Off Air... with Jane and Fi - 'Awful, really boring, feminist women' (with Emma Barnett)

Episode Date: March 13, 2025

Book club is coming (finally), so prepare yourselves and get in touch! Jane and Fi chat bird song, burly beavers, sex workers, pets on zoom, divorce, a pig in a poke and Australia, amongst other things... Plus, broadcaster and journalist Emma Barnett discusses her latest book 'Maternity Service'. The next book club pick has been announced! 'Eight Months on Ghazzah Street' is by Hilary Mantel. If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The first beaver to come out of the cage, I'm going to use the adjective burly. It was enormous! Good! It'll survive. Survive? It looked like it could take over the world! You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca.

For those of you wondering, when are these silly biddies going to do Bot Club? It's next week, isn't it, Fie? It is next week, Jane. So we're going to finally discuss Eight Months on Gaza Street, written by Hilary Mantel, which we chose back in 1992. When it hadn't even been written. So looking forward to it. And actually, I'm very glad to say we've been able, I think you were out of the room when Eve told me this, yes, because she would have told you, but you weren't here, that she's booked Hilary Mantel's publicist. So we've got someone who can tell us about Hilary, because I was reading an email today from somebody who'd read the book

and was really glad they'd read it because they had not been able, and I'm in this category myself, to read Wolf Hall. Well, we both are, aren't we? So we have both confessed in public that we have tried the big sagas of Thomas Cromwell, and neither of us have been able to get through them, and have always felt slightly embarrassed by that actually. But that's brilliant because also I would really like to know much more about who Hilary Mantel was and where she was before she achieved her super stardom Man Booker Prize winning fame. So eight months on Gaza Street she wrote because she was living in the Middle East wasn't she? I think her husband's job had taken them there but I don't know more than that. So that's brilliant Eve, well done you. Yeah, oh she's been she's been working so hard since she got back from that

nine-month holiday. Yeah she's still looking tanned and lovely and relaxed and happy and let's knock that out of her. Magpies are clever too says Ali which actually is an email that starts hello Jane and Fee and sun-tanned Eve. Listening to you chat about clever hawks I just have to tell you about a wonderful novel by New Zealand author Catherine Chidji. It's called the Axeman's Carnival and it's told from the perspective of an adorable and clever foundling magpie. This little chap falls madly in love with the farmer's wife that rescues him from the base of a tree and the ensuing story is an enlightening tale of how intelligent these little

and sometimes maligned birds can be. Please consider it for your next book club pick. It's an absolute cracker. Oh, and while I'm at it, if you're after some TV drama featuring a terminally peed off magnificent middle-aged woman then After the Party is a must watch, a harrowing story but it stars the force that is Robin Malcolm, a New Zealand national treasure and is an absolute masterpiece. So we did, both of us actually

considered watching it but I just couldn't go there because of what it is which is a drama about abuse. I watched two episodes. Okay, you did better than me. But I packed it in. Right. She is brilliant, by the way. Fantastic actress. What was the name again? Robin Malcolm. Yeah. Hugely famous in New Zealand. I mean, she'll be famous everywhere. Do you know, I just, I'm sorry I couldn't finish it. But look, that's a great recommendation. We will start taking suggestions for the next book club book and I think you can just you can rightly become fascinated by the magpies and the ravens and the crows and all of the corvids because they are really super super intelligent so that sounds cracking. I did see a flock of a murmuration of birds I'm sorry I'm so ignorant I don't

know what they were in Liverpool recently and there's just something quite spectacular. So were they doing all of the sweeping? Yeah, they were doing all the sweeping. They were flying out over the Irish Sea. I mean, it's We have we're not even in the foothills of understanding How they're able to do that how they travel such long distances or by the way if anyone's looking for a restful TV recommendation that isn't like that New Zealand series, there was a documentary on BBC4 last night about an Irish ornithologist. I think it's just called Birdsong, and it's about this chap who is trying to collect the sounds, the songs of every single Irish bird. And apparently it's amazing. I haven't

seen it, but my mum messaged, put on the WhatsApp group this morning, she'd had the best night's sleep in ages after watching that before she went to bed. It was apparently truly wonderful. So more of that and more of those suggestions and I know that you laughed at my fungi documentary affiliation but... Oh my god I must start growing those mushrooms. But that's exactly the point of watching something like that. I think it calms your brain in a turbulent world in a way that we would be wrong not to celebrate. And those I think those things are a bit few and far between in our watching gaze at the moment. You are right. Long

after Tesla's and tariffs are gone. Yeah, the birds will still be there. Well I hope, but you know, if you drill baby drill too much, then they won't be, will they? And we're not really talking about that enough, I think. We are heading perilously close to the time of year where, in the UK, in this part of the world, the birds start going at it very, very early in the morning. We're not quite there yet, although the other morning I did hear is it a wood pigeon that does two pops and then pauses and then a third one? I can't do it. Yeah. No, you really can't. That was absolutely appalling. When you were away recently J. Mark Harrens taught us how to wolf

whistle and I thought that was good but that, you know, there was, wasn't there someone who impersonated birds? That was their... yeah, Percy Edwards. Percy Edwards. Just Google Percy Edwards Young Eve. I think he did bird impersonations. Yeah, he did. Anyway, entertainment has changed a little bit over the course of my already quite long life. Now we did have a conversation the other day about sex work, what feminists are supposed to think about it, what people are supposed to think about it. It's such a complicated area. It was Percy Edwards, thank you very much Eve. And this is from Sasha, and this is one point of view and many people will agree with Sasha. The conversation about sex

