Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bamboozled by the three-hole teat

Episode Date: January 28, 2026

Normal programming resumes - Jane’s back, and there’s actually a guest. Jane and Fi discuss glove flirting, removing offspring from the phone plan, the resurgence of the butter dish, age-defining shopping, and whether there’s ever really a right time to don a fascinator. Plus, evolutionary biologist Dr. Ben Garrod discusses cloning his dog Jack. Our next book club pick is 'A Town Like Alice' by Nevil Shute.Our most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.You can listen to our 'I'm in the cupboard on Christmas' playlist here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How about you, Jane? It's barely, well, it's six minutes past 12. I'm exhausted. I've aged about a decade since I came back to work this morning. Anyway, look, there's lots going on. There is. We've just been on a little tour and a practice sit-down in our new studio, which is downstairs in the bowels of News UK.

And that's where we're going to start having ourselves recorded in Vision. It would be a treat for everybody, won't it? But whole fire, because it's not quite happening. just yet. No. But it won't be long. It was quite exciting. But it was exciting.

Jane, how was your mum's funeral? Yes, it's a, thank you for asking. It's a big old question, isn't it? It is. I think it was a really good day. And if it is possible to enjoy a funeral, I mean, obviously it didn't enjoy them because we couldn't get a slot in the crematorium

in the chapel there until three in the afternoon. So it's quite a long day, quite a long day building up to that. it was all a bit that was peculiar but then we'd waited so long between I mean she died on December the 21st so it's a long nearly five weeks to wait I know people have waited longer

but it did that was that was very stressful did you have that slightly odd thing at crematoriums and this isn't a criticism of crematoriums at all we're all going to end up in one well if we choose that form of departure I think the staff there do an absolutely amazing amazing job given what they're dealing with on a daily basis. But because crematoriums are very busy indeed,

you do arrive as somebody else's loved one is being departed and you do depart as somebody else's loved one is arriving. And I don't know how you found that. I'll tell you why I'm mentioning it. I found it unbelievably comforting to actually be part of something. It was a reminder that it is a universal experience. And actually saying another family on the way in and another family on the way out. Because you're very, very far removed from normal life on that day, aren't you?

And you're right, you do perhaps selfishly think, I mean, it's not selfish as natural. It's only, I mean, nobody knows how I feel. Of course, almost everybody is, well, if you've had a mother, at some point she's going to die. You just have to accept that. But so it's, although oddly, my mum's service was the last one of the day,

so we didn't, there wasn't any, waiting. But there's also, and again, because they have to do it that way, there are people whose working lives are at the crematorium. You do apparently get fined if you go over your slot. So there's a certain amount of, come on, everything has to be timed. I've never heard that before. It's true.

We had what is known in broadcasting as a hard out at 3.30. Did you have to speed up? We would have done, had we not. I should be absolutely honest about it to say the settlement. for my mum's funeral. I was a really good friend of mine who used to work at the BBC with us both, actually. You know her as well, Jill. And so it was lovely to have a friend in charge of the words and holding it all together and she was brilliant. So that was hugely comforting to know that. And did you meet people who came along who you'd never really talked to about your mum before? Yes, no, there were lots of people there from the house in which we spent our formative life. So in suburban Crosby, there were people from there which was lovely. our next-door neighbor's son came. People, it was just stuff like that is hugely significant and massively comforting.

And that people just make the time to travel. And that's so lovely that people think, oh yes, when I told them when the funeral was, they made a note in their diary. It sounds like a small thing, but it isn't a small thing. And then they made the effort to come from Somerset or come from Yorkshire or Humberside or T-Sy. I mean, you know, people properly made the effort

and that makes the whole thing incredibly significant and hugely comforting. And we were talking about this earlier and I have heard from friends that some people say, get the funeral over with, you'll start to feel better. And other people have said the exact opposite. So I just think it's incredibly personal and I don't know how I feel really, except I'm glad that Monday went well. Mum would have been thrilled by the people who came. And I think she'd have enjoyed the spirit of it because we truly did celebrate her life.

And we had some cracking photos down the decades, which were, you know, I think most crematoriums do offer this now where they can set, I think it's about 25, 30 images to a song that is loved by the deceased. And it comes up as a montage. Yes, that is lovely. That was really, really good. And we tried to include as many of her significant others, you know, friends, whatever. She only had the one husband.

Well, I mean, I tell you what, it's an exciting funeral. when you find out that's not the case. That would have been very surprising indeed. But those images got some laughs as well because we were quite careful in choosing ones that were a genuine representation. There's one where she's just clearly a little squiffy holding what looked like a very large gin and tonic

probably taken when she was about 43 or 4. But you know, she looked great in it, but she clearly had a few bevies. Well, fair enough. And absolutely. Everyone's got a shiny face shot. Nothing wrong with that. So it went really well, thank you.

And for me, as a non-organiser, I feel profound relief that I, that did come together just as I'd hoped it would. Can I ask you what might be a difficult question? Yes. As a non-believer, did you find in the moment that you were actually thinking of some other being up there? That's a good question. Something else outside of the.

atheist world. That's a really good question. We did have the Lord's Prayer at the end, because I've been thinking a lot about this. My mum did slightly hedge her bets. So she wasn't a regular attender, but at the same time, during her life, she had gone to church. And she'd been to a lot of church associated groups, you know, the guides, the brownies, all sorts of, she went to a group back in the day called the Young Wives, which was affiliated to one of the churches that she did attend. So she wasn't averse to a bit of religion. So we did have a prayer at the end, and I was glad we did. Because there were a lot of Catholic folk who came to the funeral

who I think would have wanted something like that. And if I'm honest, no. But weirdly, I remember thinking on the day she died, I did think I thought a lot about my grandparents, if that makes any sense. I thought, well, maybe she's, I did want to believe that she's back with them. Isn't that, is that daft? No, I don't think it's daft at all. I don't think it's staff at all

I mean I think that there's quite often certain times in your life where you lean into believing in something that you're absolutely sure you don't believe in Yeah I mean I don't think for one minute truly Or maybe I'd you see we're a massive contradictions Aren't we just?

