Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Battling with a secret rucksack fetish (with Claire Powell)

Episode Date: July 16, 2026

Jane's hungover, so Fi is having to do some serious heavy lifting to decipher what she's trying to say. They cover organised fun, urinal cakes, dangerous trousers and airport lost property. There's also talk of them heading off to the UAE to exhibit some schnitzel... Plus, author Claire Powell joins them to discuss her new book 'All In'.You can buy tickets for Fringe by the Sea: https://www.fringebythesea.com/off-air-with-jane-fi-and-special-guest-jan-ravens/Our book club pick is a collection of short stories! 'Interpreter of Maladies' is by Jhumpa Lahiri. You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur most asked about book is called 'The Later Years' by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producers: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's just such a It's such a lesson in mentality, isn't it? We're having an in-depth conversation here talking about sport psychology. This is absolutely lovely. We're in a different studio today. I don't know whether it'll make a difference to our output, but we're in a much more newsy studio.

Be it, be, be, be, be, big, be, Ron Burgundy. Very but pretty much. Very but quite pleasant. Eve says, don't worry if you sound tinny. Right, okay, she's back, as you may have gathered. She'd been to France. No sign of any gifts as yet, but I live in hope looking, no, it doesn't look very hopeful.

I don't think that's happened. She was on a holiday where there was some organised fun. How are you with organised fun? Well, what do you think? I can't stand that sort of thing. You know, I do hear about, I've got a friend who often goes on these, a little bit like Eve's trip, these very, very over-organized family fun occasions. Well, there's a timetable of events.

I mean, just bog off. I bet they have a cup, especially in Grave Cup. Yeah, all that sort of thing. You know, we're going to play croquet at Hoppers 4, and then there'll be the super quiz. Oh, just no, no. No, do you like organised fun? I don't like organised fun, do you?

I don't. But do you what, I do you have to dig deep when I find myself in places where there is organised fun because people are just put so much effort into it. I feel so bad. And the grump in the corner going, I just want to read my Elizabeth Strout by the pool. Would that be okay? That's my idea of a holiday.

Yeah, but some people get so much from it, don't they? Well, they can go away with each other. Good and good for them, Jane, but no. I don't know what it is. For me, I've always thought it just reminds me a little bit too much of school. You know, the competing for things thing. I just genuinely don't want that in my leisure time, actually. Well, I would make the case that you cannot organise fun.

that's a very good point to make that is a very good point to make which brings us on to football to the sad events well we were just saying actually that we're both feeling quite relaxed today because all the hope is gone and that's good

I slept really well last night it was over yeah it was well and truly over so we were just saying well two things of merit in a sea of babble about football which by the time you get to listen to this you may have had enough in which case I'd say fast forward

about three minutes. But we talked to John Barnes, didn't we, on the programme? You did a fantastic interview with him before the World Cup started. And he said in his very John Barnes way, how would you describe him? He's... Tassetan. Yes, Tastartan. He's quite clipped in his responses. England legend, we should say. Very much so. Always worth hearing from. And he did tell us in that interview. And he was very, very honest about his prostate cancer. And I think a lot of people appreciated his honesty. But when he was asked, will England win the World Cup? What was it, he said? He said we're about the fourth or maybe the third best team in the world, so we won't. And what we will do is we will make it to maybe position number four or position number three if we're very lucky.

And that's where we should be. Yeah, that's where we are. That's our standing. That's what's happened. And he was absolutely right. But you also said earlier that you think there's a problem with our, what is it? It's our arrogance. The English arrogance that somehow this game.

is ours. Belongs to us. And yeah, we have some divine right to win stuff. We don't. No. Clearly we don't. So it hurts us. And I fully understand that other nations will have massive disappointment about not making it through. But I don't think it's the same kind of it's been taken from us. A crime has been committed. A sporting crime in the fact that we haven't won, which just leaves people with a really weird combination of pain and resentment. It's quite a toxic combination. Yeah. And as a person, you know, I'm not hugely sporting and I didn't grow up watching football either. So I'm outside of that tribal DNA feel. So actually what I want to get from

sport doesn't end with that feeling, Jane. I don't want that feeling. I do you know, I think that have been some positives over the last couple of weeks. And I was going back home on the on the tube last night from work. I would say 10, 15% of people on the train were in England shirts or England regalia. Women and men, very ethnically diverse, just as the team are, actually. And that is a massive change. And for me, it's a massive positive. That brand, the England brand is not toxic anymore. Everyone is welcome. Everyone can dream of playing for England and representing England. And I think that's great. And it's lovely to see the pubs full of young people, kids in their 20s, slightly older. Again, really, really diverse, getting together

to cheer England on. And that is something that I embrace. I think that's lovely. I think you're right to point that out. So we shouldn't be too down about it. The last time that racism was really directed at the England squad after the bad penalties which took us out. Yes, that was the Euro.

Oh, I don't know. The what's it of whenever the last year it was. When it was it was, we didn't. We're 24. Anyway, whatever it was. Yeah. The backlash against it was one of the most heartening things, wasn't it? Yeah.

because people just thought this is not us and we don't want this. Yeah, we're not in that camp. I really, really. So you bugger off. I hope that never, ever happens again. So look, and also I do object to this business, England, don't win anything. The women have. We've got to keep saying that as well.

So anyway, Euros for the chaps in a couple of years, the World Cup for the Women, fingers crossed next summer. You never know. Yeah. And who do you want to win the World Cup and will you watch the game now? Oh, 100%. I'll watch the final and of course I want Spain to win. I thought you don't get me started on bloody Argentina. Well, they were nasty last night.