work is so important, in my opinion, no aspect of it is remotely empowering. The majority of women who are engaged in it are coerced, often violently, and have very little choice in what they're doing. I'm of the belief that consent cannot be bought. I think middle class women, and I am one, are scared of causing offence, or being deemed sexually conservative, or even jealous of what people perceive as a display of confident, assured female sexuality. It isn't that. It's violence, it's rape, it's coercion and addiction and trafficking. Even when you're talking about OnlyFans, the commodification of women's bodies into something for men to buy and sell, let's not forget it is a man who owns OnlyFans,

can never lead to anything good. It's a huge issue and women and children are suffering. The story of Jane when she mentioned talking to a woman who'd been doing it since she was 11 is not a rare occurrence. I hate the fact that the narrative has been twisted. Anora's recent Oscar sweep is a testament to that. It's not empowering, it is not feminist. The only people benefiting from sex work are disgusting and violent men. Sorry for the rant, she says. I like the podcast and how you weave in some serious topics. Well we do try. I mean, if we've tried in the past to explain what goes on in this podcast, we don't really know ourselves, but we do occasionally touch on some

really serious topics and this is certainly one of them. And Sasha, thank you. I suspect you speak for many actually. And isn't it dreadful that that young, well she was younger than me, the woman I met some years ago, who'd been working in this way, well I mean she can't say she'd been working in this way since she was 11. No, she'd been abused in that way since she was 11. No, she's been abused in that way since she was 11. Yeah, it's just absolutely god awful, isn't it? I haven't seen Anora. No, I haven't seen either and it's on our list of weekend watches and interestingly we didn't really want to go and see it at the cinema

because of its subject matter and because it's gang violence as well, isn't it? But I will give it a watch at some stage and I don't know, I just... I sometimes think we all allow ourselves to have opinions about so many things, Jane, that we really know nothing about. And sometimes, you know, our opinions are irrelevant. I'm a bit lost for words on this one because I don't want to offend anybody, I don't want to offend any woman who has found some kind of empowerment in her you know sexual agency. Yeah I mean I've got a tiny bit, tiny bit of experience of meeting both sex workers and talking to

them and talking about why they did what they did. And also I remember talking to an Anglican nun, fantastic woman who didn't wear the nun's clobber, but did fantastic outreach work with the women and some young men who worked around Kings Cross. And, you know, she was, I just remember her distinct, I can remember her name actually, Burt Wilmington now, really, really impressive. Those people who do the sort of, you couldn't, well it is social work, the sort of social work that most people don't want to really know about and certainly don't want to go near, but she was a remarkable individual. I think what would help though is if every man who used sex workers had to wear a badge. I wonder what that would do to the industry.

I wonder what the badge would look like. Because it's the point isn't it about women not having to carry the shame of what goes on. It's about time that men did and I think if you want to take the shame and stigma away from the profession of selling sex, then you should talk to the men about doing that. Quite. Shall we go to Taunton? Shall we go to Taunton? Which has been a little bit of a me-me this week. A me-me, a me-me.

It's been a me-me on the pod. It's a me-me. Hello both, I'm writing as a long time listener and first time contributor. I actually also live in Taunton and my hairdresser is also two minutes from Boots the Chemist. Melanie, I think if we have the same hairdresser she'd let you pop off to Boots with your foils in. I do think people would make comments but I also think that the flash of fun something new can bring to otherwise glum days should not be underestimated. Melanie, do it. Well, we say hurrah to that. To prove that some of us sunny Taunton residents

have had broad and exciting experiences, my mind was taken to a distant memory relating to sex work and strip clubs. I was a student in London in the late 90s and one of our housemates wanted us to go along to the windmill club in Soho. Do you remember that? Was that Raymond?

Yes. I never remember his other name. By the Raymond Review Bar. Oh, that's Paul Raymond. Yeah. To offer her moral support when auditioning to dance or strip there to earn cash to get her through university. It is all part of the professions as old as time. So acting in allyship, two of us accompanied our power through the dimpsy doorway of the

Windmill Club for an inexplicable reason. My friend and I were at the front with a person auditioning behind. We were greeted by a charming chap who looked at me, ample of body and breast, and my mate, not ample, of either body or breast, and in a despairing voice said, you aren't here to audition, are you? To which we both chuckled and moved aside.

So our perfectly formed friend, ideal 90s bod, could take her rightful spot. At the time, we found the whole experience highly amusing So our perfectly formed friend, ideal 90s bod, could take her rightful spot. At the time we found the whole experience highly amusing and understood that neither of us were prime candidates for such a job. When I ponder our friend's decision to do this some 20 odd years later, I remain confused about whether she did it out of empowerment or necessity. At the time she felt she could make a large amount of money in a short space of time and appeared not bothered by the work. It perplexes me still and I'm with you both about falling very much into the I don't know what I think space quickly

followed by it doesn't matter what you think space and I suppose that's what I'm trying to say as well Claire. My mum, sister and I loved the Barbican show which was only very slightly ruined. I love this. By the man who sat on the front row looking surly and pissed off the whole night. I saw him too. I didn't. My sister, a spicy tauntonian, decided that she'd better point out to him that he was a bit of a knob. So I asked him whether he'd enjoyed himself as he really looked like he hadn't.

