Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Begins with a T and rhymes with cat

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

Fi is back, and right now, where there is Fi, there is her cough. We advise listening at a distance. Jane is still in Liverpool with her family, so Eve sits in. Fi and Eve cover uniforms, road rage, planting a placenta under a pear tree, and a geisha version of Barbara Cartland... Plus, Robbie Millen, literary editor of The Times and The Sunday Times, bursts into the studio to share his book picks. Robbie recommends 'The End of Everything' by M. John Harrison, 'Dodge City' by Patrick deWitt, and 'Hotel Exile' by Jane Rogoyska. You can buy tickets to the Cheltenham Literature Festival here: www.cheltenhamfestivals.org/events/jane-garvey-and-fi-glover-with-anneka-rice You can check out our YouTube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/@OffAirWithJaneAndFiOur most asked-about book is called The Later Years by Peter Thornton.If you want to contact the show, ask a question or get involved in the conversation, please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well, hello everybody. Now, the good news is that although we are very, very close to you in spirit, we're very close to you in mental capacity and we're very close to you in subject matter. We're not geographically close to you and you can't catch germs by listening to a podcast, but we do need to do a little bit of an explanation because things have been slightly bumpy over the last couple of days and I do apologise for that. So I got a bit of a bug As we were discussing last week

It may have started from Jane Garvey's an ostral But we will never We'll never be sure of that, Eve, really Anyway, by the time I got to Wednesday I'd absolutely had it last week So I wasn't here on Thursday Which is why there wasn't any podcast On Thursday

There was never meant to be a podcast on Wednesday But I started really honestly And why, Eve? Nor do I fear it's best not overthinking at Okay So I don't need to apologise for that one. Okay.

So nobody was here on Thursday. Thank you for bearing with us. You can always dip if you feel the need, especially if you're using us as a sleep aid. You can dip into our back catalogue. An enormous back catalogue. We've got an enormous back catalogue based on the fact that we do

four times as many podcasts a week as normal podcasters do. And you can also go back and listen to some stuff. Are we allowed to say from the other place? Go on. Yeah. So I think in the fortunately back catalogue, there are some absolute belters, actually.

So look, apologies for a disruption. Jane will be away for the whole of this week. She was away for last week, and she is with her dad up in Liverpool. Allison is there with her. It is a time where the whole family needs to be with Ray at his bedside. So we do pass on all of your lovely wishes to her. And Jane really loves doing this podcast.

as well. So she is always unhappy not to be able to do it. And just as soon as she can be back, she will be back. But as we said, just before Christmas with her mum, she is absolutely in the right place at the moment. And it has been a belter of a year for their family. So we are sending lots of love ourselves. Is that enough? That's enough. That's enough. That's enough. Yeah. I mean, no, it's always really difficult. and it is one of those things as well, isn't it? Let's just be honest about this. In a podcast, we reveal much more of ourselves than we would in a normal job.

And that kind of is a plus point in many ways. I think sometimes it's also a little bit difficult, if I can be honest. I think when huge family things emerge, you know, you may feel that you want to know a little bit more about it, but it's not my story to tell. So we will wait for Jane to be back in situ before we talk about that a bit more and I just hope that you'll bear with us.

We've got the lovely Eve here today and Robbie is going to join us to do books. I'm going to come bounding in in about 20 minutes. So I think lots and lots of people across the country have got this bug at the moment. It is a coffee bug. It's very rife. It is very, very rife. It is really doing the rounds. You have my deepest sympathy if you do because it's just that incredibly irritative.

Cof that won't go away and I think most people have had to take to their beds for a couple of days too. It seems early in the season. Yes. But is that just because it's still so sunny outside, Eve? I do associate bugs spreading better when it's colder. Oh, do you? And I don't know why that is.

Now here we're going to reveal the fact, what's your highest science grade in the educational establishment that you went to? I think I might have scraped a B in science. G-City. Oh, okay, so you're the age of science, double science, triple science. Yes, I actually do double science.

Double science? Yes. But don't ask me anything about it because it was a long time ago. So my highest level is, obviously it's O levels back in the day, is a C in biology. Okay, so we're not in great scientific company. We're not. And I don't think that even our most loyal audience needs to hear two humanities graduates. discuss the spread of germs.

