Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bank holiday means sun-drenched Tummy Time

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

If you were at university or school with Jane and Fi, come forth! We want to hear all about it.Jane’s sourced her emergency shorts, which can only mean one thing: there’s a heatwave coming. Jane and Fi chat God’s plan, the miracle of Peckham, sturdy bras, the side effects of Viagra, troublesome house rabbits, and splashback tiles. Plus, former alt-right political commentator and YouTuber Lauren Southern discusses abandoning the manosphere and the dangers of the internet. Lauren’s memoir is called 'This Is Not Real Life'. Jane and Fi are signing off for a long bank holiday of Tummy Time. They’ll reconvene on Tuesday. Our next book club pick will be a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri.  You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFOur new playlist 'Coiled Spring' is up and running: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4tmoCpbp42ae7R1UY8ofzaOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

We don't want to start slagging someone off, do we? Well, we just were. Welcome, anyway. It's off-air with Jane and Fee. I don't know, can you notice a difference in the sound quality today? What do you think? This is intriguing, isn't it? Because we are in the visualization studio, but you can't see us.

No. We can see each other. But we are here. But you won't be able to see us. So I don't know whether just being in a visualization studio with the possibility of visualization, a word that I hadn't ever really said before 20, 24, and now it would be in my top 10 most used words. I don't know whether it will make any difference

to just have this kind of possibility upon us. What do you think? I don't know. I'm just enjoying the image of our fire in the background still burning away, which in these troubled times is not, it's almost like a, it says a lot about the state of the world, doesn't it? The constantly burning fire? The constantly ever burning fire.

Yeah. And our weather forecast. Yes. Our weather forecast the next couple of days in the UK is really, really hot. And we had an interview yesterday, didn't we, about the consequences of Britain heating up. And it really, we just got to say it's so unusual to get temperatures over 30 Celsius in Britain in May.

And it's effectively sort of mid-ish May, isn't it? This isn't normal? It's not normal. And it will become normal, but then something else will find ourselves saying it's not normal to have whole weeks in the summer over 40 degrees. We definitely got to loop up our thinking quite a lot more because in the same breath we will be talking about where we can go to escape the heat, which will involve taking a plane, which involves using the fuel that is helping to make this country even harder to

live in. And on we go. And also during the interview, you were asking very sensible questions, if I may say so. What you were saying to the interviewee, remind me who that was. She was the chair of the Commons Climate Change Committee, of the parliamentary climate change. Whether or not in the South East, because we've just got such an extraordinary series of islands that we live on, where we do have different climates within a very, very small geographical location. So would there be a temptation for people who are living in what will become the hotter, wetter,

southeast of the country and possibly southwest, would it become appealing for people to migrate north? And of course, that's the argument you have to keep in your head when you're talking about global migration, because of course there are people who can't live anymore in 50 degree heat and their cattle have died. And the reason why many people have left their homes is because they literally cannot continue surviving there.

So I've gone deep very quickly And don't worry because we're going to talk twaddle later on Well, I'll go I'll go... But it's a microcosm of the macro problem, Jim. It is. It absolutely is. And I'll go less deep and just say that what I was saying was Should we all move to Scotland? Because there's lots of space in Scotland.

Loads of it. Loads of space in Scotland. And what kind of reaction did you get from the text as to that? A lot of people said, right, well, so all the Scots making a brilliant living in London, they can bugger off for a start. I thought that was a bit harsh. Would you like to live in Scotland? I think I remember going to the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow some years ago now. Great event.

And just thinking, I went out with some people who live in Glasgow just outside, about half an hour outside the city, in the most beautiful countryside. And I just thought, wow, you have got, this is a proper quality of life, because you've got an astonishing, vivacious, buzzy city half an hour away. But you also live in the... most beautiful countryside. I think you can say that about all of Scotland's major cities. It's amazing.

So quite often when you're walking around Edinburgh, if you look up from the pavement, you can see the hills and you can see the sea. It's incredible. It's really, really incredible. And I think North Berwick, which I'd never been to before we went to Fringe by the Sea, why would you be going again, Jane?

Do you know, we are? When are we going? I'm going to say it's August the 7th. I think you're right. But we can check up. I think it is August 6th. Tickets are available on the world. website.

North Berwick's another beautiful, oh my goodness. Engaging, lovely town. Yeah. That I'd like to explore more. Right. Were we halfway through an email? What do we go off on?

No, we haven't even started an email. Oh, good God. Okay. Do you want to crack on? Yes, this is just to say, Sarah, we've read your email. Yeah. You were right. We're not going to read it out.

We have read it. We've read it and we feel very much the same way. Very, very much the same way. We so hear you. Yep. you're very much heard. Unfortunately, you can't be seen. I can just allude to the contents by saying that

every one of us who's making a living in what you might call the public space, there will be people who know everything about what we were like at school, college, uni, whatever it might be, and they may choose at some point to come forth with their truth. I know, wouldn't that be dreadful? Yeah, it would be.

I was actually underlie. another part of Sarah's email because I completely agree about the type of people who take up time on this podcast shows, all kinds of things by comparison to the people who we can't quite get to anymore because there are other people standing in front of them. Oh, that's so coded, isn't it? I think we have, Sarah. Anyway, it was nice to hear from you. Shall we have an email from Richard? Richard is living in Willow Cottage. I won't give out any more of his details.

I wonder what his mother's maiden name is. Willow Cottage, though. I'm transported. It sounds delightful. Dear Joan and Phoebe, but it's a fee really, and it's very kind of you to say that because it's about house viewings. And I didn't know this.

So Richard, thank you for pointing it out. You can instruct your agent to either accept any viewing requests, except only those who are themselves on the market, except only those who can proceed, i.e. have an offer on their house. So you don't have to accept house hearings from people who are just looking, unless you want to be open all areas. And when you're ready to proceed, get the agent to verify the buyer's source of funds.

We had a cash buyer, and that's got inverted commas around it, who on the day of exchange was found to have no money. What? And getting all the way down the line. So you can just say I'm a cash buyer without proving it. What is the definition of cash buyer? Well, it's someone who doesn't have a mortgage. So, you know, for ages, I thought you just had to have bundles of cash. Literally, the cash.