After an intense moment where we did wonder if he might punch her, he said no, it was complete shit. A glowing endorsement that you might want to use for future promotion. So I think we will actually by the way. Were you there on the Tuesday nightclub because there was a bloke in the front row who was absolutely wrapped with attention by everything that you and I were talking about on stage but he did not break into a smile the entire night and I kept on catching his eye because it was kind of like, who are you, what are you doing here? And also love, I mean if you've been brought along under duress, why don't you just take it outside? Why don't you just go somewhere else, fiddle with yourself on your phone,

whatever it is you want to do. But it was quite unnerving. It's a little bit like being back in the BBC Radio Theatre where the roll front rows like that. Oh my goodness, yes well the arms folded. Oh yeah that's a look isn't it? Oh it is, yeah so in the radio theatre you'd have a whole front row, men and women, arms folded, massive great big John Lewis shopping bags. That's actually why they come to London for the day. They've just gone to John Lewis. Nothing wrong with it by the way, wonderful shop. Wonderful.

Late night opening, why not be there instead? So I do like that. Thank you very much for that full bodied, well there was a lot in that email. And I appreciate your mate from Taunton who did actually ask him, what's your problem Governor? Could it be Gerard who WhatsApped the show yesterday afternoon, he WhatsApped the Times Radio show, Monday to Thursday, Times Radio, get the free app, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4, hope I've mentioned that enough. Gerard didn't like it at all, he'd never listened to us before and he won't be doing it again,

he thought it was awful, really boring, feminist women, absolutely terrible, so he shan't be tuning in, we've lost Gerard and I don't know what we're gonna do. We only got him once. Oh Gerard, give it another whirl. Well no, but the thing is Jane, Gerard will give it another whirl, because he wants to be disappointed by women. He wants to be disappointed by us, so he will check in with us regularly just to make sure that we're still being shit and that bloke will probably come to another one of our evenings just to make sure that we're still completely rubbish. Thank you. Because the money still works at our end. We're not bothered. Oh dear, quite a lot of you noticed the joining in of Baroness Martha Lane Fox's Bengal cat in the. Cats, I think there were more than one.

And you know the Bengal Cat is just an extraordinarily beautiful creature, but in my experience of them they're not the most loving lap cats. They do make a lot of noise, but then they won't kind of perform as cats for you and just allow them to be stroked and whatever. But this one comes in from Joanna who has sent us a beautiful picture of your Bengal cat, in fact one that you're just looking after for a few weeks and she says as well, regularly and impromptu feature on Teams meetings and online lectures. High volume meows are the norm. Oh I think that's lovely. I think if you're on a Teams meeting or a Zoom, it does

bizarrely, it humanizes the person you're talking to if you see their pet. Oh, because you just start to like them a bit more, don't you? Yes. Almost inevitably. Yeah. It's impossible not to, not to, just feel a certain warmth. I think that's one of the reasons why Teams meetings and Zoom meetings are so strangely draining, is that there's not enough stuff that you can just let your eyes and your head wander to as you do in a normal meeting. You know, when we were having our meeting earlier, Rosie had a very nice jumper on that I was admiring greatly and wondering where that was from. And I was thinking when will Eve's tan fade? I was really concentrating on the body of the work as well in the meeting.

I did sense your focus just drifting slightly. Susan is paying a visit to Liverpool. Just wants a quick tip on, she's never been before, where should she absolutely definitely go? And it's so difficult. We're talking about one of the great jewels of the British Isles, of course. I would say definitely both the cathedrals. If you do nothing else just walk along Hope Street, Concert Square, well you could go there but yeah, or the Albert Dock, down to the Dock, go to the Tate, see if you can go around the live buildings which I did relatively recently, love that as well. You won't be able to do all that in a day, well you might, but definitely walk along Hope Street between the Catholic Cathedral and the Anglican Cathedral and pop into both. I think you can get a bevy

in both great cathedrals. Well that is superb. What a lovely series of travel tips. You made a bit of an mistake yesterday though because you described me as happy as a pig in a poke. Yeah, I did. I didn't realise this either. So a pig in a poke, this one comes from A, is used to describe a situation where something turns out to be less good than you expected. A poke means a sack or a bag and in years gone by if you bought a pig at a market in a poke without inspecting it you might get it home and realise it was a sub-optimal specimen. Oh god. We've all done that. Hang on. You had to carry, oh I suppose it would be a piglet, you couldn't carry a grown pig. No, it would be a little piglet surely. But you might find

that you'd ended up with less than you expected, so a pig in a poke is a disappointing thing, but a pig in muck is a very happy thing. It's a very very happy pig. I love it when people correct us. This is good. Can I just say that Caroline has been thoroughly entertained by finding us on YouTube last night. I think what you mean, Caroline, is the YouTube. Because she had stumbled across a clip from the live show. It was one of the funniest sketches I've seen in a long time. Now, Jane and I didn't realise this, but I thought everything that we did at the Barbican was going to stay in the Barbican but of course it was recorded. So it is, it's your chance to see Jane as Princess Margaret. Well, I'm sorry. If you're really bored across the weekend you might want to have a look.

