Off Air... with Jane and Fi - Bird spotting vaping recalcitrant crows (with Jacinda Ardern)

Episode Date: June 17, 2025

The sheer volume of accents in this episode is extremely high - proceed with caution. Jane and Fi also chat UFO sightings, hedgehogs, and feeling the spook. Plus, former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern reflects on her time in office and discusses her new book 'A Different Kind of Power'. If you want to come and see us at Fringe by the Sea, you can buy tickets here: www.fringebythesea.com/fi-jane-and-judy-murray/And if you fancy sending us a postcard, the address is:Jane and FiTimes Radio, News UK1 London Bridge StreetLondonSE1 9GFIf you want to contact the show to ask a question and get involved in the conversation then please email us: [e-mail] next book club pick has been announced! We’ll be reading Leonard and Hungry Paul by Rónán Hession.Follow us on Instagram! @janeandfiPodcast Producer: Eve SalusburyExecutive Producer: Rosie Cutler Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This episode of Off Air is brought to you by Thomas Fudge's Biscuits. We've got a bit of a reputation, haven't we Jane? Our desk here at Times Towers is pretty famous for having the most delicious sweet treats in the office. Yep, guilty as charged. But we're not into any old treats, no sir. Only the most elevated biscuit makes the grade. Cos we're so classy.

May we introduce you to Thomas Fudges, born from the expert British craftsmanship of inventive Dorset bakers in 1916. Thomas Fudgers' Florentines are an indulgent blend of Moorish caramel, exquisite almonds and luscious fruits, draped in silky smooth Belgian chocolate. Oh, you've said a few key words there, Fee. Exquisite, Moorish. Exactly the way my colleagues would describe me, I'm sure. Did you say sophisticated? I didn't, but I can. Just like the biscuits, you're very sophisticated, darling.

And like you, Thomas Fudges believes that indulgence is an art form and it should be done properly or not at all, Jane. I concur. Thomas Fudges. Hats Off to Remarkable Biscuits. Welcome to Spookyville, the podcast that takes you out of this world. Do you know what I noticed this morning? Those antihistamines haven't worn off, have they? They haven't worn off at all. When I went home yesterday evening and actually, well, I think we must both have been invited to Eandale's book launch and you said no, it's an earlier occasion. I was going to go but I couldn't go because I just felt so tired.

She just couldn't go either. I couldn't go. So I just had to go home. I had to go to bed. As soon as I got in I just sleep it off for an hour or so, get up again and then try and go to sleep at a normal time. But the lesson is, don't take drugs in the dark. Just always know what you're taking kids. Kids please pay attention to Auntie Fee. They weren't even my anti-estamines. OK, I'm not going to ask too many questions about what's gone on here, but you're very, very wise. Do not ever take over-the-counter medication in the dark. No.

Just don't do it. You give me a little link there, because you were talking about Iain Dale's new book, which has just come out, it's about Margaret Thatcher. Yeah. And we're talking to a female Prime Minister on the podcast. Oh, well done, Jane. Thank you very much. Jacinda Ardern is our guest on this podcast. It's an interview that I've

already done with her this morning. It was lovely to spend a bit of time in her company. She's a very very personable creature and I think you forget how much she's moved a couple of barriers as well because she, as she says in the interview, she got pregnant at completely the wrong time for a career, Joan. Pretty careless. But she did then appear in a lot of places with her baby daughter. Do you remember the pictures of her at the United Nations General Assembly where she was trying to keep her baby, tiny baby at the time, kind of occupied and distracted by making all of those funny faces that you do make at babies. And they were caught on camera

and obviously broadcast around the world. But I can't think of another world leader who has been photographed with newborn babies and doing things with kids and saying I've got a kid and all of that. Well, it's important trying to think of some examples. Margaret Thatcher's children were quite a lot older by the time she became Prime Minister. But she did have children, we should say. President Putin, we don't hear a lot about his childcare arrangements. No, we certainly don't. I believe that they're in a different country, aren't they? Well, that's one way of dealing with childcare, isn't it? It is. Switzerland.

Yeah, exactly. Anyway, yes, you're right. Shall we do some traditional balance? We've had lots of emails saying how wonderful Jacinda Ardern is, by the way, including one from her sister-in-law. I'll give you that one just to make sure you've got that. But just to say, so no one can accuse us of just only ever giving one point of view that might be our point of view rather than acknowledging that there are others. Cam the Kiwi has emailed to say I will try to be brief and I apologize in advance if I ramble I'm so

fascinated to hear Fee's interview with Jacinda Ardern and because I sense that your view of her is very similar to what mine was when I lived outside New Zealand. I'm a Kiwi who lived overseas for over 20 years and from that distance I was always hugely impressed by her and her progressive kind outlook on life and governing. I was also impressed at how decisively she acted over Covid and the thousands of lives that action undoubtedly saved and her response to the Christchurch Mosque shooting. All of which is true and thank you for acknowledging that, Kam. Then in late 2021 I got a job offer to come back to New Zealand and I started to see the other side of the coin.

Her government had closed the border even to New Zealand citizens and the only way to get back was via a lottery system which, if successful, would get you a spot in managed isolation for two weeks. The lottery happened every month or so and I was never successful. My dream job offer was almost rescinded because I wasn't able to get back into my own country. Meanwhile visas were being granted to hundreds of overseas arts and entertainment workers under a so-called critical worker exemption. Then as I settled back into life here, I learned about the Covid vaccine mandates which had effectively created a two-tier society.