They were sloppy. They were very sloppy. Niggly. Yuck! They were very pushy, shabby. No, don't like them. Don't want them to win. Come on Spain.

Okay. Let's all have some car. Actually, I won't have any carbon after last night. Let's all have, what's a Spanish non-alcoholic beverage? Water. Nice glass of water and some tapas. Come on Spain. Okay.

Are they chicken shaped? Now you're in trouble, Jane. You are in trouble. This one comes from Rachel. He says, oh, Jane, Fee, you can't let her off this easily. If she's going to try the schnitzel, she needs to have it in Austria or Germany to ensure she has the best. Surely the Times has a budget for this. You're sincerely, someone who lived in Munich for a year and cannot bear to hear, Jane, compare a schnitzel to a chicken nugget, or pretty much. Despite this, I love you both so much. I can't imagine a Monday to Thursday. stay without you. Carry on. Oh, okay. Well, there's everything there. Oh, by the way, don't you, thank you for that. I knew it really wasn't chicken shaped in the best restaurants. Although I think it would be nice. You get a nice bit of fillet steak in the shape of a cow. Would it put you off? No, but it wouldn't draw me to it. Okay. Right. There was something really important. I'm sorry, I am a little bit hung over today. Not perhaps, I'm edging towards six out of ten, Fee. Okay. Do you want me to try and finish that train of thought? It was something. Something about a schnitzot.

Shall we coat you in breadcrumbs and deep fry you? See what happens? I might be nice. Let's move on to Centalina, which we mentioned last week when you were away. This is an interview with Chatterbox Luke Jones, ace podcaster. And if anyone... If somebody dropped out. He won't like that.

He's very perky, as Luke. He's very perky, but he's in the building. I mean, that's interviewing our own. That's cannibalism. Yeah, it kind of is. He's got, it is seriously, it's a good podcast seriously time called the Surgeon of Scent Helena. And Anne says, I was delighted to hear you talking about Scentalina Island last week because my mom is a saint. And if you are a native of Scentalina, that's what you're called. You're called a saint.

Honestly, actually, in fairness to loop, it was not a part of the world I knew anything about. And it was riveting, hearing about what went on. It's a British overseas territory. But the truth is that the islanders are treated with a degree of contempt. by Britain. I think that's certainly what many of them feel. I have been to the island twice, Cisanne. Once before the airport, and that was on the RMS Centalina, and once flying in from Johannesburg,

it is truly like nowhere else you have ever been. My mum became a teacher on the island at the age of 14, and her father was the butler at Plantation House in the 1940s. They live nearby, and my mum fondly remembers taking rides on Jonathan the Tortus, back when he was just a young whippersnapper and says she really loves the pod. Thanks for everything. Well, don't thank us, and thank you for listening and for responding. And Jonathan the Tortus is still with us.

That's incredible. It is a bit weird because I think some people think it's a fake. It's not the real Jonathan because I think Jonathan is now 135 or something. And every now and again, a story pops up about Jonathan having sex, which I don't think anybody wants to hear. Well, we've interviewed the vet who looks after Jonathan. We did. Yeah, we did.

On the program. Yes. So he's still very much with us. As we should say, is Larry the cat, the Downing Street. You know my thoughts on that. Well, I know you think it's a fake Larry, don't you? Well, I think it's a replaced Larry. Well, I think Larry is due to welcome his, what is it, 19th Prime Minister here in the UK on Monday.

And Andy Burnham is not going to move into number 10 with his family, is he? He said right at the start that he would be going back to his home in Manchester. every weekend. So Larry's going to be very lonely. Yes, I think maybe we'll have a kind of rotor. I've remembered what I was trying to say earlier. Oh, good. You've received a knitted object on the post.

Oh my goodness, thank you for jogging my memory. Thank you enormously to the Isle of White branch of the Greyhound Trust. They had a tray sale of knitted greyhounds, and they have sent me the brindle with the red collar rendition of what turns out to be Nancy. It wasn't knitted to look like Nancy,

but that is absolutely what Nancy looks like and that's what Nancy wears. Right, lovely. And how is Nancy in the heat? Not good. Not good at all. So I do worry about her. I worry about her every day because she's really, really beautiful,

but she's incredibly thick. So she will go and lie in the sun. She just goes to lie in the sun and she's not very good at then working out where she needs to go in order to cool down. So I've left lots of little cool places around the house with different favourite blankets or beds in. And she's got a daybed in the garden as well that she can get to.

But no, I do worry. I think we all do about our pets, don't we? How's Dora? Well, actually, she elected to stay outside this morning when I came to work. We did have a bit of a Dora-related emergency earlier in the week when I got back from work. I just simply couldn't find her. I mean, she was nowhere. She wasn't in the garden.

She was nowhere to be seen in the house. I did that thing where I tried to get her attention by shaking her dreamies. We've all done it. Still, nothing happened. Shaking dreamies. Did it quite vigorously. I then called her name. And then I bawled her name and still nothing.

And then about half an hour into this and it was becoming incredibly tense. I'd already composed a message for the family WhatsApp group to announce the departure of our much-loved. After half an hour. Much-loved 40 quid from a rescue centre tabby. Sorry, she's gone, she's left, and went upstairs, opened my wardrobe, and there asleep. On top of a very infrequently used rucksack was the aforementioned Moggie. God, was it the rucksack from the interrailing? It was.