I mean you'd have to be pretty bored. Tanya says, actually she's got a very good point to make which I'll get to in a second. She was having a working holiday in Cornwall listening to end-to-end podcasts while she did some work. Did Jane say that her great-grandfather died on the Lusitania? Yes, he did. My great-grandfather died, he drowned unfortunately, but Tanya's great-grandfather survived it and I'd love to know what your great-grandfather was doing. My great-grandfather was it and I don't I'd love to know what your great-grandfather was doing my great-grandfather was crew which I guess probably lessened his chances of surviving but I wonder whether your great-grandfather was a passenger let me know Tanya anyway she goes on to say a

divorce later in life I'm mid 50s hoping the divorce actually happened soon after two years ago discovering 30 years worth of my husband cheating on me. Wow. After a lifetime of being constantly lied to, gaslit to the extreme, and living this weird life that was basically a lie, I am thrilled to be nearly free of this man. Of course the discovery was appalling, it was like an accident of some kind, it nearly finished me off. However, never say, oh I'm sorry, when hearing of divorce. Often it's fantastic news. I can try to remember who I actually am without being constantly dragged down and into the life of another. That other person's choices are the opposite of how I lived my life. I trusted no one, his conquests included my children's teacher and my close friends." Oh god, listen this is really awful but you're through it, that's the good news Tanya. The

end is very much in sight and we're with you sister and may the next three or four decades be fabulous for you. You deserve it from the sound of things. So I really agree with your point as well that the whole notion that divorce is always something that you need to feel sorry for the person it's happened to, it's just not true. I mean it's a really really horrible thing to go through. Nobody sees it as being the end result when you marry somebody you love and it can be really complicated. I totally get all of those things but it also means that you're opening a door into

something different. Yeah. And that is fine and that is good and you know I think sometimes there is quite a weird thing and I don't know whether anybody else has found this too but sometimes in getting getting divorced you find in people you know a strange envy. It's not jealousy but a strange envy. You know, you can see it in their eyes. And I think it just points to the fact that, you know, divorce can be a freeing thing to do if you're in a difficult relationship. Well done for getting out of it. Hope Gerrard's enjoying this bit, he will be. Tanya says, love the pod, must try the show. Yes you must Tanya, come on, get the Times

radio app, it doesn't cost a penny. Yeah all right, I think we've done enough commercial pushing. I feel the baby's out in this episode. Okay. Now this one comes in from Megan. I would really like this to start a conversation actually. I was listening to the podcast in the wee small hours last night and in light of Fee's comments regarding very little desire to travel further afield I thought I'd share my story. Ten years ago I had the exact same view but as we know life can throw up a strange turn of events. Our youngest son was working on the South Coast post-university but met a lovely Australian girl. When her visa ran out the following year, they both

set off for a year in Australia. The year is in inverted commas before hopefully returning to the UK. That was in 2016. They now live happily in Brisbane. In 2018, our eldest son met a lovely girl from New Zealand. In 2021, they moved to Auckland, her hometown, and last year were married there with the most wonderful wedding. Because of this, we've now spent much time in both Brisbane and Auckland,

and have had our eyes open to a new world, new family, new ways of life, and seen things I'd only read about in books. We're really lucky with our sons' partners, who are fantastic young women, who've shown us the best of their countries and given us so much to look forward to. We keep in close contact as much as we can. If you'd asked me if I ever wanted to travel to faraway destinations I would have said Europe has more than enough to offer and the

UK actually plenty in itself. Did we foresee retirement like this? Absolutely not. But this is how things can change and who knows where our future lives may lie. Love the show and the podcast. I've been listening since the fortunately days. Well, Megan, thank you. That's just such a lovely email. I think it's really interesting, you know, what can happen with the people that your children fall in love with and the new opportunities in countries and destinations they take you to. And I suppose you've just got to keep renewing your passport. I mean, it just, it just might happen. But I don't, I wonder whether, do you start to feel differently once they have grandchildren?

Does it start to become any less of a positive thing? I know that we are a truly global world. You can get to Australia, you know, at the end of the next day if you really want to. But I wonder what happens when you have that mindset where you and I are at the moment, realistically, where you just think, I couldn't travel that far. Does that just change because, you know, the person, one of the people that you love the most in the world is there? Well, my cousin lives in Australia and her mum, who, you know, is of an age, in her 80s,

does go a couple of times a year. And I do think it's, I think it's a big old trip. There's no doubt about it. I hugely admire her and her partner for going but it's definitely a good, why wouldn't you if your child is there and your grandchildren? So look I get it and how wonderful that the daughters in law are lovely and that they're thoroughly enjoying exploring the place. And on that, you know, I can see the positive side, how absolutely fantastic to find yourself being welcomed into really beautiful countries. Honestly, Fie, I don't mean to be dismissive of Australia or New Zealand, if they were eight hours away, I'd definitely go.

No, I know you've had this from before and we have asked, but they say no. Australia and New Zealand have both asked me to go and live there. No, we've asked them to move themselves closer. That's harsh. They won't. Anna describes herself as being currently in sunny, warm, autumnal Auckland. And that makes me feel a little bit chirpier because if it's autumnal there, it must be something approaching spring here, mustn't it? She's five foot one as well. I hear you regarding not being able to touch the floor in a chair or sitting on

a couch. I've had to adapt in so many ways, including getting items from the top cupboards using kitchen tongs. I have to stand on tiptoes to lock my own back door. It's something that's annoyed me for ages. Oh, I have to go on a chair to undo the conservatory door. It's got a chub lock at the top. I have to get on a chair. Anna has a lovely six-foot husband who's agreed to lowering the benches in our new kitchen from regular height so it's easier for me to use them. Sounds like a lovely chap. Well best of luck Anna and the five foot one club is strictly speaking I'm five foot one and a half but it's it's a good club to be in

isn't it? I've never minded being really short at all. I just don't think I ever really thought that I was until I saw the school photograph. And then oh gosh that's embarrassing for me. In the long sausage school photo, you know the one where they, the big one that they do, I'm almost entirely obscured by the girl standing in front of me. You just can't see me at all. Me too. I look like I'm in the wrong, not just the wrong year group, but the wrong school. I look like someone from the nursery school. Yeah, because I'm on the end, as you must be. They put the short ones on the end.