Aren't we just? We really are. I remember at the funeral service for my dad which was lovely It was in a local church He had never attended with a priest I'd never met Oh God

But that's the often the way, isn't it? Well, it is, and we just thought the same thing, that actually it was more for other people who came that we needed it to be in a church. But then there was a, he was cremated as well. But I just remember looking down at the carpet, which was a very strange kind of lured green. And it had obviously been some kind of brick-a-brac sale that had afforded them enough money to buy this lura carpet. And I just remember thinking, Dad would have loved that, because he did love a carpet. Oh, well, that's good. And I think you do need, I mean, that's got nothing to do with believing in God. I think you need to be in a, place that represents something different, don't you, from the normal humdrum world? That's what's in me as a kind of non-believer, but somebody who has stepped into churches at some points in my life. It's just going into a building, actually, that you recognise. And saying things like the Lord's Prayer that you probably recognise

is just very helpful, isn't it? It is. I mean, I found the whole day incredibly helpful. Sad, but also funny. And, yeah, it just felt like a, it felt like an, appropriate send-off, you know, and I think other people have said that to me, oh yes, and that was, she would have enjoyed that, which is ultimately all the matters. What she wouldn't have enjoyed, I've got to say, is the fact that there were literally

no sandwiches left by the time I got to the trestled table. Not even an egg and crass. Well, there was one egg on white bread left. And I, you know, I was, I did feel that perhaps, it's true what they say about the older folk and a funeral buffet. They didn't, not a, not a, not a crust was wasted. Well, apart from the one I didn't finish. I did try to eat that sandwich.

Anyway, it's good to know that the funeral food was much appreciated. I should say, the staff at the sheltered housing did a lovely job as well. That was there a gluten-free table? It's funny, when my dad said, I've ordered five different fillings. So I said, okay, have you thought, and I was, shouldn't have said this. I was winding him off, but I shouldn't. Have you thought about the celiacs, the gluten intolerant, and indeed the vegans? And he just looked at me and said, have I boccary.

And I said, right, well, there we are. But I have to say, as nothing was wasted, clearly everything that was prepared was appreciated. Excellent. Well, I mean, the vegans, they could always just take the, they could take the salmon out of the salmon and cucumber. Just bring your own, you know, if you're going to an older lady's funeral buffet. But, exactly. Wait outside. Shall we stick with the religious theme

Because the lovely Reverend Cannon Doctor Alison Joyce has been in touch She is the rector at St Bride's Church In Fleet Street, the Church of the Journalists On yesterday's podcast, Fee made reference of the fact her reading glasses are still here in the vestry And they are, Jane, I haven't been to pick them up yet since before Christmas. I thought you might like to hear about some of their exploits

Since being with us last night, Fies glasses accompanied me to the Women in Journalism Award ceremony at Canada House in Trafalgar Square. I took them with me as my guest on the off chance that he might possibly be attending the event. Now, I think we were very kindly invited to that event, weren't we? But obviously, it was an inopportune diary moment for you, and I couldn't attend either.

So I'm glad you had a good time, Alison. Sadly, this was not to be the reuniting of me and my glasses, but I'm very pleased to report that the glasses had a wonderful evening, met some outstanding women journalists, and enjoyed plenty of champagne before coming home on the bus. This morning I found these reading glasses, gently sleeping it off, nestling in the straw of our epiphany crib. See a attached picture just behind the infant Jesus. It's a lovely picture, Alison.

I hope Fee can confirm these are indeed aspects. Well, they definitely are. And this is the interesting point about it. In case you're wondering, St Brides observes the correct practice of keeping our epiphany crib featuring the wise men in place for the whole season of the epiphany, which ends next week on the feast of candle mass on the 2nd of February. Gosh, it goes on that long. Doesn't it just? And I didn't realize that.

Sorry, is that to mark the journey of the Three Kings? The wise men. Yeah, both there and back. I presume so. They're on a return ticket. Never forget about your onward journey. Oh, no, absolutely not. So that explains so much because we've got a couple of churches in our neck of the woods

that have those nativity scenes, and I always say nativity, and that's probably the wrong term. And they're outside. They're still outside. And I keep thinking, oh, for goodness sake, will you just get rid of these things? It's very bad luck. But obviously, it's completely on me. It's my ignorance.

And they can stay until the second of February. Well, I'm ignorant because I keep seeing that there are still garlands on some doors. Well, there you go. I'm very worried. Maybe they are waiting until the end of the Feast of Candlemas. It's possible. Sometimes you just think people are still drunk. They just haven't been out.

Or maybe they went on a very, very good holiday and just decided they didn't want to come back to broken Britain. It's broken chain. We heard that again. from Suella Braverman. Oh, yes. Due to personal circumstances, I wasn't really engaging with the Suella Braberman news,

but I wasn't all that surprised to hear it when I did re-engage with the world of news. She'd said broken Britain, had she? Yes, it's completely broken. Oh, right, yes. I'm just looking out, yes, I mean, there's not a thing working.

The sun beats down over one of the most gorgeous and throbbing and thriving cities on earth. I think the problem with any former Tory minister saying that Britain has broken. You had 14 years. Why didn't you do something? I didn't get in the lastoplastoplast out and do something.