Sometimes, Jane, I really marvel at how you've got to your great age in a world of normality with these very odd things unanswered. I'm quite literal. Who would have, I mean, let's say in London, 375,000 pounds for a studio flat. For a studio flat. In cash. In bundles of cash. A criminal. Well, exactly.

Exactly. And that's not us, is it? So Richard, thank you for that. And I obviously just wasn't really paying attention at the beginning of the process. So I'm going to go back and review my options. Now, we've had lots and lots of emails and good thoughts from you on the subject of appearance,

what to say to young people about appearance. One aspect I haven't thought of, I won't read out the email, but from a listener who said that their daughter had really struggled with mental health and had had quite severe depression. And one of the ways in which our correspondent knew that she was having a tough time was that she began to take no interest in her appearance.

And really, I hate to use the expression, but had let herself go, which is one of those awful expressions usually associated with women of my age. So she taught her daughter's lack of interest in the way she looked as a warning sign that she was feeling really rotten. Now, that was an aspect of all this I hadn't thought about. Other people say, if you say one thing to your daughter, you must say the same thing to your son. Other people say, you know, nobody ever praised my appearance growing up,

and I really love to praise my children's appearance now because I really felt that emptiness in my life when I was young. It's such a complicated area. I did like this point from Polly in Northamptonshire. Just be careful about what we say to our children, compliment them on the things that are important to them, not you. And I do think that's significant. Watch them.

and help them identify their strengths and weaknesses, but also do tell them when they look good, but maybe in a way that's congratulating them on doing well at looking after themselves, whether that's physically, emotionally or intellectually. I'd always rather be complimented on something that I'd achieved because I've achieved it and not how I look, because that from a parent seems more like a compliment to themselves

and their genetic input than anything else. I've got two teenagers, and I think that parenting, like all, relationships actually is about careful communication, but then that's a whole other email. Polly says very generously, she's not sure how she survived without the podcast. Well, you were okay. You were okay, but not as good as you are now. Thanks to us.

No, that's terrible. If you say so yourself. I thought the bit earlier on in her email was interesting as well. My husband and I are due to go to a heroes and heroines themed party later this summer. I told my mother I was planning to go as Frida Carlo. Her response was, oh, darling, no, you're far too beautiful for that. Let someone ugly go as Frida Carlo. And our correspondent has quite a few examples of a mum who emphasised her beauty above everything else.

And I think that is complicated in your adult life, as we've seen. And actually, we have had some emails too, saying be very careful to us. that life is a breeze when you're attractive? No, because you can be vulnerable to all sorts of stuff. Very, very vulnerable. And actually, we might save those for Monday's email special because we've had a couple that have really made me think, actually, about that assumption being true.

And it's there in Penny Lancaster's life, actually, isn't it? It was one of the points that she was trying to make in her book that people assume her great beauty. and she is really, really, you know, stop and look in the street, beautiful and statuesque. But with an attractive personality to boot. Yes, but also it attracted just the worst kind of attention when she was younger.

And because she's very tall, she had a body that made men really think she was older than she was and therefore might want to be on the receiving end of the attention that they wanted to give her. So I think it is a very, very complicated issue and we will return to it on Monday. The Voice of the Gods reminded us it's a bank holiday Monday. Yes, it is.

And we will be lounging around. You might even be, would you be having exposed to the sun tummy time? It's interesting you mention that. I have found my emergency shorts. I have isolated them. Dear God. And I've even this year invested it in a baseball cap. I do not want to see you ever.

will be available for 500 pounds in cash. So that is your only fan site, isn't it? Emergency shorts and a baseball cap. Are you wearing the baseball cap forward facing, backward facing to the sign? I don't kid myself. I can get away with backwards facing. I think if I were to go out promenading in East West Kensington

on back Colorado Monday, but I think I probably would be arrested and with good reason. Okay. We've ordered our paddling pool, which will last because of the cats, they don't last very long. because of the cat. The cats get in it. Because the cats just, you know, they, they, one claw and it's, it's gone.

Oh. So unless you're one of those very, very diligent people who deflates your paddling pool, it's an inflatable one. Yeah. Every night and cleans it and puts it away somewhere. Gosh, some people must do that. Well, presumably, but ours, they do tend to fail quite a lot. Just to nail this.

This is for the cats. No. Oh, I wasn't sure. No, it's a paddling pool for us. But the cats just ruin our paddling pools. Hence I had to order a new one for this summer. Because the last one did have to go to the dump. And I'm sorry about that, everybody, because it's plastic.

Because plastic, yeah. Okay. Right. Well, you're doing your bit for the planet. Not really. No, but we both acknowledged we could do more. At least you've ripped up your easy grass. Yeah, that's true.

I still look with shame on mine. That's true. But the hard standing is absolutely covered. in bird shit. Oh, why is it? I forget. I've lived in the same house for 25 years. Every single May, the birds eat fruit and then crap all over the mini.

Yep. And they've done it again. And it's very difficult, isn't it? They're eating black currents. Is it black currents? No, I don't know where they're getting them from. They're not out yet black current. But it's the black current shit, isn't it?

It is. That's what it is. And it stains. It's very, very dark, very difficult to get off. It's everywhere. Yeah. It's gusting. And I don't know, I mean, presumably it was easier to just spread off the astro turf.

I mean, it's really, it's really digging in. I mean, it looks, my hard standing is now looking a little bit like the Farn Islands. Okay. Well, you could get David Attenborough down. Make a documentary. I should think he's still having a kip after his birthday party at the Royal Albert Hall. Poor bloke. Being made to stay up that late.

God, I hope I don't make it to a hundred and get a garland. Note to self, just in case anyone's thinking, you know, a 100th anniversary celebration of either Jane or I, 3pm would be fine. Oh no, until 3.30. But, yeah, no, no later than 7. Good God. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Now, we've got an interesting guest today.

