side. Good. I've never managed to convince her nor many others

that mornings have better enjoyed getting up, getting dressed and out and about for a run, which is when I often catch the podcast. I can't listen to it when lifting weights in the gym, though. I did once, but laughing whilst bench pressing is not recommended. Well, let's have a heated debate about this then. I think you can. I'm with you. I'm definitely, definitely on your side, VC. I would relax in a nice pair of jeans. I feel if I go to the ultimate comfort of the

elasticated waist and the joggers. You've given up. Yes, that I might actually get ill, because that's the only time I'm waiting. Sometimes I think your Scottish Presbyterian side comes out. I think it does too. Yes. What would the view be in Montrose of that? Oh my word. I mean, seriously, if I had done that whilst I was living with my mother, I mean, she just, she would have thought that something was very badly wrong. Right, I see.

Okay, I have to, maybe I have just given up or given in. I don't know what it is, but when I get through that door, after the slice of cheese, upon returning, I do just go upstairs and just get everything. I think there's something about tight, tight round the waist. I don't want Tommy to be, you know, in any way maladjusted. I like to be in very, very non-clingy garments. And don't tell me you don't go to the bins in a dressing gown. You must do.

Yes, I kind of do. And sometimes actually, so sometimes I'll put my swimming costume on first thing in the morning because then I'm going to go for a swim later. And sometimes I have taken the bins out in my swimming costume. And in the days where we used to go to newspaper delivered, but due to cost efficiencies, that no longer happens. Just, by the way, if you do want to set up, the old tiny violin thing.

We don't get papers delivered anymore, do we? We don't, no. And sometimes I did run out to get the paper because it would be just chucked at the bottom. Just in a swimming costume. Yeah. Yeah. Because I thought slightly surprised me.

No, I thought slightly logically that, you know, I would just be appearing in the same outfit in a swimming costume, 500 yards down the road at the outdoor pool. So people would have seen a woman in a swimming costume before. I only do this since getting the key co-coctuary. lockbox which has a permanent key in it

because you don't, yeah, you don't want to get stuck outside your own house in a sewing costume at 6.30 in the morning. Because that really would. That would be something the kiddies would never stop talking about. But I like the idea of you having tummy time when you get it. In both senses.

Feed it with a little bit of cheese and let it out. Then set it free. Jane Garvey's tummy tummy. I tell you what, this is the book that everyone leaves. Oh, yeah, never mind Liz Earle. Oh, God. I mean, there's a whole business of going, you're absolutely right,

you make a completely logical point about the swimming costume because, of course, you expose yourself to strangers wearing only that down at the Lido. And it's like the hotel pool. You don't know these people, and suddenly you're sitting next to them, basically you're in your bra and pants. It's just, it's no stupid.

You just don't question it, do we? It is odd. Now, this email this morning, gosh, it made me feel really, I said to you, didn't I, Eve? I said, oh, we'd get some lovely sensitive emails. Eve wasn't really listening. I don't know why this touched me. But it made me think of you and Nancy and everything else. Anyway, it's from Jess, who says,

thank you for the company during these unnerving times. You too really remind me of hearing my auntie's chat away about something either serious and clever or stupid and funny. and it took my imagination off to a place of nostalgia and warmth. Somehow, I've only just found your new podcast. How long have we been here now? We're about to enter year five, aren't we? Keep up.

For heaven's sake, Jess. I'm listening to you whilst I potter around the house on a Sunday night. My partner at Laura is working yet another bank holiday weekend. She works for the counter-terrorism unit in central London, and her work is increasingly relentless. Well, look, she's doing an extremely important job, but yes, I appreciate from your perspective. Not always good.

Now, apart from writing to say thanks for the laughs, I wanted to share that my dog, Navy, who is a gorgeous nine-year-old blue stafie, also has arthritis in all four legs, and struggles to muster even half a kilometre walk these days. We've recently put ramps into the front door and out of the back door as well. She has steps to get in and out of my car

but does prefer to be hoisted in by me. She even has a buggy which has helped us enjoy a longer stroll at the seaside or around the park. I do find this partially cringeworthy, and I know I embarrassed my trendier younger sister when we walked around Victoria Park last weekend, but it's given us a sense of freedom

and it means that our deeply loyal dependent can be with us wherever we go. I mean, that is touching, isn't it? I haven't just lost my marvels completely. No, you haven't. I think that's really sweet. Victoria Park is an impossibly fashionable part of North East London, isn't it? Or is it North London?

East. East. Yeah. Okay. My partner and I are in our 40s and after four rounds of failed IVF, we settled on a dog, hence my quiet pottering on a Sunday evening, which I'm sure sounds glorious to many busy parents, but I trade my boredom for their chaos in a heartbeat. Navy, though, is our little cherub, and I would carry her everywhere if I could, and whilst we still have her, I will.

