Off Air... with Jane and Fi - BEST OF 2025: Interviews - Part One

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Happy Monday! Just three more sleeps until Christmas - we hope this will help you drift off soundly, or simply provide you with an excuse to step out of the house and away from the madness for a moment… In this bonus episode, we revisit Jane and Fi’s conversations with Miriam Margolyes, Rick Astley, and Jameela Jamil. Enjoy! If you find yourself at a bit of a loose end after this, why not go and listen to our latest playlist, titled “I’m in the cupboard at Christmas”: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1awQioX5y4fxhTAK8ZPhwQ We’ll be back on Monday the 5th of January.If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to another edition of Off Air. This is a festive, twinkly, sparkly one, a Merry Christmas to all of you. Some of our best bits are included in this stocking. Miriam Margulies is a force of nature, whether you know her from the stage, the screen, or her unforgettable television appearances, one thing is certain she always speaks her mind.

I had the pleasure of interviewing her back in September about her new book, The Little Book of Miriam, an alphabetical compilation of her thoughts, anecdotes, and philosophy of life. It's chunky and perfectly formed like me. And I'm really thrilled with it. I get a physical satisfaction from holding it and stroking it. Do you?

I do. I honestly do. This is actually the first book, you see, because it was sent to me as soon as it came out, as soon as it was printed, because I had to have a look at it. And I was almost in tears with excitement. It really was wonderful. Because, you know, it looks good,

and I love the wit of having me just because I'm very small. I mean, I'm as broad as it's long, practically, you know. Well, I think it really does the trick, and it stands out in a bookshop. as well, which is obviously what we're hoping. We're hoping so. We're very much hoping so. Yes. I stand out in a bookshop a bit too. We've got so much to talk about Miriam

because, I mean, it's called the Little Book of Miriam, but there's absolutely blooming everything in there, isn't there? So? I thought I would put everything in there because I want people now to know me in my entirety. I think, because I know everybody knows that I'm naughty and foul-mouthed and quite funny. but I'm also tender and sympathetic and kindly,

and I want that side of me to be on view as well. So what do you think you've told the reader about that side of view that you've not revealed before? Because it's not chronological, it's alphabetical, I've been able to concentrate on shorter anecdotes that put forward the things that I'm interested in. So I think that is different. It's not just about me from A to B, it's about me from A to Z.

And it is Z, it's not Z, because I'm not American. No, that's always stick with the Z. I learnt lots of lovely things about you reading through the book. I am fascinated by your current domestic setup, and under L for lodgers is a lovely little passage describing how you live in London at the moment. So can you tell us a bit about that? Yes, well I have an intergenerational house Which for someone who has no children is quite brave

Because it's all right having your children with you Because you know where they've been mostly Well maybe not Not so much But I have a I have half of my house Because I can't climb stairs anymore So I decided I have lodgers

On the top bit of my house Which is a beautiful house actually so I didn't want to put a lift in because I could have put a lift and then I'd have been able to get everywhere so I've got two lodgers one is male one is female

one is straight one is gay they're both working which is lovely and they love each other they really get on and George bakes gorgeous cakes

and Emily has fabulous conversation and she's working in television and is very intelligent and George is an actor and he's so gifted so we have a lot in common and I learn from them and they learn from me because I'm I'm quite open about my life and what I believe in and they're just charming and sweet and kind they must have thought that their lucky penny had turned up when Maria Margulies invited them to live in in her house. I know that, I don't want to

obsess on a kind of frisky detail, but I know that they do come in and help you with your underwear, don't they? They help you with your getting your bra on. Yes, a bra duty is a solemn business actually. It's a bit like Compline, I suppose, but the bell rings in the morning and the bell rings

in the evening to go on and to go off. And I don't mind who does it because I can't reach the back because I haven't worked out how to do front bras. There are people who have bras that do up at the front, and I could probably manage that. But the bras I need a little bit more uplift than front bras,

and so I do require help. And I just say, bra duty, and one or other of them pops down to help me. This is fantastic. Is it true that this is all being developed into some kind of a TV show that we'll be able to watch? It is. They won't be playing, well, Emily won't be playing herself. George will be playing himself, I insist. And I don't think anybody else could play me, so I'm going to do it. But they may find somebody better. But yes, it is, it is. And I think it'll be quite heart-rending, really. I think it'll be fantastic. Is it being filmed at the moment? Oh, no, no, it's still, what do they call that, in development? Right.