It did exclude people from all sorts of everyday activities and it's still a point which rankles many years later. So we've read it, Cam, and thank you for it. One of your listeners did describe our current Prime Minister here in New Zealand as Wreck-It Ralph, and I understand where she's coming from there. But what Ardern supporters fail to recognise is that much of his so-called wrecking is an undoing of the overreach and underspending under the Ardern government. So that's certainly a perspective and we thank you very much for it. Yeah and we do talk in the interview about the shutting down

of New Zealand for such a considerable period of time and the pain that that caused so you'll be able to hear Jacinda Ardern's response to that. Just to return though to the things that she has done, I think it's an interesting one isn't it? The view that you have of somebody else's leader because it entitles you to just take the bits that you want to take and leave the other bits behind because of course they haven't had an impact on your life. And her impact on our perception of female politicians I think will probably rankle a lot with people who then didn't like her policies as a politician. So Cam, you're absolutely entitled to write in

and thank you that you did. This one comes from, and I might get it wrong, would you say Penny or Penne or Pien? The well-known pasta shape is Penne. But that's got two N's in it and this is P-E-N-E. But anyway, Pien, Pen, Penne. I'm going to go with Penny. I'm just going to be bold Eve.

Hello Penny. Penny is Jacinda's sister-in-law. Can I just say that takes a... I mean we've got Chris... We did have Chris Martin from Coldplay's sister, didn't we? But Chris Martin hasn't ever been Prime Minister so I think this might take us to the, this might go to the top of the charts. He's the world leader in many people's eyes.

Oh yeah well. I wonder whether Chris Martin's sister is still listening. We don't think she is. It would be very nice to hear from you if you are. She revealed, and there will be an obvious reason why I remember this, that their mother was a late inin-life uptaker of the oboe. Do you remember that, Deetha? Oboe players of the world unite in the very small corner over there. Oh, just the two of you. Right, Penny says, it's a beautiful email and thank you very much indeed for getting in touch and she wants to tell us this anecdote. In early 2019 I was called by Jacinda asking if I could babysit that night

as Clark, that's Jacinda's husband, had been filming all day on a boat that had broken down and he was still three to four hours away as they were being towed in. No problem, I said, so I headed round. There she was, dressed up in the most beautiful dress, hair and makeup done, looking amazing, with Niamh crawling around to her feet. Okay, she said, I'll just give Niamh her final bottle and then put her to bed. Where are you off to? I asked.

Kiwi of the year, she replied. A fancy awards ceremony we have here for Kiwis doing great things. Do you think I look okay? She asked. Yes, you look great. Why? Well, it's just that I've been wearing this all day and a colleague, male, asked me if I was going home to get changed.

And I told him no, I probably wouldn't have time and he said are you sure? Don't you think you should? And I said to her, did you ask him if he was getting changed out of his suit? No, she replied. He was going for drinks with friends and then straight to the venue. Thanks so much for all that you do. No thank you Penny and take care of yourself. So Men can go they never have a day to night article aimed at them. Do they? They really don't. There's a certain newspaper which consistently will give you a day into evening option on a dress that they think is appropriate for both the office and the cocktail party.

And it's never... Well, actually today I'm wearing a dress, I could go out like this, you could go out like that. Well, yes, I suppose we both could. We've both reached for our... It's suddenly hot and we need to wear a frock garment, haven't we? Very much so. But do you know what? That is genuinely, on my part, based on the unaerated nature of two stops on the Jubilee line.

Oh my god. That air has been down there since about 1954. Yeah, it's seen some things. Changes of monarch, changes of government, decimalisation. It's been in and out of a lot of people, Jane, that's all I'll say. There are a disturbing number of tailored shorts on the Tube this morning as well. I suppose men have always got that option in their locker, but not all of them should reach for it, that's all I'll say. But the Bermuda short is very much in for the lady, isn't it, this summer?

You won't be seeing me in them, don't worry. I did pull out my summer shorts over the weekend. Not the floral elastication ones? No, they have been given a Christian burial because that was genuinely causing alarm. To be honest, I hope they don't rise again, love. I think they're dead and buried and gone from our lives forever, sadly, because they did provide occasional moments of, I'm going to say domestic mirth, because the kids really were just, oh no, every single time I get to stairs in them. So I've gone for a unique clothe checked short.

Okay. But also you're in trouble for not recognizing the contribution to fashion that Lidl has made. No, I do regret. I have been there recently, but every branch of Lidl is very distinctive, isn't it? So not all the branches have the options. And my local one is a relatively small, I must stop advertising, a relatively small

branch. But Jo says, how many emails have you had? Telling you that of course they do sell clothes in the middle of Lidl, mostly sportswear and school uniform, but you could probably get a dress or two throughout the year if your time is right. Jo also goes on to say, well she wants to just thank John for his fabulous artwork. She says all our talk of it led her to the Insta last week in search of it and she says I was not disappointed. Big thanks to John and to Claire, his wife, they both sound amazing. I think Jacinda Ardern radiates warmth in every way and I can't wait to listen to the interview with her. Her announcement about the Easter Bunny during Covid times was one of the defining points in politics as far as I'm concerned.

I'm very much one of those people who finds it all a bit much and I would rather bury my head in the sand on a permanent basis. If every world leader was as human as Jacinda I might be brave enough to take it out a bit more, says Jo. Okay, well we really hope you enjoy the interview which is coming up. Shall we mention the Mother of the Bride emails? I've got exactly this one lurking. This is lovely by the way. G'day to you both. Now do you... G'day! Thank you. Love the conversation about Mother of the Bride outfits. My daughter got married in Australia in April and before I went out there I spent a ridiculous amount of time trawling through shops and websites looking for an outfit that I could

actually imagine myself wearing. I'm a 76 year old and my style, or lack of it, was honed in late 1960s London. To say I was a bit lost was an understatement. All I knew was there was no way I was going to wear a hat. Enter my daughter's stage left. Leave it to me mum, she said. Normally those words would see me running for cover, but by this time I was desperate and ready to clutch at my proffered straw. Shortly after my arrival in Australia she handed me a package. Try this on, she said. Inside was a flouncy strapless dress that you'd be more likely to see on a 25-year-old

on a red carpet than on a bride's mother. I was extremely doubtful but obligingly poured and zipped myself into it. To my astonishment, I felt a million dollars. All that remained was to get rid of my suntan straplines and remember not to move my arms at all because of the bingo wings. Oh, and get flat shoes so I could chase about after the small granddaughters. No heels for me, thank you. I'm so, so delighted that I didn't conform to everyone's expectations and trusted my daughter to make a statement on my behalf which I would never have dared to do in my sensible, cautious old person's world.