We have already talked about Lauren Southern, haven't we, who is going out in this edition of the podcast. You spent time, I'm going to say quality time, with a very interesting American yesterday. Now, just wet people's appetites. They'll be able to hear this very soon. Well, this is going to go out as our Friday bonus edition, and it's, I never know how to say this, Jane, correct me,

you think I'm wrong, pastor of an American church. Okay. And it's one of the fastest growing church congregations in Washington. And it is an evangelical church with very, very conservative elements to it. One of the worshippers is Pete Hegsseth. So that was really the pull for talking to Pastor Doug, who is involved in Pete Hegss's pastoral care. Goodness me. We talk about that.

but the church is very backward-facing and I think wrong. Unlike my baseball cap. Yep. It regards, well, it has three categories of sinners. There are many others, but the ones that we talk about in the interview. Gay people. I mean, just wince when you want to. Feminists and women who've had abortions.

They're all sinners. Yep. So Pastor Doug and I have a situation. solid conversation. Do you? We do. I mean, it's appropriate in the week of the miracle of Peckham that we're ending with a pastor. I don't know how to say it either.

Have you seen the, what's that thing that keeps popping up on my substack? If you're meant, no, if it's God's will that a woman gets pregnant, it's God's will that your dick is limp. Ban Viagra. Say that again. What? If it's God's will. Yes. I need to get this right.

If it's God's will that a teenager gets pregnant, it's God's will that your dick is limp, ban Viagra. Oh, I see what you mean. Okay, so it's all part of God's plan. Yeah, well, it's all in God's plan. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah. It's really funny. It really amuses me that there are so few side effects linked to Viagra. There must be loads. I mean, there's obviously one, very considerable one. But isn't it interesting that it just seems to be absolutely fine? Fine for them. Yeah.

I mean, and also actually, you went serious earlier, and I'm just going to say this week, some of the news out of Afghanistan is always terrible. But this week, the news that girls of nine can be married. I mean, I know there's often talk that we in the West do nothing about the women and girls of Afghanistan. And all we really can do is just occasionally reference. Oh, I think we're trying to more than occasionally.

Well, yeah, the heinous stuff that is going on there. Yeah. But do you know what, Jane, all of the backtracking on women's rights should be concerning to men as well as to women. And, you know, there is something kind of vaguely amusing about the conversation that I have with Pastor Doug because, you know, he's just so, to me, wrong, bonkers, can't find the right question. can't quite back things up. You know, you end up doing a kind of a slight fencing match of an interview. But at the heart of it is an absolute belief that women deserve less than men. An infuriating, nasty, pedantic, patronising, dangerous view.

Did you like him? I hated him, as you will be able to tell by the end of it. And because he felt it was okay, I mean, to regard me as a sinner, How can it be a sin to want women to have equality? I mean, there's all kinds of nonsense that comes out in the interview. But more and more people are heading towards the pews in his church. And it's people. It's not just men. No, it's not just men.

His church is quite big on campus. You know, it comes from the same place as the attraction of Charlie Kirk. And all of those things, to your point about the young girls, the girls of Afghanistan, they have a knock on effect. They silence women's voices. But it shouldn't only be women who don't want nine-year-old children to be kidnapped and raped. And that's what marriage means. That is not marriage. Actually, I shouldn't say marriage because it's not marriage.

It's a joke, isn't it? That's not what we're talking about at all about the abuse of children. But it's all there, isn't it? It's painting the world using a different power. But what really sickens me is that we can't say we didn't know because we do know. Yeah. We're just not doing anything. Yeah.

But we're doing very little. But if the only people we can challenge are the people who will agree to come on and be challenged because, you know, the men in charge of Afghanistan. We're not going to get through to the Taliban. They're not going to come on our program. But we should always invite the men who want to accept the invitation onto our program to talk about why they're doing what they're doing. Because they shouldn't be allowed to just go on with their work in private, really.

Oh Lord. Yeah. They'll come for us, won't they? Anyway, so that will be out tomorrow, Friday. It will. And don't be put off and think, oh my God, it's a bank holiday weekend, the sun's shining, I don't want to darken. Well, listen before it gets hot. Just, you know, have a listen to it.

Pop it in your back pocket. And, you know, you don't have to react to it. You don't have to get angry. You don't have to do anything. But let's just know that those people out there roaming the planet and let's give them some air time from time to time just so we know what we're up against. Emma has got a new job. Oh no, Evelyn, I do apologize.

It's Evelyn. Your words of wisdom have helped me before. Gosh. She says she was made redundant late last year, has quite quickly found a new job in a different industry. That turned out to be awful. So after a couple of grueling months, the hunt resumed, and I got another better position adjacent to what I was doing before, started the new job last week,

and my imposter syndrome is raging. I have convinced myself I'll fail miserably. I can't do the job and everyone around me, well, they're all geniuses. I don't think it helps that me and my partner have also been going through fertility treatment and trying to buy our first small home. Oh my God, you have got so much going on. It feels like there's such a lot hinging on me, making a success of this new role in what is a frightening job market.

Any advice from fellow listeners, how do you navigate the first few months in a new job while panicking? best of luck to you and just own how much you're going through at the moment. That is a lot. Just because the last job wasn't right for you and things were a bit rubbish doesn't mean that you've lost all your abilities and that you won't be able to shine in this job. But it just takes a while, doesn't it? It's going to take time to adjust.

It really is. I mean, you and I know how long it took us to feel completely comfortable in this bizarre environment. Do you what, Jane, I was thinking about that, only this morning. and it did take a good for me I'd say a good year Oh at least yeah Yeah was it the same for you Yeah I would definitely longer than that I would think

And you're slightly on It's not that you're on tippy toes And it's a slightly weird job as well isn't it Not at all On day one You've got to burst on air And sound very, you know There's no kind of I'll just sit behind my computer

For a week or so And look busy And yeah and brew up to it So I mean that I think if you listen to those early shows that we did, you'd know that it wasn't great and we weren't feeling completely at ease. But it does take a very long time.

When you've got something in your locker as big as fertility treatment going on as well, which will change sometimes... The way you feel. Yes. You know, you're asking a lot of your hormones with all of the things that you're being injected with and what have you.