My advice for Ufi and for Nancy is to be guided by her If she wants to try the stairs some day's letter If she seems willing but unable, help her When I come downstairs in the morning to get Navy for a cuddle on the bed She wags her tail with excitement and intent But her legs have a different idea So she then gets a carry from me Despite the fact that she is a 17 kilogram lump

Gosh, I mean that's It's such a lovely email Jess And we've almost forgiven you not knowing where we were for nearly five years. Very much welcome back. You've got quite a few podcasts to catch up with. So you don't need to worry about your partner working long hours. You've got work to do, girl.

But I just think it's just, I don't know, the commitment to Navy is considerable, and I just really respect it, because animals are so important, really, to lots and lots of us, really, is the truth. Totally, totally, totally. I've had so much conflicting advice about the ramps. Have you?

put the ramp up in our house. So Nancy just won't go near it. It doesn't matter how much helping ham has been made available at the top. She just won't do it. And I don't really know why. And I will investigate it a little bit further at the vets. But a lot of people have said

that one of the problems with ramping your entire house is that then your dog will completely lose their confidence going up steps at all. Oh, I see. So when they're out and about, you know they will just bulk at steps and Nancy is too big for me to lift her up so Nancy's 30 kilograms

and I just can't lift her on my own so my fear is that if I did get her too used to the ramp then you know we'd get somewhere and we'd be fine going down and then I wouldn't be able to get her back up but I can't honestly think of what that situation would be because we're quite boring in where we go we go to Victoria Park we go around London fields

and we go up to the marshes and that's that's about it I am though going to sell the Monte Carlo and get a car with a lower boot access. I can't believe the Monte Carlo's girl. I know, which close members of my family have just thought is absolutely ridiculous. You know, buy new car. So your very elderly dog can get in it.

But it's absolutely, you know, it's like Jess loving Navy. It's kind of like, well, I just don't want to not do the right thing by her because I love her. So it is a bit tough. And also the Monte Carlo. I mean, it's had its best years. How many miles on the clock now, for? Oh, only about 23,000. Oh, yes.

I've had it since 2021. Yeah. I cling it in with the house. Oh, don't. Yeah. Right. It's not gone well either. Okay, let's move swiftly on to...

It's a bad idea, actually. Free house in Hackney, with a Monte Carlo. Yeah. I'll try it that way around. Why don't you imply that the house is in Monte Carlo? Oh, I think. Okay, I could do that. What was that great line about Monte Carlo?

It's where shady people go for sunny times. Something like that. A sunny place for shady people. Which has nothing at all to do with your vehicle of choice. I always wonder whether there is a sense of community amongst those very, very wealthy people. I mean, they're living such a gated, secure life, aren't they? Well, isn't it interesting that you mention it

because our guest on the podcast today... How fantastic. is Abigail Disney, who is... I mean, it's really interesting, and Eve was saying this earlier, just to get a glimpse into the world of people who've just got more money, I was going to say,

than they know what to do with. But she does know what to do with her money. She is a member of the Disney family. She's the granddaughter and great-niece of... I think she's the granddaughter of Roy Disney and the great-niece of Walt Disney. So the woman's just got loads of money, and she has given masses of it away.

She's very ill at ease with her wealth on one level but at the same time she's aware of the power she has and the good she can do with the money at her disposal. But she's made this very interesting documentary called The American Dream and Other Fairy Tales which takes us behind the scenes of the Disney parks to what life is like for those people who work there. And guess what?

Not great. It's not great. The money is terrible. Well, what a fantastic thing to do and an unexpected thing to do. I interviewed her yesterday and she's obviously highly intelligent, very capable woman

and I don't see how, I'm sure people will criticise her because she's one of those rare things she's a wealthy woman who actively wants to pay more tax and is more than willing to do so. I don't know how you could criticise that. Oh people will, people will.

I mean, just say you should give it all away. She appears before a congressional hearing in the States and some Republican representatives just absolutely tear into her accusing her of being a socialist This is socialism. And anyway, she gives us as good as she gets, but it's very, it's a really, I thought she was a really interesting person, so more power to her.

And if you did get the chance to see that documentary, it's called The American Dream and other fairy tales. I'm sure it's lurking out there somewhere. Where can people see it? Do you know, Eve, sorry. She's going to find out. This is a very good email about competitive mothers-in-law. It's a terrifying email.