Exactly. You should have been oiling the wheels. Perhaps. Perhaps. Just a thought. We were also discussing yesterday with Young Eve on the programme when middle age was because in your interview with Carol Vordman, she said midlife and she's 65. Well, it was funny because I've got, as you know, I'm a very discreet person.

We did have a number of messages when that interview was. put out, as we say, from people saying she's really optimistic. If she thinks this is... 130. She thinks... Carol Fordem and needs to live to. Yes. If she thinks this is middle age.

But I thought on taste grounds, I won't mention any of them. But I thank you for those messages and I did see them. It's an interesting point. It is. But there's a serious point behind it. Yes. Which is, if you were doing the same thing where you were clinging on to your youth, I think you are judged very harshly for it

and therefore is it wrong to ignore people in middle age who are doing the same thing. Isn't it a bit disrespectful to still claim that your middle age when actually I think you've turned the corner into old age and there's nothing wrong with us saying that Jane that's what upsets me about it. No, there shouldn't be anything wrong. There was a headline on the front of the Daily Mail yesterday

Not the Daily Mail. The Daily Mail. Which basically said, you know, inside, you know, here's yet another article on how we can defy old age. Why do we have to defy old age? Why not just be grateful you didn't die young? Exactly, Jane. How about that? And especially as women.

Because when I didn't read that article, because it just would have upset me even more. But when people say defying old age, so much that's about our appearance. Well, all of it is pretty much, isn't it? Yeah. So I don't want that. I don't want that on me. So Carol, be old and be proud of it. Of course.

And I have to say there was one particular guest at the buffet at the funeral, after the funeral. She was just brilliant. She was the same age as my mom, so early 90s. And she made so much of the occasion, and she made the occasion, because she worked the room, and she talked to people she knew,

and if she didn't know who somebody was, she asked them, and she found out why they were there. And people like that, who are still curious, still engaged in the world, and in the lives of other people, honestly, I bow down to them. Be that, be that individual. So Abby says this, the bit in between middle and old age. And I think it's a fantastic point, Abby.

Regarding how we define middle age, I don't think we should leapfrog straight from middle age to old age. There does need to be an in-between. I'm early 50s. I can't imagine being old at 60. So what about a second spring? It's what the Japanese call menopause. And I've always thought it was so lovely

because 50s plus does seem like a renewal. in a way, even if it is just more of an effort attitude, or maybe we should just be effort age, middle age, effort age, old age. I think effort is definitely to be embraced. So yeah, we could just give it another title and therefore buy ourselves some time. One minute I was young and free-spirited and quite literally anything could happen for you. And then the next... It's in the girl, Guy, jeez.

The next minute, look, we've all been there. You start buying Descaler. You know, you realise you're running a household and you're going to need it. And then you get as old as me and you've got probably another bottle of descaler in that fit under the sink. That's just called growing up

and embracing your responsibilities. But can I say, so I gifted you a small thing today as a welcome back present. She did, I'm just so touching. Tell everybody what you got me. I got you the really nice smelling disinfectant from M&S. But we've got loads of...

younger people on the team, they were fascinated. Oh, they were absolutely fascinating. So I think they're descaling early. Maybe they're, yes, they're young adopters of just being responsible adults. We're teaching them such a lot. It would be lovely to hear from our listeners about that defining moment. So yours would be buying descaler.

Mine was finding myself in the different aisles in boots. So when you're young, there are whole aisles in boots that you never stop at. You're just like, what are all adults? these things here for. Just get me to make up. Clear a sill. That's all I needed. Blue eye shadow. Blue eye shadow. Lip gloss. Hair gloss.

Everything gloss. Just get me to all of those things. And then there's a moment where you stop in a different aisle and you go how comforting all these things are here. Wonderful things that you can rub in that ease your suffering. I think that was kind of, I think probably 2930 was when

the different aisles took me. Right, yes. But then there's the years where very small babies when I'd be looking only at teats for bottles. And how long was it before you realised you could just put a pin in a teat

and you wouldn't have to buy the three-hole thing you know, that... I've only just learnt that. Oh, okay. So you genuinely... I used to go up a hole. You went up a hole. Yeah.

I think that's such a con. But I used to agonise over it. I used to think I don't know whether she's ready. from one and two holes. But you could just sterilise a pin and pop it in and there you go. Wow.

If only I could just go back in time. But we can't as we've established. Right, do you have a pertinent email that might take us on a little bit, Jane? Who have we got a guest? Let's just talk about that. Have we got a guest? Oh, we have.

Oh, and... Come on, let's do a properly produced podcast with structure. Let's... Let's... We should... say thank you to young eve for booking this guest because it's i think it's spot on very interesting spot on for our demographic uh we've got ben garrod who is a very very well qualified animal behaviourologist scientist environmental scientist professor at the university of east banglia thank you

eve eve he's sent your words up lovely we've got to get his title right because actually it's incredibly important within the circles of academia isn't it that we reference the university that he's currently working at because it means an awful lot too that you're them so we're very happy to do that while eva's finding his absolutely proper title you tell me all about him he has made a documentary where he pursues the option of having his beautiful lovely rescue dog jack cloned and if you thought that the cloning of pets was a quite kind of benign thing that rich people might do because it is still very expensive it's not available on the NHS yet and nobody really gets harmed in the pursuit of it you really need to listen to what ben has to say about

it's a terrifying but fascinating listen his documentary and also I think the thing that we've got to hold on to is that if all of these experiments are being done to see if you can clone pets then there just is a lab somewhere that's thinking right let's try and clone a human well of course don't you think it has already happened well if you listen to what you need to go through to clone a pet I don't think it has happened but you never know you you You never do know. Oh, you can't completely reassure me. No, I can't completely reassure you at all.