I just saw that vague theories. No, I know. Well, I mean, that can propel you across the internet these days. It can turn you into Secretary of State for Health in America. I'll share my big theories and make millions. Yes, why don't you? Why don't you do that? Now, following on from your reveal

about your nasty incident on the line bike, man shouting at you, for which you've had a lot of sympathy and rightly so, we've had some very thoughtful emails as well about where that conversation started which was the partner of a woman who was on a plane who was elbowed very harshly out of nowhere by a man sitting next to her and this comes in from Tamson

I want to say that even though she didn't do anything at that time the fact that her partner has written in about this is already a positive thing to do in getting this out there and forewarning others of the possibility. It will cause all women listening to pause and think what they would do in that situation should it ever occur. Forewarned, in this case, can be forearmed. When I was a child in the 80s, travelling back and forth between boarding school in the UK and my parents' home overseas, I often travel with my two brothers, but without our parents. When I was about 12 years old,

I was woken by the man next to me stroking my bare leg. I was in school uniform. Do you know what? That was one of the weirdest things about those flights which we were quite often on too but with my mum we weren't unaccompanied minors all of the kids would get on in school uniform and it was regarded as a kind of safer way to be able to keep an eye on them but actually it was so strange and I think very inappropriate

my younger brother who was six years old and had been awake the whole time said to me this man keeps saying he loves you we both knew this was really wrong but we're too young to really do anything about it as far as I remember nothing much was done but I think I must have stopped him by me moving or something, or maybe my older brother swapped seats with me. However, about two years later, I was on a plane

and a Dutch sea captain probably in his 40s started reading a pornographic novel next to me. I saw the book. I went to the galley. I told the airs deodas to move me. I said I was uncomfortable, and she moved me next to an older woman and put a man in my previous seat.

If the earlier incident age 12 hadn't happened, I don't think I would have had the guts, aged 14 to request action. So I would like to reassure your correspondence that even if nothing was done in her partner's case, a small mercy is that it can be discussed in a way that she and all of us listeners can be forearmed should it happen.

Gratefully, Tamson. Tamson is such a good point. So if we all just have a think about it, think through what we do, I think you're completely right. It may help us if we find ourselves in that situation. to not have an instinct that we're floundering

to actually think, okay, this is what's going to happen. It's such a good point, but it's also such a sorry state of affairs that we already know that to almost be on this constant high alert, you've already planned for it in your mind, this awful thing that could happen so that when it does, you are prepared to act accordingly. It's just such a shame that it has to be that way. It is. You're absolutely right about that.

But I think it's also, true that for many people who are not fueled by aggression and don't ever cross that line into violence, our reaction just has never been practiced. And actually, did you ever do a self-defense class? They're so good because one of the things that they teach you is to break through that barrier. So you do all have a practice screaming. And actually, I think to Lai Dahlia, attended a self-defense class. I'd never moved at such speed in response to somebody else's

physicality and I'd never really screamed out loud like that. And it does make you feel powerful that it's definitely within you. Because you're not really encouraged normally to do something like that. No, well, we're told to be very quiet and very biddable. Yep. And to move away from trouble, aren't we? That's how we're brought up actually

as women, which is wrong. So I think this is superb advice from terms for us all to just have a bit of a think through and just feel that inside you've got the capacity to be able to do something. Whether or not you then can is a completely different matter. Don't blame yourself if you can't. Because I think exactly as you said in the moment, it's so shocking that fight or flight thing.

That's what governs your reaction. But it would be nice to be prepared because it's awful to then have, which I think a lot of people will be familiar with, that feeling of regret and being like, I wish I'd said this and all the things you could have said and should have done. bad. Yeah, how empowering to walk away from that and be like, I really gave it to them.

Yeah, I stuck it to the man. Absolutely. I do find increasingly that if I'm protected by my car, she's still them onto car, plow them down. No, I don't do that. No, I don't do that. But I do emit some absolutely terrible language. And especially a very arrogant young man, there's a man who refused to move forward, so, you know, I could pull, into the turning behind him.

And, I mean, he had about six foot in front of him and he was there in his throbbing BMW. And I said, could you just move forward, please? And he said, no. Oh, Jesus. No. I said, please, because, you know, the traffic's backing up behind us now and we'll just get, both lanes will get stuck.

And he said, no, I'm not moving forward because of safety. And I just think, I lost it. And I did, and I did use, I would admit to this, I did use a swear word. You effing and blinding. And then I used a word that began with T. And mine's with cat. And he was so surprised that this little middle-aged woman sitting very, very, very close to the steering wheel with a great big Ronnie Corbett glasses on.

You do sit very close to the steering wheel. It would admit such filth. And he moved forward. Good for you. Well, he was just big. an ass eve and it's just like don't just stop being an ass anyway right

so many deep breaths it's only Monday so many things about uniforms we love a uniform don't we I've given you a couple that's a very nice one about uniforms throughout time could you do some of that I'm going to drink some of my coffee very fragile over here

gosh this comes in from Raquel I was inspired by your podcast question about who likes a uniform. My trademark is a self-imposed uniform. It's my costume, something I hide my insecurities behind. It quells my imposter syndrome by giving me a sense of identity. When I was at school, I was, quite frankly, a goodie two shoes, a swat. I never broke a rule, except when it came to uniform. I felt such a rebel when I joined the other girls in my class in eschewing our grey A-lined skirts and trading them in for mid-length pencil skirts, but my uniform allowed me to be one of them. For a