I loved the story on competitive mothers-in-law last week, but I've got to say, hiding the final piece of a jigsaw. has nothing on my mother-in-law, who at 91 could win gold medals for competitiveness. When I first went to meet her 23 years ago, I asked my partner what I needed to know about her. Well, he replied, she likes axe-throwing. I think at that point I might have really considered my commitment to the man involved in this case. I think I might have thought, I don't know. I was a bit taken aback that axe-throwing was necessary in suburban Melbourne,

but forget backyard cricket, axe-throwing was her favourite Christmas game to play with the kids. You had to throw an axe at a tree And if it stuck, you took a step back and had another go. She always won, probably due to the fact that she was a competitive thrower And when I met her, the world champion hammer thrower for her age. Yes, that's the athletics event where you spin around very fast And let a heavy ball on a chain fly. She carried on throwing hammers as well as various other implements,

including the shot, discus and javelin, and training hard well into her 80s. She would have gone on even longer, except for an accident in a shopping centre which saw her injure her shoulder. She was motivated to keep her number one ranking throughout her career and continued throwing three times a week

and then working out in the gym, doing step-ups carrying 16 kilograms, side bends with 10 kGs on each side and doing endless sit-ups while throwing a medicine ball at any hapless bloke from her retirement village she could recruit to help her out. My God, they must have been terrified of her.

I should say this highly impressive individual is still with us. She's 91. When we call her, she's always rushing off for a snooker match or a bowls tournament. She still plays golf with my partner, although she does need a cart to get around the course now. I'll give her a break. 91. Our emailer is Beverly. Thank you very much. I don't think we're going to beat that. Not in terms of, I mean, look at her. There, she's absolutely magnificent. Well, it is a terrifying picture. That is a woman concentrating on, I mean, That's the funny one where you swing it round and round and then release it. It does look extremely dangerous.

So I wonder... The dynamics of the sheltered housing or care home and the very competitive, very ambitious people who are there and their dotage, I think, is a very interesting one, isn't it? It is, yeah. Because you wouldn't lose your sense of competitiveness, would you? No. But definitely the stage you're on is getting smaller and smaller.

I wonder how people deal with it, really. There are regular quizzes where my dad lives at the Sheltered Housing, and it is taken extremely seriously. My mum and dad used to form a team with another lady, and I think they would come second occasionally, third-ish sometimes, never won, because there are a team of retired medics there who just, they just wipe the board, they sweep the board, wipe the floor, or whatever you like. Yeah. Nobody can take them on.

D-bobbling info for Eve. This will be a final one from me. I love a debobbler. My nits literally look new again when I'm done. Obviously, it's nits with a connect. Yes, I did worry a bit there. I have experience with both types, and I'd say an electric one works much better than a battery operated. It should take the end result from a six out of ten to a nine point five out of ten. Very, very specific here. And we love it. This is Chris coming in from Victoria, Australia. I also loved the chat with Susie about fragrance. Everything she said was true for me also. I wear Coco Chanel every day

and it reminds me of happy times with a young family. I was very spoiled last week when my now adult daughter gave me a dipteak fragrance that takes me straight back to the most wonderful family holidays in Thailand. Now I put it on and feel like I'm on holidays all the time. I can also confirm that diptee room spray is heavenly, perfume d'orson, room spray. buys are my favourites.

I just entered a different world there. I don't really know what I said. I like you saying those words. I don't know what they are, Jane. Do them again. Perfume d'osson, room spray buyers. How are we spelling buyers? P-E-R-S.

No, I'm joking. I was going to say. I believe that just for a second. It used to be quite a running joke when we were driving up to Scotland because you get to some of the places north of the border that just really don't sound anything.

No. Like they're written. Cacubri is the one that you'll probably hit first on the East Coast. And it was... Is that Cucudbright? Yeah, it was a standard family, too. What's that? Perth.

Anyway, that's funny at the time. I have to say that. It reminds me we had a very sarcastic geography teacher at school who she didn't take prisoners at all. And we were very nervous... You know, when you were only in the first year at secondary school when she was our geography teacher. I remember one particular occasion,

we were talking about Liverpool. Docs or something, that was the topic and we had to write about it and one girl even more nervous than me put a hand up and said, Mrs. Dogs, what shall we call this? And she said, why don't you call it rubber planting in Malaysia?