Let's get the full title. Let's get the full title. Just need to be... Here we go. Author, broadcaster and professor of evolutionary biology at the University of East Anglia. And then there were lots of pictures of Jack. We'll put those up on the Insta, won't we?

So Jack, thank you, Eve. Jack couldn't come in, the dog, because we've got a no dog rule in this building, which was a shame. Because everybody wanted to meet Jack. were keen to meet Ben, but we were keen to meet Jack. I mean, yeah, would you clone any of your

pay? No, because as well, A, I haven't got a spare £40,000, Jane. Funny, you know, they might surprise everybody, but I do not have a spare £40,000. I think the whole point of it is that you, the only thing they can guarantee is

that if you do get a new pet, it will be similar to your old pet. Similar, but not Yeah, not identical. Do you know what? I'm going to listen to the interview with Ben because I'll learn something from it.

And so why would I want a dog that isn't Nancy? Because every time I'd look at that dog, I would slightly resent them for not being Nancy. So when they did something that wasn't what Nancy would do, I know that I'd just get a bit annoyed with this poor creature. So when Nancy's time does pass, and let's hope that's a long way off, but I don't know being unrealistic about it,

she's already very old for a greyhound. I need to get a dog completely different. Would you clone her? Would you clone Dora? I'd ask to improve her. I would say why? Exactly. I simply wouldn't. Oh God. There was a bloke on the train this morning and I don't know why.

It's a bit like when you see a man with a little baby and you can't help but be, I mean ludicrously, I'm embarrassed by it, slightly impressed because they're holding a baby in a sling on a train. They was getting masses of attention. and anyway there was a fella on the train this morning with a sausage dog in his handbag in his man bag

and they were rather a good duo and it was very hard not to pay them attention so would you go for a dog that size next because I mean as a complete contrast to Nancy no right let's move on I think big dogs and small women works and big men and small dogs works I don't think a small woman and a small dog

I think it just looks like everyone shrunk. You've had an accident with the washing machine. And as I've said before, striding out with a beautiful, beautiful, huge hound has always made me feel a little bit like Bernie Eccleston. And I'm going to stick with that vibe. How tall is Bernie? Can we look that up? Bernie is our height.

Is he still alive? He's still alive? I think he might have left us. I don't think he has. Okay, well, we'll check on that. Oh, but I have not. It's a very interesting theory of yours. He's still alive, but he is 95.

Oh, I do apologize. Right, okay. Welcome back. And 95, that's a... He's five foot three inches. That is... That's a good height. That's a good height.

I'm trying to make up for the fact that I thought he might have gone to the great Silverston in the sky. But he definitely hasn't... Oh, God, imagine the headlines when he goes, final pit stop. I mean, there'll be everything, right? Let's not anticipate it.

So let's hear from everybody about whether you believe in Fee's theory that a smaller woman must have a bigger dog. Do let us know. I really think that's interesting. Jane and Fee at Times Dot Radio. Now something else has turned out to be interesting was we had a query last week from a slightly vexed listener who is a bit sick of paying for her children's phones.

And quite a few people are in the same sort of dilemma. This is from Laura, who's in Toll Puddle. It's a lovely name, is it? What a martyr. She's heard that one before. For foreign listeners, would you like to explain that reference? I can't. Toll Puddle Martyrs.

Well, they were, gosh, I can't either, but all I know is they were in the Blue Peter Annual. Okay. We've not done ourselves in favour. There was one of those beautifully drawn picture strips of their story. I think, did they go to Australia? Were they sent to Australia? They went to Australia.

Well done. Fill us in. There were six English farm labourers from Toll Puddled Dorset arrested in 1834 for forming a friendly society to protest wage cuts and were sentenced to seven years transportation to Australia for swearing

an unlawful oath. Wow. So, listen, Suella, that's when Britain was broken. Crikey. And I'm just astonished at the date, actually. Yeah. You were sent to Australia. It's a really good point. Not actually that long ago.

Yeah. So about 100, nearly 200 years ago. I'm so old now. But you're right, actually. It isn't that long. No, it's not. Okay, sorry, back to the email. Laura, who's probably sick to death of hearing about the martyrs,

says, I laughed at the email from your correspondent about paying her children's phone bills. We had the same painful business of extricating ourselves from paying our three children's phone bills once they were in full-time employment. And yes, there was some mild resentment on their part. Don't even start me on getting them to pay for their own car insurance.

I mean, I think that is another really good point. Are you paying for your family car insurance? Yes, my girl's parents. That's one is me. One is my former husband. We are paying for it. But it's another thing, isn't it, that you just wouldn't let it slip? No, I mean, isn't that?

Why would you? You can't. I mean, of course you can't. But isn't, yeah, it is, you're right. Thank you, Laura. that. And this from Caroline, I resonated with your correspondence dilemma, read the adult children's phones. The way I negotiated it was to offer each of my children hearty congratulations when they each secured their first proper jobs, following quickly with, how about I give you six months to get

your finances sorted, and then you can set up a standing order for your mobile phone. It worked really well, and after a gentle reminding nudge at month five, the funds duly arrived. What I need now is to find someone to give me advice on how to start a discussion about a contribution to food, housekeeping and energy costs. Yes, that's the other thing, of course. You may well have inched away from paying the mobile phone bill, but they could easily be living at home still, particularly if you live in a part of the country where rent is so expensive. So is it unreasonable to ask them to pay at least towards some of the groceries and the utility bills? I mean, in winter.

They want hot showers every five minutes, don't they, young people? Yeah, but it's a really hard gear change to make, though, isn't it? Well, here's another one. Julie. I've got two sons, 27 and 29. One's a doctor. Both earn more than me, yet here I am still paying for their phones. I cannot even send a dramatic fine or demand because my own phone is trapped on the same account.