No, I'm right in the middle, Jane. Oh, why did they do that? And it really is ridiculous. It's not very organised. It's at Swithin's, isn't it? I thought they'd be better. I'm on the end, at least, but you still can't see it. I think the girl in front was standing in the wrong place, or was it me? Anyway, it's May 1982, I should be over this now, but I'm not. Yeah, well, okay, I think some things do take some time.

Yeah, that one has. Nina says, love your podcast, listen to it every day. Fee, you mentioned you're listening to some new ones, can you share them as I need some new ones to listen to as well? Why don't we throw this out to the community as well because I think it is a time to slightly shake the snow globe and you know change the stuff that's going in. I'm finding it just increasingly difficult to listen to 47 political podcasts all discussing tariffs at the same time and what happened in the Oval Office. So I've turned my

attention to The Week with John Stewart. I always loved John Stewart when he was doing The Daily Show. He departed from that for a while but he is back doing a podcast that's... do you know what he was talking about politics in the Philippines on the latest episode I listened to and it was just a bit of a breath of fresh air and he does some funny stuff about America. I mean he is truly truly liberal so you know what you're getting. Will Gerard like it? Gerard won't like it at all.

No. But Gerard, why not wrap your ears also around the animal sense maker, which comes out of Tortoise Media, and that is where they tell you about the life of an animal every week and it's just really lovely. So in your same vein as the ornithology one, it's just a place to go to learn about giraffes, two-toed sloths. And what I really love about it, Jane, is that Tortoise is a newsroom, essentially, and they produce some really blistering investigations. Oh, yeah, they do.

It's a darker, darker side of the world. So I love the fact that presumably somebody has sat round their editorial table going we need a bit of a breather everybody, let's investigate some beavers. You see you have to ruin it by mentioning beavers. No, I think it is time to reclaim the beaver as something that you don't chortle at. No, I haven't, there was yet another item about them being reintroduced and I know I've talked about this before but there was another, because they are constantly being reintroduced. I know, we don't need them to be detailed quite so much.

But it was on Channel 4 and they let them out of their cage. They travelled I think down from Scotland to somewhere in England that needed them, allegedly. And the first beaver to come out of the cage, I'm going to use the adjective burly. It was enormous. Good. It'll survive. Survive? It looked like a good take over the world. It was really... There's a viral clip doing the rounds at the moment, which is a beaver eating a mound of cabbage and it was sent to me last night and there are all

these scientific statistics about how much it reduces your blood pressure by watching beavers eat cabbage and there are some you know top names, top scientific names have signed this one off and it's true, it's incredibly satisfying to watch. Is there a noise? You're not very good at impersonationing. Could you attempt this? Now that was better, actually. All right. Reminded me how hungry I am.

Richard, who's in Brussels and had that very long hair appointment, has got back in touch. We were a bit puzzled by this government rate at the Adelphi in Liverpool. He's come back with the info. A government rate at the Adelphi was because I was working for the DSS at the time, and the Adelphi in Liverpool. He's come back with the info. A government rate at the Adelphi was because I was working for the DSS at the time and the Adelphi was on our list of hotels with a special rate. As to how I spend three hours at the hairdressers, well it's easy.

There's bleaching, toner, colour, shampoo, conditioner, massage and finally cutting. You get a drink included in the price. Right. I often bring my hairdresser something alcoholic as a present from my holidays. Right, you must have a very full head of hair, Richard. Yeah, complicated. Do you think you could do us a little before and after shot next time you go in? Do you think you could do that, Richard? Come on. Look forward to receiving it. With the Fizz loyalty program, you get rewarded just for having a mobile plan.

You know, for texting and stuff. And if you're not getting rewards like extra data and dollars off with your mobile plan, you're not with Fizz. Switch today. Conditions apply. Details at fizz.ca. Right, are we going to introduce the guest? Yes, who's the guest, Fee? The guest today is little-known broadcaster. We like to help up younger colleagues who are slightly struggling in the world. And here's one of them.

Emma Barnett. Emma is a force of nature. She's helmed the big shows over on the other side, notably Woman's Out, although not as long as my colleague here in the studio. She's also written about her own path through life. Her previous book about periods was enormously helpful in breaking down old-fashioned barriers, preventing us from discussing something that half the world goes through.

And similarly now, she's written a book about her experiences of being at home looking after her babies. She's got two children, a son and a daughter with her husband, Jeremy. The book is called Maternity Service, not Maternity Leave, because the whole point is that Emma wants us to rethink how we view that time that women take away from work. Welcome to Time's Radio Towers. Thank you, that's a great noise. I'd like all of our guests to start with a little whoop. Sorry, Fie, I'm just so excited to be with you.

Yeah, I'd like all of our guests to start with that as well. So, your latest book is called Maternity Leave, but stamped in front of the word leave is service. So, if you were to explain to somebody why that's important, what is the answer? So I set myself quite a strange challenge that seemed crazed at the time to see if I could write down the feelings and thoughts while I was on my second tour of duty. And my husband was away for a work course, it was a heatwave, I bought some wine and some chub rub shorts, anti-chafe shorts from M&S to try and have a good walk in the heat that week with the pram. And then I thought I'm going to try and write everything down

because I'd been keeping notes and I was amazed at how much I had deleted willfully from the first tour of duty. And day three of writing, I came up with this thought that it's service. And I think that service maybe doesn't quite get the plaudits it deserves in our society, because service speaks to kindness, it speaks to duty. And for me, I felt that it fitted better and perhaps would have prepared me for what is largely

something you can't be prepared for, bringing new life into the world and all that entails. But it framed it better for me. You know, there's a new outfit, new kit, you do go into it injured, you are meeting new people that you've never spoken to before, you're walking endlessly in my case. And then you're doing lots and lots of things