And the poor girl, she did write that. She wrote that, she wrote that, yeah. And I still think about that occasionally. Yeah. Anyway, she's Secretary General of the UN now, so she's had the last laugh. Chris Cozon, I was part of the poison movement back in the early 20s, my then-boyfriend, now ex-husband, gave it to me, and I felt pretty special at the time. It was so overpowering, but I bet if I smelt it now, all of the

memories would come flooding back. I think smells are incredible. Now, Chris has listened since the very beginning. Well done, you. Unlike some of our other correspondence today, was it 10 years ago? Well, it's almost 10 years, isn't it? I think we're 10 years next year. My daughter laughs when I mention something from your chats as though I had the conversation with you too well you kind of do Chris you do so thank you for that is poison still available I haven't smelt poison

for years I wonder whether it isn't available would you mind just having a quick lookie and he still might I wonder whether there might have been some health and safety where they said oh no I don't think we can sell this because it's called it's called this it's called poison yeah do you think that might have happened I don't know did we live in more innocent times

I don't think we did but it was a I mean, I'd take your point, Chris, that it would bring back some memories for you. Oh, there you go. You can buy it. I wonder whether it's still as strong as it was. There was something just so potent about it, wasn't that? What were you talking earlier about Victoria Principal? Suddenly she'd popped back into my head.

Why were you talking about her? Because she was in Dallas for our younger listeners. Because I know someone whose husband left her for Victoria Principal's body double. Okay. Now that is a fashion. No, not a fashion. It's a niche no. It's a showbiz story. And which member of the Dallas cast did I go into the Lou After in Los Angeles? Oh my goodness. Do I get a prize? Yes.

Okay. Can I have a dark coat later? Which could, oh gosh. Now, this is extraordinary. This is an anecdote I've not heard before, Jane. I think you have. Well, would it be Charlene Tilton? No, it was the lady who played Linda Gray, who played Sue Ellen. Oh. Yeah, she came out of the loo. I was in some quite trendy restaurant in LA.

God knows what I was doing there. And, yeah, I went into the loo after, and she held the door open and said, There we're going to go. Well, she was a very good actress. Very good actress. It wasn't a nice part to play, actually, was it? She was a really bullied woman. Put-upon woman.

Dealing with a very bad drink problem. Yeah, she was. Although she didn't have a drink problem. No, but ironically, Larry Hagman, the guy playing her nasty husband did. Yeah, yeah. Honestly, sometimes life takes you by the scruff of the neck and gives you a right good wriggle around, doesn't it?

Yeah. Anyway, tummy times again. There we are, just a couple of Dallas stories for you there. People think, I hope they talk about Dallas today, that TV show that hasn't been on television for about 480 years. This is just a sweet one and a touching one from Kathleen. I've been thinking about the problem of photos, and I've been contemplating writing into us for advice. And then, fantastically, the subject appeared on the pod anyway.

Yes, we have been talking a lot about old photos. Here's my situation, says Kathleen. I have a box of photographs of my husband and of me and of our life together. He died to my ongoing sorrow, and I don't know what to do with them. Nobody will want these photos after I die. Sure, I'm not dead yet. I'm thinking ahead. I can't bring myself to throw them away for exactly the reasons that have been expressed by you.

and by a listener. I don't want strangers to find them and feel sad about us. Wonder if we flossed, drank our coffee black and laughed a lot. I can't rip them up before throwing them away because that seems weird and creepy. Actually, I think it would make me feel sick to rip up photos of us. I really do wonder what other people have done and I would love ideas. Pathleen, thank you. I think that's a problem so many. I'm sorry to hear about your husband as well. You don't say how long ago he died, so we don't know whether this is a new situation

for you or whether it's something you've lived with for some time. But I completely hear you and I just don't know what the answer is to this. I've just printed out some photos. You know that app you can get where they just send them to you. I'm sure there's probably a massive... Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? Because you get a lot for free. Yeah, what's going on here?

But anyway, photos of my mum and photos of my mum with my dad and photos of me with my mum and my mum with my children. Because if you don't... I don't want them on my phone. I've just bought some cheap frames from IKEA over the weekend. and have put some up. And honestly, I find it incredibly helpful to do that. So I, but the idea of just, I've got masses of photos.

My wedding photos, for example, what do you do with those, particularly when you're divorced? I've formed a special archive for mine. Do you like to join? That's another good area to explore, really. What do you do with these quite elaborate wedding albums when the marriage went belly up donkeys years ago? Well, I think, particularly because there's loads of. to people in these photos that you know like. You've got to keep them.

You've got to keep them. I mean, I think that's just how I feel about it. And actually around our house, we still have so many pictures of a completely different kind of family formation. But that's what it was. I mean, we were that then. So, you know, I don't mind that.

Even though, you know, I don't, I'm not going to stand and linger in front of some of them. But I completely didn't want it. I completely understand the feeling. It's the feeling that you were talking about before of actually throwing them out. It just seems so brutal. So painful.