And the timetable that you're on, I really admire you. That is just a lot on your plate. And I wonder whether it's the kind of workplace. I completely understand you probably don't want to make it public knowledge what you're doing with strangers. But is the some kind face already emerging where at least somebody knows that there's quite a lot going on

when you go home? Because I think sometimes all you need is just a knowing look and a bit of a wink. Yeah, someone who takes it all in for you. whatever sees you. So I hope you can find somebody like that. But also, do remember, they hired you because they wanted you. You were...

Good point. You were the person they wanted. So you've got that in your locker. Keep thinking about it. Yeah. And you can be somebody slightly different in a new job as well, can't you? Like any stage in life, wipe the etch of sketch, off you go again. Buy a couple of sturdy new bras.

That's what I'd do. Okay. How is your bra search going? Do you know what? I know. I know I've said this. It is time for another fitting. I remember I went.

It's just not. I went at this time last year on another really hot day. Did she? It was miserable experience for everyone involved, to be honest. So I need to find cooler times. Okay. Isn't there a very well-known high street store that has said now that they're only going to do brafittings just by looking? There's no more tape measure action going on.

Well, yeah, but they do that at the magic place. Rigby and Pella, they don't measure you there. No, but they're very, very... They just take them all in. very, very specialized. But I was surprised that the big chain isn't doing it anymore. Because I thought that was one of its greatest selling points

that they actually grapple with you. Yes, yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, look, whatever works for them. I guess they've probably, it's probably more time consuming to measure, isn't it? And they've got money to make. Well, yes, I hope it's not that.

I hope it's also not the march of kind of HR. Oh. You know, because there are sometimes in your life where you do have to be a little bit woman handled. Yeah, you do. And it's fine. Yeah. It's fine. I think bra fittings are one of them.

I don't want somebody just look at mine and come out with a numb. I want the backup of a tape measure chain. Otherwise, I just not quite sure what's going on. Look, it's a strange calling, but I'm very glad that somebody has heard it. I will say that it's always worked for me. Jane says She's Jane of Rudgewick of course Many of you will know Jane of Rudgewick

How very astute of you in your thoughts of medieval Rudgewick she says I actually live In a 500-year-old former agricultural labourist cottage Wow On the 11th of May You talked about cats' enjoyment of cream and yoghurt I once had a house rabbit Who would come and join my husband and I

In the lounge of an evening After dinner my husband would go out to the kitchen To make our coffee And once a week my dear dad would come and join us for dinner. On those evenings, the rabbit would agitatedly hop about on the arm of the sofa nearest the door of the lounge, waiting for my husband to return with our coffee. The rabbit somehow knew the coffee would be accompanied by the few squares of Cadbury's chocolate that my dad always brought with him as a treat for everyone. I've had three other house rabbits,

and I think the additional stimulation, love and care of living in close proximity with humans developed their intelligence. Shout out to Fern, Bramble, Bracken and Poppy, who all lived to a good age and a much missed. Jane, thank you. Where do you stand on the house rabbit? I mean, you've got enough going on, but would you consider it?

No, we had a lodger who had a pet giant rabbit, and I found it a troubling presence in the home. Did you guess? I don't think I've heard about the house rabbit. Name? God, I can't remember. No, it's probably not fair. confidentiality-wise to name it.

I think it would be unfair. A really lovely, lovely lodger. And the lodger said, I'm coming with a habit. With a house rabbit. Well, a habit. Probably had some habits. I think it was a feature that was added on afterward agreed that she was renting the room. But I didn't mind.

I mean, you can't be a pet lover, but only love your own pets. So it was fine. I don't know about that. We had to keep the cats obviously very, very, very firmly apart. Why, what would happen? The giant rabbit, the cats would be terrified. Oh, would they, okay, the rabbit, the rabbit attack a cat? Yeah, but it was huge.

Yeah, but it wouldn't attack a cat. No, but the cats didn't, they didn't know that. They might have a heart attack. Oh, they're all of them. And, but I just didn't, I just don't, it's not for me. I like an animal that you can really stroke and pick up and cuddle and, or take for walks and be very outside. For me, the bunny's not, it's not quite taking all the boxes. where do you stand on pet rabbits, Jane?

I take a firm line. I have to be honest, to our correspondent, Jane of Rudgewick, I would be against a house rabbit. And I speak from a position of ignorance, and they could be absolutely adorable. There was a woman in our locality who was very, very famous for walking her pig in the park. And she...

I'm more on board with a pig. Are you? Yes, because you can go outside and take it for a walk. What do you... Well, I mean, come back in, Jane from Rudgewick with more detail about... the allure of the pet rabbit. I also don't believe for one moment

that they can train themselves to only leave their bunny balls in one particular part of a room. You're talking about droppings there? Yes, I'm still finding them from many moons ago. You can probably take them to the Antiques Road Show. Upstaging the bride.

This is brilliant. Have you seen this one? I like this. On Bank Holiday Monday, we're attending my son Fergus and his partner Molly's wedding at Lambeth Town Hall. Well, I hope it's a sensational determination. The weather looks amazing and we wish them all the best. The theme is upstage the bride. I tell you what, I admire the bride there.

Yep, isn't that brilliant? That's actually, she's throwing the gauntlet down and saying, see what you can do. Yeah. And guests are encouraged to wear sequins, feathers, glamour, etc. My daughter is wearing a gold vintage gown with a scorpion headdress and I'm wearing a hat with dyed ostrich feathers. I'll send photos. Helen?

Do. Yep, we can't wait. And I hope it's a magical day for all involved. Can we do a couple of share ads? Dawn. If that's okay. This is Kate, who's a very long time, listen, a very occasional emailer. I've just made sure I've got all the playlist downloaded

because I'm embarking on a major challenge on Saturday. Kate is going to walk from Richmond Park to Brighton, a 100 kilometre continuous walk over 24 hours. Is that possible? I won't be alone. There are many other nutters taking part, her terminology, not mine, including some who are running in brackets. I don't understand them. When I practiced walking 50 kilometres a few weeks ago, the coiled spring playlist got me through the final hour. It was just the right amount of singing along motivation I needed, plus an internal dialogue about tracks.

wasn't keen on. The distraction from needing a wee, my feet hurting and wondering why I lived on a hill powered me through. I'll be seeking the same from all of the playlist this weekend during the wee small hours when I should be in bed. The beauty of the playlists has been I don't have to make the effort myself as the lovely evil Rosie have done all of the hard work. Thank you. My motivation for this bonkers endeavour is that two years ago I was suffering horribly with frozen shoulders and experience I know you can relate to fee. Both mine went. Luckily the second was bad by the time the referral for the first came through.