I would encourage everyone to just get out there and buy something that makes you feel marvellous. Well, you look absolutely gorgeous, Lizzie. That is a dress and a half. I'm so with your daughter on just saying, no, wear that. You'll look stunning. We've all got the bingo wings. I hope that you didn't try genuinely to do the whole day without moving your arms at all. I mean men have got the bingo wings too, usually by middle age. Yeah, what's the male equivalent? We should come up with an appropriate term for men who've

got the arm flab, because that's what we're talking about. It is, isn't it? Well they've literally got golf swingers, haven't they? We are, well done. One of our colleagues is playing 36 holes today isn't he? He certainly is. I did say yesterday, I think that's very unwise in this heat. It's quite a hot one. Maybe they'll have to seek refuge at the 19th hole. Your knowledge of golf is actually surprisingly large.

Now we've had this really lovely email from Mike and I think it's it's just a perspective we don't hear very often so thanks so much Mike for taking the time because he's a man and he'll be busy Fee but he's still found time to email this. I'll tell you what, he's got lovely paragraphs hasn't he? The use of the paragraph is exquisite all together this. So we had an email asking about the things, the conversations that need to be had before you make the decision with a partner

in a heterosexual relationship to have a baby. Actually, it would apply in any relationship. So Mike has written to give his thoughts as a relatively new dad. Before we had children, he says, my wife and I always aim for equality in our relationship. I think for the most part, we achieved it, we talked things through and tried to make everything fair. But pregnancy and becoming parents has changed that, not just in terms

of what needs doing, but in terms of who we are as people. We aim for equality, but it's just no longer as simple or as tangible as dividing tasks or time. My wife went through a pregnancy and a birth, it was an experience I did my best to support her through, but I didn't truly share it. And since our son was born, he's now one. It's clear that becoming a parent has led to a more profound shift in her than it has in me. I don't know whether it's emotions, identity or hormones,

I can't really put my finger on it. Our marriage is still about supporting each other and being a team, but the idea that we can ever achieve equality again in a sense of balancing the scales just feels silly. My approach is to do as much as I can whenever I can, and at the same time I try to quieten the voice in my head that says helpful things like but I changed the nappy last time or I got up yesterday morning So it's your turn because the truth is even when I do everything I possibly can it Still doesn't feel like I've caught up with what my wife has given or continues to give by the way

I hope when I say try to quieten the voice. It's clear that I fail a lot of the time I mean Mike is one of these modern men with I hope when I say try to quieten the voice, it's clear that I fail a lot of the time. I mean, Mike is one of these modern men who's properly in touch with his... I'm very honest. I think this is a very honest email, don't you? I think it is. And, you know what, I would just slightly... I would be wary of dismissing him as the modern man as well, because I think actually there have always been men who've been unbelievably kind and helpful and thoughtful but they haven't been the ones who've been celebrated enough. So we've just got to go, yep, you're there, let's hear more from you.

Do you think, and I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder whether men didn't used to be at the birth, did they? Now it is almost unheard of in this part of the world for a man not to be present at the birth of his child. And it must weigh pretty heavy, I've never seen a birth, it must weigh pretty heavily on them. I really I'm interested in him saying, you know, I've done my best, but I can never do what she has done. And also, you know, your wife's body has held the baby and looked after nurtured it for nine months of course you can't do that but you shouldn't be hard on yourself because of that because that's really not your fault

it really isn't it would be regarded now as very peculiar if a man I'm going to say a man decided he couldn't be there yeah I know I think it is, but there's lots of evidence to suggest that it's just not always right. I mean, I think men do get derided for not being there. As a tiny percentage that decide not to be there. You know, it means that they don't care. It might be that the woman has said, I don't want you there. That's also a possibility, I guess. Mike, we're so delighted to hear from you, really, really delighted.

And you just sound like a very lovely, thoughtful man. And I mean, I don't know why I'm sounding so surprised at that, because you're definitely out there, all of you. You're definitely out there. But how nice that you're listening. Keeping busy on holes. I love a bullet point email. And this one comes in from Julie, catching up on 10 days of your ramblings

and enjoying every moment. Ramblings? Yeah. Honestly. We can't use that title because that belongs to Claire Balding. Like so much of Great Britain. Oh stop it I'm not joining in. I'm not joining in with that. I'm just not. Currently sat on a lounger in the sun. She's in Traters in the autumn and I cannot wait. So Traters in the autumn has just got such a lineup of stars in it. I would imagine that the psychological support team might have been busy there, Jane. Currently sat on a lounger in the sun and breaking my late night listening routine. So many good things to respond to but will bullet as

my frappuccino is melting. Right, here we go. In at number one, French tennis scores. I think it's egalité as 40-40 as a score is equal instead of juice. That's what they're saying. In at number two, swing ball. Swing ball was the source of many arguments in my family, being one of three children with one of us complaining as we had to sit out usually ending with me whacking the bat and ball at my brother because he wouldn't share. I think it's still great despite the design for a constant tangled rope. That's so true, isn't it? You cannot play around a swing ball without it all getting mangled up. They never worked it out. That was the downside.

Yeah. Well, I mean, there were others. Yes. It's quite boring after a while. There really were others. In at number three, Fox's. Why hasn't someone designed an app where you can record any sightings? Once we knew where and numbers, we could find a way to pick them up and take them to the new Fox Hotel at King's Cross. Ah.

Which is the Google headquarters. Because where they could find their friends. Got another Fox for you. They'd love it, wouldn't they? Postcards. One is on its way. In at number five, your jingle. Long-term listener, first-time emailer. I think it's a bit of a mouthful.