And it goes against the grain of what you're feeling about the content. So I don't know whether it actually makes sense to put those ones back in the digital world, store them somewhere where you could always print them out again if you wanted them. I mean, the huge problem is well with keeping photographs too long because we tend to have printed them out on quite cheap printed photography paper,

they actually don't last as long as the very, very old-fashioned ones did. So they'll start to stick together, they will definitely start to lose their pixelation. They won't stay as they are forever. So maybe you do photograph them all and store them somewhere in your digital archive. But I think if images mean something to you, and even if you only look at them once every year

or once every couple of months, whatever it might be, don't part with them. Because it's your story and your life and your husband and the time you had together. Absolutely, and also, you know, future generations will find them fascinating. We find, you know, an awful lot of our stuff boring, but the absolute joy of the detail of boring humdrum lives

are what we're fascinated about in history. So do you think all those pictures that my children take of their food will be part of a history lesson 150 years from now? No. I do wish they'd stop doing that. I'm with you on that. Why do they do it?

Here's the, yes, okay, yes, that looks nice. Boring. Anyway, tummy time. Dummy time is over. It is actually, it is tummy time because I'm starving, I need my lunch. Let's bring in our guest today. She's the Disney princess

who really is worth admiring, Abigail Disney. Now, we don't often hear from very, very wealthy people, and we rarely get the view of a rich person who's given away millions already and actively wants to pay more tax. Well, the philanthropist, Abigail Disney, is that person. She's the granddaughter of Roy Disney and the grandniece of Walt. She's not popular with all her relatives these days, in part because she's made a documentary, looking at what it's like to be a part of the Disney workforce.

The American Dream and other fairy tales is a glimpse of life for the working poor in Trump's America. I asked Abigail, when she first realized, she was really rich. It's a slow dawning. It isn't a big reveal, you know, because like certain times when I would go to the park and I'd be standing up on the dais, you know, and looking down at the regular children, I'd think, hmm.

In Disney. It doesn't seem normal. Yeah, exactly. In Disney World, Disneyland. Disney land, mostly, because I was growing up in the 60s and we lived in L.A. We spent a fair amount of time down there. And we would go for openings of new parades or rides or things like that.

So those were the moments when you, knew something was weird about you. Well, you've said that all your money comes from inherited wealth and your shares in Disney. Yes. And you are still a Disney shareholder. Yes, yes, I am. What sort of percentage of the shares do you currently? Of the company?

I mean, it's almost comical to imagine my percentage. It's a widely held stock. It's enormous. And even at its most concentrated, you know, it's right. now, nobody owns more than, say, 1%. So when we were, you know, big in the company and it was just my uncle and my grandfather, they owned almost all the shares. But it dilutes over time. Yeah. But nevertheless, it's a tremendous, it has a huge monetary value,

although percentage terms, yeah, not as much as it might have been back in the day. And your grandfather was Roy Disney, brother of Walt. Yes. Yeah. And what were they like? Well, I remember my grandfather in particular well. He was eight years older than Walt, and so he was kind of a protective older brother and saw himself as taking care of his younger brother to make sure he'd succeed. My grandfather was kind of the left brain of the pair, so he took care of the taxes and the banks and the little copyright law and things like that. And I remember him better because Walt died when I was six and grandpa didn't die until I was 12.

and Grandpa was he was a love he was a gentle, lovely man who just only wanted to be a kind person in the world I mean he was also a right-wing you know hardcore anti-communist crusader that wasn't a side you would ever pick up on

as a grandchild. No, you wouldn't well I mean realistically none of us know much about our grandfather's politics if we're honest probably just as well in many cases but this was a time of what were the 50s, the 60s McCarthyism. Yeah, I was growing up in the 1960s. So I do remember hearing some grumbling around the house. Like one day, the yippies were going to have a protest at the park. And I can remember some anger around the house about like how they would deal with it. It was ironic that Walt always had a mustache. And they were thinking that the way of keeping out the yippies would be keeping out people with mustaches. So it was a lot of, yepies meaning? Oh, yippies were sort of like the hardest left, hardcore. protesters in the 1960s. They called themselves the abuse. Right. So you were a very privileged child, although none of us can choose our family. It's not your fault. And you had a happy childhood

from the sound of things. I mean, what could be nicer than presumably free entry, unfettered access to Disneyland? Yeah, and you know, we went backstage a lot. They call it backstage because they use the metaphors in an almost nauseatingly consistent way. And, and, and, and, and, you know, And we got back doors on the ride, so getting on the front of the line and things like that. That was great. We didn't get really rich until I was in my 30s. What do you mean by really rich? Crazy.

I mean, to me, it tracks the airplanes. So when I was in my teens, we had an airplane with a propeller, which is like having a kind of crappy old car. And then we got a kind of slow jet, you know. It wasn't quite as fast as the other jets, and it had to stop more often. and then ultimately my father bought us 737. So that became, to me that was crazy and ridiculous to have an airplane with queen-sized bed in it. And that was when life began to feel not right.