Injections and both sorted them, thank goodness. But I was determined afterwards to do whatever I could to stave off future chronic pain. Absolutely brilliant. So we wish you the very, very best of luck. And our music is your music. It's decided by the hive. We're all with you, Kate. You're absolutely right.

It's a daft thing to do. It will be hot, won't you? I know we've been very hot. Yeah, so actually there are lots of people probably signed up to all kinds of charity runs over the next couple of days. Just be careful. Hydrate. Very much so. Yeah.

Very much so. But oh my goodness, by the time you get over the hills of the South Downs, heading into the city of Brighton, you'll feel very proud of yourself. Well, you certainly should. Yeah. So good luck. We hope it's okay. Final one from me, anyway. Margaret Gallagher comes in with some detail about Barnes.

Yes. In defence of Barnes is fighting back, isn't it? Well, in a very polite way. It certainly is. It certainly is. You're right that there are some very posh. Please read entitled parts of what we used to call the village, Margaret tells us. My father was a met policeman stationed in Barnes from post-World War II to the 1960s when it had a police station. There was a very significant part of Barnes that was Council Estates, both per and post-World War II. This made the mix at local schools interesting

as many BBC staff and actors lived in the village. Can you tell them apart? There was also a healthy mix of local villains that my father talked about. It was a great location for somebody growing up in the 1960s. Walk across Hammersmith Bridge and London was there with all the glory of the music scene that was available in my case seeing the Beatles at the Hammersmith Odeon when I was 14 years old.

Gosh, I mean, fight something. I wonder if that was how much. her first gig. It could have been, couldn't it? Yes. Imagine that and you just walk over the bridge and you see the Beatles. In those days, they were a band called the Beatles,

but nobody knew they were going to be the Beatles. No. And every now and again, I think, what does Daff name it was for a group? And did they have options? I think they had other, yes, there were other, I can't remember any of them. Did they workshop on an away day?

I think they must have workshopped it. But it's just, it's a sort of punny name, isn't it? It's just really odd. Anyway, carry on. We were an exceptionally full. which I think many folk of my years forget. There is much more I could relay, but please think of this as a plea for mitigation for Barnes.

There are still some great pubs there, and a walk around the pond is always recommended, plus the river walks. Well, Margaret, thank you very much indeed for sending that. And I'm sure, you know, like everywhere in and around London, you know, times have changed, haven't they? And I think somebody wrote to us, didn't they, about a house that they had once lived in in,

in Barnes that they left a long time ago that they recently found out was worth six million pounds. Well, but that is not, that probably is exactly right. Did you, when you were talking about the charity run, was it Hannah that you were talking about? No, I was talking about Kate. Well, there's a Hannah doing the same one. What, the walk?

I don't know, I'm the weekend of the 23rd of May. I'm doing the London to Brighton 100KM. Yes. Oh my goodness, we'll get in touch with each other. And Hannah, Hannah is doing it in memory of her dad, raising money for the Stroke Association. there's every chance that around two in the morning, somewhere in the Sussex countryside,

exhausted and questioning my life choices while attempting to drag my legs over a style, it'll just be the two of you keeping me going. Number one, four, four, four, five, in case anybody else is off airing through the night. Well, Kate, look out for one, four, four, five. I had up so many congratulations to you for venturing out and doing this in memory of your dad.

I really, really hope it passes off okay for you. it just sounds really tough that doesn't it briefly back to barns jenny lived there in the 60s in early 20s shared an old Victorian and dilapidated house with six other girls we had a peach tree in the garden and honestly it was great fun it always even in those days attracted the rich and famous but also the bed sitters being an easy commute into central london and making for a really eclectic mix socially i loved it the bull public house on the river attracted the biggest names in the jazz world years later my daughter rented a house there with her new husband and I relocated there to a rental for a while

having returned from abroad. It was so wonderful to be reunited with my lovely barns briefly nearly 50 years later. The common were the same, the quaint high street. We both had to move on eventually, not being able to afford to buy property there. That's right, my old wreck of the Victorian property was by then worth six million pounds.

So that was the email. Six million quid. But did it have a... parquet slide into the cinema room and did it boast a tiled splashback i fear we'll never know uh but i suspect it will have had the splashback at least yeah but not the so the tile the parquet floor slide going into the cinema room i mean that's absolutely i thought about that that prick of a house we were talking about if a house can be a prick that one did sound like the most ostentatious prick imaginable Now 11 years ago when Lauren Southern was just 19, she made a video called Why I'm Not a Feminist,

and in it she detailed her belief that men were getting a bad rap. Women were not as put upon as many made out. There was more male rape in jails in America than rape of women outside jails. It made her the darling of the alt-right. She fitted the bill, blonde hair, happy to pose with guns and the stars and stripes, happy to make friends with the likes of Tommy Robinson. Her journey through the right-wing world of social media fame was huge. hugely successful but also often frightening. It got her into real trouble as you're about to hear.

She was and still is banned from this country for distributing offensive material. But fast forward and we now find Lauren living in a remote part of her native Canada, completely assuing her earlier beliefs about the power of the alt-right, divorced from a husband who she tried to please as a trad wife. She's written a memoir, this is not real life and has largely switched off from social media. Herz is a rare voice, one of regret about her previous powerful place in the online world. Now, just a warning that this interview includes discussion of religious issues, drug use and sexual violence, which may cause offence. And if you are affected by any of the issues, you can get in touch with feedback at times.radio. Lauren started by telling me a bit more about her background.