It is actually, Julie. Julie says, I want to sing something, but it doesn't quite work. Could you not just have a little badge instead? Just that jog my memory, though, on parish notices. So on the Spotify playlist that we'd like to create, there were several flaws in the plan to just open it to the public per se. I've slipped into Latin there, Jo. So we have come up with the notion that instead, if you'd like to join our playlist, then just pop on your playlist choice as a PS onto any email

you send to us and we'll add it to our playlist and we'll build it up that way. Okay well that and that's doable. Yes so for instance Julie could have said that she really wanted to include something from the classic Fleetwood Mac Rumours album and then we'd pop it on and and then she would join our playlist and we can build it up. So please do that. All of your favourite tunes, you can tell us a little bit about why and we'll make a lovely summer soundtrack. And Glyn emailed yesterday asking about those old emergency call-outs you used to hear on the radio, usually just before a news bulletin. And some interesting responses here,

and actually both of these emails are from Northern Ireland and that does make sense. So let's bring in Brenda who's in Crumlin in County Antrim. I remember as a child back in the 70s we were on holiday in County Kerry and RTE radio was on constantly as my parents tried to keep abreast of the awful events happening at home as the troubles raged. I vividly remember the SOS call for a good friend of the family thought to be holidaying in the Cork area to urgently contact home. My parents immediately knew that the friend's mother must have died as she was elderly and ill. With no mobiles or even necessarily a phone at home this was actually a really important service especially at holiday times. There was a

set time for these announcements daily. Indeed, when travelling down south these days, we often hear funeral times announcements on local radio in the south of Ireland. Wow. Yeah. That's, well, funerals are, let's just be honest, funerals are big in Ireland. Big business. Big business and big. You don't want to miss a single little one of them. You wouldn't if there's a buffet. There's going to be

a hot buffet or just a cold, the cold little fingers. Oh, it won't be just cold fingers. That's just awful. Another correspondent says I'm a long term listener, including when you were elsewhere and you've kept me sane. I mean, the number of people who say that, because neither of us have a very particularly firm grip on sanity, but we're glad we're helping. I live in Northern Ireland and radio and television was often used by the police to alert people to emergencies, i.e. key holders who own properties to contact them because their business was at risk due to bomb damage

during the so-called Troubles. We got so used to this and became a bit immune to it as it became an almost nightly occurrence in the media. But one summer we went on a family holiday to the south of Ireland and Dad heard a radio announcement that his school was on fire and he needed to return immediately.

And the police just gave out his car number plate. That's one way of making sure that they got through to you. He decided he was not interrupting our holiday and got some good Irish muck, covered the number plate and carried on regardless. He did eventually return to sort things out at the school and it opened as normal in the autumn term. We still remember this with great fondness and some admiration. He was always viewed as such an upstanding member of the community, but there was a little bit of a rebel there at times. Happy days in spite of all those dark days up here in

the north. Best wishes to you both says our anonymous emailer here and please come over sometime. We need to go to Northern Ireland. We definitely, definitely should do. Yes, we definitely, definitely do. When was the last time you went to Ireland? Gosh, I haven't been to Ireland for... Oh, I went to Dublin. Not that long ago actually, to do a programme for another broadcast. Okay. Good to know. Yes. In fact, that was Dublin. So I haven't been to the North for quite a while. But my sister went very recently and she enjoyed herself. Yeah. I think Belfort's got a lot to shout about now. To tar for now says Nicola who sent a very lovely email about lots of subjects

and I'm just going to go straight to your final paragraph about foxes if that's okay. We aren't blinded by foxes probably as they've all moved to London and don't enjoy village life anymore for some reason. But last Friday we had a juvenile crow tapping on either the patio window of the den in the kitchen for most of the day. Now that just made me laugh, a juvenile crow. So what was that? A crow that was vaping? Maybe listening to some inappropriate rap? It was vaping and it looked recalcitrant. That'll do. Nicola says, I think it must have thought there was another crow to battle with. It

seems that many of the wildlife in and around villages are off to try their luck in town, as for years we had hedgehogs in the garden. One winter there was one hibernating. We covered it in extra straw and could enjoy very carefully lifting the straw for a peek at it breathing deeply, so much so that we could see its chest moving in and out. I bought a hedgehog house that year thinking word would get around that it was a safe place to live but I haven't seen a single one since. That was about seven years ago. Obviously it wasn't posh enough for them to visit again. Well Nicola, what a lovely thing to do and do you know what I would love to hear from

people who have spotted hedgehogs. I love that detail of the chest moving up and down. Yes, and that really, really kind of severe hibernation when they're just like, right, this is it, I just do breathing now, I'm not doing anything else. But I think I haven't seen a, I haven't, I haven't seen an hedgehog. I haven't seen a hedgehog since the last time we went to Centre Parks. That was a long time ago. But we were in Centre Parks in Thetford Forest and we saw a hedgehog and a deer and rabbits and actually it was such a lovely experience Jane because mine are city kids, you know, they're born and bred Landon. One of them was born within the sound of bow bells. She's

proper cockney. The accents on this edition have been horrific. It'll have to carry some sort of warning. And I would never call myself prop cockney because we are part of the gentrification problem in East London. Problem? Well no, we are. Yes, okay. We are massively so. Hey honey, you know yourself. We've broke with us kimchi and house prices and about a thousand really funny Instagram accounts. But it did make me realize Jane that actually hedgehogs and deer and bunny rabbits were just such an enormous part of my childhood you don't you know you wouldn't you

wouldn't stop when we were driving to school or whatever you wouldn't stop and go you know there's a deer or there's a rabbit because they were just blooming everywhere and they were hedgehogs all over the place but I've not seen a hedgehog for years. Where is Stepford Forest? In Norfolk. Yes, is that the place with the UFO sightings? Yes, it's very, there have been some sightings, but I think there's a bigger place though, isn't there, in Suffolk? Yeah, what is it?

Which is just in between Woodbridge and Orford, where there have been some... Orfordness. UFO sightings and mystery. I will look that up whilst you're reading another email. But I would love to hear about hedgehogs and wildlife in people's gardens if that's okay and especially if you built a little hedgehog house and somebody did come to visit. Like a hedgehog? Yes, hopefully, not a bloody fox. Rather than your

mother-in-law getting on your wick. Right, let's just briefly mention, what was I going to briefly mention? Oh yes, there's been a disgusting artwork sent our way by Louise. She previously sent us a tactile postcard from Paris, that was the one with the ridged baguette, which we hugely appreciated. Thank you Louise. I wanted to send you this image of something my son made in year four. The first time I saw it, it was on one of those classroom walkarounds with the children and other parents. I had to try extremely hard not to laugh as he was very proud of his monument. His teacher, I'm sad to say, was sniggering in the background. Well it's um,

it's simply, um, your son has crafted something emerging from what looks like cress and unfortunately the object emerging does look like a penis. I mean there's simply no getting away from it Louise. Why it's emerging from a bed of cress I couldn't tell you but young fertile imagination there. Yes I just did that to lighten the mood because Fee's now going to tell me something very serious about UFOs. The Rendlesham Forest incident was a series of reported sightings of unexplained lights near the forest which is in Suffolk.

Oh, so it's not Norfolk? No. We've been to Rendlesham Forest and we did, we stood in the exact place where the UFO sighting was said to have happened so we could feel the spook. Yeah. And we did feel the spook. Did you? It's very spooky. Yes.

Was it like probably? Probably. Yes, a little bit like probably. But this, particularly in Britain when... If so, I'm just very sensitive to the context in another world. Oh, I know you are hyper sensitive. Yes. The weather in Britain does lend itself, I'm sorry to say, to increase consumption of alcohol

and with that, seemingly inevitably, we have increased sightings of strange objects in the sky and large animals roaming in the gloaming. So we're all braced for the wild cats of wherever they might be this year. Let's just briefly acknowledge we have had emails from the States, people, our old friend Cher has taken part in the demo, what is it called, No Kings or We Don't Want Kings or there aren't. No Kings. No Kings, she took part in that and we've also had this very, very thoughtful email from Mary who is in Minnesota. I'm writing to you to share the legacy of Melissa Hortman, the Minnesota House speaker who was

assassinated over the weekend. I mean there are some truly miserable things going on and she wants us to know too that she was in the capital. There were cautionary warnings, she says, on Saturday morning not to march at the Minnesota version of No Kings Day, but people did show up. Thousands came to the capital. I was in Wilmar, Minnesota, a town about 21,000 people. There were around 300 of us. We rallied, we sang and then we marched. Melissa had been our inspiration and we did not want to be overcome by fear. Surprisingly, we were more warmly received by passing cars and trucks than we had experienced in previous months. We believe, says Mary, that the climate here is changing. My

inspiration for marching is to stand up to Trump to support our military veterans and immigration. I'm 67, I'm still working as a psychotherapist for a rural health system, I'm the granddaughter of ethnic Poles who fled Galicia in the late 1880s and a great great granddaughter of ethnic Poles who fled Galicia in the late 1880s and a great great granddaughter of ethnic Poles who fled Prussia in 1871. And that, thank you for that Mary, because that is the story of America isn't it? People who for various reasons had to flee persecution to go to the sanctuary of the United States. And so shout out to all our North American listeners and thank you for letting us know what you've been up to.

Yeah, and to be welcomed into the warm embrace of the American dream and to do remarkable things with it. But we know that immigration is a very complex subject. So, you know, there are rightfully concerns. Long time listener, first time emailer, just hum something for Jenny. Okay. Right, well, it wasn't as emphatic as I thought it was going to be.

That's a slightly low energy still. Okay. I had to email in in response to the email sent in by the NHS nurse working in critical care. They talk about their experiences of people having moved in retirement to their dream location often meaning their support network has shrunk. I too am an NHS nurse although I work in a district nursing team and we also experience a similar aspect of people who've relocated in retirement. They downsized to some of our more remote rural areas and Jenny is working in Dorset. While district nursing teams will visit people wherever they live, other services often needed by old people are sometimes tricky to access

in more isolated areas. So people become reliant on their neighbours or family to be able to collect urgent prescriptions or take them to hospital. Meal delivery services may not be as regular to more remote areas and if there's very little support network this often becomes a problem. People become unable to get the antibiotics they need to start taking or they miss that much needed appointment. Also although community health services will do their utmost to get to visits, poor weather conditions can at times make the journey there very difficult. District nurses use their own vehicles to get to visits and in very heavy rain causing flooding or snow, we're often ending up leaving our cars and walking

parts of the journey because we don't have access to four by four vehicles. Jenny says I'm going to stop here before I get on my district nursing slash community nursing soapbox, one of the most unseen and undervalued health services in my opinion, but maybe something to consider when contemplating moving in retirement. Well, you're very welcome to amplify your message from the district nursing community nursing soapbox, Jenny, because I think you're right. It is quite undervalued, but it's an absolute lifeline, isn't it? And all of those points that you make are so true and really good. So more on that is always very welcome.

Yes, and it's just a... I must have never thought about that aspect of moving away from your, well it might not be your roots, but where you spent much of your adult life. That idyllic life by the sea or in the middle of the countryside will work for a while, but none of us are immortal. Well, I say that. Oh, that funny Brian Johnson bloke, the one who's measuring his penis in the middle of the night. So he's had a whole conference, hasn't he, recently?

I thought you were going to tell me he died. I tell you what, that will be breaking news. I don't wish that on the man at all, but he will be particularly disappointed. Yes, and he'll never know how much the rest of us are tittering. If we're spared, of course, she said very quickly. When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most? When your famous grainy mustard potato salad

isn't so famous without the grainy mustard. When the barbecue's lit, but there's nothing to grill. When the in-laws decide that actually they will stay for dinner. Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer. So download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes. Plus, enjoy zero dollar delivery fees on your first three orders. Service fees, exclusions and terms apply.

Instacart. Groceries that over-deliver. I think it's high time we brought in former Prime Minister of New Zealand. Who is it? It's Jacinda Ardern. In her new book, A Different Kind of Power, Jacinda Ardern tells us about how her early family life in a close-knit community, attending the Church of the Latter-day Saints, shaped her ambitions to channel responsibility and service into empathetic politics in her native country New Zealand.

Despite not being the one who wanted to be at the front of the stage, that is where she ended up leading the country as its Prime Minister when she was only 37. During her time in office she had a lot to deal with, the horrific shootings in Christchurch where a gunman attacked a mosque full of worshippers, killing 51 and injuring more than 80 others. The Covid crisis really tested her. She shut down the borders in New Zealand for two years. It wasn't a popular policy. At one point, three thousand anti-vax protesters pitched tents in the grounds of the Parliament House in Wellington. She has been one of very few women at the top of politics to have a baby whilst in high

office. And as she explains in our chat, the timing of her pregnancy with her daughter, Niamh, was career challenging. She quit politics in 2023, saying she didn't have enough fuel in the tank to carry on. And we join the chat as Jacinda talks about how as a young woman, she came to leave the Mormon faith behind, challenged by her real-world experiences. Leaving wasn't just about abandoning a theological framework, even though that was hard, because if your whole life you have a sense of where the moral code sits for you based on your religion, and when you suddenly remove that you're questioning how do I know if I'm a good person.

But it's also the loss of community. My faith was not just a attend on Sunday faith, it was all consuming and my family was still members so it really felt like I was losing community and a part of my identity. Do you think that it enabled you though to form a stronger identity in your young adult life because you had had to question things, you had had to reject things? I mean homosexuality is one of those things isn't it? And that seemed to be quite a turning point for you, the fact that in terms of policy and politics you wanted to embrace civil partnerships. I did.

Your church wouldn't have. No, that's right. I mean, the cognitive dissonance of it all was just right there smacking me in the face. I was working on the civil unions campaign. I was flatting with three openly gay men and I was attending the Mormon church. And at some point, something had to give give and I chose that really strong set of values I felt intuitively around

inclusion and you know the freedom for people to love who they love and that that was the path I took and you're right it probably did mean that I felt very very strongly connected to those set of values and that's what carried me through politics. What's fascinated me in reading the book is your imposter syndrome. Oh yeah. Yes. My third character. That one.

Because you identify it very clearly at the beginning, and actually I think you reference it all of the way through, even when you're right at the very top table, even when you're at UN summits, even when you're in the room with Putin and Trump, I feel it really is there with you. Yeah. So can you explain to us how somebody who has that self-doubt about themselves also wants to push themselves forward to be in those quite difficult places?

It's a great question because I think we have this assumption that if you experience that, then that is, you know, that, and it exists with you at all times, as you rightly identify mine did, that that will preclude you. But what I found, at least in my experience, is the one sentiment that is more powerful than imposter syndrome is a sense of responsibility.

And that was what took me into the job. I found myself just seven weeks out from an election. My boss, the leader of the Labour Party, was experiencing bad polling, thought that he wouldn't win. So he came to work, he quit and he nominated me. And immediately, of course, that self doubt didn't go away at all. But the sense of responsibility to take on a job

that I'd been asked to do, just made that suddenly feel trivial, self-indulgent. There was no time for it. Instead, I just had to crack on and do a job. So you find yourself in these extraordinary rooms. And at one point you are in a room with Justin Trudeau, with Putin, who you describe as expressionless and static man, with Trump, Shinzo Abe, who remembers this extraordinary detail about a cat of yours.

Yeah, my cat, Petals. Yep, as recent, what happened to Petals? Petals got hit by a car And right as I become Prime Minister, it's the day that the Speaker is sworn in, and which was a bit of a procedural debacle. It wasn't a good day. And I got out of the debating chamber to like five missed calls from Clark

to tell me that our cat had been run over. And I was just, I was distraught. He was so distraught, but there was, you know, I had to go straight to the Governor-General's house for the swearing in of the Speaker. I remember walking through the door and because I just hadn't had a chance to process it or feel sad, she was standing there and just, I blurted out, my cat died. And actually of all the people, I mean the Queen's representative,

you'd think that would be the worst possible person to blurt that out to, but she was a massive animal lover. She had dogs that she doted on and she was so kind. She was so kind. But of course I never knew or expected that a world leader, some several, you know, a month later later after a very serious bilateral would lean in and say I'm sorry about your cat. It's a remarkable detail yeah but let's be really serious about this if you were in a room with all of those people now Shinzaibe is no longer alive but if you're with those great big leaders what would the conversation be if you had the floor with them?

Because the strong men of the world are in charge at the moment, aren't they? Well, certainly that that form of leadership is being loudly amplified, but it is not the only form of leadership. You know, and I think one thing that I would be particularly aware of is that I would not be, if I was still at the table, I would not be the only leader pushing back against the notion of isolationism

as a response to some of the challenges we face, nor the only one who would value kindness. Mark Carney, the Prime Minister of Canada, and the re-elected Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese, both leaders in their victory speeches reference the value, strength and importance of kindness and leadership. So we don't see as much of a light shone on that alternative, but it is there. I think though, if I did have the mic, and I were around the table,

I think some of the concerns I would be raising, and there would be a relatively long list. But one would be that, again, this approach of isolating ourselves from the world's problems will not succeed. When we face climate change, you can't geographically isolate yourself from the effects of climate change nor can you protect yourselves

from the global impacts of pandemics. Even if wars have been conducted outside of continents beyond your own they are destabilizing our population's sense of humanity. We have a responsibility to work collectively to resolve those challenges. Do you regret at all the decisions that you took around the pandemic in New Zealand? I mean, it's interesting you used the word isolationist. I mean, some criticism was that you shut down your country for a very long period of time and perhaps too long to the detriment of some parts of society.

When I talk about the pandemic management, the idea of collectively working together to ensure access to vaccine, you know, to, you know, PPE, vaccine consumables, making sure that we're globally working on pandemic preparedness. And of course, some of the public health tools we used in that environment whilst working collectively was to say, look, we need some border management to slow down this illness so that we save lives. So I don't see those two things in contradiction. But coming to the core of your question over how I feel in the aftermath of COVID,

we had two goals. We wanted to save people's lives. We also wanted to keep people together. It turned out we did one, but not the other. And I have lots of thoughts about, yes, what could we have done differently? How could it have been different? But it's very hard to regret knowing that you saved 20,000 people's lives. You faced some really tough challenges when you were in office.

Yeah. The Christchurch shootings being one of the worst things that could possibly have happened within your country. So many people died. Does anything prepare you for that kind of trauma and tragedy? Had you ever even run through with somebody what you would say or do if? No, I mean, it was unimaginable. It was unimaginable. You know, having said that, it is the case that most countries have some kind of risk register, you know, there'll be some contingency.

It's one thing to have, you know, some sense that these things are possibilities in the world. It's another to have a white supremacist from Australia come and try and settle in your country and target your Muslim community and then take the lives of 51 people. It was unimaginable. And I think it will forever remain one of those memories that New Zealanders will have of that time. I remember in the aftermath, people often asking me, have you processed March 15? and I know what they meant but in a way it kind of implied that it's something that perhaps you move on from and over time I've just come to accept that I don't think I ever will.

On that day and in the days afterwards it was so obvious that you were personally affected by the tragedy as it had unfolded and that you wanted to offer something very human when you visited people who were affected too. I remember seeing you, I remember seeing you with tears in your eyes, I remember seeing you hugging a lot of people. And actually the warmth that you showed I think really did radiate. But what does that do to you as a person?

Where do you manage to find that amount of empathy to give towards people? I think actually one of the challenges that I found during that period was making sure that I kept reminding myself of the role that I had because I think what's incredibly important in crisis is proximity. In this day and age, it's, you know, I think probably natural that people around you try and keep leaders, public-facing leaders away from unpredictable situations and grief is so unpredictable. But we just

can't do our jobs well unless we have proximity to crisis but when you have that you will experience and take on and feel all the grief around you. But does it annoy you Jacinda that actually some people who are your critics might try to use that very thing that you were brilliant at against you and say, well, there was too much empathy going on. This is a woman who, as you said, you know, didn't have enough fuel in the tank to carry on. This is someone who is carried by kindness, isn't as punchy as she needs to be in politics. Yeah. And I certainly heard that. I reflect a little bit on that in the book. And I guess

to those, you know, critics, critics for me I feel like there's almost nothing I can say or even should need to say. I was there for almost six years. I was there through a domestic terror attack, a volcanic eruption, a pandemic and the economic consequences of it. I don't believe I need to prove any further that you can have empathy and that you can lead and that you can actually be resilient as well. And one of the, I think, things that are misunderstood about the idea of empathetic leadership is that it can make you flaky or indecisive. Quite the contrary, when you are people-centred in your motivation for being in politics,

that's what means that you get up on a podium and say our laws on guns are going to change and then they change within 26 days because you become so clear-eyed about what needs to be done and the responsibility you have. One of the things obviously going back to the world leaders that you have in common with them is that you spent time and power. One of the things they don't have in common with you is that they had a baby whilst in power. Because actually they are all men in that particular conversation. So just tell us about the timing of the arrival. Oh bad, bad, bad, bad timing. How bad?

Oh the worst you could imagine. And I always wanted, I always felt like I owed New Zealanders an explanation that I couldn't give without it just being far too much information. So I never shared how I could have landed on such bad timing. So for context, you know, I'd been through IVF unsuccessfully, and then suddenly found myself running to be Prime Minister. And so I thought, well, obviously just that journey needs to be put to one side and I'll just have to figure out later

whether or not I'm ever going to become a mother. I just thought, I just didn't think about it. And then I'm running in a campaign and election night comes and it's not clear whether we've won or not, so we enter into negotiations. And we're about three days out from him making his decision when I start to feel a bit funny. And that was the moment where a friend thought

I should take a pregnancy test. I thought it was ridiculous. You know, I'd not been able to conceive why would I now in the most stressful time in my life? But there it was, I was pregnant. So the worst possible timing. So when you had your daughter, you then had to do that public appearance, didn't you? Presenting your new expanded family to the world. And I think you write very honestly about actually what that was like for you. And you do make a comparison to the Princess of Wales, Kate Middleton,

doing it incredibly well. And I mean, she does. She does do that incredibly well. But actually, it was an unrealistic thing for you to be able to feel like she was looking. We don't know how she was actually feeling. So talk us through that. Yeah, and I'm very aware now of the fact that who knows? Who knows what might've been going on for her? All I know is that I took away this picture

of someone who was completely together. She at least had very good posture, and even I was struggling with that in particular. So the whole time I just, I think I had a false sense of what might be possible before I had, and even then after I just thought, how am I going to do this? But you know, I think you take each moment as it comes. I hobbled on down to my press conference and managed to get through it. I think two questions in, we were back to questions about my responsibility as being Prime Minister and reality came back.

You took your daughter with you on quite a few trips. I mean, one very notable one to the United Nations General Assembly. And she is the first child to have appeared on the floor of the UN General Assembly, isn't she? It's a strange accolade. You know, it is a very strange accolade. And actually I try and share a little, it was a bit unplanned.

When I was at the General Assembly, it was actually a speaking event for Nelson Mandela. And I went off to go and speak. And then Niamh woke up and Clark was killing time, knew that she might need me at some point. So he just wandered on over. And when I stepped off the floor, there they were. And you can tell it's a bit candid because the photos are horrible.

But there it was, I think I underestimated that moment. I think I did, I was so busy just getting on with the logistics of a four-month-old baby on the road. Why is it important that that did happen though? Because I mean presumably there haven't been very many other babies on the floor of the United Nations General Assembly. I feel those moments, even planned or unplanned, I think they're important to try and bring some normality. To mean that actually the next time it's not a big moment. There wasn't, for instance, a properly furnished space for changing a child's nappy and Clark experienced that first and a few times

finding very awkward meeting rooms with delegations bursting in and he was trying to to change Niamh but you know it's a small thing but in the aftermath of that visit New Zealand is now the sponsor of the breastfeeding room at the UN General Assembly. Brilliant. Can we lean into your political now because there is a vote in our Parliament today about the decriminalisation of abortion. It's attached to another bill, but that's what it will be. And that's something that New Zealand has already done, isn't it? We have. We have. And, you know, every country's politics will be different.

Their systems different, their history of these laws different, but certainly in our experience, you know, we worked hard to find a way to bring as many parliamentarians from across different parties together on an issue that in our case should not have been in the Crimes Act. I think there's some similarities there in New Zealand. We too had to have two medical professionals to certify that there would be an impact on your mental health and wellbeing if you were not able to access an abortion. It should have been a health issue. And so that's what we focused on.

Have there been any incidences since then, I think that was 2020, wasn't it your vote, when women's lives have actually been endangered by the fact that they can have very late term abortions, that there isn't any, I mean, I don't want to call it criminality, there isn't any barrier remaining. Not that I'm aware of, but I'd be loath to give a complete view on that, given that I'm living overseas now and may not be across every instance. We've got so many emails from our Offer listeners in New Zealand who just want to wish you the best

and interestingly, and this hasn't happened before on the podcast, we've got so many instances where people have met you, they have hugged you, they have been embraced by you, And let me just tell you one of these. This comes from Lisa who says, a preview of how very lovely and kind Jacinda Ardern is. My sister-in-law forgot my son's birthday. She worked in parliament at the time. Jacinda saved her butt and sent this sweet video during COVID lockdown.

My neuro-spicy eight-year-old beamed for weeks. And she sent us a little copy of the video. Oh, please. This from Chris, Christine in Cromwell, who says, there's no doubt in my mind that Jacinda was worn down by relentless misogyny, as other correspondents have testified. I do think Australia might be worse overall, but some Kiwis seem to feel threatened by females in power,

particularly when such women represent the left. Do you think you were? I agree with the analysis that I think politics in Australia is, can be a bit rough. In New Zealand, my overall experience, I hear the commentary, my overall experience was not defined by misogyny. It wasn't my day-to-day experience. And I certainly believe that I had a, you know, many ways a much easier pathway than say Jenny Shipley

or Helen Clark before me. My hope is that for everyone after the pathway becomes clearer and easier too. Politicians should be held accountable. We should be critiqued for the job we do, but that should not be based on our gender. And whilst I believe it's improved, there's been other elements that have come into play that I don't think is specific to me,

but the time and place we are in politics, where we do see a bit more hostility towards people in public life. And I would like to see that come, the temperature come down in politics. And this one comes from Morvan who says, this brings me to my point and everything that preceded it is just a congratulations to you for being you. This brings me to my point in quest for Jacinda's help. I believe we need some kind of mass global movement, women against war, to take action and given Jacinda's track record in leadership and her empathetic and kind approach to the world she could be the person to lead the charge on this. What are you up to now and do you have time to stop wars in the world? Could you take that on please?

Well, I guess the two things that perhaps may contribute in some small way. I am still a patron of the Christchurch Call to Action. It's a foundation that initially started after the live streaming of the attack in Christchurch and our focus is addressing radicalisation online and those things that lead to violent extremism and terrorism, and that's more relevant now than ever, and I continue to work on that. And the other thing I now work on, I'm a year in, I've started a fellowship on empathetic leadership,

where I work with politicians who are still out there, still in there, working in politics around the world, who believe in the importance of kindness and empathy. And I believe in that as a value that's not just a trait of woman, but one that we should amplify and support amongst those leaders who are using it and living it. And I'm so encouraged they are in senior positions. And I hope by creating a network of these individuals, we'll have more people who are in power, who are focused on bringing back to politics what I think ultimately people are seeking.

Jacinda Ardern and her book, it is, her memoir is called A Different Kind of Power. We'd welcome all of your thoughts about that interview. Jacinda was rushing off to France to do her next interview that day, still part of a very busy working person's life. Did she look, I don't know, relieved of great responsibility? She did look very well. She looked very, very well indeed. And I think she obviously feels that she's earned the right to stand back a bit and you know continue in politics from a kind of considered place on the sidelines. So it'll be interesting to see what impact she has and makes.

I'm sure it'll be, she'll do something won't she? Yes, but I think that point about a coalition of people against the war, I mean I know that there are lots of different groups that you can join if you want to try and stand up to the aggression that's dominating the world at the moment. It's just a truth isn't it, that if everybody did get together, if you walk down the street and ask just the very simple question, would you like to bit war in certain parts of the world? So few people would say yes. The amount of grief being caused across the world at the moment that will last for generations. You know, when we were talking about the commemorations of the Second World War and D-Day and all of those things that we've had recently in

this country, the personal stories that we hear about the lives they've lost reverberate around generations in families. So if you look at their loss of life at the moment, OMG. Yeah, and there is something particularly galling about Donald Trump and his ludicrous military parade at the weekend when he dodged the draft. I mean, how, it's just preposterous. How dare he do that whole bloody else. But do you think that's why quite a lot of the personnel looked nonchalant and didn't kind of...

Well, I know there's a theory they just weren't trying. Yeah, didn't goose step in front of their leader. Yeah. Well, let's go with that, shall we? You can always let us know what you think. Let us know what you think about anything. I mean, we actually mean anything, don shall we? You can always let us know what you think. Let us know what you think about anything. I mean we actually mean anything don't we? We do and I'll be particularly interested to hear if you've breastfed in a difficult place as well because that's obviously one of the things that Jacinda Ardern talks about in her book. It's a natural part of life and you know if you're breastfeeding or you're pumping out milk that's you're doing it for a reason. I

did it on the London Eye. Did you do it on the London Eye? Not desperately successfully, but I did do it. That's interesting. Thank you. More of Air with Jane and Fee. Thank you. If you'd like to hear us do this live, and we do do it live, every day, Monday to Thursday, 2 till 4 on Times Radio. The jeopardy is off the scale and if you listen to this you'll understand exactly why that's the case. So you can get the radio online on DAB or on the free Times Radio app. Off Air is produced by Eve Salisbury and the executive producer is Rosie Cutler. When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most? When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't

so famous without the grainy mustard, when the barbecue's lit but there's nothing to grill, when the in-laws decide that actually they will stay for dinner. Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer. So download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes. Plus enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

Service fees, exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver.