Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Been too free with Sir Richard - with Susie Dent

Episode Date: October 28, 2022

Jane and Fi talk words with lexicographer, etymologist and the woman in Dictionary Corner, Susie Dent.Susie Dent's new book, 'An Emotional Dictionary: Real Words for How You Feel, from Angst to Zwodder' is out now.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] Producer: Emma SherryTimes Radio Producer: Rosie CutlerPodcast Executive Producer: Ben Mitchell Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome to Off Air with me, Jane Garvey. And me, Fee Glover. And we are fresh from our brand new Times Radio show, but we just cannot be contained by two hours of live broadcasting. So we've kept the microphones on, grabbed a cuppa, and are ready to say what we really think. Unencumbered and off-air. Hello and welcome to a slightly secret Friday bonus ball edition of Off-Air with me, Jane Garvey.

And me, Fee Glover. I love the fact that you've gone into a slightly secretive kind of tone. Well, I don't want everyone to think that this is something that anyone can hear. It's for special people who've already engaged with Off Air. It is absolutely their bonus. If you manage to stagger through four editions, this short one's for you. You deserve something special, and I think that's what we've got here. Very much so. So on Wednesday, Susie Dent was our guest on the programme.

And she has compiled a new dictionary, which is entirely based of words that describe our feelings, which I thought was a really beautiful thing to do. We're not very good at finding the right words. No. Well, I think I've got a few favourite ones that I cling to and I don't go any further. I'm not exploratory enough. I'm not as clever as Susie Dent, frankly, who is the queen, the uncrowned queen of words. She just knows so much stuff. Do you know how many years she's been in that corner in Countdown?

I think it's decades, isn't it? It's 30 years she's been in Dictionary Corner. You would have thought that every single permutation has already come up but you know that it won't have done. It's not possible statistically. So she's seen out some presenters though hasn't she? Yes I did ask her about that and I thought I was being terrifically clever and she she batted me away because as I say she's a lot cleverer than me. So here she is describing what inspired her new book An Emotional Dictionary. I think I remember looking in the Oxford English Dictionary, which I have in front of me all the time on my screen,

and just finding the expression lonesome fret. And lonesome fret is centuries old and it means feeling really restless and uneasy from being on your own for too long. And I just thought, exactly. Because obviously we were so out of touch, weren't we? uneasy from being on your own for too long. And I just thought, exactly, because obviously, we were so out of touch, weren't we? Physically, we weren't allowed to hug and we were out of communication with a lot of people. And so that's when it really gathered pace. I mean, I have been writing down different words for emotions from the corners of the dictionary for years and years and years, but it did start to come together during lockdown. Now, some people say the British are not an emotional people.

So you may or may not dispute that. Does that mean that our language suits our supposed lack of emotional coherence? Or what comes first, our supposed lack of emotion or the language that doesn't allow us to express emotion? Oh, yeah, that's the very big question. That's a sort of a fundamental question of languages. You know, do we feel something because we have a word for it? Or do we actually create the word to reflect our emotion? And I'm not sure anybody has come up with a definitive answer for it. But I would disagree that we don't do emotion. I mean, we do melancholy and yearning really well so the dictionary is full

of words for for melancholy and melancholy itself is you know it's kind of been viewed in different ways amongst sort of artists in the 19th century it was kind of the spur to creativity so you needed to be melancholy and you know the great pose for a gentleman was to kind of be dressed in black and looking sort of pensive and sorrowful. And then, of course, you know, the blues comes from the idea of blue devils that would kind of beset alcoholics and eventually most of us with sort of horrible feelings of sadness. So the dictionary pages are absolutely full of words for that. We don't do joy so well, I have to say. We do tend to rely on other languages to express joy. We have a few.

We have words like letterbund, which is a bit like pulchritudinous, and it sounds horrible, but it actually means full of joy. And so I have tried to rescue some of the lost positives from the dictionary. I've been on a bit of a mission to do that, because we are clearly quite a pessimistic lot and the negatives are the ones that tend to survive. I was just wondering where you find all of your words. Yes, good question.