If I cancel theirs, I take myself out as well. It's a sort of financial murder-suicide with added admin, she says. Right. I mean this is obviously very real and happening the length and breadth of the land. I blame bundles as well. Oh, bundles are dangerous. Because you think that you're saving money when you're buying into a bundle. But in fact, inevitably you're the one who's paying for the bundle. It would be cheaper to not bundle.

50 ways to flirt with your glovers comes in from K. This is fantastic. This is glove flirtations, a Victorian-era glove flirtation guide. which has been doing the rounds on the socials this week from the history dot source. So sorry, this is how you interpreted. You communicate with someone. Yes, the movements around gloves and with gloves

back in Victorian times. So it's kind of like horoscopes for your fingers, isn't it? Holding with tips downward, I wish to be acquainted, twirling around the fingers, be careful. We are watched. Folding up carefully, get rid of your company. striking them over the hand I am displeased

I think that one would be obvious striking them over the shoulder follow me follow me yes it's an early Tinder call dropping both of them oh I want to see you bend over and pick them up

I love you well not far off love in a different way there from Jane tapping the chin with your gloves? Is my mole hairy? No. I love another. Oh. Yeah.

Putting them away, I'm vexed. And dropping one of them, yes. Just yes. To whatever you were suggesting. Just yes. I like that very much indeed. How complicated. Tell you what. Better to just have a mitten.

When did people routinely stop wearing gloves? Oh, good question. Good question. Do you want my, was it the war, Second World War? No. Sometimes when, and this is pertinent, actually, to your mum dying, she would have been of the age, wouldn't she, Jane, to have definitely in her childhood,

probably had to wear a hat when she went out, especially if they were doing something special on Sunday. She would definitely have worn kind of structured clothes in her childhood. She wouldn't have had the elasticated waist and ath leisure wear. And she probably had a lot of petticoats and slips. Petty coats, do you? Well, we used to wear underscath.

I mean, the underscour didn't go until quite some, about 10, 15 years ago. But it's just so gone for good, hasn't it? All of that more formal dressing has just gone forever. Because in our childhood, we didn't really have to conform to all of those ways of dressing. So gloves is a good point. I think probably 1950s you would still have gone out and worn a pair of gloves

maybe put a hat on for a special occasion You might well have done Do you have a hat? I mean apart from beanies I've got a hat I've got only sun hats No I've never worn any other kind of I've never worn a fascinator

No But when you see a woman Have you? No I haven't got a fascinator No I've got I've just got Bobble hats Hats Hats was

I mean, it's such a skill, hat-making. Millinery is a wonderful craft. Some beautiful creations. And your royals still wear hats, don't they? But I think they're about the only people in Britain who do. And they look a bit stupid. I must be honest. I suppose they probably do.

I'll tell you what does seem to be making a comeback. And we've adopted it in our house. The butter dish. Oh, welcome back. A warm welcome back to the butter dish. We got given one at Christmas. There we are. So did I.

Interesting. It's useful, isn't it? Is there a trace? Are we, in fact, creating it or merely following it? I don't know. But I love a butter dish, because I'm keeping my butter now out on the counter. Obviously, Dora licks it during the day. Ooh.

No, that's why the butter dish is so super helpful because I can clamp the lid on and she can't get anywhere near it. And it does mean that you can buy all those lovely slabs, doesn't it? Exactly. A proper butter, not the spreadable. It's inspreadable. God knows. It can't just be butter. It's so expensive butter.

But if you're going to spend about, what is it, four or five quid on some butter, encase it in a beautiful dish. Treat it with the respect it deserves at that price. My God. So, yes, if you've recently discovered or rediscovered the butter dish, let us know. Yes, send us a photo. That's what's known as a shout out. Well, no, it's known as a, what is that when you ask for a response?

I don't know. I think it's just called a podcast. Right. Shall we bring in our cloning expert? Let's. Here's Ben. Do you love a pet so much that you would clone them to avoid ever truly losing them? Often the theme of futuristic films or books, the technology for cloning has been with us a while. But we're still a long way off it being something that your average pet owner contemplates.

Ben Garrard wanted to explore this world, not just because he is professionally interested as a science author, broadcaster and professor of evolutionary biology at the University of East Anglia. He also wanted to consider it because he loves his dog Jack a lot. Ben has made a documentary about dog cloning. We were all excited to meet Ben. We're always excited to meet our guests. But be honest, we were also hoping to meet the lovable canine scruff bag, Jack. And that's where we started our chat.

I assume you're talking about Jack, my dog. He's usually everywhere with me, but not today. And is that because we said that Jack couldn't come in or because you thought, oh, I'd just like to go somewhere on my own today. A bit of both. He does steal my thunder quite a bit. Yeah. It's thunder that you've created, though, isn't it? It is. He's a real character. And everyone who has a dog, rightly so, believes their dog is the best, is the most wonderful dog ever.

And I believe the same about Jack. But he does have a good backstory, like every good character in a story. So he was found in West Africa when I was filming with the BBC seven or eight years ago for a documentary on chimpanzees. And very long story short, it was a scruffy dog story. I brought him back on my last trip, got him into the UK, and we've been inseparable ever since. So he's from Liberia, and what kind of a situation had you met him in in Liberia? Was he literally just scruffing around you?

So he is a very savvy little dog. He'd taken himself to living in and around a chimpanzee sanctuary, almost as a non-human. human caregiver. And this wonderful series we did back in 2018-19 involved a whole bunch of active and ex-street dogs that were providing care for these orphan chimpanzees who'd been through the bushmeat trade, who'd been through the pet trade, who very often didn't associate humans with any level of trust yet they were able to engage with these quite scary-looking dogs at times. And then there was Jack, who's not scary-looking. He's like a scruffy, moppy version of a fox, really. But in terms of why I brought him back, he had skin conditions. He

had quite a rough life out there. And yeah, it felt the right place, the right time, and we clicked. Is there anything in that that you felt bad about, kind of ethically, morally bad about taking a dog from a different country, climate, world, and bringing it back? Not really. No, dogs are very adaptable. They've grown up. and being domesticated alongside humans. They're very adaptable as we are. He's light-coloured, which means he was very receptive to skin damage from the sun.

So he actually has a skin condition because, bless him, he hadn't evolved and had the right mutation to be a dark-skinned dog or a dark-coated dog. So if anything, bringing him back was an easy decision for me. My background's veterinary as well. So I'm fully aware of diseases that can be transmitted into the UK. We were very thorough with him. We had him muted.

The alternative was he was, I couldn't guarantee you have the best life in Africa. So yeah, brought him back. Didn't plan to. I'm not one of those who thought I would love to go and adopt a dog from a different country. And I think that's quite a big debate we could have. And there are pros and cons against that. I think it's always better to adopt, not shop,

but equally where you get those dogs from, there are plenty in the UK that do need rehoming. Every once in a while you can't, the heart says what the heart says. Okay, so, I mean, you've kind of answered my next question there, and I don't want to spend too much time talking about that. debate for what did you call it Adopt-not shop. Adopt-not shop, yeah. Because I'm sure that there are people going, oh my gosh, but

you know the dog homes are full over here, why do you have to bring a foreign dog in? Yeah, I agree. Yeah, okay. Tell us about your love for Jack, because this is what lies at the heart of this extraordinary documentary you've made about cloning. Absolutely, so I'm lucky that I straddle academia and media and write books. So a lot of my work is either at home or quite flexible, and very luckily, I've been able to take Jack into work with me.

He goes to talks. He's been at Hay Literary Festival. He goes to lectures. We're very often at the hip with each other. Has he got a podcast? Not yet, no. I feel like more than me again. I'm just professional jealousy, that's the main thing.

And over that time, like any good, I say dog owner, someone who lives with a dog, I don't think we should ever own these animals. But equally, that relationship has strengthened, improved, and become quite unique. So we do go everywhere together. And quite naturally, over my... I work in and across media, it's come up a few times.

We need a dog to film something. I've got just the perfect dog, which doesn't always go according to plan. We needed to film him running at full pelt for a BBC four documentary years ago in thermal image cameras. And we spent about two hours trying to get anything other than the trot. So, yeah, it doesn't always work with Jack. He's quite lazy. But you absolutely adore him.

Yeah. Would you clone him? That's a question I never thought I'd have to ask. I think we have these ideas where we all have that one dog, that one dog that your granny may have had when you were a kid or that one dog you have right now that you know is the best dog you'll probably ever have. I think that is Jack for me. I've grown up with dogs and I've had dogs as I've lived all around the world, fortunately.

But Jack is special, and I always jokingly thought, God, I'd love to never have to lose him. And I think that's a really common theme when you have a dog in your life. And as an academic, I do know that there are cloning opportunities. This isn't a pie in the sky, sci-fi, unrealistic expectation. I know that I could clone Jack. It's going to cost a fair amount of money, but I could save up and get that done.

I start exploring would I, almost as a little mental exercise in my own right. And then, fortunately, last year, or towards the end of last year, I managed to pitch an idea that kind of grew wings and took off based on this idea, this thought experiment, how far would I go to not lose my best mate? So cloning to an awful lot of people has stayed in the realms of science fiction and the future

But actually Dolly the sheep The original kind of I suppose go-to place in our heads For a cloning story was a long time ago So what has happened in between then and now So Dolly was over 20 years ago now and you're right It's one of these areas that's driven by cutting-edge science That hasn't really progressed a huge amount. And partly, I think, I don't know the answer to this, I think partly there's a big

aspect of public perception. So funding and scientific discoveries are very often driven by a need within, across our society. We don't need clones. What do we need them for? We have farms, for farm animals, we have breeds of dogs and cats and chickens and whatever you might want to live with in terms of pets. And we sure has held I want to clone humans, I'm assuming, as a scientist, so there's no real massive drive for these huge leaps and bounds we're seeing in areas like AI. If you compared the tech advances with AI with the tech advances in cloning, cloning seems quite static. We have refined the techniques and the ability within the cloning science, so the efficacy is higher than it was. But the success rates of cloning are really

low. You're talking a couple of percent. I think if the need increased, for whatever reason, and whatever that need might be agriculturally or in terms of medical use, we might want to clone an organ, for example, of someone who's chronically ill. That might be an option. But until that becomes more mainstay and part of the narrative that we're happy to talk about, both within the scientific community and within the public sphere, I don't think we're going to see massive leaps and bounds in cloning. which is interesting because it's now become commercial. This is the first time it's raising its head really since Dolly, this ability to clone your dog, clone your cat. And there are two or three places around the world who are cynically, I'm saying this, jumping in for an opportunity to use cloning in a business sense.

So talk to us about the process of cloning, what it actually involves for a pet. So in the UK, you can't physically. clone your dog, for example, within the UK. Our laws are quite strict, and I think rightly so, that we need to be really rigorous in how we approach something like everything from genetically modified materials and organisms right up to cloning. But you can take a skin sample of your dog. Now, if you were to go for the cloning option in South Korea, for example, you can take a skin sample from a living dog. That's an ethical consideration of itself. It might be you're talking

about a square centimetre, maybe two square centimetres. I can't think where Jack wants to lose two square centimetres of skin, first of all. Maybe he's having an operation where he's having some skin reduced because he's having surgery. I mean, I'm really pushing there. I can't think how you could legitimately do that. Alternatively, you take the skin sample once they've died. So when Jack passes away, if I wanted, I would take an ear sample, for example.