brief moment, I wasn't the scholarship kid, the poor kid, or the kid who didn't have a dad. I was in the in crowd. Years later, I lived in Thailand and worked for a law firm where all the secretaries were given a uniform so no one could tell who came from a rich family and who came from the proverbial wrong side of the tracks. I thought that was a brilliant idea. Throughout my career, I've relished putting on a suit as I became a lawyer. Whenever I felt insecure about my career choice, my mother, actress told me to treat my clothes as a costume for the part I was playing. And so, me and my insecurity made it through a big city law firm and into a New York record company where Prada shoes and designer jeans were purchased. That became my next trademark. Seven or Citizens of Humanity

jeans are black and white t-shirt and flip-flops, all for meetings, killer heels. Eventually, having followed the wrong man to Idaho, that's a whole different story, I ended up working at university where the school colours, as sported by the sports teams, fans and alumni were blue and orange. And so began the next phase of my self-imposed uniform. I now work for another university where the colours are easier, black and gold yellow. People know me as the lady who is always in school colours. Am I insecurity? My self-imposed uniform has become my trademark, my shtick, what I'm known for. Behind it, my insecurity still peeps out occasionally, but somehow it feels a little more quelled and boy does it make shopping easier which frankly may be the greatest benefit

of all i may have started wearing a uniform to hide my insecurities but now i wear one because quite simply it's part of who i am and i love it brilliant such a nice email it's the way uniform's kind of punctuated raquel's entire life also it's the way that uh that recal has found herself not needing to wear a uniform but actually managing to create still liking it this is superb no i love that And I do, I wonder lots of things about that. A, I think it's incredibly sensible. B, did anyone then follow suit? And C, does that mean that it's a kind of work clothing?

So when you get home, you still change. These are small questions. Do you have a home uniform? Well, but lots of people do, though, don't they? You know, they have, well, like Jane and I have often discussed, she likes to go home and she slips into something more comfortable with the elasticated waist and has her tummy time. and I like to, even if I've had a soft trouser on during the day,

I like to wear a hot trouser in the evening. Yes, which I don't. You can't do? No, I don't like to do. But what happens when Raquel moves on from one phase into the next? Does she still have all her blue and orange clothes? Are the killer heels still at the back of the wardrobe somewhere? Yeah, and does she wear those as her out-of-work clothes?

Sometimes I think some clothes remind you of a period of your life that you don't want to be reminded of. This is so true. So perhaps their best. Yeah. Being sent to the charity shop. Yeah. No, very much so.

Very much so. And I think for people who really didn't enjoy school, I think sometimes just a uniform is problematic for the rest of their lives. This one comes in from someone who'd liked to remain anonymous. Yeah. So the reason why we're laughing is because I had read quite a lot of your, well, I'd started your email with your name. and then I read you want to be in on this

we've gone back oh it's very matter here we go our school uniform consisted of a suit and tyre a collard shirt of any colour you liked in an Oxford Donne style gown over the top we have a very very classy type of listener a slight aside on the gown you had the same one throughout your time so what started as a floor scraping cape style arrangement for the pre-pubescent

13 year old boys morphed into more of an oversized shawl for the strapping 18 year olds the gown was all also multi-use rain cover for your books, gold posts, general mot napkin handkerchief, and probably only wash once a term if lucky. But there was one fellow student who always wore the same black suit, white shirt and black tie, day in, day out.

When I arrived at university, freed from the uniform in some unimaginative jeans and t-shirt, the same boy arrived too, wearing the same uniform, black suit, white shirt, black tie. Now without the gown and the addition of a black trilby and sunglasses. That's very blues brothers, isn't it? At university, this look was out of the ordinary, and he became recognisable around the campus, never changing from this look.

It had been apparent through school that this uniform allowed this chap to hide some excess weight. But unbeknownst to us over the next two years, a transformation was occurring under this uniform. And like a butterfly emerging from its chrysalis at the beginning of the third year, our suited friend appeared. Skinny jeans, T-shirt, leather jacket. The uniform had worked and could now be shed. our anonymous gentleman's book recommendation

is Ready Player 1 which has been made into a film but the book was brilliant quite a few people have recommended that it's about gaming isn't it yes it is and actually my boyfriend loves that film

right you know boyfriend's got good taste in books is he? Yes yeah I think some people said that but I can't verify that because I haven't read the books that he's read oh I see okay well look we bow to the greater wisdom of the crowd and they said he had very good taste

do you know I'm so off put by gaming like I just can't think that I'd enjoy a book about gaming. Did you ever read, well, I used to think that and then, did you ever read tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow? No, I've actually got it in a pile by my bed, though. That is about gaming, and in a way that you pick it up and you think, really? And then it was absolutely

my top book of the year I read it. Really? Amazing. I loved it. I'd recommend it really. Do you need to understand gaming to get the book? Not at all, but it gave me an understanding and a respect for it, but it isn't so much about gaming.

That's just kind of there in the background. Okay. Well, we've got a huge pile, haven't we, of recommendations for all of these books. And actually, we seem to have struck something of a nerve with that category. We're looking for a book that's being read or has been read and really enjoyed by young men. So I can't wait to choose one, actually. I think it's going to be really interesting. And we could ask Robbie Millen as well, who should be here imminently. We should. We should, and we could, and we will, in fact. while we wait for Robbie to arrive and prepare ourselves

and usually even I have to do some deep breathing and lying down on the floor this one comes in from Anna Walker who says I realise I'm about a week behind but I felt I had to share three topics following on from your trip to Chatsworth when I was 10 I went to Chatsworth house on a school trip from Sheffield

as it was a very hot day we found the two of the house boring four of us ended up in the fountain in our knickers much to the horror of our teacher who witnessed it from the top floor corridor window. In at number two, I used to be an ambassador for the Prince's trust and was therefore invited to a dinner at Highgrove House. When introduced to the then-Prince Charles as being from Yorkshire,

he related a story about a trip there, putting on a possible Yorkshire accent. He said he overheard a mother asking her son if he wanted to meet the prince or have a baked potato. The son opted for the potato. What really tickled me, this is number three, about the trip to Highgrove where the dinner guests

dressed in black tie in the gift shop beforehand literally everybody brought something so I rubbed shoulders with Phil Collins and Joan Armour Trading as we queued up to buy our souvenirs everything's from pickles to the placemats that we still use 25 years later

with images of paintings by the now King Charles See a attach photo however don't remember there being a room spray back in the day those are fantastic memories I wonder what Phil Collins and Joan Arma trading bought. Oh, that's a fever dream, that, isn't it?

Phil Collins and Joan Armour Trading in the gift shop at Chatsworth. That's just, no, High Grove. God, it's really, yeah. It's seen everyone. Yeah. But also, can I say, I think that's just a little bit on the make. So you have a dinner at High Grove, but you keep the gift shop open for the guests to have a bit of a peruse before they're there.

I sort of love that. No, he's got a lot of money. Yeah. That's not a lot of money. And gift shops are not cheap. Well, someone's got to be manning the till, haven't they? His paintings are very lovely, actually. Those are very old, may I say so, Anna.

My mum's got all of these things. They're very old-fashioned dinner settings, aren't they? Very thick and rigid those ones. You've got your big placemats, and then you've got your glass coasters, and they all match. and I don't know anybody in my generation who's putting those out on the table. Now, no condemnation of you are,

but it was such a blast from the past to see something like that. Oh, Robbie's at the door. Gosh. Oh, hello. Hello, Robbie. Hello. We are just discussing thick, posh placemats.

Oh. He's at home instantly. Do you have those? Do you recognise those? Do you know what? This brings me back to my childhood. Absolutely. They're a bit of a waste of time, aren't they?

Well, we were just saying, well, be very careful. Oh, sorry. One of our listeners. Oh, they're beautiful. You know, I've done, though. And because she bought them at High Grove. Oh.

Yeah. They're organic as well. Yep, she was at a dinner there. Have you ever been to High Grove for dinner? No, have you been to any Royal Palace for dinner? I haven't. No, I have a bit of a loser, aren't I? No, it just means your best years are a head.

of you. These reminded me of my mum. She keeps these. She keeps these in the cyborg special occasions. It's a little bit old-fashioned. Nothing wrong with being a bit old-fashioned. Yeah, a little bit, yeah. I mean, they would be comforting.

They'd have felt backing, wouldn't you? Oh, yes, exactly, which was to slowly rub off. Yeah. We should do this email. Oh, yes, we should do this email. Now, Robbie, have you had the cold? Not yet, but it looks like I'm about to give it. Thank you.

I'm looking forward to it. Do you have a big week coming up? Yes, I do. Jane gave it to Eve. Eve gave it to Hannah. Hannah gave it to me. I'm giving it to you. That's great, because I'm going to be at Chelten Literature Festival.

All tickets are available. Lovely. Talking to everyone. Super spread, huh? Fun times. Right, hang on. I got it. Oh gosh.

No. I am officially better. Really? I am. That's why I'm here. Why are you sweating like that? I am a bit hot, actually. Do you want you to take my scarf?

Our house, my daughter's had this too. She said it much worse than me, actually. Oh, my God. Basically, we coughed ourselves into the neighbouring borough over the weekend to the point at which my lovely neighbour is in her mid-80s and she would say of herself that her hearing is going, she popped by to see if we were right. Oh my goodness.

That sounded like, you know, we had consumption. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it is, yeah. She's not in her infectious stage anymore, Robbie. Yeah, anyway. You're a very fit and healthy man, so you'll be fine. And I have to wipe you down. in a moment. I'm sure there's no spittles spray

and things like that over you which could be infectious. Yes, it used to be what I came to work for but I put those days behind me, Robbie. The Night Babs is the email heading. Have you read Matthew Sweet's amazing by all of you? Oh yes, I'm interviewing. I'm on stage at Chowatnam on Saturday.

It's coming Saturday, 8.30 tickets available, I believe. So I interviewed him for this podcast last week. He's terrific, isn't it? Oh my goodness. And the book is, is the best biography I have read, I think, in a decade. Definitely. It's superb, isn't it?

And because I think Craig Brown in his review said, no biographer had this much fun writing about, say Jane Austen. I love Jane Austen, but she's no Barbara Carlin in terms of private life and all the exciting things Barbara Carlin did. She's such a glorious, magnificent monster. She is a magnificent monster, and she's just, she doesn't make sense, does she, as a person? and there are so many contradictions in that life. Also, you show a picture to people under the age of, I say, 40, 45,

they look at you blankly and slightly horrified. Why are you showing me this picture of this great pink thing? And they have no idea who she is and why she matters so much. But her book sales, apart from anything else, are just stupendous. 570 million. Yeah, I think only Shakespeare and Agatha Christie outsell her. Maybe God with the Bible, that's a good seller as well. well. But yes, she's up there.

Yeah. But now if you go into a... You know God didn't write the Bible. Did you know? We'll have a debate that later. You could have a special on that. No, but if you go to a second-hand bookshops now, you can't find her... Because there used to be hundreds of mills and boonshells.

You can't find them anymore on second-hand bookshop the Barbara Carlin's. She's disappeared down the memory home. Memory hole, sorry. Why is that? Is that just because in one generation she's gone so out of fashion, just throw the books away. I suppose so. I mean, they were always quite cheaply produced, weren't they?

Which was perhaps why they sold so well. But, you know, they just disappeared. Yeah. I've never read one. Like placemats. Well, the placemats have kept. That's the thing. Oh, yes, but heading away in a drawer. Yes, yeah.

Have you read a Barbara Cartland, or not for? Well, I'm going to read, I think it's called a Virgin in Mayfair, just to get the feel of it. I think that's her, er, text, as literally types like to say. Her what? Uh. Uh, uh, text. You are, you are.

You know, the original, the kind of the essence of. Oh, okay. Matthew Sweet had read 270 books, haven't he? Well, I'm going to... Yes, I'm going to question him on this. Is there any authors that you've read that quantity of? No, because no one else is quite like her. True.

This is industrial levels. I admire her just for that. Yeah, yeah. So it is absolutely brilliant book. I just... Yeah, terrific. Couldn't recommend. Strong agree.

Yes, strong agree. I'm going to buy 10 copies at... Christmas and that's just what everybody's getting. Slightly spoiling the surprise for everyone. Oh, they don't care. They'd just be grateful to hear. I'm buying them something, Robbie. This is in from Sam where we started. Sam, thank you for bearing with us. I'm the exception that proves the rule, you don't send me to sleep, which was such a treat

last night so I was able to listen to your interview with Matthew Sweet. I'm so jealous that you got to meet Dame Barbara Fee. What a legend. I went to lunch at her house. Thought I'd share a photo of the 19-year-old me attending a come as your idol party whilst at Royal Holloway getting the train from Egham to Staines, dressed as Dame Barbara Cartland, along with Arthur

Dent, Action Man, the Virgin Mary and Dame Kiri Ticanua. That's rather lovely, isn't it? It's fantastic. What a group. That's just a party of its time. That's absolutely brilliant. It is, isn't it?

It's the drag version, though, of Barbara Carlin. Well, I think she was quite easy to do as a drag artist. It's sort of a geisha version of Barbicester. Definitely got a lot of powder going down. But it's quite wonderful. It's just the combination of all of those people. It thought it was fantastic.

And I wasn't really expecting Dame Kiry to carolware at the end. 35 years later, I'm off for a weekend away with some of these same folks. Sadly, all dress more subtly. But the Great Dictator is on Audible, ready to keep me company on the journey. Well, Sam, I hope you had a lovely time. And how lovely that you've kept in touch, actually, with all of your university friends. And I'm sure it was a great part of tape. Right, Robbie.

Don't look at me like that. I'm just worried. I'm not worried. Fine. Because I don't want to do a heimic removal or something like that. I'm not very good with my hands. Right. Can you just do some talking, please?

Yes, please. I can do that. What books do you bring to our table this week, Robbie Millen? Oh, that's a very good question. Well, shall we start with one which I found absolutely baffling? In a good way, I think. It's on the book of shortlist, so I'm trying to read my way through. Four Down, Two to Go. And it's called Em John, it's not called that,

it's called The End of Everything, but Em John Harrison. Em John Harrison is kind of, he's been, quite, well into his 70s now. And he's always been on the kind of the weird, speculative fiction, sci-fi side of thing. And the book of judges this year are quite an odd bunch. You've got Jarvis Cocker, Popster, and then Patricia Lockwood, who's a poet, is quite zany. So they've gone a bit weird in their taste, and this is by far the weirdest book on the shortlist.

And it's very strange, but I found it quite beguiling. It's sort of set in a sort of Britain sometime in the near future, somewhere in Kent, I think, because a lot of the main characters are wandering around, kind of amusement arcades and things like. on the Kentish Coast. And it's essentially these people called the I Getty have arrived from outer space. And it caused great confusion, civil wars and things like that. But we never see the I Getty.

No one really knows what they are. And the main character in this finds something on the beach. Apparently when the I Getty came, these things kept washing up on the beach, artifacts, items. But they're sort of living things that grow and change shape. it's very strange It sounds awful Well do you know what

I approached it with some trepidation But found myself actually quite Rather enjoying it And usually I like to know what's happening in a novel That's usually a preconditioned I'm fussy like that But this one I didn't mind Just sort of letting the weirdness flow over me

Because there's some beautiful images For instance there's this scene where lots of dead people from the past, dead men, sort of start appearing in like a murmuration. It's called the chapter's called the murmuration off the coast, sort of flying around and things like that. I have no idea whether this is something that one of the characters is seen

because they've gone a bit deluded or whether it's something that he wants to happen. It's very strange. Does it have a resolution? Well, I wouldn't say, because I put it down and thought, well, that was baffling and weird, but in quite a good way. I enjoyed it.

Okay. I could see why the judges went for it. Normally, I just, I'm a very, I like things to be quite straightforward. Yeah. So it's harsh of me to say that sounds awful. It doesn't appeal to me for all of those reasons. You just said. Oh, dear.

It's spreading already. So soon. I mean, I have to say, because it's quite a good short list, because we've got the Elizabeth Strout. the things we never say and John of John by Douglas Stewart and they're both real kind of emotional books I mean both of them

had me crying because you're going on a sort of a journey with people and they're feelings I love feelings yeah and stories stories exactly and then there's another one called Black Bag by Luke Kenard which again very odd book about an out of work actor

who for a social science he's hired by university to appear in a social psychology experiment which involves him wearing a black bag, big huge black leather bag, so you only see his feet. And he comes rather attached to the bag. Really doesn't want to ever leave the bag. So I told you it as a weird list. It's very funny though. Okay. If you want to read a novel about a man living in a black bag.

Well, that's trying, and it's probably saying... That day will come. It's not here yet. And it will come. And then it's an exploration of our British society, masculinity. he probably all of those things and it's got some great jokes in it so that's black bag by Luke Kennard if that sounds intriguing if that's your bag

can I just ask you as a well-read man so Jarvis Cocker's criticism of the books that came in before they narrowed them down was that he didn't think that the writing standard by the male authors was as good as by the female authors he thought that the men were writing

rather mediocre kind of self-absor stuff. And that picked up quite a lot of traction. Yes, he did. And we discussed that. But then by the time we get to the shortlist, it's mainly men, isn't it? It is mainly men. For men to two women. What do you make of that? Judges are odd people, aren't they? It's very hard, I mean, this sounds like a cop-out, but there's so many books published each year. There's something like 100, 150,000 new titles published each year. And okay, some of them might be reissues of class. or things like that. But nonetheless, so anything anyone says about what trends in the book world are usually wrong,

unless they're really obvious big ones, like romanticcy, that is definitely a newish thing, which has got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. But whether men are better than women, you know, this depends where you're looking. Yeah, but I suppose the inference slightly was that it's easier to put a man on a shortlist for a mixed gender prize than it is. to put a woman on that list? And if the books that came in originally by men weren't very strong, how can it be that four of them are the strongest?

Yeah, that's what I didn't quite understand about his criticism. It doesn't sort of seem to stack up to me. Because to be honest, generally, there's always a push to make sure that there are more sort of women voices or ethnic minority voices or whatever it is, or unusual, non-traditional voices, whatever the particular phrase is. So I was slightly surprised.

having said that and then ending up the shortlist of four. Who would your money be onto it? Well, the one I haven't read is Marlon James the Disappearers, but it's getting people terribly excited. New York Times called it a masterpiece, which maybe got a bit over-excited. But even someone like Charles Corrin, who's read our esteemed colleague,

he read the longest and the shortlist, thought he was really admiring of it. although he thought because he's a previous win him, maybe not. So I'm not sure he's going to win. It's really intriguing, isn't it? Yes. Actually, there's just so much other stuff that's in a judge's room apart from the quality of the writing.