It was like Antiques Road Show might want to see that show. It was, it could be ridiculous. I'm sure I might have mentioned this before. It was the rucksack. I unaccountably brought for myself at the very beginning of COVID. I don't guess you're going to make a run for it where. Go to the hills. I don't know.

I've never used it again. That doesn't surprise me. But I think maybe the hive could send in suggestions of where you could use the rucksack and how. So in the meantime, Dora just crept into the wardrobe. She'd just got to sleep in the wardrobe. But the door was shot. Boogie. And she'd been there for nine and a half hours fee

in temperatures that will not, I mean, they won't have been below 27 Celsius inside that wardrobe, I don't think that day. It's just weird. Weird, but also, do that. No, just a little, I mean, that is how an awful lot of them goes. I know. I know, she's only five, so, oh, it's her birthday next week.

So what will you get her? The week after is, I don't remember. Oh, I don't know. What do you usually guess that? Well, what usually happens is we all forget. I think that's very, very possible. Now, you have been sent a knitted Nancy, and I just wanted to say there'll be people of my age

who remember with some fondness, the knitting Nancy. Did you have one of those? Oh, now I do remember that. So that's where the... It's a chunky pencil shame of lady. And the yarn comes through almost like her giblets and you can turn it into something.

A really weird concept. Very, very, very odd. Kids before social media, that's how we wild away our childhoods. But what did it actually make? Because it did make something. Nothing. It was a sort of bit of, if you were lucky, a little bit. A bit of twine came out of the bomb of the Nancy doll.

I mean, it was just very, very strange indeed. Very strange. Can I have a very quick moan, please, just to see whether or not anybody else wants to join in on this moan. I left something on board an Austrian Airlines plane that I need to get. It's not an object of value, but it's a washbag that had some really sentimental jewelry in it. So I wanted to pursue it and to cut what could be such an interminably boring, long story short. You have to get in touch with Heathrow lost property of your flying into Heathrow. When you get in touch with Heathrow lost property, what you now do in this great, glorious world of AI is you go on to

a search engine part of the website and you type in what you've lost and you type in the date and then up comes every single thing that has that word in the title and you can click through and look at it so look at about 10,000. But an image of it? It's no a description of it, Jane. Which strikes me as one of the most infuriating and really numb-skull ways of dealing with something that A is always going to be emotional. B needs eyes on it. And C is just part of the deal, isn't it?

When you travel, if you lose something, you should be able to expect it to be kept safe and you can get it back. So I now face the task of trying to track down through thousands of items, a yellow washbag. I mean, there's no other way that I can describe it. And also if the person who's logged it isn't also describing it as a yellow washbag, I'm never going to find it, am I? No, you are reliant on those words being used by both ends of this conversation.

Yes. Isn't that just ridiculous? And it's just a description then. So I looked at about 20 of these descriptions this morning. Quite a lot of rucksacks in there. If you've actually got a secret rucksack fetish. No. If it was the start of sometimes.

Drapes. Look at me. I'm off on manoeuvres. I'm going to use that bloody rucksack this weekend. Well, if anybody needs a rucksack, just log on and say you've lost one and you'll be able to pick it up. He's throw it. Honestly, it just made me so mad. And I don't know whether anybody else has had success with that system, actually.

And maybe there's something that I'm missing about it. Maybe there is a clever way of describing it or narrowing it down or something. It also says you can put in your date when you lost it. But it might take up to seven days for somebody to log. it. So you've got to go through seven days. Well, is it realistic to expect to get it back? I know you want to, but is it completely unrealistic to honestly imagine that it will come back to you? I am pretty sure, I mean, having done

a not inconsiderable amount of travelling in my life, and having left several things on planes before, what you used to do was you said which plane it was when it arrived, the number, and it was kept in, you know, everyone kept it in different places. It didn't go into one great big hall where AI then dealt with it. So yes, you did get things back. I left my glasses on a train about two years ago. And actually, you know when you get a really good pair of glasses that you really like them? And they weren't cheap because they never are very focals. And they're better and more comforting than a man. Well, and more portable. And less likely

to let you down. Although it doesn't help if you lose them, which is what I did. I never got in. I mean, I filled in the form. I mean, I don't know what I was hoping for, really. But you would think after a... But then, again, we're asking too much of these services. Are they really going to have just a giant compartment for well-loved, very focals? But he used to be able to go to Paddington, didn't you, and go to their lost... The department.

Their whole department, they were so helpful. We lost a very favourite doll on a train. They were absolutely brilliant. Absolutely. Well, did you get it back? Yes. Yeah. Name of doll?

Oh, God. I can't remember. actually it might have been Trisha. I can't remember. Trisha. Okay. We had some very strange dolls names. Right. Just a quick one.

We have been contacted by a company who'd like us to exhibit at Gulf Food 2027, which is an international trade exhibition for the food and beverage industry. Where is it, Jay? It's in the UAE. The event provides an opportunity to connect with buyers, distributors and retailers. If you'd like to exhibit, just reply to the email. Well, I don't know what we could exhibit. I think we could do some nice sweet and savory snacks. We'll get back on to Schnitzel. Thank you very much for the email. Bassem is the person who's been in call.

I think you've probably got the wrong address, but look, I'm on board. I love all those things that come into the email. Some of them are just so inappropriate for us. And then there are people who tell us what we could do with the podcasts, they come from marketing departments. They tell us. What do they think we could do with it? They think, well, they think that with their help, we can reach millions and millions and squillions of people. It's the last thing we want to do. We don't want to do that. No.