But when did you as an individual start to challenge all this? I didn't until I went to college, really, because college university is the first time you have a look at everybody. because if you go to a school with your class peers, you tend not to really notice the difference. But when you go, you get mixed in with the general population, you start hearing and seeing things, and give you some sense of yourself.

And that started a very long process for me of decoding what I've been living in. So slowly over time, you make a lot of mistakes, and you start to understand the reality of the world you live in. And do you still speak to, relatives. I mean, certainly your sister features in the documentary. So you're obviously very close with her and there's a really good family dynamic between the two of you, a sibling relationship that obviously has more than stood the test of time. But does everybody, I mean, I imagine some

people are not on side with the work you've done. No, no. And it makes them unhappy and I have an older brother who's pretty unhappy about it. And, you know, I haven't been good for the brand, as they say. but I didn't feel I had a choice and I had a younger brother who's really really with me too so that's okay that's fine with me but you know the cousins and the older brother make it a little difficult

you still use the name presumably that is part of your brand and your criticism is much more powerful because you're called Disney I'm so aware of that fact and you know I've had this last name and I've realized that I mean we've been calling it hoaring it out. I could hoar it out

if I wanted to. Right. That's your name. Yeah, good restaurant tables and preferential treatment at this and that and people do bend over backwards when you kind of ask them to. But I realized there was a better use of it. And so my kind of policy about the name is

I use it when it's useful to advance a message or an agenda. I watch you in, you're in a kind of congressional hearing. Yes. And one of the Republican representatives. I mean, he just calls you a social.

It's socialism. And you can hear almost the fear in his voice at the mere mention of the term. But are you a socialist? I don't think there's anything wrong with being a socialist, first of all. I'm not making an accusation.

It's a general question. But it is an accusation in the US. That's the problem. They've turned it into an accusation. And so they use it in language like that specifically to generate a sense of fear. about socialism because they don't want you to sort of question some basic things that like taxes aren't necessarily evil and and that poor people should not suffer and starve.

But the American dream is based on the idea that if you work hard enough then good times will come your way and what your documentary lays bare is the truth and deep down we all know it's the truth that it doesn't happen and it can't happen for everyone. Exactly right And that's You know You kind of want to go back And question some of those

Just the metaphors That we all grew up with You know a monopoly game The origin of the monopoly game Is that It had two sets of rules And you played one way the first time And then second way the other time

And the second way was a socialist game Where everybody participated together And so it was meant to be an illustration Of just how bad the Monopoly game works out for most people because it's difficult to stay ahead of the game. And it's the people that have really stuck with me from your documentary, that the people who work for Disney

and they work hard, and long hours, and they often have to choose between food and medication. And obviously the question of medication in Britain, it's slightly easier because we have, for all its faults. A lot easier. We have the NHS and we're profoundly grateful for it, most of us. Yeah, don't ever, ever, ever underestimate the enormity of the lack of health care in the U.S.

in terms of the suffering that is happening in our country. Tell me more about that, the people choosing between food and medication. Well, at the beginning of the coronavirus, I was really worried about the people in my film because some of them have friends and friendships with people who were cynical about it happening at all. So there was lots of terrible information going around, particularly among conservatives.

and a couple of them are pretty heavy set, and I felt if they were casual and expose themselves to the virus, they might really have a problem. And I knew there was no, I was just in the emergency room with my friend the other day. Those people have nowhere to go for primary medicine, and they could only show up at the emergency room when something is very serious is presenting itself. And I looked around me and I could see all of these preventable problems around me.

that people had no capacity to treat before they were an emergency. Now, I've seen the documentary, but I really want listeners and viewers to understand the people that you feature. Can you just tell me about that there's that one young woman who you really feel for, she's in her 30s, and she doesn't feel that she can really make plans for her future because she can't afford to. Yeah, that's exactly right. And most of them are dealing with the same set of circumstances.

Is it Artemis? Artemis, yeah. Yeah, and her mother died when she was pretty young, so she was independent in the world, very young. And she has dreams of being a writer, being an actress, going back to college and so forth, and she can't stay ahead of her rent. So she is making money as a single woman.

She doesn't have the expense of a child or anything. She doesn't have any health conditions, thankfully. Even so, the rent is so high that she either has to live very far away and find a way to commute back and forth, which means paying for gas or whatever, or within driving or walking distance of the park, which is some of the most expensive real estate in the country.

So just simply staying housed is a precarious matter for her. What is her job at the Disney park? She was on the janitorial staff. Right. And, you know, because janitors and housemaids and people like that are just invisible for the most part to people who aren't looking, most companies feel they can get away with paying people these really

they were working for $11.25 a hour when I first met them and the family of four on two salaries couldn't afford enough food to put on the table. They're going to a food bank. Yeah. In fact, there's a Disney workers food bank. Yes, they were the people who pulled together a food bank just for Disney workers.