Yes, I wish I'd known that phrase when I was young. Just constantly say I'm in development. You do say in the book, though, that you're getting a little bit fed up of living in London and actually New Zealand tempts you in some way. It's so beautiful. And it's gentle and it's quiet. And, you know, as you get older, you do need a bit of quiet.

I love raucousness and activity, but I do need to rest sometimes and I think the beauty that you look at and the gentleness of the people and the wonderful Maori stuff that is incredible I've got to know a few Maori people and they are quite special

and their history is remarkable and their music and the haka I mean I went to a rugby match which I loathe, can't stand rugby but my word when they you know even the girls do the and it's, that is a bit thrilling, I must say. So where feels like home, because also you have a home, don't you, with your partner in

Australia? So you're truly international. And so if somebody says, you know, you return to your valley, where do you think of as being your valley? I want it to be Italy now. I'm going to give up Australia because it's too far away and Heather doesn't drive and the village is just that bit too far. for her to get to so I think we're going to sell it which is going to be very sad but Italy is for me the place

okay please don't go too soon no I won't and I'll always keep a place in London because you have to if you're in the business you know you've got to do that can I tell you off in a very oh I love it affectionate are you going to spank me as well

that's later So under eye for intelligence, you say the following in your book. I once described myself as extremely unintelligent, but I no longer think it's sensible for me to say that I'm extremely unintelligent. I can't do IQ tests. I'm completely enumerate, for example, but I can remember telephone numbers. So perhaps a more accurate self-assessment would be that I'm a little bit thick.

Now, Miriam, you're not thick. You're not unintelligent. And when I read that, I just thought, no, don't. say that about yourself. To retain the information that you have in your head, to know all the dick and stuff that you do on stage, to have performed all the parts that you've performed, you are a super intelligent woman. No, I don't accept that for you. I don't actually think I'm stupid, although I can be on occasion, of course. But I really do have difficulty with intelligence tests. I can't cope with them. You know, when you have to put shapes into other

or something like that. I just think, well, I don't see where the join is. I can't do it. And that is a bit anxious making because that's how they decide when you should go into a home, isn't it? So... Yeah, but you've got so many other forms of intelligence.

Yes, I'm good at people. I'm very sharp at people. Although I recently got done by a con man who said he was going to help me with computer and he turned out to be a right old bastard what happened well he i think he's a compulsive liar i don't want to say his name um but he's from dum friece carry on i don't think we can identify him just from that i think i don't want to but but he really were you scammed I wasn't scam but I brought him to my house

he had the keys of everything he never returned the keys he was going to Italy on holiday to sort my computer when I found out what he was really like I soon stopped that no I mean I made a mistake there but it was because I only interviewed him on Zoom

and I think Zoom is not the way to do it Are you sure that you're now safe from him pretty sure Did you involve any authorities or anyone like that? Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I did. Oh, yes, I got a lawyer, send him a lawyer's letter. And that might not do much good, but I've had computer experts checking out my stuff. But you never know, do you? You never know if they can lurk secretly. I think it's terrifying. It is terrifying. How many onions are you on a day at the moment?

Well, I try to get about two or three in I like an onion with macral patte That is thrilling And I do have onion at breakfast If I have breakfast But I met an absolutely terrific taxi driver this morning And he said, I don't have breakfast No, you don't want to, you've got to fast

I said I was fasting before you were born Which I certainly was true, He said, now fasting is the way, you know, because I said, I'm 84 and I'm still fat, and it's stupid. And people sometimes ask me, what would you say to your younger self? And I would say, lose weight. Are you tempted by the injectable weight loss drugs that are available now? No. That is horrifying.

First of all, it's supposed to be for people with diabetes. Well, I mean, you shouldn't be using medicine that is needed by other people. There's a worldwide shortage of a Zempic. No, I certainly wouldn't. What do you think the path in life would have been for a very thin, Miriam Margulies? Is that a different path altogether? You can't tell, can you? You can't push back what happens.