Exactly. Yeah. So, and we know, you know this because you are a previous chair of judges for... The Bailey Gifford Prize. Britain's leading non-fiction prize. Thank you. I only mentioned it a hundred times last year. I was so puffed out with my self-importance.

No, we're keeping it going. I'm not Emeritus's chair. of judges of the bail of hereford. It's not an official title, but it feels right. It's a bit like the placenta. Yes. Okay. I still matter.

Yeah, we'll plant you under a pear tree, and I'm sure it'll be very fertile. That's what some people do, isn't it? Do you need it? Right, let's move on. What else? What else is on your list, Robbie? Now, let me remember what I said to be. Yes, I can't possibly remember what I said a few minutes ago.

Oh, I know. There's a novel. I really loved it called Dodge City by Patrick DeWitt. Yes, this is your group sheet here. Which I reviewed last week. But it's a lovely road story set in America in the 60s, the main character called Lee Clark. He's a normal guy in the 60s.

He's a student in the big American universe. He likes beer and he likes looking at it. car engines and he irons his own t-shirts. He's so square and normy, not big into the whole hippie culture. But he's so annoyed by a condescending hippie fellow student. He punches him. And there is his downfall because he then has to, because he's no longer a student, his deferment from having the draft is over, the military draft.

So he gets his call-up papers. So, I mean, there's one lesson here. Don't hit hippies. Yeah, that's a good lesson. I suspect that wasn't the whole point of the novel. But he then goes, he decides he doesn't want to obviously go to Vietnam. Why does he want to kill these people who also want to kill him? It seems mad to him.

So he decided to go on a trip across America and find his way to Canada. And he will say goodbye to his estranged family members along the way. And it's a real delight because, first of all, Patrick de Witts, a very funny writer. and it's full of warmth. You know, his family, like all families, are kind of a bit messed up. But there's real bits of love in there and misunderstandings. And it's a delightful of wordplay.

And I'm not going to say what the ending is, because that's really annoying. But it skews towards happiness. Lovely. It's beautiful. We love skews towards happiness. He wrote the, you might remember it, a novel called The Sisters Brothers, which was turned into a movie

about two hitmen in kind of gold rush America. Oh, well, I remember you talking about that. You bring us a non-fiction title as well. Oh, yes. Hotel Exile. Yes. So that's by one called Jane Rogoyska, Historian. And it's all about, well, roughly speaking, the Hotel Lutetia,

which is now, I think, a Mandarin oriental in Paris, very posh. But it was a hotel which has got quite an interesting, into war and immediate post-war history. First of all, a lot of exiles from Germany ended up there. So the first section is all about these, a lot of them Jewish, obviously, communist German exiles sort of meeting there, trying to work out how to save themselves and save Germany from, obviously, Hitler on the rise.

And then the second bit is during the war, when the German army arrives and all of suddenly got lots of SS officers milling around there, But the most affecting bit, the last bit, because right at the end of the war, a lot of the people who survived in the death camps in Poland and the East were brought there. Most of them were either stateless or had originally been sort of French. And it's really affecting how they arrived. And immediately they were puffed with kind of DDT to kill the lice. because there was obviously a problem with typhus and things like that.

So these traumatised people all of a sudden they were told to strip and they were being puffed away at. And they even got terrifying. They were little volunteers, schoolboys, with their kind of scout uniforms on. And they saw the scout uniforms and these terrified people were absolutely nervous. People in military uniforms as far as they were concerned.

And it's just this sort of sad story of these people arriving on buses and whatnot and people milling around it trying to get word of their relatives still out there. And it's, you know, the first two thirds of it, I was kind of enjoying, but this last third I thought was so moving. Yeah. Well, also, what a great book to read at the moment. You know, all of that chaos is actually in our very recent history.

Yeah. But we seem to have wanted to forget about it and we need it now. Quite interesting. I think she'd obviously, Jane Ruggice has spoken to some people who had worked there for, had been there, or had accounts from people who used to work in the hotel. for years afterwards, because they would say occasionally would get guests who would wander in in a very confused way, looking very emotional, and the hotel staff would have known,

oh, we know exactly when you arrived. Yeah, wow. Well, those sound like three excellent choices, Robin. I can't even remember what they were. I'll go through them, just so our listeners can have a quick recap. We were talking about Hotel Exile by Jane Ragoisker. We were talking about Dodge City by Patrick. DeWitt and The End of Everything by M. John Harrison.

For those who need a bit more bafflement in their lives. Very much so. I think the murmuration of dead men over the North Kent Coast is something, it's an image I'm just going to have to put behind me, especially today, if that's right. Yes. Well, it's possible that I misread it and it's mean something else. But I have to say, I did sort of weirdly enjoy it. Yeah, no, fair enough, fair enough.

This has been a very weird broadcast anyway. Do you feel it has? Yes. Sorry, this sort of feels normal. The new normal. Chaos. I may be overmedicated, that's for sure. Yes, your eyes have got a particularly dull quality to them.