And I hope I labeled that well enough in the film so that you can see that these people are putting together food bank. That's just for Disney workers. That's how common it is that they can't pull the money together. But good people making decent money. In fact, there's a quote in the film. Yeah, is it possible? I think it comes from one of your contributors.

Is it possible to make decent money in a decent way? Yes. It is because capitalism doesn't have to function this way. The way most American companies operate is according to a specific interpretation of capitalism. It's not capitalism the way it has to be. And there are plenty of companies, Patagonia, Costco. There are many companies and B-Corps and others that consider the well-being of workers, their workers, to be a given that you wouldn't offer people less money than they needed to live on.

Well, the CEO, Bob Iger, at one point, was earning $65 million a year. Now, he has relatively recently been replaced, and the new man is on, well, he's had a very tough time, is 45 million. Yes, exactly. But lots of workers are on the $15 now. Is that the minimum? Yes. Well, now those workers at Disneyland are at $26 an hour, in part because of the film and in part because of unions. Okay.

Because unions are another piece of the puzzle that fell apart in the time between the 1970s and today. And the conservatives in our country really attacked unions and took away all their power. So they have been rebuilding themselves in order to fight for better conditions and better pay. But, yeah, $15 an hour is not a living wage. And the idea of a living wage is an important one in the U.S. There are people who've done studies in this county or in that county. How much would you need to earn an hour, eight hours a day, to be able to simply support two children? And they don't count special things like vacations or days off or anything like that.

Just housing, health care, food, nothing else. And $15 is not a living wage in any county in the United States at this point. Right. So how are we to reassess our trips to Disney World, Disneyland, our enjoyment, of Disney Plus, the fact that our children, I remember my oldest child used to simply watch Snow White every single day of her toddlerdom. She'd still watch it now if she's got half a child. What are we supposed to think?

Yeah, I mean, that's a hard one because I don't think people should pull away from the company. It's still a wonderful, it creates wonderful things for children and families. And if you go, I like to go to that park, Disneyland, and just watch the way families are together. and there's something profound that happens when they're together that's so, so important. So I don't want people to pull away from it, and if they're there, I want them to at least be sure that they think from the bottom of their hearts,

every single person who works there because they really work there out of love. And they know they'll get paid less than a lot of other places, and they still work there because of how important they think it is. And then don't simply believe what the companies are telling you about how they're handling things. if you own shares, let them know of what you think about salaries and how the company should be running. Yes, I am.

Yeah. The whole trickle-down thing, the idea that you can make a ton of money and it will not in the end just benefit you, but you will employ people and you'll buy stuff and you'll be out in the world. You don't buy it at all. I've been living that in America. I'm watching it. And you know what trickles is urine. I mean, it is like that coming down in a trickle to the people at the bottom.

It has never worked the way they claimed it would, and it never ever will. And just look at the statistics and the people and the number of people at the bottom and the number of the people at the top. It doesn't make sense. So you need to structure the economy in a way deliberately. Economies don't just happen. They get structured. And deliberately in a way that puts the workers way at the front of the calculus before you

decide what your business plan looks like. And generally speaking, the workers are the calculation you make at the very end of all your other calculations about whether or not your business is viable. There are now trillionaires in the states, aren't there? Not quite yet, but soon. Okay, and that will be Masque Bezos presumably. Yeah, yeah. Or Aldman. Unsaam Altman might be another one. And none of them gives you a great deal of faith in the judgment. of trillionaires. I can't even say that without choking a little bit. It's an absurd amount of money. I don't actually even know how much it is. Is it a billion billion? It's a thousand billion. It's a thousand billion. But to give you a sense, if you started

counting today from one through ten and onward, a million would take you weeks. And a billion would take you your entire life plus another lifetime and more. So a trillion is a ridiculous this amount of money. You can't even count to a trinity. If you're a very conservative billionaire and you put your $1 billion into a 5% account, you're getting $50 million a year without lifting a finger. And generally speaking, you've invested it so that it's tax-free or you've structured it so you can get around your taxes. And what are you going to buy every year for $50 million? There's nothing. There's no way to spend that money. And so therefore, your billion grows, whether you want it to or not. Okay, I mean, to be fair to these men, it's not easy.

I don't think we have to. We don't know that they don't give a ton of money to charity, as you do. Mm-hmm. And what do they give to charity? How much do they get to charity? Well, I don't know. Are they giving $50 million a year and then some? No, no.