I honestly don't know, but I think that I would have possibly, been richer earlier. I'm rich now, but it's taken a while and perhaps I would have been richer earlier and I might have had more sex. Because people, you know, somebody, Norma Mitchell, god rest of her own,

she actually said, well, I would have gone to bed with you, but you're too fat, you know, so, I mean, there's nothing like telling someone. That was the actress and writer Miriam Margulies and her book, The Little Book of Miriam. is out now. Now, if you want a lesson in how to reinvent yourself, Rick Astley is the man. His memoir never came out in October, and when you hear him talk about his childhood, you may well be tempted to get hold of a copy. We began by speaking about how his Mr. Goodtime

80s sound might not be a reflection of what had really been going on in his life. I think, to be honest, I think most people, there's an element of performance, there's an element of pretend in being a pop star in the 80s there just is and I think it was probably a bit less open you know you didn't we didn't have social media did we didn't have the internet

so you didn't see somebody falling out of a cab quite so much unless it was a paparazzi thing or what have you whereas now the digital person that's travelling with them is like this is gold do you know what I mean and any worries and troubles that people had were sort of kept under wraps really and I think if you refer into for instance

because I did an autobiography last year and I kind of put it all out in that really why I ended up getting on a stage and I think that's because I was running away from something my mum and dad divorced when I was very young I'm youngest to four kids they would have had another son but he passed away before I was born

I lost him to meningitis and I think I've kind of said that it felt like there was a ghost in our house because he was never spoken about there was never a photograph of him I saw one photograph in my life once and it was just, I'm not putting it down to that but I'm saying that my parents

were kind of broken after that and I think that's what really led to them getting divorced as well perhaps and the reason I'm quite okay to talk about it is I've talking to my brothers and my sister about are you okay with this, that I do this biography and stuff and I just wanted to put it out there because I think that's what I was doing

I was running away with the circus to become, you know, for one of a better word, pop star, but to just have a different life and, you know, my dad had a lot of troubles and I think understandably, you know, and I wanted to get away from that really

and just go and find the light rather than the opposite. And do you think now that you're older, all of that does come out in your creativity? Interesting. I think I've drawn on it, definitely. I made a record when I turned 50,

almost 10 years ago now, and the opening line says, the first song are about my dad having a bit of a breakdown in the car and crying. And he's not the crying type, my dad. Sorry, he wasn't the crying type really. And as a young kid that was kind of terrifying because

you're like, this guy's made of granite or what's going on. And I think I put that in the song and I didn't even try to. That's the weird thing. I don't even, I don't know what I consider myself, but I'd write songs. I've written quite a lot of them. But I don't really consider myself a songwriter. I don't

consider myself a musician. I'm a bloke who sung songs and not even, like, got away with it or this, that and the other. I think I'm talented, but I also think I've had a lot of look and I've been in the right place at the right time. And I think sometimes within my way of writing a song, it's just stumbling around in the dark until something happens. So very often I sing something to myself while I strumming the guitar or sat at the piano. And I think, what the hell is that? And the opening lines to that song are about my dad crying in a car. I'm like, where did that come from?

So I don't know whether that came from a conversation I might have had the night before with my wife or one of my brothers or my sister or whether it's just all that stuff is bubbling somewhere for everybody, but I get to put it into lyrics and stuff. So, yeah. And does it help? Do you mean in terms of a therapeutic way?

I think the book was quite therapeutic. I think it was quite nice to do that. It was, it's also a bit weird to kind of tell, secrets and stories in this setting years so that's why as I say I squared that with my brothers and my sister first and because my mum and dad are both dead and passed away a few years back I felt I could actually say whatever I wanted to about the way I was brought up there's a thing in the book really which is like probably the monster part of it in the beginning really to tell the story of that my dad had lost it one morning and we actually we actually lived my dad had a

tiny garden centre he always had a little business of some kind and he was ahead of the curve and he started a little garden centre like a little nursery style one and we lived in a porter cabin on that when I was like 13, 14, 15, 15, 16 going to school, which was a nightmare. Living in a porter cabin and going to a comprehensive school is a nightmare,

but anyway, and anyway, he'd lost it one morning and he was never physical with us. He was never, he was very physical. He would smash things, tear things up, he would go mad, he would go completely bonkers mad, but not physically towards us.

And he did it twice to me once I deserved it so we'll put that down to that's just parenting and being a brat as a kid probably and then this time I didn't I was probably 17, 18 and he just lost it he sort of put me on the ground

and was about to probably steam into me a little bit I think and like I say he never did this so weird and the next eldest brother Mike came out of the porter cabin with a bread knife in his hand put it against his throat and said if you move I will drop you

where you stand. And so, on the one hand, yeah, that's the guy who sang together forever. Yeah, well, it says. But I think, I don't think, for instance, that, that isolated moment is what made me want to sing and be on a stage. No, no, no, no. But I think a lot of things in my life and a lot of, I would say a bit of darkness and a bit, my dad had a lot of darkness around him.