in the phase and haze of love through sleep deprivation that are also mind-numbingly boring and the tedium and the deadening of yourself as you try to do your very best for this new self, this little person. I think the framing of maternity leave as a maternity service helped me dig a bit deeper and still does because it's still going on. We'll talk more about all of those things that you've just mentioned there but I was struck by something that you write at the very beginning of the book. I'm writing this because another older mother unintentionally made me feel bad

for articulating some of these feelings, the feelings that you've just talked about there. What was it that she said? She and I had both had IVF. So I think I have to always mention that there is a slightly separate context sometimes to the way I became a mother. Certainly the second time, which took six rounds of IVF, a miscarriage on the fifth round, not knowing if I'd try one more time and did,

and then have our daughter. And we were having a really lovely conversation. And it was imbued with that gratitude of being mothers in the first place. And then she said, oh, I miss it, because her children were over 18, make sure you enjoy every single minute of it. And I replied with some of a little bit

of what I've just said to you. I said, well, yes, sometimes it's like this. And sometimes I feel like my brain is actually disintegrating within itself, or I can't go for another walk with no end destination, or whatever the thing was. And she just looked at me and said, no, no, this is that time.

And was, you know, in her way, trying to send a memo back from her, my future self, I suppose. But actually it's really, it's a pressure to say to anybody, enjoy every single second of something. And I think in a way, having IVF probably maybe makes it even worse to try and talk about the complexities. Why do you think it is that women in the past, in the recent past, have not been as honest as you are being about the realities of what happens when you're looking after a very small baby.

Is it because there's something in our psyche that simply wants to park it? It can be quite a challenging time when you're pushed to the end of your mental tether. Is it a kindness to other women that actually kind of don't want to put people off? Is it a sense that we should wear a badge saying everything's fine? I think there's protection and I think there's respect for your family.

I think there's love and I think there's forgetting. The French author, I put it in the book, Leila Slimani said, we transmit lies from generation to generation and I think you don't want to say to your own daughter, I found this to be like this, because all you want to say to them was, you're remarkable and I love you. But those two things can be true.

And funnily enough, I thought I was going to have a boy. We already had a son. I'm not very good at hair. And I also was... But your own hair is amazing. Yes, I have people who do these things. But I, as in I go to a hairdresser like anyone else, but I suppose what I meant was I was also working at Woman's Hour at the time,

you know, the longest running women's program in the world. The slight pressure of raising an absolutely incredible feminist was now upon me. But it was when I had a daughter, I only dedicate the book to one person and it's to her. And I just thought if I could send correspondence back from this foreign land to offer some kind of map, you know, it may not be everybody's experience. I thought it was a good service in itself. And I thought it was a really interesting challenge. And that's all it was meant to be.

I didn't know if it was going to be an article. I didn't know if I might just read it somewhere, and then it became a short book. You do talk about how your mother had discussed maternity leave with you, and I found, I think it's a very, very similar experience. My mum had said the same thing to me, that it was just a wonderful time, and I think that does come from a place of love. Whereas a mum, you don't want to say, you were difficult because it isn't that, is it? No, and I also think this idea that you spoke to it before,

that we'll put people off, we'll put women off. I do not buy that. Everybody does what they want or they try. You know, that's where the Mel Robbins Let Them movement comes from if people are familiar with that. Because you have to accept, most people aren't going to engage with any of this stuff until they're in it. And they're thinking, hang on, what do I do now?

I think what our mothers did was to tell us how much they loved us, which is exactly what I will do. But I think you can separate the experience. And I think women's experiences have been flattened out into black and white forever. But you can love, love, love and find something challenging at the same time. I just think in a society where we're probably getting worse with nuance, certainly in a public square, I am trying to make the case for that complexity to be OK. You talk about equality in the book and your husband, the lovely Jeremy, who you've been with since university,

you and him have had a very equal life together. But just tell us a little bit about those feelings when you find that actually the front door shuts, the person you're very equal with goes, and what you're left with is a very unfamiliar territory. It's astonishing really and I remember an old woman because I have friends of different ages in my life which I really value saying to me oh everything's equal to you have a child just good luck with that you know and those words really hung in my ear as I remember the first time around the door shutting. I don't even think I shut it for you, it was in the middle of February, it was freezing, I was

standing there in a nightie wondering what had just happened, holding a baby I could barely hold because of the c-section and some post-natal physical complications and I I had to laugh. I mean I didn't laugh for very long. I then was like oh it's me and it was the first time in our particular lives where a joint initiative wasn't joined. And through to, if I can sort of fast forward a bit, recently I had a herniated disk on month four of our daughter's life, through to no longer putting on clothes that looked anything like me or feeling like me. And you know, you can't help but have very strong feelings

and a reaction. It's not against Jeremy, but against the men that we do this with, if we do it with men. They have the same wardrobe throughout. They have the same, you know, identity. Yes, their lives dramatically changed. His life has hugely changed. I don't want to deny that. But through to, he's not having to recover post this experience in any way and hormones and everything. So at times it's been extraordinary how it felt. And I really love your descriptions of what a day is like on maternity service. You write this, I don't think I've ever known the inside of a minute quite so intimately before. And it's true, I mean time sometimes takes on a completely, completely different dimension, doesn't it?

You know, I feel there was this moment, which I also talk about in the book, that you would really relate to. So when I'm not at work, I don't tend to listen to lots of radio or podcasts because I end up shouting at the radio, what I might do, or might say, in that really fun way, if you're with me at the time, I'm sure it wouldn't be remotely annoying. And I did happen to have my place of work on at the time, Radio 4, and there was a male artist on saying, God, I've got to keep working. What would I do if I just, acres of time, no purpose, no sense of myself? And I was like, mate, hello! Because I was waiting for one child to wake up and one child to be ready to be picked up. Snack box had been made, various jobs had been completed,

and I just stood at the kitchen surface with minutes, hours to go. And yes, I could go and watch TV. I think I'd already done that. I don't know, there was no taste for life at this point. It was just liminal. Yeah. And I love that word as well. Do you know what? I highlighted that quote from the artist. He said, I work because I must have purpose and it would be my worst nightmare to wander about alone with my thoughts all day. Well, I call both my maternity leaves wiping leave because you wipe so much. You wipe surfaces, you wipe bottoms, so much wiping. You wipe your brain, you just wipe it all. Let's talk about some of the very practical things as well that you put in the book. I love the fact that you

decided to have a different uniform and I wish I'd thought of that because there's something very demoralizing about trying to get back into your old clothes. Your body has changed, they are uncomfortable, they're quite often closed for work, they're not closed for being at home all day or in playgrounds or whatever. So what was your uniform? Yeah so I didn't know I'd done it until the second time around and there were five years in between, much longer than I'd hoped obviously with the fertility treatment, but I got out this capsule, it was like a time capsule and reacquainted myself

and it was stretchy maternity jeans, which I think all jeans should have that stretchy band around, even if you're not pregnant, and a black polo neck. So I ordered, in the end I think I had four or five, these stretchy polo-neck, breathable, because my children move all the time, so I haven't got one of these ones that just sits still, so I was constantly sweating. So I looked like Steve Jobs on maternity service, and a denim long shirt that by the end was ripped at the sleeves, and it was the same every single day, and then in the summer I had three smock dresses on repeat.

But it's a good idea, because then you kind of don't have to worry, you don't have to compare. I don't have to then think oh I don't feel like me and I just don't want to think about it and a bobble always on the wrist. Yeah very sensible. You also say I believe that at this moment in time Western women are the least prepared we've ever been for maternity leave and becoming mothers. Why is that? Because we talk and we are privileged in the first world to have access to information, to have free speech, to have liberated lives. That's the problem, liberated lives. It's the contrast. Okay.

For me. And again, you know, people may have different views on this and you're right. I am by definition a last minute person in the sense of because I'm a journalist. Am I a journalist because I'm a last minute person or the other way around? But I won't read anything until I need to read it, you know. So some people will have done lots of prep. I'm not denying that. But it still won't have dealt with the fact that perhaps your whole life you've been told you can do anything you want. You can shoot for the moon, you can, and you can still can obviously once you've had children, but I don't think that experience, the true reality of that experience is baked into how we

prepare women for then how it changes. I don't think I was raised, you know, and I say that in the wider sense through school, through Manchester society in the 90s, girl power, whatever else was going on, absolutely go for it and try and get as much done before you have kids. And I then didn't know what happened afterwards. I certainly didn't think it would be some of the ways it was. And I just think it's a mixture of feminism being brilliant and being exactly as you say, leaving us ill prepared for sacrifices and changes, through to, I don't know about you, but no one I know had had much exposure to babies. You know, pre, I had never really held a newborn, I'd never

really changed, I'd never changed an api, and yes I went to NCT and we did some stuff on dolls but I don't know it's just this mixture of it's a bit like we don't have any exposure to death anymore we used to lay bodies out in houses you know we've lost quite a lot of community things and we've lost a sense of perhaps a whole life and a whole experience that I don't think comes across sometimes. So when should a woman read this book? Well I would be very interested to hear, and I know some women who are beyond these years have read it and they have felt for some of them and I think that would be really interesting, that it

is something that explains and explores what they went through, it kind of validates some of that because I think what happens on maternity service is you start your new career alongside whatever else you had going on. So I would have found it, and I would still find it good to read it now, post I have a seven-year-old and a two-year-old. I know I'm still in some sort of trenches,

I'm not in the newborn, but I would say I would say I would be like, oh, that happened. Okay. It's very refreshing when you haven't read something before, I find, to see yourself reflected in it. So I'd be interested in that. There's a lot of women who've already got in touch who haven't read it, of course, because it's only out today, who've said, who've got it from this title as well. Just even the titles meant something to them, that it's maternity service. It kind of validates that. But I would read it probably when you're pregnant. Do you worry at all that, because you do need to talk about the kind of the bleak end of the spectrum when you're talking about maternity service, it's not that it would put somebody off having children.

I completely agree, if you want to have babies, you'll have babies irrespective of what even somebody incredibly close to you might say about having babies. You will carry on down that line. But it just might not really make any sense and sometimes I do feel that you need so much with you and around you to give birth to a child, knowing what's on the other side. I don't know. I think it's a map though. I think you read it, by the way, not just when you're pregnant, you could read it wanting to have a baby, you could read it during the experience. I think during would be optimum. There's lots of women who've already said they've downloaded the audiobook for Nightfeeds,

which is how I imagined it in some ways when I was reading it. I just don't think that. I think I went into Waterstones when I was pregnant and this poor man in Manchester, Waterstones, and it's my favourite one because I grew up going there, applied for a job and never heard back. I just want to add that. And I said to him, I don't want a parenting book, and I don't want a book about being pregnant. Is there something about how it feels? And I didn't really know, but I was actually probably asking for a book on matressence,

which is the process of becoming a mother. Fast forward five years, my very good friend Lucy Jones wrote the book I wanted, basically then. But another thing I would have appreciated was some dispatches from the safari I was about to embark upon. And I'd, you know, I know you're already pregnant at that point, you can't sort of back out. But I was trying to articulate and what I still think is quite a big space. And I mentioned some of the other books I have read that really have helped me in the book between it being about parenting or

it being about biology and I do think that space is women are hankering for articulation of that. Yeah it's a book that I would have really loved to have read on my maternity services, really loved to have read. Thank you. But also do you know what there's one line in the book that I really cheered you for writing, which is that we have come to a point in the kind of fashion about how we talk about maternity where it's very compelling to hear about the dark side, the messy side, and I think that's all to the good,

but it shouldn't stop you from being able to say the peaks of joy are something that we need to celebrate as well. And you shouldn't feel that you can only join in that conversation if your nipples are leaking and your pelvic floor is gone and your relationship is failing. You should be able to say this is a remarkable and wonderful place to be. I agree and I think again this book for me or what I was trying to do when writing it was to say both. And I, when my daughter was born, the happiness that seared through even my cut open body was off the scale.

It was like I had won every sports competition going and there was a crowd cheering for me. I was high, you know, and that lasted, I would say, months, you know, in spite of dips, tiredness. You know, so this is pure joy and pure tedium. And they meet. And I think that's, you know, they are the love stories of my life, my children, and they shouldn't be here. They're medical miracles. My husband couldn't even come to any of the IVF rounds, which I don't really think I've talked about because it was locked down.

So it was me and my amazing doctor, with some input from Jeremy, making our baby in the end. And, you know, the fact that they're here, and not just the IVF thing, just for anyone who's managed to have a baby, you know, it's extraordinary. And I feel only happiness that I can talk about the happiness.

But I, do you know what it was, Fee? I also feel my first time, I was so blindsided by everything because it was my first time, I was so blindsided by everything because it was my first time and the experience of it, I feel like I had unfinished business with maternity leave. I came back to put it on trial, prosecute it a bit, play around with it and try and reflect the actuality of it. Like deferred gratification

is now my total normal way of living. I think of something I'd like to do if I could even remember what those things are now. And then I might not get around to actually doing it for months, which I know that sounds, I mean, talking about small things, like to go to the cinema or, you know, just the organization that then goes into your life,

especially when they're small. And you get good at it because it's your new way. But when it first happens, it deserves recording. And it's your new way but when it first happens it deserves recording. And it's recorded beautifully. Thank you very much indeed. Maternity Service is out today. It is by the one and the owner, Emma Barnett. I'll tell you what, just a tiny tiny bit of career advice from down the line. Don't go back to the job in Waterstones. You're really doing okay. I think you've really got something. You're my other careers advisor though, so you know that.

You know when I ring you and we go for dinner it's real. Waterstones will be okay. The redoubtable Emma Barnett, so her book is called Maternity Service. It is a short read, it's somewhere between a pamphlet and a book really and it's divided into very easy to digest chapters Not least because you know, that's the only Bandwidth she had when she was writing it But I think it's in recognition of the fact that many women reading it won't really have any bandwidth at all So nothing is more than a couple of pages long. Should you read it before you go on maternity leave? No, would it help you afterwards? I think you should read it before you go on maternity leave? No. Or would it help you

afterwards? I think you should read it while you're on maternity leave. I don't think it's a book that you should read before you actually have your baby. I think concentrate on the pregnancy, that's complicated enough. What comes around the corner is just really hard to explain first time round, isn't it? The changes that you will have to make. And there's no point in bursting people's bubbles before they need to have them burst. And I think the whole point of the book is just, when you're in it, you need quite a bit of support

and understanding. I'm not sure there is anything to be gained from, you know, reading it before you're in that situation. Would you have wanted to read something that was as much about the difficulties, much more actually about the difficulties than it is about the moments of joy? I think I'm just trying to remember what, you know, because it often turns out to be the way that you and your friends have babies around the same time. And whoever goes first is a kind of pioneer who brings information back to

the cave. From the frontier. Yeah and that is sort of what happened to me so I wasn't the first, I wasn't the last, I was sort of in the middle somewhere so I did have the kind of hive mind of women who'd been before me to let me know that it wasn't all a better process. But even so, I don't think anything can quite prepare you for the great, glumfing wave of responsibility that just washes over you in the nanosecond after you're shown, if you're fortunate enough, as we were, to be given a healthy child and to be told, congratulations. And then almost immediately

you think oh my god. Yes here we go but you can't I mean it's like grieving Jane you can't prepare yourself. No I don't see how you can really. For losing somebody and you could read all of the books in the world about grief but you wouldn't understand them until you're in it and I think it's the same thing about maternity but I think it's an incredibly helpful book to read when you are on maternity leave. And yours might not be as challenging as the woman next to you, in which case you can just let some of it just slide off

and you're absolutely fine. But I think if you are finding it incredibly challenging, it's so isolating that having a book like that will just make you feel a bit better. You know, people get through it and it's not weird to really, really love the child that you've created but hate the situation you're in. Those are two completely compatible things. Yes, absolutely. And you shouldn't be afraid to say it out loud. But isn't it wonderful just to be able to help the up-and-coming as you suggested at the beginning there I mean well done

Fee. Thank you I mean I'm just I'm just really I'm just here to help. Hot of gold. Ron's an outreach service for younger. Incredibly successful broadcasters who have completely overtaken us. I don't know what the weather holds over the weekend but if you are out on Hampstead Heath and you have something else to add to that conversation from earlier in our podcast life do let us know. It's Jane end of another Off Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2-4pm on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case.

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