He's off to be cremated, I would say to a willing vet, which is a consideration in itself in the UK, because a lot of vets aren't. really on board with this I've discovered. But you would take the skin sample. That's taken away and stored really quickly to maintain the genetic integrity of that material. And then it's sent to potentially the states where they harvest the DNA, they replicate it, they sequence it, they then implant it into an egg from a donor that's provided, a donor dog, where the genetic material has been removed from that.

So you're effectively using the egg as a greenhouse in which to grow the DNA you've already been given there. And then after the gestation of a typical dog using another dog, a surrogate to house the developing embryo, you should get your cloned dog back. That's the process, and that's as simple as I can make it. But it sounds very sanitised. Should is doing some very, very hard work in that sentence, isn't it?

Because what is flabbergasting to the ears when listening, to your documentary, are the figures involved? Be that the money, be that the number of other dogs that are used. So tell us a bit about all of that. I think anyone listening is going to expect this is not going to be cheap. And I think since COVID especially, we're almost used to accepting that your new dog, your new puppy might cost two, three, four thousand pounds, whereas I'm sure like yourself, a dog cost 150 quid or 200 quid.

I got mine for free. I made a donation to the Greyhound Trust and that was it. Or something like that, absolutely. But this idea that we're paying thousands of pounds for designer breed suddenly is quite a modern phenomenon. So I don't think anyone would expect cloning to be cheap, but you're talking in the region of around 35 to 40,000 to have a dog cloned. Without a full guarantee, you'll get a dog back.

So there's a very good chance you'll get a dog back at some point. And again, it's like Yusuf should there. you should get this dog back at some point. But in terms of the numbers, the financial constraints and considerations aside, you're looking at, and this is where it varies wildly. So there isn't a huge amount of data

that's published from within the scientific community. There is some from Southeast Asia. They have been more open in the last few years. I think three or four years ago there was a paper published in nature. Typically, you're looking at somewhere between 100 dogs involved and whether that's the gametes, the reproductive cells, right through to the surrogates and the donors, up to a thousand.

It's just mind-boggling. Yeah, and by the time you're looking at this, so we're looking at the efficacy. So if I take that skin cell, or those skin cells from Jack, get the DNA sequenced, get it into an egg and get that egg to take, get it to implant, get it to actually grow within your surrogate, even then the chances of that egg. growing with the DNA of Jack into a new dog, Jack 2.0, for example, is between 2 and 4%. So that's tiny. And what's happening to those dogs in the process?

Who are those dogs? So we don't really know, and this is where it comes frustration as an academic. As a scientist, everything we do has to be transparent. So you could look at any of the research of myself, my colleagues, in any field that we do within science, if we publish that. and everything should be in a situation where it can be replicated, where it has to be transparent. The moment you take the science into a business setting, you're under no obligation to do that. So we don't know. We don't know how many dogs are being used.

We don't know how many dogs are losing their lives or being terminated or not going to full gestation period within these donors and surrogates. We don't know how many surrogates. I would love to think that jack skin cells are taken, an egg is willingly donated, by a happy dog that's sitting by a fire somewhere that she doesn't really feel anything, but that's not true. It has to be surgically removed. It then has to be surgically implanted into a surrogate.

But even then, that's just two dogs. That would be great. I could probably justify that in my head if I really wanted to. But what about three dogs, four dogs? 100 dogs? 500 dogs? And we don't know the answers.

We don't know how many aren't making it through. So you might think you're a dog lover because you love your dog so much. You want to clone it, but you're not loving all of those other dogs. in the process. The key thing to remember as well is, as you've mentioned several times,

the dog that you get back won't be the exact dog and there are quite a few professionals who you talk to along the way who use the word similar. You get back a similar dog. So why don't you just go and get a similar dog? And again it goes back to what you were saying before with our public perception of cloning and we all know Dolly the sheep

and I think the other area where we see cloning in sort of mainstream society, in things like Hollywood films or Marvel films, where you suddenly have a cloned character who is the mirror image, and they can almost both put their hands up at the same time, and that's Hollywood, that's make-believe,

that's not what a clone is, and we've never, within the scientific community, portrayed that, but I think this idea that if I said, right now Fee, imagine a clone of yourself, you're instantly going, oh, God, that would be just like me, and she would do that, and we have this perception of what a clone should and shouldn't do, and I think that's seeped into this,

whole narrative of cloning your pets because this idea is, from the public at least, those that I spoke with, this idea that you will get Jack back or Fluffy or Rover or Rosie or whoever you've lost, you get your dog back. But the reality, they might not look the same. They might not be the same sex. Gosh, and it would be very easy to take against that pet, actually, for the simple crime of not being the exact pet that you thought you were going to get. I I mean, all of it just seems actually very cruel. And I wonder what you think will happen in the marketplace because there definitely are people who've got money

who might not want to take on a different dog who want to be able to be prescriptive about their own emotions, etc., etc. So do you think that there are enough of those people to actually change the industry? I rolled my eyes in. I forgot I was being filmed. but yeah, I do, because I'm so cynical with this sort of stuff.

Unfortunately, we had people that we discovered who had cloned animals, but they weren't willing to talk about the fact they had them or owned them or got them cloned. But this willingness is there, and there are lots of people out there. I've since spoken to so many people, and people have been in touch when I've got a clone, my boss at work has two clones. I think there's an appeal. that it really isn't there for me, but I think there's an appeal to have something

that's special or unique as well as at the same time, something, someone that you've lost and loved. The cynical me, the reason I rolled my eyes then was I can see the next thing in this will be, my goodness, you could have the same dog as their influencer you absolutely love. Or that celebrity, you just love in every film

and program that you see them in, you could have that same dog. You could have Reese Witherspoon's little chihuahua that sat in her, purse in some of her early 90s films and all these things and you could have that iconic dog you could have lassie why wouldn't you want lassie so suddenly i can see a real demand of rather than design a handbags designer dogs at a genetic level that's where it could go and that's where i think it turns really commercial i hope it doesn't it really do it's also on a more basic

level about avoiding the emotion of sadness that is grief and and actually ben a I mean, we just, we have to take it on the chin when our pets die, don't we? There's something so bizarre about thinking that you can avoid that. It is, you know, the balance of love, isn't it? That's such a good point. And had I had longer with the program, I really wanted to explore that, whether this is almost a plaster over our very Western relationship with death, this idea that we don't talk about it.

I think our Western relationship with dogs as well. Well, that as well, you're right. Yeah, it's a little bit too much in places, and yet it's a little bit too little in other places. I don't think we talk about death or express death in a way that's healthy. I think we hide it and sanitise it, and you don't talk about it, and in many ways. And this idea that we can almost hold off death by bringing Jack 2.0 and 3.0 and 4.0.

I could have Jack on and on and on until I'm in my 80s, but that's not okay. That's not normal. That's not natural. And I think you're right in saying there's a really... nice avenue to explore the psychology and relationship with, why can't I handle the grief, the inevitable and natural grief of losing someone that I clearly love and don't want to lose, but I will do. And where do we stop with that? I mean, it's, I thought a lot about that in this

programme. And in the end, that very last little piece that I do in summing everything up, it did kind of hit me. It was already there, but this sense of it really is integral to our relationship to lose him at some point. And I think that's really important as well. As much as you lose something, you have to be prepared to understand it's going to go at some point. Well, it's a fantastic documentary.

I mean, it properly, properly made me rethink a subject that I just had rather lazy assumptions about, actually. So we've got so, so many pet lovers on our podcast. I would highly recommend it. Give it a listen and don't ever consider cloning your pet. Real pleasure to meet you. Thank you very much. You too.

Ben Garrard. So if you want to take a listen to his documentary, it is available on BBC Sounds. It's only half an hour long. Pop it in between your ears. Give it a noodle around and let us know your thoughts. Yes. I mean cloning, I hadn't realised quite how much was involved and it's... I think it's so disturbing, Jane. It's deeply... Well, listen, where do you turn these days if you don't want to be disturbed, apart from this podcast? It's a good point. I would really love a cultural change. that just had books and TV shows and filaments that had absolutely no injury, detail, violence, death, destruction, mayhem, whatever. Well, that reminds me. My copy of Neville Shoots, a town like Alice, has now arrived. It's one of those beautiful vintage editions.

Oh, it's not the tiny one, it's not the teeny tiny one. I understand you've had to give a mic... Well, this is back to your sort of nanotechnology, small lady with a big dog thing. You've ordered yourself a teeny tiny... Well, I didn't realise because it didn't, you know... Is it from a doll's house? It's one of those very, very small versions of a book, and it just would have been helpful on the website

if they'd put it next to a banana, so I could see exactly how small it was, because when it arrived, I mean, the font... Oh, I see, no, I know. So I had to give it to young ease because she's got a much better eye than we have, and she's reading the tiny font. We should say she does have two eyes.

She does, and I think she's got perfect vision, and she doesn't appear to need to wear the spectacles, yet. So she's got my tiny edition and I've ordered a really big edition. So it's yours normal size. It seems normal size print. I'm thrilled with it. Rather a nice looking little paperback. And I'm already quite invested.

So I'd forgotten how there's something about the style of Neville Schuett's writing that I don't know you're just right in there. I love it. It's straightforward. It's really, really straightforward. It's a sort of almost Lee Child kind of feel to it. Is it?

I'm a right. I think you're absolutely spot on. And don't you just breathe a science? have relief because it's just like I can do this. Yeah. There's no trickery here. There's a brilliant book that was recommended to us that I read at Christmas and actually I did really like it so I gave it to a couple of people. It's by Virginia Evans

called The Correspondent. Oh, no, I've got that but I haven't read it yet. So it's really, really good but it is written in the form of correspondence, letters, emails, so there are lots and lots of different people sending stuff to each other and you've got to follow the plot within it. It's a very good book.

It's really challenging. It's like being a humanity student going into a physics lecture. You know that there's stuff in there that you really should be able to understand and it will be good to understand but it is quite hard work and by the end of it I did think

great book but fewee. So Neville shoot as a chaser brilliant. It's a literary chaser. I've never really understood chasers. If you have, let us know. Should we give the email address one more time? This is a... Chaser is a

when you have a whiskey with a pint or something? Yeah. I think that's really... Why do people do that? Just to get drunk quicker? I guess. Does it have to be a pint? Well, that's right.

I don't know about chasers. My understanding was just that if you had a shot of something strong, you chased it with something that wasn't so disgusting to wash away the taste. Oh, so it's the other way around? That's what... I mean, that's how we do chasers at the parties. Well, listen, what can we say here?

We've asked some questions. Butter dish, chasers. It's all in this edition. This is a revelation. So when you say a whiskey chaser, that's identifying the beer rather than the whiskey. I always thought with you, Jane, I thought it meant the whiskey. Yeah. Oh. A milder beverage taken after a drink of liquor. Oh, totally. I'm bamboozled by that. But with that and the news about holes in teets earlier, I've had quite a week. Well, I've had quite a year so far, to be honest with you. Right. Do join us tomorrow for whatever this has been. We'll do some of it. Probably we will refuse yourselves. almost guaranteed on the podcast tomorrow. Take care.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio.

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