And I just kind of think, I just, I don't want this. And I want to be in charge of my own life. and one way of doing that is to leave to go and be somewhere else physically and so obviously getting a record deal and coming to London was like that's a great start How much did your dad enjoy your success?

I think he was very proud of me I know he was, he had a t-shirt that said I'm Rick Astley's dad so he was proud of me That's a clue there, yeah and you know yeah I know he was proud of that the weird thing is he

he hated pop music of any description he loved Frank Sinatra he actually liked a bit of Beatles he would never admit it but he did used to go around singing My Sweet Lord and things like that so he did like the Beatles a bit and he hated accountants

because he always had a little business all his brothers had little businesses as well and my aunties they all had one actually was weird and so he just hated having to see the accountant and the Vatman and this that and the other the said brother Mike is a chartered accountant

and like a financial director and I'm an ex-pop star from the 80s. So we both had your revenge. So we both fulfil those things, yeah. And yeah, but I also think, if I'm brutally honest, I don't think anybody who gets on a stage is 100% getting on the stage because of what they're about to perform,

whether it's a play, be in a movie or whatever, or sing or whatever. I think there's so many things that drive people for the attention, for the love, for the self kind of like, I'm worth something, because these people say I'm worth something. that comes from something and it's not just and I love music by the way I mean I am literally I've got a studio at home and I am in there every day if I'm at home I'll be in there at some point and if I'm not it feels a bit weird so what were those years like when you didn't have that audience and you weren't out of stage and you were in your shed a lot yeah and you weren't producing lots of music I still always had a music room or a little studio of some kind and I would potter about with things and I kind of well

When I sort of quit, which would have been, I don't know, mid-90s, I guess, or whatever, early mid-90s, our daughter was probably about two by then. And I just felt, I think even her being born just made me think, there's just more to life than this nonsense, do you know what I mean? But also, I was super, super lucky. And I know this sounds, but I love saying this in interviews. I love saying this. I made some goddamn money.

And once you've made some money, you can decide to do things in a very, very different way for not having the money. Do you know what I mean? Because it's not a risk. Do you think there's a squeamishness that people aren't, as you say, they're not willing to say that, are they? I think it's like, oh, it wasn't about the money. I'm like, that's because you've got some. It's like, don't ever say, if you've got nothing

and you make an artistic decision, then yes, it can be about that. It's just about the art and it's about what you want to do. But if you've got enough money in the bank never to worry about paying a bill again and you've paid your mortgage off, then yeah, you can make sense. some pretty creative decisions with that behind you.

And so I get a bit, well, you might have noticed in the tone of my voice. I just, I get the ass sometimes when people aren't honest enough with themselves to go, well, the reason you can make those decisions is because you made a few bob. And so you're not in that position that most people are of like, well, I've got to do this or I've got to do this this way. So, I can't know where we were now. We were in your shed. In my shed.

So, yeah, our daughter was born, and I think something changed. changed in me as every dad or mom, I'm sure, you know. But I think it's sort of changed my thought process about what I've been doing for this last few years before she was born and thinking, do I even really want to be famous? I've had a go at it and I'm not very comfortable with it. I don't particularly love it. It's not, it's fantastic for certain things and it's great for your ego.

And I love to walk out onto a stage and people go, great. That is an amazing feeling. Like, you know, you walk out there, people have bought a ticket. They actually want to be here. It's not even a festival. Festivals I love because they terrify you because you think half of them going to walk away when they go, oh, it's him.

But people have bought a ticket specifically to see you. You've kind of, as long as you're doing the best that you can do that night, you've won because that's what you're there for. Yeah. But yeah, I kind of packed it in. And it was kind of my decision. I'm not fooling myself.

I wasn't at a peak of my powers, blah, blah. but I was probably still capable of squeezing a record or two out and more and I just thought I just don't think I want to do it and I don't think people are desperate for me to do it so we just asked the label would they be cool if they just tore the contract up and didn't have some weird you know like an override weird thing you know and they just said yeah we'll do that and so they did and I had lived a very comfortable cushy comfortable life in Richmond

upon Thames and yeah I was but I also did a lot of therapy in my late 20s and that was partly about things in my life life and things but it was also about my childhood and also about my marriage as well I think it was like we weren't actually married then funnily enough we've been together since 1939 sorry

1988 sorry I was doing the maths in what I was doing yeah yeah sleeps in a fridge don't do that at all kids no we've been together since 1989 sorry I was doing maths in my head and looking it numbers in my head and it came out as 39 um so but we didn't get married till about 13 years ago so um but yeah a lot of the therapy was about not being that dude i guess um and how are you going to deal with that and because obviously even though you've sort of said i quit i don't have a record deal no one's

asking for another record i'm done that's it i never have to promote a record again um you don't instantly become unrecognizable. It doesn't take that long, but it takes a while. Well, your hair, it's your hair, right? It's the hair, exactly. I mean, you're so blessed. Send that into the restaurant first. Get a good seat in the, in the...

So when you were at the school gate and things like that, there was no way you weren't Rick Astley. You've always been, Rick Astley. No, well, that's very, very true, but we all, there were quite a few more famous moms and dads than me. Yeah, okay. So I just, I blended into the grass, to be honest. I mean, it was just, it was like, forget it.

and that wasn't a conscious thing like oh let's send our daughter to stella street school it's just we loved richmond and some friends of ours their kids went to this local school there you know it's a private school it's gorgeous and i think that was one of the things that i didn't struggle with that you know people say oh i struggle sending my kids to private school because i really thought they should be i was like nope no thanks i i went to the local whatever it was and you know it was fine but i left school when i was i left school when I was, I left school the day I was legally allowed to. Right. And I kind of thought it would be good that at least she has the option

to go to what hopefully is a school that can have a bit more time and a bit more what have you. And we'll see how that goes, you know. Just on the hair, you've achieved a magnificent lift there. What kind of a product is it? Is it a foam? Is it a moose? No, the weird thing is, the weird thing is, there is a little bit of something in my hair, but it's not much.

but the weird thing is and I may do a YouTube video of this just to prove it actually but then somebody will say it's AI or CGI or whatever I can go swimming sit down pick my book up on holiday

and 10 minutes later it's like that it's back up yeah it's remarkable it's bizarre is what it is but I think it's and you do need to do that video

but it's had like however many when our daughter was born she had a quiff the day she was born she came out with a quiff. Strong DNA. Yeah.

So I'm just grateful. Definitely do the video. I may have to. That is an internet breaker. I may have to. Yeah. Well, I just want us to get through the interview without mentioning that song.

And I think we more or less have. I think we have. What song? That, exactly. Who comes to your gigs now? What does the audience look like? Obviously, it's kind of of an age that was there when that song happened.

1987. There are some younger people occasionally and when I say younger that could be like kids could be 10 year olds with their moms and dads or whoever. Not many, but some. And then occasionally it'll wander into people being in the 20s and 30s

and you think, again, it's a small percentage but I do, because I look at them and I'm going like, no, they're not with the older people with, they just came here, you know. And I'm like, hmm, that's interesting. But I go to gigs and I look at the audience sometimes and think wow I was not expecting that

but do you think that's the festival influence as well because yeah I think and you did a cover didn't you of the Smith's yeah yeah so you would have met a whole new group there well yeah for sure but that I did that with blossoms and obviously they you know they are more my daughter's age really rather than my age but we have a bit of a

I think because we love those songs so much the age thing didn't really come into it and I'm probably fooling myself here. I'm sure they're well aware of the fact they're on stage with Uncle Rick when we did that. But it's like, I just think that love of those songs, it just broke the boundaries for us for sure. And when we did a couple of gigs actually,

but then we did the Glastonbury one, which was really big. And I think looking at that audience, again, showed you the power of what a really good song will do. It's got nothing to do whether you were born. Even whether you kind of like have ever seen the original,

artists do it because there's no way some of that audience has. They might have seen Johnny Ma and I hope they have. They might have seen Morrissey and I hope they have. But they've never seen the smiths. And I kind of think, well, that's the power of that. That is pretty epic. So is there a contemporary artist

that you would also, maybe you have already covered? Oh yeah, I've done non-stop, darling. I don't have that many hits songs, so I need a few covers when I play. Give us the most recent. Well, I've done a couple of Harry-style songs because simply because they're fantastic. It's not just because, like, he's a big artist so everyone knows them, which they do,

but it's also because the songs are really great, really great. I think he's like, he's one of the redeeming features of pop music, I think, at the minute, because he looks amazing, he's got a great style sense and all of that. He's always pushing that. But the tunes are great. And as a performer, you know, he sort of nails it. He's got everything happening. So when you do your gigs, do you end with, you know what?

I do. Of course I do. Yeah. So you keep them waiting right till the end. Well, also because some of them will leave if I do it like, you know, 10th song, eight songs. Oh, no, they won't. Or they might, you'd be surprised. So we sometimes play a bit of,

it's like Voldemort, I'm going to mention it, we sometimes play a bit of never going to give you up. But we don't, I'm not daft, you know what I mean? We have to keep it till the end. Do you do it in a disguise kind of jazz bongo version first? No, we'll just, I used to get Rob who plays keys to sort of just do a little flurry, and then I'll get the crowd to sing it with me, of thing and then actually say to people like you know you can get your train home now do you know

what I mean because they're off an age I mean they're about my age well this is it yeah they are worried about what time they're going to get back yeah well maybe maybe yeah Rick it's been lovely really really lovely yes yep and what a pleasure to interview somebody who's not taking themselves as seriously as they could do it's all an act is it an act do you walk outside and go oh bow down before me no I think I think I actually genuinely believe that I did so much pretending in my 20s sometimes pretending to be

enjoying it as well, like being on TV somewhere in Europe going, what the hell am I doing? What is this? I once went on a show and well, two shows actually in Germany funnily enough, Germany was mad for TV and the biggest moment in the show

was watching a I'm going to call him a mouse but I think he might have been in something else, a little mouse and it was an overhead camera and if went out the right door they won a prize he was in a maze right and it stopped for everything this is this was the highlight of the show

it's not good for your ego that I'll tell you do you mean and the other one was I was on I was doing like the sound check in the afternoon or whatever for the TV show that night and a guy walks past with a camel across the studio floor and I'm like this is ridiculous what the hell why am I doing this what am I doing it right? Did you get the hump

no very good dear very good and then I looked over and Rod Stewart's about to start warming up to do his thing. I said, fine, that's fine. If it's okay with Rod, bring on the camel, I'm here. Now, Jamila Jamil has something to say about body image, about porn, about where young women find themselves in the world right now. She once called out the Kardashians as double agents of the patriarchy for promoting a man-pleasing ideal of femininity that so few women can ever attain. An actress you might recognize from The Good Place, Jamila is also a podcaster, DJ,

former host of the Radio One chart show and a disability rights campaigner. And earlier this year, she joined us to talk about her podcast, Wrong Turns. So Wrong Turns is a comedy disaster podcast that I have started in an effort for us to abandon toxic positivity

and own the most humiliating and embarrassing and disastrous things that happened to us. And I think that it's time for us to just enjoy and laugh together. And I think this podcast is sort of anti-inspiration, pro-commiseration. Well, you're a woman after my own heart

because I absolutely share that sentiment of not wanting to relentlessly try and turn the negative into a positive, because some of life is just rubbish, isn't it? And let us just be sodden and in the bleakness sometimes. Let us just laugh together. I think it's exhausting. It can be exhausting. It's tedious and it's disingenuous.

And I'm really lucky to have had some of the fun as people in the world come on and share some really deeply personal and hilarious mess-ups in life. The one with May Martin and Bob the drag queen. Now, what happens to Bob actually is really terrifying. Briefly. Which one? Well, the, so he admits that he has a bladder the size of a pea and constantly needs to go to the loo and he found himself on a live comedy show being filmed and he thought he could just hold it in and he couldn't. And actually, do you know what, I was quite upset hearing him retell the anecdote because it is everybody's worst nightmare.

I think the older you get, the bigger the nightmare might become a reality. And he basically was filmed and then lives forever on social media. The video is still up. Wetting self. I mean, it's just awful, actually, isn't it? Yeah, not just a little patch. like he created a small it's a river

a lake perhaps on the stage that was a nightmare but he has a wonderful sense of humour about it and also these things happen our insides fail us constantly it's an embarrassing situation but it's kind of brilliant because then you know that life doesn't end after these embarrassing moments

and I think that's the other point of the podcast is life goes on and this happens to everyone because we keep these things quiet in shame we think we're the only ones and actually it's it's staggering how many of us just live in within a tapestry of mortification yeah it's very much uh in your DNA isn't it this uh willingness to tell people some of the darkest sides of your own life and your own experience but i know that you want to use that to the greater good and for people who aren't

aware of what you've tried to do for body positivity could you just explain it to them i don't think body positivity is my area. I advocate for body neutrality. Body positivity is for a whole other community, but I'm simply trying to get women to stop thinking about their bodies at all. I don't really care if you love or hate your body. Who cares about your body? Let's focus on our brains. It is a deliberate distraction tactic for us to obsess over our exterior rather than build our brains, build our lives, build our experiences, build our happiness. I've watched countless videos of people on their deathbeds because I think they're incredibly valuable, bleak but valuable, in seeing what people regret at the end of their life.

And it's never, I wish I'd spent more time on my appearance. I wish I'd bowed down to the patriarchy more. I wish I'd starved and missed more meals. It's always that they wish they'd spent less time worrying about all of these things, succumbing to ridiculous arbitrary social norms and not having enough fun and not spending enough time with the people they love. When it comes to actively pursuing something that could risk or harm you or even kill you for a societal norm that we know is going to shift, because you and I are both old enough to have been around

all of these cycles again and again and again, anytime you meet the beauty standard, I guarantee it's just about to change. So I think it's a con and I think that we should reject it en masse. And what I'm seeing currently to my disbelief is that if any, we are embracing patriarchal standards more than ever, which baffles me because at least my generation and generations before me, we didn't have the information as to how damaging this was, where this comes from, why we fall into the trap of it, the long-term impacts. Now we do have all of that information. We couldn't have more access to that information. And yet we're taking some of the

biggest risks I've ever seen with our health to meet these norms. And I don't know what's happening. Do people come at you though because actually you are amazing looking? You are beautiful. You have the body that an awful lot of particularly young girls aspire to have and are possibly indulging in, you know, they're definitely indulging in controlled eating in order to get there. So is that problematic? I completely understand people's frustration. but I also can say with my full chest that this exact same face

was not the beauty standard 10 years ago and I was not on magazine covers and girls who look like me weren't which in and of itself shows that these beauty standards are make believe and my face will go out of fashion again at some point so this same exact face and body

has gone in and out and in and out I just went to Cannes festival where I could barely fit my leg in most of the dress So my body might be someone else's ideal but according to my industry standard I'm twice the size I'm supposed to be I have a disobedient body

I'm a size UK 8 to 10 and I was called brave over my body on a photo shoot so it just goes to show that it's all arbitrary it's all nonsense and and I urge people to know that like there is this fear that you're going to be left

behind if you don't succumb to the will of the quote-unquote tribe. And it's a loop. You can't be left behind in a loop. My face and my body will continue to go in and out of fashion forever. And I just refuse to hurry up and meet those standards. I'm going to stay as I am. I'm going to continue to age naturally. I'm going to continue to allow my body to do what it's doing. I've publicly been many different sizes. And I don't think my being slender or currently temporarily for the beauty standard means I shouldn't speak about it because when people who don't meet the beauty standard speak about it, they're called bitter, jealous and they're dismissed. And so if we then say the people who do have too much privilege, then who's speaking about it? It's the same for austerity.

It is the same for race. It's the same for so many different things. We need everyone to join in the conversation and we are such a despicable society that we make it almost impossible for the people who actually should be platformed to have that conversation to do so. I'm interested by your experience at Cannes because there's something happening on red carpets across the world, isn't it? Which is a zempic thinness. Yeah, it's crazy. And, you know, the latest statistics would seem to suggest

that so many women are taking those weight loss drugs, not because they are obese or their health is in danger, but because they want to be much thinner than their normal. normal body size, completely normal, completely natural body size. And the example that we're being shown on those red carpets is absolutely that. It's dangerous thinness, isn't it? It's really scary. And like I said, the sample sizes are that of baby gap.

I had multiple arguments with designers when I was out there because I don't think that that's appropriate. And I wonder what they're, you know, none of the designers and none of the editors of the magazine meet the beauty standards that they project onto the rest of us. And I really think that should be a prerequisite. I think you should walk the walk before you talk the talk because it's all very well for you enjoying your fish and chips

while you're telling all of us to inject ourselves for something that can cause cancer. It's meant to help cancer in some cases. I put that in some cases and in some cases it doesn't because there's also types of... And partially that's also because cancer feeds off of sugar and you're eating less sugar and you're eating less in general but there's thyroid cancer and...

Pancreatic cancer are two of the side effects that I think are on the website of the drugs that people manage to always conveniently leave out. And I have no problem with anyone doing whatever they want to do. My issue is that the current beauty standard has gone back to frail. People are using it to go from slim to super skinny to frail. They don't even want to have muscles anymore. The tagline in the New York Times was the results without the sweat, as if we shouldn't encourage people to exercise.

when we know that women's bone density is impacted, we know that it causes muscle loss, far before it causes fat loss. These are things that we need. We're going to have a miserable menopause without muscle and without bone density and the years beyond. And the thing that disturbs me about this

is the fact that one consistency I have seen since I was 11 years old is that all of these quick fix fad things that have been brought in have the capacity to do extreme long-term damage. not always but in many cases a significant amount of cases and the reason why women in particular are targeted to do things that can hurt you in the long term is because there is this devaluing of women's lives in the long term

because they think men grow with their value with age and we lose ours because our only currency within a patriarchal society is fertility and shaggability and so no one cares what happens to us later so if you get the pancreatic cancer. If you get the osteoporosis, if you get the kidney problems, the IBS, the depression, the muscle weakness, if you have a miserable third act, no one cares because they don't have to look at you anymore. And we have to reject that as a society. All I think about now is my 85 year old self. And what she's going to be thinking about what I'm doing now, what I'm eating, whether or not I'm strengthening my bones, whether or not I'm looking after myself. I

we treat our older selves as if it's something to be embarrassed of. We don't prepare for that act of our lives. Men are taught to build and grow their lives. And women are not taught to do anything other than diminish themselves, reduce, reduce, reduce until we're finally invisible. And we are not here to be servants. It is post-menopause that I find women to be the most hilarious, the most driven, the most clear.

every year I get further away from my 20s I become infinitely more powerful, more confident, more self-assured and I make better decisions most of the time, you know, within reason. But I know that I'm a threat and it's because we're a threat that we used to be burned at the stake and this is just a new way of eradicating us. We're teaching us how to eradicate ourselves. Well, let's not go, let's not go quietly into that good night to be. paraphrase. Can we just talk about men before we get to the end of the interview? I thought something that you said. What are those? About the men who made deep fake porn images of you was really interesting. You called for those men to be treated with sympathy rather than being

vilified. Why? I think we should turn this into you don't have any friends and you don't have anywhere else to go right now and I'm really worried about you that this is how a grown adult man is spending his time because there's just no way that when he was six and he was drawing pictures of firemen and superheroes and Batman and all the people that he thought he was going to be there's no way any boy on this planet dreamed for himself that he would one day be spending his time on this earth that we are lucky to live in taking one woman's face and sticking it on a another woman's body. That's honestly one of the saddest ways I've ever heard of someone using their liberty in their life. I genuinely feel very sad. And so it's not really about

manipulation and it's not about coddling. It's about going, are they okay? Like, have you spent an hour putting my face on someone else's boobs? Are you all right, darling? You're 40. What's going on? Like, how can I help? How can we help? Because I bet this didn't fix things for you. I bet this didn't make your life better. I think turning this into a pity party rather than the shame game is actually going to be more effective and I've experienced that is going, this is very embarrassing. I'm deeply concerned for you. It's much harder to feel powerful when someone's going, you're right, hon. Do you think that you could do that as well as vilifying them? I mean, there has to be some form of punishment, doesn't there? There has to be

form of open shaming of them because all of this lives in a very, very closed world at the moment. Of course. And also there's, and it's very important, like it was a very long essay that I'd written that had lots of stipulations and context within it. And there are certain things that are done that are completely unacceptable, especially the fact that it is used to also create child sex images, like all kinds of different ways in which this can be abused. It should be recognised as an abuse and as a crime. I'm glad that we're legislating against it. But I think our cultural conversation

should be that it's a pathetic way to use your time. It's not scary. You're not scary. You're not powerful. You're not the Joker. You're not a villain. You're a loser.

And that's sad. And actually, I believe there's better for you out there. So I'm purely talking about the social conversation around it should be, babe, what's going on? Jamila Jamil, and her latest podcast is called Wrong Turns. Concluding our festive look back at some of our favourite interviews from the last 12 months. From us both a very happy, peaceful Christmas and a good new year.

Congratulations. You've staggered somehow to the end of another Offair with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The Jeopardy is off the scale. And if you listen to this, you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online, on DAB, or on the free Times Radio app. Offair is produced by Eve Salisbury, and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. Thank you.