Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Beware of the size of your jacket potato! (with Jonathan Dimbleby)

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Jane G is away so Jane M is here to play! Fi speaks about her plans to get a “job-stopper” face tattoo… And Jane M responds with an anecdote of when she walked, camped and pool-partied naked. Plus, Fi is joined by presenter and author, Jonathan Dimbleby, about his new book ‘Endgame 1944: How Stalin Won the War’.You can book your tickets to see Jane and Fi live at the new Crossed Wires festival here: https://www.sheffieldtheatres.co.uk/book/instance/663601If you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] us on Instagram! @janeandfiAssistant Producer: Hannah QuinnTimes Radio Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I really don't. I know, isn't that wild? Yeah. That's actually a thing. Yeah. I hesitate to call anybody's decisions wrong. That's wrong, Jane. Yeah, my favourite disease, condition, is foreign accent syndrome.

Do you know about this? There's a lot of YouTube. I've got no idea what you're talking about. And there is a serious aspect to it in that it often happens to people who've had some sort of head injury. So that is very serious, obviously, not a laughing matter. But there's a clip on This Morning or somewhere like that of a woman who was from somewhere you know in the Midlands or Merseyside and had a head injury and then started speaking in a Chinese accent

and it's a real thing foreign accent syndrome it's a really it's an outcome you're right it's I'm very glad you put the caveat in that there's a very serious aspect to this because now I want to laugh as well.

But if anybody needs cheering up, just, yeah, imagine and go and look. Foreign accent syndrome, it's a real thing. It's out there, people. So do people tend to adopt an accent of somebody that they know or a place that they've been to? Completely random, yeah. Places they've never been or seen or heard. They have no experience of just a random foreign accent.

So if you could choose a random foreign accent or just accent that you might affect for the rest of your life, what would it be? I think to have gravitas, I'd quite like a sort of Scottish lilt. Really? A little bit of a Scottish lilt. But I think in terms of other accents,

I'd probably go French, actually. I'd probably go French or Italian. It's the language of love. Yeah, it's the language of love. Also, yeah, I'd probably go French or Italian. It's the language of love. Yeah, it's the language of love. Also, yeah, I'd probably go French or Italian. I'm trying to think what other ones I like listening to. I mean, Irish, never bad. A nice soft Southern Irish accent.

My granddad's both had nice soft Southern Irish accents. What about you? Latin. What accent is that? I don't know. I was joking. I would, no, you see, I would, I think I'd probably like something that would slightly make my kids chortle.

So I think I'd probably, I would probably be Australian. Would they laugh at you if you were Australian? They'd laugh at me, yes, a lot. So sometimes when we were watching Married at First Sight Australia we did find ourselves slipping into Australian accents and

yeah I don't know why and we've got so many listeners in Australia so I don't want to offend anybody at all ever but I find it easier to say tougher things with an Australian accent than I would if I were to go like you

for maybe the lilt of Dundee yeah it's just whenever I sit in for Hugo Rifkind I feel like I have to apologise for not sounding like Hugo Rifkind because it's very nice to listen to he's barely got a brogue well he's a posh Scot isn't he

just occasionally there'll be something, but I don't feel... I was listening to Michael Gove on Times Radio this morning. A little plug there for the radio station, for the on-air radio station, Jane. Feel free to do the same thing. And I love that accent. That's East Coast Scottish,

and it really bounces. It bounces along, bounces along. Can I just sledgehammer in another accent reference East Coast Scottish, and it really bounces. It bounces along, bounces along. So, look, we'll take all four. Can I just sledgehammer in another accent reference to wave my friendship bracelets at you and tell you that I was listening to a lot of Scandinavian accents this weekend. Jay, where have you been? I was in Stockholm to see Taylor Swift.

Now, how was Taylor Swift? Do you know what, Fi? It was so joyful, the whole thing. She plays and sings for three and a half hours straight. Over 45 songs, you know, loads of the bangers. She doesn't stop skipping and dancing and she looks like she's having the best time. Just the energy level.

It's just like a big party. It was brilliant. I think I enjoyed it maybe more than the teenagers I took to the show. They enjoyed it, but I had the best time. I loved it. So how does it go in a concert which has that many songs in? Because actually most would have, I don't know, what, somewhere between... 25 and 30, if you're doing well.

Yeah, God even, no, 30's quite a lot. Yeah, 30's a lot. So isn't there a moment where everyone kind of goes, Oh God, really? Checks their watches and thinks, how are we going to get out of here alive? Yeah, the teens were exhausted. I mean, they were flagging. I kept reminding them how Taylor was feeling.

It is a long time, especially because you don't want to miss anything, so you don't go to the loo for three and a half hours. So there's very long queues for the toilets leaving the Friends Arena in Stockholm. Yeah, it is a long time, but I think she's so prolific and even with 45 odd songs there are loads that i would have wanted to hear that she didn't get around to playing

but she does she does do it in eras so you know you start with early stuff um it doesn't go necessarily uh consecutive through the album sort of chronologically but she does go album by album and pick some from each um and actually what was really interesting was some of the albums that i don't love that aren't in my sort of top three taylor albums i really enjoyed live so folklore find it a bit boring it was wonderful live i know sorry i know that's you love it you love midnights as well not one of my favorites very good live okay i'm red well could i just say fee and i are also both dressed in our red era today. We look matching.

I look like I'm dressed as Barbara Bush for the Republican National Convention. No, you don't. You look, not Barbara Bush, you look more relaxed than me. I can't wear this dress between November and January because it's just Christmas red. Yours is Christmas red as well. Yeah, it's true.

And if I have some green earrings, then it's like Santa Claus is coming to town. But yes, we're both in our red era. Red and 1989 are my favourite albums and she did play those beautifully. And there was an outfit for Reputation where she wore a one-legged sequined jumpsuit, which I now can't stop thinking about

and might have to get one of. I'll wear that next week. Could you? about and might have to get one of. I'll wear that next week. Could you? I'm really struggling to get my head around that. I'll get Patrick Grant to make me one. And then, yeah, I'll wear that. Yeah. I think Taylor Swift has just done the most remarkable thing, hasn't she? Because I bet every single person in the auditorium and probably your teenagers who you went with and you feels an affinity with her and that she really, somewhere in that enormous canon of work, she's written a song that just speaks to you.

It just speaks to you and it is your life. Completely. But she's been writing songs and has been successful since she was 13 years old. Absolutely. So actually she has no understanding of the normal life of a teenager. But to pluck from somewhere in the ether

that isn't her own personal experience, lyrics and stories that make perfect sense to those of us who just grew up in suburbia, you know, our lives didn't touch that kind of glamour, is remarkable. Well, she's very good at doing that thing that they always tell you to do, which is taking the specific and making it and generalising it, you know, it's sort of, it's

the specifics of the story. But I do, I do remember the, I saw her the first time I saw her play in 2013 at the Country Music Awards in Nashville. And Red had been released a year earlier. And she played this acoustic version of Red with these greats from country music with Vince Gill, this acoustic version of Red with these greats from country music with Vince Gill and people like that and Alison Krauss. And it was the most beautiful version I've ever heard. And I'd just been through a big breakup and was quite heartbroken. And I love that song anyway. But like sometimes I just YouTube that clip

and just remember exactly how I felt sobbing in the audience at the country music course. And I think she was 23 and she'd written this song, you know, that's still, I think she was 23 and she'd written this song you know that's still I think very evocative about how you feel about someone who's driven you crazy and even though you know it's sort of it's all gone absolutely tits up you can't stop thinking about it yeah you know um how dare somebody break your heart Jane would you like you like me to go back, go in? Yeah, I'll give you their address. Yep, no problem at all. Right, we've got so...

They're dead now, it's fine. Oh. No, they're not. Oh, gosh. I had to fashion so many different evocative O's there. We've got fantastic emails to go through this week. We've got so many of them, we're going to have to spread them out during the week.

And just to say thank you to everybody who has written in to our Go for a Tote, Get a Friend, Get a Friend, Go for a Tote, Buy a Tote, Get a Friend, whatever it is that we're doing with the tote bags. We've got a lot of them and we're going to choose a couple of

winners on Thursday. I think you could spread this out a bit more over the summer as well and do Totes on a Boat. Totes on a Boat? Yeah, I think we could, you know, sail around the country could you know sail around the country trying to remember what the catchphrase is yeah so it's more the mechanism that has slightly thrown us so i think the idea still is recommend us to a friend the friend writes in and asks for a tote and you both get a tote yeah i think that's what has anyone got a tote yet no don't be silly manage your expectations people uh but the totes are on their way to you but we will do that big tote talk on thursday okay uh so waxing appointments and inappropriate emojis i

think is where we'll start with a really lovely one from julia uh who says having reached 50 last year i finally gave to very focal glasses. Something bad's going to happen, isn't it, kids? Having parted with £500 of my hard-earned cash, yes, I'll have the thinner lenses. Oh, go on then. Yes to the non-reflective coating, a woman after my own heart.

They are nothing short of miraculous, I can now see. But there was a year of jeopardy, pre-very focals, where my arms weren't long enough for me to read or write text messages so when the whatsapp from the lovely beautician lady to remind me of my upcoming appointment came through I thought to myself I can't see well enough to type so I'll play it safe with an emoji this is a reminder about your 3pm waxing appointment she

sent thumbs up emoji I sent but it wasn't what I'd sent her it was only towards the end of the appointment the next day once she'd had the chance to check I wasn't livid with her that she showed me her phone and my message I had in fact sent her the middle finger and Julia also has one GCSE and A-level exam taker in the house. So, deepest sympathies to you. Julia has experienced the feel free to test me on mangrove forests or an inspector calls day and I'm just going to say back at you, Julia, because I've

recently done cliff erosion, pyroclastic flows, neutral tones, the poem and Macbeth and I never, ever, ever want to hear from any of those topics again in my life and neither do my kids. Can we stay with waxing for a minute?

You knew I was going to go straight there weren't we? Yes. I really enjoyed this anecdote actually, was it on Thursdays? Thursdays off there maybe? About the couple who went for the intimate waxing together. Before their wedding. Before their wedding. I very much enjoyed it.

Marie has written in to say, just listening to the conversation about the modern day trend for his and her pre-wedding day waxing. Does anyone remember the trend for women having a perm a few days before their wedding? I know that seems totally bizarre now, she says,

but it was very popular in the late 70s and early 80s. Fashion aside, difficult to know why anyone would choose to look like Hilda Ogden or Deirdre Barlow on their big day. Maybe the next trend

will be intimate perming. I'm imagining tiny rollers and perming solution. Or perhaps not, she says. Um, yeah. Perming. Perming.

I mean, that's a whole new world, isn't it? Have you had a perm? No, never had a perm because I have naturally curly hair. So I spent most of my life beating the curls out of my hair.

I know. Why are you beating them out? You always want what you haven't got, I suppose. How curly would it be? Really curly. I'm going to bring you a picture tomorrow of me with dark curly hair. Okay. Which is what I really look like.

Intriguing. Listeners, I have a blonde bob at the moment, which is quite straight. And it does suit you. Thank you. I'm finding it hard to imagine the curly hair. Well, when you see me with dark curly hair, I look very Celtic with dark curly hair. Yeah.

And I went blonde, can't remember, same breakup probably, went blonde and then went blonde too fast and it all broke off. So then I had to have the pixie crop. This person was trouble, wasn't he? They had a legacy. There's another Taylor Swift song about that. Yeah. But just to say on waxing,

I know that you and Jane were sort of pontificating about the whys of the waxing. Well, pontificating is a strong word. Discussing. Discussing with nuance, Jane. I think that's what we're searching for. I mean, it is the pornification of aesthetics. I mean, that's what it is. It's that people, people see particularly female body parts in porn before they actually get to see any of them in

real life now. And so I think they basically assume that women don't have hair there and then there's a lot of pressure on young women to look like that and there is from what I have read and understood um you know young men being kind of shocked and horrified if they do come across uh female pubic hair because they just don't think it's meant to look like that so young women I think are under an awful lot of pressure to have everything off. Yes. Oh, no, I'm sure you're right. I find it a very bizarre, one of the many bizarre dualities of female emancipation, really. It just, it seems odd. Are men being encouraged to be as waxed as well i think that's definitely started yeah yeah

i think young men uh are much more likely to have manscaping than anyone over the age of sort of 35 yeah definitely but that goes along with a whole um you know young men are much more likely to be much more body conscious as well um partly because of social media but also porn and yeah um they're more like to have eating disorders than men used to be yeah tell you what the interesting duality about female emancipation is you were talking about seeing women at the lido with more hair than um perhaps you know 20 years ago interestingly lots of young women have all their pubic hair taken off but grow their armpit hair i really don't i know

isn't that wild yeah that's actually a thing yeah that's i i hesitate to call anybody's decisions wrong but that's wrong jane well it's got no pubic hair but long armpit hair please do feel free to tell us yeah that's bizarre though. That's really bizarre. Isn't it? But yeah, I'm really cheering, you know, all the way out of the showers in the Lido when there are lots of women who are just being who they are and not being waxed.

But we have a very, very broad spectrum of clientele in the Lido. So there are also an awful lot of completely hairless beauties too and then there's tattoos as well which i'm afraid i'm quite judgmental about sorry about that we might say that for tomorrow i just think sometimes they don't make sense sometimes they're so beautiful and really really lovely but then but then you kind of it's a little bit like having the eras tour across your body. Yeah. You know, when none of them match.

David Beckham, I just think, oh my goodness, mate. They just, they don't all make sense together. No. They're just a great big tattoo soup. Yeah, and I do think, I think David Beckham could have stopped just before it looked like he'd just got out of Belmarsh. You know, it's the ones on the neck and underneath his hair.

Maybe it was before the plugs. I don't know. Oh, my. Okay. But I do think, I like a tattoo. And I don't actually mind a clashy tattoo. Oh, you see, I really like a tattoo, but I really mind a clashy tattoo. Oh, you see, I really like a tattoo, but I really mind a clashy tattoo.

It just seems very, very messy. Sometimes I want to move the tattoos on people's bodies. And especially when they're permanently going to be ruined in their aesthetic beauty by a bikini bottom or a bra strap. I find that just really annoying. A placing of tattoo can be... Yeah. But look, tattoos, I intend to go there much, much later in life

with my very, very elderly skin. As if you're getting a spider on the face. Very much. A job stopper. That's what I'll be getting for. A job stopper. I also... If anybody...

I would love to hear about the most amusing tattoos you've ever seen because John Stones, the footballer, who I absolutely love, he's such a beautiful man, has got a tattoo of one of his old teacher's faces on his arm, which is quite weird, and some other footballer on his upper thigh. And I just find it very amusing that such a beautiful man

has got the oddest, I have to say, un-aesthetically pleasing tattoos in very prominent places on his body. And a teacher, gosh. That's something, isn't it? It's quite a commitment. I wonder whether you have to ask. You have to ask, do you think? I'm not sure that it looks so much like the teacher

that you'd necessarily know. Mr Brown's not going to get stalked in the street. I saw you on John Stones. Now, please do not use my name. It's absolutely fine. You can always be anonymous in our email inbox. Fi recently wondered why her kitchen junk drawer became known as the man drawer, and here goes.

It's because it's full of things you were once attracted to and needed in your life. Now you can't find much use for them, but are reluctant to let them go for old time's sake. And you think that maybe in the future, you'll remember what it was that made you want them in the first place. There we go i love

that it's very good yep um we've also got lots and lots of explanations about the co-op as well and i'd like to thank all of you uh particularly steve uh for detailing the fact that there wasn't ever just one co-op because the whole point of the co-op is it was cooperatives so before they became instantly recognisable by either the blue signage or the yellow signage or whatever, it's because they were all individuals under a great big umbrella. I'd not thought of that, and it's stupid of me not to have thought of that, but thank you for solving that for me.

Now, I need to be a little bit careful how I approach this one in terms of pronunciation. Laura has written in to say, you mentioned kebabs, I think Jane mentioned kebabs, didn't she, after student boozing. At Hull University in the early 80s, we used to finish off a night of drinking by visiting the back of a local bakery. In the early hours, the bakers would pull small loaves of bread straight from the oven, fill them with luscious bacon and sell the resultant fudge to us. Warm hearts and hands in the North Sea wind. Fudge.

I have never heard of this. Neither have I. No, which is why I had to be very careful. But I've led a very sheltered life, Jane. I love the idea of just some hot bread with bacon and sort of flogging it out the back of a bakery. Yeah. Sounds delicious.

And there are quite a few places that do that, aren't there? There are quite a few nice restaurants in London where towards the end of the evening they put out their beautifully, deliciously made food to make it available to the late-night revellers. It's a tabloid term, isn't it? Have you ever phoned anyone up and said, would you like to come and revel with me tonight?

Late. Late. Late. Meet you by the revelling station. Liz says, I've never understood who's buying the non-instant emoji isn't that blissful who is thinking that they want the diarrhea to stop but they have to hurry any time at all will be fine um danny has written in, actually helpful, saying,

promote for a tote could be a catchier tagline than tell a friend get a tote bag. She's not going to remember that one, Danny, but it was a good try. She also said on the subject of food, delicious food, as an end note, going all the way back to last time I was here, I know you love a spud you like. Did you hear about the lawyer last week who fell asleep in court because she had a heavy jacket potato? And it sent her right to sleep.

Which also does remind me of one of my favourite stories about Brian Harvey of East 17, who blamed the fact that he ran over himself with his own car on the fact that he'd had a large jacket potato at lunch. And it made him so sleepy, he fell out of the driver's side and ran himself over. Oh, Brian. Brian, Ollie.

Beware the size of your jacket potato at lunch, kids. I didn't realise that jacket potatoes had such a suffering effect. Fetidums. Do they? I always thought... They're like morphine. A better carbohydrate than a great big baguette. But that's why France

is mostly asleep in the afternoon, isn't it? Because we've had a very large baguette. I do want to move to France one day so I'm not going to be rude

about the place at all. Right, this one comes from Danny who says, hello Fee and Jane, both OG Jane and cover teacher Jane. You've got so many

different names. Somebody has started referring to you as second-hand Jane. Second-hand Jane. Which we've said we're not going to use as your unique Jane. Thank you, like a shiny penny. I've told my mum to listen. I'm not sure if it counts because technically she's not a friend. This is in response to promote for a tote,

which Danny says would be a better tagline. Basically, you've all got better taglines than our own tell a friend, get a tote. But on that subject, I call my parents Mummy and Floppy. It used to be Mummy and Daddy, but then one day when we were kids, we were playing dogs and made my dad pretend to be a bloodhound called Floppy.

And since then, it's stuck for everything. We refer to their bedroom as Mummy and Floppy's room. We have Floppy's office at Mummy and Floppy's room. We have Floppy's office at home and Floppy's school. He's a teacher. But when I'm talking about them out and about, I say my mum and dad, so people think I'm normal. Which is very, very good. But also, you know, there is a connotation there, isn't there?

Which outside of your home, people might find a little bit strange. I'm not sure how much your dad would love it. By the way jonathan dimbleby is our guest on the podcast today he is in talking about his latest book which is an absolute whopper about the end of the second world war and the part played by stalin in that so we will get to him and also he's quite a close personal friend of the king so it's an interview also about the royal family and about the very, very red portrait. But obviously something's stuck in our minds as we've both come in as Santa Claus today.

So we shouldn't be rude about Jonathan Yeo's picture. A couple more from you. This is from Antonia. My sister and I are excited to come and see you in Sheffield. Yes, please. What's happening in Sheffield, Fi? Oh, thank you. I'm going to put on see you in Sheffield. Yes, please. What's happening in Sheffield, Fi? Oh, thank you. I'm going to put on my exciting Try and Sell Something voice.

So in Sheffield on May the 31st, Jane and I are doing a stage show version of the podcast. And our guest will be the Reverend Richard Coles, Darling Dickie, as we like to refer to him. He describes himself as a national trinket. So we're calling the evening a national trinket and two regional baubles. And you can still buy tickets. Some seats are available. And we look forward to seeing you there.

Thank you. That was a wonderful commercial interlude. Antonio continues, last night I dreamt the seats had such tall backs that we had to watch you on a mini screen like a plane. They don't have those, I would just like to say at the crucible but there was also airline style food served also i don't think it's happening at the crucible i'm not sure where this mix-up comes from as i'm only off to anglesey for my holidays she says uh anyway i hope the view is better when i get to see

you in the flesh i'm expecting to be starstruck but we we are knowing the expected end time so i can plan my train back to hope and she says i like this yes i live in hope which is only a really good gag if you do know the area hope is about you know 35 minutes from sheffield okay but it's a very good it's a good gag if you're from kind of you know somewhere between manchester and sheffield i can guarantee that everybody in the auditorium will have planned their journey home before they plan their journey there because that's our type of audience and in fact jane and i have planned their journey home before they planned their journey there because that's our type of audience. And in fact, Jane and I have planned our journey home.

And if you want to come and have a quick drink with us and say hello, we're going to make ourselves available and with refreshments in the interval because actually we have got a fast train back to London to catch. Otherwise, I think we'll be caught short in Sheffield overnight, which is very difficult because Jane won't have packed her tea bags and her ammonium. And I've got to get back to let Nancy out. So in all seriousness, come and see us in the interval if you are coming to Sheffield. I'm just going to squeeze one in from Pat who says a friend

found great solace in walking alone, but I found it difficult because my mind raced but because you're listening to the podcast you're now able to stroll in the beautiful botanic gardens in Edinburgh without a care in the world listening to yourselves well Pat that is really magical and do you know what Jane the other Jane and this Jane we really like hearing about where people listen to the podcast and we had just been speculating as to lots of people listen to us on dog walks. And we wanted to catch the moment where somebody is listening to one of us saying, are you now bending down to pick up the warm dog poo?

Because if you are doing that at this exact moment, then spookily, we are on the same ley lines and we'll be friends for life. Speaking of walking alone, I'm almost finished. Here you are, the David Lickles book. You are here. You are here, here you are. I'm not even reading it on my Kindle.

I'm reading it in hardback and I still can't get the title right. Do you like it? Do you know what, Fi? I love it so much. I love it so much. I loved your interview with him so much. And, oh gosh, it's just beautiful. It's absolutely beautiful. It's just, oh, I mean gosh it's just beautiful it's absolutely beautiful it's just

oh I mean it's poignant and so funny and I actually feel like she's almost like an older version of Emma from one day in another life do you know I mean that she's just so funny and self-deprecating and I do think David Nichols is that rare thing who writes women so well. A man who can write a funny, clever, layered, complex woman and just do it perfectly and make her so appealing. And also make it real enough for men to want to read it too. So Ed Vasey had got hold of a copy of Your Hair and he was raving about it too. And as just one tiny example i know so many men who really like his writing as well and you're right

i think it's incredibly rare so as a woman you read it and you just think uh you you're grateful to him for knowing things actually aren't you absolutely about. About the female condition is just really lovely, which then makes his male characters really heartwarming and believable too, because you're just invested, aren't you, with your own sense of self while you're reading it. I think David Nichols is one of the nicest people to talk to as well. There's no question that he ducks. He's thoughtful and he's funny. So yeah, that would be my summer read that book i think it's it's just wonderful and also because it's just about really hating walking i know lots of our listeners really love walking maybe it's something that i'll get to later in

life but i mean i'm just absolutely with marnie on the blisters and the sweaty boobs and all of that yeah you haven't even tried it naked, which I have. I thought we might get through one episode. One episode, Mulkerins. Here's Jonathan Dimbleby. Jonathan Dimbleby's latest book may well be about the detail of 1944 and how two million Red Army soldiers fighting on the Eastern Front changed the direction of World War II. But it's also a book hugely relevant to today.

It draws an important line between a point in history and where we are in the present with the advances of Putin into Ukraine. More on that in a moment. The book also draws on previously untranslated German and Russian sources, many the words of ordinary soldiers, the ones who often saw the most but are heard the least. And Jonathan is with me now. Lovely that you're in the studio with us.

Thank you very much indeed for coming in. It's very nice to be with you. I have to say that in the book, it is that testimony of the ordinary man and it is a young man's voice every time isn't it that really really got to me where were you taking these voices from and how come we haven't heard them before some of the voices have appeared in other places in small books published a long time ago, the Russian voices in particular have not been heard very much. And they, for me, they are extraordinarily powerful. You get all the heroics of propaganda on both

sides, pale beside the reality that people, as you just said, were experiencing. People expressing frustration, pain, fear, depression, cold, writing letters to their loved ones, saying, I hope to see you again, and then not seeing them again. And finding that, it was in the archives, but I had a wonderful Russian researcher called Lyuba Vinogradova, who has become a great friend. She's a brilliant historian, brilliant writer,

and also loves doing high-quality research. I was very strongly dependent upon her work. I don't even, I'm afraid to say, having travelled all through Russia in my life, I don't speak a word of Russian, apart from where's the restaurant. Well, it's good of you to admit that. I mean, I do think it helps tell the story so much, doesn't it? Because as the reader, it pulls you back in all of the time to the misery that was being suffered.

You have to do that. I mean, the overarching theme of the book, which is why it's called How Stalin Won the War, is that the massive preponderance of Soviet force was what really destroyed Hitler's armies, particularly in the summer of 1944, finished them off when 300,000, within a fortnight, 300,000 German troops were surrounded, killed, captured or wounded, which broke the back of the German army. The strength and the certainty which the big three, Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin, were well aware of well before 1944. The certainty was the power of the Soviets

would drive them as far west as Stalin wanted to go. So when you look at the importance of D-Day, which was an astonishing achievement, incidentally, it was important, but it was as important for stopping Stalin getting too far west, had he wished to do so, and we don't know whether he would have done so, as important to doing that as it was destroying the German army and therefore the defeat of Nazism.

So are you trying to change our narrative of the Second World War? I think what I'm trying to do, there's been a paucity of history that looks in... I mean, that's a big book, it's a long book. I hope it's a good read, because if you don't write books that people want to read, you might as well stay at home and, you know, read the books yourself and then go to sleep.

you might as well stay at home and, you know, read the books yourself and then go to sleep. I try to write a narrative that takes you forward with a quite extraordinary personal drama at every level. The ordinary soldier, their commanders, the rows, the conflicts, the reality of what it is to make decisions, the tensions between Russia, Britain and the United States and not least between Roosevelt and Churchill

had a very different view of what the war should be. And yes, I would like people to have a bigger understanding that the Soviet Union was critical to victory. We were ancillary to victory. It's very uncomfortable. Most of the books that have been written tend understandably to focus on the Western Front where our relatives, our grandparents and grandparents

fought and in too many cases died. But the disparity of death, if you put it as crudely as that between the two sides, you know, the Russians in the war altogether, including civilians, 27 million lives. Nine million of those were soldiers fighting in battle. These are huge figures compared with less than a million tragic deaths on the Western front. So you've got a disparity, and I think it's quite important for two reasons. First of all, to understand the history.

Secondly, it does help one understand rather better, I think, the way in which Russia now, Putin's Russia, looks out on the world. And Putin's Russia is deplorable in my book in every single way. There's no redeeming feature of which the invasion of Ukraine, and oddly I was writing about Ukraine in my book in 1944 in the same towns, the same cities, the same rivers as we've been hearing so much about in Ukraine. But one more important fact is that for many Russian people, leave aside the fact that the media is controlled

and therefore it's very, very difficult for them to get any other story rather than the lies that pour out of the Kremlin, there's a deep sense that NATO is a threat, deep sense that NATO is a threat, because the West is a threat, and they're indistinguishable in many Russians' eyes. And also that Russia was once a great empire, a great state,

and it was under Stalin, and it was before that under the emperors. And Putin represents a restoration of pride for many Russian people. And that's a, you know, we don't understand that. It's quite difficult to form, I think, useful judgments. And if we can't understand that he is as willing as Stalin was to throw people into battle, and they've got many more people to throw into battle than the Ukrainians have, and can go on doing it far longer. If we don't understand that, it's quite difficult to make a judgment about what is the possible outcome, apart from many

more millions dying. And that's exactly what your book really helped me to understand. You know, this massive, massive loss of life, but because it comes with a sense of patriotism and a sense of heroism and a sense of belonging to a state that somehow can ask that of you, that does help us to understand just how far Putin will be prepared to go. It's not our matrix, is it? That's not our way of thinking about a war. He has, I mean, Putin is clever. He's also shown himself to be strategically incompetent because he thought he could, he genuinely clearly thought and half believed, I suspect, that he could walk into Ukraine, walk to Kiev,

which of course was called Kiev. Is he clever, Jonathan, or is he just so backed up by power? He's been clever in the people he's surrounded himself with, in taking out his opponents, in being aggressive and silencing people, but is that clever? Is it a clever man? and silencing people, but is that clever? Is it a clever man? I think he's astute. I think he judges quite... I don't think he judged very well

the fact that NATO would be so resilient. I suspect he never thought that the states that had hitherto not been in NATO, the Baltic states, Sweden, Finland, those last two particularly, that they would seek to join NATO out of fear. Don't think he forced... No, he's a clever manipulator, an operator, a political operator domestically,

working his way through, concealing what his plans and intentions were and gradually, gradually reaching the point where he was the emperor, which is effectively what his position is. And no one dares say the emperor has no clothes. What do you imagine his future and his end to be? Well, I was advised by a very good friend, a great historian,

not to take my book beyond the year 2014. It's only the last 5,000 words, because your book needs to be read in 20 years time and if you start saying what you think is going to happen and you get it wrong, then people will say well the whole book's wrong. But for

you, Fi, I would speculate this. I don't think he's going quick. I think that everything is uncertain because we don't know he's going quick. I think that everything is uncertain because we don't know what's going to happen in the American election, which is going to be critical in respect of Ukraine. My own feeling has long been that that part of the world has always been states changing boundaries. Poland's boundary changed at the end of the Second World War it went 200 miles westwards at Churchill's and Stalin's behest it's a territory that has always been disputed and if we just talk about victory we are deluding ourselves we may be giving

superficial support but actually it's profoundly misleading you cannot defeat you well you can you can defeat everyone with nuclear war we can defeat ourselves by nuclear war but that's not going to happen and neither side in my view but there has to be a negotiation and my suspicion is that in the end i don't know how much more blood will have to be spilt and one of you know you touched early on about the heart-rending stories and the the we forget when you hear um you know i'm a military diplomatic historian but when you hear some armchair politicians and and analysts talking about what has to be done and what will be done forgetting that there are people there at all. It's all just machines and strategy. You forget the blood and spilt guts,

the horror that is in that book in parts. Not because I want to, you know, bury my hands in the blood, but because we need to know that that is what warfare is like. Now, I don't know how long that goes on, but my guess is, in the end, I don't think the Russians will give up Ukraine. We'll give up, sorry, Crimea. And I think it'll be very difficult for them to be driven out of the Donbass, the east of Ukraine, where they're so heavily entrenched.

So hatred amongst the young, I'm quite certain, in Ukraine for loathing, much deeper loathing than ever before for Russia, but also not much enthusiasm for going into the trenches to die and therefore saying to themselves, there must be some kind of temporary solution, even if it's like the north-south divide between the two Koreas. That would be a lot better than a lot more dying. But you're absolutely right. even if it's like the north-south divide between the two careers, that would be a lot better than a lot more dying. But you're absolutely right.

The scorpion's tale of history will flick back. It always does. It always does in generations. Can we talk about some of the other things in your life as well? Because we're particularly keen. Depends what they are. Well, they will be about the royal family, Jonathan. Please don't leave the studio now. What a surprise.

Yes, well, you are a friend of King Charles and you made what was at the time one of the most remarkable documentaries with him and a book about him. And I mean, I'm almost loathe to ask you this. I think it is so difficult when someone who you know and admire and really like tells you that they are seriously

unwell. It brings into very sharp focus how you feel about them, how you see them as a human being. So I wonder how you felt when you heard or you were told, I don't know whether you were told in that the king was very unwell? I knew and I was very shocked. And like everyone, when they heard about it, they thought, what does this mean? How bad is it? How ill is he? I very soon discovered that he is the most... Well, I knew it really, because he's had to be resilient

all through his life for all sorts of reasons, that as soon as it was clear that the doctors were saying that he could start doing things again, he was chafing at the treatment. Not very nice treatments, of course. Anyone who knows anything about cancer knows that treatments are not fun. You don't say, oh, whoopee.

You know, he always said, whoopee, I didn't wake up in my cot and say, whoopee, I'm going to be king one day. I don't think he said, whoopee, I've got cancer, let's have some treatment. No-one does. But he was immediately frustrated because he believed so strongly in the role so he wanted to go and do the things that this year was where he was going to do some of which he couldn't do mercifully the relief i know there must have been when he was told you can go on d-day to normandy uh told

you can do the trooping the color colour. These things matter to him both symbolically because he's head of state. These are, you know, if you have a head, okay, don't have a head of state if you want, or don't have an unelected head of state, but if you've got a head of state, there are things you do representing that state. They're important to him in that sense.

He also happens to care, you know, I think the D-Day thing, particularly. He's been colonel of regiments. He's colonel of the paratroop regiments. He knew these people. He cared about them. He saw them when they came back and went off to operations. He wrote to widows.

These things matter to him in a personal sense. He's a person with powerful emotional intelligence and very alert antennae. You could see just how much people wished him well and really loved him, actually. At the garden party, there were some amazing photographs of people gathered around him, you know, just beaming at him, wanting to kind of, you know, give their energy to him. But one of the things that so many people want, Jonathan,

is for that family to be a bit happier, for them to all hug a bit more, kiss and make up. And I wonder whether you would be able to give us any insight, obviously it's not going to be very personal insight, into what might happen between the king and his youngest son. The only insight I can give you is to quote from Tolstoy's first sentence of Anna Karenina. Damn, I was hoping for something so much more personal there, Jonathan, but give it to us. Well, essentially what it says is all interesting families have element, it doesn't say it in exactly these words, all interesting families have tendencies to be dysfunctional in one way or another. You tell

me a family that doesn't have dysfunction, I'll tell you a boring family. Yeah, do you think they'll be all right in the end? I don't know the answer to the question okay uh can i talk to you well tried fee yes i did try my very best shot just missed the top right hand corner i think uh can i just ask you for your thoughts also about assisted dying and i'm sorry to leave this right to the end because we only have a couple of moments time and i know it's a subject very very close to your heart through personal tragedy. Yes, it is. And very briefly, I strongly support the right to an assisted death for people who are terminally ill and who are of sound mind. I have a great deal of sympathy for those who fear that this is a slippery slope,

those with disabilities, for instance. I don't believe that the legislation that I think will, in one form or another, come before Parliament will leave that risk open. I cite only one example in the United States of Oregon, where it's been for a very long time. Legislation will be very similar, I think, to what will be introduced in Westminster Parliament

after the election would be my guess. It has given the right to die to many people on those narrow terms. And I think I'm right. Only 1% has actually exercised the right. The right to die is what my brother, my beloved brother, wanted, was the right. Not that he was necessarily going to exercise that right. He wanted to have the right. I don't know whether he would have exercised it or not. What I do know

is that his life and the life of many, many people have been, are and will be in this law changes diminished by the lack of that right. Well, I'm sorry to end on such a sad note, but thank you very much indeed for your wisdom and expertise about that. It's been lovely to chat to you, Jonathan, really, really lovely. And Jonathan's book is called Endgame 1944, How Stalin Won the War. And it comes with a hard recommend from me. Jonathan Dimbleby, what a pleasure to talk to him. Now I know that Jonathan is a man, he's a polymath, isn't he? And he's a man of great intellect and says very, very interesting things and you would have been gripped by that interview. But some of you will still be wondering when and where Jane Mulkerran's did her naked walking. So that was a little titter that we had before going

into the Jonathan Dimbleby interview. So where? Have you been naked rambling? Yeah, I went naked rambling. Two summers ago, I very foolishly said to my editor, we should do something about this big rise in naturism that's going on in the UK. And she just looked me up and down and said, off you go then. And so I spent a month doing lots of naked activities around Sussex. I went naked camping. Wouldn't do that again. I went to a naked pool party, which I thought might be a little bit like sort of Vegas pool party

in Arundel. It was not like that. And the first activity I did in my naked odyssey was I went on a 12 mile naked ramble. And I didn't realise until I got there that it was going to be me and 20 men so yeah that was one of the most um interesting afternoons of my life um me and 20 naked men the most difficult part of it I have to say was when we sat down for lunch obviously at Great Bottom because where else would you sit for lunch on a naked ramble and they all sort of sat down under the oak tree with their legs apart and I sat very differently under the oak tree with my lunch. Yeah.

You can read about that online at thetimes.co.uk. Just type in Jane Mulcairn's naked ramble. There aren't that many pieces that come up. Well, kids, I mean, there's your Tuesday evening sorted. We'll be back tomorrow. I would just think the naked, I've got a lot of thoughts about naturism, some of which Jane and I have been airing

over the last couple of weeks. Horses for courses. And I do understand why it is incredibly liberating for some. But also wearing clothes and choosing clothes is just such an enormous joy to me. I don't want to dispense with that really. No, absolutely. And it's more difficult to express yourself without your red dress on. I will say the one thing that it did leave me with is I do quite like going to the nudist

beach quite a lot now, which I probably wouldn't have done before. But I really like swimming naked. And even though because I live in Brighton I wear some ugly neoprene boots to do it because it's really difficult to come out of the sea it's a bit shingly and it's difficult enough to walk gracefully with confidence naked out of the sea but even more difficult if you don't have an ugly neoprene boot on yeah I love a skinny dip yeah I totally get that. But that's the joy of something being around your nakedness as well, isn't it?

Well, look, more to follow. It's Jane and Fiat Times.radio. All this week, Jane Mulkerins is sitting in for The Garvey, but do keep your emails coming. We will announce the tote bag winners on Thursday, and we're also taking suggestions for

the next book to read and it's an important book because it will be a summer holiday read so we'll take all of those two it's lovely to have your company shall we try and see whether or not we are connected in our heads in our choice of dresses tomorrow yeah absolutely okay do i win a tote bag if we wear the same no the tote bags are incredibly precious items of merchandising. They can't just be given away willy-nilly to people who work here. Okay, fair enough. No, I've already given mine to my friend Anne. I make my own.

She was thrilled. Right, thank you. Good night. You did it. Elite listener status for you for getting through another half hour or so of our whimsical ramblings. Otherwise known as the hugely successful podcast Off Air with Jane Garvey and Fee Glover.

We missed the modesty class. Our Times Radio producer is Rosie Cutler, the podcast executive producer. It's a man. It's Henry Tribe. Yeah, he's an executive. Now, if you want even more, and let's face it, who wouldn't, then stick Times Radio on at three o'clock Monday until Thursday every week. And you can hear our take on the big news stories of the day, as well as a genuinely interesting mix of brilliant and entertaining guests on all sorts of subjects.

Thank you for bearing with us and we hope you can join us again on Off Air very soon.