I was born in Surrey, British Columbia, Canada, and I grew up a pretty regular working class background aside from the fact that my dad worked in tech so we had computers in the house earlier than most people and was an avid Fox News listeners. So I went to school every day with, you know, Dennis Prager on the radio or Michael Savage or Sean Hannity in the background. So I kind of had a very political childhood in a strange part of Canada for that. You know, not a lot of people were listening to Fox News. Yeah, I grew up that way, and then 19 was when the internet kind of collided with my life. And tell us about that collision.

Yeah, I made a video on why I'm not a feminist for a channel called Rebel Media. They only were getting a few hundred views at the time on YouTube, so I didn't think much of it. I was an early political science student. I hadn't had many experiences in life with, you know, dating or interactions with a lot of men or even traveling. and I could not understand for the life of me what this hubbleau about men being all rapists or toxic masculinity or patriarchy was all about. And so I made a video saying,

I think this is all nonsense and not thinking very many people would see it, but I remember logging in the next day and refreshing YouTube and it had reached half a million views. And then it just kept climbing. And people took that video and uploaded it to Facebook and put translations on it. And it was getting 40,

million views on Facebook, you know, millions of views on other platforms. And basically overnight, my life completely changed. I had no idea that that was going to happen, but there wasn't really a going back after that. And what were the comments like? Were people uploading the video and sharing it because they were so surprised by it or because they liked what was in it so much? Well, I think at the time there was still a orthodoxy of mainstream media sources talking about things. The idea of there being political YouTubers wasn't really a thing. There were maybe one or two that had come about at that time. And like rebel media that I joined, they had just been created.

So all of these alt media companies were just in their first few baby steps. And I think the idea of someone, A, making these very strong points, on video that wasn't an elderly conservative talk radio host. And B, was a woman, was very shocking. It was, you know, it's not the first time that, quote-unquote, anti-feminist opinions had been said on air, but it was certainly the first time a millennial woman was saying them on air. And that colliding with the spark of political YouTube just was a powder keg.

Do you think that you were saying quite benign things about feminism? or were you saying quite inflammatory things about feminism? I think I got inflammatory as time went on. If you watch that first video, it's not necessarily inflammatory at all. I'm saying things like, I'm not a feminist because, you know, I think men are sexually assaulted too. They have very high assault rates when they go to prison. I'm not a feminist because men commit suicide as well.

And it was this very rudimentary view of what feminism is from a 19-year-old whose only exposure to it had been on Tumblr. Right? And then the data that I'm pulling from, these are just stats off Google that, well, true, are somewhat being misinterpreted, because once again, I'm not a datatician. I'm a 19-year-old that has grown up watching political media. And I know how to present them because I've watched a thousand Bill O'Reilly monologues. I know how to kind of portray something to get the crowd going, not intentionally, but just because I had been seeped in this environment my whole childhood. So it wasn't necessarily inflammatory, but it was leaving out half the story and from someone who didn't have the skill to properly analyze a whole picture of the data I was presenting. You essentially then became catnip for the manosphere, didn't you? How did you meet the kind of the major players? And I've read that you befriended Tommy Robinson. Is that the way that you would put it? You reached out to him or he found you? Well, he was working at the company. I I worked for Rebel Media and I lost my job there, but Tommy Robinson was still working for the

company. And I was visiting the UK and some of the videographers I knew there were working with him too. And so we met up at a pub and became friends for sure and made a few video content pieces together just kind of with right-wing opinions. It was very much like the ecosystem of any political sphere. It's mostly based on friendships and who you know and what's going on in the background, much more so than it is, whatever. the public perception is, all of it is kind of who's happy with you and who's not. That's how you're

going to get on shows. That's how you're going to get interviews. So the socializing and meeting all the characters part is part of the job if you're going to be a right-wing political commentator. And forgive me for a blunt question here, Lauren, but what is the to like about Tommy Robinson? Well, this is the thing. These people are very entertaining. Do you know, life of the party, The party keeps going on and on. It's, you know, one in the morning, let's go to the gay club. And I'm going to do a line of Coke. And like as a 20-year-old, it's very exciting.

Is it responsible? Is it necessarily the person I should be hanging out with? No, but, you know, my film crew was me, Kail and George, they were around my age. And then Tommy, who we kind of looked up to as this older figure within this media space, right, who had a background, understood it, had some respect, but also was introducing us to kind of this crazy world of fame and fortune. Because I didn't think that conservative media would be like that, but there really is this aspect of,

even though you're achieving it in a strange way, you've become part of the rich and famous, because you can make a lot of money doing political media, especially if you partake in the crypto scams or the fundraising scams. So what's the fun part of it? Well, you're literally hanging out with someone rich and famous that's got infinite energy to bring chaos into your life. And that was part of the making media, you know? It's confrontation.

You're getting into fights on the street. And you're convinced that you're saving the West at the same time, which adds this moral angle to it. We're creating chaos. Everyone's watching what we're doing. We're like little gods when we walk into the bar because people know who we are. and you're making a lot of money doing it. But you're clearly an articulate and intelligent woman, Lauren. So you would have known that within that bubble of chaos and excitement and whatever,

there would also have been moments for you to go, it's not great to go to a gay club and try and upset people who are simply living their life. It's not great to be completely and utterly whacked on coke and driving. and driving around shouting at people. I mean, it is true, wasn't it? You have been banned from the UK for distributing leaflets with Tommy Robinson that said that Allah was gay,

you know, which is an extremely offensive thing to say about somebody who has a massive place in people of that faith's heart. No one goes around making content with the opinion that they're, you know, the bad guy. even when I was doing like the allies gay thing I remember at the time there was an article that had come out in Vice News saying Jesus was transgender

and I grew up Christian so I figured well if you guys are going to say this then my response is going to be I bet you wouldn't do this about any other religion everything you did if you saw someone on the far left doing something crazier then it gave you infinite excuses to do the next crazier thing to compete with them and that is the nature of the YouTube Beast, as the content machine kept churning and one creator would go to a protest and get beat up,

another person would get arrested, or it became this competitive thing. Who can, yes, create news or opinion pieces, but now you also had to do it in the most chaotic and interesting way to stay relevant in the YouTube ecosystem, which has now just become unhinged levels of clickbait. But you don't realize you're doing it. you just get the feedback loop of the audience telling you, this is amazing, you're doing amazing, you're saving the world, da-da-da-da-da-da. Why would you question that?

When you're in that place, you genuinely couldn't hear the other voices of condemnation outside. It's not just that you can't hear the other voices of condemnation. The people who would tell you, hey, do you think this is a bit of an inflammatory way of approaching this? Don't you think there's something more healthy you could do? Those aren't even making it on your algorithm. You're not even seeing it. The comments you're seeing are, A, you are amazing, you're saving the West, and B, you should kill yourself.

You're horrible. And so why would you listen to your critics? You almost create this machine in your head that cancels out any criticism because you instantly assume this is someone that wants me dead. This is someone that hates me. This is someone, and you apply like that idea of, well, the vice journalist said Jesus was transgender. So all of my critics hate my background and my feelings.

faith. Why don't I show them what it feels like? But that's not all my critics. That's not. But the reasonable people are not commenting online. The normal people aren't sitting on Twitter 10 hours a day being reply guys. So we're not hearing from the reasonable voices when you are basing your opinion of the world on clicks and algorithms. You went to meet the Tate brothers. Can you tell us what then happened to you? Yeah. Tommy Robinson. said that he had a potential investor for a company we wanted to start. We were going to call it the front or something, and it was going to be a right-wing media outlet in the UK. The reason we wanted to create it was because we were having beef with Rebel Media, the initial company we both worked at.

And he said he had two investors in Romania, didn't really give us much information about them. Me, Kalin, and George, our film crew just showed up to the airport in Luton, and he gave us our tickets. And we got on the plane and flew out there. When we were going there, Tommy had gotten very high on drugs on the way, which was a bit absurd. But when we arrived in Romania, the Tate brothers, Andrew and Tristan, who are obviously world famous now, but nobody knew who they were back in early 2018 when I met them. They met us with their supercars, picked us up, and drove us to their compound eventually to have a meeting about this investment. And I kind of saw through this and I thought, I don't really know if these guys are actually planning on

investing. So I mentioned that and they said, okay, if we can make a deal here, we might still invest. But Tommy was very drugged out in this meeting. It ended up being, you know, by the time we had left, me, Kailen and George figured no one was going to give us money. When we got back to the hotel, though, they called and said, Lauren, if you come back, we might still be able to make a deal to fund your company because you're at least somewhat reasonable. Now, do I really think that they wanted to find a 21, 22-year-old girl and give her like hundreds of thousands of dollars. No, but I was, you don't think about that when you're that age. You think you are being taken seriously, you know? I go back and they eventually say, we're going to have the meeting at the

club. I say no, unless you bring Tommy, Kalen, and George. They assure me they're going to bring them. We go to the club and they just start doing shots. I have two drinks. Keep asking where Tommy Kaylin and George are. They never show up. They keep assuring me they're on the way. They never show up. And Andrew brought me back to my hotel. And then he assaulted me, essentially, strangled me. And the, you know, I didn't think much of it at the time because no one knew who he was. I just figured, wow, well, that sucks. But I was kind of poor decision making on my part. And if I say anything about it, it will probably destroy my career in the media apparatus. I literally was the voice of anti-feminism.

That's how I became famous. And it created this massive level of cognitive dissonance for me that has taken me years to kind of work through and eventually led to me publishing a book and joining the cases and talking about it all. And there's one phrase that you've used there, Lauren, that I hope you're almost using it ironically that you thought you had done some poor decision-making.

I mean, it's not that, is it? No woman should be strangled. by a man. It's not your decision-making, it's his. Oh, absolutely. But there is a level of kind of delusion that I was under where I thought I was the main character and I didn't have to be careful because the main character never, like the cameraman never dies kind of thing. Nothing bad can happen to me. I also had this delusional trust of men because of the sphere of media I was in. You know, it was, all the feminist warnings are wrong.

They're all delusional. They're all harpies. They all just hate men. There's nothing that could possibly be true about their analysis of the world. And so I could kind of act with impunity in ways that eventually led to, like, yes, well, it is the fault of the person

committing the crime, you know? That doesn't mean you leave your car doors unlocked. That doesn't mean you go out to the club in Eastern Europe with the men that may, that at the time I didn't think we're lying but are probably lying to you about their motives of why they want to go to the club. So there is this level of, yes, there are, you always have to apply the crime and the

malintent and everything to the person who is committing said crime. But we are in a cruel world. And that's where the combination of, I think, you know, feminism can go too far and saying the world just shouldn't be like this. And then anti-feminism can go too far and saying the world isn't like that. So basically, the place where feminism meets reality, is often a very uncomfortable place for an individual young woman to find herself in. How do we now find you in this place talking about your past in a very clear-sighted and

condemnatory way? What then happened? Yeah, so I published my book last summer and I stepped away. I didn't do a lot of interviews or any interviews when I initially published it because I I understand the psychological toll of the internet now. It's not a one-way looking glass. When you look into it, it affects you. It affects the way you think about yourself in the world. So I knew I'd have to step away.

And I published all the chapters about Tate for free because I knew immediately everyone would accuse me of doing it for money. Everything is very materialism oriented. So people cannot imagine anyone doing something just because they think it's the right thing. Andrew Tate came out and said he was going to sue me for everything I'm worth. Defamation case. I will know. It has now been nine months, maybe even 10 months since I published that.

And I've not received so much as a cease and desist. And when I followed up with his lawyer, McBride, where's my lawsuit? He blocked me on X. So I think this says some things. Tommy Robinson came out and said I was lying about the book because I do talk about some of his misadventures. I don't think he was very happy about that. He falsely claimed that I'd returned to Romania and was essentially dating Andrew Tate.

so I published, you know, travel documents that disproved that, and I haven't heard from Tommy since. But the thing is, you know, there were some people that read my book, and I think woke up to the fact that the ecosystem is very manipulated and that they have perhaps been lied to by some of these figures. But it wasn't like a wildly popular book. It was something that helped some people, and I'm proud of it, and I'm happy about it.

but no one wants to hear that it's fake. No, it's very easy to scam people. It's very difficult to convince people they've been scammed. No one wants to hear that the movement that they've tied their life to and their identity to for a decade, maybe even lost family and friends to, whether that be like very far left or very far right, is, you know, a scam to make money or a scam to get you ideologically captured for views. and you're not being given proper data and you're being sucked into clickbait.

No one wants to hear that because that means you're the idiot. But what I try to tell people in my book is I was the biggest idiot. Well, I think you're absolutely right, Lauren. It's an almost impossible thing to find the place where somebody who has got caught up in all of this ideology can then give themselves permission to say I'm wrong and head off in another direction. It's a very difficult human thing to do, but you have a child.

So what do you say to somebody to stop them from ever even embarking on that journey? How do we better inform the next generation about everything that you have lived through yourself? I think the most important thing is internet literacy. We're in a new singularity. We have a whole new world that our ancestors have not given us guidebooks for. There's nothing about the internet in the Bible. There are about human interactions. There's nothing in the internet in some of the greatest philosophy books that we read.

We are embarking in this whole new quest that we need to understand. And it's not about not having conservative beliefs. It's not about not having left-wing beliefs. It's about realizing that when these opinions go into the form of the internet or when people upload themselves to the internet, they can portray anything they want. This is where we edit ourselves into the version we want to be. It's almost like a video game. So you just have to be aware when you log in

that everything curated here doesn't necessarily reflect the real world. If you don't see it in your day-to-day life, if you can't shut off your phone and see examples of what people are talking about on X or on YouTube around you, you just, you can't, you cannot take it at face value. We're not getting rid of phones. I wanted to go, jokingly, unabomber,

and just not engage at all with, Twitter or the internet, but it is the public sphere. It's where people have to make their money and work. So we're not going to stop our kids from using it, but we can teach them not to believe the things they see here. How do we also get across the fact that the likes of Tommy Robinson and Andrew and Tristan Tate are a really vile manifestation of masculinity? And I mean, in some of those cases as well, they're just egypt. I mean, they're just really, they're actually just silly people.

They're silly, silly, silly, silly, silly people. I'd love that you say that because when you see these people in person, they look absurd. They're very, very silly people. They are, they feel like they're putting on a skit in real life all the time, and it's because they're performing for the internet 24-7.

They're performing for the accolades of hundreds of thousands of voices on their phone. So whenever you see influencers in real life, they're all sitting on their phone wondering, how many likes did I get on this post? And I think people are going to have to learn this, unfortunately, firsthand. Like, I do think there's going to have to be a lot of suffering

in people's relationships before, because I can scream into the wind. Like, they had dare programs at high school. This is why you shouldn't do drugs. But it's really, for a lot of people, it's not until they have a bad experience themselves that it begins to really click for them. But as there becomes this critical mass of young men,

who say, wow, I tried the Andrew Tate method for five years and I lost the love of my life. I could never date properly. My friends and families said I was going insane and that I was being rude. Slowly we're seeing more people wake up to this. I don't know how many times Tommy Robinson is going to be able to scam his audience. And here he is in his bus drinking champagne with pictures of his son flying on a private jet in like a $2,000 track suit, making fun of poor people. At some point, reality will clash with their delusions. And for me, it took a whole lot of pain before I was willing to accept it. And I fear that a lot of other, my hope is they'll read the things I read

and they'll be able to get out of it without too much pain. But unfortunately, people are going to have to see how these internet ideologies in some ways ruin their lives before they wake up, because we all just like learning things the hard way. So you are one of the rare people who can say, I just got it completely wrong. What is it in you that has enabled you to do that? Well, life keeps delivering you pain until you kind of learn the lesson you're supposed to from it, right?

And what an incredibly humbling experience that I've had to have been the girl holding up the, there's no rape culture in the West sign. You know, that is embarrassing. That is something that I wouldn't, you couldn't torture out of me at Guantanamo Bay had I not made the decision that life is better lived telling the truth because I'm going to be around the people. I want to be. If I tell the truth, I'm not going to feel like I hate myself every day because I have this cognitive dissidence of saying things I don't believe if I tell the truth. It's going to be hard. I'm going to lose a lot, but I'm going to move in the direction I truly want to be going if I just tell the truth. There's been enough. And there's been a lot of things that the hubris and ego of a young girl that went viral has kind of, I have to grapple with now that I'm 30 and have lived more. And most people don't live these experiences in the public eye. There are a lot of people who turn 30 and look back and think, wow, I went on a crazy path, but it's just never for the public to consume. And I resent that sometimes because I think, why should I have to grow up in the public eye? Why should I be held accountable for all the things I said at 19? But the truth is, you know, I don't get to have the going viral at 19 without the crash out at 30 where I have to live with the consequences

of that happening. That's Lauren Southern. We approached Tommy Robinson and Andrew Tate for comment. We are yet to receive a response. In a previous statement, Tate's lawyer, Joseph McBride, said Lauren Southern was lying through her teeth, accusing her of textbook extortion. He said she was weaponising previous consensual encounters for financial gain. Lauren's memoir is called This Is Not Real Life. We know that you'll have thoughts about all of that. Do get in touch with us.

We're Jane and Fee at times. It is worth just mentioning a couple of things. We had to run the interview past the lawyers here because Lauren talked very honestly about her experiences along the way in the manosphere and that involved some time that she spent with some of the major players. And some of the things that happened, that we aren't able to broadcast, apart from anything else,

because the Tate brothers are facing charges for some of their behaviour that would come under UK law. don't ever want to contribute to contempt of court because what that means is you can jeopardise somebody's fair trial, the trial can get thrown out. So you can be the one responsible for somebody not having their... Your intentions may be right, but it all ends up horribly wrong. The process of justice works in very detailed ways. So it's worth noting all of that. Any thoughts? We'd very much welcome your response to that conversation. And indeed, anything else that has crossed your...

Crossed? Your... Your conscious and subconscious mind. I think it's time for a little lie down. Or a biscuit. I think it might be time for my sugar boost. But if you are doing any kind of charitable endeavour, wow. Good luck over the weekend. We will regroup on Tuesday.

We're proud of you. Take every care. Where your sunblock. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this,

us live, and we do do it live every day, Monday to Thursday, two till four, on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale, and if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.