How much have you given away so far? I've given away about 80% of my net worth at this point. I read the figure of $70 million. Yeah, and I've given away more since it's an old figure. Have you? Okay. Yes. So it's a moving target.

net worth is a moving target but basically leaving our hope for the well-being of the society to a handful of people whose judgment, they've already shown us, they don't have great judgment

to unaccountably and voluntarily make sure things are functioning well, it seems like a stupid way to structure a society, a really stupid way. I think some people listening to this will just think, okay, I mean I like this lady

but she does sound like one of those hand-wringing liberals with a heck of a conscience who's trying to do the right thing but I bet she lives in a mansion and she's probably got polo ponies and I mean there must be as you've said

you don't struggle to get tables in restaurants apart from giving money away what is the best thing about being as wealthy as you well when I employ people I employ them at good salaries and I make sure that they have dignified lives. That's where it starts, right? How are you treating the humans around yourself?

I give money in a way that is meant to go at structural change instead of just simply alms for the poor and things that make a difference in the structure of their lives and their futures. And I think we all need to recognize that we need to be fighting for the invisible people. And yes, I have an overworked conscience. it is true and I am a hand-ringing liberal. It is also true. Guilty.

But if you want to argue with me about whether you think it's okay and right for society to depend upon people to suffer so that a handful of people can be rich, then I don't think my conscience is overactive. Do your children believe

in the same things as you? My children are pretty great. I would hand the rings over to them any day. Right. But will you leave them some money? I will leave them some money, but nothing even close to what I was left. And they are aware of that. And I have, you know, spent my way to a point of it won't be possible for me to do that anymore. And they are good with it.

I mean, this is a series of decisions I've made over years and with them involved. And it's hard to not leave to your children as much as you got. That's so deeply drilled into you from the time that you're born that if you leave this world with them, less than what you started than you're kind of an idiot you know and so and and if you leave this world leaving your children less than what you started with your horrible person so i've really struggled with this and i struggle with the question of how much is enough for me to have i do live in a nice house i don't have a thousand polo ponies and i don't have an airplane and i can stand in a line i'm not incapable of standing in a line to go through security right and most very wealthy people would rather be

shot than do that. And I just think that's sort of lame and pathetic. I am happy to join the human race and be just one member of the human race. That's all I'm thinking that we should be able to do. I could talk to you for hours because this is absolutely fascinating. I nearly have. I'm conscious of that. But I'm just thinking about it, and the size of Britain's welfare bill, for example, it is enormous. And some people in the country have a very genuine concern that we are spending far too much on welfare. and right now not enough on defence.

So Britain is probably, if you're poor, I mean, I'm not poor and I haven't been poor, I should say. But Britain would be a more benign place to live than the US. Absolutely. Because we do have backup. You will not starve. I mean, heaven forbid that you should. You will always have access, we hope, to free health care. Exactly.

But our welfare big bill is colossal. It is colossal. and it'll stay and grow probably because things grow and prices go up your defense budget isn't anywhere near as enormous and just horrendous

as ours and it's the largest... But that's the whole point we've depended on your colossal defense spending to look after us so we could spend money on health care. Believe me that you were fine in doing that because the people who are making money off of our defense

business are very wealthy indeed and getting wealthier every day and still every day advocate for a larger and larger and larger defense spend and and frankly i think it drives a certain amount of conflict they want to try out their toys and they need to you know get their new thing done britain is no slouch on defense spending and they have more than supplied many people in the world with many too many many weapons and fighter jets and so forth um so i'm not i'm not worried about defense spending in Great Britain at all, but I do think we could spend a lot less. Is the person, because I hate to break it to people, but there are people inside those

costumes, is the person pretending to be Minnie Mouse today in California or in Florida or in Paris, are they hating their life? I don't want to tell you that they're hating their life. I really don't want to tell you that, but it is not an easy job, especially in Southern California, Florida, when it gets really, really hot. And after my film came out, that was the last union that formed at Disneyland was for the people working in character, because it can be a very, very difficult job. But I will also tell you that they are some of the loveliest people you will meet on this

whole earth. They really are, and they love their jobs, and they love what they do, even if they're not always paid fairly. Well, are they paid a little bit more than the people cleaning? the toilets. They've always done a little better than the people cleaning the toilets, but not a great deal. But it's getting better for them because their union has formed.

Abigail Disney, and the American Dream and other fairy tales is the documentary she's made. Which Eve? You can find on Apple TV and Amazon Prime. She did that beautifully. She did very well indeed. Were you not tempted to end the interview with That's All Folks?

No. I'll tell you why not? Because Bugs Bunny was one of us. I think. Goodbye. Oh, brilliant. Okay, goodbye. Congratulations.

You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four,

on Times radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online. on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.