Well, I've been reading the dictionary for years and years and years. I mean, it's my job on Countdown, obviously. But I have shelf after shelf of dialect dictionaries, glossaries from centuries past. But essentially, the Oxford English Dictionary that I mentioned is my best friend, really, because it is a historical dictionary that it charts words from, you know, Old English on. But it also charts the history and adventure of a word as it's gone through its life up to the present day. But there are so many words that have just, they've just got one record in there. So basically what you'll find is you'll find a word and a definition and then an example of its use. And I mentioned these lost positives. I mean, there are some beautiful ones like

apricity is the one I always try and spread. And apricity is the warmth of the sun on a winter's day and how that feels on your back. but it's only been mentioned once in the dictionary likewise Risper which was recovery from despair just one record but they're in and they will never go out from that dictionary so that's where I come across them and honestly it is a really good read definitely my desert island book for sure sure. Now, is there a word for a period of chaos on a governmental horizon that can leave a person feeling democratically a little bit pooped? Yes, I would say, I'm not sure how specific, I mean, obviously, this language is infinitely versatile. So I think this would fit perfectly. You can be dumbfungled and de-pooper it.

And one that I tweeted today, actually, is my word of the day, is over-mused, which is just weary from too much thinking. It's kind of think-ache. Oh, I love all of those. Think-ache. Yes, that's brilliant. Your word of the day on Twitter is wildly popular, isn't it? It does suggest that there is a real appetite, there is a thirst out there for more words to use because i guess the average joanna myself we don't we tend to stick to our

favorite adjectives and our favorite bits and things just shows up absolutely mind-bogglingly inarticulate i'm yeah let me try and ask you a proper question, Susie. Okay. I'll get there in the end. The fact that your word of the day is so popular would suggest that there are many people like me who are desperate, actually, to expand our vocabularies. I can get really quite stuck in just going to the same old favourites all the time, and I always be a bit more imaginative.

Oh, I am exactly the same. But there's always that sort of tricky sticky question which is if you use a word that no one's heard of you're just going to look either incredibly pretentious or you're not going to be understood so at what point can you use them and at what point can they become currency but that is in a way the beauty of the word of the day because I think it's part of the satisfaction of that is people knowing that there is a word for it you know that actually we think English is full of gaps but there is a word to plug that gap if it gets picked up great if not at least we're having fun with words and as you say it's just I think it's popular because people are reminded of how passionate they are

about words um essentially I don't know about you both I was quite worried about going on Twitter because I was just expecting avalanches of hate and uh etc and I do sometimes I don't know about you both, I was quite worried about going on Twitter because I was just expecting avalanches of hate and etc. I don't get avalanches but sometimes I get stuff like everybody but for the most part it's great. Why would you attract any sort of hate on Twitter?

Oh, you'd be surprised. Just because you're female? Yeah, probably and also clearly what tends to get picked up with word of the day is that, you know, people think I'm commenting on some sort of situation, and quite often I am. Quite often these words are just entirely self-referential. I mean, I remember putting a Scots word or expression,

Hingham Tringham, in there, which means barely hanging together, which is completely how I was feeling that morning but then my timeline was full of pictures of Boris plus a bit of hate for uh clearly pointing the finger which actually I wasn't doing on that occasion uh so no honestly I don't get too much hate I mean I'm quite lucky from that respect but uh it just I think what I've been really gratified by is just the fact that people do love words and I think most of my followers are clearly word lovers rather than haters yeah it's the expressions as well I mean I came across

one um this going to Barbados yes for a description of well you explain because I'm going I am now going to use this because it's definitely me oh it's brilliant there are just so many words for either being drunk or or drinking and benjamin franklin um published what he called the drinker's dictionary which is full of weird euphemisms for drinking or being drunk one of them is being too free with sir richard which is one of my favorites uh being to barbados another one because of rum i think and its associations there but then there's also a euphemism for going to the loo and I get the two mixed up which is visiting the Spice Islands

which I think is also great Could that possibly suggest a little bit of disruption in the old digestive system? I think it may do after you've been to Barbados quite possibly That's intriguing isn't it I described clowns yesterday in the office Susie as giving me the ghegals.

And nobody had the faintest idea what I meant. And then I realised that I didn't really either. Do you know where ghegals comes from? What it does mean specifically? I always thought, do you want me to look it up? Because I've got the dictionary right here. I always thought they were kind of trinkets and sort of like little bits of trumpery finery eagles but you pronounce them g jaws which is even better is it g jaws or you say g gals eagles and i think what i was trying to say was that they make me feel

really really uncomfortable like the heebie-jeebies yes exactly i can't stand to make you feel very yes yeah and i know there's a there's a proper term for hating clowns, isn't there? Coulrophobia, yes. I have got, I'm thinking of Gugor, which is a gaudy trifle. The Trump refinery thing. But maybe, how are you spelling it? She doesn't know, Susie.

I love it though. I've only ever said it out loud, so I think I'm saying G-E-E-G-A-W-S. Yeah. G-E-E-G-A-W-S. Okay. So, yeah, in the dictionary, it means showy without value, what also used to be called trumperiness, which I love.

Yeah. But nothing, not your definition, but that's how language evolves. So if you're using it like that at home and people totally understand you or with your friends, et cetera, you know, that meaning might well go into the dictionary well i mean nobody did understand me but we're quite we're quite new here so they weren't very rude about it i think i got the gist it's like the abdabs isn't it which always come in a screaming variety yes it is one of your recent ones that i absolutely love was rantum scantum what's rantum scantum. What's Rantum Scantum? Oh, Rantum Scantum is just a kind of

disorderly mess, really. And yeah, it's a brilliant one. And again, lots of words in the dictionary for utter chaos and confusion. I think it's probably because we're quite gossipy nation at heart, or at least English speakers collectively like to gossip and then when we gossip we tend to be a bit negative don't you think um so I think that's maybe why we tend to focus on things like this but rantum scantum is just gorgeous and there is um there are no rules in English famously the I before E except after C rule just doesn't work at all um but the the rule that we don't know we know is all about sound. And it's called, and I apologise for this, it's called the rule of Ablout reduplication. And it's with things like Rantum Scantum or kind of compounds like this, we know what to put where.

We know which sound comes first and which sound comes second. So that's why we will never play pong ping or wear flop flips or eat a cat kit. Do that again, sorry. We flop flips or eat a cat kit. Do that again, sorry. We wouldn't ever eat a cat kit. We would know it would be a kit cat because we know what sound to put first. It's like Jane and Fifi and Jane. Exactly. But we've been so immersed in this for centuries that whenever we come up with a new one,

just Scantam Rantam just wouldn't make sense, would it? In my head. It wouldn't be as good. So, yeah, I love that word. What adjective from your new dictionary or indeed from any other would you apply to the tenure of Anne Robinson on Countdown, Susie? OK, I don't know. What would I? I mean, I was asked to come up with an adjective

for every Countdown presenter in an interview recently and the one I came up with, Anne, was consummate because she is such a work... She's got such a work ethic that she would be down in studio 10 minutes before everybody else grilling the contestants, finding out their life stories so she could use it on the show. And, you know, I think that was the one thing that really marked her tenure,

was actually finding out more about the contestants and making them the sort of centre of the show. Someone committed to hard graft reminds me of myself, actually. I was thinking exactly that. That's Jane Garvey all over what adjective would you give yourself suzy oh gosh um oh i think i would say i'm prone to the mubble fumbles um and the mubble fumbles are just sort of fits of despondency uh mixed in with a bit of anxiety and self-doubt. And then because they're mubble fubbles, they don't sound too permanent. So then I kind of come out again and find those bits of joy.

But the mubble fubbles, I think I live in them. That was Susie Dent, lexicographer, etymologist and the woman in Dictionary Corner. We will be back on Monday, Jane. Yeah, we will. Oh dear. You might not be. I should say that in the spirit of transparency,

because we do, you know, we are authentic with our listeners. It's actually Thursday as we speak and we've just been testing these Jamie Oliver bastard dishes, which are hot to trot and coming soon to a takeaway delivery service near you if you live in either London or Bristol. And they were quite tasty, but crikey, they're not cheap, are they?

They're not cheap and they're settling in my stomach as we speak. And in commemoration of Black History Month in the canteen today, I had the special spicy Nigerian chicken dish, which is currently doing battle with Jamie's pasta. So wish me the best of luck. Oh, that sounds revolting. You have been listening to Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. Now you can listen to us on the free Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler and the podcast executive producer is Ben Mitchell. You can listen to us on the free Times Radio app or you can download every episode from wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget that if you like what you heard and thought, hey, I want to listen to this but live, then you can, Monday to Thursday, 3 till 5 on Times Radio. Embrace the live radio jeopardy.

Thank you for listening and hope you can join us off air very soon goodbye