We've got a quality audience. They're very happy with our lot. Oh, now, Glyn, we were a little bit concerned about Glyn because we hadn't heard from him for a couple of days. Do you have Glynn's email to him? I have. And I hope it's of some comfort to Glyn that you had actually said to me today. What was it yesterday? Is Glynn all right? It's Glynn all right. So, Glyn, thank you for, well, just reassuring us.

Yesterday's discussion on dangerous trousers. Oh, by the way, Amanda Wakely did make us both laugh yesterday. You've just got to repeat. And in case you haven't heard yesterday's podcast, which was an interview at the end there with the fashion designer Amanda Waitley. Just, you know, just big yourself up. What was the funny question you asked at the end? No, it's because you asked a great question at the beginning about the style.

DNA is her thing. So she's got a podcast and her book is called Style DNA. And you asked her a question to which the answer was it's important because people make up their mind about you within the first 30 seconds of seeing you. So you've got to be sending out a message that you're really happy with about your own unique style DNA. So I just asked her at the end

what she had thought of both of us within 30 seconds of meeting us based on our style DNA. Yes. And unfortunately, Amanda decided to be very honest But it was the way she said it She was very charming really But she paused and then what did she say Jane?

She took a breath And then she said You both look very comfortable And we went with that So Amanda, many thanks Amanda Wakely She is so so good at what she does Style DNA is the neighbourhood

It's all a long way from Glynn Now earlier in the week we had had this discussion about dangerous trousers. These are these very flappy trues that are quite fashionable, particularly in the hotter weather. Glyn says, trousers are always dangerous. Buffering a bit their love is.

That reminds me, my daughter couldn't settle at the pub where she got the table last night because the screen get buffering. No. Can you imagine? I know. A tell it, a pub that I'd advertise, come and watch the match, you know, here. They couldn't get the screen to work.

Oh, my goodness. We were watching in a domestic setting But we had the doors thrown open And we were about a minute behind And the raw for the England goal It was right across London Jane It was extraordinary We're not very far from the Emirates Stadium

And sometimes the wind is blowing And it's a massive match You catch a little bit of a waft of this But I'd never heard anything Like that as London celebrated It was quite tingles actually Well, you're making me sad again now because it was. I was at a friend's flat and she lives very close to a pub where they were showing it.

And I'm a bit boggled by this and I know there is an explanation. So yes, we heard the roar from the pub, which was really genuinely lovely. People were just so delighted in that moment. It's hard to talk about it. But look, they were really happy in that moment. And then 40 seconds later, we saw the goal. So that's because the pub is watching not on the iPod. player, but watching on a straight streaming live fee because they've paid for it,

don't they? I don't. I hope so, yes. Yes, I think you do, don't you? If you're showing a game to more than 20 people in a public setting, you're charged money for it. You're buying a different director TV thingy. Are you?

Okay. There's a technical term that often used in the business. I think we need a man involved here to explain exactly what was going on last night, but it was as I've already said, about 19 times now. Really lovely to hear that cheer. Come on, glim will cheer us. Right. Trousers are always dangerous.

I'm reminded of this every summer on the couple of days that it's hot enough for me to get my legs out and wear shorts. Now it's then that I notice that when using a urinal, there is a very fine splashback of urine from the urinal onto the thigh-stroke knee area of my legs. It's a fine aerosol. of urine. Not enough to see, but it can definitely be felt on the skin. This isn't really surprising as a liquid is being squirted at a smooth, hard surface a couple of inches away, but I never

notice it normally because I'm fully trousered. The trouser basically acting as a piss sponge. Thank you, Glyn. Worried that it might just be a quirk of my waterworks. I have mentioned this to my friends. And they all agree that it is a thing, but I've never heard it reference. I've never heard it referenced widely. I wonder why you've done it now. And I'm sure most women are in total ignorance of the phenomenon. Not anymore, Glenn. No, but can I ask a subsequent question, please, Glenn? So when you're not wearing shorts, why isn't that showing up more on the male trousers? Well, because, as he says, it's a very fine aerosol if you're in. There isn't much to it. But he does go on to add this important final paragraph. Next time you're wondering, whether a son or

or a partner's jeans, trachies or trousers really need a wash. The answer is always yes. Yeah, I think that's worth remembering. And maybe keep your hands well away from the thigh and knee area of a gentleman's leg, which is probably good advice for life generally. Yeah, very much, sir. Glenn, thank you. We're just glad that you're still there, and we really appreciate what's going to say,

his input, but you know what I mean. I know what you mean. But, I mean, his point that there is something, the whole workings of a urinal, Obviously, we're not regular users. It's just a bit odd, isn't it? I think it's very strange. And I don't know, are they still, if you're building a new building

and, you know, new library or something like that, are you still building lots of urinal? I wouldn't. Wouldn't you be happier men in a booth? A stall. Starr. I would imagine that you would, and it's just so strong.

It's strange, isn't it? It's always been assumed that it's absolutely fine for them to all urinate publicly and women have always needed privacy. It's very strange. The whole thing is fascinating and possibly something we could do one of our Friday special episodes on. Somebody would have written the history of the urinal. What always amazed me and like you, I'm not a very frequent user of the urinal area. But sometimes if needs must, if I've been at an event, than I have just strode in and headed for a store because it's just so annoying. You know, you just don't want to embarrass yourself in a lady's cue just because toilet equality hasn't caught up with you. And I just don't understand that blue, I still never understand the little blue cake thing that's down at the bottom because that's not going to...

What blue cake? Oh, there's a blue cake of disinfectant quite often just chucked in at the bottom of a urinal. Is there? Yes. And we don't have a little blue cake chucked in at the bottom of our toilet. do we? Not usually.

And it's not because they need something to aim at, which they do when they're learning. They don't afterwards. So why is that still there? Why wouldn't you just have a spray that sprays everything? Yeah, you'd think. Well, I mean, it's an area for debate. Yeah, or not too much.

No, not too much. Don't spend the whole weekend thinking about this. No. Can I bring in a conversation which has been amplified by Fiona? who was interested to hear about living near my great grandma street without knowing it. And we may have hit upon something. And this is what Fiona wants all of us to talk about. As a youngster in the late 1970s, I moved from the far north to London.

She says you could do that then. Cheapish rents and cheaper beer. My sister and two cousins all did the same around a similar time. We live separately in different places in South London for a few years and eventually moved back north. 30 years later, I did the family tree, and imagine my surprise when I realised all four of us had each lived two or three streets away from where our great-grandmother had also lived. She was gloriously named Fanny Botting. Fanny Botting. Fanny Botting, yes.

It's a practice which I think is slightly out of fashion these days. Yes. Yes. I don't believe it's. But anyway. It's one of those names. You don't hear it these days, do you? No.

You don't. I mean, if you were called Bossy, which it called your daughter, Fanny. Probably not. No, I don't think so. Neither of us are known who's worked with a Fanny. Fanny Garvey would just be high comedy and a Fanny Glover. No, no.

Come on, let's just pull ourselves together. I can't. By the way, we just need to say, It's still hot in London. This has been how many... Is this the third week now? Yes, it is. No wonder we're at a wits end.

And there's no rain coming for another two weeks. I mean, I have to say, if you are part of the farming community, I really do feel for you at the moment. This must be really, really tough. Yeah, good points. Right, thank you. Brought me back down to... It's very good.

I went on a course not that one. Very good. Agricultural detail. We're back with Fiona. She had moved around South London. throughout her life, Wandsworth, Kennington, Streatham and Tooting places where we had also unknowingly moved to. Is it in the muscle memory? Has anybody studied it as a phenomena? At time for a PhD, perhaps, I open it to the hive.

And do you know what? I bet people do have what they might think of as a coincidence like that in their locker. And I know that you laugh at Bromley and all of that kind of stuff. but it's weird how sometimes you turn up in a place and you have an affinity for it that is inexplicable. I'm sorry to you. No, I just keep thinking. I go into a little in East-West Kensington. I think have I been here before? And the answer is yes, I have.

But that's different. Yeah, okay, right. Have you never been somewhere in the world and you've pitched up and you've thought, I just feel something about it? Not I feel that I've been here before, but I feel drawn to it and I don't know why. I think I'm honestly not as dismissive of that sort of thing as I might have been in the past. I was talking to a friend over the weekend actually who says that since her mum died, she has taken comfort in things like the appearance of birds and things like that.

And these things do really resonate with people, don't they? I mean, some people believe that if you see a feather, it might be of some significance, or a little bird that seems to be omnipresent in your garden, never used to be there, sits on your chair. These things are hugely significant to people, and I think you dismiss them at your peril. Yeah, I agree. So there might very well be something in the idea that, yeah,

I don't know, something in the memory of your DNA is bringing you to a place that people have been to before. Yeah, it's cool. No, it's so weird. I mean, I had absolutely no connection to Tolstant. I'd never even been to Dalston when I went to look at a tiny railwomen's cottage in Dalston. And the moment I got off at the train station, I just thought I just really like this place. So, you know, I like everything about it.

You know, even though there was a lot to not like about some parts of it. So, you know, it was weird. I was very, very, very drawn to it. And it was literally 100 yards away from where Granny Grace's family had lived. So, so strange. to make clear that it wasn't the railwomen who was tiny. They must have been quite short. Well, actually that's true.

Do you know what, it's unfair to call it a tiny real woman's cottage? That's how the Daily Mail described it. And I was very annoyed. Because I thought for me, actually, it was quite a substantial property achievement. They called it small rare women's cottage and I've repeated it, Jane. Well, that's how red. They are so appalling, aren't they? Because you've got a bearing...

I mean, the house will be big, because you're... because you're small. Well, yes, all right, but it's quite big anyway. Yeah, okay, sorry, it was big. Right, such a cheek. We'll bring in a guest in a moment. You'll be relieved to hear, but this is also about coincidences. This is Smellon, Melanie, who's in Somerset. By the way, Burnham on C is in Somerset. Now, Andy Burnham is the new Prime Minister, comes in on Monday, and I'm already braced for the first headline when he gets into a bit of a stew. Something goes wrong, and the headline will be.

B. Burnham at sea. Oh, that's very good, Jane. Yeah, it's very good. I'm prepared to give that to any of the typroids if they're looking to berate him, as they surely will be looking to berate him. By next Wednesday. I'll Tuesday afternoon. Hearing Fees London House coincidence, how about this? My eBay shop sells vintage Vogue magazines.

I live in a Somerset village and went to the post office in the small close by town. Oh, I can't say this. Do you know this place? Vivaliscom. No. It sounds French, doesn't? Vivuliscum. How is it pronounced?

W-I-V-E-L-I-S-C-O-M-B-E. No, I'm sorry, I can't help you. Are you spelling that wrong, Melanie? It sounds almost French in a way. I passed over my Vogue parcels, one of which was to an address in London, the postmaster looked closely at the address and told me he'd sold that house not that long ago.

It was a member of his family who died and he'd dealt with the sale. What are the chances? Millions to one, surely. That's why I still buy a lottery ticket every week. Melanie, who has in the past contacted us about her rather vanilla local town of Taunton. That was troublesome, wasn't it?

Yeah, that got her into a spot of bother, but she's now focusing on coincidences instead, which I think will probably be no bad thing. And I do find that that is a coincidence. I mean, I know that, well, coincidences are all, but they happen every day. I can't say the word. I'm sounding still a bit drunk, which is unfortunate.

I can't say the word. But coincidences happen every day in all kinds of circumstances, and they are curiously, I don't know, they're quite affecting, and sometimes they're quite shake you. Well, they are, but whenever they appear in crime fiction, they're always dismissed, aren't they? There's no such thing as a coincidence in a police procedure. It's always something that's going to start tugging on the thread

that leads to the denouement of discovery. Well, now that the football's over. Back to Vera. Back to, well, yeah, back to my old. I think I might dive into the second series of The Pit, although I'm just about over the first series now, so I think I probably can do battle with series two. Okay.

Is it a bit too gory towards, watch or do you get used to the gore? Do you have to look away? It's so good that it just becomes part of the involvement of the whole thing. Okay. Because I did have to switch it off after 10 minutes because Oh, okay. No, give it another structure. I guess the characters are amazing. There was a loose foot. Yeah, there is a bit of that. Okay, right. Let's bring in our guest today novelist Claire Powell. Those of you with long memories might well recall that Claire is on the podcast because I'd forgotten about her book At the table. At the table. Oh, let's just bring her in. Now, Claire Powell is here, author of a book called At the Table. It was named one of the best books of the year by the Times and the Sunday Times in 2020.

And you have a new novel out now. This is called All In. It is set on a family weekend away in the med. Now, this is a holiday, and you just need to set it up. It's a holiday paid for by a seemingly successful man called Ted. but also on the holiday are his partner Kayla, the dad, that's the dad of Ted, and also the dad of Ted's brother Dave, and sister-in-law Joe is on the trip as well. Is that right? Yes, and well done, you did that really well,

because I always, if somebody asked me to explain it, I'm getting myself in a real muddle over. Who's who? I know who's who. It's more than who. You wrote it. It's saying who's the dad. It's a couple, and who's,

He's going with his brother, but also the boy's dad. It's a mouthful. Right. But you've got it right. Okay, thank you very much. Well, it's a great book. I should say as well, and obviously it doesn't help because we're on radio, but the cover is absolutely brilliant.

And it's a kind of, not Andy Warhol, who is the... Hopney. Hopney. David Hopney-esque. It is, yeah. That's entirely intentional. Yeah, well, I didn't design it. There was a designer who designed it.

I can't remember what her name is. She'll be on the cover. There we go. Let me get it. Jacket image, Logan Zilma, Trevillian Images. Oh, yeah, so that's who the, that was the illustrator. And then obviously there was a designer who. Design and Amy Smithson. Yes, Amy Smithson.

And I think it's actually like, it's kind of like a collage. He did a sort of little photos of, but I love the cover. I think it's perfect for the book. Yeah, it's a man in sort of standing nervously next to a woman on a sunlanger who's in a bikini. And it looks, I don't know, there's something mournful. and just a bit tragic about their posture. Anyway, we've all been there. We've all had great holidays, and we've all had holidays, particularly with family.

So the dynamic here is that the central couple, this is Joe and Dave, are, they're together, they're still together, but they have been through a really tough time because they've been having IVF. Now, I guess that is something you wouldn't write about unless you've been through it yourself. Yeah, I suppose so. I mean, good on anyone who wants to. Who wants to have a try. But yeah, it was definitely something that I went through myself and so wanted to put that into it, that kind of the experiences that I had, or the feelings that I had, I suppose, and the ears. Yeah, well, Joe in the book describes IVF and the IVF journey as she calls it dull suffering. And, I mean, it's a great phrase. And for those of those of us who have, haven't been through it, that does give us a window into that world, I think.

Just tell me a bit more about it. Yeah, I think you, IVF can sort of, it goes over a certain amount of time. And also, there's a really long lead up to it. And so it's, I mean, it's not like a holiday. I was going to say, it's almost like a holiday, and that you sort of, you got your tickets, and here's your thing, and you've got to get to the airport at this time, and that's the day when you're going to get your eggs collected. And there's all these things that have, that go into it.

And that's only, you know, one, if you're lucky to do one round, if you're lucky to get the eggs, you know, to make embryos. There's a lot, a lot of hurdles. And it all can become, I suppose, the dullness of it is, it just wears you down. It can really wear you down. It sounds absolutely exhausting. It's also physically invasive for the woman involved.

And are you living essentially between appointments? Is that how it feels? Yeah. Yeah, you're definitely, you're living between appointments. You're always in a waiting to find out what a result will be. You're going and you're getting, your follicles are getting measured. So you're constantly sort of getting results. And you don't really know what those results might mean.

And so you're waiting for a doctor to tell you what those results mean. Can I progress to the next step? Can you progress to the next step? You're always waiting to see if you can progress to the next step with the final step, obviously being a pregnancy test. that not everyone will get to that point because lots of things can go wrong even before that bit. So, yeah, it can take a long time, basically.

It can be a very drawn-out process that's, yeah, not easy. And certainly I think for you as a person, and indeed for the characters in the book, whilst the person having IVF is going through that particular experience, the world around them appears to be full, inhabited almost entirely by couples who can just get pregnant without men. making any effort at all. Yeah.

And what is that like? Is there a word for it where you, you're going through something yourself and so then you start noticing it everywhere. You know, isn't there a word for that? It's like a sort of coincidence. But suddenly, if you want a baby, then all you can see when you're walking down the street is pregnant women, women with prams, you know, that's, it just suddenly, it heightens everything that you're noticing.

And also obviously lots of women are having it in a time frame that we all are having it around the same time so therefore friends are, family members are because unless you're lucky enough to have a really diverse age group of friends where you've got some friends in your 50s and some friends in your early 20s you're probably most women around the age of between, I'm going to say the 30s basically

you're in the thick of it of people having babies, not having babies, wanting to have babies, not wanting to have babies perhaps, but you know. And can I ask if you tried to go on holiday yourself during IVF? Because when you are going through something like that, the idea of taking a holiday is often completely different to the reality of taking a holiday, because you can't take a holiday from your head. No, absolutely. And we did. We did a couple of holidays. We did we went to Devon and then we did Mallorca. But I did it at the end of a cycle. So I think it was after, I mean, the Devon, I feel like was booked when we didn't know what the outcome would be. And actually, I think that's a really, one of the things that you

can do is put your life on hold when you're going through IVF because you don't know and you're constantly going, well, I could be pregnant by then. So I don't want to book the holiday because I might be pregnant. So I might be pregnant. Then I'm not going to be able to go and drink. I'm not going to. And I think that's a bad idea. I think the good idea is to have things that you can always look forward to. and then if you're pregnant, great. If you're not like I wasn't, then you could still go and hopefully you can have a good time.

In fact, that year, it was 2022 and their euros were on. Right. Let's not talk about football. Sorry, sorry. We've done that. Been there. Can't bear it anymore. I really call. We should say that actually, you, I mean, I know you're all right for me to say this.

You have had a child. And I just wonder whether it would have been possible to write a book like this, which is really poignant if you hadn't had a child, actually. I was thinking about that, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, God, I I would be a different person had I not had a child.

I don't know where my head would be at. I don't know where my life would be, what we would have decided to do. So I couldn't say what book I would have written. I hope that I would have still written about IVF, but certainly for me, this book probably was a sort of, I wanted to write a positive, what if?

I wanted to, sort of for my former self of being like, what if it didn't happen, but it could still be okay. But also I'm writing about the point when it's not quite okay yet. You know, I haven't jumped into the future of going, and it's fine. We're happy. We've come to terms with it. We're living a great life.

Actually, they're at the real crux of going. Joe is sort of come to terms with it, but are higher and Dave going to be okay. Yeah. Well, I think that's really interesting because it's clear that Dave, he does want, he wants a baby every bit as much as she does. and sometimes we overlook the suffering of men in these situations. I do think it's one of the best aspects of what is a really great book, I should say, that his experience is acknowledged properly.

Yeah, I really wanted to write Dave's perspective because, like you say, I feel like I have read now quite a lot of women's perspectives of it. I've also spoken to other friends, but I haven't heard about it much from a man's point of view. And I know from going through it myself and having a partner. And, you know, he would say, you know, Dave's not me. That's not how I felt. But I thought it was, yeah, an interesting opposition to hers and to look at that at the same time. And just a brief mention of, I mean, you described that situation where your peer group, they are basically at that time in your life.

They do tend to be around your age. They're going through very similar experiences. And what are you supposed to do when somebody announces, a pregnancy and I mean I think people wrestle with that yeah so I personally would say now

if you knew if you know that a friend is going through some sort of fertility treatment I would say send them a message because I think if they a friend did this did this for me

she sent me a message and then I could receive it in my own and kind of have my instinctive reaction which was you know and then I was able to go okay and now

I can send her a really lovely message, but it wasn't that sort of face-to-face someone telling you and you thinking, because at the moment there's this very strange thing where it doesn't make sense, but you think that every time someone tells you they're having a baby that it almost diminishes your chance, that it's taken away a bit of your chance of a baby, which makes no sense. But none of it makes any sense. None of it makes no sense. It's all irrational, yeah. Well, I don't think anyone's ever more irrational than when they've experienced baby loss or they're desperate to

get pregnant. It's just a really rubbish time. Sorry, Fee. No, I was going to completely agree with that. And actually, I just wanted to ask you a bit more about the male perspective, because we know that men don't tend to read as many female authors as women who read male authors. And of course, to know that there's a male experience in your book is a really important thing. I mean, is there anything that a publisher kind of notes about the content of a book that might mean in this glorious world of algorithms and SEO and all that kind of stuff, you could get it in front of more men, to whom it would be hugely relevant. Yeah. Oh, God, what do I don't think, I don't know, I don't really know what publishers do to help it get into men's hands. I'm not sure that that's a, to be honest, because men don't

buy much fiction, I think they're kind of low down in the priority of who they are focusing on. Yeah, it's a shame. That is a shame. Yeah. Because you're not going to, people aren't going to right about the male experience if they feel that it's not going to help. I think that's why cover's important. Yeah. Because, and I did say I really want to be careful not to do a sort of very Pinky one. Female, pinky beach, beach reedy cover because I don't, I wouldn't want to put off.

I don't want it to look like it's just women on holiday. Yeah. Women on holiday. Women on holiday has a little bit of a romance. And good luck to her. There is another really interesting male character in it, Teddy, the older brother. Now, he is superficially, he's got everything in life sorted, but it's not that simple, is it, mercifully? No, and even superficially, has he got everything sorted?

I mean, he's, yeah, he, Teddy is very wealthy and he's very successful, and he seems happy that we soon realise that there are things that he wants me, what he doesn't have is a relationship. And you might think that he doesn't even want a relationship, but that kind of comes out in the... Yeah. He's actually... Well, we're not going to...

We don't need to reveal, but he does have a partner on the holiday, but she perhaps is not quite as invested as he might have hoped. And it's true that no good deed goes unpunished. That's the expression, isn't it? And he's paying for this trip, Teddy, which puts everybody else on it just on the back foot a bit. But it is a bit awkward, isn't it, when someone extends generosity to you?

Because it's quite difficult to know how to behave. Yeah, exactly. And there is, there's a, it's a transaction, really, because by Teddy paying for the holiday, everybody else feels in debt to him. And like now, we need to be on our best behaviour or the behaviour that Teddy expects of us, which in Teddy, because Teddy's are sort of, you know, blokey,

all right, let's get the drinks in. It's everyone, have a great time. Everyone looked like you're having a great time. Yeah, I mean, he wants to drink at the airport on the way out, which, I mean, you know, my children sometimes do that when they go away, and I just can't bear it. I just, honestly, Fia and I agree on this. You never want to drink before you get on a plane, would you?

I think it's so unwise. It's one of those things that I do not understand how it's been allowed to develop into such a thing, that people want to be really drunk before they get on a plane, a place which is unfamiliar and always has a queue for a very small toilet. Claire, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. I quite like a drink on the plane.

No. Don't come away with us. Not sitting anywhere near you. Not at the weather spoons before, but I would have a, if I was flying in the afternoon, I would like a glass of wine because it makes me feel like I'm going on holiday. Yes, I just about see what you mean. I just go to Crette and get a, Pratt, Crette, what do I call it? God, I'm having a bad day today. I just get a bigger than averagely filled baguette, and that's my way of just getting.

Celebrating. And it is her way of celebrating. Yeah, it really is. Something else you write about, which I think is so much a part of modern life, but not acknowledged as much as it should be in contemporary fiction, is the phone. Because we've got to admit how much we use these ruddy things. They're permanently in our hands. And if they're not in our hands, we want to know where the phone is. And we miss it when it's gone. And we look forward to being reunited with it. And you actually mention it. But did you, I mean, were you aware that you were mentioning it? Oh yeah, I mean, I kind of felt like I couldn't not mention it.

Yeah, but it does curiously go unreferenced in a lot of books. Yeah. I mean, I'm writing a new one now and I'm worried that I'm talking about it too much in the kind of a, this is a text message and, but that is how we live now. We do live so much, you know, communication. We communicate so much in text and or even email a bit. But, yeah, I mean, the phone plays a sort of plight. It has a plot point in the novel, but also that's kind of...

But yeah, the phone is important. Yeah. Sorry, Fiegel. Natalie has texted in to say that she's just back from holidays, has read the book and it was the perfect holiday read. And she is starting a campaign to have a sequel to it. Natalie, thank you so much. Well, I'm not going to mention the end of the book,

but there are... You leave us hanging a little bit. It's ended, yeah. Yeah. So they are worth revisiting Joe and Dave, aren't they? Are there? Yeah. I guess so. I mean, if, I might need a bit of a break from them, but I could, I could return to them perhaps.

Well, you're being a bit coy. I think she already has returned to them. Quite possibly. Yeah. Okay. So your first book at the table was about, it was about a series of gatherings involving food, wasn't it? Tell us a bit about that for anyone who wants to read your body of work, Claire. Tell us about at the table. At the table is about the Maguire family, parents. and their two children who are in their 30s and the novel opens with the parents who have been seemingly happily married for many, many years announcing their divorce

and that they are kind of fine with it, they've talked it through, and the rest of the novel is about the sort of ramifications of that news on the children's lives. And each chapter follows one of the characters and is based around some sort of food or drink. Yeah. I mean, it's an incredibly effective way of telling. Well, I was going to say an insignificant story,

but there's significance in every insignificant encounter with family, isn't there? Whether we like it or not. I mean, family, I feel like family is the only thing that I ever want to write about because there's so much there. You know, everything is your family, really. Whether you see them or you don't see them, there's so much, I guess, to do with psychology that relates to your family. Well, do your family read your works?

And what are their observations? I think they all, I mean, yeah, they all love it. Well, they say they do. Yes, what's the website group that I'm not in? Yeah. Yeah, I think that what they like at the moment is they can recognise probably aspects, but there is enough of it. I don't write auto fiction.

They're not going, oh my God, that's me, you know. So I think there's enough of a distance. for it to not feel uncomfortable. Okay. And could this be filmed? Yes, if anybody else would like to. I think there's, looking at the kind of fare that is sent our way over the summer months, often filmed in the depths of winter

where the cast is shivering in seaside locations and they're actually, it's only 11 Celsius. I think All In would be perfect for that. I do too. Okay, she's available, folks. Get in there, please. Claire Powell, All In is out now. And honestly, if you're looking for a superior summer holiday read, that is your novel. Excellent recommendation. We need many, many, many of those, don't we?

Yeah. We return next week. Thank you for bearing with us quite clearly. Jane is still drunk. So we'll go upstairs and we'll try and sober up. What's the problem, Eve? Can I not say that? Is it explicit lyrics? What? Oh, we've got a Friday app of the yoga prisoner. Okay. So we join you again tomorrow for a bonus Friday edition and I'll tell you all about that. Well, I'll actually going to tell you about it now,

but you won't hear what I tell you about it now because this will be the end of this podcast. This isn't helping. It's tomorrow. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee.

Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.