Today's not a day for a workplace you're intestated. Which day is, Robin? Yes, I know. That's got me pondering. If you have a particular day, which you think is good for you. You're in test be right in. Do you know, I've never worked at a place that's needed this. No, I wouldn't like that.

I wouldn't like that either. I would always pass, actually. I'm very, really good, goody tushes. Oh, mine would just be like cider. Do you want to just plug your appearances at the Chutland Literature Festival again, and then I'll plug mine. Oh, okay, that's a good idea.

So on Friday, I'm interviewing Lionel Strider about her new novel. She's great fun because she's... Wow. She is quite sharp tongue. I did once on. ask her, Lionel Shriver, are you a misanthropic? And she said, I'll let you into a secret, just a little bit. So she's very entertaining. And then Matthew Sweet on Saturday night, 8.30, I can only remember that time. But on Saturday morning, I'm in a treble act with Laura

Hackett and Susie Goldbara, my young women from the books team, who do most of the work, actually, talking about our books of the year, what we're looking forward to next year. And you You can see us all for three graces. That is brilliant. Well, no, that will be an amazing session. We love all three of your book recommendations. Really? Yep, they broaden our minds.

Do you not have a favourite, though? Yes, we do. Laura, isn't it? No, so that will actually, that might be worth going to. There's some sense there. They all sound great, Robin. Yes, they do. There's something else as well.

Oh, I'm doing wine time. I have no idea what this means at 5 o'clock on Friday. With Will Lowen's. That's right. Well, that'll be hugely entertaining. I think we just... You always do wine time. Yes, but I never talk about.

Never in front of people. Well, I think people should turn up for all of your sessions, Robbie. Yes, unfortunately you do have to pay... Well, that's okay. I set wine time. Yeah. They did. Although it may be...

Anyway. Look it up. on the website. They can cope. They'll pay. Yeah. They will. I've only got one session to contribute. Jane and I are interviewing Anna Carice on stage on Thursday. Is she going to, you're going to interview her? She's going in a helicopter or something flying in. I'm very much hoping that she'll be in a jumpsuit. I'll be very disappointed. Yeah. And she should run onto the stage, have one of those massive, because she had the Madonna earpiece going down ways. Oh, I was just looking at your own ones. Yes. Oh, in the new studio, Oh, these headphones now.

These traditional ones. These are old-fashioned ones. You look a bit like a cyborg from Doctor Who. Or Metal Mickey. The younger listeners might have to look up Metal Mickey, won't they? Do you look like that anyway, a cyborg? Oh my gosh. Right, you can go now.

We'll see you in Cheltenham. I'll look forward to it very much. Well, I hope you can use. some of these. Otherwise, it's already in a waste of everyone's time, isn't it? We can use lots of it. Oh my God, I've been called so many things in my time, but never at Cyborg. What are they called? Cybermen. Those silvery ones. Yeah, all right. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye, Robbie. I'm off.

See ya. Bye. Yeah. Oh, my word. Right. That's Robbie Millen, and you can catch him in Cheltenham, where he seems to be performing nearly every day. Oh, Eve. It's quiet you're in the studio now. I do love him, but you've got to be, it's definitely got to be on guard, haven't you? It's woken me up for the week.

Right. Wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. Crazy and wonderful. Robbie will be back with us, or one of his young ladies, as he described them. Women in their own right, Laura Hackett and Susie Goldsborough. They do our book reviews for us on a Monday, on the live program and on the podcast here. Eve and I will be with you all.

week. We would love to hear from you. We're loving all of your stuff about uniforms, very much appreciating all of your suggestions for our next book club book. We probably won't decide that until next week, now end of next week. How is the hunker down playlist going? I'm actually off tomorrow. Sorry to confuse things further. Oh my word. Where are you going? It's my birthday. Oh, Eve. Well, that's absolutely lovely. Are you doing something nice? I am going to be in Brighton and I'm just going to spend the day with family and go out for lunch and have a lovely day. Lovely and do you what the weather at the moment in the south-east of England is so beautiful. It's been amazing. It's that really clear, slightly sharper September sky and there's still a bit of warmth in the sun.

So how fabulous. Thank you. So Rose is I think going to be with you tomorrow. So that gives perfect opportunity for you to pressure her on the podcast to start the playlist. Right, our nobble her. Yes. While the microphones are on. Good work. So that will come to fruition. That will appear like magic, probably, by tomorrow evening.

And then are you back Wednesday, Thursday? Yes. Lovely stuff. So we'd love to hear your thoughts on anything that we're talking about is Jane and Fee at times. Dot radio. And do stay safe. And like we said at the beginning, you cannot catch germs through a podcast.

The rest of us in the studio. Just Eve and Robbie are at risk and Rosie tomorrow. Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another off-air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the thing.

case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler.